Braves rotation has been overall disappointment
Since the Giants are in town, and since soft-tossing Barry Zito and two relievers threw a five-hit shutout against the Braves in last night’s series opener while Jair Jurrjens gave up eight runs in 3-1/3 innings, this seems like a good time to compare and contrast the two starting rotations of these postseason contenders.
Giants starters, even with former two-time Cy Young Award winner Tim Lincecum having an unbelievably bad season (3-10 with a 5.93 ERA), still rank third in NL with a collective 3.50 ERA.
Meanwhile, Braves starters rank 13th in the league a 4.27 ERA, ahead of only the Diamondbacks, who play in a hitter-friendly home ballpark; the Astros, who are dreadful and play in a hitter-friendly home ballpark; and the Rockies, who are terrible and play in a radically hitter-friendly home ballpark.
Turner Field has always been considered a neutral or slightly pitcher-friendly park, with its 390-foot power alleys that yield no cheap home runs and turn plenty of would-be homers in most other ballparks into merely loud outs.
And now the Braves, who once built an unprecedented run of 14 consecutive division titles largely on the backs of the majors’ best and most durable starters, have only three starters with ERAs under 4.00, and one of those (Ben Sheets) doesn’t really count because he’s made only one start.
That leaves two — Tim Hudson (3.80 ERA), who started the season on the DL recovering from back surgery and currently pitches with bone spurs in his ankle, and Brandon Beachy, who had a majors-leading 2.00 ERA before a season-ending torn ulnar collateral ligament in his elbow required Tommy John surgery and will probably sideline him until midseason 2013.
Here are the remaining ERAs of the pitchers who’ve made multiple starts for the Braves this season: Tommy Hanson (4.02), Randall Delgado (4.52), Mike Minor (5.97) and Jurrjens (6.20). Top prospect Julio Teheran has a 4.96 ERA in 17 minor-league starts and an 8.31 ERA in his lone big-league start this season.
For the Giants, check out the ERAs of the pitchers who’ve made multiple starts: Ryan Vogelsong (2.36), Matt Cain (2.56), Madison Bumgarner (3.15), Zito (3.75), Lincecum (5.93).
Beachy led majors with 2.00 ERA before season-ending elbow surgery.
Yes, the Giants have four starters with ERAs below the active Braves starter with the best ERA (Hudson’s 3.80).
And remember, pitching – starting and relieving — was again supposed to be a pillar of this Braves team. Team officials said it all winter and spring, and manager Fredi Gonzalez continued to say it during the first half of the season.
The bullpen hasn’t lived up to expectations, save for the brilliance of Craig Kimbrel. And the starting rotation has fallen far short of expectations, with the exception of Beachy before his injury.
Hence the Braves’ real need to add not just one starter (Sheets, whom they shrewdly signed off the scrap heap), but two. They continue to scour trade possibilities and could land Ryan Dempster this week if the Dodgers or another team doesn’t. Dempster has reportedly named the Dodgers and Braves (in that order) as his two preferred destinations, but also will consider other teams if the Cubs approach him with a trade proposal (he has full trade-veto rights as a 10-and-5 player).
Dempster will be a free agent after the season and has said he’d be open to returning to the Cubs as a free agent. But I would guess that the Braves would try to re-sign him if they trade for him, particularly if they give up good prospects (as they will almost certainly have to do) in such a deal. The Cubs are likely to pay a good chunk of what he’s owed this year from his $14 million salary, but the portion they’ll pay will depend on the level of prospects they get in return.
The Cubs have good leverage — Dempster’s 1.86 ERA leads major league starters, his .204 opponents’ average and .302 opponents’ slugging percentage rank second in the NL, and he 35-year-old right-hander hasn’t allowed a run in 33 innings over his past five starts. He’s 5-0 with a .171 opponents’ average in that span, with 21 strikeouts and six walks.
While the Braves would presumably try to re-sign Dempster, and both general manager Frank Wren and manager Fredi Gonzalez have known him a long time since their days together in the Marlins organization where Dempster began his career, signing him long-term probably wouldn’t be as crucial to a trade as it might be if the Braves dealt for Zack Greinke, a bonafide top-of-the-rotation starter who is expected to command a huge contract – perhaps $20 million or more in a six- or seven-year deal – this winter as a free agent, and who would presumably cost the Braves or another team more in the way of talented young talent in return than Dempster would.
The primary purpose of getting Dempster would be to bolster the rotation for the playoff race and the postseason. He’s a steady veteran with a great clubhouse reputation and a little bit of postseason experience, and he’s never been on a better run than he is right now. Adding him to the clubhouse in the midst of a playoff race would be seamless, by all accounts of those who’ve known Dempster.
Adding Zack Greinke would be done for the purpose of strengthening the rotation not just for the present but for the long term. The Braves would likely have to have some assurance they could re-sign him to a long contract before they’d send multiple young players or prospects to the Brewers for Greinke, who is currently in a peculiar 10-day rest period to “recharge his batteries.”
