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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,117 comments Add your comment
SNEAKY PETE
October 3rd, 2012
2:47 pm
what mildly annoys me is that the most valuable player, the most deserving player will probably not be the MVP because people think “valuable” is a subjective term @Shaun
yes we all know that Shaun’s decision is not subjective, like everybody else’s is :S
usnavyvolfaninva
October 3rd, 2012
2:48 pm
Phil,
really, you have to be so harsh?
Tumbledown
October 3rd, 2012
2:49 pm
Tennessee Paul – It is totally a subject thing. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure
Exactly! One man’s WAR is another man’s peace, or something like that.
Shaun
October 3rd, 2012
2:51 pm
Tumbledown, a minimal degree of subjectivity will go in to determining value. But often times the objective information we have is so overwhelming that which player is most valuable is pretty obvious, like this season in the case of Mike Trout.
It’s a little different in the National League because the objective information that we have doesn’t not make it clear-cut as to which player is most valuable.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
2:52 pm
Ugly K to end Uggla’s regular season, but he did have a good last 30-35 games.
PDOG
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
DS1
FW needs to concern himself with getting an outfielder or two or third baseman, he should be trading pitching to acquire what he needs not trading for more pitching.
usnavyvolfaninva
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
Venters was just pure guesswork on my part.
unbelievable
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
I guess the last spot on the playoff roster belongs to Tommy or Boscan. Id personally rather carry the 3rd catcher to free up Ross or Bmac off the bench. Tommy looks done and I dont see him being an effective reliever during the post season.
DS1
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
War, huh, yeah
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
DAP
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
shaun Okay, so Jeff Francoeur is my new choice for AL MVP. Eric Hinske is my new choice for Braves’ MVP. Hey, it’s subjective.
ok, fine. i really dont care if you want to think that way.
see how easy that is?
people think “valuable” is a subjective term.
it is. thats a cold hard fact.
SNEAKY PETE
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
Do y’all think that Shaun really believes that we all hang on his proclamations and realize our ignorance after reading them?
phil
October 3rd, 2012
2:53 pm
Yes, Navy, I do….
But I don’t plan to keep it up much longer, hopefully.
Tumbledown
October 3rd, 2012
2:54 pm
Shaun – Tumbledown, a minimal degree of subjectivity will go in to determining value.
This seems like a small concession in this discussion. I will not push for more.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
2:54 pm
not trading for more pitching.
We wouldn’t be trading for pitching… Free Agency
veer
October 3rd, 2012
2:55 pm
Do we want Fransisco to hit aganist the Cardinals? Look at his at bats?
Guy has no business being on the bench on Friday
DAP
October 3rd, 2012
2:55 pm
the very debate is proof that value is subjective. to say that it isnt is mind numbingly stupid.
DS1
October 3rd, 2012
2:56 pm
Was kinda hoping Uggla would get his 20th dinger this week……….
SNEAKY PETE
October 3rd, 2012
2:56 pm
what a useless dude. Francisco has power but brings nothing else at all to an at bat
raleighbravefan
October 3rd, 2012
2:58 pm
Shaun @ 2:25 – There goes the arrogant, condescending, know-it-all thing again. YES, his versitility, along with all of the other things I mentioned, make him MY team MVP. And it IS subjective. What is NOT subjective, is that sometimes you can be a jerk.
Brian from SC
October 3rd, 2012
2:59 pm
Washington is 3 innings away from wrapping up that #1 seed.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
2:59 pm
Kevin McAlpin @KevinMcAlpin
Chipper Jones’ final regular season stats: 2,726 hits, 468 home runs, 1,512 BB, 1,623 RBI, 1,619 runs & a .303 avg in 2,499 games. #Braves
and 1409 Ks
jeffrey d
October 3rd, 2012
2:59 pm
Do y’all think that Shaun really believes that we all hang on his proclamations and realize our ignorance after reading them?
I feel like he talks to us like we’re a kid using one of those plastic Fischer Price cars and he pulls up to us as some big shot in a convertable.
DS1
October 3rd, 2012
3:00 pm
So who gets the 9th? Does Kimbrel need an inning? Probably.
jeffrey d
October 3rd, 2012
3:01 pm
Was kinda hoping Uggla would get his 20th dinger this week……….
