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6,463 comments Add your comment
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
10:42 am
Hopefully that was Frank Wren at his dumbest, and we never see that again.
A young pitcher will be traded this offseason, so prepare yourself for it.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
10:46 am
That’s a lot of playing for Gattis… spring training starts the next month. If he performs really well though, he may not even need AAA.
Reasonable price point for Willingham? Sure… not Delgado/Teheran. We weren’t trading them for him last year… he wasn’t worth it. Even with him coming off of a career year, he’s turning 34. Still not worth it.
jeffrey d
October 24th, 2012
10:47 am
A young pitcher will be traded this offseason, so prepare yourself for it.
That’s great….I’m not a big prospect hoarder (you’ve gotta give to get) I just hope it’s equal in value.
And not Ryan “I suck” Dempster
flange1
October 24th, 2012
10:49 am
Murph,
I like your idea of going all in for a young player.
I agree.
I would also like for him to spend money on al older guy as well for 2013.
Like Tori Hunter. Offer him 14 million for 1 year with a 9 million option.
Then trade for a young stud.
Fill CF with a lower priced guy that is defensively strong that can hit 8th.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
10:49 am
I don’t mind a young pitcher being traded. I just want the trade to be reasonable on our side… no ridiculous overpays.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
10:49 am
I’m not just talking about Willingham… could be anyone. I have a real fear that we’re going to end up with a couple of guys who are on the downswing of their career, guys who maybe put together a couple of all-star seasons 5 or 10 years ago but now are just playing out their remaining days.
I can’t even point to a specific move that Wren has executed in the past that is leading to these fears… it’s just a scary premonition I’ve had in the back of my head for the last week or so.
Like I said earlier, I know that it’s super risky and would likely cost players beyond what the Braves have to offer, but I really wish Wren would chase Myers or Olt, or some similar power-hitting prospect. I’m sure chances are slim to none, but that’s my Christmas list. Just like when I asked for the Power Wheels Jeep 5 years in a row and never got it, I’m sure I’m setting myself up for disappointment again, though.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
10:53 am
I’m not a prospect hoarder… but when you trade them, the value needs to be fairly close to equal. Especially since we are a mid-market team. Teheran or Delgado+ for 34 yr old Willingham is not fair in my opinion
Fill CF with a lower priced guy that is defensively strong that can hit 8th.
Like the way you think. Bourjos fits that perfectly. Frank however, wants his CF to lead off…
David O'Brien
October 24th, 2012
10:54 am
Reasonable price point for Willingham? Sure… not Delgado/Teheran. We weren’t trading them for him last year… he wasn’t worth it. Even with him coming off of a career year, he’s turning 34. Still not worth it. TheOnlyBravesFan
Other teams will offer plenty, and Twins have no reason to accept anything less than a top prospect and/or young impact player for a hitter who’s put up the kind of numbers that Willingham has the past seasons AND — this is important — is owed just $7 million each of the next two seasons. They have no reason to trade him if they can’t get what they want.
jeffrey d
October 24th, 2012
10:57 am
Frank however, wants his CF to lead off…
When did he say that?
jeffrey d
October 24th, 2012
10:58 am
Wasn’t Willingham a FA last offseason?
ncscoots
October 24th, 2012
10:58 am
Other teams will offer plenty, and Twins have no reason to accept anything less than a top prospect and/or young impact player for a hitter who’s put up the kind of numbers that Willingham has the past seasons
I believe you’ll have to say that more than once, since that reality hasn’t seemed to sink in around here. Willingham seems to be viewed as a scrub by some.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
10:59 am
Twins have no reason to accept anything less than a top prospect and/or young impact player for a hitter who’s put up the kind of numbers that Willingham has the past seasons AND — this is important — is owed just $7 million each of the next two seasons. They have no reason to trade him if they can’t get what they want.
Of course. They don’t need to trade Josh if they can’t get an impact player/prospect back. He’s coming off of a career year, they should expect no less. But, it still doesn’t mean the Braves should pay that ridiculously high price.