His struggles with social anxiety disorder have been well-chronicled, and there are plenty of big-market teams that worry whether the Greinke’s outstanding pitch repertoire and undeniable talent would work well on a bigger stage than those he’s had in Kansas City and Milwaukee.
The 28-year-old Greinke never pitched in the postseason until last fall, when he posted a 6.48 ERA and 1.620 WHIP in three starts, with 23 hits and 15 runs (12 earned) allowed in 16-2/3 innings, along with four walks and 13 strikeouts.
While his WAR rating has been specatacular throughout his career, the 2009 Cy Young Award winner with Kansas City – he had a season for the ages in ‘09, with a 2.16 ERA, 1.073 WHIP and 242 strikeouts in 229-1/3 innings – has had only one season in nine with an ERA below 3.47, two seasons in nine with a WHIP below 1.200, and has allowed a hit per inning for his career (1,399 hits, 1,395-2/3 innings).
Dempster is 5-0 with a 0.00 ERA in his past five starts.
Again, his talent is tremendous, and he’s as dominant as any pitcher in the game when he’s on. But compare his overall body of stats – not just WAR, but all the other stats, many of which teams still use to determine what they’ll pay — to those of the most accomplished pitchers who are or are about to be at the top of the pay scale, like CC Sabathia and Cain and Cole Hamels and Justin Verlander. They fall a bit short, not to mention the questions that linger – fair or not — about how he might handle the bigger stage of the postseason.
Greinke would make the Braves’ rotation a lot better, no doubt. But can they fit a $20 mill or thereabouts salary into a $90-95 million payroll in coming years? And if you’re going to pay a pitcher $20 million a year, is that the one you want it to be?
We’ll see.
By the way, since the Braves would be making such a move first of all to help the team right now, here are some stats on available pitchers the Braves are known to have scouted and/or are believed to have interest in. I gave you Dempster’s stats from his last five starts, which goes back to the beginning of June and includes two starts since he came off the DL (he had a strained lat muscle).
Here are the numbers since June 1 for the others:
– Greinke is 3-1 with a 3.71 ERA in nine starts, with a .240 opponents’ average, 48 strikeouts and 12 walks in 51 innings, and 4.76 support runs per nine innings pitched.
– Matt Garza is 3-4 with a 3.80 ERA in eight starts, with a .249 opponents’ average, 44 strikeouts and 11 walks in 47-1/3 innings, and 4.94 support runs per nine innings.
– Francisco Liriano is 3-3 with a 2.83 ERA in nine starts (I went back to May 30 with him, since that’s when he returned to the rotation from bullpen), with a .170 opponents’ average, 67 strikeouts and 25 walks in 57-1/3 innings, and 3.3 support runs per nine innings.
And since I’ve been asked about Astros lefty Wandy Rodriguez, I’ll put his stats here since June 1 as well, even though I don’t think the Braves would have much if any interest, judging from comments I’ve heard about him in the past by Atlanta players and others.
– Rodriguez is 3-3 with a 5.08 ERA in eight starts, with a .276 opponents’ average, 29 strikeouts and 12 walks in 48-1/3 innings, with 5.77 support runs per nine innings.
• Tonight’s matchup: It’s a difficult one for the Braves, with Minor facing Vogelsong, who’s been remarkably consistent this season and enters with a string of 13 consecutive quality starts since May 1.
In that period, Vogelsong is 7-3 with 1.97 ERA and .219 OA, with 57 strikeouts and 28 walks in 91-1/3 innings and only 3.45 support runs per nine innings pitched. He went seven or more innings in 12 of those 13 starts, including exactly seven innings in 10 of the 13 and each of the past five starts. The Giants scored one or no runs while he was in the game in each of his three losses in that stretch.
Ryan Vogelsong brings string of 13 consecutive quality starts into Tuesday's matchup with Braves' Mike Minor.
Vogelsong is 4-2 with a stingy 1.43 ERA and .191 opp avg in nine home starts, compared to 3-2 with a 3.59 ERA and .260 opp avg in seven road starts. His .328 slugging percentage allowed is fourth-lowest among NL starters, while Minor’s .486 is second-highest.
Minor is 3-2 with a 4.24 ERA in past six starts, with an impressive .218 opponents’ average in that span. Problem’s been that he issued 19 walks (with 27 strikeouts) in 34 innings in that period, and allowed six homers among 27 hits.
He’s 2-0 with a 4.76 ERA in his past two starts, and the Braves scored seven and six runs while he was in those home wins against the Nationals and June 30 and Cubs on July 5. He’ll be pitching on more than double the usual four days’ rest between starts.
Minor won his only start against Giants when he pitched six scoreless innings of four-hit ball with one walks and nine strikeouts on Aug. 18, 2011 in Atlanta.