We can always hope for extras
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:02 pm
Venters looking good. Whole pitching staff with a great outing today.
Shaun
October 3rd, 2012
3:03 pm
It is totally a subject thing. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure
TennesseePaul, okay, so again, why not Jeff Francoeur as AL MVP? If it’s totally subjective, there is no reason he can’t be. One man’s trash is another man’s treasure, after all. It’s my subjective view that Francoeur is the AL MVP. You say he didn’t actually have a good season and is not all that valuable? Well, your trash is my treasure.
DS1
October 3rd, 2012
3:04 pm
Is the A’s and Rangers game going to be on MLB TV?
SNEAKY PETE
October 3rd, 2012
3:04 pm
don’t let him pick you up in that convertible, obsessive true believers are scary
no telling what might happen if a kid disagreed with him in person
DAP
October 3rd, 2012
3:05 pm
shaun why not Jeff Francoeur as AL MVP? If it’s totally subjective, there is no reason he can’t be.
thats correct. just have to get people who vote to see things your way, and frenchy will win MVP.
Tumbledown
October 3rd, 2012
3:06 pm
Ok, I will push for more. it seems to me, Shaun, that you base your determination of value on the presence of so-called “objective information.” Let’s label this objective inofrmation X. You subjectively look at X as determining value or MVP in an objective manner.
Another person may subjectively look at X, and say that some of X applies in the value determination but that we also need to look at Y in determining value. Y may consist of more general factors (eye-ball, ability to motivate others, whatever). You end up with a whole bunch of people using different permeatations of X and Y to determine value. Why do these people not agree just to rely on X (which is what you deem to be the objective information)? People do not agree based on their subjective opinions.
Ok, I have given myself a headache.
SNEAKY PETE
October 3rd, 2012
3:06 pm
how come one half of the year goes so much faster than the other half? Not fair the baseball season goes so quickly.
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:07 pm
And Simmons finishes at .289. What the hell, just a point away for a lot of our guys today….
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:08 pm
It’s my subjective view that Francoeur is the AL MVP. You say he didn’t actually have a good season and is not all that valuable? Well, your trash is my treasure.
It’s nice to see you finally pay some respect to Francoeur after hating on him all those years. If you had a vote, you could cast it for Francoeur, otherwise your opinion shall be noted on this blog. It shall also be noted that others hold different aspects of the game at different levels and thus have come to different conclusions.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:09 pm
What the hell, just a point away for a lot of our guys today….
Ominous.
ncscoots
October 3rd, 2012
3:09 pm
Ok, I have given myself a headache.
A fairly normal reaction to a “discussion” with Shaun. I should know, I’ve been trying to sway him from The Dark Side for years. But I’ve dynamited tree stumps that were easier to reason with.
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:10 pm
thats correct. just have to get people who vote to see things your way, and frenchy will win MVP.
Can I just say that both of these sides of this arguement are ridiculous?
raleighbravefan
October 3rd, 2012
3:12 pm
New rule – All MVP voters must consult with Shaun before casting their non-subjective vote. New requirements for MVP…whatever Shaun says they are, which is obviously non-subjective, because the numbers NEVER lie…and the interpretation of those numbers can NEVER be subjective.
With Shaun, stats aren’t religion, they are a cult.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:12 pm
Can I just say that both of these sides of this arguement are ridiculous?
Subjectively or objectively?
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:13 pm
I really hope we make the NLDS. A rough October of listening to MVP debates and Hanson’s bvalue being that of a non-tender candidate.
Sigh….
ncscoots
October 3rd, 2012
3:13 pm
Can I just say that both of these sides of this arguement are ridiculous?
No.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:14 pm
I love that park. Hell, I had a blast in Pittsburgh. Just a fun, beautiful town. Love the architecture, the bridges, the setting….
Murph
October 3rd, 2012
3:14 pm
PS – Constanza stinks.
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:15 pm
Efrim-
Oh, well, most of us wont have to worry about that brotha….
