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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
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P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
11:43 am
Murph-
Well, lets see…they have the best young pitching in the AL, quite a bit that was acquired through trades and the draft and excelled in a very short time through the minors and into the majors, a few players in Moss, Gomes, and Crisp who you could say they picked up off the scrap heap….then you add what I considered an AWFUL trade on Boston’s part to send them Reddick who has been MVP worthy on both sides of the field, then you add to that a starting to get healthy Stephen Drew, a good back end w/ Grant Balfour, and their move of paying out for Cespedes given proper scouting and then moving him to LF….
They’ve done just about EVERYTHING right this year….
Not sure whether all of those things would work any given year….but it certainly has this year….
But if Beane doesn’t get executive of the year for putting this all together into a 94 win team when most prognosticators said they’d be lucky to win 65…..people are crazy!
DAP
October 10th, 2012
11:43 am
dadgum McCann will not be in Atlanta in 2014. We have cheap options who are better catchers within the organization
the only catcher in the organization capable of playing in MLB is a free agent this year. so, i woulndt be sure we have anyone that will step in.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
11:43 am
Dodgers outfield prospect Yasel Puig will miss the Arizona Fall League due to a staph infection of his right elbow.
Shame… Hope he recovers and has a good year next season.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
11:43 am
It shouldn’t be a long-term issue, but it’s a shame we won’t get to see what Puig can do against a higher level of competition. The 21-year-old Cuban import batted .354/.442/.634 with five homers between Rookie ball and High-A this year.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
11:43 am
Here is Bethancourt’s write up:
Bethancourt’s strong throwing arm may be the best among minor league catchers. He regularly posts pop times around 1.8 seconds and he threw out 39 percent of SL basestealers. A broken hand in early August ended his season and prevented a showdown between him and Hamilton.
Bethancourt moves well behind the plate and is a good receiver, but he’s going to have to improve offensively to become Brian McCann’s heir apparent in Atlanta. Bethancourt chases too many pitches and often gets himself out. When he does make contact, it produces mostly soft line drives because he lacks strength and loft in his swing.
Fly On The Wall
October 10th, 2012
11:44 am
Infante 2012
AVG HR RBI OBP
.274 12 53 .300
Uggla 2012
AVG HR RBI OBP
.220 19 78 .348
I loved Omar while he was with the Braves, but he has not been the same since he left Atlanta and Uggla has not been the same since he left Florida. While his avg and hr are way down this year, at least Dan has been getting on base and scoring and his RBIs are still way better than Omars too.
Looking at the offense you can NOT say Infante is better.
Maybe with the glove….but not the bat.
Uggla is not doing what we hoped for but I still like Dan better and we can still hope that Dan can get back to something closer to normal production next year. One more thing….I know Dan is not the greatest fielder….but I watched him make some great plays this year and he is at least average in that department and he tries as hard as anyone I’ve ever watched. Just don’t try to take him out of the game after getting beaned…lol
cricket
October 10th, 2012
11:45 am
how many people are willing to bet A’s get back to playoffs next year?
will they win the division? i don’t think so.
will they win one of 1-and-done WCs? maybe, but personally i won’t bet on it.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
11:46 am
Efrim-
Well, when you’ve had 5 of the best fielders in the game out there, you don’t exactly need to strike everyone out…..
Hopefully that doesn’t make a drastic turn losing Bourn and moving Prado to the IF, but then again….where did that really get us when we couldn’t put runs on the board?
George_George
October 10th, 2012
11:46 am
Is it just me or do others notice the blog this morning is VERY slow submitting posts and refreshing page? My computer is fast on other websites.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
11:46 am
Take away a productive McCann bat and you’ll have a middle of the order with little room for slumps. That extra bat with sock lengthens the lineup beyond the six hole and prevents the pitcher from counting on the bottom third for easy innings. Take away a productive Uggla bat, also, and it’s simple to pitch around Heyward and Freeman.
Unless you think the team can secure run-production and thump from a new corner OF, a new corner IF, and a new CF, it isn’t very smart to start discarding players with bubblegum cards such as McCann and Uggla have.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
11:47 am
McCann will not be in Atlanta in 2014. We have cheap options who are better catchers within the organization
Hard for me to think that he will be too. But things can change in a years time. He can have a solid season and may not ask for something outrageous – five years, 70 million – on par with the other catchers contracts.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
11:47 am
Shaun, your 4:18 comment was so arrogant and condescending, I’ve had enough of you for awhile. I think your attitude goes over better with the audience you have at Capitol Avenue. You know, the “non-mainstream” media outlet that works so much harder than the rest of us who follow “lazy” narratives.
Have fun over there, you high-brow baseball guy. You know the game better than any player, manager, coach, scout, broadcaster or “mainstream” beat reporter alive. (Just ask your minions … or yourself.) Amazing that you don’t make a lot of money working in some capacity within the game — like Bill James, for instance — or at least covering it in a high-profile position.
But then, I guess when you’re so far ahead of the rest of us, it takes time for the world to catch up to you. It must be difficult being so hyper-intelligent in this world and especially in profession or avocation (I say that only because I honestly don’t know which applies to you) that you’ve chosen. NASA or some intelligence organization might be better suited for a man of your intellect.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
11:47 am
Efrim-
Send the kid to the gym all winter w/ Uggla……he’ll get some lift and separate to that swing
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
11:49 am
Well, when you’ve had 5 of the best fielders in the game out there, you don’t exactly need to strike everyone out…..
