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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
6,463 comments Add your comment
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:03 pm
Biggest concern for me heading into 2013 is Heyward and Freeman not turning into the .850 hitters we’ll need them to be. I can stand continued decrease in productivity from Uggla and McCann. I can’t stand that in Heyward and Freeman. Need to see both of them get better. We don’t have any impact bats in the system. Pretty much not anywhere from Gwinnett to the GCL, imo. So this franchise has a lot riding on those two. Gotta continue to progress and turn into the faces of the franchise. Need to see at least an .850 from Heyward. Maybe less so for Freeman, but not by much.
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:03 pm
Coco Crisps and Scott Hairston sound about for Frank’s premium acquisitions
Shaun
October 26th, 2012
2:10 pm
BravesFanSince80s, I think if a catcher is not at least a pretty good game-caller, he isn’t going to be a major league catcher for very long. Also, I think we tend to understate the role that the pitcher has in essentially calling his own game. If a pitcher and catcher aren’t on the same page and the pitcher throws a pitch he doesn’t want to, and the pitcher feels strongly about a pitch that he wants to throw but doesn’t throw it, that’s the pitcher’s problem.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
2:10 pm
Coco Crisps and Scott Hairston sound about for Frank’s premium acquisitions
nolie’s ray of sunshine for us today.
BravesFanSince80s
October 26th, 2012
2:11 pm
In fact, one could make the argument the reason we had to go to a game 6 in ‘95 and possibly why we lost in ‘96 was because of the below average performances from Maddux because he was having to work with Javy with whom he was so uncomfortable pitching…
Gary O.
October 26th, 2012
2:11 pm
3B: Prado
LF: Willingham
CF: Victorino
DAP
October 26th, 2012
2:12 pm
bravesfansince80s more than one pitcher has had trouble working with him
name 3 and cite your sources. otherwise we can all assume you pulled it out of your rear end.
flange1
October 26th, 2012
2:12 pm
3B Prado
Lf Hunter
CF Victorino
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
2:13 pm
Anybody who understands how a catcher calls a game
I thought you were a “pretty good OF back in the day”.
BravesFanSince80s
October 26th, 2012
2:13 pm
that’s all well and good Shaun, doesn’t change the fact that Cox called plenty of pitches from the dugout while in Atl…
BravesFanSince80s
October 26th, 2012
2:14 pm
I was a pretty good outfielder while in college and caught a little in HS when our catcher got in legal trouble:)
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
2:14 pm
Brian Sabean, underrated GM
http://mlb.sbnation.com/2012/10/24/3547742/brian-sabean-san-francisco-giants-2012-world-series
I know Efrim will like this
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
2:15 pm
Gotta continue to progress and turn into the faces of the franchise.
Now, look…last offseason, you were about six degrees from obsessive about Heyward needing to return to form. I don’t want to see you go through another offseason like that.
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:15 pm
I’ll certainly agree that Javy was NOT considered a good game caller
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:16 pm
Manny Machado Tops List Of Almost Prospects
By Jim Callis
October 26, 2012
CHICAGO—Manny Machado should have figured prominently in our Orioles prospect list, and perhaps been the cover boy for our American League East Top 10 Prospects lists.
When 2012 began, there was absolutely no reason to think that Machado would play in the majors this season, let alone exhaust his prospect eligibility. The Orioles had no prayer of contending, while Machado was a 19-year-old who batted .245/.308/.384 in low Class A during the second half of 2011.
Then the Orioles started overachieving and never stopped, even as continual defensive follies at third base threatened to undermine their magical season. So Baltimore summoned Machado to play the hot corner in early August, even though he had just two games of pro experience at the position. He played every inning of the Orioles’ final 51 games and their six postseason contests, providing everything the club could have hoped for offensively and defensively.
Machado stands out the most on our list of youngsters who haven’t spent more than a half-season in the majors but accrued enough playing time to lose their prospect eligibility. Consider this a Top 10 of prospects who just missed qualifying for our Top 10 Prospect lists.
1. Manny Machado, 3b, Orioles: Because he’s a power-hitting shortstop from South Florida, Machado can’t dodge Alex Rodriguez comparisons. Though that’s a bit much, he hit .262/.294/.445 in his age-19 big league season, while A-Rod batted .232/.264/.408. Machado has plus tools across the board save for his speed, and while he’d rank behind Dylan Bundy on our Baltimore Top 10, he’d be the best No. 2 prospect on any list.
