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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
1,698 comments Add your comment
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
1:54 pm
Matt Chernoff @RealMattlanta
Edwin Jackson has already given up 4 runs today for the Nats. Good thing Strasburg will be rested and healthy in April..
Interestingly, he hit better at home at Target Field (1.018 OPS) than on the road (.770 OPS).
Very interstingly… he hasn’t hit well on the road since 2010
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
1:55 pm
but lets be careful on designation of leaders on the team.
That’s just it: you don’t “designate” that kind of guy. It’s more elemental than that.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
1:56 pm
DS1-
If they played us half of those 8 and started Lannan they’d probably still have won the division
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
1:56 pm
Do you think MARTA not creating a rail line that was discussed running right outside the ballpark could have contributed to increased attendance? — P-Town Brave
Yes. Absolutely.
Tumbledown
October 10th, 2012
1:57 pm
Frankie – Certainly his comments regarding the wildcard playin game a couple of weeks back didn’t demonstrate strong leadership. Very negative and just maybe it reflected the team’s play on the field Friday night. Maybe it didn’t.
I was not happy when on the day of the wild card game, Chipper mentioned that he knew it was time to go because he was not nervous. Obviously, I am nitpicking as a fan (a very frustrated fan who wants to experience again at least winning a playoff series), but I think he should have kept that to himself and focused his communication on the game at hand and truly wanting to move forward. Are you referring to the same comments, Frankie?
Gone Viral
October 10th, 2012
1:57 pm
“If you don’t walk him, he’s really not that tough an out….”
This is like saying that when people don’t give up homeruns, players are not homerun hitters. Willingham has averaged 61 walks a season for 7 years now. That identifies him as a tough out. His career OBP is higher than any Braves starter other than Chipper managed this year, even Prado (.359).
Also, just to be clear about hitting with two strikes, almost nobody does it well. That’s exactly why it’s so important for pitchers to throw strikes. Prado, who we would all agree is ferocious with two strikes, has career splits of .284/.367/.651.
Even Sheffield, who I was praising earlier for his two strikes prowess, has a career OPS of .694 when hitting with two strikes. Chipper, a first ballot Hall of Famer, is .687. Derek Jeter is .638. Hitting with two strikes humanizes everyone.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
1:58 pm
DOB-
Do you think that idea will ever be revisited or is it even fiscally and architecturally possible now?
Fly On The Wall
October 10th, 2012
2:00 pm
Strasburg…I don’t remember him being all that great facing the 2012 Braves…maybe we have his number? Anyone got the stats?
DAP
October 10th, 2012
2:00 pm
tumbledown I agree that Freeman and/or Heyward should now be the face or faces of the franchise
the only face on my 2013 braves schedule magnet is craig kimbrel, for what its worth.
honestly, the braves have alot of good players.
N8
October 10th, 2012
2:01 pm
I’m not dumb enough DOB to not grasp that “settling” for Minor early in the year likely paid dividends not only this year, but moving forward.
That was a typo mentioning Minor. I’ve always been a fan of his. Like his makeup on the mound. Not sure he’s goinig to be an Ace. I meant to type Jurrjens. Not Minor.
I realize that based on past track record before his injury, Jurrjens was solid. Arguably with Hanson, Lee and Halladay, one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball before the all-star break in 2011.
But since I did pay attention to the spring ball, it was evident that he wasn’t healthy and the fact that they stuck by him early in the season cost them games.
Too many people around here throw out the “it’s early” mentality in April and May and like i said, when you are the chaser not the chasee in a division race, you need things to roll early and often.
Jurrjens is a GREAT example of the now scenario with Mac. If Wren doesn’t have a backup plan in place, in case Mac struggles to recover from surgery (if he has it – still confused why Mac says yes and Wren says “not so fast), because if Mac misses a month or two it could be disaster.
I’m baffled in this day and age when the Cardinals choose to let arguably the best player in baseball walk away and STILL make a run to and in the playoffs, why so many think that mac is the be all end all of this team’s success.
Too much blind homerism. Good dude. Good player. Not healthy. Big contract. It’s not that difficult.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
2:01 pm
GV-
Yeah but as proven by 2011 and 2012 and our RISP BA and other numbers, the team didn’t have issue taking walks…it was getting the runners in, and his BA, K rate, and everything else doesn’t really excite me….
We need a middle of the order guy who can hit 280+ and still hit the HR and drive in the runs…
We have too few contact hitters now and gotta consider losing Chipper, another guy who walks as much as he strikes out….