Still, the majority of elite starters in the sport throw harder than 88-91mph. If you’re throwing that hard, your command and offspeed pitches have to be superb – and maybe Gilmartin’s will be….we’ll see.
kenhotlanta
October 10th, 2012
11:49 am
Hillbilly: Thanks for that cool link.
Dadgum....
October 10th, 2012
11:51 am
Uggla is a passable average defensive 2nd baseman. He is not the hitter or defender either infante or Prado is day in and day out. We removed both those players from the infield to insert Uggla. I’m sorry but that was just flat out a stupid move by Wren. I don’t care how many times you analyze it.
Murph
October 10th, 2012
11:51 am
cricket, who would have bet on the A’s going into this year? Not a soul. Yet, here they are. Still playing.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
11:52 am
Infante (17 errors, 0.5 dWAR). He scored/drove in 98 runs.
Uggla (12 errors, 1.0 dWAR). He scored/drove in 126 runs.
DAP
October 10th, 2012
11:53 am
p-town They’ve done just about EVERYTHING right this year….
not to mention they are making the most of platoons all over the field.
Hiawassee
October 10th, 2012
11:54 am
Great season for the Braves. Only one winner at the end of the journey, but there is nothing to be ashamed of. It will be an interesting winter, to say the least. Let’s hope that they make the right decision on McCann. Center field and left field are the positions that need to be filled immediately, and they really don’t need to overpay, especially in CF. Bourn is going to command a hefty salary, but will be other options. One more quality veteran starting pitcher wouldn’t hurt, either. Make sure you keep David Ross. All the guy does is produce when called upon. This team and organization is in great shape, both in the minors and at the major league level. Fredi Gonzalez has done a terrific job his first two years and the helm. There is a LOT to be said for managing with dignity and class as well. Don’t lose the faith. We’ll get them next year.
ncscoots
October 10th, 2012
11:56 am
and classic, smooth lefthanded delivery.
I feel a new Gilmartin nickname coming on.
benchwarmer
October 10th, 2012
11:56 am
Chipper didn’t have the legs anymore to run or field effectively. Yes he was out on the last at bat. BMac is very iffy due to injuries one after the other last couple of years. Expect him to be offered as trade bait. Wren doesn’t want his trade bait even mentioned in the same room with the word surgery. Uggla is one that would be nice to be rid of. Way too inconsistant and always has been. Expect him to be offered . Hanson will definately be offered. JJ because he has fallen so far will probably just be let go. The young core of this team and starting pitching are less likely to be given up but the right deal comes along and who knows. Josh Hamilton should not be considered, too much negative baggage.
N8
October 10th, 2012
11:56 am
Sure, Mac is is “the best hitting catcher the past 6 years”. I get it. But if you go back 6 years, Justin Morneau is one of the better hitters too. Actually won and MVP. Nate McLouth was one of the better leadoff guys in baseball the 3 years before being traded to Atlanta. Troy Glaus was an incredible hitter if you go back 6 years before he signed with the Braves (I could go on, but i won’t).
But professional sports is a “what have you done for me lately” arena (especially for the fans)….. and even more so in what is going to be a contract year for Mac.
Here are Mac’s “rankings” in all of baseball the past two seasons in all of the major categories:
2011:
OPS: 11th
HR: 3rd
RBI: 7th
OBP: 19th
BA: 23rd
H: 8th
2012:
OPS: 44th
HR: 9th
RBI: 11th
OBP: 47th
BA: 51st
H: 12th
So….. sorry my friend. The past TWO years…. Mac hasn’t been anything close to the best hitting catcher. In fact, when playing time is considered, I’m not sure he’s the best hitting catcher on his team. Especially against LH pitching.
I get he’s not healthy. But if we’re being fair and there is a chance that he’s not going to be healthy, why is it foolish to judge what he’s done when not healthy?
If Mac’s shoulder gets solved and he’s reasonably healthy (for a catcher), YES. He’s an asset to this team (any team) and will rank in the upper level of hitting catchers in all of baseball. ZERO argument from me on that angle. Dude knows how to hit.
But if he’s not healthy? Complete waste of 12-13 million dollars that could be spent elsewhere on a player that will play in 155+ games. Because even if 100 percent healthy, Mac still sits for 25-30 games.
I don’t think it’s hating on Mac. I don’t think it’s being crude. I think it’s stepping back and analyzing howa team with a 90 million dollar budget should spend it’s money the most wisely.
If Mac isn’t healthy, Wren is just giving that money away if that option is picked up.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
11:57 am
Murph – that was my point. no one applauded all the moves A’s made before they actually succeeded this year, surprising pretty much everyone in baseball. great story, great job by FO and still no one will be shocked if they do not return to playoffs next 5 years.
only so much moneyball can do for you if you have so much less money compared to competition…
guess, enjoy while one can..
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
11:59 am
DAP-
Agreed….
I for one have never been a big fan of platoons, but I can say a few positives for them is that everyone stays fresh, everyone stays ready, and you can be certain your bench is more than likely stronger if you have guys that can play every few days
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
12:01 pm
DOB, not everyone in the mainstream media are lazy and come up with this simple narratives to try to explain complex realities, probably not even most. It’s just that some of the loudest voices are the ones who are this way and they set the tone and create the narratives, like the LeBron didn’t want it bad enough narrative or the A-Rod isn’t clutch narrative.