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:01 am
I’m not a prospect hoarder… but when you trade them, the value needs to be fairly close to equal. Especially since we are a mid-market team. Teheran or Delgado+ for 34 yr old Willingham is not fair in my opinion
Have you paid attention to the history of trades made in this sport?
David O'Brien
October 24th, 2012
11:02 am
Wasn’t Willingham a FA last offseason? — jeffrey d
Yes. He signed three-year, $21 million deal with Twins. Got some security. But man, if he’d signed a one-year deal and been a free agent again this winter, he’d have gotten a nice deal worth a whole lot more than $7 million each of the next two seasons.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:02 am
Wasn’t Willingham a FA last offseason?
Yep… Braves didn’t want him. We could have traded for him last year w/ Oakland. Didn’t get him, and I bet it wouldn’t have costed Delgado/Teheran + for him.
When did he say that?
He appears to mean that… “We’ve got to determine what we do in center field, and that kind of couples with leadoff. Center field/leadoff. “- Frank Wren
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:03 am
Are there any indications that the Twins would even listen to offers on Willingham? He’s a great performer who is cheap… seems to be exactly what they need as they try to improve on a horrible 2012 campaign.
They have said that they are looking to add 3 SP… they could easily add 3 decent SP via free agency and trades for guys like Span or Revere while keeping Willingham, arguably their best player from last season.
This blog seems to be fixated on him even though there have been zero indications that he’s even available.
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:04 am
But, it still doesn’t mean the Braves should pay that ridiculously high price.
You want Wren to turn water into wine, right? Or you don’t have an understanding of what this team really needs.
A platoon of Seth Smith and Reed Johnson isn’t going to get it done in LF. Especially if you want some automatic out like Peter Boujos to play CF on an everday basis. You’ll need a banger in the middle and those guys cost big in prospects or money. And tho ones in their prime, like you have described, cost more than just Randall Delgado.
And no, please don’t bring up the Mike Minor and Randall Delgado for 1.5 years of Hunter Pence thing. It makes your judgement look even worse.
Carl Farvman
October 24th, 2012
11:04 am
“I am rooting for Tigers all the way, but I want it to be Tigers/Giants WS, just to get back at Cardinals ”
What? What did they do other than beat the Braves by playing better than the Braves. Weird stuff. And Molina gave an honest and accurate assessment. Isn’t that refreshing given the climate of PC everywhere we turn? Valentine saying that Ortiz quit? Isn’t that refreshing? It’s honest and he said it. Man,I long for days gone by when you actually survive by answering a question.
Gary O.
October 24th, 2012
11:05 am
Efrim,
“As future Hall of Famer Chipper Jones once told me, power pitchers win in the postseason. The Tigers have the two best in this series.” – Jim Bowden
I actually agree with Jim on something. Simply amazing..
Technically…you’re agreeing with Chipper Jones
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:06 am
Are there any indications that the Twins would even listen to offers on Willingham?
Everyone but Mauer, apparently.
I would be trying to deal Span and Morneau if I were them.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:10 am
2.5 years of Pence… for a player in his prime. .280 hitter, .480 SLG, over 800 OPS. He was/is more likely to improve on those numbers than Willingham at 34.
Bourjos isn’t really an automatic out either. Again, he’s not my first choice. But he is an option, and wouldn’t be terrible.
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:10 am
Can we get some of the Twins position player prospects back in a deal? They are pretty loaded on that side of the ball – Oswaldo Arcia, Aaron Hicks, Miguel Sano, Eddie Rosario, Travis Harrison, Max Kepler(German born outfielder). I’d like to see that sort of a framework and I’d pay a bit more in pitching prospects to get one of those players back.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:12 am
Span would be very high on my list for CF.
Guy hit over .300 vs lefties last season, actually hit better in the 2nd half than he did the 1st, walks almost as many times as he strikes out, has speed, hits lots of doubles, etc.
Under team control for the next 3 years ($4.75mil, $6.5mil, $9mil team option).
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:12 am
Bourjos isn’t really an automatic out either. Again, he’s not my first choice. But he is an option, and wouldn’t be terrible.
Your definition of “automatic out” is different from mine.
jeffrey d
October 24th, 2012
11:13 am
Can we get some of the Twins position player prospects back in a deal?