• Etc.
The Giants are 4-0 with 0.69 ERA in their past four games (three vs. Astros) and have allowed one or no earned runs in each. They scored 20 runs despite just one homer in that four-game span….
The Braves are 9-12 with 4.14 ERA in past 21 home games, including 3-1 with a 5.50 ERA in the past four….
Jurrjens is 4-6 with a 6.05 ERA and .316 opponents’ average in 16 starts since the 2011 All-Star break, after going 12-3 with a 1.87 ERA and .229 OA in 16 starts during 2011 before the break. He has just 44 strikeouts and 37 walks in 86-1/3 innings since the 2011 All-Star break, after totaling 65 strikeouts and 25 walks in 110-2/3 innings in 2011 before the break.
If you missed it, here were Jurrjens’ quotes and those of some others Braves after Tuesday’s ragged 9-0 loss….
San Francisco’s Melky Cabrera in his past 63 games: .377 (97-for-277) with 26 extra-base hits (six triples, seven homers), 38 RBIs, .407 OBP, .556 slugging (.963 OPS)….
Dan Uggla is 10-for-90 (.111) in his past 27 games with two doubles, one homer, five RBIs, 35 strikeouts, .273 OPB and .167 slugging (.440 OPS). In his past 18 home games (since June 11), Uggla is 5-for-57 (.088) with no homers, two RBIs, 26 strikeouts and .123 slugging….
Freddie Freeman is 27-for-75 (.360) with seven doubles, four homers, 17 RBIs, .443 OBP and .613 slugging (1.056 OPS) in his past 21 games.
• Let’s close with the title cut from the great recently released album by The Walkmen, which you can hear by clicking here.
“HEAVEN” by The Walkmen
our children will always hear
romantic tales of distant years
our gilded age may come and go
our crooked dreams will always glow
stick with me, oh you’re my best friend
all of my life, you’ve always been
remember remember
all we fight for
remember remember
all we fight for
don’t leave me, oh you’re my best friend
all of my life, you’ve always been
don’t leave me now, you’re my best friend
all of my life, you’ve always been
remember remember
all we fight for
remember remember
all we fight for
oohh oh oh ooooh oh…
– David O’Brien, Braves/MIB blog
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2,322 comments Add your comment
unbelievable
July 18th, 2012
3:01 pm
I see what you did there.
unbelievable
July 18th, 2012
3:01 pm
Last blog -
If he wants to give up a lot of hits and walk guys, that is fine as long as he doesn’t give up runs.
That formula cant sustain good results. His velocity has dropped, he has his career low in k/9, and career high in BB/9.
njbraves
July 18th, 2012
3:02 pm
Mike Minor….great.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:03 pm
Thanks for the work DOB.
GO BRAVES!!
semiballcoach
July 18th, 2012
3:04 pm
dead on again DOB
is it time re-evaluate mcdowell?
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:04 pm
It’s early, but…batting average given up on ground balls.
In April/May – .274 (worst in the league)
With Simmons at SS – .192 (best in the league)
After Simmons injury – .314
Team ERAs for those three periods: 4.24, 3.40, 5.50
Land O' Lakes Brave
July 18th, 2012
3:05 pm
Hopefully, the decision to keep Minor and option Delgado is to showcase Minor for trade. Otherwise, that was the wrong decision.
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:06 pm
Minor had a very bad stretch earlier in the year, but in the last several weeks, he has been better than Delgado.
BravesQueen
July 18th, 2012
3:07 pm
Thanks for the new blog, Chief!! GO BRAVES!!
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:08 pm
DOB, Greinke did pitch three games in the postseason last year with Milwaukee.
Jay Dubu
July 18th, 2012
3:08 pm
Braves’ quotes after the game should have, and could have been summed up as follows:
“We stunk!…in the field, at the plate, on the mound, and in the dugout.” Enough said!
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:10 pm
Didn’t Greinke pitch in the postseason last year for the Brewers?
Karl Hungus
July 18th, 2012
3:10 pm
Land O’ Lakes Brave:
Minor has nothing left to learn in AAA. Delgado needs to improve his secondary pitches.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:12 pm
Ef: “You can use his last 5 MLB starts and that is it”
Again with the incredibly small sample sizes that you like to use.
To be fair, Ef, you did say after his first start that you wanted to see five starts from him before you made any projections about his ability. Are you now saying that, even though he went 4 straight starts with a 2.31 ERA, and low numbers all throughout, his fifth start is the one you are going to give the majority of the weight to and disregard the prior 4 starts since returning? I’d say he has done well since coming back, but had one crapper of a game. A game every member of the team crapped on. Even Prado made some bad plays in that game. It was a terrible game. And 3 of his runs came in from a leaky bullpen…. bringing his ERA while in the game to 3.45 over the five starts.
