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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
5,183 comments Add your comment
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
1:44 am
Getting back to Hamilton… another thing going against the Braves signing him is that Wren wants a CF that can lead off.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
1:49 am
Hamilton would play LF, not CF. Would go trade route to get CF.
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
1:53 am
yeah we talked about that article , most thought it was a joke
actually I’d like to see Gattis play, and the only place that will happen is in the Ted, so if he tears up AAA to start the season, bring him up, just get him some regular playing time
kenhotlanta
November 3rd, 2012
1:54 am
I’m fresh out of gobstoppers.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
1:54 am
Like I said, I would prefer younger talent but I know trades of that type are hard to complete. I would prefer a trade for someone like Gordon who had excellent numbers as a lead off hitter and then sign someone like Upton(BJ) for CF as I see the Braves making 1 signing and 1 trade to fill the OF holes. Saying that, I would not mind Hamilton at a fair price as I know this team needs a big offensive bat with Chipper leaving as well as Bourn. I just can’t see the Royals or any team trading young talent unless the Braves overpay through trading young prospects.
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
1:56 am
Put me on your gobstoppers list, please, ken
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
1:58 am
Braves at this point have few young prospects that are all that attractive, many teams can outbid us in better prospects who are closer to the bigs
kenhotlanta
November 3rd, 2012
2:01 am
Will do, Bobby H.
NV049
November 3rd, 2012
2:01 am
Nolie how about a gamble on Grady Sizemore for CF ??.. might get him for $2 mil. could help the bench if he can stay healthy ..
Simmons could be a leadoff hitter .
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:02 am
nolie
What are your ideas for the offseason? Or what do you see happening?
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
2:09 am
I’m scared to death of Sizemore Wayne, he has played 210 games in the last 4 years. I agree that he would be cheap with a possible upside, but the guy just can not seem to stay on the field;and I’m not a guy who assumes that an injured year or two means finis, but 4 years is really pushing it I think.
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
2:12 am
no real idea how Wren will deal. There are guys I don’t think they will get(not necessarily ones I don’t like) and there are guys I don’t want, but there are so many options that we are not even aware of that he talks about every day. I simply hope he keeps his word and gets us two proven everyday players even if they are not allstars
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
2:14 am
hey, gotta go y’all.
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
2:18 am
I think the Braves have a shot at getting Chase Headley, as I said last night.
The Rockies have an interesting OF prospect named, Adam Eaton. He led the PCL in ave last year @ .381. However, with the shape the Rockies are in, they’d probably prefer to trade Dexter Fowler and go with Eaton.
And Fowler’s numbers suck away from Coors.
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
2:18 am
See ya, nolie
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
2:21 am
Sorry… got my prospects mixed up (it’s late). Eaton is a D-Backs prospect. McBride is the Rockies prospect.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:26 am
Headley would be ideal but it would take a huge overpayment which I don’t see happening.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:26 am
Hello everyone! Good article DOB! Makes my prediction go south in a hurry! I’ll be happy with who ever Wren gets, as long he he can replace Bourn if Bourn turns down the money? Still think it would make sense though to get Justin Upton, but I’ll be O.K.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:27 am
I’m excited already for a new season!
uga-brave
November 3rd, 2012
2:32 am
Nolie gobstopper, really? .
willy wonka (gene wilder) at the end when charlie (efrim) gives back wonka (dave) the everlasting gobstopper.
that was the tone i felt earlier when reading the blog.
thought DOB was going wonka.
good day sir, you get nothing.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:34 am
Ward
I’d like Upton but don’t know if the Braves have enough to give and if they did it would probably be too much.
uga-brave
November 3rd, 2012
2:34 am
DOB, do you know ramon ramos?
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:34 am
Also on Hamilton! He’s Left Handed, and agree that Braves need 2 Right Handed Bats. I think Hamilton will cost way too much.
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
2:34 am
Headley would be ideal but it would take a huge overpayment which I don’t see happening.
