9:11 pm October 22, 2012, by Carroll Rogers
October 30th, 20127:10 pm
The Giants had the intangibles working for them and Bruce Bochy is a far better post season manager than Bobby Cox could ever hope to be.
Bobby was a GREAT regular season manager but there was something that he did not have a handle on in the post season. Not all his fault, there were intangibles missing from those teams and the post season intangibles are sttill missing.
We could have won this WS championship — we were pretty good. But our culture lacks the firepower internal drive to win in post season. We save our sloppiest ball for the postseason like that division series vs the Giants in 10 and this yrs WC game.
October 30th, 20127:12 pm
Auburn football just pulled two recruiters off the road which probably means they are in hot water with the NCAA. 1 – 7 and looking at probation. They deserve it after hiring a guy name Chizik from Florida.
October 30th, 20127:13 pm
Uggla and Mac can’t suck again this year… esp. not Uggla. He will definitely be making up for his past 2 years. It’ll be a big year for him. TOBF
I’ve been reading the blog at times but have refrained from getting involved in goofy wish lists, but the above statement stuck in me like a knife. Really? Uggla has sucked to no end for 2 years now with the exception of 1 month in 2011, and McCann has stunk it up offensively for a year and a half now. Not only that, McCann can’t block balls in the dirt and gets worse every year trying to throw anyone out trying to steal. And God he is slow as shyt. At least Uggla can move down the line and run the bases well. No sir, saying they won’t have another bad year is pure bullshyt. The way they look now is not a blip on the screen. This is what they have sunk to. That’s all I have to say.
October 30th, 20127:20 pm
I will use a Falcons analogy. They have gotten a ton of improvement from some DBs, like Robinson, DeCoud, Owens, McClain. Real surprises, this year over last year.
These athletes are young kids. For some of them, a switch flips, and they finally get it, physically or mentally, or both. We should not expect sudden improvement from young players, but we should be prepared for it, and allow it to happen. Like Gattis, Francisco, Ahmed, etc., and their equivalents on other rosters when we are looking for trade possibilities. We don’t need to get fixated on player “X” to sign or trade for as being the only guy who will get us to the World Series. Pick 5 or 6 realistic players you would love on your team, and if a good deal comes up pull the trigger. But if you bring in two incredibly expensive players you run the risk of having flops, and also putting the FO in the political position of blocking a good young player in order to not admit a mistake.
I would like a more creative, flexible approach, that does not mortgage our ability to sign players as we move forward, even if we have a tad of uncertainty when spring training opens.
October 30th, 20127:26 pm
God knows, the Giants had a ton of uncertainty when their best player got DQ-ed halfway through the season. So a little uncertainty in spring training should not be an issue.
The Giants had their MVP candidate available for post season, but instead they said, “No, we prefer to have this piece of shyt reject from the Braves in left field for the most important part games we will play all year.” And then they win the World Series.
So a lot of it is some hot shot you sign or trade for. But that’s not all of it.
October 30th, 20127:27 pm
I think our post season personality will improve with Chipper gone.
You might be right Old Man —- but the most disgusted one is going to be the GM that grossly overpays for him. And if he gives him five yrs well that is on them.
I remember a few yrs back it was the Angels who gave Gary Matthews JR some ridiculous contract after he had one career year with I think it was Texas at the time. Made zero sense.
As for Bourn, he was a very good rental but with what he did in the second half of the yr I am not that sad to pass on him for the $$$$$$$$$$ he is gonna get.
I am not disgusted at Pagan, just the silly establishment of the game. The game is still great, the business of the game this day in time stinks.
October 30th, 20127:28 pm
Folks, that Giants line up that just won the World Series? Three months ago, if you had gone down the list position by position, not a single one of you would have traded our starting eight for their starting eight. If we had gotten into an NLDS series with them, you still would not have done that. Nor would I.—-old man
Well I’m not buying that crapola. Position by position!? Ok, without even thinking about it. Sandoval, Posey, Pence. How bout that. I didn’t even think hard. No way any of them don’t start for Atlanta. Zero chance. Some positions are a wash like SS. Scutaro starts for me over Uggla. That’s a no brainer. Of course, a lot of players would start for me ovr Uggla. There are many reasons San Fran is better than Atlanta. #1 is their players and manager don’t choke when the stakes get high. We have three starters that are better than at San Fran. Freeman, Prado, Heyward. That’s pretty much it.
