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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,084 comments Add your comment
Billy Martin
July 10th, 2012
2:45 pm
I always liked how G. Brett wigged out after I got the ump to reverse the home run cause of the “pine tar”!!
I would’ve beaten his butt if he got near me! hehe
Is that better moderator?????
Kevin
July 10th, 2012
2:46 pm
I’m a Braves fan, not a Chipper Jones fan, so this isn’t as biased as it might sound. I watched Schmidt, Brett, and Chipper in their primes. Schmidt had more HR’s, but he was the typical slugger. Brett hit .390, the closest to .400 since 1941, I think. And in their primes, I’d rather have Chipper at the PLATE. He’s one of the smartest hitters I’ve ever seen. He’s not pull happy. He can hit HR’s to any field. STILL. He’ll take a base to the opposite field instead of trying to hit a HR. He’ll hit the ball where it’s pitched. If he’d been trying to hit HR’s all the time like Schmidt, he’d probably have more HR’s than Schmidt. But, if he’d tried to hit .400 instead of trying to DRIVE IN RUNS, he probably would’ve done that, too. Not a Chipper Jones the man fan, but the guy can flat out hit. Still.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
2:50 pm
I’m a big Chipper fan, but no way he’s better than Schmidt, Mathews, or Brett. Jones should be 4th all time.
Billy Martin
July 10th, 2012
2:51 pm
Chipper’s coming back….he’s gotta pay for that divorce somehow!
Plus, what does he have to go home to now? Let him take another trip next year around the Majors, if ya know what I mean.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
2:52 pm
My goodness the ignorance is incredible.
Everybody is STILL leaving out Wade Boggs. And to the person who said he only had a bat he actually had an outstanding glove as well. What makes Boggs bat special is that despite not having much home run power(and he was a doubles machine), hit batting averages in combination with his walk rate made for some incredible on base skills. How many people can say they had 4 seasons with 200 hits and 100 bases on balls?
Brooks Robinson was vastly overrated. Now his defense is the best ever, but his offense was only average and he complied a lot of numbers.
And to the person saying Chipper was robbed of gold gloves by Rolen: Wrong, Wrong, Wrong. Chipper was always an average defensive third baseman overall, with strong and weak points. With his kind of bat that is nothing to be ashamed of. Look how bad great hitters like Manny and Sheffield were at defense, which cost them a ton of value.
Rolen deserves to be a HOFer. His defense was incredible, maybe only third to Robinson and Schimdt. Good offensive player too. Not a top tier HOFer but definitely worthy.
Also, to those using fielding percentage to judge defense….make your way over to Fangraphs and Baseball-Fever.
David O'Brien
July 10th, 2012
2:56 pm
Carl Farvman
July 10th, 2012
12:11 pm
Yeah, DOB put together a good ‘homer’ article and playing aroung with cute statistics.
Yes, we’re all about the “cute statistics.” Stuff like OPS, hits, HRs, RBIs, MVPs — the cute stuff.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
2:57 pm
Boggs would be 7th, and Bob Horner 8th.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
3:00 pm
Again, how the heck are you ranking Boggs that low? Bob Horner, really?
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
3:00 pm
Having seen Mathews, Robinson, Santo, Brett, Schmidt, Boggs, and Chipper play, ALL of the above were better defensively than Chipper.
Did you really see them play? I mean watching them play 1 or 2 games isn’t really enough to make a judgment… especially in a time when you didn’t have the outlets to see highlights from games like we do today.
I’m not saying your wrong, but wouldn’t you agree that with today’s instant sports news (ESPN and MLB Network) that you’ve seen Chipper more than those other guys? And that also means you’ve had more opportunities to see him make errors.
When TWIB was the main source of baseball highlights you really didn’t see anyone play regular unless you went to games. Today we see everything that happens.
ncbravesfan90
July 10th, 2012
3:01 pm
Just some names I think will be available on the shortstop market for the Braves here in the next week or so (IMO, they have to make a trade for a shortstop especially with Simmons out until at least late August) :
Bloomquist
Scutaro
Brendan Ryan
Jamey Carroll
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
3:02 pm
I’m a big Chipper fan, but no way he’s better than Schmidt, Mathews, or Brett. Jones should be 4th all time.
Enlighten us with your reasoning!!
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:03 pm
Crazy – Your already enlightened. I don’t explain….
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
3:03 pm
Boggs would be 7th, and Bob Horner 8th.
