2:00 pm September 25, 2012, by Carroll Rogers
P-Town Brave ©
September 25th, 20124:02 pm
Do we all need to scour our couches for change for Frank again?
Shaun I agree, I think people evaluated Frenchy for what they wanted him to be not what he actually was. I once stated on these blogs prior to him being traded he was destined for a journeyman career as a late inning defensive replacement and was lampooned.
September 25th, 20124:04 pm
Jack, still good for an inning, right, LOL? That’s worth a mil, in today’s market.
September 25th, 20124:06 pm
Right and if not I can hit somebody and start a real donnybrook – ROFLMFAO
September 25th, 20124:07 pm
Murph and P-Town how have you guys been? Yeah I agree it’s going to be St. Louis and frankly I like it that way. I’m not scared of their starting pitching like I would be with L.A. or Milwaukee. I like our chances against them. Especially after they knocked them out last year, it’s the Braves turn this year.
September 25th, 20124:08 pm
14. Paul Maholm, Braves
He’s done his usual solid job, going 3-4 with a 4.09 ERA, and Ben Sheets helped too, with some nice starts after coming back from a year away. Reed Johnson, who was part of the Maholm deal (with cash), is batting a characteristic .291. Though the Braves’ best decision was obviously moving Kris Medlen to the rotation and keeping him there.
Shaun, I have to say that your comments on Francoeur’s evaluations by the casual, low-information fans would have more weight if you had illumined us on his liabilities during his rookie year. I don’t remember anything of the kind, unfortunately.
September 25th, 20124:09 pm
I agree with SPACE MONKEY, and another poster on here. Don’t think I would celebrate anything until I WON the “play-in game” TO SEE WHO THE WILDCARD IS! The way it’s set up now that’s all you’re doing. It’s not officially even the “playoffs” until the wildcard rep is determined. Think about it. It’s just one game, and you have no more than any other team if you lose. It’s, as CJ said, “STUPID” !!!!!!! If I were the manager there would be no celebrating until after that one game is won. The Braves didn’t win the division so what would they be celebrating? (They could have, with another manager)
What up buddy….
I can’t complain….48 hrs from now I will be in Atlanta
And I’m not scared of STL the team persay, but if they beat us, I’d never NEVER hear the end of it from the guys I play ball with…..
I agree…it IS our turn and I really hope the team goes into that game with a “kill em all” attitude
September 25th, 20124:10 pm
Honestly, I’m hoping Hanson is traded quickly after the season has concluded. Not sure I can take the continued bashing of the guy.
September 25th, 20124:11 pm
because it was so obvious from the start that he would have an ERA of .7 as a starter. What were they thinking all that time?
I’m in Houston and would like a copy of next Sunday’s AJC with the Chipper Jones insert. Can anyone help me out?
1 inning worth a mil?
I think you’re selling those types too short….especially if he were left handed….
Hell, if Jason Marquis can get multiple multi year 8 figure contracts than we should all be worth something right?
September 25th, 20124:13 pm
Not sure I can take the continued bashing of the guy.
Just have to ignore it. It’s mostly unreasoned, anyway, so it’s not as if you’d be missing anything.
Just as much as Im not sure I can see any more of his degrading the Braves uniform or getting bashed by opposing hitters….
In fact, thats part of why I am flying into ATL on Thu but have no real interest in getting tix to that game.
September 25th, 20124:14 pm
Efrim, if it wasn’t Hanson it would be somebody. It’s what is done around here.
Heisenberg, I’m not sure Francoeur is a good enough defensive player to be a defensive replacement. I think he’s more a platoon player.
ncscoots, I never liked Francoeur all that much and I’m pretty sure I made it clear on this blog fairly early on. Perhaps there are comments from me still out there in internet land.
September 25th, 20124:16 pm
not sure I can see any more of his degrading the Braves uniform or getting bashed by opposing hitters P-T
yes he is so much worse than dozens of pitchers we have had over the years
A guy w/ a 4.46 ERA, a career high 26 HRA, and 1.5 WHIP that would have about 14 losses right now if not for the run support he gets and terrible peripherals….
Sure….yeah, thats unwarranted alright….
About as unwarranted as fat girls wearing stretch pants and halter tops
September 25th, 20124:18 pm
Or stupid people pretending to having knowledge.