That doesn’t happen very much, does it? When teams trade top prospects? I know there was Hamilton for Volquez
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:13 am
The only problem with targeting players like Myers is that their clubs don’t want to trade them. Why would they? They’re close to MLB ready and project to be excellent players. Why would they want more prospects for them? Would we have anyone of equal value that’s MLB ready that we couldn’t use ourselves?
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:13 am
Let’s trade Teheran, Delgado, Gilmartin, and some mid level prospects and get both Willingham and Span… sounds great. Very fair for us. We’ll have our masher, CF/leadoff. We have other pitching depth. We’ll be fine.
RC
October 24th, 2012
11:15 am
Valentine saying that Ortiz quit? Isn’t that refreshing? It’s honest and he said it.
Seems that Valentine does a great job of being “honest” when it’s someone else who did something wrong.
It’d be a hell of a lot more “refreshing” if Valentine came out and said, “I made a ton of mistakes this year. I lost the clubhouse early by criticizing the team leaders unnecessarily, and trying to force everyone else to adapt to my style instead of of working to build trusting relationships with my players. I was arrogant and cocky, and the team suffered as a result. The team had every right to fire me after the way the season played out.”
Now THAT would be honest and refreshing. But something tells me that good ole Bobby V won’t be making an admission like that anytime soon. Much easier to throw grenades on your way out the door.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:18 am
The only problem with targeting players like Myers is that their clubs don’t want to trade them. Why would they?
Only real reason is if they’re blocked by someone. Myers is less blocked than Olt is (Beltre signed through 2016), but with the DH, I guess you can’t really say any prospect in the AL is blocked completely like they are in the NL.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:18 am
Trade Teheran, Delgado and Gilmartin and we’ll still have pitching depth? Seriously? Depth that’s actually close to being ready? Where? And you want Hanson gone, too?
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:18 am
Let’s trade Teheran, Delgado, Gilmartin, and some mid level prospects and get both Willingham and Span… sounds great. Very fair for us. We’ll have our masher, CF/leadoff. We have other pitching depth. We’ll be fine.
You’re being ridiculous. No one said to overpay like that. You just have way too much value placed on a few of our young pitchers. I believe you said you wouldn’t trade Sean Gilmartin for Josh Willingham – that is insanity to the highest degree.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:18 am
The way I look at it, Bourjos hit .271/.327/.438/.765 116 OPS+ when he started every day in 2011. Sure the OBP could be better, but he was a 24 yr old. This year was his chance to break out/ improve on that year. Unfortunately, he got hurt, and ended up losing his spot to the beast, Mike Trout. He started 49 games this year. I’m of the opinion that he could get closer to those 2011 numbers. He’d be a cheap get too.
A nice scouting report on Borjous was provided by R.J. Anderson over at the Process Report:
Bourjos is a well above-average defender and runner. If his bat develops, he could become an archetypal leadoff man. The flaws in Bourjos’ game are a lack of power and iffy plate discipline. He can hit fastballs, he just expands his zone on secondary pitches too often right now. Bourjos gets high grades for character, in part because of his genes—his father presently scouts for the Padres. – The Process Report
BravePack(FreeFan)
October 24th, 2012
11:18 am
Oh boy here we go again…despite what DOB and many on here keep repeating over and over and over and over again this trade is not going to happen. If the Braves wanted Willingham he would’ve been already when they had many chances in years past. Wren has no interest in trading a good, young arm for a 34-35 year old coming off a career year when he could’ve signed him without losing a prospect. I know they’ll argue back but the fact remains how many times does a trade proposed by DOB or really anyone actually happen? About 1% of the time.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:19 am
Murph – Not to mention that KC has said time and again that they have no desire to trade Myers.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:21 am
If Bourjos is so freaking good when he starts, then why didn’t they have him stanting again this past season?
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:22 am
Say the team were able to successfully pull off a Willingham/Span trade… they’d still have around $10-11mil to spend. Not that they would, but they’d have it, just sitting there, earning taxable interest. Might as well put it to good use and go get another SP, seeing as how the trade would cost them at least one of their prized SP prospects.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:23 am
Trade Teheran, Delgado and Gilmartin and we’ll still have pitching depth? Seriously? Depth that’s actually close to being ready? Where?
