3:02 pm July 28, 2012, by David O'Brien
July 28th, 20124:04 pm
Thanks for the new blog, DOB.
Then Cole Hamels signed a six-year, $144 million extension this week to stay with the Phillies, and I’m not longer doubting that Greinke will get more than $20 million per season if Hamels got $24 million.
I’ve come to accept that sports money logic isn’t the same as real world money logic…like how with “only” $1 million I could pay off my house, get a nice car, buy my parents a nice house to retire in, etc…how could someone need more than $20 annually?? I’m over that.
But here’s what I don’t get. Greinke’s going to sign some comically ridiculous contract. Doesn’t he realize that he’s crippling that team to acquire or keep talent? Say there’s a team he really likes. What if he signed for “only” $10 million annually so they could acquire another star. You’d think making a hefty paycheck and putting your team in a better chance to win would be better than making a ridiculous paycheck and signing Garret Anderson for left field.
July 28th, 20124:05 pm
I do think Shields is a better pitcher than Hanson. Just a difference of opinion. No biggie.
Glad to read such an intelligent and common sense analysis from DOB. The impatience shown by other writers is understandable, but not realistic. Hey, considering the ownership, the TV revenues, and the paltry attendance, Wren and the rest of the organization are doing a fantastic job. Medlen time! Go get a good reliever to replace him in the bullpen. Kris is a winner, and by now, his arm has strengthened enough from the TJ surgery that he can surely be a starter for two months and the playoffs. With his control and intelligence, Braves will be OK.
July 28th, 20124:06 pm
It is what it is…play ball!
July 28th, 2012
Tommy Hanson plus something for James Shields?????
I love it!
July 28th, 20124:07 pm
i think it’s medlen back to the rotation and we will trade for a couple nice bullpen arms that we can control for more than this year because i believe o’flaherty will be traded this offseason…going to be too pricey to keep
July 28th, 20124:08 pm
IMO We don’t really need a starter. We need a bat like Pence, Victorino or Cody Ross
Use the Medlen “option.” Spend Chipper’s and the rest of Lowe’s money on Bourn, or if Boras is crazy, on an equivalent. Hope some of the kids graduate to the bigs, a few will. We aren’t going to get a top of the rotation pitcher with out giving away Texiera type players and that was a bad idea then, and a bad idea now. Here’s the controversial part – as great as he is, trade Brian McCann to an American League team that needs a catcher, a first baseman and/or a DH down the road. Win-win for him, us (depending on what we get) and the team he lands with.
July 28th, 20124:09 pm
July 28th, 2012
Lawton, not a bad idea, but I bet the Rays are thinking the same thing…they want young, controllable prospects and not someone who like Tommy.
Good point, but I guess that’s where the “and something” could come into play as well.
I honestly see an off-season scenario where the Braves can only choose 2 of Hanson, Hudson and Sheets.I know Hanson is so much younger, but he only has one more year of control and Boras is his agent. I could honestly see a decision to go with Hudson and Sheets (assuming he would want to stay in Atlanta) and moving Tommy in the off-season any way. If Tommy struggles the rest of the way, I don’t think a non-tender is completely out of play.
Given the prices, I think we need to skip SP options, but we still need a RH bat for the bench. Surely, those prices aren’t astronomical.
“Tom Hart @tom_hart
Kris Medlen will start for #Braves Tuesday. Jurrjens now in bullpen.”
Hanson is now a curve ball pitcher and he is no Bert Blyleven.
We missed our chance at getting anyhting for Tommy via a trade.
I will say this, Baseball has been around a long time and the “rules/reality” doesn’t change. Anytime you see somebody that throws so differently than everyone else you can bet they will not last long. Anyone with half a brain knew Hanson would not last with that crazy start stop and start again delivery.
July 28th, 20124:10 pm
It’s understood that many fans in Atlanta are miffed about the lack of a big free agent signing thus far, rental player or not. As this is Chipper Jones’ last season I for one would love to see him go out with a championship, and it’s obvious that the starting pitching the Braves currently have could cost him that opportunity.
