9:50 pm November 25, 2012, by David O'Brien
December 4th, 201210:51 am
but would rather go with “internal options”
I sure hope this isn’t the case.. if so, this is an epic fail.
Not going to be surprised at all if come opening day Gattis is in LF. It would be a real shame to not give him his shot and he proves to be the real deal. If he doesn’t, then Wren will have to go to Plan B or C.
December 4th, 201210:52 am
im still wishing for a deal for J Upton.that would be fun.
I mean, the Nationals won friggin 98 games last year… and they may be getting better, especially if they add a pitcher. Their staff is much better than ours and they’re considering adding another pitcher! We need to catch up.
December 4th, 201210:53 am
Man, I wish, but that would lead the majors, by a wide margin. I don’t believe there was a NL team to score 800 last year. – ncscoots
You are correct, the Cardinals led the NL with 765 runs scored. In the AL, the Rangers (88) and the
Yankees (804) were the only two teams above 800.
December 4th, 201210:54 am
I wouldn’t mind if the Braves had every soft-tossing lefty on this team just so the offense doesn’t have to face them
Haha, even so, I’d rather not. We’ve had enough of them, we need hard-throwing, strikeout guys. Especially in the playoffs
December 4th, 201210:55 am
TOBF is still jonesing for a pitcher. I would say that it is, at least, unlikely….unless we trade away a bunch of what we’ve got…which is alxo unlikely.
December 4th, 201210:56 am
And why exactly, would the Cardinals want to trade a stud prospect with six years of control left for a reliever with only this year left before Free Agency?
You keep pounding on the fact that this is the best time to trade EOF when his value is at it’s highest, yet if you actually look at it realistically, LAST year would have been that time – EOF had just finsihed posting the LOWEST ERA EVER for a pitcher with that many innings and had TWO years of control left. And when you couple that with the fact that the Braves had to eat $10 million to save $5 mil and EOF made half that amount on his own, why didn’t they trade him then?
Could it be because they view him as more valuable than you seem to?
If Atlanta does decide to stand pat, which I doubt they will, we will be far away behind both the Nats and Phils. If nothing else, we should finish ahead of the Marlins at least.
December 4th, 201210:57 am
Can’t catch up to the Nationals when you’ve got a GM who won’t trade from the lone surplus the organization possesses.
Who knows? Come August we might be singing Wren’s praises for not trading away any pitching… you never know who is going to blow out an elbow or lose the feel for throwing strikes.
Then again, we might be calling for his head as the Gwinnett team leads their league in all pitching categories and the MLB team is near the bottom of the league in offensive production.
You just never know. I’m hopeful for a new LF or 3B, but I’m not willing to bet a dollar that it’ll happen.
December 4th, 201210:59 am
JoeFan- Not going to be surprised at all if come opening day Gattis is in LF.
Gattis, I believe, needs more time in the minors. His experience to date in LF is rather limited.
December 4th, 201211:00 am
what’s your take going to be on those 98 win Nationals if they trade Morse and re-sign Laroche?
I thought I submitted a response to this, but I don’t see it. If I get a dupe, I apologize in advance.
I think they are better with LaRoche than Morse. They get Ramos back, which is a plus. Span makes their defense better. They’ll be good. Have to see how the pitching holds up, since they set the bar pretty high last year. Can they do that over more than one season? Dunno.
In any event, 98 wins is a bunch. They could be a better team in 2013, and still win fewer games. Just the nature of the game.
December 4th, 201211:01 am
Interesting – Ruben Amaro, JR. was on XM Home Plate this morning and said that they “hoped Roy Halladay was 85-90% this season”.
December 4th, 201211:05 am
Sources: Dan Haren in agreement with #Nationals, one year, $13M. Pending physical.
December 4th, 201211:06 am
Ken Rosenthal @Ken_Rosenthal
Sources: Dan Haren in agreement with #Nationals, one year, $13M. Pending physical.
They have a great rotation, making it better. Our rotation is decent, and we’re standing pat. Sigh…
December 4th, 201211:07 am
Nationals sign Dan Haren. One year, $13 million.
Nationals making a great rotation that much stronger with Dan Haren as a back of the rotation option.
Yeah, our rotation is decent – but our Bullpen is the best.