2. Matt Harvey, rhp, Mets: Hitters can’t try to sit on Harvey’s 92-98 mph fastball, because if they do then he can just make them look silly with his hard curveball, power slider or cutter. He averaged 10.6 strikeouts per nine innings in the majors, breaking Tom Seaver’s club record with 11 whiffs in his big league debut. Harvey vs. Zack Wheeler as New York’s top prospect would have been an interesting debate, with the vote here going to Harvey.
3. Andrelton Simmons, ss, Braves: Simmons had a fastball clocked at 98 mph at Western Oklahoma State JC, but he wanted to play shortstop in pro ball. Good call. He won the high Class A Carolina League batting title (.311) in his first full pro season and claimed Atlanta’s shortstop job by June of his second. He’s a terrific defender who continues to exceed offensive expectations.
4. Will Middlebrooks, 3b, Red Sox: Middlebrooks divided his time between football, hitting and pitching in high school. Since becoming a full-time position player, he steadily has improved each year, making a quantum leap this season by slamming nine homers in 24 Triple-A games before pushing Kevin Youkilis out of Boston. Middlebrooks could stand to improve his plate discipline, but he has the power and defensive ability to star at third base.
5. Yasmani Grandal, c, Padres: The next guy on this list made Grandal expendable in Cincinnati, so the Reds used him in the Mat Latos trade last December. Grandal controls the strike zone and has solid power, which he showed by homering from both sides of the plate in his first major league start. While he may not be more than an average defender, his bat could make him an all-star.
6. Devin Mesoraco, c, Reds: Mesoraco looked ready to play regularly for Cincinnati, but he hit just .212/.288/.352 and threw out only 20 percent of basestealers before falling to third on the Reds’ depth chart. He still has more raw power than Grandal, however, and could prove to be a better defender.
7. Anthony Gose, of, Blue Jays: Gose is a rare player with three 70 tools on the 20-80 scouting scale. His speed, center-field defense and arm strength are exhilarating, though they’re not going to matter much if he can’t make more consistent contact. Time is still on his side at age 21, but he’s a career .264/.341/.393 hitter in the minors and fanned 59 times in 166 big league at-bats.
8. Jean Segura, ss, Brewers: The best prospect among the three Milwaukee acquired from the Angels in the Zack Greinke trade in July, Segura offers more home run and stolen base potential than most shortstops. If his heavy-legged frame eventually pushes him to second or third base, he has enough offense to profile at either position.
9. Starling Marte, of, Pirates: He fits best in center field, though that’s not an option with Andrew McCutchen in Pittsburgh. If he can develop more patience at the plate, Marte has the hitting ability and speed to be a quality leadoff hitter. He also has the tools to play anywhere in the outfield.
10. Garrett Richards, rhp, Angels: Richards spent time in the rotation and bullpen for Los Angeles this season, and he has the power stuff to be an asset in either role. With a four-seam fastball that hits 99 mph and a slider that pushes 90, he has a ceiling of a No. 2-3 starter or a closer.
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:17 pm
gee I might have to look up how a catcher calls a game now……
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:18 pm
Brian Sabean, underrated GM
Get that stuff out of my face!
Sabean couldn’t tie Wren’s Sperry’s.
And I really do mean that.
Shaun
October 26th, 2012
2:19 pm
BravesFanSince80s, it’s a shame when the facts don’t jive with our assumptions or with the accepted narrative.
Maddux’s career ERA with Javy Lopez as his catcher: 2.35.
Yes, he had a 1.61 ERA with Charlie O’Brien, so I guess he was just awful with Lopez, comparatively, because 2.35 is downright awful.
Of the eight catchers that caught Maddux for at least 45 games, he had the lowest ERA with Javy Lopez.
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:20 pm
Sperrys? You been hangin’ with scoots a lot lately??
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:21 pm
Now, look…last offseason, you were about six degrees from obsessive about Heyward needing to return to form. I don’t want to see you go through another offseason like that
At the Tipping Point, scoots……
But seriously, I’ll need a hug if Heyward and Freeman sub-.800 next year. Would really suck.
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:22 pm
Yogi Berra was supposed to have said ” In theory, practice and theory are the same. In practice, they ain’t” I think of that a lot here during the daytime……
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:22 pm
Sperrys? You been hangin’ with scoots a lot lately??