If we don’t win Friday I won’t be around for one and I’ll probably have to crawl into a hole as to stay away from all the Cards fans around here….
abeeeewright
October 3rd, 2012
3:15 pm
“Most valuable anything means having the most worth. That is not a subjective thing.” – Shaun
Some old sayings …
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Adam Smith’s Invisible Hand somewhat encapsulates that two people who value what the other one has more than what they have will arrange a mutually beneficial trade.
Value is, OF COURSE, both subjective and context specific.
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:15 pm
Simmons finishes at .289/.335/.416 for the year. Simmons hits .750 every year and we have a star for the next six seasons.
MikeInFl
October 3rd, 2012
3:15 pm
a minimal degree of subjectivity will go in to determining value.
Huh? I thought you’ve been arguing that value is and should be determined by statistical analysis. How much is a “minimal” degree? 1 percent? 10 percent? 25? Doesn’t this completely derail your (tedious) argument?
Anyway, I guess if Baseball wanted the award to be subjective, they’d establish a formula and be done with it. Instead, they choose to let human beings – writers – decide based on their own perceptions, inside knowledge of the dynamics of the game, and other evaluations, however inferior their knowledge might be to yours’.
Yes, we run the tremendous risk that a majority of the voters might decide to vote for Jeff Francouer. It seems kinda’ remote to me, and I won’t spend a lot of time worrying about it, but I guess it could happen. Got a feeling the world would keep turning, though.
Tumbledown
October 3rd, 2012
3:16 pm
I just wanted to share my opinion on this MVP debate. Sorry to bother.
David O'Brien
October 3rd, 2012
3:16 pm
Braves notes: Uggla back in lineup; no red jerseys Friday; O’Flaherty finishes strong
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/10/03/uggla-back-in-lineup-no-red-jerseys-friday/
Jimmy
October 3rd, 2012
3:16 pm
They are giving away 45,000 foam tomahawks Friday.
Could be like the good old days.
Or maybe not.
Bat Masterson
October 3rd, 2012
3:16 pm
Have I missed much here, today?
ncscoots
October 3rd, 2012
3:16 pm
I really hope we make the NLDS. A rough October of listening to MVP debates and Hanson’s bvalue being that of a non-tender candidate.
Be careful what you wish for. All a win on Friday assures us is some posts from the usual suspects on how the Braves are doomed against [fill in the blank].
Brian from SC
October 3rd, 2012
3:17 pm
Not even with rounding can Craig get down to an even 1.00 ERA. Needed one more third of an inning. (assuming he is unscathed in this outing)
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:17 pm
Why exactly is Kimbrel in today?
Brian from SC
October 3rd, 2012
3:18 pm
P-Town, to keep him sharp. Don’t want him to be shaking off rust on Friday.
Maybe I spoke too soon on the unscathed thing.
Jimmy
October 3rd, 2012
3:18 pm
DOB – What time is the game on Friday?
Fredo
October 3rd, 2012
3:18 pm
heh Craig is giving these batters yet another reason to fear him
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:20 pm
Jimmy-
45k….
Given attendance numbers wont that be about 7k short?
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:20 pm
Why exactly is Kimbrel in today?
To get some work in. He’d be off for about 6 or so days if not for this appearance.
ncscoots
October 3rd, 2012
3:21 pm
Yes, we run the tremendous risk that a majority of the voters might decide to vote for Jeff Francouer…Got a feeling the world would keep turning, though.
Be worth it just to see Brian Kenney’s head explode, live on MLBN.
I just wanted to share my opinion on this MVP debate. Sorry to bother.
Personally, I thought your post was reasoned and cogent, something seen seldom enough here that yours was refreshing. I wouldn’t call that a “bother”.
Mitchell
October 3rd, 2012
3:21 pm
So we’re making fun of Todd Van Popple for not turning out to be a Hall of Famer?
Gosh, classy move by FoxSportSouth and their announcers.
I suppose he owes the Braves front office a written apology for ever considering him.
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:21 pm
Brian-
Keep him sharp…..he pitched twice over the weekend….with him, I was thinking the only thing an outing today could do is destroy the confidence….
HIGH 5 SPORTS
October 3rd, 2012
3:21 pm
All Braves Fans,please vote for SEQUOYAH VSCREEKVIEW for the HIgh 5 sports game of the week.
http://www.high5sports.com/story/19670393/game-of-the-week-poll-october-5
Jimmy
October 3rd, 2012
3:22 pm
P-Town – Yeah a little short. They said “the first 45,000″ get one.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
Nice season Braves. Thanks!