There have been many remarks made against Frank Wren and against Liberty Media, each of whom is held accountable for a (justified) perception that they’re reluctant to spend money or to part with top prospects. One can never know in the here and now exactly how a trade will turn out; the aforementioned Texiera trade failed to accomplish even a playoff appearance that season for Atlanta, and we’re still smarting from seeing so many of those prospects we traded figuring so heavily in the Rangers’ recent success. Still, it’s tempting to want to see changes made and prominent players brought in just to feel reassured that the ownership is making an effort to TRY.
Much of the frustration isn’t merely Frank Wren’s or Liberty Media’s fault; it’s a Pandora’s Box of ridiculous (but fully dictated by the Players’ Union and the larger markets who are willing to pay what they ask) player salaries in the modern era. The original intent of free agency was to give players the right to choose their employer as anyone should be able to; what it’s become is a broken system where only a handful of teams can afford to keep their best players once they hit free agency, let alone bring in new ones (enjoy Michael Bourn’s great production this season; he’ll almost certainly demand more than the Braves will even attempt to retain him for afterward). Most everyone, myself included, was excited about getting Dan Uggla at the time of the trade, but again, you can’t predict future results based upon what a player has done in the past, and now the Braves are over a barrel a couple hundred mil for a .200 hitter the past 1 1/2 seasons.
I’ll be the first to cheer if and when Liberty Media ever sells the Braves (and here’s hoping they’d go to a passionate, local human owner), but $90 million OUGHT to be enough to field (and keep) the best players you can get up and down the roster. Sadly, there’s a reason why perhaps the most notable thing about Chipper Jones’ career is that he spent his entire career with one team: greed and unnecessarily spiraling (and risky) player contracts have essentially made farm teams out of most of MLB. Get rid of guaranteed contracts or at least pay based on recent performance (as in month to month) and it would go a long way toward solving this discrepancy.
Just saw the Cody Ross, comment. If we could get him, I would be thrilled.
July 28th, 20124:11 pm
Is Insurance the same as cash?
July 28th, 20124:12 pm
Cody turn down the Braves offer last year.
@Rodney Derrick — Sure the Braves will be O.K.
But not championship or even WS level O.K.
All of our three major league teams are O.K. But O.K. is not good enough.
Hope Tom Hart is correct – Medlen will be just fine the last 11 starts – JJ in the bullpen, should be able to rest his knee and ‘regain his strength’
July 28th, 20124:13 pm
@onebravosfan what Cody Ross comment?
Great to see Meds given the chance to start for the team.
July 28th, 20124:14 pm
Wow, reckon that means a starter will not be acquired. Unbelievable. Speechless
If Tom Hart is correct about Medlen it more then likely mean that Wren is not going to get a starting pitcher would be that be right?
July 28th, 20124:15 pm
Announcing Meds to start Tuesday could be……
(A) for real
(B) posturing to maintain some leverage in trade discussions
(C) a little both
I think it is C
Loved the analysis DOB. Greinke was not the best option (King Felix please). I do like the idea of getting a quality bullpen arm and adding Medlen to the rotation. And, I pray Sheets can keep it up!
What was the Cody Ross quote?
July 28th, 20124:18 pm
Why would you be speechless? They just wrote what Wren told them that they’re moving on from getting a SP and focusing on bench bat and maybe a RP.
They’re just going to have to hope Hudson’s ankle will hold up, Hanson doesn’t stay this bad, Minor continues what he’s been doing, Sheets’ arm doesn’t fall off and now for Medlen to be better than JJ.
July 28th, 20124:19 pm
Put Medlen in the starting rotation and trade for Gregerson to bolster the bullpen.
July 28th, 20124:21 pm
Chris from the Rock; Buddy C. probably wouldn’t be another bad option I reckon since our GM’s hands are tied, after we move Meds in to #4 spot, hopes that Minor will keep pitch’n like nobody’s bus’ness, if he wants to keep roll’n. Just gotta keep the score down,keep’n you’re team in it, & attack’n da philsies hitters. Be aggressive w/ good ball movement, but aggressively smart. Don’t lay it in there too obvious for uncle howard & cuz’n utley to mash. C’mon lefty, we need you to be on point tonight. Roll On Bravos!
July 28th, 20124:22 pm
JJ in the BP. Yikes.