Bob Horner?? WTF… Let me guess
9th Terry Pendelton
10th Vinny Castilla
DawgDad
July 10th, 2012
3:05 pm
“Brooks Robinson was a pretty average third baseman who had the good fortune of playing at a high level when the glare of the cameras were on him during the world series. ”
Cough, cough. I was fortuate enough to SEE Robinson play, as far back as the early 60’s. Would you say the same about Derek Jeter as a shortstop? Because that’s a pretty good analogy.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:06 pm
Why wouldn’t Bob be in the top ten? He played the game well, so that’s what I chose. You have yours, and I have mine.
raleighbravefan
July 10th, 2012
3:08 pm
Gil – You’re just plain wrong about Brooks Robinson. I saw him play right much on TV, and he was the best DEFENSIVE 3B, IMO. Not too bad with the bat, either.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:09 pm
Isn’t that why DOB wrote the article, so we can talk about our favorites, and where we rank them?
polskidawg
July 10th, 2012
3:09 pm
My opinion – Chipper is the best ATLANTA Brave position player in its history (1966 – 2012). Really, Dale Murphy is the only guy even close. I love watching Chipper hit, and I’m going to him him terribly.
But….George Brett for my money was a better, all-around third baseman (defense, leadership, clutch-hitting, rbi production, speed, etc). Perhaps without injury Chipper would have pushed Schmidt as best all-time, but based on what is known, Chipper is number 3 on the list.
As for switch-hitting, I’d place Chipper 2nd on my list, just trailing Mantle (who I only saw when I was 2 years-old). Murray, Rose, Berkman and others were/are tremendous players themselves, but Chipper’s knowledge of hitting and application of that knowledge is superior.
AdirondackDave
July 10th, 2012
3:09 pm
Mike Schmidt and George Brett were superb offensive players but if I wanted a single player in a game-winning situation, I’d take Chipper every time. Schmidt fanned too much and though he was a great defensive player, couldn’t touch the vacuum-man Brooks, in the field.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:11 pm
For a back up SS. I would go with Bloomquist, or Scutaro. The others I would pass.
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:15 pm
Schmidt, Brett and Chipper all played many, many years for the same team. That’s why we lock on to them.
Michael Jack Schmidt, then someone else. Some say Chipper, others say Brett.
Jeff R
July 10th, 2012
3:17 pm
Brooks Robinson might be the greatest defensive third baseman of all-time. Might be able to see clips of him picking it at third on YouTube.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:17 pm
You could put them in any order, because they are so good.
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
3:17 pm
Numbers give us a decent idea, but to me it’s hard to compare players from different generations no matter how you do it.
Especially something like Chipper vs. Mathews
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:17 pm
Forget about acquring a SS. Stick the Rev back in there and lets get the hitters on this team to step it up.
Uggla, McCann (coming around nicely), Heyward and Freeman.
If these guys can hit at their expected levels, we’ll be fine for 5-6 weeks.
Over Rated
July 10th, 2012
3:18 pm
Lawrence is way over rated. He could not hold Schmidt’s jock strap.
keeping it real
July 10th, 2012
3:20 pm
Gil: I grew up in Baltimore and saw Brooks play at least 100 games in person. Of course, I saw all the games that were on tv. Perhaps my memory fails me as I am admittedly old, but it seemed to me that he made at least one incredible play every game. I didn’t see Ozzie play in person or nearly as much, but I do believe that he is the best fielder ever with Brooks 2nd. That said, when he returns, I’m expecting Andrelton Simmons to give Ozzie some competition -:).
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:21 pm
Crazy – Agree with your 3:17 post.
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:22 pm
Hey, since we have some Brooks Robinson fans on here, can someone explain to me the short-billed batting helmet he used?
Always wondered about that.
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
3:23 pm
My thirdbase rankings:
1. Schmidt
2. Matthews
3. Boggs
4. Chipper
5. Brett
I did the best I can to account for only time at thirdbase. While Brett and A-Rod probably had just as much if not more overall value as the guys I put ahead of them, they didn’t play as much thirdbase.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:25 pm
Jimmy – My guess was to protect his head. Maybe he got hurt?
Jeff R
July 10th, 2012
3:25 pm
Numbers give us a decent idea, but to me it’s hard to compare players from different generations no matter how you do it.
Especially something like Chipper vs. Mathews
Hard but not necessarily impossible. I think Matthews and Chipper played close enough in time to make reasonable comparisons.