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:12 pm
But I would guess that the Braves would try to re-sign him if they trade for him, particularly if they give up good prospects (as they will almost certainly have to do) in such a deal.
I’d just focus on the remaining 2 months for Dempster. We’d be adding another aging pitcher to the staff as I believe Dempster is 36 years old. Not sure how many multi-year dollars I want to invest in him. I think I’d be comfortable with acquiring Ryan for two months and letting him walk.
Chris from the Rock
July 18th, 2012
3:12 pm
It’s time to remind Ryan Vogelsong that he’s Ryan Vogelsong. Colby Lewis was good for the first year or so he came back from Japan too, and now he serves up 3-run homers like IHOP serves pancakes.
Fly on the Wall
July 18th, 2012
3:13 pm
Dragon slaying time again….let’s go Bravos!
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:14 pm
…. bringing his ERA while in the game to 3.45 over the five starts.
Aw, come one for crying out loud!! When does a pitcher give up 8 ER mostly because of the BALL IN PLAY(can’t strike anyone out) being given up does he get defended for it. Mother of god…..
semiballcoach
July 18th, 2012
3:14 pm
ther really isn’t anything wrong with any of the young guys, except the braves can’t afford their OJT while trying to make the playoffs
despite wionning 10 games, hanson is the most disappointing one to me, he should be the stud and he pitches so tentatively at times…..he needs to a change of mindset….he was talking to sheets in the dugout on sunday, maybe sheets will help
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:15 pm
I think I’d be comfortable with acquiring Ryan for two months and letting him walk.
Yep. If we still had a Charlie Morton in the system, he’d be a perfect trade chip for a 2 month, non-draft-pick-eligible, trade.
Murph
July 18th, 2012
3:15 pm
Any new rumors today or just the same ol same ol?
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:16 pm
Aw, come one for crying out loud!!
So then you are saying you give 100% of the evaluation then to 1 start, and zero percent to the previous 4, despite blasting MFin for giving 100% to the first start? Ef, you know it, everyone knows it, that’s a double standard.
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:17 pm
Can you do me a favor and break down Polished ERA when he was in the game, TenneseePaul?
Jesus christo. He’s been bad, folks. I think I can do without guys that throw 86mph in our rotation. Golly. I’m remembering visions of Russ Ortiz and Paul Byrd.
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:17 pm
5.2 IP, 7 H, 2 ER, 2 BB, 0 K
5.2 IP, 6 H, 2 ER, 3 BB, 0 K
One of these is a good start, and one of them is bad. Which one is which?
Braves Fan in Maine
July 18th, 2012
3:19 pm
Dump mcdowell at the end of the year not matter what!!!!
PMC
July 18th, 2012
3:19 pm
I’m not disapointed in them yet. I do think they had too much faith in what they had in the offseason especially at the back of the rotation, but it’s not an incredibly expensive rotation either.
They just seem to put way too much on Minor because he’s the only lefty. Delgado was pretty good he’s only going down because he’s young and right handed.
It was still the right move paying Lowe’s salary and getting them up.
Hanson has been overvalued forever, massively. He’s a good pitcher, not an Ace. Hudson is just getting older but he’s still solid. JJ is a decent middle of the rotation starter that is still trying to find it again.
I’m not disappointed yet because I don’t think I expected as much from them as the Braves did. I think the Braves overvalued what they had last fall.
Brave New World
July 18th, 2012
3:19 pm
I’m surprised Melky remembered the Tomahawk Chop enough to diss some fans. I thought he slept through his season with the Braves (when he wasn’t eating or playing mediocre baseball).
ChattTownBrian
July 18th, 2012
3:19 pm
I’m surprised no pitcher has been traded yet. Kind of gambling if you ask me. Teams know what they’re trading for regardless of a few more starts to boost their value. You risk and injury or a few horrile starts as these pitchers might be feeling some extra pressure knowing they’re on the block.
IDK, maye it’s just no offer has been that great yet.
O.J.
July 18th, 2012
3:23 pm
Brian from SC, that stat you posted about Simmons? Is that balls hit right at him? Or just fielding in general?
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:23 pm
He’s been bad, folks.
Over the course of the year, yes. Since returning from the minors, not as much. You stated you wanted 5 starts from him. He gives you 4 good starts and 1 crapper. Hesitant you were to give him any credit for the good start, yet the crapper… the crapper is the end all be all? In turn it is one game. What does one say if he comes back and produces another 7IP, 1ER game in his next start? Of the 6 starts since returning, is that one crapper the aberration or are the other 5 the oddities?
PMC
July 18th, 2012
3:23 pm
The Braves have a lot of solid pitchers throughout the organization starters and releivers, there’s just not a lot of greatness there other than Kimbrel.
Juan
July 18th, 2012
3:23 pm
IMO….Braves need to sign long term Prado/Bourn that its….Going the rest of the season with what we have… and them the off season fixed what ever we need that will be pitching. Do not trade any prospect…Julio & Randall is ours future.