I just can’t see adding another 140 strike out, low batting average guy as a good thing….
CB
October 10th, 2012
2:02 pm
scoots and Efrim, for the life of me I cannot recall Peter’s new name here. He does not participate with any conversations,usually comes on with a question for DOB or other bloggers. He comes on again I will write it down and tell you guys or maybe nolie knows.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
2:04 pm
DOB-
Do you think that idea will ever be revisited or is it even fiscally and architecturally possible now? — P-Town Brave
They screwed up royally on that one. In today’s economy, no way I see it getting done. Any idea how much that would cost? I’ve heard it guesstimated at $1 billion. Could’ve got it built with Olympic money when they had chance.
We can’t even pass a penny sales tax down here to build/improve highways, rail, etc. You really think this polarized area, where everyone seems to have their own agenda, could really agree to fund a MARTA spur to Turner Field? Ha. We still see building more highways or toll lanes as the answer to our horrendous traffic. We’re not exactly cutting-edge down here when it comes to this kind of stuff.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
2:04 pm
But who’s to say that the pitcher taking those [Strasburg] starts wouldn’t have done OK.
Might have done fine. But you also have to factor in the mental part of not having the guy. Gio has to front the rotation from the get-go, the rest of the rotation is stepping up a slot and may not be in as big a comfort zone, and like that.
In other words, it’s more than just the tit-for-tat record of another guy pitching in the rotation slot; it’s the synergy developed by having a stud at the top who not only wants to be there but also pitches as if he belongs there. Not having that is a very real loss.
I know some here would decry the very thought that such a thing might possibly, maybe, could have, had an effect on the actual physical abilities of the other pitchers, LOL, but it certainly appears that it did so in September, no?
Frankie
October 10th, 2012
2:05 pm
Tumbledown- no different comments but I know what you are speaking of as well. He mentioned(might have been O’Briens column) how stupid he thought the format was(yes everybody agrees but not the point) and how the playin game was unfair I guess.
Just say your excited about playing in a playoff game(since 2005) and excited about playing in front of a huge Friday night crowd of over 50K.
Not going all Tony Robbins here but it just reeked with negativity. He should have been above all of that.
Carl Farvman
October 10th, 2012
2:07 pm
“Matt Chernoff @RealMattlanta
Edwin Jackson has already given up 4 runs today for the Nats. Good thing Strasburg will be rested and healthy in April..”
Yeah,who takes Turnoff seriously.Desperately trying to get the coverted Sunday 7AM to 10AM ESPN radio gig. If he ever does, I will actually start to listen daily to Rush Limbaugh.
Gone Viral
October 10th, 2012
2:07 pm
“We need a middle of the order guy who can hit 280+ and still hit the HR and drive in the runs…”
We clearly disagree about batting average as important, especially when we list arbitrary delimiters as requisite. Willingham just hit 35 homers and 110 RBIs on the heels of 29/98. He does damage, he’s cost effective and he doesn’t get out. As Moneyball indicates, the key aspect of baseball is not getting three outs. Until that happens, anything is possible. Bringing in hitters who spike pitch counts and get on base is the way to win.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
2:08 pm
Hitting with two strikes humanizes everyone.
In other words, the gods’ feet of clay are respectively labeled “Strike One!” and “Strike Two!”
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
2:13 pm
N8, N8, N8….
Jurrjens is a GREAT example of the now scenario with Mac.
You can’t be serious.
If Wren doesn’t have a backup plan in place, in case Mac struggles to recover from surgery (if he has it – still confused why Mac says yes and Wren says “not so fast), because if Mac misses a month or two it could be disaster.
Do you really think the Braves would pick up his option and not have a Plan B if he were going to miss significant time after surgery?
Carl Farvman
October 10th, 2012
2:13 pm
“We can’t even pass a penny sales tax down………….”
Yeah,a penny for every dollar spent. Another 1% on top of all other taxes paid. Politicians and related advocates repeatedly referred to it as just a penny. I suppose I can refer to my 25% federal tax outlay as just 25 cents.
Pal
October 10th, 2012
2:14 pm
Of course we aren’t cutting edge here when it comes to traffic or ANYTHING ELSE. After all, this here is one of them thar conservative places. Race will enter into MARTA… paranoid, fearful reactionaries will react viscerally to issue rather than using intelligence… But that’s juust the way it is these here parts.
JP Bravo
October 10th, 2012
2:16 pm
BINGO, PAL… Progress ain’t in the vocabulary here.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
2:18 pm
because if Mac misses a month or two it could be disaster.