Taking nothing away from Chipper, Matthews, by all accounts, was one of the top defenders during his prime. I’ve never seen Chipper as more than an average defender.
Someone wrote the other day (when nolie and I were going back and forth on this) that the Braves have been privileged to have two of the game’s top third basemen in Chipper and Matthews. That’s dead-on.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
3:26 pm
“Bob Horner played the game well”. Okay, many do.
Lets see, Bob played 1,000 games, and what he did in that time warrants him 7th all time on the third baseman list. Gotcha.
David O'Brien
July 10th, 2012
3:27 pm
A few things from Selig at this morning’s BBWAA (writers) meeting:
– They’re not moving the trade deadline, but may make adjustments of some kind.
– No decision yet on expansion of replays, but they don’t want to do anything to slow the game any further. Joe Torre (he was also there) said “It seems like replays always comes up with whatever play happened last night.” And he added, “I don’t know why we want everything to be perfect. It’s not a perfect game. Life isn’t perfect.”
— The new first-round playoff format of 2-3 is just for one year, because they added the extra wild card too late to adjust schedule without postseason lasting longer. They’ll move to 2-2-1 next year.
Players union chief Michael Weiner (he spoke to us at end of the meeting) said no player lkes the 2-3 format, but that players wanted the extra wild card bad enough to put up with the 2-3 for one year.
— Selig said he was as “proud” of the Mitchell Report now as when it came out, and said the Roger Clemens decision was not relevant to judging the worth of the report, in his view. Said the report made 19-20 recommendations, all of which baseball has adopted and which have helped clean up the sport.
— Details will come soon about interleague schedules for next year. Weiner said the schedule will be much more “fair” in that teams won’t have six games against “natural rivalries,” but rather 3-4. Braves wouldn’t play six games against the Red Sox, for instance, but rather 3 or maybe 4 (two 2-game series or one 3-game series). All teams will play the teams in another division — i.e. NL East vs. AL Central, or whatever — and each team will probably play a team deemed a “natural rival” in another series, as well.
It’ll make for about 19-20 interleague games for each team.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:27 pm
MLB Expert – Who cares what you think. Your meaningless.
Jeff R
July 10th, 2012
3:27 pm
Jimmy, I remember Robinson wearing, but can’t say why.
If I remember correctly, he also wore lampblack a lot under his eyes.
DawgDad
July 10th, 2012
3:27 pm
Bloomquist would be an great pickup at this point, not considering the cost. Nice upgrade over Wilson coming off the bench once Simmons comes back, and the Braves might be able to hang on to both of them for the September run. Keep in mind the Cardinals snatched up Furcal last year; landing a legitimate shortstop is not out of the question, though it is probably more difficult this year.
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:28 pm
Ward – How does the short-billed helmet figure in? He is the only one I’ve ever seen with that style helmet.
Replace Horner with Ron Cey at 7th All-Time.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:32 pm
Jimmy – For got about Ron Cey. I’ll put him at 7th, and then drop Bob Horner down to 15 . That should ease some……
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
3:32 pm
Numbers give us a decent idea, but to me it’s hard to compare players from different generations no matter how you do it.
All things being close to equal, I’ll take the best players from today over the best players of the 1950’s-1980’s, maybe even into the 1990’s. People in general are just stronger, faster, better physically. And I would venture to say athletes know how to do things better, as well.
But I think when we make these types of list, we are looking at worth to the teams for which they played, not necessarily would Chipper be better than Matthews if Matthews played now or if Chipper played then. I don’t think there is much doubt Chipper might be something close to a Babe Ruth if he went back to 1950’s-1960’s style baseball, as most great players these days would. But it’s no fun to just say recent players are the best and not have the historical arguments.
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:33 pm
Jeff R – Yeah, seems like he did.
For those who don’t know what I’m talking about, look at his 1975 Topps ballcard. Perfect example:
http://baseballsimulator.com/baseballcards/front.php?id2=12507
NickB
July 10th, 2012
3:35 pm
Offensively, no other 3rd baseman is really that close to Chipper. Defensively he is the worst of the “top 5″.
