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1,334 comments Add your comment
DAP
August 17th, 2012
2:42 pm
theonlybravesfan good setup reliever is fine, though it’d be really disappointing if that’s “all” he becomes…
disappointing is an understatement. this is a guy deemed untouchable in trades the last few years, because his ceiling was ace. if now his ceiling is #2, thats not good either.
cricket
August 17th, 2012
2:42 pm
That means we still need a #1, who can be around for 4/5 years.
it still won’t be greinke
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
2:42 pm
He has uncanny fastball control
I don’t think he has the best command. And I’ve read enough people who feel that way as well. Isn’t control a bit different though. Command of the pitch so it doesn’t get hammered. Control of the pitch so you’re not walking the bases loaded each time. I don’t know….
cricket
August 17th, 2012
2:47 pm
ok, found it Efrim, now we can sleep in peace
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/230151-control-vs-command-whats-the-difference
Control
To have control over one’s pitches means that a pitcher is able to throw strikes. Not just out of the zone swings and misses either, but actual called strikes. A pitcher needs to exhibit the ability to throw a fastball for a strike at any time during an at-bat. They need to make sure that their breaking balls will cross the plate in the strike zone.
If a pitcher is routinely recording quick outs and getting ahead of hitters (0-2 and 1-2 counts) than he has good control because he is routinely throwing strikes.
Without control, basically all hell breaks loose for the guy on the mound. If you don’t have a good feel for your pitches, then it’s going to be a night of free base runners and a lot of runs due to unintentional walks and undoubtedly a multitude of pitches up in the zone.
Some pitchers that have mastered the art of control are Roy Halladay, Mariano Rivera, Tim Lincemcum, and the recently retired Mike Mussina.
Command
Now command can really be a sub-set category under control. Once a pitcher gains control over their pitches they must then move on to learning command. Pitchers with good command have the talent to place their pitches any where they want within the strike zone; they are able to throw not just strikes, but good strikes.
A normal strike can just be a fastball up in the zone that the hitter just misses. A good strike can be a pitch that just gets the outside corner and sends a batter back to the dugout or a ball tailing inside that jams a hitter.
Older pitchers who can’t throw as hard as they used but are still finding at least moderate success (Trevor Hoffman, Jamie Moyer, and Randy Johnson) have all mastered command. Sure they can’t burn you with a 95 plus fastball, but they could ring you up with an 88 MPH cutter that paints the corners or a 76 MPH curve that crosses the plate just at the knees.
Command and control…similar, but not quite the same. These two skills are necessary for any pitcher who wants to elevate their game to the next level. Without the ability to control and command, you will be riding that minor league bus for a long long time.
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
2:51 pm
disappointing is an understatement. this is a guy deemed untouchable in trades the last few years, because his ceiling was ace. if now his ceiling is #2, thats not good either.
If Teheran is a #2, that will be great. That’s a pitcher the quality of a Tim Hudson.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
2:51 pm
it still won’t be greinke
We’ll see
if now his ceiling is #2, thats not good either.
#2 isn’t all that bad, despite all the hype he’s had… we haven’t had a homegrown #2 that I can think of in recent memory. Last guy I can think of who was #1/2 type was Javier Vasquez, and we traded for him.
Brian from SC
August 17th, 2012
2:52 pm
Simply put, control is throwing the ball in the strike zone. Command is throwing pitches where you want them to be, in the strike zone, and sometimes out of it.
cricket
August 17th, 2012
2:54 pm
if now his ceiling is #2, thats not good either.
i’ll be extremely happy with that ceiling
cricket
August 17th, 2012
2:55 pm
Simply put, control is throwing the ball in the strike zone. Command is throwing pitches where you want them to be, in the strike zone, and sometimes out of it.
why simplify things when one can write 12 para blog post about them?
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
2:56 pm
That was a very good article by Sickels about rating starting pitchers. Couldn’t agree more with the part about Greinke, why he’s not a true No. 1 right now because of the makeup. Which is why it makes no sense to me that anyone believes Greinke should be one of the two or three highest-paid pitchers in the game. You pay a pitcher $20 million a year in a long-term deal, you better be getting a bonafide No. 1 guy, a bada– who goes out and produces year after year, and certainly a pitcher you don’t have to worry about each week, whether he’s going to be in the right frame of mind and whether everything’s OK with him. The guy making those bucks should be the least of your worries, like a Verlander or Halladay, or going back a bit, a Clemens or Maddux, etc.