Yet, many here are willing to see him miss six months a year. Forever. Replaced with a cheap, no-lumber C while hoping that a suitable bat could be found to replace his offense. Forgetting, of course, that there is a roster cost to that sort of move, leaving one less spot open for improvement, rather than replacement.
Venice Jim
October 10th, 2012
2:19 pm
Tyler Kepner @TylerKepner
Wins Above Replacement, a stat I respect and use, does sound kind of crazy when you try to explain it to Frank Robinson.
Carl Farvman
October 10th, 2012
2:20 pm
The thing with Mac is that he is a huge ‘physical health’ risk. His body is breaking down and his best days are well behind him. A lot of money to pay out to a guy who hs been very spotty the past 2 seasons. And as you can see from this past season, things are only getting worse. He’d love to have that option picked up so he could relax regardless of how things work out for him physically.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
2:22 pm
JP and Pal
Everything has an economic cost. If the cost can’t be justified, then the project won’t happen.
It’s the Big Bird Theory. If it’s worth borrowing money to do it, then do it.
Like DOB stated, should have been addressed back during the Olympic’s planning. (I’m not from Atlanta, so I could be talking out of my azz and not realize it.)
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
2:22 pm
Nationals were 22-10 with a 3.33 ERA in their last 32 games with Strasburg on roster. Before today, they were 14-12 with a 3.93 ERA since shutting him down.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
2:22 pm
Wins Above Replacement, a stat I respect and use, does sound kind of crazy when you try to explain it to Frank Robinson.
Thirty years ago, one probably would have been lucky to leave that conversation alive.
Frank has mellowed a little, since then. Probably now only bestows a pitying look.
Ric Flair to Rigt
October 10th, 2012
2:23 pm
The cards are the luckiest team in sports history!!!!
Tumbledown
October 10th, 2012
2:23 pm
P-Town – We have too few contact hitters now and gotta consider losing Chipper, another guy who walks as much as he strikes out….
Cound not agree more. With Uggla no doubt staying, we need those contact hitters with occasional power. Of course, these guys don’t grow on trees.
Tumbledown
October 10th, 2012
2:24 pm
Could, not cound! Yikes
jfp
October 10th, 2012
2:26 pm
DOB, in case you missed it (kind of easy to scroll past some of Shaun’s comments). But the genius finally admitted he was clueless.
“Shaun
October 10th, 2012
1:27 pm
“We Trout supporters”
Awful scary there Shaun….
Please, STEP BACK FROM THE KOOL-AID
Huh? What’s scary about thinking Trout deserves the AL MVP? That means you’re part of some cult or something and it’s scary?” I’m not following.”
Tumbledown
October 10th, 2012
2:26 pm
How does everyone think the Braves’ brass would have handled Strasburg? I would not have wanted him shut down.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
2:27 pm
Jurrjens is a GREAT example of the now scenario with Mac.
This is the problem with looking at stats that convention and tradition tells you are important without regard to what goes in to stats, and paying attention to the ones that actually measure and indicate something that is useful.
Jurrjens wasn’t as great a pitcher as McCann was a catcher, even when Jurrjens’ results and some of his stats looked impressive. When Jurrjens got hurt, he got worse as a pitcher because of it and also his results started to match his performance and his talent level. Even if Jurrjens had remained healthy, it would have been unlikely he would be as good as he was at his best.
McCann is completely different. We know McCann is a great player. Even if he’s not the same, he’s still going to be pretty darn good. It’s not like McCann was doing it with smoke and mirrors when he was at his best, like Jurrjens.
CB
October 10th, 2012
2:32 pm
Everybody here seems to have a locked in stone opinion on what we should do with McCann, really I think it is silly to have an opinion until we know the depth of his injury. The thing is I sure don’t want to sign him to any long term contract if it is a major injury, right now I agree with DOB it seems we are getting conflicting reports from Wren and Brian.Patience,grasshoppers.
Murph
October 10th, 2012
2:34 pm
Signing BMac to a longterm contract isn’t even on the table now, though. The team has an entire year to decide what to do on that front.
The question is whether to pick up his option or not, which I can’t believe is even being debated.
Venice Jim
October 10th, 2012
2:34 pm
Have facts before forming opinions? People do that?
N8
October 10th, 2012
2:34 pm
“You can’t be serious”
A little serious, DOB.
We all talked about depth. Perhaps if Beachy doesn’t go down, there is no need to go get Maholm. In fact, I guess it’s pretty simple. they wouldn’t have done it or entertained getting Dempster (thank god that didn’t happen).