Sandals, Sperrys and my Nike Air Max’, noles. I don’t mess around.
BravesFanSince80s
October 26th, 2012
2:24 pm
in all seriousness, I did get to catch a no-hitter in HS once. Pretty cool, I gotta say. Conference rival at that. It was Cherokee HS (the one on the reservation) and it was in the pouring rain. I remember being pretty miserable in the catching gear soaking wet and not really being aware it was a no-hitter until it was almost over. But it’s awesome to have that in the memory bank regardless…
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:24 pm
well Efrim, you know that 780 is the new 830, so they should reach it one way or t’other….
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:26 pm
well Efrim, you know that 780 is the new 830, so they should reach it one way or t’other….
Hah! True that.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
2:27 pm
Sandals, Sperrys and my Nike Air Max’, noles. I don’t mess around
I think if Heyward goes .880 next year, I can get Efrim into some Weejuns, though.
BravesFanSince80s
October 26th, 2012
2:28 pm
thank you, the ever-knowing, all-powerful Shaun. Doesn’t change that Maddux didn’t like pitching to him and requested O’Brien or about anybody else available, ERA be damned this time…
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
2:31 pm
Coco Crisp and Scott Hairston type of acquisitions is going on the cheap.
Braves fans are too smart to fall for that crap so do not be surprised to see fans stay away from the games.
Do that and you are looking at falling back to 85 W’s at best.
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:35 pm
did y’all know that Willingham has the 38th best career OPS of all active players and the 28th best OPS plus.
that’s pretty damn close to premium, and dirt cheap too
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:36 pm
I think if Heyward goes .880 next year, I can get Efrim into some Weejuns, though
Nice!
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:38 pm
Willingham would be great and I hope there is a deal that can be worked out without having to give up Teheran or Graham. Not sure though.
Shaun
October 26th, 2012
2:38 pm
BravesFanSince80s, if Maddux didn’t like pitching to Lopez, it’s hard to see that it affected his performance with Lopez behind the plate.
It’s not a matter of what I know. It’s a matter of what actually happened. Maddux was outstanding with Lopez behind the plate. I suppose being able to find the facts makes me “ever-knowing” and “all-powerful”?
You can clearly see Maddux performed just fine with Lopez behind the plate. You can completely ignore the facts and continue to make unsubstantiated claims that Lopez definitely cost the Braves in the ‘95 and ‘96 World Series or you can pay attention to the facts. Really, it doesn’t matter to me how you are making yourself look.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/split.cgi?id=maddugr01&year=Career&t=p#catch
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:41 pm
perhaps because Maddux just mostly called the games himself, I saw an awful lot of shake offs when Javy was catching him.
McFann :Ô: :Ô: :ô:
October 26th, 2012
2:43 pm
DAP name 3 and cite your sources.
[crickets…crickets…crickets…]
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
2:44 pm
Teheran, Spruill, Ahmed, Salcedo for Gordon. One of our lefty relievers + Cunningham? or Lipka? Some lower level prospect for Bourjos
I don’t have an issue withthat though I don’t know about giving up 4 players for Gordon whom I would love to have.
And as far as our lefty relievers, Venters is one guy I’d prefer not to give up even with his off and on season this past yr.
I could go into 13 with an OF of Gordon, Bourjos and Heyward. And, we still should have Reed Johnson. I guess we can keep Constanza around as a AAAA guy hovering between Gwinnett and the big club. He is not bad in that role.
I say offer either Hinske or Diaz a minor league deal. We know what they ould do when good and healthy. I would offer one of them a two way deal. Need depth. There is usefulness for AAAA guys.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
2:45 pm
Willingham would be great and I hope there is a deal that can be worked out without having to give up Teheran or Graham. Not sure though.
Or Delgado. Gilmartin wouldn’t be a big loss, when I think about it rationally. Not that I can see the Twins taking Gilmartin as the headliner
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
2:46 pm
I’m not denying I did it, LOL, just can’t remember who I would have characterized that way.
He’s one of the many you blast on here. Michael Bourn of the career 90 OPS+ (98 over the last four season, hey look at that!)…. then some one brings up Angel Pagan of the career 106 OPS+ (111 over his last four seasons, “well he can’t defend!”)