Just saw this from yesterday. I certainly agree that Greinke may be a #2, whatever the reason. It could very well be make-up issues. I’m not going to get in to dime store psychology. I’ll stick to things that are plain for all to see.
As far as what is reasonable for a team to pay him, I think $20M a year is reasonable. I don’t think it’s wise for every team to pay him that but I wouldn’t think a team is absolutely crazy for doing it.
It doesn’t matter all that much what Verlander signed for in 2010, at least not directly. The best estimates have Verlander’s performance over the last 3-4 years at over $25M a year. In a couple of seasons since the start of 2009, he’s been worth over $30M, in terms of free agent dollars per wins.
So if Verlander were a free agent at the end of this season, he could probably command and get comfortably over $20M a year, assuming he wouldn’t be giving the Tigers a hometown discount, etc. Which means $20M a year for Greinke at this moment is not unreasonable for at least a few teams.
Basically even if a pitcher has some deficiencies and is not a #1, but may be a #2, a #2 starter in the free agent market that is still relatively young is probably worth $20M to quite a few teams.
The price of a player is based on what his market value is now. It’s not directly based on what certain pitchers may have been paid or even what they may have been worth in past free agent signing seasons.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
2:56 pm
If Teheran is a #2, that will be great. That’s a pitcher the quality of a Tim Hudson.
And that’s pretty dang good.
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
2:58 pm
TheOnlyBravesFan, Javier Vazquez had some huge seasons. Overall, during the bulk of his career, I would say he was probably a #2 or a #3. I don’t think he was a #1. I just don’t think he was consistently great enough year-in and year-out to be considered a #1.
kenhotlanta
August 17th, 2012
2:59 pm
Just a note, FWIW: I am having vision issues that can be corrected (I hope), but will take some time. Also my eBay business is requiring most of my time because I can’t do it as fast as I need to, so I don’t have the time to post right now, but I do scan the blog. I miss the daily repartee, but I have to TCOB and I look forward to the day things get back to normal. Good to see haggard today and his post @ 11:43 was spot-on. Selah.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:01 pm
The Dodgers can probably afford to pay Zack Greinke 20 million a year. ….
Another interesting pitcher that I’ve thought may get a qualifying offer this winter is Jake Peavy. Guy has been awesome for the White Sox this year, but has a 22 million dollar option for 2013 that’s just not going to get picked up. 4 million dollar buyout. Might make sense for the White Sox to make the qualifying offer to him after declining the 22 million dollar option.
kenhotlanta
August 17th, 2012
3:02 pm
McFann: I have a Nikon Cool-pix 5700…any tips on taking extreme close ups of jewelry, small objects, and very small writing? Thanks in advance.
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:04 pm
So if we need a #1 and Greinke clearly isn’t a number one (according to most opinions on here including DOB), who do you get!?
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:05 pm
“so you claim. besides, is it possible there are other things that make chipper truly special in the context of the HOF? i think there are. switch hitter is one of those things.”
I just addressed the issue of Chipper being a switch hitter
Let’s review
1. Chipper’s strongest claim to being elite level special is being a switch hitter. (In other words, he is higher on the list of switch hitters than he is on the list of third basemen)
2. There is a switch hitter who is a clear level (if not two levels) better than Chipper Jones – that player being Mickey Mantle
3. When there is a player out there who is a clear level better than you at what you do best, then you are not a rightful first ballot HOFer
Chipper is first ballot for the Braves franchise HOF – second ballot for Cooperstown
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:09 pm
Potential free agents to get one year, $13.3 million dollar qualifying offer:
Hamilton – Rangers
Bourn – Braves
Ortiz – Red Sox
Swisher – Yankees
Jackson – Nationals
Peavy – White Sox
Lew
August 17th, 2012
3:09 pm
His ceiling is only a number two now.