But with both Jurrjens and Hanson, they assumed (at least publicly) that they were rolling with those guys with the young guys ready if needed.
So, I guess the young guys were the backup plan and then when Beachy went down, they exercised that backup plan…. trading for another arm.
“Do you really think the Braves would pick up his option and not have a Plan B if he were going to miss significant time after surgery?”
I hope not. Unlike some on here, I have faith in Wren to do what needs to be done and put Fredi in a good position to have options. I have also liked his willingness to not let nostalgia get in his way of making tough decisions. I blasted him for letting Smoltz go in the immediate moments upon hearing of it. But came to agree that once we hear his side of the story (and in hindsight seeing how Smoltz struggled)…. it was the wise move. Same with Glavine. At the time it was a bold move and it worked.
hard to say the fortunes of that team had Glavine been called up and Hanson stuck to toil in the minors the rest of that year?
I just worry that the “backup” plan will be too little too late, if it comes to spring training and then it’s evident that Mac is out.
Who wants to trade from a standpoint of desperation? And believe me if Ross and Boscan are the only two catchers on the roster come March and it’s made known that Mac is going to miss a month or two (or longer)? Wren WILL be desperate.
I just want to know that he’s at least entertaining the THOUGHT that he might have to move on from mac if this shoulder is serious.
Venice Jim
October 10th, 2012
2:35 pm
Jayson Stark @jaysonst
#Nationals now 0 for 6 with runners in scoring position today, 3 for 22 in this series. They can’t say it’s the shadows today – yet.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
2:35 pm
Jordan Zimmerman and Edwin Jackson would have still pitched in the series, even if the Nats had Strasburg.
Venice Jim
October 10th, 2012
2:36 pm
Wow, Carpenter…
JP Bravo
October 10th, 2012
2:41 pm
One thing is for sure… we somehow need to remove the black hole (Uggla) from this line up. The pattern is clear… for a large portion of the first half of the year he has to “find his swing”. In time he comes around during the second half of the ywar and gives the team several weeks of fireworks. Even if we get a utility player to replace obese Hinske.
DAP
October 10th, 2012
2:43 pm
CB I think it is silly to have an opinion until we know the depth of his injury.
ditto. that will tell us how long he will be out, ect. if he is going to miss a big chunk of the season, i could see the braves declining the option and trying to re negotiate it.
Jimmy
October 10th, 2012
2:45 pm
Most of what you read on here is someones opinion.
Some based on facts, but most not. Like “my projected 2013 pitching rotation” or “we need to trade for ______”.
I brought up the McCann option because I felt it should be discussed.
It shouldn’t be picked up based on what he has done for us in the past, it’s for what he can do for us in the future. And that is questionable at this point.
We don’t know what kind of a season he’ll have in 2013 or even how much he’ll play.
Or I can say “I think Heap will rebound to his old self next year.”
Based on nothing.
Murph
October 10th, 2012
2:45 pm
Just out of curiosity, for those who want to see Uggla go… how do you propose the team does that? Who is going to take him and that contract? How much money do you throw in?
With Prado moving back to 2B, who do you target to take over at 3B, and in LF, now that you have two holes to fill instead of just one?
Carl Farvman
October 10th, 2012
2:46 pm
The Cards picked up Carpenter fully aware that he would be DL’d the first full season. He, Wainright and a collection of others over the years have been huge. Management will miss on something occasionally, but have a knack for making very shewd moves, most of which fans had no clue they were coming.Usually comes out of nowhere without the usual rumor mill in play. That’s their style.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
2:51 pm
Chris Carpenter can roll out of bed, drink his coffee and pitch a shutout in the playoffs as if it were his daily routine.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
2:52 pm
Or I can say “I think Heap will rebound to his old self next year.” Based on nothing.
Is it “nothing”, though? Seems that a track record counts for “something”. Certainly, it seems more logical that he reverts to his norms than that he suffers some career-ending health issue before hitting 30. Unless I’m reading all this stuff poorly, and folks think his performance this year is due to a lack of skill rather than a lack of health.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
2:52 pm
Heyward is finalist for Hank Aaron Award
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/10/10/heyward-a-finalist-for-hank-aaron-award/
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
2:54 pm
Uggla is a black hole? I get he’s been disappointing, I really do. But by most offensive numbers (that actually measure things that happened on the field that are meaningful to baseball offense), he was still in the middle of the pack among secondbasemen in overall offensive production.