Graham would be the closest pitcher we have… but yes, we wouldn’t have any good pitching depth. But apparently, Delgado+ will be too low for both Span and Willingham, so we would have to add Teheran. Gilmartin is a crap scrub apparently, so…
We don’t really want to add a CF from free agency where we lose a draft pick, and some aren’t willing to consider Bourjos. Cody Ross is “useless” vs RHP… We’ve got to pay big.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:24 am
Bourjos (age 25) – Career as a starter – .247, .298, .404
Francisco (age 25) – Career as a starter – .273, .303, .466
Yet you feel that Bourjos should be starting and Francisco shouldn’t? Confused just a bit?
CB
October 24th, 2012
11:25 am
Two things that would change my opinion of Wren:
(1) not making a qualifying offer to Bourn)
(2) not picking up McCann’s option
Better not happen or I will join the crazies.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:26 am
OnlyBraves @ 11:23 – What a crock.
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:27 am
Murph-
We agree there….Span would be my LF target…..
TOBF-
Since you seem to be so gung ho on Hunter Pence and because I think the Giants will tender him a contract even if they decide to trade him, how exactly do you think we match up with the Giants? To me it doesn’t look like we match well….granted we could build a package around Teheran who would project better in that park, but I don’t think they have any interest in prospects coming off another WS run.
RC
October 24th, 2012
11:27 am
Two things that would change my opinion of Wren:
(1) not making a qualifying offer to Bourn)
(2) not picking up McCann’s option
Better not happen or I will join the crazies.
Fairly certain that #1 won’t happen. Also seems very likely that #2 won’t happen, unless the medical records indicate that things are much worse than we’ve all been led to believe.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:28 am
If Bourjos is so freaking good when he starts, then why didn’t they have him stanting again this past season?
Because he got hurt and wasn’t as good as Trout.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:28 am
Murph – Not to mention that KC has said time and again that they have no desire to trade Myers.
I’m ok with the team going after Olt instead.
We need a 3B to replace Chipper, Prado has done very well in LF, it works.
Olt hit 28 bombs last season and had an OBP approaching .400. I know it’s very risky given that he has exactly 40 PA at the MLB level (and didn’t exactly do all that great), but the talent is there.
I’d accept the risk with that kind of possible reward.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:30 am
That move will leave us with no ready pitching and what would it matter if you lost a draft pick if you were gaining one by offering Bourn that qualifying offer? Our first round draft choice is pretty low in the first round and not that many ahead of a supplemental pick.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:30 am
Bourjos vs. LHP- .256/.298/.421/.719
Francisco vs. LHP- .190/.224/.222/.446
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:30 am
While I don’t disagree that we still have some depth TOBF, no way in holy hell am I trading Teheran and Delgado AND another high end spec in ANY deal together unless its involving Chase Headley or some other superstar….
Getting both Span and Willingham still doesn’t qualify as that….
That would be more of a Teheran, Gilmartin, Hanson, Salcedo, and Ahmed type of deal (and I may not even be inclined to give THAT much)
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:31 am
And if he hadn’t been hurt, he still would not have started. The Guy is a fourth outfielder. Maybe you need to face facts.
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:32 am
Murph-
I don’t see Texas giving up Olt…
He will eventually slot in at 1b since Beltre is going nowhere and I see them trading Moreland.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:32 am
Anybody know anything about Leonys Martín, an OF prospect playing in the Rangers system?
The guy tore it up last year in AAA.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:33 am
That move will leave us with no ready pitching
I know that Lew… I wouldn’t be a fan of that. We will probably need to fill SP via trade next year… we need tradeable assets. But if we’re gonna overpay for Willingham, why not do it fully and get our CF/leadoff too. Screw the price in prospects. Gotta massively overpay at times. Who cares that we’re a mid-market team…..
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:34 am
The point with Francsico was that you hate on hyim and the numbers he puts up and think that Bourjos, with worse numbers is just fine. They aren’t going to compete for a position and what they both hit against LHP is basically immaterial. You might also need to work on analogies, as well as reality.