December 4th, 201211:08 am
Dan Haren doesnt scare me anymore
Strasburg, Gonzalez, Zimmerman, Haren, Detweiler
And folks said that even Haren (and not Greinke) was unnecessary for us
The Nats OWN this division and will for years to come.
The Phils are right on their heels.
Deal with it.
Strasburg, Zimmermann, Gonzalez, Haren, and Detwiler.
Yikes is right.
And the scary thing about the Nats is —- they’re not done yet!
Much rather the Nats get Haren than Greinke or Shields
December 4th, 201211:09 am
Well that takes them out of the Grienke sweepstakes. Much rather face Haren than Grienke
Did someone say we were resigning Jorge Campillo? OMG.
Haren’s going to replace Edwin Jackson, which is basically the same production. No gain there.
December 4th, 201211:10 am
They have a great rotation, making it better.
I don’t know that subbing Dan Haren for Edwin Jackson is much more than an incremental upgrade.
AT – What if….
Gattis has an OBP of .300+ and 30 HR…and/or
Francisco cuts down on his SO, hits .275, with 30 HRs….and/or
Teheran figures it out, and pitches at 95+ and great control…
Would “standing pat” be a “huge fail”? ???
What if any of those guys does that for another team, and one of your “targets” turns out to be a huge fail for US?
Nationals will have around $80 in guaranteed contracts after that signing. Still have room to sign LaRoche, especially if they shop Morse.
Bullpen is the best, but the Nats is pretty good as well. Not as if our offense is elite to overcome the rotation. Bullpen isn’t much help if the starters leave you trailing…. Nats rotation is A+, ours is a B. I’d give them a B+ on their pen, ours is A+ (and still would be if we lost EOF). Offenses are both about the same, B-… defense is good for both teams.
Nats are still ahead of us.
December 4th, 201211:11 am
The signing of Haren now puts the Nats in the $100 million club
December 4th, 201211:12 am
This signing by the Nats would only increase our need to acquire more offense.
I was thinking that they were going to fill that spot with a John Lannan type. Never thought they viewed the rotation as something they needed to add to by signing the likes of Dan Haren.
December 4th, 201211:14 am
I think more highly of Haren than EJax… better pitcher over his career, he’ll produce when healthy. Was a very good pitcher in 2010-11. Nicer periphs.
December 4th, 201211:16 am
raleighbravefan, I’d just say that your “what ifs” carry much more risk and I mean a lot more risk than us actually signing or trading for someone that’s actually produced on this level.
So yes, I’m still leaning as an EPIC FAIL if we stand pat.
Dan Haren, geez, you people act like he is the second coming of Cy Young. He was 12-13 with a 4.33 ERA this year. Edwin Jacksons ERA was below that at 4.03. They didnt gain anything.
December 4th, 201211:17 am
Now, if they still get Greinke, then you should be worried
Although unproven, I still think that the Braves have an adequate (defensively) left fielder in house in Uggla. Prado’s natural position is second and the real question mark defensively might be at third. If you think about it, the Braves do have some options. They could look for an elite LF, 2nd baseman or 3rd baseman. Just have to shuffle some guys around and not hurt defense for ground ball pitchers. That might just be Hudson now. If the Braves are just looking for that big bat, they do have some options.
December 4th, 201211:18 am
It’s not that Haren is a huge upgrade to Jackson, I just never thought they would fill that last spot in the rotation with a player of that quality.
They are a little light in the pen, though. Presently do not have a LH reliever and that’s pretty important in this division.
TOBF I mean, the Nationals won friggin 98 games last year… and they may be getting better,
or maybe not. maybe gonzalez reverts to his old self and starts walking 4 or 5 per 9. maybe they dont resign laroche, or maybe they do and he has a bad year. maybe morse’s magic runs out, or they trade him and get bourn, who begins his decline.
winning 98 games isnt easy, even if you bring the same team back.
December 4th, 201211:19 am
I’d rather see the team try to make something big happen and fail than not try and do anything at all.
Signing Upton fits this a bit… he’s risky, but the upside is worth taking the chance. He may hit .220 with 10 HR and be viewed as an epic fail… but he might hit .300 with 35 HR. The upside is that of a difference-maker, and this team needs guys like that, guys who can get them over the play-in game hump.