October 30th, 20127:30 pm
You would prefer Pence on your team over Heyward.
You’re an idiot. I stopped reading after you said that.
October 30th, 20127:32 pm
I read that list of SP’s that TOBF posted about available FA’s for ‘14.
There are some sexy names out there but there is also considerable age and some, like Lincecum have question marks. With the yr Lincecum had he is a big question now. And he will be 30 with his body type and delivery. Some one is going to overpay.
Other names like Carpenter and Halliday are getting older.
I don’t see us being players for one of those guys at this time.
And Minor and Delgado are still in the learning curve and likely to get better. I hope Hanson can be a full season pitcher.
JJ is gone — No big deal. He is prolly going to have to settle for a two way contract.
October 30th, 20127:33 pm
Another thing on Bourn is that they can get the pick.
I prefer Freeman over Belt.
I prefer Simmons over whatshisname.
I prefer Chipper over Sandoval. (If you say you would have said that 3 months ago, you are a liar.)
I prefer Prado over Blanco.
I prefer Bourn over Pagan.
I prefer Heyward over Pence.
Would I trade Uggla for Scutaro? Tough call.
Posey over McCann, easy.
That’s 6-2, Braves win.
October 30th, 20127:35 pm
“…But our culture lacks the firepower internal drive to win in post season. We save our sloppiest ball for the postseason like that division series vs the Giants in 10 and this yrs WC game.” – Disgusted
A disturbing pattern indeed but, one we’re very used to.
It’s called c-h-o-k-i-n-g. We’re good at that.
October 30th, 20127:36 pm
Before post season, if anyone said they would start the Giants 8 over our 8, well that’s nuts.
The entire point I’m making is that hindsight is 20/20. The Giants’ success tells you something about the makeup of good team. I think part of it is Billy Bean’s philosophy, but not entirely.
Well he’ll yeah I’ll take Pence right now and put him in LF for starters. McCann would be gone. Uggla would be gone. Sandoval would be at 3rd. Prado at 2nd. Oh, and you call me an idiot. Dude, San Fran didn’t win with smoke and mirrors. Two WS wins in the last three kind of seals that. You idiot.
Rock on …..beeches.
October 30th, 20127:39 pm
You would trade Heyward for Pence?????
Give me a break.
Jake W. (The original)
David Stern got the wrong storm, but he’s right katrina did mess some things up.
Anybody know where Linsanity is this year? Didn’t the Knicks cut him?
October 30th, 20127:40 pm
You don’t understand. It’s position by position. Of course there are players on their team I would like to have. But the hypothetical is that you have to trade all 8 of ours for all 8 of theirs. I just don’t think anyone would have done that.
October 30th, 20127:43 pm
“I think our post season personality will improve with Chipper gone”
Interesting thought Old Man ……………..I don;t know if he was a problem in post season but I would not vociferously debate that cause Chipper, while not having bad post season numbers, he never had that signature post season where he carried the team on his back in the post season.
One thing for certain — he was one of the variables there through these disappointing post seasons and there were a number of yrs when we arguably had the best team, even through 2000-05 when we did zilch in post season. We should have gotten to the series in both 02 and 03, but didn’t.
Did Chipper and Bobby hold us back????????? At the least its a conversation piece. Right or wrong — no way to tell.
October 30th, 20127:46 pm
Linsanity I think signed himself a nice little contract with houston.
ken,in Houston. Yes
Only position where the Giants held the edge was at catcher.
I would take the 2012 Scutaro over Uggla, in the past it would be the other way around.
I don’t get why anyone would take Pence over Heyward. Heyward and Freeman are untouchable, Simmons just about untouchable. He is still nearly a rookie, only played 49 games.
October 30th, 20127:49 pm
Uggla has sucked to no end for 2 years now with the exception of 1 month in 2011,…Jerry
what a foolish untrue statement. get real with your rips at least
October 30th, 20127:56 pm
Sorry I lost my temper.
October 30th, 20127:57 pm
Ha! All of these compliments to Simmons today, I hope we are still bragging about him one year from now.
October 30th, 20127:58 pm
I just think that when you look at their 8 versus ours, and say that maybe you would swap two of the eight, it sort of makes you scratch your head and think about how to put together a team.
