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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,709 comments Add your comment
jeffrey d
June 20th, 2012
5:16 pm
The Jungle Book?
Mitchell
June 20th, 2012
5:18 pm
Glad to hear the kind words… no, make that glowing praise… Chipper had for the new Yankees Stadium and the experience of playing in the Bronx one last time.
Thanks Chipper. Why don’t you just ask for a trade?
Hey, here’s a thought, maybe if you guys had won five World Series like the Yankees, instead of, uh, one, you’d have a museum full of trophies and memorabilia players from other teams would want to ogle as well.
You might even have a better stadium not located in the most random part of Atlanta.
I’m not bitter.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:18 pm
don’t think its right about that line up construction and there is no proof that it is
Shaun
June 20th, 2012
5:18 pm
Where do the machines say the best hitter should be? And who should be batting 3rd?
I’m not sure. All I know is what the extensive research suggests. But who wants to pay attention to empirical research? Certainly that’s not the way to get ahead in any industry, to actually gain knowledge based on in-depth research. No. Industries should just always go on gut and convention and tradition, regardless of what the objective data suggests.
ncscoots, read “The Book.” I’d venture to say those authors know at least as much, possibly more, than you or I or anyone who posts here about statistics and researching data. Until you’ve read it, I’m skeptical of your claims that their arguments are more flawed than yours.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:18 pm
i don’t rely on any on thing for anything baseball related, but stuff like lineup optimization is based on hundreds of thousands of at bats and such. It WOULD make a team “better” how much better is what’s up for debate. Maybe a win or two a year difference?
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:19 pm
another “hater” heard from
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:19 pm
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:11 pm
and the other was too coachie-pooh. last season in the bigs. .
and I said career stolen bases not this year which you so conveniently ignored, and the BA spread was much different when Constanza was called up which I also specified and you ignored, and the OPS is still a 60 or so point difference for Constanza which again proves what I said. In fact you entire response indicates that you missed the point about everything. But why would I be surprised? You always read what you want to instead of what folks actually say.
>>>>>>>>
Nice comeback with the personal attacks, insults and general disregard for anyone’s opinion other than yourself. Well done
VaBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:19 pm
Bourn
Prado
Freeman (I guess….)
Uggla
McCann
Heyward
Chipper
Simmons
I like the Prado batting 3rd idea, he could actually be the best man for the spot… But that would force Chipper or Simmons in the 2-hole which I don’t like. Keep McCann and Heyward in the 5/6 spots.
George Stein
June 20th, 2012
5:19 pm
Damn. So all that time I spent at the bar talking about lineup construction and UZR wasn’t helping me?
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:19 pm
I bet scoots has already read “The Book”
ncscoots
June 20th, 2012
5:20 pm
don’t think its right about that line up construction and there is no proof that it is
Be that as it may, I don’t think we’ll be able to convince Shaun of it. He’s happy with his thoughts, and I say we leave him with them.
jeffrey d
June 20th, 2012
5:20 pm
I’m not bitter.
Your middle name is bitter. Bitchell Bitter McGrump
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:20 pm
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:19 pm
another “hater” heard from.
>>>>>>>
Said the pot to the kettle…….LOL!!!!
ncscoots
June 20th, 2012
5:21 pm
I bet scoots has already read “The Book”
Shaun’s and Stein’s.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:21 pm
Nice comeback with the personal attacks, insults and general disregard for anyone’s opinion other than yourself. Well done..coach
excuse me? you were the one that blared about my “ignorance” in your first response douchewad. what a freakin’ hypocrite….. on top of being and idiot.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:21 pm
I would like Heyward 2nd or 3rd as he gets on base. Prado makes good contact and doesn’t K much so he wouldn’t be a bad #3 guy hitting behind Bourn and Heyward (plus we could go for more stolen bases)
My argument is that Heyward needs more at bats and thus needs to be in the top 3rd of the order.
Efrim
June 20th, 2012
5:21 pm
Six home runs in the Zona/M’s game.
Of course, it’s in Phoenix, which isn’t really that impressive.
Mikey
June 20th, 2012
5:21 pm
Shaun, Babe Ruth,Ted Williams,Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Matthews, Mel Ott, Willie McCovey, Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Eddie Murray, Albert Pujols…….etc. all batted in the third position. “The job of the number 3 hitter is to keep the inning alive” and is usually reserved for your best hitter. Bring your book back.