Juan
July 18th, 2012
3:23 pm
IMO….Braves need to sign long term Prado/Bourn that its….Going the rest of the season with what we have… and them the off season fixed what ever we need that will be pitching. Do not trade any prospect…Julio & Randall is ours future.
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:23 pm
So then you are saying you give 100% of the evaluation then to 1 start, and zero percent to the previous 4, despite blasting MFin for giving 100% to the first start?
Youre something else, dude. You defend your guys more than I can say I defend Heyward that’s for sure. Here is what I posted this morning. This is what I’m looking at from Jair Jurrjens. NOT ONE START.
http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457453
102.1 IP, 130 hits allowed, 64 ER, 13 HR’s allowed, 32 BB’s and 49 K’s in 19 starts of professional baseball action across two levels of play – Triple-A and MLB.
But please, TenneseePaul, defend away. Please, pick a comment or two from me without checking what MFin and I have been arguing about all day. Sorry if I didn’t justify my statements correctly.
Care to post some Freddie Freeman slash lines?
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:24 pm
Golly. I’m remembering visions of Russ Ortiz and Paul Byrd.
And please Ef, if anything Jurrjen’s season is more like Mark “The Tee” Redman. “He’s an All-Star!“
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:24 pm
That’s all ground balls. The split in the middle are games from June through the All-Star break, which is when Simmons was starting.
Jay Dubu
July 18th, 2012
3:24 pm
I expect to see the Mike Minor from Spring Training tonight. He hasn’t pitched in a game since July 5th, Delgado has been chosen of the two, to be sent down, so he should be revitalized.
The Braves will need him to match Vogelsong, especially if Vogelsong brings his A-game to the mound tonight.
Whatever happened to the Melky that used to play in the outfield for the Braves…that sure was not him playing LF for the Giants last night. That guy in LF played a great all-round game, and made things happen.
Venice Jim
July 18th, 2012
3:25 pm
Atlanta Braves @Braves
Tonight’s lineup vs. SF (7:10, SPSO/680AM/BRN): Bourn 8 Prado 7 Heyward 9 Freeman 3 McCann 2 Uggla 4 Francisco 5 Janish 6 Minor 1
O.J.
July 18th, 2012
3:25 pm
But that stat is meaningless then, because it doesnt break down balls actually hit to SS.
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:26 pm
Tennessee Paul, of Jurrjens 5 starts since coming back from AAA, one has been very good (Boston), one was pretty good (Philly), two were mediocre to bad (Chicago, Arizona) and one was a disaster (San Fran).
The issue is that he doesn’t seem to have fixed the problems that caused him to get sent down, which is lack of stuff and lack of command.
ncscoots
July 18th, 2012
3:26 pm
Everything seemed to be off last night, except for a few base knocks by Fat Freddie and Prado….
Well, that’s true. Just one of those games. Jurrjens wasn’t good, but those first couple of innings, it looked like a team-wide conspiracy to convince Frank to get another pitcher.
Prado, Bourn, Chipper, Freeman, plus a tight strike zone…just not a whole lot of help for a pitcher who probably doesn’t have enough fingers to plug all those holes in the dike, to begin with.
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:26 pm
But that stat is meaningless then, because it doesnt break down balls actually hit to SS.
Really? OK…
I disagree.
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:26 pm
I gave him credit for good starts, but how can you not be hesitant given the way he goes about it? I’m sorry – it’s a little discouraging to see the 86 mph heat get smacked around last night.
Steve from OH
July 18th, 2012
3:27 pm
Mark “The Tee” Redman. “He’s an All-Star!“
This made me laugh. Nicely done.
unbelievable
July 18th, 2012
3:27 pm
Why are we limiting JJ’s numbers to 5 starts? He sucked in Atl to start the season, he sucked at Gwinnett, and he got back in the rotation due to an injury and crappy pitching from everyone else. You can choose to look at 4 of his starts, but those are more of the aberration and the norm is his poor pitching performances.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:28 pm
But please, TenneseePaul, defend away
Oh I don’t defend that crapper last night. He stunk. Prado stunk. Everyone stunk…. cept Freeman, he was solid. But you did ask for 5 starts from him. That’s all I’m asking about. You shunned any positive until you got the negative and have let that one game define his “rehabilitation.” That, to me, is a double standard.
As for Jurrjens and the Braves, he could very well stink the rest of the year. I won’t be sad to see him go. I’ll be sad the team can’t get anything for him, but then, if he was worth something, the team probably wouldn’t let him go. But, he could turn it around next start and put up something nice. I’m hoping he can. Mainly because I don’t want to see Polished serving up the long ball down the stretch.
MikeY
July 18th, 2012
3:28 pm
Medlen should be in the rotation. The trip to AAA to strtch him out, followed by his return to the bullpen, was a tactical fubar.