October 30th, 20128:03 pm
Giants had 2 position players better than ours this year. Scutaro was better than Uggla which is no large accomplishment because most any 2nd baseman in the league would have been better and Posey was better which is a big accomplishment because he was the best one period.
In fact that was a difference between the Braves and Giants – We did not have a best one at any position.
Can’t believe anyone would suggest Pence over Heyward! That makes knowledgeable people just skip over your name and never read your stuff.
October 30th, 20128:04 pm
Chipper has to rank in the top ten all time for sweet swings. Dimaggio, Ted Williams, etc. Pure and graceful. And he produced and he was feared by pitchers.
I wonder of potential team leaders–free agents we have sought in the past few years–may have looked at this as Chipper’s team. And can someone who knows more than me tell me how Chipper was an inspirational leader to some of the younger players? I’m not saying he wasn’t, but through the media he seemed a little awkward, cool, aloof. Not in an arrogant way, but in a way that seemed removed and unapproachable from a younger player’s point of view.
Will his absence allow some others–maybe someone new that we sign or trade for–to be motivational in the clubhouse, perhaps more motivational than Chipper was? I’m not sure we will ever have the crazy clubhouse the Giants had this year, but maybe something a little more energized.
October 30th, 20128:07 pm
Anybody know where Linsanity is this year? Didn’t the Knicks cut him?
Off the top of my head, I think he was a restricted free agent, someone made an offer for him and the Knicks choose not to match it.
Or maybe none of that because I seldom care enough about the NBA to keep up.
I will say this: Chipper’s absence from the clubhouse is one of the great intangibles for 2013.
October 30th, 20128:08 pm
Braves grabbed that “business like” demeanor and liked it. Will be interesting now that Chipper has retired to see if we show more emotion. Baseball isn’t rah rah but more enthusiasm will be good IMO.
October 30th, 20128:09 pm
Friggin Giants. Braves go to their park in late August and drop first two games and reeling losing 6 of 7. Bounce back beautifully playing 2 crisp games splitting the series. No way that team is better than the Braves. WRONG.
Hunter Pence comes over midseason and has the stones to be a vocal leader forever changing playoff aspirations during the Red series. Go figure.
Giants fans will always remember Pence for 1/2 of a season just because of his ability to jump start his team.
Braves fans remember their HOF’er and his inspirational pregame dugout step speech concluding the 2011 season. Different results.
October 30th, 20128:12 pm
As an example, a guy like Cody Ross (there are statistical reason both for and against him), when I see him on TV, he seems to have little edge to him, which I like. Prado seems to have it too. It’s the pissed off versus disappointed look. When my guy strikes out, I want him to be more pissed off than disappointed.
October 30th, 20128:15 pm
I always thought Chipper’s talks to the team, at least the ones that were recorded by the media, were a little awkward, like Chipper wished he could be somewhere else, or listening to some other guy give the talk. Maybe in private, it was all different, like Pence.
October 30th, 20128:18 pm
The Braves did have some emotion and rah rah in the early yrs of winning (1991 thru 93) comes to mind. Some of that even carried over to the 95 WC team.
Those teams could beat you in many ways and we really had team speed with Gant, Deion, Otis Nixon as the top speedsters.
We had some inspirational leadership in TP and Sid Bream on those teams. The winning was new and frash and we were getting to the series.
The business demeanor came about around 97 or so. Some how we got staid and business like and have not had that post season magic we had when we got to 4 WS from 91 to 96.
They replaced the personalities like Justice and guys I mentioned above and it was a business like team. Something happened after game 4 of that 96 WS.
We stayed good but there was a spark that had not been there since.
October 30th, 20128:21 pm
Disgusted: you nailed it.
Maybe with a changing of the old guard, that will change. We have some very talented players, and 25M burning a hole in our pockets.
Old man – just reading from O’Brien and he will tell you there was nobody better to cover in baseball than Chipper Jones. From a media standpoint I am sure he is right, he was good copy and great to interview.
Leadership- well haven’t heard much that he was a great leader and from outside perspective sure as hell didn’t come across as a great leader. Said before, this team took on his personna and IMO hurt this club. This team should have been Prado’s team and wish he became “the voice” of the team. Does it play out differently? Who knows. Sure would have liked to see how it did with somebody other than Chipper being the face of this team.