That’s the first to come to mind. But I think just about every player out there is offensively superior to Bourn, save for those random calls for platoon bench players…
nolie
October 26th, 2012
2:47 pm
Gordon does not hit lefties all that well , wonder why he doesn’t switch hit
I just cannot see Wren going into next season with someone as unproven as Bourjos starting in CF. would be a huge voluntary comedown
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
2:51 pm
Basically it boils down to, you don’t seem to impressed with any of the selection and frankly, neither do I. But I’m realizing one of those lack luster options is going to be in CF because the Angels are never going to swap Trout for Mike Minor like Wren did. So we’ll have to deal with it. What really bums me out is, I see the options available to the Braves and none of them are premium players, yet that is the tag that will be applied to whoever is reeled in. That merely means Frank Wren intends to lay down a fat, bloated, unattractive contract on one of those underwhelming players… and that is more depressing than seeing them in CF.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
2:52 pm
No one really knows why Maddux did not pitch to Javy Lopez on a regular basis.
At least nothing public ever really came out of it. I have not researched it but I do think there were times when Maddux did pitch to Javy in postseason — though memory is that Maddux was usually throwing to either Eddie Perez, Paul Bako or whoever was his designated C even in post season.
Eddie Perez did not hurt us, but there were some real scrubs that Maddux pitched to.
That alone does not explain the multiple failures we had in post season from 2000 thru the rest of the time Maddux was here. I think his last yr with us was 03.
There is something in the culture of the mental makeup of this org that has to be there as to why we fail in post season so often. The last post season run we really made was in 99, and we got our tails kicked by the NYY.
Something has been blocking us since Game 4 of the 96 WS. No matter what kind of team we have we canot do it in post season. We should have 3 or 4 WC with the talent that has come through here.
Murph
October 26th, 2012
2:52 pm
Teheran, Spruill, Ahmed, Salcedo for Gordon.
Wow, why not throw in Heyward and/or Freeman while we’re at it.
That seems like a huge overpay for a guy who doesn’t hit lefties.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
2:56 pm
I could go into 13 with an OF of Gordon, Bourjos and Heyward.
Me too. Heyward and Freeman should get better offensively, and Gordon/Bourjos keep up our outfield D. Plus we gain a RH bat in the lineup (Bourjos)
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
2:57 pm
Murph — that might be a bit of an overpay but Gordon’s two yr record would fit fine here.
He has 37 HRS and 96 doubles — I will take that aganst anybody. He hit somebody. A guy who puts up those numbers is major league.
Lefty/Righty splits are sometimes overrated anyway — Ryan Klesko became a better player once he left here once he got a place in the lineup.
You have to give up something to get something.
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
2:57 pm
That merely means Frank Wren intends to lay down a fat, bloated, unattractive contract on one of those underwhelming players… and that is more depressing than seeing them in CF.
And don’t forget giving up our 2013 First Round draft selection for that player. But we really need em, since our system is so awesome and we draft so well anyway.
Evan Gattis > Jurickson Profar > Dylan Bundy
Book it.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
2:59 pm
@TOBF — Believe it or not you and a couple others on the blog are warming me up to the probability of Bourjos (so long as we get a proven hitter for LF).
The defense and XBH potential he showed in 11 says something.
Who says you cannot learn from the blog. LOL.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
3:02 pm
I’d rather trade for a Gordon and Bourjos than lose the 13 first round pick cause there is not anything that attractive in this class.
We really need the picks. And we really got to stock the system & have better luck on ITL players and not waste it on Kawacomics and Salcedo types.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:02 pm
Basically it boils down to, you don’t seem to impressed with any of the selection and frankly, neither do I.
Then, just join me in finding fault with every one of them, LOL. Come on, it’ll be fun.
I guess where I come down on it is this: no pickup, no how, is going to come close to matching Bourn’s defense, so his stick absolutely has to be more than just marginally better. Otherwise, the team is in the hole on run differential from the get-go. I don’t find that to be “improving” the team.
So, I’m likely to be sneering at all these suckers.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:07 pm
That seems like a huge overpay for a guy who doesn’t hit lefties.
Gordon is a fine player who is an exceedingly poor fit for this particular team.
Murph
October 26th, 2012
3:10 pm
no pickup, no how, is going to come close to matching Bourn’s defense
That’s why I predicted that the team resigns Bourn. They’ve got the cash for one “premium” player and the prospects for one “premium player”. Might as well use the cash on the one known quantity out there and bring Bourn back. We already have a good idea what he’ll do playing in Turner Field, how he’ll do against the NL East, etc.