Double Zero Eight
June 20th, 2012
5:22 pm
Glad the Braves won!. I have no complaints
in how they won. It’s great to see Heyward hitting
with some confidence again. Hope he can keep
it up.
jeffrey d
June 20th, 2012
5:22 pm
Shaun, Babe Ruth,Ted Williams,Willie Mays, Barry Bonds, Mickey Mantle, Eddie Matthews, Mel Ott, Willie McCovey, Billy Williams, Tony Perez, Eddie Murray, Albert Pujols…….etc. all batted in the third position
Shaun batted third?
Shaun
June 20th, 2012
5:23 pm
don’t think its right about that line up construction and there is no proof that it is
I’ll go by the convincing cases laid out by the data and the evidence over just assuming it’s wrong because managers have generally put their best hitters #3 and good contact hitters who can bunt and hit the ball to the right side, regardless of whether or not they can hit well, #2. If someone can lay out a more compelling and convincing argument, I’ll be glad to reconsider.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:23 pm
an argument can be made that “tradition” isn’t always “right” though….. so just saying “all these HOF’ers hit 3rd” isn’t much of an argument
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:23 pm
who is it that I “hate” on coach? What player, coach or team do I rant about over and over?
Man you are simply proving yourself to be way below par mentally every time you open your mouth.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:24 pm
Uggla is second in the NL in walks…..
Which means? teams are pitching around him. Why? because they have been able to get the guy in the fifth hole out most of the time. Which again begs the question?????
Why is Jason Heyward in the seventh hole most of the time, when Heyward has been the hottest bat all month ??????????
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:24 pm
nolie
what exactly IS par mentally? :-p
ncscoots
June 20th, 2012
5:25 pm
Shaun batted third?
Shaun would have spit, before batting 3. “It’s 2 or nothing!”, he says.
Efrim
June 20th, 2012
5:25 pm
Troy Tulowitzki is scheduled to undergo arthroscopic surgery Thursday on his injured groin.
Now is the time to clean house there. I mean, a 4-man rotation? Jim Tracy is awful and so is Dan O’Dowd.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:25 pm
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:23 pm
who is it that I “hate” on coach? What player, coach or team do I rant about over and over?
Man you are simply proving yourself to be way below par mentally every time you open your mouth.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
Said the pot to the kettle…again. You’re turn genius.
David O'Brien
June 20th, 2012
5:26 pm
Braves optioned Todd Redmond back to Triple-A Gwinnett to open roster spot for Jurrjens.
VaBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:27 pm
Heyward has put up monster numbers in his career when batting 6th (960+OPS). His second best spot in batting 2nd (780 OPS). Every other spot he’s produced under a 700 OPS.
Also during his great rookie season he only batted in the 6th hole 13 times so. so its not like his numbers are padded in the spot from 2 years ago.. When batting 6th this season Heyward completely mashes, and even last season which was horrible overall he still produced a 760 OPS in the spot.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:27 pm
The job of the number 3 hitter is to keep the inning alive” and is usually reserved for your best hitter Mikey
exactly, a good number three scores about as many runs as he drives in.
and those aren’t all that “convincing” to most of us Shaun. Proof, man, proof….
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:27 pm
it’s “your turn” not “you’re turn” or you are turn…..
that’s kinda really funny , hahahahahaha!!!
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:28 pm
you are the pot AND the kettle you little hypocrite, always have been.
abeeewright
June 20th, 2012
5:28 pm
The place where “The Book” and I will be in absolute agreement is that there is no rational line up construction that could ever induce a manager to bat Alex Gonzales in the 2 hole.
And yet … it happened in Atlanta.
ncscoots
June 20th, 2012
5:28 pm
If someone can lay out a more compelling and convincing argument, I’ll be glad to reconsider.
Since no one has ever been able to meet your standard of “compelling and convincing”, regardless of logic or data, I believe your hidebound opinions are safe from attack.
Fact is, no one wants to convince you otherwise, anymore. Any discourse with you these days is simply an attempt to provide a countervailing opinion to folks whose minds actually are open to being convinced. That doesn’t include you, sadly.
George Stein
June 20th, 2012
5:28 pm
You’re turn genius.
This is precious.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:29 pm
whatever it is it’s way above coach.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:30 pm
Thank you nolie, yourrrr’eeee still a genius.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:31 pm
about the lineup, in reality, it doesn’t really matter as long as your top 3 OBP guys are hitting 1 2 and 3, (and increase in slugging as you progress)
You would rather put the high K high reward guys 4-6 and then fill the other two spots in diminishing fashion. “The Book” is probably right hen it comes to optimization, but the game isn’t played optimally really. But it’s rules of lineups ,roughly followed, will help a team score more runs I believe.