OK – So everyone who figured him for a number one )i.e. – those who are now saying he can attain nothing better than number two) were wrong but they’re not now? And all because a 21 year old pitcher who is younbg for the level where he’s pitching, had a setback in his perceived (also by those who were right but aren’t anymore) development?
Whatever.
McFann :Ô: :Ô: :ô:
August 17th, 2012
3:09 pm
kenhotlanta—
Hmm…Well, I’m still pretty new to these things myself, but does your camera have a “nature setting”? (It’d be the thing on the setting dial with the flower icon, most likely.) It’s good for taking closeups, or it has been for me, anyway…
Focussing cann be a little tricky…And holding the camera steady is key, as well…
Wish I had some better tips for ya…But I hope that was helpful!…
McFann :Ô: :Ô: :ô:
August 17th, 2012
3:10 pm
Holy shoot! Who let Robert out?…
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
3:11 pm
So if we need a #1 and Greinke clearly isn’t a number one (according to most opinions on here including DOB), who do you get!?
Who said the Braves need a #1? A team can have a perfectly acceptable rotation, even a pretty good one, without a #1.
JC Brave
August 17th, 2012
3:12 pm
This weekend will be one of the most annoying weekends of 2012…
Victorino, Ramirez, Kemp, Ethier. Four headaches for Braves’ pitchers…
May God have mercy on their souls.
Venice Jim
August 17th, 2012
3:13 pm
When there is a player out there who is a clear level better than you at what you do best, then you are not a rightful first ballot HOFer
It is amazing that someone can stun us with the amazing ability to say things that are more ridiculous than many of his past unimaginable comments…
The Blogger Formerly Known as Billy
August 17th, 2012
3:14 pm
Love how the DOB tweeps are calling him Don….think its awesome. Real fun.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
3:14 pm
The Dodgers can probably afford to pay Zack Greinke 20 million a year.
LA’s too harsh for him… ATL all the way!
Javier Vazquez…during the bulk of his career… was probably a #2 or a #3.
That I can agree with. And that’s still pretty decent. A good strikeout pitcher too. We haven’t had a #2 (Tommy Hanson was headed there, and he got hurt) and we haven’t had a good power arm in a while either.
If Julio Teheran can become a #2, I’ll be very happy.
brian
August 17th, 2012
3:15 pm
I still thin Teheran’s ceiling is a #1 starter though that looks less likely to me now. A solid #2 is more likely. It all depends on his developing his secondary pitches – he has a good change and if he really develops a solid slider he would be really tough especially if he can throw the curve a couple times a game. He could learn a cutter or different grip to make his fastball move more while keeping good control of it as well. He is but 21 years old with a true major league arm.
Lots and ifs and buts but all is still possible with age and raw ability
Mrs Waffle House or Bust
August 17th, 2012
3:15 pm
Yeah, well, he never thanks me either. He better check his toothbrush. I clean the toilet with it on Fridays.
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:15 pm
Shaun – There are a few on here that believe we need that. Or at least a borderline #1/#2.
I’m apparently fine with a roster full of #3’s.
ncbravesfan90
August 17th, 2012
3:15 pm
So now some on here will be satisfied if Teheran ends up as a #2 starter? Considering last offseason and the offseason before we could have acquired just about any player we wanted to for him and didn’t, he better be dang good and im talking as good as Kershaw, Verlander, Sabathia, Cain.
brian
August 17th, 2012
3:16 pm
I could easily see Teheran becoming what Greinke is – a #2 that will have some runs as good as most #1s but not consistently there
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
3:17 pm
OK – So everyone who figured him for a number one )i.e. – those who are now saying he can attain nothing better than number two) were wrong but they’re not now? And all because a 21 year old pitcher who is younbg for the level where he’s pitching, had a setback in his perceived (also by those who were right but aren’t anymore) development?
I think most scouts would have said he’s probably a #2 all along, with a #1 ceiling. That’s pretty darn good. Calling a pitcher a likely #2 (with a #1 ceiling, if everything goes well) is not a knock. And if the view of him has changed since any perceived set-backs, it hasn’t changed drastically.
JC Brave
August 17th, 2012
3:19 pm
The Braves’ Organizational atmosphere would be a good fit for Greinke’s health issues, I believe.
ChattTownBrian
August 17th, 2012
3:19 pm
Robert, boy you’re dumber than a pile a horse sh**.