Gone Viral
October 24th, 2012
11:35 am
“Next big three……………….Medlen, Beachy and ????????????? one more needed. Its Not Minor either.”
Really? That 2.16 ERA and tasty 0.87 WHIP after the All-Star Break sure made it look like he is.
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:35 am
Here’s an out of the box idea for everyone though….
Ian Kinsler for 3b….
The Rangers are at the point where they need to deal 2 of Moreland, Andrus, Kinsler, Young as to their infield surplus that now includes young studs Profar and Olt….
I expect them to deal Kinsler and Moreland before Andrus…..
So Ian Kinsler would be an interesting possibility and I am sure he can play 3b
He crushes lefties….but as w/ everyone who plays in Texas, the concern is his H/R splits….
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:36 am
Two things that would change my opinion of Wren:
(1) not making a qualifying offer to Bourn)
(2) not picking up McCann’s option
Better not happen or I will join the crazies
I agree with this.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:37 am
Wouldn’t be a fan of it? Seriously, why would you consider it at all, much less be a fan of it?
Our pitching the past two years has been uite good and how many starting pitchers did we use each of those two years? Eight? Ten? And you think it might be vaguely all right to limit ourselves to the five or six on the MLB roster? And you want to dump Hanson, too.
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
11:37 am
Really? That 2.16 ERA and tasty 0.87 WHIP after the All-Star Break sure made it look like he is.
Pretty ridiculous that anyone would even consider Beachy, Medlen and Minor as our “Next Big Three”.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:37 am
Since you seem to be so gung ho on Hunter Pence and because I think the Giants will tender him a contract even if they decide to trade him, how exactly do you think we match up with the Giants?
I don’t see us matching up well with them at all… we could start with a Teheran or Delgado+ package, but that team has some good pitching prospects already. Maybe find a 3-way trade somewhere… like we send a prospect to the Twins/Cards, the Giants get the CF from that 2nd team, we get Pence. The Giants clear money to go after Hamilton, if they wish to do so.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:38 am
Kinsler played one game at 3B for TX and one game at 3B in the minors back in 2005… not sure he’d be the answer. Interesting thought, though.
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:38 am
Lew-
Point is, neither one of those guys should have starting MLB jobs….
Also, you gotta remember w/ ML ready pitching specs…..if you have 5, you can probably count on about 1-2 even panning out properly….its just a crap shoot as to who succeeds….
Look at the Braves….for all the Glavine’s and Milwood’s they had, they also had the Jason Schmidt’s, Jason Marquis’, and guys like that who didn’t cut the mustard in ATL but were helpful pieces in making the team better….
I see this being the point where we are at now….use the pieces to make the team that is oh so close that much better
ncgary
October 24th, 2012
11:38 am
whole heartedly agree freefan
willingham could have been gotten
a while back and been a solid pickup
now would just be calling the fire department
after the barn burned down
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:38 am
Who cares that we’re a mid market team? Thank God Wren does.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:40 am
no way in holy hell am I trading Teheran and Delgado AND another high end spec in ANY deal together unless its involving Chase Headley or some other superstar….
Getting both Span and Willingham still doesn’t qualify as that…
Agree. But supposedly to get those 2 and send only Delgado or Teheran + wouldn’t be fair. In my opinion, that’s more than fair.
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:41 am
Murph-
Of course looking at his contract, its not very Braves friendly….
But he is an outside the box option that kills LHP
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:41 am
PTown – Thank you. At least you understand. I’ve never seriously considered Francisfor anything more than a platoon at third against RHP. I don’t even want a deal made for Bourjos.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:44 am
.237/.299/.313/.613, 62 OPS+ Michael Bourn thru age 25
.247/.301/.402/.703, 97 OPS+ Peter Bourjos thru age 25
Defensively.
-10 Rtot, +7 Rdrs for Michael Bourn thru age 25
+35 Rtot, +34 Rdrs for Peter Bourjos thru age 25
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:45 am
PTown – Yeah, I realize the part about not all panning out, but look at last year – we used Hudson, Hanson, Beachy, MInor, Delgado, Teheran, Maholm, Sheets and Jurrjens to start games.