But the impact versus a logically put together lineup? probably not very much
Brava
June 20th, 2012
5:31 pm
Well. Efrim, I guess you are calling me a liar? Or better yet, thinking for me? Whatever the case, you have no room to call anyone a hater. I haven’t forgotten the way so many of you savaged Constanza simply because Fredi was playing him in Jason’s stead. I challenge you to find anything I said about Jason that even compared to the animosity you guys were spewing on here.
David O'Brien
June 20th, 2012
5:31 pm
9 home runs by Braves (5) and Yankees (4) today were the most in a game at new Yankee Stadium. Previous high was 8.
MiaBchBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:32 pm
This is the most bipolar Braves team I have seen since 1968.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:32 pm
Fact is, no one wants to convince you otherwise, anymore. Any discourse with you these days is simply an attempt to provide a countervailing opinion to folks whose minds actually are open to being convinced. That doesn’t include you, sadly Scoots
yep that’s about it, directed at others who are open to discourse. sad thing, Shaun used to serve a good function
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:33 pm
@ Brava
the difference is that Heyward is a promising young player who needed to be playing and Constanza is a AAAA player with limited value.
True the animosity should have been directed more towards Fredi for starting him over Heyward, but it’s hard to not hate the guy a little bit when his lousiness was taking playing time away from Heyward.
McFann :Ô: :Ô: :ô:
June 20th, 2012
5:33 pm
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!! Beachy……
Figgered it was coming, but…boy, that’s a real shame…
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:34 pm
mostly because it is so young, even good young teams are inconsistent, most that age are just flat bad
MiaBchBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:34 pm
I guess JJ gets Beachy’s slot.
Choppinmama
June 20th, 2012
5:34 pm
Not too thrilled with the work of our DHers yesterday and today. If Huddy’s ankle wasn’t barking and it wasn’t so hot today, the pitchers might have done a better.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:34 pm
David O’Brien
June 20th, 2012
5:26 pm
Braves optioned Todd Redmond back to Triple-A Gwinnett to open roster spot for Jurrjens.
>>>>
Geesh, the kid didn’t even get to pitch.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:35 pm
I don’t think that time spent on the injury list should count against service time for players before they hit free agency
abeeewright
June 20th, 2012
5:36 pm
By the way, for Monday’s line up construction, do you use career statistics to determine your best five hitters? Only the 2012 season numbers? The last nine games?
What does “The Book” say in this regard?
Brava
June 20th, 2012
5:37 pm
That is not a justification, NickB. It’s an excuse. My point is, don’t accuse me of something you are guilty of.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:38 pm
not sure I understand you Nick. are you saying that a guy our for a year should still get credit for service time?
cabravesfan
June 20th, 2012
5:38 pm
For the cereal lovers on the Blog:
http://gma.yahoo.com/blogs/abc-blogs/deep-fried-cereal-debuts-county-fair-200923198–abc-news-topstories.html
VaBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:38 pm
Brian McCann’s biggest fan on earth “McFann” even thinks he should be batting 5th… What else does Fredi need to hear or see? Cause it’s obvious he doesn’t look at the stats which are facts.
TheOnlyBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:38 pm
I guess JJ gets Beachy’s slot
For now…. I bet he doesn’t keep it long though,…
Braves optioned Todd Redmond back to Triple-A Gwinnett to open roster spot for Jurrjens.
Geesh, the kid didn’t even get to pitch
Sucks…. Barring a trade or Teheran getting called up soon, he might get to pitch soon. I not expecting JJ to be very good. I hope he is, but I wouldn’t expect it.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:38 pm
not sure I understand you Nick. are you saying that a guy our for a year should still get credit for service time?
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:38 pm
Uggla is second in the NL in walks…..
Which means? teams are pitching around him. Why? because they have been able to get the guy in the fifth hole out most of the time. Which again begs the question?????
Why is Jason Heyward in the seventh hole most of the time, when Heyward has been the hottest bat all month ??????????
C’mon all you Fredi g. haters…….spit it out already.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:40 pm
hmmm. a double post spaced out across time. interesting…
SAL
June 20th, 2012
5:40 pm
Braves win two games against the Yankees. Quick, pop the champagne bottles!
TheOnlyBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:40 pm
Brian McCann’s biggest fan on earth “McFann”
She isn’t fat…..