I would even be fine with trading Uggla, I would even welcome it in the right scenario. I’m not a huge fan of the contract. I’ve even expressed that the Braves should at least explore a trade. But he’s not a black hole.
His situations reminds me a lot of the Heyward situation last year in some ways. Many of you are looking at the batting average and what he wasn’t, ignoring his overall offensive value and his talent level.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
2:56 pm
I can say “I think Heap will rebound to his old self next year.” Based on nothing.
Well, throughout baseball history great players who had a down year at a rather young age are typically hurt and, if they get fixed and healed, they usually bounce back. There is even a smoking gun with McCann. We know he was hurt, unless the Braves are lying about that, for some reason.
Fly On The Wall
October 10th, 2012
2:56 pm
Strasburg VS Braves 2012….ERA 4.10….not exactly stellar.
phil
October 10th, 2012
3:00 pm
The love for Mac here knows no bounds….
8 months of abject futility should just be ignored. Maybe he WILL bounce on back, but the leash is growing shorter by the strikeout.
JP Bravo
October 10th, 2012
3:01 pm
To move Uggla, they’d need to swallow some of his salary and trade with a team needing power badly….. like the Giants.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
3:02 pm
I understand that Uggla has been a major disappointment for the Braves. But a black hole that must be removed?
I’m sure glad some bloggers are working for Frank Wren!
We’d sure as heck give up on a lot of players after a bad year or so.
Lew
October 10th, 2012
3:02 pm
Evil Shaun? No, not evil, just highly speculative, everchanging and quite honestly, some of we dinosaurs are getting sick and tired of having your views (and those of the “if it hasn’t been figured recently it doesn’t count crowd) shoved up our (er, down our throats) and constantly treated like anything that was thought to be real prior to a few years ago was totally spurious or deluded thinking.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:02 pm
In other words, it’s more than just the tit-for-tat record of another guy pitching in the rotation slot; it’s the synergy developed by having a stud at the top who not only wants to be there but also pitches as if he belongs there. Not having that is a very real loss.
I know some here would decry the very thought that such a thing might possibly, maybe, could have, had an effect on the actual physical abilities of the other pitchers, LOL, but it certainly appears that it did so in September, no?
You mean, Tim Hudson, Kris Medlen and Mike Minor isn’t going to strike fear into the hearts of opposing lineups, scoots? No. I can’t believe this.
Fredo
October 10th, 2012
3:03 pm
holy good grief the Nats are stinking it up this entire series with runners on base, if they don’t start hitting and real quick like … they’re done
Murph
October 10th, 2012
3:03 pm
To move Uggla, they’d need to swallow some of his salary and trade with a team needing power badly….. like the Giants.
The Braves need power badly… so why not just keep him? Oh, yeah, because he can’t hit.
So… then why would the Giants take him?
cricket
October 10th, 2012
3:04 pm
Cards have made some shrewd moves but they were also lucky to get to playoffs in 06 and 11. but once they get there, their excellent pitching and timely hitting carries them far.
playoffs can be a crapshoot, but that 90’s yankees’ formula of very good pitching, timely hitting (i know, i know, clutch is something that only people who have to drive stick need to worry about) and great closer still seems to work very well in postseason.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:05 pm
Strasburg/Zimmermann/Gonzalez
Hamels/Lee/Halladay
Dickey/Niese/Harvey
Cueto/Latos/Bailey
Wainwright/Carpenter/Garcia
Cain/Bumgarner/Lincecum
Kennedy/Cahill/Miley
———————————————————
Medlen/Hudson/Minor
JP Bravo
October 10th, 2012
3:06 pm
NOT A BLACK HOLE OFFENSIVELY? I am not sure what you have been watching Shaun, but until he was moved to the back of the lineup, pitchers pitched around batters to get to him. I cannot recall over thepast two years how many times threats were thwarted when he hit “TOWERING” high pops to shallow left field or the short stop. Offensively, he’s a HUGE black hole.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:07 pm
Not that were worse, just the thought that “we’re all good” in the rotation is questionable. And maybe it’s because we have holes in the outfield. That’s fine. But the rotation is far from one of the best in the league, imo.
JP Bravo
October 10th, 2012
3:07 pm
Teams do that all the time… consider change of setting… change of batting coach philosophies, etc. in dealing players who are in slumps…
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:08 pm
Freese doubled to right, Molina to third. (91/fastball)
I mean, this is just constant with them. Their offense is scary good.