July 28th, 20124:23 pm
We are NOT one, starting pitcher away from the WS. I too want to win now, but why offer a ton of prospects for a 3-4 month rental? Conservative ownership requires patience. We may or may not make it this year, but I appreciate Wrenn’s mentality. Think about it- we’re going to have a lot more needs next year; like a center fielder,and a third baseman. We may need those prospects for other trades, just to field a friggin’ team next year!
So let’s work with what we got. Do the obvious- put Medlen in the rotation, and let’s go!!
“They’re just going to have to hope Hudson’s ankle will hold up, Hanson doesn’t stay this bad, Minor continues what he’s been doing, Sheets’ arm doesn’t fall off and now for Medlen to be better than JJ.”
Ahh gotta love all those question marks!! You figure if a man watched his team collapse in September last year that he would do everything in his power to make sure it didn’t happen again, and not have 5 question marks in a 5 man rotation. Just sayin.
Would anyone advocate a trade for Lester? Minor and a lessor prospect maybe. Getting away from the toxic red sox club house could benefit Lester.
July 28th, 20124:24 pm
Mark Bowman Mark Bowman @mlbbowman
Braves are still looking for a starter. If Medlen stays in rotation, even more of a need for the to acquire a reliever
danga, i agree…i dont even trust jj to throw an inning or two here and there
July 28th, 20124:25 pm
We missed our chance at getting anyhting for Tommy via a trade.
C’mon. This is hindsight at its worst. Hanson has been a very good pitcher for us over his career. Something is not right with him now, but the Braves would have been fools not to take full advantage of his arbitration years.
July 28th, 20124:26 pm
Tommy will make something like $7.5M next season, Adding a guy that makes $9M to $12M on top of Tommy’s $7.5M will leave very little flexibility to pursue a CFer and/or resign Sheets.
I know Hanson is so much younger, but he only has one more year of control and Boras is his agent.
If Tommy struggles the rest of the way, I don’t think a non-tender is completely out of play. _ Lawton
Good grief, man. You think Hanson will get $7.5m or he’ll get cut, Cy Young or bust, huh. Hanson is not going to get $7.5m, at most he will get $4m. Next year is his first arb year. The Braves may trade him, who knows, but they are not going to dump him.
don’t think so…
July 28th, 20124:27 pm
You figure if a man watched his team collapse in September last year that he would do everything in his power to make sure it didn’t happen again, and not have 5 question marks in a 5 man rotation.
I know. Like trading away our best long term options for answering those question marks for 2 months of 1 pitcher.
We are not going to have a 10 game lead in the WC race come 1 Sept like last year, just a small melt down will do us in this year.
July 28th, 20124:29 pm
good point. It’s my bad. For some reason I had JJ and Tommy’s service time and 2012 salary backwards in my mind.
I really don’t understand the Hanson bashing. The guy is having an “off” year but is still 11-5. If the braves did trade him teams would line up for his services.
July 28th, 20124:30 pm
Boras will ask for a raise for JJ in arbitration this year – don’t see it and JJ will really have to do something out of the bullpen in the final two months to warrant an offer near his $5.5M he currently makes.
July 28th, 20124:31 pm
“I know. Like trading away our best long term options for answering those question marks for 2 months of 1 pitcher.”
I didn’t say for a rental. And besides, I like the way one Braves player put it; What are we going to do with all these #4 starters that we’re holding onto in the minors?
Hey David O’Brien
Good column, and I agree with you.
Wack your esteemed collegue Jeff Schultz over the head for his pot-stirring joke of a current position on this matter.
Chipper is not owed a slightly better chance at a WS appearance just to mortgage the team’s future for years.
From afar I follow the Braves and get the local perspective here plus the national scope and then of course the AJC….Different perspective when you take a step back…. Beginning of a positive homestand and overall, not an imposing schedule through the dog-days…..We will be 2-3 back in the loss column when face the Nats again…..Will be a fun series on the Anacostia river for 1st at that time………… The issue, insightful contributors, is on the distant horizon where last September’s epic collapse will again become the topic……..(simultaneously when the pigskins start to fly and our divided fan base gets easily distracted…) and we head into September, playing “one for the Chipper” …………and…………………….. we have Rodger Dodger handling the pitchers and FG looking for redemption and defaulting to over-managing……The point, reax and enjoy the next 5 weeks and then be prepared for a hoot….
I was the one who mentioned Cody Ross. It was just a wish list not fact.