Chipper has never struck out more than 100 times in a season. Ever. 99 times he did it in his first full year. He was a rook. He has almost 100 more walks in his career than strikeouts. What the fu** – unreal. Comparison would be Heyward who has already surpassed the 100 strikeout mark twice and would’ve last year if he’d stayed on the field. Freeman did it 142 times his rookie season and probaby will again.
I doubt either of those two will hit 45 homeruns in a season and have a OBP over .400 in their careers. McCann is the closest thing we’ll see to a Chipper as far as a natural, pure hitter. He’s battling the shoulder thing right now which has skewed his numbers. He’ll be back in ‘13 I’m sure.
ChattTownBrian
August 17th, 2012
3:21 pm
Should say BMac is the closest thing we’ll see to a Chipper in Atlanta for a really long time. That is my opinion, but it’s strong I think.
Brian from SC
August 17th, 2012
3:23 pm
Ian Desmond has been activated for the Nats.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
3:23 pm
So if we need a #1 and Greinke clearly isn’t a number one (according to most opinions on here including DOB), who do you get!?
Well, since I was the one to say that we need a #1, I get to decide who is a #1. And I say that Greinke is the only #1 who will be a FA and that we should target. There are no #1s that we can afford to trade for.
Greinke or bust!
ChattTownBrian
August 17th, 2012
3:24 pm
Robert is just retarded. It’s laughable how stupid this boy is. I have low tolerance for stupid ass people who actually think they’re out smarting others who have a functioning brain.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:25 pm
#1 or #2 – Just keep the kid in the Atlanta system through this offseason.
JC Brave
August 17th, 2012
3:26 pm
Should say BMac is the closest thing we’ll see to a Chipper in Atlanta for a really long time.
I’m not a Kool-Aid Drinker when it comes to Heyward, but his K/BB ratio before he was asked to be more aggressive by Cox, was quite good.
He walked a lot and didn’t strikeout all that much. His strikezone recognition was amazing for his age. If he can go back to those tendencies, I don’t see why Heyward couldn’t be something at least near a player such as Chipper for the Braves.
cricket
August 17th, 2012
3:27 pm
Teheran is not going anywhere and Greinke is not coming to ATL
ncbravesfan90
August 17th, 2012
3:27 pm
Todd Redmond will be recalled to start the second game of Saturday’s doubleheader against the Cubs.
Redmond has been up with the Reds a couple times this season but hasn’t appeared in any games. He’s held a nice 3.54 ERA and 125/34 K/BB ratio over 134 2/3 innings at the Triple-A level this season. The 27-year-old will be making his major league debut.
Source: Tom Groeschen on Twitter
ChattTownBrian
August 17th, 2012
3:27 pm
McCann’s career numbers are awesome. What a shame his shoulder is barking at him right now. Great hitter.
ncbravesfan90
August 17th, 2012
3:28 pm
Braves optioned RHP Cory Gearrin to Triple-A Gwinnett.
David O'Brien
August 17th, 2012
3:28 pm
Braves optioned Gearrin to Triple-A to open spot for Hanson.
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:28 pm
“Should say BMac is the closest thing we’ll see to a Chipper in Atlanta for a really long time.”
I wouldn’t bet on it. I think the safer bet would be on Heyward or Freeman being the face of the franchise and putting up those kinds of numbers, not McCann.
DAP
August 17th, 2012
3:29 pm
shaun If Teheran is a #2, that will be great. That’s a pitcher the quality of a Tim Hudson.
like i said, if he turns out to be a “good setup reliever” that would be more than just dissapointing.
cricketif now his ceiling is #2, thats not good either.
i’ll be extremely happy with that ceiling
if he reaches it, fine. but thats not what he was leading into this season. he was untouchable with an ace ceiling.
cricket
August 17th, 2012
3:29 pm
what the heck are children aged 3 to 5 years old supposed to do??
First they came for the Simpsons and now they want SpongeBob Squarepants. The Ukraine is considering a move to censor several children’s shows after a new study from a conservative commission labeled the shows “a real threat” to the country’s youth.
The Ukraine’s National Expert Commission for Protecting Public Morality released the report, which attacks several U.S. and international programs as detrimental to the country.
