Braves’ Beachy to have season-ending elbow surgery
NEW YORK – It was the Braves’ worst fears realized but news they expected: pitcher Brandon Beachy needs season-ending surgery for his torn elbow ligament.
The burgeoning ace will have ligament-transplant surgery (aka “Tommy John” surgery) done on Thursday by Dr. James Andrews, the renowned specialist who examined his elbow and MRI results on Wednesday to provide a second opinion, after a Braves orthopedist diagnosed a torn ulnar collateral ligament.
Rehabilitation from the surgery is typically 11-13 months, meaning Beachy could be expected to return sometime around the 2013 All-Star break.
“It’s a shame, but Dr. Andrews confirmed what our doctors saw,” Braves manager Fredi Gonzalez said, “and he’s going to have the procedure [Thursday]. We’re going to miss him.”
Beachy, 25, had emerged as an All-Star candidate after going 5-5 with a 2.00 ERA in his first 13 starts, tied for the National League ERA lead and leading the majors with a .171 opponents’ batting average.
“It’s tough,” Braves general manager Frank Wren said. “He was pitching well, really doing everything you could ask. Growing as a pitcher, growing in stature as a guy that you could really expect to shut the other team down. So it’s tough. Tough to lose him, and obviously tough for him.”
The Braves have recalled Jair Jurrjens from Triple-A Gwinnett to move into Beachy’s rotation spot beginning with a start Friday night in an interleague series opener against the Red Sox in Boston. They hope Jurrjens pitches well enough in the next few starts to alleviate their starting-rotation concerns, but Beachy’s season-ending injury could increase the likelihood of the Braves trading for a proven pitcher before the July 31 non-waiver trade deadline.
Braves top scout Jim Fregosi, a special assistant to Wren, was spotted at Cubs starter Matt Garza’s, most recent start, and the Braves are believed to be among the six or more teams interested in the right-hander, who is making $9.5 million this season and has another year of arbitration eligibility in 2013 before he can be a free agent.
The Cubs have also made it known that veteran pitcher Ryan Dempster is available, through Dempster is currently on the 15-day disabled list with a lat strain and is eligible for free agency after the season.
Either pitcher would probably cost at least two prospects in a trade, and those prospects would presumably have to be of a higher quality in a deal for Garza given his contract status.
Dempster is still owed more than half of his $14 million salary this season, and the Cubs might cover a good chunk of it depending upon the grade of prospects they are offered in a potential trade.
Jurrjens was a 2012 All-Star, but his performance plummeted after the All-Star break and knee problems sidelined him for much of the second half of the season. He went 0-2 with a 9.37 ERA and .411 opponents’ average in four starts this season before being sent to Gwinnett and instructed to work on all aspects of his game.
He was just 3-4 with a 5.18 ERA in 10 starts at Gwinnett, including a one-inning tuneup appearance Tuesday, but Braves officials say his performance was better than the numbers indicated and were skewed somewhat by one poor start when he pitched while weakened with flu symptoms.
“I think we get through the next few weeks leading up to when the trading season really begins,” Wren said, “and we evaluate what we have, how guys are throwing and who might be available. It was nice to see our guys bounce back the last couple of days here [against the Yankees]… Our pitchers did a fine job – this was a good series all in all.”
Beachy retired the first 11 batters he faced in Saturday’s game against Baltimore, then felt pain in his elbow when he threw two curveballs that spiked into the dirt against Chris Davis in the fourth inning. When his fastball velocity dipped to 86 mph on a pitch before he walked Davis, Beachy knew something was wrong. Davis was the last batter he’ll face this season.
Among the Braves pitchers who’ve come back strong after Tommy John surgery: Tim Hudson, Jonny Venters, Kris Medlen and Chad Durbin, along with non-roster veteran Peter Moylan, who is currently rehabbing from from shoulder surgery. Braves pitching prospect Arodys Vizcaino had Tommy John surgery during spring training and should be back in 2013.
“It’s never fun,” Braves pitcher Tommy Hanson said. “Especially when you see it happen to a guy like Beachy, who works so hard and is such a good guy. It’s never fun to watch, because I think we all know at any time that could happen to us, too.