Doesn’t take away from the guy’s abilities, he’s a great player. No George Brett but a great player.
I look forward to the post Chipper years nonetheless.
To me the difference in the Braves and Giants at the end when it counted was simply Ks.
We consistently give away 10 to 13 outs per game on Ks. Then folks want to fuss about no 2 out hitting. The only reason that stat exists is because guys make outs with runners on with 0 or 1 out then act like itas a big deal they make the last out without driving ina run. How many times did we get runners in scoring position and wiff? An awful lot.
Wish the Braves hitters would take a page from Chipper and Prado and be good 2 strike hitters. Worked pretty well for those 2 guys.
Lastly, take Chipper – I dare say, can’t prove it though, but had Chipper hit with 2 strikes like he did with 2-0 counts, as some Braves do, he may well have reached that 600 HR mark. But putting the ball in play, though still hitting it hard, was important to him and I bet again, though I can’t prove it, that the Braves benefitted from his 2 strike approach more than we would have had he not made slight 2 strike adjustments.
Thats why he retired with more BBs than Ks!
October 30th, 20128:22 pm
Will Zito have the same yr with the Giants he had this yr????
He finally earned some of those $$$$$$$$$$ he signed for.
Who could have imagined them winning it all with Lincecum having the yr he had.
Enter your comments here
October 30th, 20128:25 pm
You are right. We did have some fiery guys but I’m hoping we get a little more like that next year.
Of course its hard to be fiery too when a team sits back, with not much speed, waiting on bombs. I think we’ve been a little guilty of that. Enjoyed watching the early 90s teams obviously because they won but Nixon, Gant…brought excitement too.
October 30th, 20128:27 pm
If we are smart with the $25 mil its doable.
I do hope we do extend Hudson after ‘13 who has really been a great Brave.
Give him 2 more yrs with an option for a third. Will be hard to just find another SP to replace those numbers and he probably gives us a hometown discount if we don’t disrespect him.
October 30th, 20128:31 pm
To me too much emphasis is given to “the’ leader of a team. Not one guys job to be the face of the franchise and leader IMO. I think thats something the media portrays and wants to create. Chipper may not have led like some one want but he led fine to me because he got the job done and played the game right. We are gonna miss him more than anyone will know.
All that said. Who was the leader of the Big Red Machine? Bench, Perez, Morgan, Rose…Can’t pick one. They just got it done. Granted a lot of great players I just listed but no one was the end all.
October 30th, 20128:32 pm
Thanks for the Linsanity updates. He was the only interesting story in the NBA last year, except for the finals.
October 30th, 20128:33 pm
No surprise that all options were picked up. No way they would not pick up Mac’s option.
With Chipper gone things could get better. The Dawgs bball team went to the final four the year after Dominique Wilkins left.
October 30th, 20128:35 pm
Sure, we could emulate that long ago 1983 Dawgs hoops team after Nique left….
October 30th, 20128:36 pm
I’m sure Wren gets all kinds of information about players who bring more than just their stats to the table, and I’m sure it’s a big factor. But maybe we can go from mild sauce to at least medium heat on this team.
Two things about Fredi remain the same. He never played in a Major league game or has won a playoff game.
October 30th, 20128:37 pm
Phil I agree odds are long that the braves will do better.
October 30th, 20128:38 pm
Fredi has only managed one playoff game….
Not exactly a fair criticism.
October 30th, 20128:39 pm
Freddi G is limited in what he can do by payroll. Whats he gonna do, bench someone like the Yankees did? No, because their is no real depth. He had few options with Uggla and his struggles.
I thought Freddi did a pretty good job of managing the games most of the time which is about all a Braves manaager can do.
October 30th, 20128:40 pm
Where is Nolie to defend Chipper?
Freddi is not the problem. The team personality pre-dates his arrival.
October 30th, 20128:41 pm
Even before McCann struggled, there was a belief that highly regarded prospect Christian Bethancourt would be Atlanta’s starting catcher by the start of the 2014 season. – Mark Bowman
He’d have to make a ton of progress with the bat and with everything defensively not associated with pop times and throwing accuracy to be the team’s starting catcher in 2014. Long ways away.
Fredi made the mistake of keeping Chipper at cleanup, that was poor decision making. Guy was a total singles hitter at the end and should have been hitting behind Bourn with Prado in a position to drive the ball and position to plate runs. Oh well, it’s over.