Psychologist Irina Medvédeva is quoted in the study, alleging that children aged 3 to 5 years old, “pull faces and make jokes in front of adults they don’t know, laugh out loud and repeat nonsense phrases in a brazen manner,” after viewing the shows.
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
3:30 pm
Shaun – There are a few on here that believe we need that. Or at least a borderline #1/#2
Just because they believe it doesn’t make it so. A team can get by just fine without a #1.
I’m apparently fine with a roster full of #3’s.
The Braves aren’t all that far off from that right now. I’d say Hudson is the only #2. And the Braves are 4th in the league in ERA+.
So now some on here will be satisfied if Teheran ends up as a #2 starter? Considering last offseason and the offseason before we could have acquired just about any player we wanted to for him and didn’t, he better be dang good and im talking as good as Kershaw, Verlander, Sabathia, Cain.
Everyone should be pretty satisfied of Teheran becomes a #2. Do you know how good #2 starters are? Seems like you don’t. You’re standards are pretty extreme if you think Teheran better be like a Verlander, Kershaw, etc. Those guys are #1’s and there just aren’t that many of them.
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:30 pm
“Chipper has never struck out more than 100 times in a season. Ever. 99 times he did it in his first full year. He was a rook. He has almost 100 more walks in his career than strikeouts.”
There is absolutely no doubt that Chipper Jones is a truly gifted hitter. As a matter of fact, I think he is one of only a handful of players in the game that can truly be called HITTERS – as opposed to HACKERS
Chipper Jones was and remains a great hitter.
As great as he was – as great as he is – as much as the Braves nation loves and cherishes him – I can name you a player who did what Chipper did a level and half to two levels better (Mantle)
To me that means Chipper is not a first ballot HOFer
But let’s put this another way – you make a big deal about the fact that Chipper never out 100 times in a season. That he struck out more than he walked
Joe DiMaggio barely had more strikeouts than HOME RUNS for his CAREER
Joe DiMaggio was not elected to Cooperstown on the first ballot.
Now I think he shouldve been. But the notion to have Chipper Jones a s first ballot selection when DiMaggio wasnt is ABSURD
Luman Harris
August 17th, 2012
3:31 pm
So if a pitcher wins 15 straight starts …. does that make him a #1?
Who cares what number a guy is if he wins?
phil
August 17th, 2012
3:31 pm
Should I know who this Robert guy is after 18 months?
Good grief. Because there was once Mickey Mantle, Chipper isn’t a first ballot HOFer….
I’ve seen some dumb stuff here and written some too, but that takes a large slice of the cake.
ChattTownBrian
August 17th, 2012
3:31 pm
Heyward is a great player who will get better I’m sure. 5 tool type. I’m just saying a Chipper he will never be. Every single year with Chipper. He hit the ground running. He’s still our best hitter. Wow
ncbravesfan90
August 17th, 2012
3:33 pm
“Everyone should be pretty satisfied of Teheran becomes a #2. Do you know how good #2 starters are? Seems like you don’t. You’re standards are pretty extreme if you think Teheran better be like a Verlander, Kershaw, etc. Those guys are #1’s and there just aren’t that many of them.”
All I’m saying is that considering the return in value in a trade that we could have got for him he better be real good, like an ace for this staff. All I heard was how he was going to be the ace of this staff for years to come, the #1 starter. And now it seems that people are lowering our expectations. I will be disappointed if he ends up being a #2 starter due to the fact that he was/is the #1 prospect in the whole Braves organization and the type of player(s) we could have obtained for him in a trade.
phil
August 17th, 2012
3:33 pm
Joe DiMaggio was a wuss and quit at a much younger age than Chipper….
Yankee clipper my shirt sleeve….
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:33 pm
McCann .280 .353 .479 .832
Chipper .304 .402 .532 .934
Freeman .277 .344 .452 .796
Heyward .262 .358 .448 .806
Not really in the same hemisphere, but Freeman and Heyward are young.
JC Brave
August 17th, 2012
3:35 pm
There were scouts before the 2011 season saying Teheran was NOT an Ace.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:35 pm
So if a pitcher wins 15 straight starts …. does that make him a #1?