Use Teheran or Delgado as the main piece in a package to get either a LF or 3B… there has to be someone out there that can hit for power and a decent average and isn’t totally useless with the glove… and who could be available for the right price. Has to.
Shaun
October 26th, 2012
3:18 pm
Disgusted, Maddux did just fine with Lopez, better than fine, in fact.
Of course no one really knows why Maddux didn’t pitch to Lopez except probably some people within the organization at that time.
If I had to make a wild guess, I would say Maddux probably didn’t feel quite as comfortable pitching to Lopez, regardless of the fact that he was still outstanding with Lopez as his catcher. Sometimes it’s better to humor your star player when it doesn’t really matter that much as to who is catching, until it actually does. And the convenient thing is that a catcher needs a day off around every 5 days anyway. But if the Braves thought there was something to the Maddux-Lopez thing, Lopez probably wouldn’t have caught him as often as he did.
As far as the culture and the postseason failures, etc., with all due respect, I think all that is complete BS. The postseason is a crap shoot to a large degree. To the degree that it’s not, a big factor is having power pitchers. The pitchers that allowed the Braves to reach the postseason were finesse type pitchers (for lack of a better term), guys like Maddux and Glavine. The Braves put a premium on defense and pitching to get outs on batted balls. Not that Maddux never struck guys out. It’s just that he and guys like Glavine, and later, guys like Mike Hampton weren’t overpowering. And often in the postseason you are facing teams that can crush and get hits no matter how great the defense.
So when you consider the characteristics of most of those Braves’ teams (not as many power pitchers as other teams) and consider that there is a lot of chance that comes in to play in the postseason, we can understand why the Braves probably didn’t win more often.
I don’t think it has anything to do with the culture. If that were the case and there was a cultural issue, there is no way they would have won as often as they did in the regular season.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
3:20 pm
I guess where I come down on it is this: no pickup, no how, is going to come close to matching Bourn’s defense, so his stick absolutely has to be more than just marginally better. Otherwise, the team is in the hole on run differential from the get-go. I don’t find that to be “improving” the team.
So, I’m likely to be sneering at all these suckers.
Yeah, you’ll be sneering at all of them. But I don’t see a lesser defender/marginally better hitter as turning this into a clown team either. (That aforementioned run differential change isn’t going to be -20 runs, I suspect at most it’d be -5 runs over an entire season, so pretty meaningless). The Braves have had worse CF than Pagan and still won. But to do so would require Wren to actually put a premium player in LF, or keep Prado in LF and put a premium player at 3B.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
3:21 pm
And don’t forget giving up our 2013 First Round draft selection for that player.
I’m not as sold on the idea that every FA will get a qual as this line seems to imply…
Vabravesfan
October 26th, 2012
3:23 pm
nolie, Prado is a very good defender in the outfield. I just think Justin Upton is better. Younger and more athletic with a great skill set whos rated very highly for RFers, actually right behind Heyward i believe. Unlikely to land em but he would improve the defense in LF while Prado improves D at 3rd.
Finklestein
October 26th, 2012
3:27 pm
Almost Nov. and still Wren hasn’t done anything.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:27 pm
But I don’t see a lesser defender/marginally better hitter as turning this into a clown team either.
I agree with you there. My fear is that a focus on this open slot (the least important of the three) will result in similar follow-through on LF, for example, compounding the error and resulting in meeting none of the real needs. In an offseason where the resources are available to the Braves to actually do some damage to the NL, they may be reduced to squandering it on gold-plated because that’s what’s in the store.
Enough to make you want to spit.
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
I’m not as sold on the idea that every FA will get a qual as this line seems to imply…
Would be shocked if Pagan didn’t receive a qual. Upton too. Teams, other than the Braves, are loaded with cash and contracts off the books. These guys are getting paid, and I’d bet my house Freidman knows it and will provide it to Upton.
Knowing Sabean, Pagan will be signed to a six year, $96 million dollar deal. Scutaro – three years, $39 million.
Enquiring Minds Want To Know
October 26th, 2012
3:29 pm
Ephrim,
The Callis article you posted mentions Starling Marte of the Pirates. I think I remember him playing in that last series against the Pirates, and him playing very well. Do you know anything about him? Somebody the Pirates would deal since he’s blocked by McCutcheon?
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
3:31 pm
In an offseason where the resources are available to the Braves to actually do some damage to the NL, they may be reduced to squandering it on gold-plated because that’s what’s in the store.
