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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
1,958 comments Add your comment
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:23 am
For sure, WAR is an imperfect measure of a player’s performance. So is batting average;HR;RBI; fielding percentage; UZR-150; SBs; etc., etc.
Wow. Buster is certainly fighting the fight for the people of Fangraphs.
TheOnlyBravesFan
September 20th, 2012
9:24 am
Even Mauer? That’d be nice, he could replace Mac if need be. Start with a Hanson+Delgado package.
Though I’m wondering, since their farm is so bad, Hanson doesn’t do them that much good, he’s not a prospect.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
9:25 am
Efrim, I think what he’s pointing out is that there isn’t a perfect measure, of any sort, and both dinosaurs and geeks are wrong to think so.
Ghost of Chipper Jones
September 20th, 2012
9:28 am
Tradin’ time. Got to go.
MEXICAN LEAGUE play is first down south, and kicks off October 11.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
9:29 am
Medlen will probably finish 15-20 innings short of qualifying for ERA titles and stuff.
If he DID qualify, here’s where he would rank in the NL:
ERA – 1st (1.51)
W/L – 1st (.900)
WHIP – 1st (.936)
H/9 – 3rd (6.84)
BB/9 – 2nd (1.584)
K/BB – 2nd (4.91)
HR/9 – 1st (.288)
WAR ALERT!
Seriously, WAR is not a perfect measure, maybe even less so for pitchers, but it says something that despite having only 125 IP, Medlen is 5th in the NL among pitchers in baseball-reference’s WAR.
Kimbrel and Medlen are 1st and 2nd respectively, in the NL in Win Probability Added for pitchers.
Ric Flair to Right
September 20th, 2012
9:36 am
Mike Minor ERA outside of may in 5 months of work? 3.05!!!! real good work
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
9:38 am
For fun…if you combined Brandon Beachy’s season with Medlen’s portion of the season in the rotation, you get Krandon Beachlen.
Krandon Beachlen would be 13-5 in 23 starts with a 1.42 ERA in 151.2 IP.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:38 am
Give ‘em everybody, LOL, except the guys in the low minors and Graham, maybe. Hanson, Delgado, Spruill, a couple from Column B, whatever. Prospect-whip ‘em.
If I were them, I’d honestly trade everyone. It’s a really bad team with holes at 3rd, SS, 2nd and massive issues in the rotation and the bullpen. Not to mention the farm system. Keep Mauer given his contract and home town guy and try to acquire pitching.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:40 am
I think what he’s pointing out is that there isn’t a perfect measure, of any sort, and both dinosaurs and geeks are wrong to think so.
I agree. Seems as if the conversation occurs every single year as we discuss MVP/CY Young ballots.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
9:42 am
Seems as if the conversation occurs every single year as we discuss MVP/CY Young ballots.
I’m as big a Mike Trout fan (non-family division) as there is, but, if Miggy gets the Triple Crown, he’s my MVP. Can’t help it, and the catcalls of “dinosaur” wouldn’t change my mind.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:44 am
Maybe if the Braves take on Jamey Carroll’s contract, we can get Willingham for less than you’d think? 13:$3.75M, 14: $2M club option ($0.25M buyout)
$3.75 million is a lot of scratch for a utility infielder. Plus the 250K buyout and that’s 4M for him in 2013. Yeesh.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
9:45 am
Miguel Cabrera winning the Triple Crown would be a real litmus test for the baseball writers. How old-school are they? If he wins the Triple Crown and Trout still wins the MVP, then the tide has turned.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:46 am
I’m as big a Mike Trout fan (non-family division) as there is, but, if Miggy gets the Triple Crown, he’s my MVP. Can’t help it, and the catcalls of “dinosaur” wouldn’t change my mind.
Yeah, I would still go with Trout. The 50 points of SLG just isn’t enough for me.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:50 am
http://espn.go.com/mlb/team/depth/_/name/min/minnesota-twins
That’s just awful. And I know Span would be in CF, Revere in RF if for health. That’s a really bad baseball team with no pitching in sight. Willingham, Morneau, Carroll, Span, Doumit – I’d trade all of em for pitching and infielders. Keep Mauer and Revere, wait for Hicks, Arcia, Sano, Rosario and hope that the pitching blends in around the same time. Not sure what else they can do. They’ll be picking 1st or 2nd for a few years, so that’ll help.