I took the torch for him tonight at 8:31
October 30th, 20128:42 pm
Another way of looking at that is in the six years he has been a manager his teams have only made one playoff game.
Fredi could have inserted nolie into the lineup for Uggla and received better production in all phases of the game.
Uggla is an embarassment. Send him back to Miami.
October 30th, 20128:43 pm
Who would you have hit 4?
A lot of people like to bring up that Chipper has a MVP. Murphy has two.
October 30th, 20128:44 pm
The personality remains the same because he is Bobby Cox lite
October 30th, 20128:46 pm
Murphy was no Chipper….
Don’t even go there.
And Murphy was a very fine player.
October 30th, 20128:47 pm
I’ll defend him. We won’t have anyone swing like his for decades. And I agree with Mark. If he really wanted to, he could have hit 600 homers. He was more concerned about hitting .300, and I admire that.
I don’t think he meant to suck all the air out of the room, but he was the star, a sure HOFer, the veteran, the eternal Brave. Whether he was really configured to be a team leader, he was it by default. No one is going to jump up and try to usurp his spot, even by implication. And if you stand up and try to motivate the team, and Chipper’s sitting in the corner watching, well that’s a tough situation, for you and for Chipper.
Here’s where I want McCann or Hudson to post something and tell us what he was really like behind closed doors.
The Braves offense was at their best in late April when Chipper was hitting 6th and Freeman batting 3rd. Unfortunately Uggla and McCann hit the skids and had to abandon.
Argument here I read is that Prado is the “total ideal” 2 hitter. Well he is but not in this lineup. Prado can drive the ball and doubles machine. He would have added more value dropped in the order with Chipper batting in his slot.
October 30th, 20128:48 pm
All that said. Who was the leader of the Big Red Machine? Bench, Perez, Morgan, Rose…Can’t pick one. They just got it done. Granted a lot of great players I just listed but no one was the end all.
Mark — All of those guys had leadership personalities and a fire for the game. They all led in different ways. Perez is the one guy who really mentored and helped a young Davey Concepcion develop into a confident All-Star.
They were never the same teamafter Perez was traded for journeyman pitcher Woodie Fryman. And Perez still had something left in the tank — Dan Driessen was never really his heir apparent.
$$$$$$$$$ and age broke that team up. Joe Morgan slowed down and Pete Rose just upped and left for more $$$$$$$$.
Bench was Mr. Red but he too slowed down after age 30. Took alot of beating, last great yr was 77. at age 29.
As for Chipper he was a great player, no doubt. It’s not fair to put all the post season failures on him, but when the personality of the team transitioned from Justice, Gant, Otis, Deion and TP to Andruw, Chipper, Javy and the late 90’s teams, that was when the business as usual persona came in.
Maybe its not fair to be critical but hey, the talent was there for two more WC.
So, Braves history as good as its been leaves me seeing the glass as one quarter empty.
October 30th, 20128:50 pm
Finnally we can breath easy BRIAN is still a BRAVE. The BRAVES will do well and McFann will be pleased.
October 30th, 20128:53 pm
I was mystified as to why Murpphy’s career took an el foldo after his best season at age 31 in 1987.
Its not like he abused his body or was worn out with injuries (they came a little later).
Great player for 8 yrs from 80 to 87.
I see your argument but will counter with Chipper couldn’t run good enough to be a 2 hitter plus he was, even, this l;ast year the guy I wanted up there with the game on the line because of the hitter he has always been , his approach at the plate, his contact ability and the fact that as he says he “hit switch”.
Anyway, again, I don’t think the 4 spot was the problem this year. I go back to way too many Ks out of Uggla, Mac, even FF and Heyward and leadoff Bourn.
Chipper or Prado were the only consistent clutch guys we had. Again, I said consistent = No real prolonged ofers that killed the team.
October 30th, 20128:55 pm
i just spent 27 million and didn’t buy anything new .
who am i?
I wonder if Freddie Freeman doesn’t have some Hunter Pence in him. I’m looking at our starting lineup, and looking for someone who gives the post-Chipper team a little juice. Or will it be a new CFer or LFer???
October 30th, 20128:56 pm
sure would be nice having liberty pocket change money like that ,
Might should have let Mac move on…..
Only time will tell of course.