I still think Schmidt is the 2nd best hitter (behind Chipper) and 2nd best fielder(behind Robinson)
Offensive rankings
1)Chipper
2)Schmidt
3)Matthews
4)Brett
5)Robinson
Defensive Rankings
1)Robinson
2)Schmidt
3)Brett
4)Matthews
5)Chipper
Now, being that over 2/3rds of a players value come’s with his bat , if you multiple their O placement by 2 and add it their defensive placement and lowest number is best you get :
Schmidt- 6
Chipper-7
Matthews-10
Brett-11
Robinson-11
IMO, the numbers really bear out Chipper as the 2nd best 3rd baseman of all time
DAM
July 10th, 2012
3:37 pm
They need to go back to a balanced schedule. Play everyone in your own league 9-10 times, and then play every other team in the other league twice.
Jeff R
July 10th, 2012
3:38 pm
All things being close to equal, I’ll take the best players from today over the best players of the 1950’s-1980’s, maybe even into the 1990’s. People in general are just stronger, faster, better physically. And I would venture to say athletes know how to do things better, as well.
Why would that be, Shaun? it would have nothing to do with genetics – humans (homo sapiens, to be precise) aren’t different now than they were in 50s or 60s or many thousands of years ago.
What’s different in sports is the science of conditioning, diet, medicine, etc. In fact, that’s generally true in advanced nations, especially in the West.
TennesseePaul
July 10th, 2012
3:39 pm
Details will come soon about interleague schedules for next year.
I’m looking forward to this because I am very curious about the logistics of this. I read in some places about reducing inter-league play during the stretch run, but that just seems near impossible. Not a fan of this format. But then, I’m not a fan of inter-league play as a whole. It makes money, which I don’t deny, but that doesn’t mean I have to like it.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
3:40 pm
Shaun
yer a Saber guy too, the ONLY stat of wOBA ,OBP, SLG%, OPS, ISO, wRC+ that Chipper isn’t first in 3rd baseman of all time is ISO (he’s 3rd).
If he had been a butcher at 3rd with a career UZR of like -80 or something I could see him dropping out o the top 3, but he wasn’t. (in fact it’s only due to 3 seasons his UZR at 3rd isn’t a positive number)
When you combine the large degree of offensive prowess with the avg defense, I think he is 2nd to Schmidt.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
3:41 pm
Nick, Boggs easily beats Robinson in offense. So do Santo and Rolen for that matter.
mpimentel
July 10th, 2012
3:42 pm
hey DOB are you sure?….saying that chipper is better than AROD?…ARE YOU SURE?…well man let me tell you something, this is the first time I heard it…first of all ask chipp this: hey larry do you think that you are a better (in any baseball way) than alex rodriguez? lololol….I think I’m the only sober blogger here!!!!
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:42 pm
So American will have 15 teams, and National will have 15 teams. Will they go with 8 seeds in each League? Plus Wild Cards in those seeds?
TennesseePaul
July 10th, 2012
3:43 pm
Why would that be,…
If you noticed, the modern day player is better than those of the 50s-80s+, but not necessarily better than those players of 1860-1949. And of course, the players from 1993-2005 were the most naturally gifted players ever, never you mind the chemists behind the curtains.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
3:45 pm
true, but Robinson is the greatest defensive player of all time at any position according to UZR, dWAR DRS and just about every other halfway dependable defensive metric, I think he gets named to enough lists to merit inclusion in the top 5 of all time at 3rd.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
3:46 pm
mpimentel
Arod has played well over half of his games at SS
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
July 10th, 2012
3:49 pm
The blog consensus so far:
1.Schmidt
2.Matthews
3.Brett
4.Robinson
5. Chipper
p.s. Most of us know how to properly quantify defensive metrics when it comes to baseball
Murph
July 10th, 2012
3:49 pm
A lot of guys (scoots, nolie, Lew, etc) are still on the old blog. I’m guessing this is the new official blog?
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:51 pm
This is like debating what our favorite color is. Na dwhy it should be your too.
Where are the maroons like Murph, Bat and MikeinFl so we can debating something important.
For all intensive purposes, this just goes in a circle.
How about this: Are the Nats counting Strasburg’s pitches / innings count in the ASG against his 170 for the year?
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
3:51 pm
Jeff R, I suspect there are lots of reasons. I wouldn’t discount genetics. People may be different genetically because of some sort of selection. Also, I believe all those things you mentioned play significant factors.
ChattTownBrian
July 10th, 2012
3:52 pm
Well you have DOB screwing with us posting the same thing on two blogs.
Jimmy
July 10th, 2012
3:52 pm
Murph -which is the old blog?