Murph
September 20th, 2012
9:53 am
Maybe it’s the constant bombardment of politics at this time of the year, but debating anything that involves a vote makes me cringe. Obama, Trout, Romney, Cabrera… I hate Novembers.
Also because Mrs Murph can’t cook, and after 8 years of marriage has yet to successfully pull off a decent Thanksgiving meal. Year 1 she literally boiled the bird. Well, at least the bottom half of it that was in the pan.
I’d like to enjoy the postseason and October, skip November, and go right to the Winter Meetings and the happiness that is the Christmas season.
Bat Masterson
September 20th, 2012
9:53 am
Krandon Beachlen would be 13-5 in 23 starts with a 1.42 ERA in 151.2 IP.
Extend that guy now!
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
9:56 am
I’d definitely try and hold onto Teheran and Graham this offseason. I’d like to hold onto Bethancourt and some of the kids in the low minors(Rookie Leagues). I don’t think Wren will trade Sean Gilmartin either.
Jeff R
September 20th, 2012
9:57 am
Poor Pittsburgh…they are back down to .500, and look like they may have their 20th straight losing season. They are 16-32 since July 28th.
The Pirates need to rally and at least finish at .500.
I’m still impressed with the job Neal Huntington is doing in Pittsburgh. He’s drafted quality prospects (particularly arms), and has the building blocks in place for longer term success.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
9:58 am
Yeah, I would still go with Trout.
Geek.
Trout winning would show that defense has gone from undervalued to overvalued, in my view. That might be a natural swing of the pendulum, I guess.
TheOnlyBravesFan
September 20th, 2012
10:04 am
Yeah, definitely have to hold onto Teheran. His stock isn’t as high as it was before. Delgado and some other pitching prospect are “gone” this offseason due to trades. just hope it isn’t Graham or Gilmartin.
Arkansas Transplant
September 20th, 2012
10:06 am
Bethancourt and Gilmartin would be available if the right trade came along, or at least that’s what I would be willing to do. I’d probably just have a few that would strictly be hands off.. and that probably would be a very short list maybe just Teheran, Graham and Alex Wood.
Arkansas Transplant
September 20th, 2012
10:08 am
Sims probably would also be one too.
Murph
September 20th, 2012
10:08 am
Delgado and some other pitching prospect are “gone” this offseason due to trades
I don’t know that it’s an absolute certainty that Delgado gets dealt. Maybe 50/50. I’d much rather hold on to him than Gilmartin, but I’m also a big time Delgado fan after his work down the stretch last season.
Gotta believe that Graham is now the only pitcher on the “untouchable” list… and that it would take a crazy return to pry Teheran loose, although I think he’ll be a part of a trade this offseason.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:09 am
Sims or Wood can’t be traded until next year, so they are off limits.
Like I said, I think Hanson, Delgado, and Ahmed are prime trade assets this offseason.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:09 am
Trout winning would show that defense has gone from undervalued to overvalued, in my view. That might be a natural swing of the pendulum, I guess.
Why can’t it simply be “properly valued”? It’s not like Trout’s line of 118 / 27 / 77 / 46 / .327 is THAT far off of Cabrera’s 101 / 41 /130 / 4 /.333. If you include just a very, very small bump to Trout for defense, then you could argue he’s been the more valuable player. If you include anything more than a small bump, it’s not even a discussion.
TheOnlyBravesFan
September 20th, 2012
10:11 am
http://blogs.ajc.com/mark-bradley-blog/2012/09/20/fantasy-baseball-could-the-braves-really-catch-the-nats/?
Washington holds a five-game lead over the Braves with 14 to play. (The Braves have 12 games remaining.) That’s still a sizable margin. But it’s not nearly as big as it was a week ago, when the Nationals were 8 1/2 games in front. And if you’re wondering if such a big lead has ever been squandered in so short a time, the answer is yes. The 1964 Phillies, long the gold standard of flops, led by 6 1/2 with 12 to go.
(Oh, and if you’re wondering, “How far ahead of St. Louis were the 2011 Braves with 14 games remaining?”, the answer is 4 1/2 games. We know how that turned out.)
Truth to tell, they already do. The Nationals’ magic number to clinch the division stood at 11 on Sept. 13. A week later, it has only shrunk to nine. If Washington had beaten the Braves even once here over the weekend, we’d have no real reason to get excited. But the Nats didn’t, and we kind of do. We around here know how fast leads can disappear.