I think most of the people who run things, the people who make lots of money evaluating and valuating players, would agree with “me and my minions” on this.
Kind of like the whole AL MVP debate. I heard Buster Olney on ESPN say that the suits in baseball say the MVP is Trout. The guys in uniform say it’s Cabrera. Well, the guys in uniform get paid to perform. The guys in suits get paid to evaluate, valuate players because they are the ones who have to determine players’ worth. It’s not that the guys in uniform or the guys in the media are not smart. It’s just that they don’t know the ins and outs of valuating and evaluating players like the guys in front offices. They don’t have that same type of experience and education to the same degree as someone who has been valuating and evaluating players for years, if not decades.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:01 pm
Who is replacing Brian McCann at Catcher for 2013? David Ross??? Please.
If the MRI doesn’t show a gremlin chewing on Mac’s labrum, you pick up the option because you have financial flexibility in 2013 and you play him at Catcher because there isn’t anyone better for 120+ games. If he has a lousy season, guess what, he’s gone and we have another hole to fill for 2014.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:01 pm
I realized that when grabbing those rankings, I had included ALL catchers, so some numbers were skewed due to very small sample sizes. So I did it again while using 300 AB as the minimum qualifications. Here are those adjusted rankings with a minimum of 300 AB for all MLB catchers in 2011 and 2012:
2011:
OPS: 6th
HR: 3rd
RBI: 7th
OBP: 10th
BA: 12th
H: 8th
2012:
OPS: 21st
HR: 9th
RBI: 11th
OBP: 19th
BA: 20th
H: 12th
Still not pretty. And certainly not rankings that would qualify him as the best hitting cather in baseball anymore. He might have the god-given talent and no how to be that hitter. But his body has not allowed him to be that guy. Gotta call a spade a spade. In his current health (which now goes back over two full seasons)…. Mac is NOT the best hitting catcher in baseball anymore.
Simple as that.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:03 pm
N8-
So what are you saying here….
Do you resign Rossy and give him the starting job and try to find a backup somewhere or what?
You cant speed along Bethancourt when he’s clearly not ready, especially post injury.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
12:04 pm
I would be totally blown away if Mac’s option is not picked up. We have no other real alternatives in house. Now future contracts will be determined by his health, conditioning and performance in 2013.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:06 pm
DS1-
Thats what I am thinking
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:08 pm
I also think future could be predicated upon what happens w/ Bethancourt’s development in 2013 just as it was when Mac was an up and comer….
One thing I would like to see is to get another catching prospect that is close to compete with CB….maybe someone more offensive oriented.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:08 pm
If Mac’s option is not picked up, we have a hole at C, LF, CF and SP(imo), and now around 32-35 million to fill all of that. Might seem like a lot, but it isn’t. And Russell Martin and Mike Napoli are the only catchers available via free agency and you’d have to ink them to long term deals. Not seeing it.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
12:10 pm
ColoradoBravesFan: Well said at 12:24. By any measure, Uggla didn’t have a good season. But I don’t understand why some folks get hung up on Prado not hitting home runs like a LF/3B or Uggla not having the OPS or (at least in past 2 years) batting average of a second baseman. Folks, if it helps for some reason, just pretend their positions are swapped. Because it matters not one iota whether you’re getting Prado’s production at 2B or LF or Uggla’s production at 2B or LF, as long as both are in the lineup you’re getting that production. The defensive position does not have any bearing when making out the batting order.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
12:11 pm
Sorry, it’s time to utter the “S” word.
Heck, some of the Washington Nationals’ players are saying it, with very little prompting.
“If we had ‘Stras, we’d be up 2-0,” one player told me Tuesday.
http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/washington-nationals-missing-stephen-strasburg-presence-in-the-postseason-100912
ncgary
October 10th, 2012
12:12 pm
no love for the braves prospects here
http://b.bm324.com/public/?q=ulink&fn=Link&ssid=10573&id=3vzhlo5va41rbe01m29qo28ugk9bt&id2=hid81zozfir2hpr3di9l3zy9fpy8i&subscriber_id=atkfyvptrxxzcbhojqntevrnshzybgn&delivery_id=bbpqursserlesxmpyoaeucbttxvxbok&tid=3.KU0.B1JxZw.CxXY.OjCd..Z17k.b..l.Apr8.a.UHXTSQ.UHXTSQ.-7Yv4g
DAP
October 10th, 2012
12:12 pm
N8 So….. sorry my friend. The past TWO years…. Mac hasn’t been anything close to the best hitting catcher.
yes he has been. basically, he has had one season(2012) where he wasnt close to being the best. in 2011 he still was, despite his dropoff. take the two years combined, and he’s still up there.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:13 pm
Uggla hit .252/.365/.453 over his last 49 games, 189 PA’s.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:13 pm
So Efrim, let me get this right…. Wren is “capable” with our trade chips of “fixing” LF, CF and 3B (one of which will be filled by Prado)….. but apparently there is a rule somewhere that he’s not allowed to go get a catcher that comes much cheaper than 12 million dollars to be the starter (and keep Ross as the backup – nowhere did I mention Ross taking Mac’s place)?