Who cares what number a guy is if he wins?
Totally. I mean, I’d definitely take Kris Medlen over….
Justin Verlander
Felix Hernadez
C.C. Sabathia
David Price
Jered Weaver
Clayton Kershaw
Cole Hamels
Roy Halladay
Cliff Lee
Matt Cain
He’s better than all of em.
DAP
August 17th, 2012
3:36 pm
robert I just addressed the issue of Chipper being a switch hitter
yes, and i just addressed that its ONE of the things that makes him unique.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:37 pm
Whoops. Forgot Stephen Strasburg in my little list of the top pitchers in the sport.
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:37 pm
“Totally. I mean, I’d definitely take Kris Medlen over….”
He has been better than some of those guys on the list this year…(Lincecum needs to be on there too)
Venice Jim
August 17th, 2012
3:37 pm
Jon Morosi @jonmorosi
#Rangers announce Ryan Dempster will miss #BlueJays series due to personal reasons, placed on restricted list. Roy Oswalt starts Saturday.
Lew
August 17th, 2012
3:38 pm
A vote for induiction into the HOF is not a referendum on whether or not you were better than anyone else already inducted.
Fact of the matter is that both Mantle and Chipper were both great players who dominated during their eras. They both are deserving of enshrinement and both of being First ballot inductees and in no way whatsoever does Chipper being inducted on the first ballot reflect on Mantle’s career or position in any hierarchy.
To believe that it does is plain freaking stupid.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
3:38 pm
The Braves’ Organizational atmosphere would be a good fit for Greinke’s health issues, I believe.
We’re the only ones who are a good fit. Which is why he’ll be coming here.
So now some on here will be satisfied if Teheran ends up as a #2 starter?
Why not? It’s not like they said he’s gonna be a back of the rotation starter (4,5) or an avg. starter (3). The only thing that I said would disappoint me is if he ends up being a set-up man.
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:39 pm
“Rangers announce Ryan Dempster will miss #BlueJays series due to personal reasons, placed on restricted list. Roy Oswalt starts Saturday.”
Replacing crazy with crazy, that’ll work.
DAP
August 17th, 2012
3:39 pm
lew those who are now saying he can attain nothing better than number two) were wrong but they’re not now?
good point lew. truth is, nobody knows.
shaun That’s pretty darn good. Calling a pitcher a likely #2 (with a #1 ceiling, if everything goes well) is not a knock.
the point is, the opinion of his ceiling seems to have changed. doesnt instill confidence in those ascribing ceiling.
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:40 pm
“Comparison would be Heyward who has already surpassed the 100 strikeout mark twice and would’ve last year if he’d stayed on the field. Freeman did it 142 times his rookie season and probaby will again.
I doubt either of those two will hit 45 homeruns in a season and have a OBP over .400 in their careers”
Comparing Chipper’s nearly completed career numbers to the flashes of promise shown by the likes of Heyward and Freeman and using that as the basis to declare Chipper first ballot material for Cooperstown is absurd
And lemme tell you – if Brian McCann is the closest thing we see to Chipper Jones for a long time, then we’re in for some lean years
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
3:40 pm
if he reaches it, fine. but thats not what he was leading into this season. he was untouchable with an ace ceiling.
#2’s should be pretty close to untouchable also. If Teheran’s stock has dropped (and it seems it has), it hasn’t by much.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
He has been better than some of those guys on the list this year…
Of course, and since your a small sample sort of guy, it would make sense that you would take Kris Medlen over all of em, right?
Venice Jim
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
Now I think he shouldve been. But the notion to have Chipper Jones a s first ballot selection when DiMaggio wasnt is ABSURD
I suspect no one who knows baseball would disagree with the first sentence there – but the 2nd part is like saying “since some stupid thing happened 55 years ago it should still be happening now”…
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:41 pm
“the opinion of his ceiling seems to have changed. doesnt instill confidence in those ascribing ceiling.”
Yeh, so is Tim Lincecum no longer a #1? We need some sort of scoreboard tracker that keeps all these numbers straight, so I can know whether a guy is currently a #1,#2, or #3. We can have their status change every day.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
Wow, another situation with Dempster… He’s sure not helping Texas. Glad we didn’t get him.