Jeff R
September 20th, 2012
10:13 am
Bethancourt and Gilmartin would be available if the right trade came along, or at least that’s what I would be willing to do.
Bethancourt is highly regarded within the Braves’ organization despite a lackluster season (ended by injury). He’s certainly well regarded around the majors. Not sure Wren would part with him, given that McCann may be a short termer.
Gilmartin is getting closer to major league ready. The pitching pipeline is never full enough. Jurrjens’ injuries, Beachy’s elbow, and Hanson’s shoulder indicate that there’s never enough pitching talent available.
phil
September 20th, 2012
10:15 am
Medlen only pitched 8 shutout innings….
Back to the pen with the guy.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:17 am
Sims or Wood can’t be traded until next year, so they are off limits.
Like I said, I think Hanson, Delgado, and Ahmed are prime trade assets this offseason.
Can’t they be traded as a PTBNL, like Drew Pomeranz was last year? Or is that only applicable for in-season trades?
raleighbravefan
September 20th, 2012
10:18 am
I don’t know if Prado could catch or pitch, but I’d bet he would give it his best effort inf asked. He may be our emergency catcher right now, with Diaz out.
Highest priority may be to lock him up, at least 5 years.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:19 am
Why can’t it simply be “properly valued”?
That’s just it, I don’t really know what is “proper value”.
We aren’t at the point with defensive metrics that they should be relied upon with as great a confidence factor as some folks seem to give them. If I can’t use them with confidence, then I’m reluctant to use them at all, in a case such as this. I know that puts me on an island, but that’s where I sit.
Jeff R
September 20th, 2012
10:20 am
I’m high on Ahmed. I think he could be a conversion to second, and I believe he’s ranked higher than LaStella.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:20 am
Can’t they be traded as a PTBNL, like Drew Pomeranz was last year? Or is that only applicable for in-season trades?
Not sure. You could be right, though I thought it was different for offseason trades.
Arkansas Transplant
September 20th, 2012
10:21 am
Can’t they be traded as a PTBNL
I believe so, but I could be mistaken.
raleighbravefan
September 20th, 2012
10:22 am
scoots – Move over, friend. I’m joining you on that island. I see value in a lot of the new metrics, but I haven’t bought into the defensive measures…not at all.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:23 am
Can’t they be traded as a PTBNL, like Drew Pomeranz was last year?
The answer to that is “yes”, with this caveat: there is a time frame in which a PTBNL must be named (can’t wait a year to name the guy, for example), and a date before which recent draftees cannot be traded. So, the trade would have to occur within a window that accomodates both of those time frames. I don’t think an offseason trade would be able to do that.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:24 am
If I can’t use them with confidence, then I’m reluctant to use them at all, in a case such as this.
Yeesh, scoots. I don’t know man. I can’t sit here and watch Cabrera at 3rd base, Trout in CF and both players on the basepaths with their offensive numbers and pick Miggy as the MVP. Just can’t do it.
Just like I don’t think Heyward is just a .270/.340/.490 hitter and that’s all this year. There’s more there. I just know it.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:24 am
That’s just it, I don’t really know what is “proper value”. We aren’t at the point with defensive metrics that they should be relied upon with as great a confidence factor as some folks seem to give them. If I can’t use them with confidence, then I’m reluctant to use them at all, in a case such as this. I know that puts me on an island, but that’s where I sit.
That’s a fair stance. I agree that we are not at a point for which they can be relied upon with great confidence, but I do feel like they are good enough to give you a “ballpark” idea of how a player performs. While there is no way I’d feel comfortable using any defensive stat to “rank” two players who are within a point or two of each other, the gap in defensive stats between Trout and Cabrera is ginormous, and backed up by both scouts as well as my own “eye test”, making more comfortable saying that there is likely a sizable gap in their defensive values. A gap which, in my opinion, is more significant than the gap in their offensive values.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:26 am
And I’m going to be pissed off if J-Hey sits lower than .830 this year or if Freeman sits lower than .800. Not a good finish to two very strong seasons offensively.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:27 am
And now to backtrack on my statement somewhat, I do think that Fangraphs version of WAR is BS. Their position adjustments are arbitrary at best, and I don’t agree with how they are applied.