Lemke's Knuckler
October 10th, 2012
3:09 pm
McCann is a great baseball player and one of the better pure hitters in the league. Pick up his option and if he’s healthy, he’ll play 130+ games and produce his typically All-Star caliber stats. If he’s not, insurance picks up a good bit of his salary and Wren can use that money for an early or mid-season acquisition. Trading him at this point would be asinine. Declining his option would be the very definition of insanity. That only leaves one choice, pick up the option and see how it goes.
Jimmy
October 10th, 2012
3:09 pm
ncscoots – McCann has been hit with the injury bug the last season and a half. He still has the “skills”.
My concern is how much he be able to play.
Lemke's Knuckler
October 10th, 2012
3:12 pm
DOB,
Wren mentioned extending the trade deadline to August 15 in the interview. Is that something that’s up for discussion at the GM Meetings?
DAP
October 10th, 2012
3:14 pm
JP Bravo Offensively, he’s a HUGE black hole.
sorry, but shaun’s right. uggla walked nearly 100 times this season. he wasnt exactly an “easy out” although it would have been nice to slug above .400.
Ah-fongul
October 10th, 2012
3:14 pm
I know it’s impossible to get rid of Uggla playing like he has with that salary… but man.. it would be nice.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
3:16 pm
You mean, Tim Hudson, Kris Medlen and Mike Minor isn’t going to strike fear into the hearts of opposing lineups
Hudson has probably earned some fear, because it can’t be much fun figuring out which of the eleventy-eight different pitches he’s gonna throw you at any particular spot. The other guys, no, I don’t think they’ve earned any “fear” yet.
Ah-fongul
October 10th, 2012
3:18 pm
DAP – he had a good eye at the plate during the second half of the year especially. But eh, I’d say he was MIA in offensively for the most part of two years
MFin04
October 10th, 2012
3:18 pm
“uggla walked nearly 100 times this season. he wasnt exactly an “easy out” although it would have been nice to slug above .400.”
Exactly. Walking while not having the ability to hit is problematic. Gotta be able to hit and walk in order to be a complete player. Otherwise he needs to be hitting 2nd in the lineup with the sole purpose of getting on base and scoring runs.
As for the Cardinals. They’ve gotta have one of the weakest rotations, but their offense just comes alive in the post-season.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
3:18 pm
Lew, so it’s not about trying to gain as much knowledge as possible. It’s more about going against anything from the the “if it hasn’t been figured recently it doesn’t count” crowd.
For me, I just want the facts, some evidence, some logic and I want to form an opinion based on all that. I could care less if something was discovered or figured yesterday or 100 years ago. If folks started figuring on-base percentage long ago (which they did), I’ll trust it over any stat, new or old, that doesn’t really get to the heart of what a player did on the field or doesn’t really measure anything useful at all.
To me it’s not about whether a metric or a concept is “sabermetric” or old or new. It’s about whether it’s a concept that has some evidence and reason behind it, has withstood scrutiny or is a metric that actually measures what a player does on the field.
But folks often have to make up this phony religious war about sabermetrics versus scouts, new versus old, etc.
phil, you know what else should not be ignored? The fact that we know beyond a shadow of a doubt that McCann was hurt and that almost every fairly young player in the history of baseball who had a down year and was hurt in that down year bounced back to some degree or another.
cricket, timely hitting, to the degree that it’s different from overall hitting, is largely the crapshoot working in your favor. The players are going up there trying their hardest to get on and hit the ball hard, if they get a pitch to handle, every time. It’s largely randomness whether they happen to succeed with runners on or in high-leverage situations, etc. It’s kind of like the Braves’ Monday thing. But we realize the Monday thing was just coincidence. For some reason we ignore the possibility that hitting or failing to hit with RISP, etc. is coincidence. We want to believe that players can will themselves to get a hit at certain times (and have less will at other times).
Ah-fongul
October 10th, 2012
3:19 pm
DAP – he had a good eye at the plate during the second half of the year especially. But eh, I’d say he was MIA offensively for the most part of two years
Ah-fongul
October 10th, 2012
3:19 pm
DAP – he had a good eye at the plate during the second half of the year especially. But eh, I’d say he was MIA offensively for the most part of two years
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
3:19 pm
I know it’s impossible to get rid of Uggla playing like he has with that salary… but man.. it would be nice.
I’m afraid that many folks here expressing this sentiment would be the ones howling over such a trade, when he cranks out 100 dingers in the next three years of that contract.