Trade for a reliver to repace Medlen. I like Joe Beimel or Brandon Lyon, either would come for a minimal prospect. Then move Medlen to the rotation.
And then if we can get Dempster or Greinke or another top starter for a reasonable deal, do it!
Ward
July 18th, 2012
3:29 pm
Hello everyone! Good see the Braves trying to lock up Prado, and I would go with Dempster, or Liriano.
DAP
July 18th, 2012
3:29 pm
efrim Aw, come one for crying out loud!! When does a pitcher give up 8 ER mostly because of the BALL IN PLAY(can’t strike anyone out) being given up does he get defended for it.
if the pendulum is swinging too far in support of jurrjens, maybe its because it swung too far against him first.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:29 pm
Last 9 Starts of the Starting 9
_________AVG__OBP__SLG___OPS_wOBA_L9S9+
Bourn__ .333 .429 .472 0.901 .400 __123
Prado__ .289 .300 .342 0.642 .283 ___59
Heyward .265 .359 .353 0.712 .327 ___78
Freeman .419 .514 .742 1.255 .528 __206
McCann_ .333 .361 .697 1.058 .432 __154
Uggla__ .103 .278 .207 0.485 .245 ___23
Francis .273 .314 .515 0.829 .331 __101
Janish_ .167 .286 .333 0.619 .280 ___53
Minor__ .067 .125 .067 0.192 .141 __-50
Chris Vivlamore
July 18th, 2012
3:29 pm
Braves lineup: Bourn 8, Prado 7, Heyward 9, Freeman 3, McCann 2, Uggla 4, Francisco 5, Janish 6, Minor 1
ncscoots
July 18th, 2012
3:30 pm
Mainly because I don’t want to see Polished serving up the long ball down the stretch.
That settles it. I’m gonna start looking for ways to defend Minor against TennPaul’s hate.
Arkansas Transplant
July 18th, 2012
3:31 pm
Let’s just go and get both Dempster and Greinke.. sign Greinke to a long term contract and let Dempser walk.
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:31 pm
of Jurrjens 5 starts since coming back from AAA, one has been very good (Boston), one was pretty good (Philly), two were mediocre to bad (Chicago, Arizona) and one was a disaster (San Fran).
Sorta the way I felt, but I would of taken what he gave us prior to last night over Polished.
MFin04
July 18th, 2012
3:32 pm
Brian from SC – One of those has a 5R next to them and one doesn’t. And you said a couple starts, not just one.
Greinke has a career 3.80 ERA in 217 starts. Hasn’t had a single good start in the playoffs. I’m just not going to pay him $20 million for that. Too much for a guy that is unproven in the playoffs, and really has only had one dominant season in 9 years which really looks like an anomaly in comparison to his other seasons.
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:32 pm
Sorta the way I felt, but I would of taken what he gave us prior to last night over Polished.
I would have taken the results, but the actual pitching wasn’t as good as the results indicated. His fortune ran out last night. He has got to pitch better going forward to sustain good results.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:32 pm
The issue is that he doesn’t seem to have fixed the problems that caused him to get sent down, which is lack of stuff and lack of command.
I have no issue with this comment. Last night it certainly didn’t seem that he had fixed anything and the starts have waffled, but the team has been in it so I didn’t care.
Besides, my “defense” of Jurrjens is also based on the fact that he was once good, and not long ago. And none of it was arm/shoulder issues, so I believe there is more chance of him rebounding, given time. It’s not like I’m calling Jorge Sosa a Cy Young, long-term extension candidate.
unbelievable
July 18th, 2012
3:32 pm
Yeah Id really like to see another starter added, Medlen moved to the rotation, another reliever and Moylan to the pen.
Hudson, Dempster, Hanson, Sheets, Medlen sure looks a lot better.
O.J.
July 18th, 2012
3:32 pm
In all but 1 of Mike Minor’s wins, the Braves have scored more than 7 runs in the game. Seems he needs a big lead to be comfortable.
Ward
July 18th, 2012
3:32 pm
Don’t want to start some thing, but I read an article that the Braves might not sign Bourn, and could possibly trade him? He could go to highest bidder next year. Hope that’s more of an opinion than what he stated from yesterday.
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:33 pm
The Braves may not re-sign Bourn, but they will not trade him. The only scenario that would have caused that would have been the Braves going in the tank already.
Rick
July 18th, 2012
3:33 pm
Ward, no way they trade Bourn unless they are out of contention.
MFin04
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
Funny DOB’s last blog title was about the improved rotation, this one is about the rotation being a disappointment. We could call him out for being an idiot, but the truth is, is that he is DEAD on. This team has more ups and downs. They look great, they look terrible. They are hot, then they are cold. Oh Lord, this is turning into a Katy Perry song…
Efrim
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
if the pendulum is swinging too far in support of jurrjens, maybe its because it swung too far against him first.
http://www.milb.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=457453
102.1 IP, 130 hits allowed, 64 ER, 13 HR’s allowed, 32 BB’s and 49 K’s in 19 starts of professional baseball action across two levels of play – Triple-A and MLB.