September 25th, 20124:19 pm
yeah totally unwarranted actually. typical overwrought blog hyperbole against a struggling player
September 25th, 20124:20 pm
Any chance you can send the Braves to Winnipeg instead of the Thrashers? By Friday? I would really like to see his last home game…in Winnipeg…
September 25th, 20124:21 pm
I’m pretty sure I made it clear on this blog fairly early on. Perhaps there are comments from me still out there in internet land.
Don’t you think that a comment pointing out that the guy was missing all the essential skills to be a front-line player, while he was hitting .300 with an OPS of .884, would be just a little bit memorable, LOL? After all, that was the ML entry that caused all the poor early evaluations of which you speak.
I’ve always wondered, what do you do with that peg after you have won it, Fols?
September 25th, 20124:24 pm
Would you really want to do that to Chipper and his old body….Im not sure he could handle Canada….
Of course Im sure it would also greatly help Tommy Hanson’s “back” problems
Does anyone know that status of Ben Sheets? Is he going to be able to come back for the playoffs or is he done for the year?
September 25th, 20124:25 pm
Be careful what you wish for!
“About as unwarranted as fat girls wearing stretch pants and halter tops”
I could have a long time without that image in my head. Now I gotta go find the SI page with the body painted models to try to clear it out.
Has Hanson been terrible lately? Sure, but Minor was almost as bad as Hanson has been for a month or so early in the year and to my knowledge he had no injury related issues.
Here we go again – People actually believe that the Braves will trade all the players they no longer view as viable for all the players other teams don’t want to trade.
Happens every year.
I’m in Houston and would like a copy of next Sunday’s AJC with the Chipper Jones insert. Can anyone help me out?
I think you can order directly from the AJC.
September 25th, 20124:27 pm
Pretty sure several folks said of Frenchy, “hey, is this guy ever gonna take a walk or what?” We all knew (didn’t we?) that it couldn’t last. But even the mighty SI was blinded by the light.
September 25th, 20124:29 pm
Hanson’s been bad the last 2 years, and it’s due to injury. That’s quite scary to me. His trends aren’t great, add in the injury risk, that’s a huge red flag to me (and any other GM, I’d think)
Honestly, I’m hoping Hanson is traded quickly after the season has concluded.
That’s something we can agree on. Though I’m not as optimistic on this happening as you are. Wonder if Tampa would take him, Delgado, and Salcedo for Shields… probs not
“hey, is this guy ever gonna take a walk or what?” @Rammer
same thing they will say about Francisco is he starts. He will never even be a Frenchy unless he strictly platoons
September 25th, 20124:30 pm
I first came across this blog in 2006 and Shaun was trashing Francoeur then. Granted, that wasn’t his rookie year, so I don’t know how Shaun responded to him in ‘05.
September 25th, 20124:32 pm
scoots stop thinking that a week’s worth of games has much informative value.
what are you talking about? it has plenty of informative value! it tells you what the lineup has done over their last 9 starts.
shaun We should use stats to help us get a picture of what kind of player a guy is
unless youre wondering what his slash line is over his last 9 starts. in that case, you go ask 10paul.
September 25th, 20124:33 pm
I hope he gets traded too .
Not sure that will happen though with JJ gone and neither of the young pitchers proving all that much yet.
It wouldn’t surprise me to see one of them traded for a bat since they will likely have more trade value than Hanson.
It will be an interesting winter again.
Hanson’s been bad the last 2 years, and it’s due to injury.
Mostly – and poor mechanics. Or likely due to poor mechanics.
September 25th, 20124:35 pm
When Chipper retires I guess David and Carroll will be heart-broken. Obsession is the only word that comes to mind. Animal lovers don’t feel the same love for Chipper as you guys. Please give us a break and tell us about the other players.
SNEAKY PETE, yes Tommy Boy has been terrible lately. Considering he has a few more years experience than Minor, it is reasonable to expect him to have a more consistent performance. Minor is still in the figuring it out stage although he should be graduating from that any day now if he does not already have that diploma. When you look at the trajectory, Hanson is heading down and Minor is trending up. Hopefully we have seen the last of the early 2012 version of Minor.
with that low OBP, you almost have to know that Shaun trashed him from the beginning, its a saberball rule.
September 25th, 20124:37 pm
Wonder if Tampa would take him [Hanson], Delgado, and Salcedo for Shields… probs not
I think Wren will find a taker for Hanson. I’m not sure Shields is gettable, except for a higher price.