Teheran is not going anywhere and Greinke is not coming to ATL
It’d be so interesting if you’re wrong on both…
Gearrin going down for Hanson, eh? I was hoping it’d be Avilan, but Gearrin isn’t a bad option either, I guess. I just don’t see the need for 3 lefties in a 6man bullpen. Kimbrel, Durbin, and Martinez are the only righties left. I prefer Gearrin to Martinez.
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:44 pm
“They both are deserving of enshrinement and both of being First ballot inductees and in no way whatsoever does Chipper being inducted on the first ballot reflect on Mantle’s career or position in any hierarchy.”
Lew – There MUST be a way for the game and its history to acknowledge that, while Mantle and Chipper were both great, Mantle was clearly better. If you give them both the SAME honor of first ballot selection to the HOF, then you have left yourself no way to acknowledge the seperation between them
Son, if Mantle were the Brave and Chipper were the Yankee, you’d be up in arms at the prospect of giving them both the same honor
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:44 pm
“Of course, and since your a small sample sort of guy, it would make sense that you would take Kris Medlen over all of em, right?”
Well depends on the price tag. Overpaying for production is absurd. Why pay a guy $25 million to be a #1 and win when you can win just as many games with a #3 or #4 in Medlen.
And the list of #1’s is it based on their stuff/makeup/etc or is it based on their stats? It seems a lot of these lists suffer from checking out their stats.
ncbravesfan90
August 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
1. Michael Bourn (L) CF
2. Martin Prado (R) LF
3. Jason Heyward (L) RF
4. Chipper Jones (S) 3B
5. Freddie Freeman (L) 1B
6. Dan Uggla (R) 2B
7. David Ross (R) C
8. Paul Janish (R) SS
9. Tommy Hanson (R) P
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
3:46 pm
No Pastornicky and no Johnson? Geez Fredi…. Paul’s gonna fall down one of these days from exhaustion.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:47 pm
And the list of #1’s is it based on their stuff/makeup/etc or is it based on their stats? It seems a lot of these lists suffer from checking out their stats.
If it’s stuff + stats, Medlen doesn’t come near these guys track records.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
I just went through the list of starters in the majors, I’d say there is probably 35-40 pitchers that I’d consider a #2 starter or better.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
Well, looking at the stats, Reed is just 1-7, with a double, 1 RBI, and 1 K against Capuano… .143/.143/.286/.429
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
“but the 2nd part is like saying “since some stupid thing happened 55 years ago it should still be happening now”
Well, on the bottom end of things, thats exactly how guys like Mazeroski and Santo get in
Look, let’s try this
Guys like Mantle and Aaron and Mays and Ruth – were special to all of baseball ALMOST as much as they were to fans of their teams
Can ANYBODY here, besides me, acknowledge that Chipper Jones isnt NEARLY as special to fans in other markets as he is to the Braves nation?
That doesnt invalidate the Braves nation’s love for Chipper
That doesnt lessen any of what Chipper has done, or of what Chipper means to us
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
“Medlen doesn’t come near these guys track records.”
Because they don’t LET HIM pitch.
When he pitches, the Braves win. And he is cheap. What more could the Braves ask for?
Ward
August 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
Hello everyone! Great day today, and happy about last night. A good bench move – would be to let Hinske go, and go with Mejia next year. Mejia is younger, and can give Freeman a rest a few times to keep Freeman sharp.
Ward
August 17th, 2012
3:51 pm
Medlen should start,and trade Hanson for prospects, or for a bat depending on Bourn, and what he does?
Lew
August 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
Robert refusing to see the forest for the pine needles.
Calm down Dude – No one is dissing Mantle by electing Chipper on the First Ballot.
And I ain’t your son – not only am I old enough to be your father, if I was I’d have whipped your behind years ago and you wouldn’t have developed in such a warped manner.
cricket
August 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
all we are missing here now are .Don and Lou
time to get outta here
Shaun
August 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
All I’m saying is that considering the return in value in a trade that we could have got for him he better be real good, like an ace for this staff. All I heard was how he was going to be the ace of this staff for years to come, the #1 starter. And now it seems that people are lowering our expectations. I will be disappointed if he ends up being a #2 starter due to the fact that he was/is the #1 prospect in the whole Braves organization and the type of player(s) we could have obtained for him in a trade.