Those are facts.
Just like when TenneseePaul sits there in late August of last year blasting 21 year old(22 on 8/23) Jason Heyward, those were facts.
I had to get that in…..
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
I’m gonna start looking for ways to defend Minor against TennPaul’s hate
oh man, the filth you are going to have to sift through to do that scoots. I do not envy you. ( :
ncscoots
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
Then move Medlen to the rotation.
I’m not gonna lie; if Wren’s idea of upgrading the rotation turns out to be Sheets and Medlen, I’m gonna have to re-evaluate Frank’s good standing with yours truly.
ncbravesfan90
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
1. Michael Bourn (L) CF
2. Martin Prado (R) LF
3. Jason Heyward (L) RF
4. Freddie Freeman (L) 1B
5. Brian McCann (L) C
6. Dan Uggla (R) 2B
7. Juan Francisco (L) 3B
8. Paul Janish (R) SS
9. Mike Minor (R) P
Brian from SC
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
I do think it’s possible for Jurrjens to regain form. I just am not sure the Braves are in a position to be able to wait for it to happen. There is a division title to be won.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:34 pm
Those are facts.
“Pregnant man gives birth, that’s a fact.”
Ward
July 18th, 2012
3:36 pm
That’s what I was hoping the article meant……
MFin04
July 18th, 2012
3:37 pm
“The 28-year-old Greinke has never pitched in the postseason”
Baseball-reference must be wrong then….
Unless you don’t count his 3 bad starts in the post-season…of course it is such a small sample size we should throw it…especially since he is an Ace with a dominant ERA in the regular season.
optimist
July 18th, 2012
3:37 pm
I wonder if someday quoting pitchers’ slash lines similar to hitters will become more prevalent along with ERA and WHIP. It would seem instructive to see the OPS against pitchers in addition to average against.
BlueMoon
July 18th, 2012
3:37 pm
What I’m trying to figure out is why Brave’s starters seem to be having velocity issues, particularly Hanson. When he first came up he was throwing 94-96 and in his last start was around 88-90 and has been closer to that all year than to the numbers he was at when he first came up. Jurrjens is another that has lost velocity.
Something is wrong in the strength/conditioning department.
ncscoots
July 18th, 2012
3:37 pm
This team has more ups and downs. They look great, they look terrible. They are hot, then they are cold.
Excuse me, but 7-1 is “up and down”? One loss makes them “cold”?
DAP
July 18th, 2012
3:38 pm
brave new world I’m surprised Melky remembered the Tomahawk Chop enough to diss some fans
did melky taunt fans with the chop? i didnt get to watch the whole game so i may have missed it. if he did, i hope mionr pegs him tonight.
Fred
July 18th, 2012
3:39 pm
FIRE ROGER MCDOWELL!!!!!! Dude hasnt done ANYTHING with our pitching staff the whole time he has been here. What good we have done is just off of pure talent. Everybody but Kimbrel has declined since they have first been called up. Look at Lowe, leaves Atlanta and finally gets back to form.
Ward
July 18th, 2012
3:39 pm
I just can’t see the Braves letting Bourn go my self, so leave it at that. Maybe we could know some thing tomorrow on whre dempster is going? Sure like to have him for 3 years.
Bat Masterson
July 18th, 2012
3:40 pm
Did anyone else notice how bad the ball was snaking on the outfield grass last night. There was one play in center where I thought the fielder should just lay out across the balls path for safeties sake.
Arkansas Transplant
July 18th, 2012
3:40 pm
Trade Delgado in a package to the Brewers for Greinke.
Trade Minor in a package to the Cubs for Dempster and money.
Trade Uggla and Terd to the Tigers for Castenallos and Young.
Move Prado back to 2nd and Put Young in LF.
Rotation: Greinke, Hudson, Dempster, Hanson and Sheets
Lineup: Bourn, Prado, Heyward, Chipper, McCann, Freeman, Young and Simmons
tony austin
July 18th, 2012
3:40 pm
I knew Chipper fouled off too many pitches yesterday to make today’s start
… I sure am going to miss not seeing #10 out there next year.
TennesseePaul
July 18th, 2012
3:40 pm
Jurrjens first four starts after his return: .247/.291/.351/.642
Last two starts: .326/.383/.465/.848
Herschel Talker
July 18th, 2012
3:42 pm
“Braves rotation has been overall disappointment”
Thank you, Captain Obvious.
RC
July 18th, 2012
3:42 pm
FIRE ROGER MCDOWELL!!!!!! Dude hasnt done ANYTHING with our pitching staff the whole time he has been here. What good we have done is just off of pure talent. Everybody but Kimbrel has declined since they have first been called up. Look at Lowe, leaves Atlanta and finally gets back to form.