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
3:53 pm
Baseball Reference WAR:
Mike Schimdt: 103.0 in 2404 games
Eddie Mathews: 91.9 in 2391 games
Wade Boggs: 88.3 in 2440 games
George Brett: 84.0 in 2707 games
Chipper Jones: 81.0 in 2436 games
Of course all of these numbers are cumulative, and don’t take into account peak value.
Adam Darowski’s weighted WAR(wWAR) takes peak into account. Check it out: http://darowski.com/hall-of-wwar/
Schmidt: 178.7
Mathews: 154.8
Boggs: 144.4
Brett: 135.3
Jones:113.2
For some reason it ranks Chipper pretty poorly. Brett too, somewhat. I do give both of them some injury credit though.
ChattTownBrian
July 10th, 2012
3:53 pm
Well Shaun’s here, so I suspect this is the REAL blog. Surely he wouldn’t want the regs to miss his masterpieces? …
mpimentel
July 10th, 2012
3:54 pm
best ever 3rd’s: 1.-rodriguez (his over 600 homers, almost 1k xtrabase hits and almost 2k rbi’s talks by itself, plus 2 MVP,and closed enough to 3k hits too, a very under rated defense) , 2.- schmith (3 mvps, so many leadin marks amoung 3rd’s,), 3.- broock (definetly the best defensive one by far), 4.- brett (better bat amoung 3rds. except AROD), 5.- jones (solid batter, poor defense, so fragile, but a very good sum of stats)…with respect this is THE LIST
Ward
July 10th, 2012
3:55 pm
All, have a good one! Fun talking about 3rd baseman. Who’s the best catcher of all time, and Top 5? Peace my friends, and talk later…..”Go!!!!!National!!!!!”
NickB
July 10th, 2012
3:56 pm
Baseball reference WAR is worthless trash
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
3:57 pm
If you noticed, the modern day player is better than those of the 50s-80s+, but not necessarily better than those players of 1860-1949.
The reason I mentioned the 1950’s-1980’s is because that’s when the thirdbasemen we are discussing, aside from Chipper and A-Rod, played the bulk of their careers. But I would say, for the most part, the player population has gotten progressively better over time, whether that’s 1900-1950 or 1950-2000.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
3:59 pm
mpimental
um Arod has played 2484 games , less than half of them at 3rd Base
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
4:00 pm
A-Rod counts as a shortstop, as that is where he has played most of his games, and played there during the most productive part of his career.
Nick, I do prefer Fangraphs actually. I may post it in a minute.
ncbravesfan90
July 10th, 2012
4:00 pm
“Forget about acquring a SS. Stick the Rev back in there and lets get the hitters on this team to step it up.
Uggla, McCann (coming around nicely), Heyward and Freeman.
If these guys can hit at their expected levels, we’ll be fine for 5-6 weeks.”
It’s not as much the hitting im concerned with as it is the defense. With the guys I mentioned trading for earlier, you get both offense and defense.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:00 pm
not to mention the roid usage of A-rod taints his numbers
Danga
July 10th, 2012
4:01 pm
I’ll take the best players from today over the best players of the 1950’s-1980’s
If for no other reason that there are simply more people competing now than then. Much, much more player development coming from all over the world.
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
4:01 pm
I would say the only time the quality of the player population was worse than in prior years was maybe during war years, when some great players were removed from the player population altogether.
RemoW
July 10th, 2012
4:03 pm
MLB Expert: Boggs “the double machine” had 578 career doubles. Chipper sits at 536 (with a few more to come before the year is out) and 118 HR. Chipper has 460 HR. As an offensive force they are not in the same league. Chipper is also 35th ALL TIME in RBIs. Boggs does not crack the top 250.
Over the length of a 19 year career all managers would take Chipper over Boggs. Chip does more damage.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:03 pm
MLB EXPERT
here is my blog (humor blog) presenting the argument that Chipper is the best hitting 3rd baseman of all time,
http://derangedangryhillbilly.blogspot.com/2012/07/chipper-jones-is-best-hittin-3rd.html
I think that being the best with the bat EVER at your position makes him in the discussion for best 3rd baseman ever. (though I think he finishes 2nd in overall ability to Schmidt due to defense)
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
July 10th, 2012
4:05 pm
Bill James once told Peter Gammons that Ozzie Smith saved his team over 100 runs per season. That’s the difference between a 3.50 and a 4.30 ERA for a pitcher.