“It sucks. I feel really bad for him, but you know how Beachy is. He’ll be fine. He’ll work hard and get back. But obviously he wishes he was here, and so did we.”
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172 comments Add your comment
JipWiz
June 20th, 2012
9:44 pm
First
bruce
June 20th, 2012
9:44 pm
Rooting for you Brandon!
JipWiz
June 20th, 2012
9:44 pm
Sad new. Get healthy Beach!
JoeyBagOBravos
June 20th, 2012
9:48 pm
Jurrjens was a 2011 All-Star… Hang in there Brandon!
Tom
June 20th, 2012
9:54 pm
Only 3 hours after ESPN posted about it.
Michael
June 20th, 2012
9:59 pm
Brandon Beachy was a great ace for the Braves, he will definitely be missed, but I’m looking forward to his comeback in 2013. Beachy for Cy Young 2013!
Quack Quack
June 20th, 2012
10:03 pm
Hang tight Brandon, you’ll be back better than ever.
Best of luck to JJ. Your chance of a lifetime. Make the most of it.
GO BRAVES!!!
Mike Lewis
June 20th, 2012
10:07 pm
Good luck Brandon on your surgery…I met several of your family members at Spring Training this year with one granddad wearing a St. Patrick’s Day Braves Hat printed with “Brandon’s granddad” on the back of the hat! It made me stop and talk to all of them…..My wife and I came down for our 23rd wedding anniversary on the 16th of March!
FireRogerMcdowelldotcom
June 20th, 2012
10:11 pm
what you guys fail to realize that not only do we loose beachy for this year we lose him for all of next year as well.. he wont be ready to pitch before the 2014 season
Braves in last palce by the all star brake
June 20th, 2012
10:11 pm
Yup
Dave
June 20th, 2012
10:15 pm
Glad Dr. Andrews is doing the surgery.
JNick
June 20th, 2012
10:25 pm
He’ll be back by mid-season next year, if we’re lucky….
OrlandoBraveFan
June 20th, 2012
10:27 pm
Get well Brandon, hope it’s a speedy recovery. What prospects would Braves give up for a starting pitcher?
P. Bull Terrier
June 20th, 2012
10:37 pm
Do the Braves have an insurance policy that will cover Beachy’s salary during the time he is on the DL?
Not that an extra $495,000 (prorated, I assume) buys much major league talent these days, but with the Braves shoestring budget, every dollar helps.
Fred
June 20th, 2012
10:42 pm
“FireRogerMcdowelldotcom
June 20th, 2012
10:11 pm
what you guys fail to realize that not only do we loose beachy for this year we lose him for all of next year as well.. he wont be ready to pitch before the 2014 season”
The article says he will be back around the all star break of 2013… And McDowell is a GREAT pitching coach and no one should be talking crap about him.
BravesfaninWis
June 20th, 2012
11:13 pm
I know this news sucks, but Beach is not a ace pitcher DOB. The guy is at .500 with a 5-5 record. Yes he has the best ERA in baseball, but I would rather have a guy who is 17-5 with a 4.00 era at the end of the season versus a guy who is 11-11 with a 2.00 era. Its all about wins and losses, and with that being said, Beach was a average pitcher. I hate that he is injured just as much as the next guy, but its not like he is a Roy Halladay, or Steven Strasburg type of pitcher.
really?
June 20th, 2012
11:27 pm
Give me the pitcher with the 2.00 ERA before a pitcher with a 4.00 ERA any day. Those who look strictly at the pitcher’s W-L record aren’t the most knowledgeable. Unless the pitcher with the 4.00 ERA also is hitting over .300 and driving in a couple runs each time he pitches, the pitcher has ZERO to do with how many runs his team scores.
David O'Brien
June 20th, 2012
11:28 pm
I know this news sucks, but Beach is not a ace pitcher DOB. The guy is at .500 with a 5-5 record. Yes he has the best ERA in baseball, but I would rather have a guy who is 17-5 with a 4.00 era at the end of the season versus a guy who is 11-11 with a 2.00 era. Its all about wins and losses… — BravesfaninWis
No, it’s not. Sorry, but that’s just antiquated and wrong. But if you feel that way, no worries. Just don’t expect me to agree, because I couldn’t disagree more.