Lew
October 10th, 2012
3:21 pm
Shaun **** off.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
3:21 pm
Cueto out of NLDS and NLCS
cricket
October 10th, 2012
3:24 pm
this looks freaky –
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2012/10/10/picture-of-the-day-bryce-harpers-red-contact-lenses/
Fan2
October 10th, 2012
3:25 pm
ncscoots: Yah… if another season goes by with the same pattern of hitting by Uggla will you say the same thing??
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:26 pm
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
Alex Rodriguez is in the No. 3 spot in the Yankees’ lineup for tonight’s game
As he should be. Give me a better lineup construction for the Yankees and I’ll listen….but there isn’t one. Teixeira and Swisher have struggles just as much in the playoffs and Granderson stinks right now. Unless of course a manager would be willing to bat 50 year old Raul Ibanez 3rd in the order of a New York Yankee lineup…….
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
3:29 pm
Exactly. Walking while not having the ability to hit is problematic. Gotta be able to hit and walk in order to be a complete player.
Being a tough out is where it starts. There is plenty of value in that. Of course the lack of slugging made him a mediocre hitter instead of a very good or great hitter. But he provided decent offense at his position.
The biggest problems for the Braves on offense were McCann (because of injury) and awful offensive contribution from the shortstop position on the season as a whole. Shortstop is a position that doesn’t require a lot of offense to keep the team above replacement level there but the Braves were pretty bad there, because of Janish and Pastornicky. I do agree that Uggla could have helped make up for these deficiencies had he slugged better. But even McCann had a normal McCann season and had the shorstop fill-ins hit at all, the Braves offense would have been maybe top 5 in the league, comfortably.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:30 pm
Hudson has probably earned some fear, because it can’t be much fun figuring out which of the eleventy-eight different pitches he’s gonna throw you at any particular spot. The other guys, no, I don’t think they’ve earned any “fear” yet.
And that’s the entire problem I have with the rotation. It has the potential to be so much more with the addition of a frontline guy like Shields. Shields/Hudson/Medlen? Now we’re talking.
Bat Prado leadoff, get a banger in LF and skimp on CF. That’s the type of team I’d put together. And yes, I’d think long and hard about trading Teheran in the right deal if it got me Big Game James.
N8
October 10th, 2012
3:30 pm
What a crock your 3:05 is Efrim.
After July 31st the Medlen/Minor duo might have been the best in baseball.
Show me ANY one of those starters on the other team that could have done better given Medlen’s cicrumstances to pitch around in that Cardinals game?
Hard to overcome 3 costly errors and a lineup that simply couldn’t get the job done…. you know… other than the backup catcher hitting a 2-run HR the next pitch after he should have been struck out.
Cy Young would have lost that game.
I fail to believe our pitching is the reason this team didn’t win the division or advance past the Cards.
If you or anybody else does, you’re more dillusional than me thinking it might be a good idea to move past Mac.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
3:30 pm
Yah… if another season goes by with the same pattern of hitting by Uggla will you say the same thing??
Probably not.
Because there would be only two years left on the contract.
DawgDad
October 10th, 2012
3:32 pm
“Probably a one-word description is emptiness”
Brooks Conrad. September 2011. Infield Fly. Boy, this “emptiness” is getting VERY old. I don’t expect the Braves to win it all every year, but they have clearly been engineered for the repeated late let-down.
The two highest paid position players blew up the play-in game defensively. One is history, the other a migraine headache of deteriorating talent and escalating cost.
The middle of the lineup was age 23-40-23. Predictably, these non-prime players couldn’t deliver with needed consistency. The starting shortstop going into and coming out of Spring Training was an untested rookie who proved barely capable of hanging on to a utility role. Wren has been unable to land a competent right-handed power hitter for the middle of the lineup for HOW MANY YEARS now? For about $7 million the Braves allowed Adam LaRoche to anchor the lineup for the Nats, then fell four games short of them in the standings. The Braves paid a pitcher $10 million NOT to pitch for them.
A lot needs to be done, but my advice is simple: Build with strength up the middle. Put Prado back on second base. Take care of the catching situation; this team needs a third viable catcher (or possibly a whole new solution if McCann is out and Ross walks). Find a center fielder who can bat leadoff without breaking the bank.
Otherwise, the team needs a right-handed power hitter to bat between Heyward and Freeman, and it needs a new bench. Don’t sign aging dinosaurs to big or long-term contracts – PERIOD. Focus on younger talent and developing talent, because the 23-year old core and the young pitching will need some help down the road.
Uggla? Get rid of Dan Uggla or allow him compete for a spot at third ($8 million-plus for four months of sub-Mendoza is not conducive to winning). His days as a second-basemen should be history.