Dunno, BP, maybe – the Padres have a good prospect that looks like he’s ready to step in at 3rd. Rather see the Braves give up their prospects for Headley, instead of Willingham.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:37 am
BravePack – That’s the problem, but Braves have the needs Arizona want’s, but the question is how much does Arizona want?
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:38 am
The thing is Willingham hasn’t been on trade rumors or mentioned , so I don’t think he would be in play.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:39 am
I agree Bobby I feel the same way. Willingham is good offensively but up there in age and wouldn’t be ideal for this team given his defense in LF. He’s been in the AL where he can DH to get some rest. I think he might break down playing everyday in LF. Too much of a risk as he gets older and he may not produce same offensive numbers playing in the NL.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:40 am
Ward
I think Arizona would want a ton for Upton as he is still young.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:42 am
Could Wren, go after Tori Hunter? He’s done deals in the past with the Angels.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:43 am
Ward
Hamilton hits lefties pretty well. I know he has his issues but he still produces big offensive numbers which the Braves need with Chipper gone and most likely Bourn. I see the Braves doing one trade and one signing. I’ve been suggesting BJ Upton for RH CF bat and a trade like Gordon for LF.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
2:45 am
Hunter is a FA but too old in my opinion. Need to stay with young talent for this team or at least players in their prime like the Uptons, Headley, Gordon types.
ChipperisGod
November 3rd, 2012
2:47 am
I wanna see Mejia and Gattis get shots next year as bench players. Mejia needs to learn another position, I know there’s no room for him right now, but if he could learn… well… damn, the more I think about it, there is no room for him. Freddie’s at first, Prado is probably at third. Gattis assumes LF at some point although we might put someone else there for the time being. SS is taken, RF is taken, C is taken by Bethancourt in the future.
I’d still like to see him at Spring Training along with Gattis.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:48 am
I have a hard time believing some of the names mentioned. Even some of the names I like, and predict. Wren, always has gone off the board, and gotten us a player we never heard of, or wasn’t mentioned on the blog. I hope Wren, gets us what the Braves need, but he’s always full of surprises too. Other-wise the blog will go into a riot.
Bobby H
November 3rd, 2012
2:50 am
BP
I don’t think any Braves fan would object to them signing Hamilton… it’s just that he’ll probably cost way too much. You think he might give the Braves some kind of a hometown deal…?
I kinda doubt that, but I hope you’re right.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:57 am
Dvid Ortiz is expected to sign a 2 year deal with Boston. Worth 26 to 30 million dollars.
haggard
November 3rd, 2012
2:58 am
David O’Brien
Thanks for the new goods. I remember well the story on Gattis in the spring and thought then–as I do now–you would have a blast with him as an everyday source in the locker room; especially if he were to play regularly and really catch on with the fans at the Ted, (wonder whatever happened to McCann’s Cans?).
By the way, have you heard the new Jamey Johnson release, “Living For A Song”? It is special, as was his two hour interview–which included Bobby Bare along with project producers Dale Dodson and Buddy Gannon–on WSM with Eddie Stubbs, the night before the CD release.
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
2:58 am
David Ortiz will remain in Boston.
uga-brave
November 3rd, 2012
3:00 am
Haggard, GATA.
as erk used to say.
uga-brave
November 3rd, 2012
3:02 am
haggard, i miss uncle larry.
haggard
November 3rd, 2012
3:07 am
uga-brave
You know, I was thinking the same thing as I was riding along, listening to Howard’s call on the final TD. He’s a fine announcer, but I found myself wondering what Munson’s gravelly call would have sounded like. Plus, I miss his movie reviews from his Friday matinee stops at the Beechwood. I just miss him, period.
haggard
November 3rd, 2012
3:11 am
Good night, good folks
Ward
November 3rd, 2012
3:14 am
Well, all have a good one! Let’s hope Wren sticks to his guns, and fills the Braves needs. Talk tomorrow, and Peace my friends, and “Go!!!!!Braves!!!!!”
uga-brave
November 3rd, 2012
3:27 am
haggard, scott howard does a fine job,
but late larry would of said.\\
florida going left to right on your radio, the dawgs barely hanging on here in jacksonville 2nd an ten the gators come up to line right over the midddle the huge tight end is reaching for the goaline.