A shame Beltran wasn’t a free agent this year. Two years, $26 million? Yes, please.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
3:32 pm
My fear is that a focus on this open slot (the least important of the three) will result in similar follow-through on LF
Yeah, by the way, have I told you what I think about the Braves and Left Field? ( :
As to Pagan/Bourn, it’s about a change of 1/5th of a win over a season, so just make sure that dramatic drop is covered elsewhere and then try to make up for the loss of Chipper Jones…
flange1
October 26th, 2012
3:34 pm
scoots said,
“I guess where I come down on it is this: no pickup, no how, is going to come close to matching Bourn’s defense, so his stick absolutely has to be more than just marginally better. Otherwise, the team is in the hole on run differential from the get-go. I don’t find that to be “improving” the team”
Very well said!
Only think I might add is if you were to add up the production of Chipper and Bourn, the new guys need to be produce at least to that level.
Then the potential improvements of Freeman, Simmons and Heyward would push the team forward as a better team.
scoots, do you think we should add production of the 2 slots together? MEaning if we have a worse CF and a better LF/3B it could be a net break even?
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
3:34 pm
I mean, it’s an “f” inbetween the “E” and “r” to the left of this comment, right? That’s the spelling of my name, I believe….
I wouldn’t mind Marte so long as Willingham was in LF. Just not sure why the Pirates would trade him.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:35 pm
As to Pagan/Bourn, it’s about a change of 1/5th of a win over a season
It will seem like more, before it’s over, brother.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
3:35 pm
Knowing Sabean, Pagan will be signed to a six year, $96 million dollar deal. Scutaro – three years, $39 million.
HA! I like his protege down in LA. Picked up Crawford… handed $21M to Juan Uribe….
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
3:36 pm
Shaun — I do think that there was not as much ugrency from some of he core players as there could have been.
Time and time again, once they got eliminated, you generally got the public impression from most of em, “We had a good yr, etc etc.” The only guy I remember who got publicly angry a bit was Brian Jordan who after the 99 WS showed frustration at failing vs the Yankees when they got swept.
Some of it was on Bobby Cox who came out and called the post season a crap shoot — we played great etc etc.
And as great a player that Chipper was, and though his overall post season numbers were solid, he never really had that signature post season where he took the team on his back and willed them a step or two further than they got.
Bobby Cox was a great manager and great baseball man but I never got a sense of disgust at the post season failures.
Hence, that is why I see something in the “culture” of the team in the center stage post season games.
Now, as for the power pitching theory, you have something there though they were good enough to win at least one or two more times.
And the bullpens were better than given credit for and we did have the shut down closer when Smoltz closed from 02 to 04.
Something was missing — there were a number of reasons why. It was greatbaseball but with one or two more WS champsinoships, we would have the universal respect that the national pundits do not give us.
Those NY sport jock types and many of those loud mouth SOB’s look at us like a joke which we are not. As a fan with some pride, that does bother me.
They did get to 5 WS and that has not been respected in the media circles.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
3:37 pm
It will seem like more, before it’s over, brother.
Not really. What will make it seem like more is having to watch a team without a hitter as productive as Chipper Jones was. His subtraction is larger than the CF movement. Getting hung up on who replaces Michael Bourn is wasting time.
Enquiring Minds Want To Know
October 26th, 2012
3:39 pm
Apologies on the spelling! Automatic fingers sometimes.
Callis said he fit best in CF, but McCutcheon’s going nowhere, so….
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:42 pm
Only think I might add is if you were to add up the production of Chipper and Bourn, the new guys need to be produce at least to that level. Then the potential improvements of Freeman, Simmons and Heyward would push the team forward as a better team.
Well, if everything percolates, they could probably score more runs than last year with most any acquisitions.
A simple return to form by McCann and Uggla goes a long way towards that end. Best case, that happens, plus Heyward and Freeman go beast, plus Prado scores about 120. All that occurs, you could probably put Elmer Fudd in CF and it wouldn’t matter.
I don’t think the pitching can improve all that much on 600 RA, so it’s up to the offense to create space. I would worry about any move which starts out by making that task harder.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
3:43 pm
NCScoots — I am not sure that you are one of the Willingham critics but if Gordon is not a fit for this team & if you do not want to verpay for Willingham what do you do –
Go for another stinking platoon type of guy like Scott Hairston or a so so player like Coco Crisp?