I’m not advocating dumping Mac and starting Ross. I’m saying if Wren could find an adequate hitting catcher (not a black hole) who can play good defense for a reasonable salary, THEN spend that 12 million bucks (in addition to the other dollars coming off book for Chipper, Bourn, Jurrjens, Lowe)…. he just might be able to not only afford Bourn, but also a VERY good LF/3B (wherever Prado ends up).
Our problem the past two years is less about who has been at the other positions, and more about the below “what we expect” production from Mac and Uggla.
if those two guys do what Wren is giving them all that money to do? Matt Diaz is probably enough in LF. But since our #4 and #5 hitters have basically bombed out the past couple of years, it puts more focus on the other guys.
Why not sign or trade for other guys instead of counting on a banged up catcher approaching 30 years old to carry the offense?
Mac on a loaded lineup like the Yankees or Angels is an asset (along with being able to play DH). Mac on a team with a 90 million dollar budget and being expected to be a middle of the order hitter?
not such an asset anymore.
That’s all i’m saying. If this was the 90’s and Ted was signing the checks? Lock him up, bat him 7th or 8th and play ball.
Wren can’t afford the mistake or the chance that he’s not healthy again without a backup plan.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
12:14 pm
Well, the 2014 catching market isn’t great… so, if Mac struggles next year, do you still re-sign him and hope he does decently? He may still be better than whoever else is out there (maybe he takes a paycut, 8-9mil)
Or, what if he does really well. Then he’s easily the best catcher on the market, and may just test FA.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
12:15 pm
I think people underrate how Uggla’s solid OBP helped keep him average-to-slightly-above as a secondbaseman. He’s not the player he was, because of his lack of power, but his OBP kept him from being a well-below-average secondbaseman in 2012. In some ways his season was slightly underrated because it was disappointing.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:16 pm
DOB-
Yup…thats exactly what I do…plus, this isn’t 1985….not all SS hit like utter crap and all 2b are supposed to be punch and judy hitters and all LF hit 25 HR…..
That said, what do you feel the Braves need to do to make their lineup more potent?
It seems to me (and many around here) that the Braves really need a RH bat who hammers LHP to sandwich in the cleanup slot between JHey and Freddie….not sure who that would be though….
And then maybe a Victorino to place either at 2 or 6 in the order….
Frankly, if we got a masher for LF and Shane for CF, I’d be perfectly fine seeing if Simmons could handle the leadoff spot and bat our Catcher 8th (Ross, McCann, or otherwise)
I really like this lineup personally:
Simmons
Victorino
JHey
Freeman
Prado
Uggla
Not to get ahead of ourselves….
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:16 pm
DOB, I’ve always looked at it that way (swapping the positions). I think the thing that kills us is Uggla’s contract (more length – but certainly dollar amount) and if that anchor of a contract will hinder other moves moving forward.
Other than that, like Mac…. Uggla is still in the upper half of hitting 2B. But then there is that whole defense thing too.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
12:16 pm
DOB, not everyone in the mainstream media are lazy and come up with this simple narratives to try to explain complex realities, probably not even most. — Shaun
Just like not everyone, who works at a stats-centric blog, probably not even most, is a nerd working in a basement without any grasp of the human element of sports or the mental side of baseball, which is usually the most important factor in separating very good players from great players.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
12:17 pm
Mac was hitting .300 in 2011 before the oblique injury…
DAP
October 10th, 2012
12:17 pm
p-town I for one have never been a big fan of platoons, but I can say a few positives for them is that everyone stays fresh, everyone stays ready, and you can be certain your bench is more than likely stronger if you have guys that can play every few days
reasons i have always really liked platoons. not to mention, its fairly easy to find players who can do very well vs. oppo handed pitchers. those guys are everywhere.
Fly On The Wall
October 10th, 2012
12:18 pm
I read into the interview …Mac, Uggs and Big Red are still here next year. I hope that they are if they can produce….but Hanson…I sure hope I don’t have to endure another game if he doesn’t change his delivery…i.e….free pass to 2nd and 3rd evey rtime he walks someone. I don’t think he can.
It’s just plain cruel and unusal punishment.I hope I’m wrong, but I see Beachy replacing Hanson after the break.
Lemke's Knuckler
October 10th, 2012
12:19 pm
CB…”One thing I would like to see is to get another catching prospect that is close to compete with CB….maybe someone more offensive oriented.”
Could care less about getting offense from the catcher’s position. The Braves have been spoiled the last 7 years getting what they have from McCann, but having him has always meant the Braves skimped on the offensive production elsewhere, which has largely been left field over that time. If Bethancourt is as good as advertised defensively, I’ll take it.
Klaus
October 10th, 2012
12:20 pm
Great interview DOB. Sadly the Braves lack the money and are risk averse when it comes to make a really big trade or FA move.
I guess you see issue one to understand issue two.
Losing Beachy really hurt but the offense was never firing on all cylinders and really hasn’t for more than stretches the past few years. Under pressure the typical Braves offense folds.
Bottom line – the only reason the Braves even made it to the wild card was the unpredictable pitching of Medlen and Chipper finding another gear offensively versus the expected slow down.
Chipper is gone and Medlen may or may not repeat in 2013.
To me Wren needs to be very aggressive.