GO CHIPPER!
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
I really hope we make the NLDS. A rough October of…..Hanson’s value being that of a non-tender candidate.
I apologize Efrim… I’ll try to be more optimistic. I’m fairly confident we’ll make the NLDS. Have no fear.
David O'Brien
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
Kimbrel strikes out Tabata looking to end game, Braves win season finale 4-0 as 8 pitchers combine on 4-hit shutout. Avilan (1-0) gets first win.
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
Mitchell-
You obviously didn’t see the 3 piece sign over the weekend with the “Thank You Todd Van Poppel” on it….
And whats so wrong about it?!
tony austin
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
WTG Braves!
Like I said last night, I didn’t care if the Braves won that game or not, but I really wanted them to win today as not to go into the WC game on a losing streak. This game will hopefully serve as a momentum builder.
SNEAKY PETE
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
Kimbrel ends up with more than 50% of his opponent’s at bats as Ks. amazing
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
W/L record since 2009…
2009: 86-76
2010: 91-71
2011: 89-73
2012: 94-68
360-288 over the last four seasons. An average record of 90-72.
Let’s win that friggin coin flip on Friday!
Brian from SC
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
I don’t see how a meaningless outing against Pittsburgh could affect his confidence at all.
Mitchell
October 3rd, 2012
3:23 pm
“To get some work in. He’d be off for about 6 or so days if not for this appearance.”
What?
He pitched Saturday and Sunday.
Close though.
Chop (to the playoffs)
October 3rd, 2012
3:24 pm
Great season; Chipper great career!! Now, let’s go and kick some Cardinal tail.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
3:24 pm
Good season boys. Now onto the playoffs. I want a parade!
Murph
October 3rd, 2012
3:25 pm
Gameday just stopped updating… figures.
Shaun
October 3rd, 2012
3:25 pm
Tumbledown, but people aren’t saying we should rely on x and y. They are saying we should rely on z instead of x.
People are saying Cabrera is the MVP because of the Triple Crown stats. Others are saying Trout is the MVP because of the metrics that show he’s contributed more to helping and increasing his team’s chances to win.
It’s not an opinion or subjective that certain things actually measure a player’s contributions. I think that’s where the confusion lies. Folks seem to think things like WAR are just an opinion and for some reason actually don’t accurately reflect a player’s value to any degree. But things like WAR are based on loads of historical data and we know based on this scrutiny that WAR, while not perfect, does an outstanding job of measuring a player’s contributions. It’s not some completely subjective thing.
And it’s not just WAR. We can break it down, piece by piece, if you don’t like WAR. We have a pretty good idea of the value of a single, a homerun, a walk, a steal, an out, a caught-stealing, a defensive out, etc. Even if we break it down like that and don’t look at WAR, no matter how you are looking at total contribution, Trout comes out on top.
So basically you have to go against reality to argue against Trout as MVP because all of the information we do have and that we do know is an accurate depiction of player value shows that Trout is MVP.
It has nothing to do with ignoring leadership, motivation, etc. If there were something clear-cut showing that Cabrera’s leadership or ability to motivate made up the difference, folks would gladly argue for Cabrera. Not to mention the fact that there aren’t arguments that Cabrera is the better leader or motivator. The argument is that Cabrera won the Triple Crown and Trout didn’t. But the award is about value, a player’s total contribution to his team, not about the Triple Crown.
M.V.P.Heyward
October 3rd, 2012
3:25 pm
700 runs scored, 600 runs allowed in 2012.
Go! Braves! 12 more wins!
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:25 pm
Atlanta ends with exactly 700 runs scored and 600 runs allowed.
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:25 pm
Alright….
Now that crap show is over, lets move onto the more important things at hand…
Getting a solid roster together for the play-in game and getting some confidence and the right mindset to win it….
Lets Go Braves!
Brian from SC
October 3rd, 2012
3:26 pm
700 runs scored, 600 runs allowed in 2012.
How mathematically beautiful!