OH my god a fumble, a fumble AND sanders commings pounces on the ball. the gators just fumbled there world here in jacksonville.
the dawgs just dodged the biggest bullett of all time and commings is laying on it.
oh my god, the dawgs are first and ten just trying to run this thing out.
whatca got lauren?
uga-brave
November 3rd, 2012
3:34 am
haggard, the great voice would of been awesome on that call. god rest larry munson.
i hope all of is big trout fishing trips find him well.
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
3:52 am
We don’t need no stinking trades. We got our CF and LF in Shafer and Gattis.
Save your money Liberty!
Spend big for Greinke (that’s for you TOBF)!
When you’re sick, tinnitus really sucks. It never stops, dammit!
Insomnia also sucks.
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
4:00 am
Kobe and the Lakers are 0-3. For a moment in time, all is good.
Hamilton wants 7/175. That’s 25 million per. Could you get that with a yearly opt out clause for the team if he dropped off the wagon?
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
4:04 am
On Tuesday, do as they do in Chicago. Vote early, and vote often!
And for you guys not on my side of the equation, if you just skip it, I won’t tell!
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
4:07 am
WOW! I could talk politics and not offend anybody now………. nobody’s here.
But my buddy VJ always checks out my stuff to try to keep me honest………
(hey, VJ. I voted early, and cancelled out your vote buddy!)
Gonna try to sleep again. Need more drugs………….
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
4:09 am
Schafer/Prado/Heyward/El Oso Blanco/Freeman/Uggla/McCann(Ross)/Simmons
and save millions!
We could have a heckuva tailgate party with the money LM saved.
richbrave
November 3rd, 2012
5:15 am
DS1:
Someone is always lurking here dude ready to pounce on even the most innocent statements.
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
5:20 am
Some lesser known names that could be on the verge: Tyler Colvin, Nolan Reimold, Tyler Moore and Brennan Boesch.
Sleep is overrated.
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
5:22 am
richbrave
It’s been said that I don’t really say anything that is innocent.
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
5:28 am
Franklin Gutierrez. Been injured for past 2 years. Not a high OBP guy. But probably affordable in trade. Hit better than Bourn in the second half.
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
5:31 am
Eric Young Jr?
DS1
November 3rd, 2012
5:33 am
Gonna try it again………
Hello, Mr Sandman!
richbrave
November 3rd, 2012
5:45 am
SOUTH OF THE BORDER
MEXICO
HERMOSILLO ORANGES
Lead-off CF TODD CUNNINGHAM [.235 BA] 1-5, 1 R, HAT TRICK!
richbrave
November 3rd, 2012
5:46 am
DS1
Trying vainly for some peaceful rest?
richbrave
November 3rd, 2012
5:49 am
Sorry DS1, I was momentarily distracted by checking the box scores down south.
Man, our dynamic duo of EL OSO BLANCO and EL HOMBRE ERNESTO are raking in VENEZUELA this winter.
My favorite get is RF OSCAR TAVARAS of the CARDINALS currently hitting at a .395 clip, also in VENEZUELA.
richbrave
November 3rd, 2012
6:00 am
My grandson plays RF and CF both of which he’s played extensively. LF is almost foreign to him though he busted his cherry there in YANKEE Stadium back in August. He’s going to have to fill in at SS come high school when the regular there pitches. He played SS all through Junior High, but switched after severely breaking his leg in JV football [complete rupture of the patella tendon, with seven fractures of the tibia] in 8th grade. Horse-collar tackle, now illegal in the state HS leagues.
richbrave
November 3rd, 2012
6:01 am
O.K. I’m outta’ here rollin’ to BURLINGTON.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
7:32 am
Earlier, I asked Dave if the blog/interview on Gattis was (a) just some convenient hot stove filler or (b) a real signal from Wren that we should be prepared for Gattis to play LF. Dave did not reply (maybe he can’t because of off the record chat) but a more obvious explanation comes to mind:
(c) Wren is laying the foundation to make Gattis a piece of a trade package, and wants to be able to say he is dealing one of our very top prosepcts, MLB-ready, etc.