But that doesn’t mean that we should simply ignore defense because it’s too hard to measure. It just means that judgement must be applied, and everything can’t be boiled down to a single number.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:28 am
I can’t sit here and watch Cabrera at 3rd base, Trout in CF and both players on the basepaths with their offensive numbers and pick Miggy as the MVP
Yet, we both know that SBs are pretty meaningless when it comes to scoring runs, correct? So, we’re left with Trout’s defense to outweigh Cabrera’s superior offense. I’m not even saying that such a thing might not be the case, in actuality; I’m way open to that thought. But I’m still going with Miggy.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
10:30 am
Yet, we both know that SBs are pretty meaningless when it comes to scoring runs, correct?
I don’t know that…do you know that?
Also, baserunning value is much more than stolen bases, just like defense is much more than not committing errors.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:32 am
But that doesn’t mean that we should simply ignore defense because it’s too hard to measure. It just means that judgement must be applied
And on that, we agree. It shouldn’t be ignored, not at all, and I’d like to think that I haven’t fully done so, in this case. I believe I’m valuing it less, in this one single context of MVP, is all.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:32 am
Yet, we both know that SBs are pretty meaningless when it comes to scoring runs, correct?
I’m not counting just SB’s for Trout. I mean, that’s part of it, but that’s not all what baserunning is wrapped up in as I know you know.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:32 am
Yet, we both know that SBs are pretty meaningless when it comes to scoring runs, correct?
I am open to being proven wrong here, but I don’t think this statement is accurate at all. That’s like saying that doubles are pretty meaningless to scoring runs. I think that SB are somewhat meaningless if you are CAUGHT stealing a lot….the general rule of thumb is that you have to have an 80% success rate to have a positive contribution to runs scored. Trout is 46-for-50, so his 92% success rate is well above positive.
TheOnlyBravesFan
September 20th, 2012
10:33 am
Trout is fun to watch yes, but I still have to go with Cabrera for MVP. Especially if he gets the Triple Crown. Cabrera is a better hitter, and that’s lead his team to lots of win. Trout is an inferior (but not bad) hitter. His defense is great, but I have a hard time believing that his defense outweighs Cabrera’s offensive skills.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:34 am
I don’t like that Trout missed the first month of the season. That hurts him a bit, imo.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:35 am
And on that, we agree. It shouldn’t be ignored, not at all, and I’d like to think that I haven’t fully done so, in this case. I believe I’m valuing it less, in this one single context of MVP, is all.
Fair enough. Everyone is not going to agree on everything, and like I said, thought needs to be put into it rather than simply picking a numbers, whether it be RBI or WAR. It certainly sounds like you’ve thought about it plenty, and it’s not exactly like there is a “wrong” choice between the two.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:36 am
I don’t know that…do you know that?
Yes. There is only a microscopic correlation between stolen bases and runs scored.
Beyond the math, consider this. There is only one game scenario in which a stolen base leads to a run that would not have otherwise scored, had the base not been stolen. That is, a single run scores in the inning and that single run would not have scored without the stolen base. In all other scenarios, the run scored by a base-stealer would have scored without the steal.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:38 am
His defense is great, but I have a hard time believing that his defense outweighs Cabrera’s offensive skills.
I don’t think the way to look at it is “his defense outweighs Cabrera’s offensive skills”. I think the question to ask is, “How much better of an offensive player is Cabrera than Trout, and is that a larger value than how much better of a defensive player Trout is than Cabrera”? Considering how close they are offensively (based on the numbers I posted above), and how much ahead Trout is defensively, I am of the opinion that Trout has more overall value than Cabrera.
TennesseePaul
September 20th, 2012
10:39 am
if Miggy gets the Triple Crown, he’s my MVP. Can’t help it, and the catcalls of “dinosaur” wouldn’t change my mind.
Concur.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:39 am
I do think the difference between Trout’s baserunning and Miguel Cabrera’s base…running… should be considered when having this discussion.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:41 am
it’s not exactly like there is a “wrong” choice between the two.
I’d take them both in a pickup game, yes.
And I surely wouldn’t stamp my foot and throw a tantrum if Mike Trout is the MVP. That case can certainly be made.
Venice Jim
September 20th, 2012
10:41 am
Richie Justice at MLB.com:
At the moment, Kris Medlen is baseball’s best pitcher. He’s throwing three pitches for strikes, getting swings and misses on all three pitches, getting outs on all of them. Opposing batters simply have no idea what’s coming.</i.
http://justice4u.mlblogs.com/2012/09/20/inside-kris-medlens-pitching-clinic/
phil
September 20th, 2012
10:42 am
You guys are not on an island….