I’d view Myers, Olt, etc in a similar way. Trading a known quantity for an unknown quantity is totally risky, to the point of almost being foolish. If it doesn’t work, it could cost people their jobs. If it does work, though, you’ve got the most powerful, dynamic offense in the NL.
Sometimes you gotta take those chances, cross your fingers and toes, and hope for the best. If it fails, you move on… but if you never try, you’ll never know. And that, to me, is the definition of an epic fail.
Haren’s projected to produce a 3.47 ERA next year…
December 4th, 201211:20 am
Nats add to an already solid staff….Braves add BJ Upton and his .298 OBP. Sounds about right.
December 4th, 201211:21 am
And if we had signed Dan Haren,, everyone would be screaming, “Why????”
It’s only December the 4th folks.
AT – I still expect a significant move… and I concur that standing pat has significant risks, just as any move does, to some degree.I’m just saying that I would rather stand pat, than to make a marginal, expensive move. And the “other than marginal” options are shrinking fast.
December 4th, 201211:22 am
And we know how accurate projections are
Nationals lost all three of their LH relievers – Burnett, Gorzelanny and Gonzalez. Right now, Storen, Clippard, Stammen, Rodriguez, and Mattheus are in the pen.
December 4th, 201211:23 am
TOBF Does a matchup of Minor vs Gio really look good for us?
thats not a matchup that makes me shake in my boots. i guess maybe i have more fiath in our team than some.
December 4th, 201211:24 am
Yea, why not Greinke… then when I see he’s expected to make 25mil a year, I’ll say okay. I’d have liked Haren here.
I see less competition from the Marlins and Mets within the division so the Braves, Phillies and Nationals might all add to their win totals.
December 4th, 201211:25 am
And Haren would replace whom in the rotation?
December 4th, 201211:26 am
DS1 – Quit being so rational, my friend. Only alarmism is allowed here.
December 4th, 201211:28 am
Hanson (or Maholm). Just like Greinke would have.
December 4th, 201211:30 am
December 4th, 2012
No way that the Braves lose Chipper, Bourn, and McCann for a bit and have the most money to spend in years and will only sign one major player.
I would agree, if only I could find the major player he signed… major and premium should be interchangeable, right? Laird, Upton, Janish…. yea, no premium players there.
I can’t wait until the season and Upton proves you wrong. Hey how about having the glass half full instead of half empty?
Here we go: The sky is falling! The Nats signed Dan “Cy Young” Haren with a bad back and a 4.50 ERA. Hey maybe Wren will react like some Braves fans on here and trade Simmons for Upton now?
raleighbravefan, yeah and that’s me too. I do expect them to make another significant move. But to me if they just decided to stay with what they have and wait til ST to sort through it.. this to me would be an extremely huge mistake.
December 4th, 201211:32 am
Well, at least so far THIS offseason we haven’t heard any prediction s of the Braves coming in fifth in the division or only winning 78 games. Sheesh. Buncha Drama Queens.
JIM BOWDEN @JimBowdenESPNxm
Nationals do exceptional job in signing Haren to one-year contract..his back issues are manageable and he’s a definite up-grade from Jackson
Yeah, he and EJax aren’t close
December 4th, 201211:34 am
arkansas transplant If Atlanta does decide to stand pat, which I doubt they will, we will be far away behind both the Nats and Phils
um…the phillies are currently a mess, outside of thier starting pitching.
December 4th, 201211:35 am
Lee took less to go to the Phillies… I hope Wren at least gives Greinke a look and a competitive offer. We need him.
bravepack Laird, Upton, Janish…. yea, no premium players there.
love him or hate him, Upton was among the top free agents available this winter. he was a premium player in this market, and the braves got him.
December 4th, 201211:37 am
Are you going to rely on Jim Bowden’s assessment, or mine?
AT – I totally respect your opinion on this, and our opinions aren’t all that far apart. Difference is mainly in what we consider a viable acquisition vs the cost, which is quite subjective.
December 4th, 201211:38 am
Not trying to be a butt, but FW pretty much stood pat last season and the Braves made the playoffs. They should have won vs the Cardinals but a few defensive miscues sent them home.