Jurrjens will be gone. Beachy is out at least until mid season and maybe not making a big contribultion after that. Everyone wants Hanson gone. Trade Delgado and Teheran (not to mention Gilmartin) and what you’re left with will not come close to being enough to make it through the season. And unless Willingham and Span can pitch, too…….Of course, there’s always Prado. He can do anything, right?
Bawlmer Brave
October 24th, 2012
11:46 am
No, we didn’t go after Willingham last year, nor Cespedes, nor any other starting outfielders because we didn’t have a spot for one. Remember, we had Chipper at 3B, Prado in LF, Bourn in CF, Heyward in RF. Where do you propose we should have put Willingham (or other OF) in our NL lineup? Unless we had moved Uggla and put Prado back at 2B, we had no room for such type of player. If we had our current needs during LAST year’s FA class, I’m sure we would have made a run at someone like Willingham or Cespedes, but it’s only wise to sign players that you have vacant spots for them to play in. That ship has sailed, no need projecting last year’s interest in such players to this year’s. Wren has different priorities and different holes to fill this year.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:47 am
Who cares that we’re a mid market team? Thank God Wren does.
Indeed. Which is why I’m hopeful that he won’t be trading for Willingham at the cost of Teheran/Delgado +
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:47 am
Oh yeah – Medlen, too.
Gone Viral
October 24th, 2012
11:48 am
“Pretty ridiculous that anyone would even consider Beachy, Medlen and Minor as our “Next Big Three”.”
Big 3 doesn’t have to mean future Hall of Famers. Mulder was out of baseball within 7 years of that exemplary sophomore season. Zito pitched lights out just long enough to get a massive contract elsewhere. Oakland got what they needed out of them, though.
Assuming no setbacks for Beachy, those three guys leading to Venters, O’Flaherty and Kimbrel is a tantalizing proposition. While there isn’t enough of a track record to believe they are on the level of Oakland (much less Atlanta’s Holy Trifecta), the early performance does naturally lead to that thought process. With young pitchers, the key is how they attack the strike zone. Beachy and Medlen have that in spades. Minor started to figure it out after his job was threatened.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:49 am
TOBF, I get the comparisons of Bourn at 25 to Bourjos at 25… I’m just not sure the Braves have the patience to wait the 3 or 4 years it’s going to take for Bourjos to actually get good.
Seems they want to maximize every position now rather than take a developmental approach, bringing guys along slowly.
N8
October 24th, 2012
11:49 am
Lew, fine assessment of Mac’ numbers in his worst year. You left out one part though, that is HUGE….
What is his salary compared to all of those other catchers for the 2013 season? My guess is other than Molina…. it’s the highest. And likely the 3rd highest in baseball for a catcher behind Molina and Mauer.
ncscoots
October 24th, 2012
11:49 am
Braves didn’t want [Willingham as a FA last year]
And where, exactly, would you have played him? Or do you think you could have made an offer and said, “Josh, we love you, but we’re not exactly sure that we can give you 600 PAs. You know, what with Chipper and Prado and all. You might have to sit on the bench for a year while your value rots. Nothing personal.” That seem like it would be attractive to the guy?
You cannot judge the Braves’ evaluation of the player from the lack of an offer in a year when the player didn’t fit the club. Good grief.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:50 am
Where can I verify the stat on contact percentage?
It looks like he’s (Bourjos) taking a more patient approach this year, swinging less in and out of zone. It’s nudged up the walk rate a bit, but he’s making contact on 91.6% of pitches in zone this year
Pretty nice to see the contact ability. Wonder if the strikeouts are more a function of the patient approach. Taking bad pitches that are called strikes and sitting down for the (lack of) effort.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:50 am
Yet at 11:13, that’s exactly what proposed. Have you been following the strategy of one of the main players in the Presidential race and changing your position every few minutes?
BravePack(FreeFan)
October 24th, 2012
11:52 am
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
11:35 am
Here’s an out of the box idea for everyone though….
Ian Kinsler for 3b….