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
10:42 am
scoots, but there are a lot more situations where Trout, with his ability, would score when getting on base, than Cabrera. Not only can Trout steal a base or two, but if he’s on second, he’s scoring on a hit. If he’s on first, he’s scoring on a double. Not the case many times with Cabrera.
Trout scores 45% of the times he reaches base, not including hitting homers. That’s best in the AL. Miguel Cabrera scores 28% of the time.
RC
September 20th, 2012
10:42 am
There is only one game scenario in which a stolen base leads to a run that would not have otherwise scored, had the base not been stolen. That is, a single run scores in the inning and that single run would not have scored without the stolen base.
Let me preface by saying I know this is kind of obnoxious to point out, but I’m doing it anyway. There are other situations in which the SB leads to multiple runs. If the player steals, then the next batter hits into what WOULD have been an inning ending double play, and then the next batter hits a HR, then every run that scored after the would-be double play wouldn’t have happened without the SB. Yes, it’s an extreme example, but just pointing out there are other situations.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:42 am
Concur.
Boy. Now I know why you guys really don’t want to sign Michael Bourn.
TennesseePaul
September 20th, 2012
10:43 am
I mean, that’s part of it, but that’s not all what baserunning is wrapped up in as I know you know.
oh. oh! I know this… I know this!! It’s about drag bunts. Busting it down the line to beat out grounders. Hustle. Grit. Determination. Right? That’s why we also must include Constanza in this MVP talk.
Venice Jim
September 20th, 2012
10:44 am
I guess McFanning the link isn’t quite as bad as my normal incompetence…
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:45 am
Wow. Can’t believe the year Torii Hunter is having at the plate: .308/.361/.450.
Solid.
Lew
September 20th, 2012
10:47 am
I third that one, dinosaur or no. No one has won the Triple Crown in 45 years – it’s an elite accomplishment whether or not the youngun’s acknowledge the validity or not.
TennesseePaul
September 20th, 2012
10:48 am
Now I know why you guys really don’t want to sign Michael Bourn.
Not for $18M. Line him up for $9M or less, and I’ll be interested. Still think that’s over paying a tad. I just don’t see that guy being worth the money in his post 30 years.
There is this mythical 5-tool player out there who does it all on both sides of the ball and is a brilliant man off the field. He makes the big dollars. he’s the prize and a team hands him that massive check as part of the prize. Everyone sees it. Huge check, all around awesomeness. … Michael Bourn isn’t that player. McCutchen, yes. Trout yes. Even Mauer fit that bill, injuries stink, but he fit that bill. Michael Bourn is not that guy. When he signs his contract, he’ll still be in the 1% club and we can all go downtown and sleep in tents and complain about how his paycheck is our misery, but he isn’t in the 0.00001% club.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
10:50 am
Lew, I think Miguel Cabrera winning the Triple Crown would be an absolutely incredible accomplishment, the likes of which I have never seen. But I still think I would vote for Trout. He’s been that good. I think he’s been a more valuable player than Cabrera.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
10:51 am
but there are a lot more situations where Trout, with his ability, would score when getting on base, than Cabrera.
And that is a valid point. Add some black to the Trout column.
If the player steals, then the next batter hits into what WOULD have been an inning ending double play
Can’t assume the DP, LOL.
There may also be some other tangential scenarios that I haven’t considered, sure. I make an assumption that the percentage of those game scenarios occurring in the total of all scenarios involving a steal is so low as to be negligible. Outliers which, even if included, would not change the overall conclusion. I could be wrong about that, but I don’t think so.
Murph
September 20th, 2012
10:52 am
Give Cabrera the MVP, Trout the ROY, done and done.
Lew
September 20th, 2012
10:53 am
“Trounjt scores 45% of the times he reaches base ……Miguel Cabrera scores 28% of the time.”
And how many RBI do the players hitting behind the two stalwarts have? I guarantee that it isn’t all OBP or base running acoonting for that difference. They have to get driven in by someone. That might just affect the percentages.
phil
September 20th, 2012
10:54 am
Cabrera and Trout can share it…..
A triple crown would be something else, even if it is comprised of meaningless stats like RBI and avg….and heck, who cares about homers either.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
10:57 am
Not for $18M. Line him up for $9M or less, and I’ll be interested.