October 30th, 20128:57 pm
I agree 100%. Thats my point. Chipper did his part for sure it appeared to me. Of cousrse, I’m not in the clubhouse but you don’t get the kind of send off he got from his team mates or opponents by just being a great player.
He will be aa huge loss that will not be replaced. You just hope several together can pick up the slack.
October 30th, 20128:59 pm
From earlier The braves are not going to trade Simmons. Period.
Ken Griffey Jr. will be joining the braves.
No Coaching changes will be made. Tell that to Larry Parrish.
See your points Mark and like I said, it’s over. Great player and Chipper fan, but anxious to see what the team does from this point on. Lot of blame for sure and the more I think of Bourn, the more disappointed I was in him the last 2 1/2 months. He was pretty mediocre and deserves a good share of blame. I just didn’t like the lineup in September even while winning games, the offense was way way inconsistent and pitching was huge late.
Done venting, peace out.
October 30th, 20129:00 pm
October 30th, 20129:01 pm
Maybe 2013 will be the year.
October 30th, 20129:02 pm
Now to sign Ross and Reed.
October 30th, 20129:03 pm
One thing Murph had going for him several of those good years was a chubby guy named Horner hitting behind me. Pitchers often spoke about hating to face him. He wasn’t very good in some areas but he could hit and resulted in Murph getting a lot of good pitches.
Of course, that is is why the Yankees have had great hitters over the years to. They protect each other just by who is on deck. Not always the case but it sure helps.
Maybe Vivamore could write a new blog
The year of the strikeout with more Uggla to endure….
October 30th, 20129:04 pm
so whats it gonna take to make upton a brave
a spot on liberty board room?
October 30th, 20129:05 pm
No doubt Horner was an important part of Murph’s success.
Lol at nowhere….
I agree with you mostly. Not sure where I would have hit most of the guys. Heck, to FG credit, he experimented with about every possible scenario!
The Dawgs bball team went to the final four the year after Dominique Wilkins left
Yeah that was cool but I had NC State to win it all and they did.
October 30th, 20129:06 pm
For the Tigers?
Now go get Josh Hamilton
CHIPPER was a heck of a player, a sure HOFer. BUT I don’t want to do it and try not to, but when I think of CHIPPER first thimg that comes to mind is that throw WAY above 2nd base. Shame he had to go out with a game like that.
October 30th, 20129:08 pm
You are right George. Despite what Nolie and others say that is the play that turned that game around and led to the loss.
October 30th, 20129:09 pm
is youk thru yet or just a down year?
whats in wrens crystal ball.
you know how he constructs the team
has dob told yall yet?
magic eight ball tell me please
is david writght right for me
and the eight ball says try again
October 30th, 20129:11 pm
THrow away was on Uggla too. Late getting to the bag. Running across there because he broke late like an out of control bat out of you know where.
I always say it when its brought up and said it as it happened. Didn’t even throw a glove up there.
October 30th, 20129:14 pm
Nah, the throw is already fading….if not chipper, something else would’ve happened, and did anyway, to help us choke away that game.
But no denying it was indeed a crushing, deflating moment that clearly hurt and hurt badly.
The Dodgers have re-signed reliever Brandon League, a source tells Dylan Hernandez of the Los Angeles Times (via Twitter)
League’s deal has an average annual value of $7.5MM as well as a vesting option, according to Tim Dierkes (via Twitter).
Three years, $22.5 million? And he plans on using him over Kenley Jansen at closer? Wow.
Oh, Ned Colletti…..
I was there watching the debacle and no doubt Chipper pulled a rock and made a horrible play. STILL, down 3-2 in the 4th inning????????? Horrible hitting and consistent to how the team hit as a whole the last month. Not one guy to blame that night, total team effort there.
October 30th, 2012
It opened the flood gates for what followed ans sad to say he look sick at the plate all his ABs that game.
October 30th, 20129:16 pm
And short term deals like Jake Peavy is getting from the White Sox is exactly the type of deals Wren should be looking into. Two years, $29 million with a vesting option for 2015 based on innings pitched isn’t a bad deal at all for Peavy. He was one of the best pitchers in the American League last year.
October 30th, 20129:18 pm
lets alll hope mine gets better. i saw where a northwestern doc found the common
denominator for my affliction, at least its a start toward a cure
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