I’m not saying he should stand pat with what he has, he should not. I liked the idea of Span for LF but that didn’t work out. I don’t know who I like at the moment, but I’ll probably be okay with whomever FW gets as long as he’s not another low OBP, high K player.
December 4th, 201211:40 am
Watching Hot Stove….
’sup with Clint Hurdle’s hair???
Are you going to rely on Jim Bowden’s assessment, or mine?
Ha. Mine, I don’t see them being that close. He’s a #2-3 when healthy, EJax is really a 4 to me.
Well, at least so far THIS offseason we haven’t heard any prediction s of the Braves coming in fifth in the division or only winning 78 games. Sheesh. Buncha Drama Queens. – Lew
If the Braves don’t do something quick, they’ll be lucky to come close to 78 wins … Just kidding Lew, have a nice day!
If Upton was not a “premium player” in this market, who is, besides Josh Hamilton? (Stanton is UNAVAILABLE)
December 4th, 201211:42 am
Greinke and Hamilton were the only premium players to me… everyone else was 2nd tier. The market is quite weak.
December 4th, 201211:43 am
I think Jackson is more of a #3 and that may be where Haren is now at in this point of his career. Haren was a very, very good starter before this season. Strong #2 starter.
December 4th, 201211:44 am
TOBF – Take a deep breath, my young friend. By the way, it actually may not be possible for us to consistantly compete with the Nats and Dodgers. (don’t dispare… the goal is to make the post season, where every team has a chance).
You guys really think the Phillthies are that good? They lost all their outfielders, Utley and Howard are another year older, BP is not that good, Halladay is a shell of his former self and even when he was right the Braves still hit him well, and the only guy in that rotation that scares me is Hamels now. I’m not worried about the Phillthies…at all.
tony – Nah, 80 wins at least.
December 4th, 201211:46 am
BravePack – Something we CAN agree on….Phillies are not nearly the threat they were just a couple of seasons ago.
December 4th, 201211:47 am
DAP I was quoting TOBF and his hate for Upton. I love the Bossman signing and am happy he is on the Braves. I think he is going to have a breakout season hitting somewhere in front of or behind some combination of Heyward and Freeman. Now we need Wren to get his brother without giving up Simba or go get Gordon from KC.
December 4th, 201211:48 am
Brave Pack – Amaro on XM this morning “hoping Halladay is 85-90%”. They also lost Ruiz for 25 games for taking amphetamines.
I’m not so sure the Phillies have what it takes to win a division anymore.
yeah, the phillies need help. their best outfielder currently is dominic brown. their best hitter has been suspended.
December 4th, 201211:50 am
Lew – I agree…Phjillies won’t compete with Nats, and may not compete with us, either.
Gotta go for a while.
Now we need Wren to get his brother without giving up Simba or go get Gordon from KC.
The more I’ve thought about it, the more I lean towards Choo, instead.
Dear Washington Nationals: please keep signing pitchers with back issues to large contracts. Thanks in advance.
December 4th, 201211:51 am
I’m not seeing Haren viewed as anythiong more than iffy at this point. A one year deal in this market? If they thought he was a sure thing, he would have gotten three years at the very least and he would have waited on a better deal.
December 4th, 201211:54 am
I lean towards Choo
for Teheran, straight up!
Haren is a big health risk, plus $13 mil ain’t cheap. It could turn out great for Nats or could backfire but probably worth the risk for them. But come on people, its not like the balance of power has just shifted and Wren has to go do something crazy.
I have been actually wondering if Wren has been talking to Rays about any of their starters, there are some intriguing possibilities there, although I am sure the prices are high (ha ha, get it)
It’s funny how everyone (but me) wrote off the Phillies last season, then were amazed to look up and see the Phillies closing in on the WC down the stretch.
With their pitching you can never count them out.
I wouldn’t mind a Choo signing but hate that the Braves give up prospects for 1 year of Choo. He would be my plan C unless Wren has someone else up his sleeve that we haven’t heard about, which knowing him he probably does.
December 4th, 201211:55 am
I can’t really consider a one-year to be a “large contract”. It’s a reasonable risk on a pitcher of his caliber and health history. A placeholder until they see how their minor league pitching (and they have some) develops.