So then the question must be asked, how many runs per season can be quantified defensively from these 3rd basemen?
Brooks Robinson had 13 gold gloves, Mike Schmidt 10, George Brett 1, Eddie Matthews 0 and Chipper 0
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
4:05 pm
saying that chipper is better than AROD
You mean A Roid? A Roid has more GP’ed at SS than he does 3B.
Ward
July 10th, 2012
4:06 pm
Before I go, it was good seeing the regulars back on the blog. Last night was scary….. I thought I was talking to Aliens, and left in great fear……..Peace out, and talk later tonight!” Go!!!!!!National!!!!!!” home field…..
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:07 pm
speaking of player’s being lost to Wartime, every time I think about what Ted Williams’ numbers are already, factor in 3 complete season lost to WW2 and 250 games lost to Korea, it boggles the mind where he would have ended up.
He really could have been a .345/.490/.650 guy with 700 HR’s,3450 hits,700 doubles and 2400 RBI’s
eeeesh
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
4:08 pm
Don’t feel like typing it out, so here is the stats: http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.aspx?pos=3b&stats=bat&lg=all&qual=y&type=8&season=2011&month=0&season1=1871&ind=0&team=0&rost=0&age=0&players=0
While Robinson is barely ahead of Jones and Brett in this ranking, I deduct points because he played so much longer. Those fielding numbers are interesting, and I have a feeling they make Jones look worse than he is, however as I said before he is likely average, nothing more nothing less.
Other than Chipper and Rolen, I think Adrian Beltre will end up making the Hall of Fame. He is still young and if you project his stats, especially playing in Arlington, he is going to end up with close to 3,000 hits and substantial RBI numbers to go along with his defense.
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
4:10 pm
RemoW, Boggs and Chipper’s offensive values are reasonably close and Boggs had more defensive value. But I think it’s close.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
July 10th, 2012
4:12 pm
Another thing to consider about Chipper Jones. Dude blew out his knee in 1994 and lost a step. Then proceeded to still put together a Hall of Fame career…….now can people understand why he was originally a SS? or how great Chipper could have been if not for all the leg injuries.
DawgDad
July 10th, 2012
4:12 pm
“All things being close to equal, I’ll take the best players from today over the best players of the 1950’s-1980’s, maybe even into the 1990’s. People in general are just stronger, faster, better physically. And I would venture to say athletes know how to do things better, as well.”
This is just flat-out ridiculous. Baseball careers overlap on a continuum and the top players with long careers can perform at a very high level over a couple of decades. Warren Spahn was a great pitcher in the post-war 40’s and he won 23 games in 1963. The next year he and Phil Niekro played together on the Braves. In 1987 Niekro and Tom Glavine were Braves teammates. Derek Jeter’s career overlaps Tim Raines whose career overlapped Carl Yastrzemski, who broke in in 1960. Is Chipper less of a player today because all the other players around him are better on average physically than when he broke in? Mickey Mantle hit 450-500 foot home runs (plural). Reggie Jackson hit a ball OUT of old Tiger Stadium. I’m here to tell you, the top players in the 50’s and 60’s, Aaron, Mays, Musial, Mantle, Koufax, Gibson, Spahn, et. al., would be the TOP players in the game today. These guys were great athletes, and as skilled as any baseball player ever was or will be.
Pull out the video some time of Bob Gibson throwing sliders in the 1968 World Series, especially to Willie Horton, and THEN try to convince me he wouldn’t be the best pitcher in baseball TODAY, throwing the same way. Watch Koufax pitch. Try to tell me Spahn couldn’t match what Glavine did, transposed to 1995.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
4:12 pm
Remo, I too would take Chipper’s bat over Boggs.
In OPS+, probably the most important offensive stat, Jones beats him by 10 points, 141 to 131.
OPS+ sets the league average at 100. So Chipper was 41% above average, and Boggs was 31% above average.
I was just pointing out Boggs great offensive skills. For 7 seasons, he was flat out ridiculous in the average and on base department: http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/b/boggswa01.shtml#1983-1989-sum:batting_standard
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
4:14 pm
I have a hard time seeing Rolen ever making the HOF?
Danga
July 10th, 2012
4:14 pm
So then the question must be asked, how many runs per season can be quantified defensively from these 3rd basemen?
A SS impacts the game defensively much more than a 3B.