July 28th, 20124:32 pm
Love Meds, but we need a top of the rotation starter!!
Thanks for the work DOB.
Still disagree that the Teixeira trade was bad. Teixeira was excellent for the Braves. And the Braves traded from depth. Also, I’m not so sure JD Drew was around for two play-off chances with the Braves. I believe he was an off-season acquisition who produced his finest career season with the Braves.
Those two combined to play in 306 games for the Braves and hit a cumulative .300/.415/.558/.973 with 68 HR and 227 RBI and receive top 20 MVP votes.
It does amuse me though that the Braves set the trading bar high. Fitting really as it seems every other team set the free agent contract bar exceedingly high.
July 28th, 20124:33 pm
Its a different hindsight though. Sure, he is struggling now but again the delivery has train wreck written all over it. He had shoulder problems last year. I’d took a chance and gotten what I could for a good young pitcher in a lot of peoples eyes and would have been relatively confident that it would turn out well or at least a wash. He isn’t quite done yet its close. Just wait until everyone in the league figures out that he can’t jam them with the FB and his out pitch is a curve. Plus he’ll be behind in the count most of the time and will have to pitch backwards or throw 90 mph fastballs behind in the count.
Hate to sound negative or anti-Tommy. Isn’t meant to be. Its just reality and unfortunately, it appears the Braves brass have a hard time accepting reality somrtimes
The Tex trade may not have worked out well for the Braves, but I can think of a few that did: McGriff…Hudson…Smoltz et al. . It’s all part of the game, sometimes you gamble and it doesn’t work but sometimes you gamble and it does.
Anyway who knows if the people involved in the Tex trade would have evolved in ATL like they did in TX. Different organizations, different leagues, and different coaches.
The Braves Blog » Blog Archive » Braves wouldn’t make Tex-like mistake again on Greinke | Atlanta Braves
July 28th, 20124:34 pm
[...] the rest: http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/07/28/braves-wouldnt-make-a-tex-like-mistake-again-wit…. [Comments [...]
Eye-opening stuff DOB.
July 28th, 20124:35 pm
Talking about getting rid of Hanson doesn’t make much sense. First year arb eligible, and the team wins 70% of his starts. I know he’s frustrating to watch and does it with smoke and mirrors, but, 70%? That’s pretty impressive.
What are we going to do with all these #4 starters that we’re holding onto in the minors?
Seriously. All pitchers who struggle a bit at first in the majors turn out to be total garbage. We’ve definitely seen the best these guys have to offer already. Can we just trade them already so we can have the left overs of the free agent pool next season. At least there we can pay 5-10 million a year for a bunch of #4 starters.
July 28th, 20124:36 pm
I guess those of us who said Meds won’t start are wrong… He’ll go 5 innings on Tuesday I bet… don’t like JJ in pen, bet he isn’t too happy either… get him off the MLB roster, get a RHRP!!!
July 28th, 20124:37 pm
David Cone / John Smoltz / Andy Pettitte / Curt Schilling / Cliff Lee / Chris Carpenter.
Postseasons are for the pitching heroes.
Any comparable guy out there on the market? It not, just give Medlen a shot! Either that or dig up Javier Vazquez, wherever he is.
Yessiree what teams wouldn’t line up for a pitcher who gives up 7 stolen bases in one game! Still don’t know how the Braves won that game, except for the ineptness of the Marlins. Hanson is nothing more than Millwood Jr.
This was taken straight from Wikipedia:
*Glavine had mixed results during his first several years in the majors, compiling a 33–43 record from 1987 to 1990, including a 17-loss performance in 1988.
Why not look at Wade Davis, he’s young and was beat out by Jeff Niemann only because the Rays want him to be a reliever when we wants to be a starter, wouldn’t cost much, young and under contract for more than 2 years, c’mon Braves we need better pitching forget the bench and pen we need another good arm to start either a good trade or Medlen and for those who have doubted Sheets ha ha ha!!
July 28th, 20124:38 pm
I remember when every one wanted to trade our young talent for Dempster, whom by the way his record is only five and five. It,s stupid to waste our picks own good young talent and then give them away for high salary pitchers. The braves need to put more effort into signing our position players.
July 28th, 20124:39 pm
Michael Phelps is a BUMB!? and also a LOOSER…
but, bet he can bat more than .213 & play 2nd.