Trade Uggla (no matter what move this winter)
Trade an arm package to TX for Elvis. Then trade one of Elvis or Simmons to AZ for Justin Upton (for LF)
Sign BJ Upton (for CF)
Mover Prado to 2B or 3B (the latter means Juan at 3B which I know is riskly)
Sign Peavy or Greinke (latter financially impossible given other needs) to be the new Ace
Decline Hudon’s option but offer him 5mm for one year
Consider trading Mac this winter for a kings ransom in picks to an AL team (in that pile there should be a slugging 3B prospect who is close)
Trade Hanson in one of the deals above.
Peavy or Greinke as ace…
But likely…
Beachy
Medlen
Hudson
Minor
Malholm
Delgado
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:20 pm
Wren can’t afford the mistake or the chance that he’s not healthy again without a backup plan.
And he has three days until after the World Series to make the decision, which absolutely factors into their plans. You had better have a really, really good replacement for McCann in 2013 and beyond if you aren’t picking up that option. I don’t think he’s going to have a .700 season even if he opts for shoulder surgery. You’re cutting ties completely with McCann based on the injury plagued year and you’re also now having to trade assets or use money to fill that position, which could of been used to strengthen CF and LF or even a SP.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:22 pm
P-Town, no. Not what I’m saying at all.
i’m saying Wren should at least explore what can be had out there either via trade or free agency finding a less expensive catcher that plays good defense that can bat 8th (with Ross being the backup), and spending the money spent on Mac elsewhere.
A.J. Pierzynski for example is a free agent and made 8 million dollars COMBINED the past 2 years. He’s more healthy even at age 35 than Mac and his numbers offensively were better, and he’s better defensively.
If Wren could sign him to say a two year deal even if it totals 15 million dollars, until Bethancourt is ready, that would give him another 5 million to spend on the other postitions. Might be enough to resign Bourn AND get a stellar LF/3B either via trade or free agency.
I’m not saying that IS the way to go. I’m saying it MIGHT be an angle to look at.
A team with a budget needs to be creative. Just automatically picking up Mac’s option and assuming he’ll be the old Mac could be dangerous to Wren with the restraints financially on this team.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
12:22 pm
Mac was hitting .300 in 2011 before the oblique injury… — TheOnlyBravesFan
It’s crazy how many people have just ignored or forgotten that.
Before the oblique injury, McCann hit .306 with 18 homers, 55 RBIs, a .375 OBP and .514 slugging in 91 games. An .889 OPS through 91 games in ‘11.
Then he hit .180 with a .638 OPS in his last 37 games in ‘11 after rushing back too soon from that injury.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
12:23 pm
…the human element of sports or the mental side of baseball, which is usually the most important factor in separating very good players from great players.
Yes, the players are humans so obviously the “human element of sports” is all that separates very good and great players. But I think it’s much more complex than just “the mental side.” There are all sorts of reasons someone like Chipper Jones is better than someone like Aramis Ramirez. It’s much more complex than just Chipper is better from the “mental side” of things. If you just think it’s that simple, you are in a way diminishing Chipper or any great player’s overall talent and work ethic.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:23 pm
N8-
Point is, everyone knows that NEITHER of those guys should be cleanup hitters….
In fact, Mac’s best numbers were as a 6 hitter and even Wren said Uggla was brought in as more of a 5/6 than a 4….
So they know where they need to go for a fix….but the question is, if you’re not asking Rossy to step in as a starter, then where do you go for this offense?
For me, like I posted, I think if we can find a RHH LF to bat cleanup and mash against LHP to slide between Jason and Freddie and then find a quality player like a Victorino to handle the other opening slot, then you could conceivably bat the Catcher 8th and not have to worry as much about his O as his D and game calling abilities…
That would point more towards the Laird’s, Barajas’, Martin’s, and Torrealba’s of the world rather than say a Napoli or A.J. Pierzynski….who BTW is available and haven’t heard his name once
O.M.G.
October 10th, 2012
12:24 pm
DOB, give Shaun a break, he played high school ball you know. PLEASE! Can you ban someone for just being stupid?
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:25 pm
“That would point more towards the Laird’s, Barajas’, Martin’s, and Torrealba’s of the world rather than say a Napoli or A.J. Pierzynski….who BTW is available and haven’t heard his name once”
I’ve mentioned AJ’s name 2 or 3 times in the past few days. Including about 5 minutes ago. LOL.
Dadgum....
October 10th, 2012
12:26 pm
The only way Hanson pitches for Atlanta is if Maholm isn’t here. Medlen, Hudson, Minor, Maholm, Delgado or Teheran. Please show me how or where Hanson fits. Beachy gets back later. Even as insurance I wouldn’t keep Hanson. Certainly he will be a throw in on some trade. I hope.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
12:26 pm
hamilton quitting tobacco in-season – reason for Rangers’ collapse -
http://espn.go.com/blog/dallas/texas-rangers/post/_/id/4893050/nolan-ryan-josh-hamilton-didnt-quit
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:27 pm
A team with a budget needs to be creative. Just automatically picking up Mac’s option and assuming he’ll be the old Mac could be dangerous to Wren with the restraints financially on this team.
They’ll have those meetings in October and they have 3 days after the World Series to pick up the option. This isn’t something they will get to do much exploring on beyond that date.