Jeff R
July 10th, 2012
4:15 pm
Shaun, selection migh play something of a role, but I doubt the impact is dramatic.
I think if Ted Williams or Warren Spahn were coming along today they’d be every inch better than their competitors. Talent is an X Factor in any generation.
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
4:16 pm
coach, I don’t know about Ozzie saving his team 100 runs a season. I guess that depends on what you are comparing him to. To a fringe defensive shortstop, the best estimates have him saving around 30-50 runs a season in most years, no more than 50 in his best seasons.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:18 pm
I also think that Chipper’s ability to be an elite player from both sides of the plate (where most switch hitters are merely average or worse from one side) gives him nearly a 1 WAR per season in added value which isn’t taken into account by WAR stats.
Ted Turner
July 10th, 2012
4:20 pm
They should start making his statue now.
CrαZy
July 10th, 2012
4:21 pm
Jon Heyman@JonHeymanCBS
comebacking star ben sheets will start sunday for the #braves. http://cbsprt.co/M1bxcw
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
4:21 pm
It will be hard for Rolen to get in, but it is very possible with the advanced statistics gaining steam. He has some good traditional awards that voters like and good traditional numbers for his position as well. I have no doubt that he deserves it though. Just wish he had a more healthy career.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
4:23 pm
I understand why switch hitting can be an advantage to a hitter, but I don’t understand how it can make the final results somehow worth more.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:24 pm
hmmm, good to see Sheets coming back. Let’s hope he regains his old form. Could be the best value pickup of the season, for any team
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:25 pm
well, if you consider matchups late/close in this age of bullpen specialization I think it adds considerable value to a player
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:26 pm
MLB EXPERT
yeah, if Rolen could have stayed a bit more healthy, he would have been a lock, I think he’s going to end up in the Hallf of the Very Good though, on the outside looking in
Shaun
July 10th, 2012
4:28 pm
DawgDad, Spahn probably would have established himself in the early-to-mid 1940’s, if not for the war. His last really good season was 1963. So that’s a 20 year span. I would say looking within 20 years may not be enough of a time frame to look and notice that players generally get better over time, especially when only looking at one player, and one of the very best players of all time.
I think you would notice subtle differences over a 20 year stretch if you look at the general player population and you’ll start to notice a big difference at around 30 years.
With individual players, I think guys like Gibson and Koufax would still be good even great today if you put them into a game as they were at their best. I just don’t think they would be as great as they were then. And then if we take the average player at any position from the 1950’s or 1960’s and put him in a game in 2012, I think they would look like second-division types, at best, maybe even closer to fringe types.
MLB Expert
July 10th, 2012
4:28 pm
It adds value to the hitter, sure. But it doesn’t add value to the results.
Chipper’s line would be just as good if he had hit from one side as it is being hit from both sides.
The only possible additional value I can see would be minimal, in the case of a pinch hitter allowing the manager to keep an extra player.
DAP
July 10th, 2012
4:29 pm
i think Rolen might need a healthy season or two to be a HOFer. could happen, but i wouldnt count on it.
switch hitting is actually harder to do. so if you do it well, especially the way chipper has, it shows what a remarkable and unique talent you have. even many other top switch hitters had a good side and a bad side. chipper is really good either way.
NickB
July 10th, 2012
4:32 pm
I disagree, if Chipper had hit left handed for his entire career his numbers may have been better overall, but his value to the team would have been less. Having a star batting against a hard throwing lefty from the right side creates more run scoring chances than the same star hitting lefty against the same pitcher.
The ability to have quality at bats from both sides of the plate is an unusual and highly prized ability that is statistically very difficult to quantify into overall value. But does it add 1/162nd of a win to each game? 1/300th? I have no idea……….. I don’t know how you could even figure that out.
But it does add value
Efrim
July 10th, 2012
4:35 pm
Jim Bowden has no idea what he’s talking about when it comes to trades of prospects, etc. It’;s amazing that he has a job at ESPN saying that teams should be giving up big prospects for 2 months of Shane Victorino.
Bay Area Steve
July 10th, 2012
4:35 pm
NickB,
Would you please explain your rationale for seemingly always relying on fWAR for your statistical arguments here, but criticizing Baseball Reference’s version? I’m curious.
nolie
July 10th, 2012
4:35 pm
at one time years ago, during his first term at third, Chipper was thought of by many sabergeeks as the worst fielding third baseman in baseball. the yearly mags used to really roast him