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
3:26 pm
Scott Gladin @sgladin
Baseball history for Craig Kimbrel! Struck out over half the batters he faced! Only pitcher IN HISTORY with over 50 IP to do that. #Braves
Paul in Macon @jpmccord
Craig Kimbrel: 62.2 IP, 116 K, 231 BF. First EVER to strike out more than half of the batters he faced. #BlitzCraig #Braves #MLB
ncscoots
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
How mathematically beautiful!
Stratospheric ERAs in the first six weeks, and disappearing BAs in the last six weeks. So, I guess there actually is some symmetry there.
BB
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
DOB, why do my comments say awaiting moderation?
P-Town Brave ©
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Tomorrow is going to seem like the LONGEST day in quite some time….
Get after it in the walk through and hope the fans come out VERY loud and supportive and the Braves give them something to cheer about on the board early…
The 2nd season starts now…..
12 in 12 for 10
Jimmy
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Is it too early to say that Friday is a “Statement Game”?
Looking forward to it.
We win, on to the NLDS (a real series).
We lose, seasons over and blog turns to MVP voting, WAR, trading Uggla and McCann….. and that Zack crap.
TheOnlyBravesFan
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Wonder what the roster will be for Friday… hopefully Fredi G. gives us a few more clues today.
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Atlanta ends with exactly 700 runs scored and 600 runs allowed.
I love clean numbers like that. Makes me more mad that our three 23 year olds finished with a .259, .269, and .289 Batting Averages….
Bat Masterson
October 3rd, 2012
3:28 pm
Hard to believe the regular season is over. Goes fast
Mitchell
October 3rd, 2012
3:30 pm
Well, if the Nationals win tonight the first four losses of the season will have held up.
Stunning outcome there.
Never could have guessed.
DS1
October 3rd, 2012
3:32 pm
Bat
Regular Season??? Heck, LIFE goes by fast!
Brian from SC
October 3rd, 2012
3:32 pm
Prior to this year, the most batters ever faced in a season by a pitcher who struck out more than half of them was 21 (with 13 K) by Francisco Rodriguez in 2002.
Kimbrel faced 231.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:32 pm
Finally, after 162 games, the people who’ve been begging for it all year…. finally they get it: A must win game.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:34 pm
love clean numbers like that. Makes me more mad that our three 23 year olds finished with a .259, .269, and .289 Batting Averages…
HA! Yes. It is a tad annoying. Had we one more 23 year old who finished at .279 it would have been pretty amazing though.
Bat Masterson
October 3rd, 2012
3:34 pm
Yeah it does, Wayne.
700 runs, huh. Not close to the 800 I was looking for.
raleighbravefan
October 3rd, 2012
3:35 pm
Shaun – Sorry…your daily blog limit for repetitive yammering concerning one subject has now been exceeded. Change the subject or move on.
TennesseePaul
October 3rd, 2012
3:36 pm
Prior to this year, the most batters ever faced in a season by a pitcher who struck out more than half of them was 21 (with 13 K) by Francisco Rodriguez in 2002.
Kimbrel faced 231.
Hand that man some rolaids.
ncscoots
October 3rd, 2012
3:36 pm
Finally, after 162 games, the people who’ve been begging for it all year…. finally they get it: A must win game.
Good point, LOL. That will make some of our folks right, half as often as a stopped clock.
Efrim
October 3rd, 2012
3:36 pm
Final slash lines for our 2012 Atlanta Braves regulars:
Michael Bourn – .274/.348/.391/.739
Martin Prado – .301/.359/.438/.796
Jason Heyward – .269/.335/.479/.814
Chipper Jones – .287/.377/.455/.832
Freddie Freeman – .259/.340/.456/.796
Dan Uggla – .220/.348/.384/.732
Brian McCann – .230/.300/.399/.699
Andrelton Simmons – .289/.335/.416/.751
DS1
October 3rd, 2012
3:36 pm
10Paul
You hit the nail on the head, my friend. See you folks on Friday (maybe).
Bo Graves!!
Win One For The Chipper
October 3rd, 2012
3:37 pm
“12 in 12 for 10″
I like that. Good tune up today for the play-in game Friday.
Go Bravos!!!!!!!!!!!