There is a big flaw here. It is that many don’t seem to realize that a #2 is going to be the best pitcher on most staffs. There just aren’t enough #1’s to go around to all 30 teams. So if a pitcher has the potential to be the “ace” of one particular staff, that pitcher could very well be a #2. Now, if you are saying he’s going to be the ace of any or most staffs, that’s a different story.
I think some are mixing up the scouting terms and actually being the best pitcher on a staff. The majority of the best pitchers on a given team are #2 types. The #1’s are the guys who are likely to contend for the Cy Young pretty much every year. There aren’t many.
There were scouts before the 2011 season saying Teheran was NOT an Ace.
This is exactly right. People just don’t understand that calling a guy less than an ace, even calling a guy a #3, is not a knock at all. Anything above a #4 is a darn good pitcher. Certainly a #2 is awesome.
the point is, the opinion of his ceiling seems to have changed. doesnt instill confidence in those ascribing ceiling.
It doesn’t seem the ceiling has changed. The ceiling has always been a #1 and still is. And most probably would say he’s likely to be a #2. Just because he’s dropped in many of the prospect rankings doesn’t necessarily change his ceiling or what he’s likely to be.
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:55 pm
“Fact of the matter is that both Mantle and Chipper were both great players who dominated during their eras”
The fact of the matter is that the degree to which Mantle dominated was on a completely different level than the degree to which Chipper dominated
Chipper Jones has a career adjusted OPS of 141, is an eight time All-Star, a one time league MVP, and a one time World Champion
Mantle had a career adjusted OPS of 172, was a 16 time All-Star, a three time MVP, and a 7 time World Champion
Those two lists of accomplishment may be COMPARABLE – but to even HINT that they are EQUIVALENT is : A) patently absurd and B) a slight to the legacy of Mantle
And admitting this is NOT an insult to or slighting of, Chipper Jones
Robert
August 17th, 2012
3:56 pm
“No one is dissing Mantle by electing Chipper on the First Ballot.”
In fact, yes they are
SON
Ward
August 17th, 2012
3:57 pm
Also we might not need a 3rd baseman if Francisco keeps hitting, and continues to improve next year? All Wren, might have to do is tweak the bullpen, and deepen it. He might not have to do much at all?
Ward
August 17th, 2012
3:58 pm
Who cares, they are all HOF players?
DAP
August 17th, 2012
3:58 pm
robert Can ANYBODY here, besides me, acknowledge that Chipper Jones isnt NEARLY as special to fans in other markets as he is to the Braves nation?
i think he actually is pretty special to other fans and the other franchises notice it. notice the the stuff they have done for him in the other ballparks this year, including the reception he got in KC. another swing and a miss by robert.
Lew
August 17th, 2012
3:58 pm
Damn -they didn’t have my last comment to Robert under review, they just wouldnt post it.
BravePack(FreeFan)
August 17th, 2012
3:59 pm
Ward what is your fascination with this Mejia guy?
Ward
August 17th, 2012
4:00 pm
I would let Diaz go too next year, and just keep Reed Johnson.
Efrim
August 17th, 2012
4:01 pm
With a little bit of a more critical eye, I went back through the list and it’s probably presently 30 pitchers as #2 starters or better instead of 35-40.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
4:01 pm
Also we might not need a 3rd baseman if Francisco keeps hitting, and continues to improve next year?
We need a 3B…. Francisco is not the answer. Not at all. He can’t hit lefties.
MFin04
August 17th, 2012
4:03 pm
It is kinda a nice balance switching between reading Wards/Shauns posts. A beautiful composition of Yin/Yang if you will.
Ward
August 17th, 2012
4:03 pm
Mejia an All Star, and has speed, and some power…….Great for bench, and younger, and cheaper.
Ward
August 17th, 2012
4:03 pm
Mejia an All Star, and has speed, and some power…….Great for bench, and younger, and cheaper.
TheOnlyBravesFan
August 17th, 2012
4:03 pm
I would let Diaz go too next year, and just keep Reed Johnson.
Both of them are free agents… Reed’s got to want to come back.