One funny thing about this team is that in spite of their lack of sexy moves (some unpopular ones like the Javy Vazquez deal to the Yanks), they do manage to stay relevant to some degree.
How long that lasts is anyone’s guess.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
3:44 pm
Gordon is a fine player who is an exceedingly poor fit for this particular team.
I wouldn’t say an exceedingly poor fit. He’s not a RH thumper who mashes lefties, but he is another .300 hitter with some power. We could use that. Only Prado hit above .290 last year.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:45 pm
I am not sure that you are one of the Willingham critics
I’ve been touting Willingham as a possible acquisition before he was even a twinkle in the blog’s eye.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
3:47 pm
We are not going to replace Chipper’s OPS and power not to mention that Chipper was a better third baseman than he was given credit for
He worked his way to become a good defensive player.
Could the Braves think of Scott Rolen for one yr. He might be useful in the right role, & should not cost much.
Will not be a fan stirring move, but it could be useful. Healthy is the key word for him like alot of older players.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
3:48 pm
I get it nc scoots — Willingham would not be bad at all — I say he has two more yrs left.
But do not expect 35-111 again, expect more like 26-95. I’ll take that.
Shaun
October 26th, 2012
3:48 pm
I guess where I come down on it is this: no pickup, no how, is going to come close to matching Bourn’s defense, so his stick absolutely has to be more than just marginally better. Otherwise, the team is in the hole on run differential from the get-go. I don’t find that to be “improving” the team.
So, I’m likely to be sneering at all these suckers.
I strongly suspect they’ll get a pretty good bat in left and probably a little better bat than Bourn in center. So the net result could be a better team, at least that’s what we’re all hoping, obviously.
If there’s not much of a net gain, it’s pretty reasonable to expect at least some improvement from McCann and Uggla and from the shortstop position (with Simmons saving tons of runs). And it’s always possible that the Braves look to add a pitcher or two, whether it be in the rotation or in the bullpen. Then you throw in that hopefully Minor will be good all season and Medlen will be in the rotation all season.
…you get the idea. See why it’s not as simple as “if Player X replaces Bourn, the team won’t be better”?
abeeeewright
October 26th, 2012
3:48 pm
“…turn into the faces of the franchise…”
I originally read that as “feces of the franchise.” Gave me a chuckle on a Friday afternoon, given what much of the fan base says about it’s own “yesterday’s heroes.”
I also think BM surgery is funny.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
3:48 pm
NCScoots — I am not sure that you are one of the Willingham critics but if Gordon is not a fit for this team & if you do not want to verpay for Willingham what do you do
Don’t want to overpay for Willingham? That’s me bud… He’s fine with a Delgado or Teheran trade for Willingham.
Disgusted
October 26th, 2012
3:50 pm
Now, improvement from Uggla — that is a very likely source of extra offense cause he cannot be as bad as he was most of this yr.
I don;t hink he is done at all — He had a bad yr.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
3:52 pm
But do not expect 35-111 again, expect more like 26-95. I’ll take that.
Hahahaha. The man hasn’t played more than 120 games in the field since ‘09. No DH here. Coming off of a career year, he’ll decline anyway. Add in that he’s 34. In Turner Field. The heat of the summer will wear him out… it’s not cool like Minneapolis.
20-24 HR, 85 RBI
Murph
October 26th, 2012
3:53 pm
I’m going to print up t-shirts that simply say “Premium Player” on them.
They’ll sell like hotcakes in ATL, and anyplace where being a “premium player” is recognized.
Word.
abeeeewright
October 26th, 2012
3:53 pm
I’d be OK with …
LF: Prado
CF: Victorino
3B: Headley
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
3:55 pm
Hahahaha. 20-24 HR, 85 RBI
Man, you’re just embarassing yourself with this stuff. Seriously.
flange1
October 26th, 2012
3:56 pm
again well said scoots
CB
October 26th, 2012
3:58 pm
We mention names like Angel Pagan and possible unreal contracts and yet some here want to throw a future HOF catcher with a repaired injury on the trash heap. Amazing and very,very stupid.
Murph
October 26th, 2012
3:58 pm
Now, improvement from Uggla — that is a very likely source of extra offense cause he cannot be as bad as he was most of this yr.
Isn’t that what people said about his 2011 campaign? He was hitting in the .100’s for most of July.
I think .230 is Dan’s new norm.