The good news is the focus is not pitching. There’s enough there to compete in 2013, into October.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:32 pm
But even McCann had a normal McCann season and had the shorstop fill-ins hit at all, the Braves offense would have been maybe top 5 in the league, comfortably.
Do folks adjust for ballpark on offense as a team? Not joking. I see a lot of the top offenses in the league coming from hitters parks. Be interested to see what the OPS+ was for the Braves as a team in comparison to the rest of the National League. Turner Field is no paradise.
Fredo
October 10th, 2012
3:33 pm
“Medlen/Hudson/Minor”
Meds/Beachy/Minor are going to give the old Oakland Big 3 a run for their money
Lew
October 10th, 2012
3:33 pm
I agree with scoots on Uggla. If the trend continues next year THEN you try to unload him when you won’t be eating a stupid amount of money and the return might balance it out somewhat. But it’s not like he’s old or in poor condition. You have to see if it was just a poor year.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
3:33 pm
Look at it this way: If coincidence/randomness/luck can lead to a team playing so far out of their norms on a certain day of the week, isn’t it very possible for a coincidence/randomness/luck to be the culprit of a player or a team succeeding or failing to an unusual degree in specific situations only, like with RISP or lot of others?
Yet we completely discount coincidence in those situations in order to make reality fit in to our story, our narrative of what is going on, facts be damned, it’s the narrative that matters, not reality.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
3:35 pm
Unless of course a manager would be willing to bat 50 year old Raul Ibanez 3rd
Maddon would
N8
October 10th, 2012
3:35 pm
“Otherwise he needs to be hitting 2nd in the lineup with the sole purpose of getting on base and scoring runs.”
I said it many times to the bloggers who wanted to tout Uggla’s OBP as reason that he is having a good season.
Bat him leadoff and go from there. Batting him second would be more idiotic than batting the K machine known as Bret Boone in the 2-hole all year. Prado at least takes the ball the other way so he’s a good fit at 2.
Bat Uggla leadoff and let him walk all day long. Hell, DEMAND that he bunts once in a while. He hustles. Probably beat a few of them out. LOL.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:36 pm
After July 31st the Medlen/Minor duo might have been the best in baseball.
Two months of a sample DOES NOT mean that these two are ready to front a rotation. Give me a flocking break, N8. I wouldn’t take those two over any of the top two above other than Zona and that’s even questionable.
That puts the Braves middle of the pack in starting pitching, and I don’t think it changes much when we add a 3rd or 4th pitcher on the staff into the equation.
Never said pitching costed us anything, but it isn’t as strong as some folks here like to think. People don’t like to come out of their caves and look around the league once and a while for comparison.
N8
October 10th, 2012
3:37 pm
“Otherwise he needs to be hitting 2nd in the lineup with the sole purpose of getting on base and scoring runs.”
I said it many times to the bloggers who wanted to tout Uggla’s OBP as reason that he is having a good season.
Bat him leadoff and go from there. Batting him second would be more idiotic than batting the K machine known as Bret Boone in the 2-hole all year. Prado at least takes the ball the other way so he’s a good fit at 2.
Bat Uggla leadoff and let him walk all day long. Hell, DEMAND that he bunts once in a while. He hustles. Probably beat a few of them out. LOL. Tell me that as a 3B you want to play “in” on Uggla. Most wouldn’t.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
3:37 pm
Lew, the thing is Uggla’s year wasn’t all that poor. It was just disappointing and of course many are going to confuse that with “poor.”
And I agree that they shouldn’t be looking to merely unload Uggla, per se. They should only trade him if they can get the right return, and I’m confident that the Braves’ front office will only move him in that scenario. That scenario is probably unlikely though I wouldn’t be surprised if it’s possible and it happens.
He’s not old, but he’s not at an age where you should expect his skills to improve (but there’s nothing drastically wrong with his skills).
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
3:38 pm
After July 31st the Medlen/Minor duo might have been the best in baseball.
Half a season of pitching (14-16 starts) doesn’t qualify those guys as being 1-2s yet.
Fan2
October 10th, 2012
3:38 pm
“A” poor year? Did we forget about his first poor year?
N8
October 10th, 2012
3:38 pm
“People don’t like to come out of their caves and look around the league once and a while for comparison”
yup. that’s me. Big ole’ homer who thinks EVERYBODY on the Braves is the best.
Like our catcher.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
3:38 pm
Cardinals should be on the verge of sweeping the Nationals right now if not for a fluky base hit from Tyler Moore.