Listen Frank Wren just can’t pull the trigger on any deal. For every great prospect that is traded and does great there are just as many that are traded and don’t pan out. Cannot continue to live for tomorrow. Patience is wearing thin, especially with the fact that he chose to ignore an upgrade with starting in the off season. Wren made the choice and now it looks like he will go down for it, and he should!
Why even talk about trades when you’re damned either way it goes. One minute, media and others are talking about how good it would be to have frontline starting pitcher here, the next minute it’s ohhhh no..don’t give up this or that and who is to say that pitcher will carry the team to the playoffs..Nobody knows what the @#%@ they want..including management. I say leave the team as is and hope for the best.
July 28th, 20124:40 pm
Josh, someone reported that Davis was someone the Braves were looking into.
July 28th, 20124:41 pm
I grow weary hearing how “great” a GM Scheurholz was. My friends in St Louis are still laughing about the Adam Wainwright and others for JD Drew trade. Then the Tex trade!!!
July 28th, 20124:42 pm
Glavine was a 92 mph FB – curveball pitcher when he came up. Then he learned the change and could spot it. Had he not learned the change he would have been a shadow of himself. Not many can spot that pitch like he could and as much as I like(d) Glavine he lived 4 inches off the outside corner and the umps called it!
Glavine had mixed results during his first several years in the majors, compiling a 33–43 record from 1987 to 1990, including a 17-loss performance in 1988.
Braves should have traded him pre-1987 for 1/2 a season of a Rick Rhoden.
Dumb me is going to ask a stupid question. If Mr Teheran and Mr Bethancourt are too good to be traded, why aren’t they in majors?
Washington Nationals are saying please Braves do not make any trades to improve your starter rotation and try to over take us in the division lead. The Nationals like where they are at as for the Braves they will mess up again in September like last year and not make the playoffs. That is the thinking in the Braves front office, we will not trade anyone to improve our team this year.
July 28th, 20124:43 pm
I know folks are a bit down on Hanson.
However, after his last start, he indicated that he had a mechanical flaw and he knew what it was and was correcting it.
His velocity on his fb is a little bit up from the start of the season.
His curve ball is pretty nasty.
Next start will be interesting to watch. Will he continue to make progress? Will he flush?
July 28th, 20124:44 pm
APPLAUDING FRANK WREN
I do applaud Frank for showing restraint on the Greinke trade situation. Restraint was warranted.
But I do question his judgment on the potential Delgado for Dempster trade. Delgado has the stuff to be a long term fixture in the Braves rotation.
July 28th, 20124:45 pm
Because Amber Girl There Our Golden Prospects.. I Agree With you.
July 28th, 20124:46 pm
Who is his next start against?
July 28th, 20124:47 pm
If Mr Teheran and Mr Bethancourt are too good to be traded, why aren’t they in majors?
Both of these guys are very young. Bethancourt is blocked by Mac at the moment and has some serious work to do on the offensive part of his game. Teheran is in AAA still learning how to pitch. These things don’t happen overnight.
The Braves must have players coming up through the minors. The last few years have proven that they simply are not going to spend the money required to stay competitive otherwise.
July 28th, 20124:48 pm
“Amber Girl, July 28th, 2012, 4:42 pm … “If Mr Teheran and Mr Bethancourt are too good to be traded, why aren’t they in majors?”
They’re young and developing. Teheran has been spotty at the m.l. level in 2011 and one start in 2012.
Bethancourt needs to develop as a hitter, and he is blocked by Brian McCann.
July 28th, 20124:50 pm
Mark … next series … Houston?
Gil in Mechanicsville
The old adage still rings true, to get quality, you have to give up quality… Only questions now are how much do you give up and for how long? The Braves will make a deal or not, sometimes other teams and players just won’t fit in with your needs and demands.
I would rather go with them that brung us to the dance then give away another mother load of talent for a short term rental.
Golden prospect don’t always pant out just like trades don’t.
Delgado could be good. Last start he was 95 for first 5 innings.
I think they did a great job of expressing the two opposing viewpoints.