Anyways, who does he want to bat 3rd if McCann hits 5th? Not Freddie, he’s been struggling, Heyward needs to show consistency, and Simmons is a rook.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:41 pm
nolie
let me explain
Player A is a 2nd year player pre arbitration and goes on the DL for TJ surgery in June of 2012, he misses 14 months and comes back to pitch in August of 2014, the following year he becomes 1st year arb eligible, where IMO his lost time should not count and he should be a 3rd year pre arb player
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:42 pm
crap should be 2013 my bad
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:42 pm
Nine HR’s today. New Yankee Stadium……kinda reminds me of the old launching pad we called Fulton County Stadium.
George Stein
June 20th, 2012
5:42 pm
My point is, don’t accuse me of something you are guilty of.
I don’t intend to be difficult, Brava, but this is a completely untenable position. The behavior of one person does not affect the wrongness or rightness of your behavior.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:43 pm
ok I getcha Nick, but I sure as helckdisagree. He was worthless to the team why should he get a bigger raise for no production at all.
Shaun
June 20th, 2012
5:44 pm
ncscoots, where is your convincing and compelling argument against the arguments that The Book lays out about batting order? I haven’t seen it.
Nerdville
June 20th, 2012
5:44 pm
So big deal. They finally won a couple of games. It’s about time. They will just go to Boston and lose some more. You watch.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:44 pm
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:40 pm
hmmm. a double post spaced out across time. interesting…
>>>>>>>>>
Yea it’s a conspiracy. Call Moulder and Scully…..LOL
Danga
June 20th, 2012
5:45 pm
My point is, don’t accuse me of something you are guilty of.
Pft. If this were the case, this blog would have many fewer posts.
David O'Brien
June 20th, 2012
5:46 pm
Braves notes: Jurrjens vs. Lester on Friday; he’s Kimbrel-ing again; 6-1 in last 7 road games
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/06/20/braves-notes-jurrjens-vs-lester-on-friday-kimbrel-ing-again/
kreedham
June 20th, 2012
5:46 pm
With Prado moving to 3rd our infield is set for a year or two or three. With Bourne probably gone we need two ourfielders.. Need to get one now in a trade. Option, trade or release Diaz (I like Matt be he’s not cutting it! Chipper needs to DH all 3 games in Boston and sit out every 3rd game against NL.
reckingball
June 20th, 2012
5:46 pm
How were the Braves able to win 2 games at Yankee Stadium without Constanza?
George Stein
June 20th, 2012
5:46 pm
Don’t confuse the absence of an argument with nonexistence of one, Shaun.
abeeewright
June 20th, 2012
5:47 pm
Sad, but not surprised to hear the Beachy news. Glad they’re not going to prolong the agony. Get r done and see you next year.
I have low hopes for Jurrjens as well, but you’ve got to give him his shot and see whether he has anything. If he stinks it up, you can release him and move on. If he starts to return to his old self, you look like a genius.
Danga
June 20th, 2012
5:48 pm
By the way, for Monday’s line up construction, do you use career statistics to determine your best five hitters? Only the 2012 season numbers? The last nine games?
Yeah. It is impossible to know who your best offensive performers are going to be on any one day, but you can reasonably guess. The other challenge is distinguishing between the 3rd-7th best hitters on your time. Most teams will have a guy who is obviously the best and a total bum at the plate, but there is probably very little separation between a lot of the other guys.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:48 pm
nolie
I just re-read what i wrote and it’s wrong.
if you leave say 2nd year and come back 3rd year, then you should pickup counting the games for your 2nd year then (and say 90 games is a season as far as advancement goes to next service year)
so Beachy was in 63 games in 2012, when he comes back in 2013, he would pick back up and unless he reached 27 games for 2013, he wouldn’t increase his service year, but would instead remain at the year he left.
1st year – played all games
2nd year – 63 games
3rd yr- 24 games
4th year is considered the 3rd year of “service time” as far as arbitration is concerned
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:50 pm
how can anybody say that Matt is not cutting it? He is the only guy on the bench that is cutting it. He is here to play against lefties and he is hitting them very well 310 .375 .466 .841
. the rest of the bench pretty much sux though
wreckmaniac
June 20th, 2012
5:50 pm
Great to see the Braves show the Yankees that they know how to play. That sweep last week was disgusting.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:50 pm
so he gets credit for one year instead of 2 of service time see? but this gives the team an extra year of production and control of the player
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:51 pm
yeah, I don’t get the Diaz hate either, his job is to hit lefty’s and he has done his job well, it’s not his fault Fredi leaves him in to hit righty’s too
usnavyvolfaninva
June 20th, 2012
5:52 pm
cabravesfan,
that’ll probably be banned in NYC
Looks like something you’d see on Paula Dean’s show (sans the butter)
McFann :Ô: :Ô: :ô:
June 20th, 2012
5:52 pm
VaBravesFan Brian McCann’s biggest fan on earth “McFann” even thinks he should be batting 5th…
“Even”? Dude, I invented the concept of BMac in the 5-spot!…
abeeewright
June 20th, 2012
5:52 pm
This may have been the first game all year that the Yankees homered in and lost.