I think I’d go as hugh as 12 million a year for him. Four years, 48 million. That’s it.
I think he’d be a huge bargain for three years, 27 million.
TennesseePaul
September 20th, 2012
10:57 am
I think Miguel Cabrera winning the Triple Crown would be an absolutely incredible accomplishment, the likes of which I have never seen. But I still think I would vote for Trout
This isn’t going to shape up like Howard vs Utley. If Cabrera wins over Trout, and some one gets in my face about it, I’ll just look at the two season and see two massive seasons, one of them accomplishing a feat untouched in 45 years by a guy in his prime. The other a guy who’s 20 and has plenty of time to win every single MVP for the next 10 years.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
10:57 am
And how many RBI do the players hitting behind the two stalwarts have? I guarantee that it isn’t all OBP or base running acoonting for that difference. They have to get driven in by someone. That might just affect the percentages.
Of course it does. So you have to think about that…no statistic is perfect. For the record, Cabrera hits ahead of Prince Fielder and Delmon Young. Prince Fielder has 100 RBI. Trout hits ahead of Torii Hunter, Albert Pujols, and either Morales or Trumbo. It should be noted that Hunter, hitting 2nd in that lineup, only scores 33% of the time he gets on base.
brian
September 20th, 2012
10:58 am
can’t ignore a triple crown winner but Trout has been by far and away the best complete player in the AL this year
TennesseePaul
September 20th, 2012
11:00 am
I think I’d go as hugh as 12 million a year for him. Four years, 48 million. That’s it.
4 years is a nice length. Longer than that and it gets bad. 4 years and the young ones haven’t even earned their full money. So it is manageable.
I’d certainly offer him a qual. I don’t think he is worth as much as they hype says he is, but I know the hype is there and might as well cash in on it.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
11:00 am
Think about it this way: If MLB gave out MVOP (Most Valuable Offensive Player) and MVDP (figure it out), then Miguel Cabrera would win MVOP in the AL, with Trout finishing second. Trout would win MVDP, and Miguel Cabrera would…not get any votes.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
11:01 am
The other a guy who’s 20 and has plenty of time to win every single MVP for the next 10 years.
He just may do it.
This isn’t going to shape up like Howard vs Utley.
What year was that again? I’m so happy Howard won. It produced one very awful contract.
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
11:02 am
For the record, I would vote for Trout, but if Cabrera won, I would be OK with that. I would not rant or get in anyone’s face.
Lew
September 20th, 2012
11:04 am
If he wins the Triple Crown, Cabrera should win the MVP – that’s all there is to it. Trout will win the ROY – and that is as it should be.
And finally – someone admits no statistic is perfect. Not BA, not RBI, not WAR. They all have some meaning – even those that were invented recently – and all are about as relevant as any other – though WAR is highly suspect at best.
So I’m going with the accomplishment that hasn’t happened in five decades – if it were as meaningless as some would have it then more would accomplish it.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
11:04 am
Think about it this way: If MLB gave out MVOP (Most Valuable Offensive Player) and MVDP (figure it out), then Miguel Cabrera would win MVOP in the AL, with Trout finishing second. Trout would win MVDP, and Miguel Cabrera would…not get any votes.
Excellent way of putting it.
Trader Jack
September 20th, 2012
11:05 am
Murph
September 20th, 2012
10:52 am
Give Cabrera the MVP, Trout the ROY, done and done.
Agreed. It’s a win/win for both parties, and they each get a trophy to boot!
Lew
September 20th, 2012
11:06 am
Yeah, but they aren’t giving out two awards recognizing defense and not.
RC
September 20th, 2012
11:07 am
Ok, I’m now tired of the AL MVP talk. Back to hypothetical Braves trades.
Here is a legit question, and one that I’m not sure I know my own answer to. Assuming each player’s season would have turned out the same, if given the chance to go back in time and revisit the proposed trade of Martin Prado, Jair Jurrjens, and Arodys Vizcaino (or Delgado or Teheran) for Adam Jones, would you go back and do the deal in Frank Wren’s position?
Jones’s current line: 95 runs, 30 HR, 77 RBI, 14 SB, .286/.336/.506 avg/obp/slg
TheOnlyBravesFan
September 20th, 2012
11:08 am
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi
In MVP race, consider the fear/respect factor shown by opposing mangers. Mike Trout has been walked intentionally 3 times this year.