September 25th, 20124:39 pm
This will come as a shock to some, but major league coaches are pretty good at figuring out whether a guy should play every day. The fact that Prado plays 3B when Chipper is out is all you need to know about their opinion of Francisco. Power off the bench, occasional start to avoid rust…that’s about it.
What I’d like is some other organization to look at the tape-measure home runs, his age, and think, “you know, if this guy got the chance to play every day, he might be something special.”
We should run to that GM with a deal before he comes to his senses.
Mostly – and poor mechanics. Or likely due to poor mechanics.
True…. it is likely those deplorable mechanics that lead to the injury. Expected him to have arm troubles soon, but not as quickly as he got them. It’s a darn shame.
Here we go, ncscoots. This is the earliest I can find.
May 28th, 2009
N8, the problem with Francoeur started in 2006. Everyone was enthralled with his RBI total and they ignored the ability-driven stats: .260/.293/.449 in 2006. At some point back in 2006 the organization should have realized that Francoeur wasn’t ready to hit major league pitching.
I first came across this blog in 2006 and Shaun was trashing Francoeur then.
Hey, the guy had an OBP under .300 and tried to pull warmup pitches, LOL. You didn’t have to be Branch Rickey (or even Tom Tango) to figure out by then that he might go south.
I wonder, what do you think you gain out of a post like that except disdain, cowdogit?
i was watching the royals game on MLB network, and francouer was up to bat against Justin Verlander. I think it was the royals feed, because right as i was drinking from a bottle of water, the announcer said “Francouer has always been a good hitter. This year he’s known for his defense…” I almost drowned on my mouthful of h2o.
September 25th, 20124:41 pm
I agree with Jim @ 4:02.
If we blow home field then it will be akin to having to get on that plane and go to St. Louis for the tie-breaker last year.
Well, anyway, what it would’ve been like to get on the plane for the tie-breaker had we not got swept by Philly.
Minor is still underrated – expect by Braves’ management.
Minor made adjustments and pitched effectively this season. He doesn’t have much of a track record, granted. We’ll see what Minor does moving forward, but he’s got more upside than Hanson, I believe.
September 25th, 20124:42 pm
I know that nolie never really liked Jeff so I imagine Shaun who is more saber oriented hated him
September 25th, 20124:45 pm
You can’t trade Tehran or Delegado the up side is to good, they need to pitch in the majors next year. If anyone in July had said Minor would turn out this well we would have called in the men with the white coats. The trade that needs to happen is Hanson and Malhom for Cain of KC and a low level prospect. If Bourne resigns then Cain is your left fielder if not he plays center.
So, are the teams that play in the WC game going to put up a WC banner, or just the team’s that win the game?
Should be the latter? (Or, should be neither, but I digress).
i hope the braves don’t put a stupid banner up for getting to play in that dumb ‘play in’ game.
Of course Shaun detested Francoeur from the very beginning – where do you think we all learned that RBI are meaningless?
September 25th, 20124:46 pm
I guess I should explain what I find irksome is this: the implication that some folks, being enamored of RBI and such (thus being ill-informed dinosaur geezers) were simply too stupid to see the sabercentric tell-tales that would have given Francoeur away as a scrub, and that these were seen, in their totality, from the very beginning of the guy’s career by those smart enough to look for them. I find that implication distasteful, certainly disingenuous, and close to a flat damn lie.
Ergo, I am irked.
September 25th, 20124:47 pm
Of course, they don’t want to trade Cain.
Well I would sure hope so….
Minor was a team #1 draft pick and Hanson was drafted out of junior college in what, the 22nd round….
Plus even after his few seasons head start, Hanson has done a whole lot of nothing, sad when you consider his highest win total is this year in unarguably his worst season yet…..
Maybe if he went and played for the Red Sox or Rangers where they score 7 runs a game he wouldnt look so bad….
Of course, could you imagine Tommy Hanson pitching in Arlington Park…..yikes….talk about missiles heading out in Texas…..
September 25th, 20124:48 pm
But – then again – we haven’t offered them all the players the bloggers don’t want anymore. That might well swing the deal.
September 25th, 20124:49 pm
When arent you irked
happen is Hanson and Malhom for Cain of KC and a low level prospect.
why in the world would KC want Malholm?