If we trade with someone for an OFer, they might be keen to re-stock their inventory of OFers with someone like Gattis. Obviously, there would be some kind of pitcher as the centerpiece of such a deal. But maybe Wren is posturing Gattis to be a significant add-on.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
7:34 am
Wife asleep. Two girls asleep. Son, off to college, obviously asleep.
Waking up pre-dawn on a Saturday morning with a hot pot of coffee. Total quiet. Wonderful.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
8:30 am
2009-2012, 950+ plate appearances, ages 21-26 during that span, with BB/K ratio better than Jason Heyward (I eliminated left handed power, those who would never be traded, etc.):
Denard Span
Ben Revere
Dexter Fowler
Chris Young
Justin Upton
Of those, with OPS better than Jason:
Justin Upton
Dexter Fowler
So, Justin Upton looks pretty good. (Sort of a convoluted way of stating the obvious, I suppose.). Fowler stinks away from Coors.
One strategy is to make a blockbuster deal for Upton, and then figure out who to get from a large group of second tier, strong fielding, CFers. That seems far more likely than Hamilton.
Gene
November 3rd, 2012
8:33 am
Very interesting article. Gattis is a great story, and I hope we see him in Atlanta.
Jeff R
November 3rd, 2012
8:34 am
Really? Honestly? Anyone honestly thinks that the Braves will make a play for Josh Hamilton?
Aside from the cost of locking up Hamilton, there’s his personal baggage. The Braves have a long track record of getting rid of troubled or disruptive personalities. Anyone recall Yunel Escobar?
Hamilton ain’t gonna happen. Go fish.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
8:37 am
Delgado > Maholm?
Efrim
November 3rd, 2012
8:38 am
uga-brave, still don’t get it…..
I do remember that, but I’m not sure how it equals our convo….
Efrim
November 3rd, 2012
8:42 am
Jerry Crasnick @jcrasnick
Santana in KC. Haren option declined. Greinke free agent. CJ Wilson elbow cleanup. Is Dean Chance too old for comeback? #Angels
Yeah, they got some work to do with that starting rotation and bullpen. Need a corner outfielder too.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
8:44 am
Delgado, Venters, Gattis for Justin Upton?
Maholm, Venters, Gattis for Justin Upton?
Are these remotely close to realistic? Or just another nutty, wishful thinking post?
74bravesjersey
November 3rd, 2012
8:48 am
DOB:VERY NICE! Nice Digs on Gattis, I’ve been called crazy, but I’ve sure been pull’n for the young Thumper for a spot since last spring, me & several other bloggers feel he can be a diamond in the rough, & boy, when I said it, the real intelligent analysts called me nuts, probably still will, hey don’t bother me none, but love for the kid to come out of nowhere & make opposin’ pitchers shutter. The Dude hits & Thumps. I’m w/ u richbrave, u too CIG! 26yrs. old(don’t matter), as long as he rakes, put em’ in.
Jeff R
November 3rd, 2012
8:49 am
Dean Chance is only 71 years old. Spry, likely. Trot him back out, I say.
74bravesjersey
November 3rd, 2012
8:52 am
Gattis has shown great discipline at the plate in every level, numbers show very low “K” ratio w/ab’s, w/this strikeout often lineup, he could bring stability w/ quality atbats. He has a clue about the strikezone, doesn’t get fooled easy, tough out. Our other sluggers could learn from his discipline.