The Rangers are at the point where they need to deal 2 of Moreland, Andrus, Kinsler, Young as to their infield surplus that now includes young studs Profar and Olt….
I expect them to deal Kinsler and Moreland before Andrus…..
So Ian Kinsler would be an interesting possibility and I am sure he can play 3b
He crushes lefties….but as w/ everyone who plays in Texas, the concern is his H/R splits….
This is the kind of trade I see Wren making. Something no one has talked about, until now(thanks P-Town), for a bigger name and younger than 35 years old. Kinsler would be a nice pick-up for this team so now P-Town ruined it.
ncscoots
October 24th, 2012
11:52 am
I owe BawlmerBrave a Coke, it seems.
Beat me to it, my man.
N8
October 24th, 2012
11:54 am
There will NEVER be another “big 3″ compared to Smoltz, Glavine and Maddux. That I can guarantee.
I seriously doubt MLB will ever see 3 future HOF guys stay in the same rotation for a decade together. Seriously….. it’s not going to happen.
So let’s put that to bed right now.
That being said, there is nothing out there to say that any trio of pitcher (even Medlen, Beach and perhaps Minor – or Delgado/Teheran or even Maholm)… can’t put together 2-3 season togeher as a very solid rotation that leads their team to more W’s than L’s.
THAT is what we should be hoping for. Add to that, we have the best closer in baseball and one of the best bullpens in general. So there is an outside chance that for a season or two, when Beachy is healthy, a Braves pitching staff could be as dominant as those guys for a short period.
But next big three? Get real.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:54 am
Nathan no, not all that huge, really. Third highest salary yet 4th or 5th in several major categories on a really bad, injured year? Not that huge a discrepancy especially factoring in the injury and resulting surgery.
You pay players that get hurt – happens all the time. And when you factor in thae likely was radically underpaid throughhout his first six years, I’d say that you can lose a couple bucks on the ONE year he was really hurt without it making it worth dumping him when the problem has been fixed.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:54 am
TOBF, I get the comparisons of Bourn at 25 to Bourjos at 25… I’m just not sure the Braves have the patience to wait the 3 or 4 years it’s going to take for Bourjos to actually get good.
Michael had a good year in his age 26 season… hit .285/.354/.384/.738. 1 yr removed from a .229/.288/.300 He’s been good since.
ncscoots
October 24th, 2012
11:54 am
While there isn’t enough of a track record to believe they are on the level of Oakland (much less Atlanta’s Holy Trifecta), the early performance does naturally lead to that thought process.
Time to sell high, then, LOL.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
11:58 am
Kinsler would be a nice pick-up for this team
So would Ike Davis, but given that there isn’t a position open for either guy, I don’t see the Braves pursuing them.
Now I have another item to add my offseason wishlist… they need to get a guy whose native position is either 3B, LF, or CF. I don’t want to see a 1B picked up with the hope of converting him to LF.
Lew
October 24th, 2012
11:58 am
Well, enough of this for now – time to go get some rework done and I’m absolutely certain that this conversation will continue for months to come. Later. Have a good one, y’all.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
11:59 am
Yet at 11:13, that’s exactly what proposed. Have you been following the strategy of one of the main players in the Presidential race and changing your position every few minutes?
I wasn’t being sincere Lew… obviously. It was a sarcastic attempt to show a fair trade. I’m against Delgado for Willingham. Why would I be for that mess?
Bawlmer Brave
October 24th, 2012
12:00 pm
ncscoots, great minds think alike? or is it great minds run in the same gutter? Anyhow, make sure it’s a Coke, not a Pepsi.
I’m tracking with you completely. I WISH we either had the hole last year, or he was available FA this year. Oh well, now we deal with the hand we’re dealt.
Gone Viral
October 24th, 2012
12:02 pm
“I seriously doubt MLB will ever see 3 future HOF guys stay in the same rotation for a decade together. Seriously….. it’s not going to happen.”