September 25th, 20124:50 pm
“…if you had illumined us on his liabilities during his rookie year.”
Here we go, ncscoots…
Shaun– May 28th, 2009: N8, the problem with Francoeur started in 2006
Excellent retort.. a post three years after his rookie season.
September 25th, 20124:51 pm
ncscoots, how much earlier do you want? 2006 was his first full season. Also, you are correct. Any one could have seen that Francoeur wasn’t likely to be a good everyday player by 2006. A further indication that some folks evaluated him incorrectly rather than evaluating him too soon.
But in 2005 I remember being concerned that he didn’t walk.
My original point is that often the eagerness to criticize a young player is not about evaluating a player too soon. It’s about not evaluating properly.
Back to Moustakas, some might criticize him because his basic stat line looks no better than Francoeur or Juan Francisco, for example. But once you look at some basic info about how he’s arriving at those numbers, his skill set and his age, it should be apparent that he’s not likely to be a Francoeur or a Francisco.
Shaun, did you seriously just go back to a blog from 3 years ago to find a post, by you, about Frenchy?
I know it’s an internet cliche, but you really should push back from the computer and go outside for a little while. Get some fresh air.
rammerjammer , I seem to recall that when Francisco starts his numbers are rather good compared to pinch hitting or coming in late in games. But they only tend to start him against RH pitching so that suggests to me he is viewed as a platoon player. And from what I have seen of him against LH pitching, I would label him platoon player. Thus I do not see him as the heir to Chipper’s throne.
September 25th, 20124:53 pm
and Hanson was drafted out of junior college in what, the 22nd round…P-T
Hanson was a draft and follow which is nowhere near the same as a #22 pick. Braves used that more than many but it is no longer allowed
correction, 4 years…
September 25th, 20124:54 pm
Ahhh, I don’t even care. I got the irkiness out of my system.
I think Hanson showed promise early on. Unfortunate.
I’ve mentioned this before, but Smoltz says that Hanson needs to work on his mechanics this winter… make some fundamental changes to relieve the stress on his shoulder and elbow.
September 25th, 20124:57 pm
he was supposedly doing that last season.
I doubt he ever gets rid of that hitch though if I recall Ortiz managed it for a few years, but they were not very productive years.
September 25th, 20125:00 pm
What were Hanson’s #’s from his first start through to mid-June of last year? Bet you he probably had an ERA of around 3.00, averaging at or close to 6 IP per start, and a great H/9, K/9.
Clearly, the shoulder injury changed the type of pitcher Hanson is. Before that – had the look of someone with #1 starter potential – present #2, to me at least.
September 25th, 20125:01 pm
Any update on nolie? Second time here, but haven’t had time to read through comments yet.
September 25th, 20125:02 pm
TennesseePaul, sorry I couldn’t find anything from earlier. For what it’s worth, I wasn’t on the Francoeur bandwagon. I was concerned early on.
It has nothing to do with sabercentric or not sabercentric. Francoeur didn’t show anything to indicate he was an outstanding hitter for average, an outstanding hitter for power, had command of the zone and plate discipline to enough of a degree that he was likely to become a good corner-outfielder. And this was apparent pretty early on. That’s all I’m saying. I’m not trying to call people “ignorant geezers” or stupid or anything of that sort. I’m also not trying to avoid offending anyone, though I truly do regret that something like this, simple statements of facts, would offend. I’m simply stating how it is and was.
Off topic, but am I a bad baseball fan for not wanting Miguel Cabrerra to win triple crown?
I see where there is a search this blog function, but how do you go back 3 or more years without going back to that date (if it is still archived) and doing a separate search? I gotta admit it would be kinda cool to put in a name and some text in a search box and find all what someone said about a subject since the beginning of time.
September 25th, 20125:04 pm
in the first half of last season he was 10-4 with a 2.44 ERA.before his arm acted up
September 25th, 20125:05 pm
Sept 28? 1969
September 25th, 20125:07 pm
And he hasn’t been the same since….
So why are all you guys dry humping him when clearly he isn’t the best looking girl at the prom anymore?!
I think a triple crown would be cool, if only for the fact that “experts” have predicted it could not be done again because of blah blah blah yada yada yada.