nolie
June 20th, 2012
5:52 pm
yeah as a fan I prefer longer control. like bringing a rook up in June usually gives an extra year. what I wanted them to do with Jason, but they didn’t
One Big Dummy
June 20th, 2012
5:52 pm
Count me in as another who has never quite understood the Matty D hate on these blogs!
stizz
June 20th, 2012
5:53 pm
Replacing Beachy with JJ is like crashing a Maserati and having to replace it with an 85 Astro Van.
VaBravesFan
June 20th, 2012
5:53 pm
In over 70 starts batting 3rd McCann has produced under a 720 OPS, but in over 200 starts batting 5th he has a 860 OPS.
Brava
June 20th, 2012
5:55 pm
George Stein, don’t know why you’re jumping in here, but as I stated, I was never a Jason hater. All I’m guilty of is stating my opinion that he should be sent down last season and wanting Constanza to play in his place when he was struggling. I never disparaged him. Yet, I’m being accused of being a hater by someone who ripped Constanza to shreds on a daily basis. But whatever, there’s always been a double standard on this blog. Some people spend all day and night ripping on others while lamenting all the haters frequenting the blog. It’s a joke.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:56 pm
With Jurrjens…… who knows, he may come up and really buckle down to keep his spot.
he CAN be a great pitcher, but I fear he really ticked off the Front Office by not rehabbing his knee to their satisfaction, thus coming into camp and the season with 4 MPH missing
Half Empty
June 20th, 2012
5:56 pm
wow, two wins against the Yanks? Does it get any better than that realistically? Bite on it Braves rippers
Braves donezo
June 20th, 2012
5:56 pm
wow the braves actually won a series, big whoop… team still blows, freddy is the worst, no offense, im sure they will resort back to their usual ways and get swept in boston..
usnavyvolfaninva
June 20th, 2012
5:56 pm
Let’s not put JJ in the casket just yet. I remember the vitriol against Ventors after the slam last week to A-Roid. Maybe this is his breakout game, and he’ll get back on track.
Coach (2012 Fredi's Beisbol Fandango)
June 20th, 2012
5:57 pm
reckingball
June 20th, 2012
5:46 pm
How were the Braves able to win 2 games at Yankee Stadium without Constanza?
>>>>>>>>>>
Because……..
Even though our bench sucks, lacks speed and versatility, Constanza is still Quad A material. The type of athlete who is called up only when the big leaguers get hurt. He’s depth, nothing more.
Shaun
June 20th, 2012
5:58 pm
Don’t confuse the absence of an argument with nonexistence of one, Shaun.
George, I open to the possibility that he has read The Book (and other research on batting order) and can refute the authors’ points about batting order, one-by-one. I would just like to see it in order to determine if I should change my views on batting order. Because if one can lay out a compelling counter-argument, I’m certainly opened to changing my views. I just need something convincing, that’s all. I don’t think that’s too much to ask, a compelling case as to why we should view batting order one way versus another.
All indications are that on average the number three hitter will come up with fewer runners on than the numbers 4 and 5 slots, and leads off the fewest innings.
NickB
June 20th, 2012
5:58 pm
he has a tough matchup against Jon Lester though… depending on which Lester shows up
Half Empty
June 20th, 2012
5:58 pm
I think we all have differing definitions of what constitutes ripping or hating Brava, you were very negative about him over and over and over, I think that is what most are commenting on.
Mikey
June 20th, 2012
6:00 pm
DOB: Would be very interested to get FG and F. Wren’s opinions on the lack of offense sitting on the Braves bench. As others have pointed out on this blog (Hinske, Diaz, Francisco & Wilson) are not exactly “murders row” when it comes to the DH, PH, or that matter speed or “D”.
Brava
June 20th, 2012
6:02 pm
I was negative on his performance, not him. There’s a difference. I never went where the Constanza bashers went. Never.
George Stein
June 20th, 2012
6:03 pm
I’m not jumping in, Brava. I’m only pointing out that your saying that another person is guilty of what they are accusing you of doesn’t hold.