Murph
October 10th, 2012
12:27 pm
NASA or some intelligence organization might be better suited for a man of your intellect.
Apollo 13 could have been averted had Shaun’s OMP (On Moon Probability) statistics been taken into account before launch. Measles? Pshaw.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
12:28 pm
You folks are just not getting it!! Don’t you realize that Mac is in decline. Ranters don’t want to hear about splits (pre and post injury numbers). They just wanna make blanket statements that Mac is in a major decline.
Can we move on to the next subject please?
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:31 pm
I haven’t forgot about it DOB. But I’m now also taking into consideration the shoulder injury. And as you likely have gathered, goin all the way back to the Javy Lopez years, I’ve never been a big fan of having a catcher as a middle of the order anchor in the linuep. Too much wear and tear on that position to count on them down the stretch.
It’s nothing personal with Mac. I actually really like and root for the guy. I was VERY proud of his reaction when Ross hit the HR. You can tell they are buddies and he was rooting for him, rather than pouting he wasn’t in the game. Seems like a great guy. And like I said. With an unlimited budget and him being a fan favorite? You ABSOLUTELY lock him up and bat him 8th if you need to.
This team can’t afford to have a 12 million dollar catcher be unhealthy or batting 8th.
I guess if Wren can find above average replacements in CF/3B/LF and sign Mac while staying under the 90 million range. Then why not gamble?
But I’m hoping for somebody better than Angel Pagan in CF next year or Denard Span.
Hoping Wren makes a trade for a REAL impact middle of the order hitter. Even if it means trading one of Delgado or Teheran and taking on some salary.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
12:32 pm
Tony DeMarco the MLM (mainstream media lazy) -
Nick Swisher’s run of post-season failure with runners in scoring position makes him as vulnerable as A-Rod
http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/49353463/ns/sports-baseball/
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
12:32 pm
O.M.G., I’m sure everyone else on here throwing out their views played in the majors and eventually became GM’s of major league teams.
Forgive me for bringing a different perspective and for actually trying to back up the things I say with some evidence and reason, rather than ignoring a set of evidence simply because it can be construed as “sabermetric” or whatever. Sabermetric or anything that can even be construed as sabermetric to the slightest degree is pure evil and should be ignored, regardless of whether it makes sense or it withstands plenty of scrutiny or whether we would agree with it if it wasn’t so “sabermetric.” All that doesn’t matter. Sabermetric equals evil and the fact that we don’t like anything sabermetric is good enough, making sense and withstanding scrutiny be damned!
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:32 pm
N8-
I agree….the budged constraints make them have to be real creative when they look at everything and if it comes down to a few mil between keeping McCann and getting another difference maker and skimping at the Catcher position, I’d be real curious on which way they’d go, especially with it being very possible that Mac will only be w/ the team for 1 more year anyways….
Don’t get me wrong, I LOVE Brian McCann the guy, BUT as many have put it, it doesn’t make much sense for a team w/ tight financial strings to commit long term to that position and one in which the guy will be rolling over 30 pretty shortly.
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
12:32 pm
Trade Uggla (no matter what move this winter)
Trade an arm package to TX for Elvis. Then trade one of Elvis or Simmons to AZ for Justin Upton (for LF) — Klaus
Seriously?
Oh, and Peavy as ace, huh? A guy who’s started more than 18 games once in the past four seasons? A guy who in the past five seasons hasn’t won more than 11 games or had a plus-.500 record with double-digit wins? He’s your ace over Medlen or Hudson, huh? Or over Beachy when Beachy returns?
OK, Klaus.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:33 pm
Efrim. I guess i should elaborate. I get that the option has to be picked up soon.
But if Mac is deemed healthy, Wren could still likely trade him if he wanted to and still go with the theory of spending the money elsewhere.
Similar to Maholm. Clearly the option will be picked up. Whether Wren keeps him or not is yet to be seen.
cricket
October 10th, 2012
12:34 pm
ok, since we r going crazy – trade uggla for ARod
David O'Brien
October 10th, 2012
12:34 pm
But if Mac is deemed healthy, Wren could still likely trade him if he wanted to and still go with the theory of spending the money elsewhere. — N8
Earth to Nate. You don’t pick up the option of a player who’s spent his entire career with the Braves, a six-time All-Star who’s done as much as he has for the organization, and then trade him. You do NOT do that.
Fly On The Wall
October 10th, 2012
12:35 pm
“That’s different. I think with J.J. will have a determination this winter as to what happens with him. But Tommy won 13 games and pitched very well early in the season. At the end of the season his outings got a little shortened. If we can help him from a stamina standpoint, getting stronger, I think that would help correct a lot of that.”
Just saying it sounds like they plan to give Hanson another try.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:36 pm
So….
Why exactly would we trade for Elvis Andrus and then trade him or Simmons for Justin Upton…..
Sorry DOB but I couldn’t even get past that one to get to the Peavy part
Lemke's Knuckler
October 10th, 2012
12:36 pm
My thoughts about the offseason…
1. Pick up Hudson and McCann options.
2. Sign Prado to 4 or 5 year deal.
3. Trade Hanson now while he still has some value. Bench pieces would be fine by me.
4. Let Bourn walk. If I were Wren, I’d target Ellsbury for a trade this offseason. Plenty of rumors this year about the Red Sox trying to unload Ellsbury. I pick him for a big comeback year.