Murph
October 26th, 2012
3:59 pm
future HOF catcher
He’s got a long, long, long, long way to go before anyone starts calling him a future HOF catcher.
I like the guy, but c’mon.
Shaun
October 26th, 2012
4:01 pm
Disgusted, the Braves could do better than Scott Rolen, at this point in his career. And I’ve heard Rolen might retire. But even if he doesn’t, what would the Braves get? A little better than replacement level? Yes, he’ll be cheap. But if you are going cheap, why not go with a player who at least has some upside at this point in his career?
And I completely disagree about a problem with the culture of the Braves. Again, all I can say is look at their record overall. If there was a problem with the culture, I don’t think they would have won as often as they did. If it was about a lack of urgency, I don’t think they would have come back in some of those tight pennant races.
Vabravesfan, I think it’s quite possible Prado played well over his head defensively (though I’m not so sure he did to an extreme level). However, Justin Upton is not regarded as a great defender, and the data also backs that up.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
4:02 pm
I’m going to print up t-shirts that simply say “Premium Player” on them.
Scoots and I had some “Park Adjusted” shirts… I think “Sample Size” was in there… There was a whole line of ‘em and I don’t recall them all.
Could put ‘em all together for: “Over the right sample size I’m a park adjusted premium player”
CB
October 26th, 2012
4:03 pm
Murph, gets healthy and performs back to his past standards and we both shall see. At least you,I may not live long enough.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2012
4:04 pm
Isn’t that what people said about his 2011 campaign? He was hitting in the .100’s for most of July.
I think .230 is Dan’s new norm.
I don’t know if .230 is his new norm, but after watching two years in a row of mega slumps, I have a hard time just “expecting” the next year to be better. Like planning around Beachy, I think it best to assume Uggla will turn in another 2011/2012 campaign and try to get players who can off-set it. Then, if he does do better, it’s icing on the cake.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
4:07 pm
Could put ‘em all together for: “Over the right sample size I’m a park adjusted premium player”
Omigosh. I think this might be a shock-the-world moment. Because what person on planet Earth (other than maybe the Dalai Lama and a couple of Kazahkstanis…OK, and Shaun) would not want at least a half-dozen of those?
We’ll have more money than Bill Gates. And we won’t sell him a shirt, hahahaha!
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 26th, 2012
4:08 pm
Seriously.
Well, I did expect an ERA of 4.20 for Hanson this season, he was worse. Didn’t expect JJ to make it thru June… he didn’t make it thru April!
I may have been a bit unreasonable with my Willingham predictions, but I’m pretty sure that he will fall below his HR and RBI total the last 2 years. He will be under 29 HR and 98 RBI… more so if he joins Atlanta.
Later folks
ncscoots
October 26th, 2012
4:12 pm
I may have been a bit unreasonable with my Willingham predictions,
It’s not the predictions, it’s the incessant and illogical bashing of the guy. You’ve made your point on where you stand, we don’t need to hear it every bleepin’ day.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
October 26th, 2012
4:16 pm
It took you this long? I was fed up after the 4000th mention of Grienke…
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
4:17 pm
.240/.330/.420 – I’d be pretty bummed if that’s what we got from Uggla for the remainder of the deal.
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
4:20 pm
Greinke, Hanson, Willingham, Bourjos – it just gets to be a bit much. Scale it back a tad, TOBF.
Let’s talk about something else. Anything.
Happy that we’re close to when options will be picked up, qualifying offers to be made.
At most, six more days of this stuff. Less if the Giants Fairy Dust isn’t as potent games 3 and 4.
Efrim
October 26th, 2012
4:21 pm
.227/.329/.421, 103 OPS+ in 2 seasons with the Atlanta Braves. Certainly a disappointment.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
October 26th, 2012
4:23 pm
Not to his accountant.
CB
October 26th, 2012
4:24 pm
Murph,on top of that go look at some of the stats for HOF catchers. Brian’s stats compare very favorably to the top catchers and better than most of those catchers at this stage of his career. The major question right now will be will he comeback to being his old self,I believe he will.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
October 26th, 2012
4:25 pm
I just wish somebody would pay me 13 mil to be a mediocrity, because I know how to do that!
CB
October 26th, 2012
4:28 pm
13 million for Hugo to be a mediocre blogger!
BravePack(FreeFan)
October 26th, 2012
4:29 pm
So who wants to talk about Willingham?