TheOnlyBravesFan
November 3rd, 2012
9:02 am
, hates Willingham
Nope. I don’t mind him. I just wouldn’t trade Delgado/Teheran. We wouldn’t have traded those 2 last year to get him, and he’s now a year older…. on the wrong side of 30
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
9:03 am
Jeff R
Yunel was traded because he was a cancer on the clubhouse. Hamilton had issues off the field but is a good teammate big difference. I don’t mind the idea of Wren going after a big offensive bat like that if he does. I give it 50/50 and mostly likely not getting Hamilton but I wouldn’t be surprised if he did. He has never shot down the idea and usually has done so in years past with other big time FA.
old man
I would love Upton I just think the Braves have enough to give for the huge return Arizona would want. I could seriously see them asking for Prado, or Heyward and a pitcher plus a prospect. Something crazy like that.
BravePack(FreeFan)
November 3rd, 2012
9:04 am
*don’t have enough to give Arizona. Stupid iPhone.
TheOnlyBravesFan
November 3rd, 2012
9:05 am
Haren’s option declined…
If Hunter is not in the picture in 2013, Peter Bourjos will be slotted as the starter in centerfield with Vernon Wells in reserve, Shaikin tweets.
Hunter needs to go back to LAA.
Efrim
November 3rd, 2012
9:07 am
Keith Law ranked his Top 50 free agents. He ranked Victorino #29 and had this to say(he stole it from scoots!):
Victorino’s bat speed has slowed to the point where he’s best utilized as a fourth outfielder who can fill any of the three outfield spots and come off the bench as a right-handed hitter, since even in his prime he was never very good hitting from the left side.
He has an above-average arm and is still an asset on the bases despite the occasional boneheaded play — it’s almost surprising how good he is at reading pitchers’ moves when you consider how poor his instincts look at times. He’s a one-year-deal player at this point, but the lack of center-field options might encourage some team to give him two or three years to be a starter.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
9:15 am
74bravesjersey, you’re not kidding, especially for a power hitter. His BB/K ratio over his 3 minor league seasons:
2010 .136 (awful)
2011 .471 (very good)
2012 .721 (unbelievably almost off the charts good)
At his highest classification last year, AA, he was .690. I see only 4 MLB players who exceeded that in 2012. His K% was only 13.7%, which Fangraphs says is somewhere between “above average” and “great.” Again, for a power hitter, these numbers mean even more.
Another thing: his quick improvement from 2010 to 2012 shows that at his age, and with his maturity, we can expect him to progress through classifications more quickly, up to his highest level of capability. We can only hope that will be the majors.
I would still package him in a deal for Justin Upton.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
9:27 am
Gattis, 2012, 1 HR per 15 ABs, .995 OPS.
And with plate discipline. Very strong.
Efrim
November 3rd, 2012
9:28 am
Mark Bowman @mlbbowman
The Braves have added 1B Ernesto Mejia and RHP Juan Jaime to their 40-man roster.
Jaime is an underrated prospect. Older, but after injuries in 2010 and 2011 he can still touch 100mph. Future bullpen arm, for sure.
Efrim
November 3rd, 2012
9:29 am
Do the Braves really only have 30 players on their 40-man?
TheOnlyBravesFan
November 3rd, 2012
9:34 am
Mejia! Could be a good bench choice.
Mark Bowman @mlbbowman
The Braves have added 1B Ernesto Mejia and RHP Juan Jaime to their 40-man roster.
Jimmy
November 3rd, 2012
9:38 am
That was another “jimmy” yesterday. I haven’t posted in several days.
Just dropped in to get caught up.
A great Gattis blog.
CB
November 3rd, 2012
9:42 am
Jimmy,we knew it wasn’t you. That guy was hostile!
Lew
November 3rd, 2012
9:45 am
old man – They aren’t going to trade either Maholm or the back end of our bullpen.
CB
November 3rd, 2012
9:47 am
Juan Jaime with a FB that touches 100, missed some time with TJ surgery.