Right, Atlanta had their choice of Barry Bonds or Greg Maddux at the start of free agency in 1992. Just think about that for a moment. Adding Maddux to Smoltz, Glavine and Avery (plus Pete Smith) looked like overkill at the time. In hindsight, it is one of the best GM decisions ever. Nobody should ever expect anything like that ever again. The odds of three of the best six or seven pitchers in baseball all being in the same rotation for a decade are mathematically insignificant. Detroit would have to trade for King Felix, Scherzer would have to develop further and Verlander would have to remain effective for the next 10 years for the same situation to exist now.
ncscoots
October 24th, 2012
12:05 pm
Oh well, now we deal with the hand we’re dealt.
I do wonder at the logic from some that says he would have been an OK FA pickup a year ago, but is an overaged, overrated bumb now. Poor guy obviously didn’t know that a year spent crushing the baseball would lower the perception of his value so much.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
12:06 pm
Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz, all in their prime, and only one WS to show for it.
Why?
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
12:06 pm
http://risingapple.com/2012/10/18/could-peter-bourjos-be-a-fit-in-the-outfield-for-the-mets/
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
12:11 pm
If Beachy, Medlen and Minor are a “big three” – than there are a lot of “big three” around baseball.
Murph
October 24th, 2012
12:11 pm
There’s going to be a lot of teams targeting the players that we’ve been talking about for the last few weeks…
I can’t wait for the end of the WS just so we can get to the drama that will be the 2012 offseason. Gonna be an entertaining one.
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
12:12 pm
Why?
Some of the worst playoff luck seen in the history of the sport. And it hasn’t gone away since those three have been removed.
0-7 in their last 7 playoff series(including the coin flip) dating back to 2001.
Shaun
October 24th, 2012
12:18 pm
I just don’t think players think in terms of just getting a 2 year deal so that they can possibly make more down the road, @Shaun
Ross specifically stated that the took a shorter deal so that he could make more down the road. He must not have checked with you first to find out that it just is not done
But Ross has been a backup catcher pretty much his whole career. Yes, I should have qualified my statement. Players don’t leave great deals on the table for lesser deals, in hopes that they will get a better deal down the road.
So, in this instance, if the Braves decline McCann’s option, he’s not going to negotiate a lesser deal than what he could get on the open market (probably at least the $12M a year the Braves declined) in hopes that he’ll make more down the road.
Gone Viral
October 24th, 2012
12:18 pm
“Glavine, Maddux, and Smoltz, all in their prime, and only one WS to show for it.
Why?”
The prevailing wisdom in baseball in the 1990s was, “Just get to Atlanta’s bullpen.”
Shaun
October 24th, 2012
12:21 pm
I believe Andrelton Simmons has contact skills close to Juan Pierre — VaBravesFan
He’s certainly got a whole lot more power and power potential than Pierre ever had.–DOB
I’d be okay if Simmons turns out to be Juan Pierre on offense. Juan Pierre wasn’t a shortstop with an 80 glove and 80 arm. If Pierre was an 80-glove/80-arm shortstop, assuming this hypothetical Juan Pierre’s defensive skills remained great-to-solid his whole career, he might be a Hall of Famer.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 24th, 2012
12:22 pm
Cody Ross, Shaun
Efrim
October 24th, 2012
12:23 pm
David Price is projected to make $9.5 million in his second year of arbitration. Rays control him through 2015.
P-Town Brave ©
October 24th, 2012
12:25 pm
Oops….my bad BP…
And yes Murph, Kinsler has played some 3b in both the majors, minors, and winter ball….
So I think he’s more than capable of doing it and doing it well and in fact, I think he projects for his future better as a 3b than 2b
BravePack(FreeFan)
October 24th, 2012
12:25 pm
ncscoots
October 24th, 2012
11:49 am
Braves didn’t want [Willingham as a FA last year]
And where, exactly, would you have played him? Or do you think you could have made an offer and said, “Josh, we love you, but we’re not exactly sure that we can give you 600 PAs. You know, what with Chipper and Prado and all. You might have to sit on the bench for a year while your value rots. Nothing personal.” That seem like it would be attractive to the guy?
You cannot judge the Braves’ evaluation of the player from the lack of an offer in a year when the player didn’t fit the club. Good grief.
If a remember correctly I do recall the Braves were trying to trade Prado last season, so that would’ve opened up a spot.