December 4th, 201211:56 am
Efrim – you had commented on Nats’ guaranteed contracts – here’s where they stand in total, according to their beat writer:
Adam Kilgore @AdamKilgoreWP
By my count, including arbitration estimates, the Nats have about $97 million dedicated to 2013 payroll.
December 4th, 201211:57 am
The Phillies won 81 games. Their being in contention so long is a reflection of having 5 playoffs spots in a 16 team league.
ahmed and teheran for olt
I wouldn’t mind a Choo signing but hate that the Braves give up prospects for 1 year of Choo.
The prospects that the Braves would give up for a guy in his walk year aren’t going to make you lose any sleep over their loss.
Haren in an interesting situation. He was almost traded to the Cubs but the Cubs back out for whatever reason. I’ve read it was his health, and I read it was because the two sides couldn’t agree on how much money will come the Cubs way.
Then his $15.5M option isn’t pick up. A little bit later he signs for $13M which, in baseball money, it’s not that much less than his option.
I would guess the Angels knew Greinke probably wasn’t going to resign and they traded Santana. The Angels know how to spend money so I wouldn’t think releasing Haren was a financial decision. Did the Angels know something about him?
December 4th, 201212:02 pm
Are the Phillies getting better? I haven’t tracked any of their moves this off-season, but I thought they had some holes to fill.
The Nats were pretty good last year and have a solid team. I haven’t heard that they’ve improved, other than they’ll get a full year of Strasburg.
It seemed to me, last year, that the Nats didn’t have anyone really have a down year. I know they had some injuries, but it seemed that everyone performed close to their norms.
Braves had sub-par years from Uggla and McCann. They also had The Rev at SS for a good chunk of the year. If everyone plays to their baseball card, the Braves are a little better than they were last year (caveat … 5th starter could be an unpleasant surprise). But, Braves had some stinky rotation work early from Jurrjens, Delgado, and Minor. They had Livan Flippin’ Hernandez in the bullpen to start the season!
Right now, the Braves “only” have to upgrade on Schafer/Constanza in LF or Francisco at 3B and they have to find a 5th starter.
December 4th, 201212:03 pm
December 4th, 2012
I lean towards Choo
I bet that deal is in place as a back-up plan if Wren can’t find a better player with longer control.
Phillies have no OF’s and Utley and Howard are walking time bombs ready to explode and find themselves on the disabled list.
December 4th, 201212:04 pm
“It’s a reasonable risk on a pitcher of his caliber and health history.”
We agree that this is a risk. We disagree regarding the word “reasonable”. Speaking as someone who has shredded both sides of my L5S1, I know from medical consults that Tim Hudson’s spinal fusion is the only way to address the injury effectively. Otherwise, the back pain can recur at any point and be just as excruciating as the original incident. That is not reasonable risk in my estimation. If Haren gets the spinal fusion surgery, the situation changes. Until then, it’s Russian Roulette of the back.
December 4th, 201212:08 pm
phillies also saw their consecutive sellout streak slip last season. not that attendance was bad, even without the sellouts, but if they dont get better and win alot of games, attendance might continue to slip and it will affect their ability to improve the team.
December 4th, 201212:09 pm
A lot of talk on DOB’s twitter about Gordon and how he would be a perfect fit for Braves line-up and DOB agrees. I would go all in if I were Wren…perfect fit for Braves and they need pitching.
We disagree regarding the word “reasonable”.
The fact that he’s made 64 starts in the last two years, despite the lurking back problem, leads me to go with “reasonable”. The physical might disprove that, for all I know, but the recent history seems to make the contract risk-worthy.
December 4th, 201212:14 pm
And yet, somehow, they’ll be around come August/September. Maybe not/probably not in the running for the division, but they’ll be making things interesting. Their pitching is just too good for them not to be considered dangerous.
December 4th, 201212:16 pm
Haren is about as risky as banking on Medlen and Minor to be as good as they were last season for those few months. And yet, many on here think that’s a sure thing
murph With their pitching you can never count them out.
i wouldnt count them out, but i also would compare them to atlanta on december 4th and say we will finish behind them, or even chase them for any length of time. i mean c’mon. they can hardly field a MLB team at this point.
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