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi
Even with Prince Fielder behind him, Miguel Cabrera has been intentionally walked 15 times this season. That is remarkable.
Cabrera for MVP!!!
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
11:08 am
The point is, Lew, that in my opinion, voting for Cabrera for MVP is basically saying that MVP is offense-only award. I don’t think that’s necessarily some backwards way of thinking…indeed, MVPs have been given to great offensive players throughout history. I just view MVP as a more comprehensive thing.
George_George
September 20th, 2012
11:08 am
raleighbravefan
September 20th, 2012
10:18 am
I don’t know if Prado could catch or pitch, but I’d bet he would give it his best effort inf asked. He may be our emergency catcher right now, with Diaz out.
Highest priority may be to lock him up, at least 5 years.
**************************************************************
Good morning all
raleighbravefan, even if I know you don’t like me at all. I totally AGREE with you on your above post. We should not let him get away.
brian
September 20th, 2012
11:09 am
if cabrera does not win the triple crown, he should not win the MVP award. Silver Slugger award yes. MVP no – he is just too big a liability on defense and on the basepaths. Trout’s bat is not far behind, he has the steals, and he plays great defense.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
11:09 am
I guess my main point in starting that whole MVP discussion was that it’s not such a no-brainer as my buddy Mr. Law seems to think.
I mean, maybe it is and I just don’t see it that way. That could be the case, too.
In any event, both them sumbees can ball and that’s a fact.
TheOnlyBravesFan
September 20th, 2012
11:10 am
To me, it seems like you can help your team out more by being a great hitter than by being a great defender. As long as you aren’t a complete butcher in the field, I’ll take your hitting prowess
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
11:10 am
Let’s say Josh Hamilton finishes with 44 homers.
If Cabrera has 44 homers, he should be the MVP, but if he has 43, Trout should be the MVP? I just think that’s a weird line of thinking.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
11:10 am
Shocked at Adam Jones’ year. I didn’t even like the five year, 85 million dollar deal he got prior this season. But I was wrong, I guess.
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
11:11 am
Ok, I’m now tired of the AL MVP talk. Back to hypothetical Braves trades.
Ha!
Brian from SC
September 20th, 2012
11:11 am
As long as you aren’t a complete butcher in the field, I’ll take your hitting prowess
So, Trout, then?
Fols
September 20th, 2012
11:12 am
Where’s George…I thought for sure he’d be calling for a coaching change after FG left McCann in to run?
I now firmly believe that if we had the best record in baseball, he’d still want a coaching change.
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
11:14 am
I sorta wish some folks valued defense and baserunning more than they do. The game is more about the bat, and that makes sense. But there is a lot of value in the glove and the legs. You can’t be Jose Constanza at the plate, though. That’s for sure.
abeeeewright
September 20th, 2012
11:14 am
I’m picking Krandon Beachlen for my fantasy team. That guy seems to be pretty good.
How tall is he?
ncscoots
September 20th, 2012
11:15 am
I just think that’s a weird line of thinking.
You need to tap into your inner dinosaur.
Lew
September 20th, 2012
11:15 am
I’ll go along with the defensive aspect being more important to baseball people the day that an all glove, no bat player is offered a multi year contract larger than the best offensive player contract signed that year.
Defense IS important and I sincerely doubt any knowledgebale baseball person would disagree, but it’s the offense that brings in the fans (Chicks dig the Long Ball and whatnot) and brings the money – not making great plays in the field. They don’t have a fielding derby at the All Star Game, do they?
Efrim
September 20th, 2012
11:16 am
As long as you aren’t a complete butcher in the field, I’ll take your hitting prowess
Hah! Oh Miggy would be working at Lobel’s in Yankee Stadium. Lead man there.
RC
September 20th, 2012
11:17 am
I’m picking Krandon Beachlen for my fantasy team. That guy seems to be pretty good.
How tall is he?
Somewhere between 6′3″ and 5′10″.
Lew
September 20th, 2012
11:17 am
And I haven’t heard a single plea here in DOBLand for the Braves to fill the two outfield positions this winter with defensive wizards – everyone wants a boomer in the middle of the lineup.
RC
September 20th, 2012
11:18 am
I’d like to see a steel cage match pitting Krandon Beachlen vs. O’Ventbrel. That’d be brutal.