July 28th, 20124:51 pm
If I was a gambler, I would definitely bet a lot of money on Medlen being that missing starter in the end. Wren is picky and I really do think Dempster or Greinke were his guys. I highly doubt anybody else left out there to get it either what he wants, and/or the price in prospects is through the roof. If he doesn’t go back to the Cubs for Dempster, I believe little Meds has that spot in the rotation for the rest of the year.
This isn’s shocking at all. I’ve watched this man operate for a few years now with the budget he’s been given and how he views those young kids. A bench bat and probably a RP, just like in the summer of ‘10. Believe it.
JJ needs to rest his knee in Gwinnett and not in our bullpen during a pennant drive.
@Mr Bama Brave I just don’t understand why they won’t trade someone to make present team better. I don’t know much but just curious why they wouldn’t do that. I know you got more knowledge than I do. Maybe you can explain it.
July 28th, 20124:52 pm
Again, I am more disppointed in what we got for Tex than I am for what we gave up.
Then I’ll vote he’ll make progress because Houston is a AA / AAA team. If it were the Cardinals, Phillies, Nats I’d vote FLUSH
July 28th, 20124:53 pm
“We’ve got to fire Wren and get new owners.”
Boy, that’s a Braves fan that you just have to hope is not in charge of anything important . . .
First of all, it’s Liberty CHEAPIA, not Liberty Media.
Second, ONLY the fans talk about the “ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM” …. that is ENJOY Michael Bourn’s LAST 3 months as an Atlanta Brave.
Bourn is a Scott Boras client. Liberty CHEAPIA and Frank Wren DO NOT play well together with Scott Boras. Wren has NO intention of extending or resigning Bourn anyway… ANOTHER player we LOSE to Free Agency.
To make matters worse, with NO ONE ready to play CF in the Brave’s Farm System, Wren will stay the course to his FAVORITE word “AFFORDABLE” and our CF starter in 2013 will be one of the following:
* Signing Mike Cameron from the SCRAP HEAP
* Starting Fredi’s nephew Matt Diaz in CF (”he rakes lefthanders you know”)
* Trading for high-average, power-hitting Ivan DeJesus
IF Wren is SO FOCUSED on the future, WHY will be WORSE talent-wise in 2013????!!!!!! The ANSWER is Liberty CHEAPIA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 28th, 20124:54 pm
Amber Girl: Do you have a friend named Samantha? And do you know Murph?
Need deals for Bourne and McCann. Medlin a starter. Only way Greinke deal would of got done if Greinke had signed a long term deal.
Golden prospect don’t always pant out
Typo aside, this is why you want to have as many as possible. If you can get a proven guy who think will also stick around for another couple of seasons, then be all means give up some talent. However, a Greinke kind of trade makes sense for the Angels, it doesn’t for the Braves.
I Dont Understand Either Amber Girl.
July 28th, 20124:55 pm
One thing is for sure and that is the Atlanta Braves are NOT fan pleasers. They aren’t bending over backwards to please a group of unhappy fans. Heck, if Wren was a people pleaser he would already have a top starter in that rotation for Chipper who’s been hinting for over a month now about getting a top starter. And you really think he cares what a pis* ant fan thinks?
Chase Headley + Gregerson for Teheran. If it take a little more but nobody significant then do it. We need another bat and Headley also serves as a long term solution at 3B.
Gregerson fills Medlen’s spot in the pen. Where do you play Headley? That’s a great problem to have. Chipper plays 2-3 days a week, and Headley can play left too. Prado sub in for Uggla. Many of you will bash the positional issue, but you’re wrong. We could really use his bat and another reliable pen arm
In other words everyone is saying they are too young to be in majors. OK i agree you guys no more than I do. If that is so, why do other teams want them. Maybe that is why my mother won’t let me on my own.
July 28th, 20124:56 pm
I wouldn’t call $90 million a year “cheap”
July 28th, 20124:59 pm
However, a Greinke kind of trade makes sense for the Angels, it doesn’t for the Braves.
What??? Giving up 3 of your top prospects for a player who isn’t yet extended makes sense for the Angels and not us? Why??? The Angels are already “overbudget” for the next year or 2….
Hey we made a trade!!!!
Pirates acquired 1B-OF Christian Marrero from the Braves for INF Brian Friday.
Marrero has posted an underwhelming .248/.352/.392 batting line in 79 games this season in the minor leagues. The 25-year-old can no longer be considered a prospect.
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