Derek Lowe’s stats this season: 4.43 ERA, 1.56 WHIP. Yep, looks like he’s “back to form”.
Frankie
July 18th, 2012
3:42 pm
Hard to follow why people don’t understand that Medlen’s role is better served in the bullpen. Having a guy pitch two innings is huge, he does that. Guy is better in the pen than as a starter.
MFin04
July 18th, 2012
3:42 pm
“but 7-1 is “up and down”
I really hope you are kidding. Who knows if they lose 6 more in a row. And it turns into 7 in a row, 7 in a row.
But neither of us want that, so I’ll let it go.
But this whole season has been winning streak, than losing streak. Team can’t hit, then they can’t miss. And no I didn’t say they were cold right now, but wouldn’t be shocked if they did go cold all of the sudden, it seems to be the way it goes this season.
I prefer to believe they are turning the corner and going to run away with the division after the Nationals and Mets fade.
Fly on the Wall
July 18th, 2012
3:43 pm
Chipper came out early last night and not in the line up after only one game….what’s up with that?
urban redneck
July 18th, 2012
3:44 pm
yeah, disappointing to say the least. i would take dempster over greinke–too many risks and too expensive.
i’d like to get omar infante back on a completely unrelated note. the marlins gotta have a fire sale.
ncscoots
July 18th, 2012
3:44 pm
Trade Uggla and Terd to the Tigers for Castenallos and Young.
How can you dislike Uggla so much as to want Delmon bleepin’ Young, of all people, to replace him, LOL? That’s some serious depth there, my man.
RC
July 18th, 2012
3:44 pm
AT,
Your first two trades are completely possible, although they would be sacrificing some future flexibility to do so. Trading Uggla to Detroit for Castenallos, however, is fairy tale land. No way the Tigers agree to anything close to that deal.
MFin04
July 18th, 2012
3:44 pm
“did melky taunt fans with the chop? i didnt get to watch the whole game so i may have missed it.”
Umm, do you watch wrestling? Let’s just say it was a two hand “crotch chop”. Not a very friendly salute. Someone posted a video of it last night…
No. 1 Braves Fan
July 18th, 2012
3:46 pm
DOB: You do a great job of providing timely info. about the Braves. However, I think your headline in this one could have be “an terrible or alarming” disapointment. The starting pitching has been nothing close to what Wren and Fredi said it would be.
Jay Dubu
July 18th, 2012
3:46 pm
Braves batting order (6 – 9) looks bad on paper. I hope they do some wonderful things at the plate tonight.
brian
July 18th, 2012
3:46 pm
good question on whether it is time to reevaluate McDowell. Pitchers such as Hanson and Jurrjens have not developed as expected and prized prospects Teheran, Minor, and Delgado seem to have hit a wall. Bullpen is going backwards as well.
tony austin
July 18th, 2012
3:47 pm
I wanted to see Medlen in the rotation also earlier in the season, but watching the games this year has really shown me that it indeed is better suited for him to be in the pen.
ncscoots
July 18th, 2012
3:47 pm
And no I didn’t say they were cold right now, but wouldn’t be shocked if they did go cold all of the sudden
Ah. I see. Just getting a little pre-gloom in there, huh?
JT Grace
July 18th, 2012
3:47 pm
Look at Lowe, leaves Atlanta and finally gets back to form.
Lowe has a 4.43 ERA (4.1 FIP) so I don’t know how that qualifies as “getting back to form”. Also, you are conveniently forgetting that: Venters was a journeyman minor leaguer until he came to Atlanta and blossomed as a reliever; EOF was released by the Mariners but has seen a career revival under Roger; Peter; Moylan was pitching for a team in Australia until he started pitching for the Braves; Javier Vazquez had a career year while in Atlanta but flopped after he left, etc., etc, etc. Roger is a really, really good pitching coach.
LAMJAM
July 18th, 2012
3:47 pm
Hey, Chris from the Rock, let’s not remind Vogelsong who he is until the Giants are out of town, OK? Because who he is is a pitcher who is hands-down better than anyone in the Braves’ rotation. Better pray he has an off night; elsewise, you may as well get out the brooms, because it will be a sweep.
Arkansas Transplant
July 18th, 2012
3:49 pm
ncscoots, that’s cause Young is a free agent at season end. No commitment past this year.
unbelievable
July 18th, 2012
3:49 pm
When he first came up he was throwing 94-96
Not true. His avg velocity peaked at 92.7 and he’s at 89.8 this season. He did touch 95-96 on a handful of pitches, just like he’s touched 92-93 on a few this season. Its still alarming that he’s lost about 3mph, but shoulder injuries and changing your mechanics can do that.
jeffrey d
July 18th, 2012
3:50 pm
Thanks DOB