5. Get a look at Evan Gattis in spring training for a little right-handed pop in left field.
6. I’d like to trade Uggla, but it ain’t happening. Just wanted to throw that out there.
I really like Gattis and I hope he stays healthy and continues to hit. I’m hoping he’s the long-term solution to what Uggla was supposed to be. I have a bad feeling Uggla won’t finish out his contract here in Atlanta and the Braves will end up handicapped just like they were with DLowe.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
12:37 pm
N8
We have Mac. We are unique in that situation. Do we toss him out just because he might break down in the second half? Spending the 12 million on the hopes that he will be healthy in 2013 after rest/surgery is a good gamble when you have potentially one of the best hitting catchers in the game.
When a team is in this situation, you just deal with the variables (how to structure the lineup so as not to have too much of a disruption when he rests). You don’t complain about them. “Darn, Mac sure makes it difficult for us to figure out what to do when he sits. Let’s not pick up his option!”
O.M.G.
October 10th, 2012
12:38 pm
Shaun, it’s not the data you use, it is the way you present it.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:39 pm
“Earth to Nate. You don’t pick up the option of a player who’s spent his entire career with the Braves, a six-time All-Star who’s done as much as he has for the organization, and then trade him. You do NOT do that.”
That’s never been done before? I don’t remember the details all that much of whether it was an extention already in place. But the Braves traded David Justice who had been with the team for 7 years. Two weeks after JS told him he wasn’t going to be traded.
I guess i’m under the impression that “team option” means they own the rights to do whatever they want to do. And if they deem it to improve their team to pick up that option and then later in the spring or winter choose to trade him? Why can’t they do that? So really it’s a player option then, not a team option, huh?
Klaus
October 10th, 2012
12:39 pm
Six man rotation above is bc Beachy wont be back until July. So they will try Delgado or Julio T again at 5 depending on which one doesn’t get traded.
Greinke and Peavy are stretches for a variety a reasons.
Lemke's Knuckler
October 10th, 2012
12:40 pm
Fly On The Wall…”Just saying it sounds like they plan to give Hanson another try.”
Wren’s not going to say anything other than that. He’s a trade chip and Wren would stomp any negotiating power he might have by saying he wasn’t in the team plans for next season.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:41 pm
Keep thinking that way Wayne. I hope i don’t see you griping next trade deadline when we need another bat and Mac’s injured then. Because picking up that option if he’s not going to be healthy is a potentional season breaker if things go sour and Wren can’t add salary if need be.
That’s all i’m saying.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
12:41 pm
N8
Way too much fantasy baseball mentality there, my friend! (trading Mac after signing him)
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:42 pm
Here’s a quote from Justice after that trade:
‘I love the Braves, so when [Braves president] John Schuerholz looked me in my face and told me ‘I’d bet my house and my family that you won’t be traded’ that’s good enough confidence for me coming from a General Manager, and then out of nowhere, one week later I’m gone.”
“
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
12:42 pm
If a player as good as McCann and as young as McCann struggles, it’s usually always because of injury. If the injury gets fixed and heals, there’s no reason to expect he won’t come back. Maybe he’s not going to be as good as he once was. But even if he takes a step back or two, he’s still going to provide plenty of offense at catcher, which is enormously valuable.
If McCann inexplicably had a poor season, I could understand the calls for him to go. But we know he was injured. We know he’s talented. We know he’s not that old, even for a baseball player. I’m not sure what folks are missing here.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:43 pm
N8, they aren’t trading the guy. There is more of a chance that they will just not pick up the option than to pick it up and trade him, man. They will talk about all of their options ar org. meetings in October and figure out the path to go before the options decision on all of the players who have it. My best guess is they pick up all of the options for McCann, Hudson and Maholm. Maybe Maholm is traded, but I don’t see this happening.
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:43 pm
LK-
I don’t mind any of the options you mentioned….Ellsbury would be an interesting case, but I have a hard time believing they unload him now w/ Crawford traded, Ross possibly gone, and not knowing what they’ll get out of their other options….
I still think they need to fill LF w/ someone who can be placed between JHey and Freddie tho….
P-Town Brave ©
October 10th, 2012
12:44 pm
N8-
The Braves traded Justice because it was either him or Maddux and they had to keep Greg….
It doesn’t exactly fit the same way money wise that it did back then….and I just can’t ever see them doing that to Brian.
TennesseePaul
October 10th, 2012
12:45 pm
I’m saying if Wren could find an adequate hitting catcher (not a black hole) who can play good defense for a reasonable salary, THEN spend that 12 million bucks (in addition to the other dollars coming off book for Chipper, Bourn, Jurrjens, Lowe)…. he just might be able to not only afford Bourn
OK, right here I’ll state I’m against this move. Anything that makes it even more possible for the Braves to spend the money on Bourn at his FA rate is a bad idea.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:45 pm
That’s all i’m saying.
That shoulder would have to be near career threatening for the Braves to not pick that option up and play him at catcher, N8.
Shaun
October 10th, 2012
12:46 pm
N8, the problem is the Braves aren’t likely to get full value for McCann. They’d be selling low. They’ll get more by keeping him than they would by trading him.
I’m all for trading anyone if it makes the Braves better, either next year or in the long run. But it’s unlikely a McCann trade would do this. At best the Braves probably would not come out any better or worse.