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
10:15 am
glad to hear that Jimmy. I figgered too
nolie
November 3rd, 2012
10:16 am
Mejia finally makes the 40 man squad, must be at least considering that he might help out this season
Powderfinger
November 3rd, 2012
10:34 am
Top o’ the mornin’ to ye all. I noticed someone mentioned Venters earlier as trade bait. Absofreakinlutely not. Please. Mark my words. If we trade him, Kimbrel will blow out his elbow early in the season. That’s the way our luck goes…
Bring the lumber
November 3rd, 2012
10:44 am
Hanson, Delgado, Gattis, Cunningham for Upton and sign CF??? I think J Upton is just a perfect fit for the Braves.
ncgary
November 3rd, 2012
10:50 am
i feel good do do doot
do do doot
so good
dooyt doot dooot doooooot
so good
lol
hot stove baseball
its almost as fun as the real season
or at least the last few seasons
ncgary
November 3rd, 2012
10:52 am
id still like to see liberty cough up a little more pocket change
up the payroll to around 115 million,
they’d probably draw 3 million if it were spent wisely
ncgary
November 3rd, 2012
10:54 am
bring back nuxie they still cant hit his knuckler
Brave New World
November 3rd, 2012
11:00 am
Forget Josh Hamilton. We do not need this over-priced, injury and strike out-prone, head case. Yes, he’s very talented, but let some other team deal with him. GO BRAVES!
old man
November 3rd, 2012
11:00 am
Lew, not trying to be a smartazz, but how are they going to get two quality OFers if not at least one by trade? You have to give quality to get quality. Maholm has the added bonus of providing some salary swap (9.9M versus 6.5M in 2013), Which would leave you wide open for FAs, like a CF or another pitcher.
AZ needs pitching. We had the best bullpen in MLB last year, so we can spare a quality bullpen arm.
My gut tells me Maholm/Delgado + Venters + Gattis is not enough to get Upton. Any thoughts on what it would take? BravePak said AZ would want something “crazy” like “Prado, or Heyward and a pitcher plus a prospect.” The difference between that and what I have thrown out it is the value of Prado or Heyward versus Maholm or Delgado. Heyward is nuts, but the value of Prado versus Maholm or Delgado is more in the same universe. I absolutely would never deal Prado, but I wonder if a deal for Upton is not more within our reach than you might think at first blush.
I would do Maholm or Delgado, Venters, and Gattis in a heartbeat. Any other ideas of (a) what would be viable from the Braves point of view, or (b) what AZ’s bottom line would be in terms of players from us?
I’m dwelling on Upton because he seems to be exactly what we need for LF.
old man
November 3rd, 2012
11:06 am
nolie:
I know you are sick of the Bourjos talk. But what would you do if you had to pick one and only one: start Gattis in LF on opening day, or start Bourjos in CF on opening day?
I’m trying to gauge exactly how much you dislike Bourjos.
Bring the lumber
November 3rd, 2012
11:11 am
old man I liked Bourjos but now that Hunter is not going to be signed by the Halos Bourjos is going to be a starter in LA and not on the trade block. I think also for Upton I would give up Any two of Hanson, Maholm /Teharan, Delgado and any two postion prospects.
brian
November 3rd, 2012
11:15 am
With tori hunter gone, I would be surprised to see the Angels deal Boujos now.
DAM
November 3rd, 2012
11:20 am
I’m not necessarily a fan of overpaying for a guy like Hamilton, but if we were ever to go get a guy like that, this is the time because we’ll have the money to do it. We’d have to fill the other hole (likely LF) internally more than likely to ensure that the salary for the LF stays low. Go with an outfield of Gattis, Hamilton, and Heyward, and then shift Prado to 3B. I also think we’d be so lefty-heavy that we would almost have to go with Gattis in LF just to have another RH bat in there.
Again, I don’t think it’s likely for a number of reasons and I’m not even sure that I’d want it to happen because of all the questions surrounding Hamilton, but I certainly don’t think it’s outside the realm of possibility.
brian
November 3rd, 2012
11:22 am
I can only imagine how many different scenarios wren is prepared for. He has to fill CF, LF, and 3B with Prado likely taking 3B or less likely LF. He will see what the market is looking like and go for the biggest impact player 1st. Once that position is set he will work to fill the other places.
Whether it is willingham in LF, Headley at 3B, or pagan inCF, I could see them adding a big name first then going from there