September 25th, 20125:08 pm
It has nothing to do with sabercentric or not sabercentric. Francoeur didn’t show anything to indicate he was an outstanding hitter for average, an outstanding hitter for power, @Shaun
yeah right. it had everything to do with sabermetrics as opposed to traditional stats dude
.190/.264/.317/.581 was the oppo. stat line against him. Averaging 6IP a start, and had allowed 9 HR over 17 starts.
September 25th, 20125:10 pm
yes the 6 inning limit has always been his bugaboo
Injury’s changed him. He had #1 potential, now it’s to #3 and that’s if his shoulder gets healthy, and likely would require him to change his delivery as well.
September 25th, 20125:12 pm
KC has a good young group of postion players and a good group of young pitching prospects they need a few arms to bridge the gap and Hanson and Malhom would make perfect sense. They have two other good young outfielders who can play center the trade makes perfect sense. If I am the Braves might even take a flyer on Frenchy for one year at 3 mill.
See I am not sure I agree w/ the #1 there….
I at one point saw him as maybe a 2 but he was way too inconsistent (as now proven) and his BB/9 was alarming even in good times….
Like JJ, I always felt like he was outperforming his peripherals and was a couple starts away from falling off a cliff if the opposition made adjustments
September 25th, 20125:18 pm
KC is not going to pay Malholm 6.5 million dollars to be a mid rotation starter
That is not how they operate
September 25th, 20125:19 pm
“Clinch what? A 50-50 chance at the playoffs. We haven’t clinched until we have won the wild card play-in game.”
Wrong. The Wild Card Game is the a play-off game, new this year. Just because it’s new doesn’t mean it does not exist. Otherwise, you could deny playoff status to all except the NL and AL champions since 1969.
SNEAKY PETE, I honestly don’t view everything in baseball through the lens of sabermetrics or anti-sabermetrics, as some folks think I do and as some folks seem to do themselves.
Francoeur is a platoon player, at best. It was apparent pretty early on that he wasn’t likely to be as good as those who anointed him or hyped him thought that he would be. It was just apparent in what he did on the field, things which were measurable.
Perhaps some want to label those measures and that information and the interpretation of that information “sabermetrics.” I’m okay with that. Call it whatever you want. The fact is no matter what you want to label it, the information was there early on to indicate what kind of player Francoeur was and was likely to become.
If that bothers some of you because that information is not what they would call “traditional stats,” so be it. It’s not about sabermetrics versus traditional stats or sabermetrics versus scouting or whatever. It’s not some false dichotomy for me. I just want to get at the truth through some reliable information. If that offends you, sorry. I truly am sorry if it does. But I’m not going to stop getting to the truth or as close to the truth as I possibly can because of some phony war of sabermetrics versus traditional stats or sabermetrics versus scouting or sabermetrics versus anti-sabermetrics or whatever terminology some want to use.
September 25th, 20125:22 pm
Sneaky Pete, KC owner is saying he will pay for pitching this off season. We shall see.
September 25th, 20125:24 pm
Did you ever play ball?
Sneaky Pete, KC owner is saying he will pay for pitching this off season.
I so want to make a sarcastic comment, but I’ll refrain.
Later y’all, take later. We clinch tonight! Meds goes 7 scoreless, Uggla hits a HR, Braves win 6-1.
September 25th, 20125:26 pm
Thing is, Sneaky Pete, for a mid level starter, Maholm isn’t a bad pay….
In fact, he has more quality starts than anyone on the Braves this year….
He usually wont wow anyone with his stat line every time out, but he does give 6-7 IP and usually provides a good line, especially if you’re not asking him to be an ace like they were in PIT
September 25th, 20125:29 pm
September 25th, 20125:30 pm
“Another day off for Bourn, but hey, Mac’s back!” – TOBF
September 25th, 20125:31 pm
hope the Braves learned something when they faced Eovaldi last week … don’t need him shutting down the offence again this go round
very perceptive of you since I don’t remember reading any baseball articles to that affect
he went bad because of injury not because his BB/9 was high, plenty of good pitchers have had the same problem
Mixxo,you probably got that reaction from a few of your “fans”.
September 25th, 20125:32 pm
Shortstop Jack Wilson will retire following a 12-year MLB career, Dejan Kovacevic of the Pittsburgh Tribune-Review reports. Wilson, 34, decided along with his family that the 2012 season would be his final one in the Major Leagues…….Wilson told Kovacevic he’ll be staying in touch with the Braves’ front office.
no he isn’t for us, but I seriously doubt KC would be interested
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