Murph
October 10th, 2012
12:47 pm
I’m not sure what folks are missing here.
Some diagrams and bar graphs would be nice.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:47 pm
I’m not being an ass DOB, just asking the question.
What is the difference in Wren exercising the team’s right to pick up that option (especially since he has to do it 3 days after the WS) and then choosng, say at the winter meetings to trade Mac…..
…compared to Justice already being under contract, being a “lifelong” Brave who had done A LOT for the Braves turning the franchise around, the GM telling him he wouldn’t be traded…. and then tradig him?
I wanna know your take on that and why it’s different.
Because from my angle, the GM’s job is to make the tough decisions on what makes the team better. Wren has already made two VERY tough decisions with bigger Braves icons than Mac (Glavine and Smoltz), so he’s shown me that he’s willing to do what HE THINKS will improve the team, despite what the public outcry might be.
Like I said, if my tone sounds angry…. it’s not. Just want to know what the difference is between Mac and Justice. Other than who the GM is.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:49 pm
OK, right here I’ll state I’m against this move. Anything that makes it even more possible for the Braves to spend the money on Bourn at his FA rate is a bad idea.
I think I’m fairly okay with anything Frank Wren does this season as long as it doesn’t involve signing Michael Bourn to a long term contract…..
…..and of course, he’s gotta make that qualifying offer.
Tomahawkin (Suffering Fan)
October 10th, 2012
12:50 pm
@P-Town Brave ©
N8-
“The Braves traded Justice because it was either him or Maddux and they had to keep Greg….”
This is pretty much a Moot debate, but they Also had both a Young Andruw Jones and A Young Jermaine Dye coming up…The fact that they got Slop in return from KC for Jermaine Dye still makes me shake my head….
Its really hard to tell what happened back then because there was no mlbnetwork or mlbtraderumors or internet back then, all we had was TBS, (ESPN when it was good) and CNN headline news/sports…Its really hard to explain what happened back then
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:51 pm
“The Braves traded Justice because it was either him or Maddux and they had to keep Greg….”
OK. Fair enough. I remember it that way too.
But what if keeping mac means we “settle” for Josh Willingham in LF next year?
And my point wasn’t financially based in my question to DOB.
He makes it sound like the Braves would NEVER “diss” a player like Mac who has been a lifelong Brave…. when in fact, that’s exactly what they did to Justice (at least in his eyes at the time).
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:52 pm
I’m also against signing Swisher or Upton. I think the price on those two is going to be higher than people think. Much higher than three years, and 30-36 million – which I think is the highest I’d be comfortable going on them.
DS1
October 10th, 2012
12:53 pm
N8
When have you ever heard me griping about not having enough salary to go out and get another player. I am probably one of the few purists on this blog that actually thinks our payroll might be a tad bit too high for our situation (mid market team).
I wouldn’t be surprised if the overall 2013 payroll is a bit less than 2012.
I hate the whole concept of going out and “buying a pennant” that some of the big market teams have employed (and that Boston is trying to get out from under presently).
What if Heyward has more injury issues next year? In the case that he might, maybe we should go out and deal him for prospects and then deal those prospects for guys that we think might be more healthy.
You make a decision when it’s appropriate on whether Mac gets rest or has surgery. You assume that you have an X% chance that he returns healthy and at or close to norms next year. You realize that you have a 100-X% chance that this could become an issue next year.
You don’t deal your 6 time All Star on that 100-X% possibility that things go south.
Murph
October 10th, 2012
12:53 pm
Teheran, Ahmed, and Freeman to KC for Myers and Crow. Sign Pagan. Promote Mejia.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:53 pm
But what if keeping mac means we “settle” for Josh Willingham in LF next year?
We should be so lucky to “settle” for Josh Willingham in LF and Brian McCann at C for 2013. If that’s the way it turns out without having to trade Teheran or Graham, count me in.
N8
October 10th, 2012
12:54 pm
I’m actually also not wanting Bourn back. I was speaking money wise. If Wren WANTS to bring Bourn back (or hell…. go after Hamilton – yeah right)….. neither are really an option if Mac’s contract is on board.
That being said, even i’m not foolish enough to not realize that a healthy Mac is better for this team, than not having mac and re-signing Bourn.
If both guys are healthy and doing what they do? I’d take Mac at 12 million over Bourn at any price (unless he wants to sign a 5 year 5 million dollar deal LOL).
But yeah, I’m actually on board for Victorino over Bourn. Mostly because he’ll come cheaper and likely provide the same production.
Efrim
October 10th, 2012
12:55 pm
Teheran, Ahmed, and Freeman to KC for Myers and Crow. Sign Pagan. Promote Mejia.
That is awful, Murph. All of it except signing Pagan is just pitiful.
Tomahawkin (Suffering Fan)
October 10th, 2012
12:55 pm
3 Days after The Rumble at the Ted and there are armchair GM’s everywhere on hereas if this team lost 85 games…
Can we at least wait til we see how the market shapes up during the offseason before we drum up all the Fantasyland/1-sided trade scenarios…The only time to dream the scenarios are when MLBtraderumors or D.O.B. pops up a hot rumor….
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 10th, 2012
12:55 pm
If that’s the way it turns out without having to trade Teheran or Graham, count me in.
Or Delgado.