Chop Chop
June 20th, 2012
11:34 pm
Well, that sucks for Beachy. At least he won’t have the regression he was due for. Yippee.
Brave Decisions
June 20th, 2012
11:35 pm
http://wp.me/p2lqJ1-8N Rotation Problems and Solutions
Chop Chop
June 20th, 2012
11:35 pm
Of course, maybe the torn ligament in the elbow was the Baseball Gods’ way of implementing their own regression? If true, how sad.
jo killa
June 20th, 2012
11:38 pm
we r going to miss beachy but im excited to see what jj brings to the rotation GO BRAVES beachy will be missed greatly though
YoungerThan ThatNow
June 20th, 2012
11:43 pm
Thanks for the info DOB… not the kind of news you enjoy putting out there, I know, even when it’s not a surprise. But you do your job well and keep us informed as much as possible.
There’s not a team in baseball that wouldn’t take a chance on Brandon Beachy today… even with today’s diagnosis and news! Some may not consider him an “ace” but anybody who’s seen or played much baseball could see his potential a year ago, in addition to what he’s done this season. He’ll be back, and I’m believing that he’ll be back stronger than ever.
And Fred… I’ll bet you a cookie that it’s well before 2014!
Cheesehead is a Moron
June 20th, 2012
11:43 pm
Wisconsin dude – you are nuts. That’s cool though because Obama needs your vote. Keep thinking that logic you be thinking. Put the sharp knives away though…
chem
June 20th, 2012
11:44 pm
W-L record is perhaps the most meaningless stat in all of sports.
Keith Moon Lives
June 20th, 2012
11:44 pm
Beachy is absolutely one of the top pitchers in baseball. Anyone who doesn’t think so, knows nothing about the game !
23rd!
June 20th, 2012
11:45 pm
Yea! We just need to be healthy enough at the end of the year, get a wild card and try to hit some and we’ll have a chance. Cards do it all the time. It’s a lonnnnnnnnggggg (too long) season. Thanks DOB.
23rd!
June 20th, 2012
11:46 pm
Oh And Keith Moon ROCKS!
WhoRu?
June 20th, 2012
11:48 pm
Beachy has 93 mph with movement, excellent control and great location. Heck yeah we need him! Hope Jar Jar (Jair) gets it done. Just afraid it’s not all in his knees now that he’s down to high 80’s on fastball. Let’s beat the Sox!
Dirty Dawg
June 21st, 2012
12:03 am
Seems to me there’s some kind of ‘cloud’ hanging over our doubled-up pitchers. First it was KK, then JJ and now BB. What say we find out what their, at least Jair and Brandon, middle (or other) names are and start using em?
Scottbravesfan
June 21st, 2012
12:04 am
Bravesfaninwis,
Win loss record for a pitcher is by far the most meaningless stat in the sport. A guy could pitch 9 innings every night, striking out every batter, and not giving up any runs and still not get the win. A closer comes in and blows a save but his team scores the next inning to give the home team the win, the closer failed to do his job, but is rewarded with the win. It’s by far the worst stat, maybe in all of sports.
Alaska Braves Fan
June 21st, 2012
12:10 am
FireRogerMcdowelldotcom: Will we all die? Will the world come to an end? Fiery deaths for everyone? Perhaps Beachy will have an average recovery time – AVERAGE, YOU HEAR – and be back in no fewer than 14 months, which means July, 2013.
It’s a sad loss, but today’s pitchers are different sorts of athletes from the old-style guys, like Early Wynn, Whitey Ford, etc. They are super-charged, compared to the older generation, and they throw vibrant stuff. Also, they are expected to hold the other team to three or fewer runs for six innings. In the old days, most pitchers gave up more runs and pitched for more innings, but at lower velocities and with fewer sharp-breaking pitches. We have more elbow injuries because our guys are deliveriing more extreme pitches.
NONETHELESS, we also have a radically different solution, Tommy John surgery. Like so many others, Beachy will have the surgery, do the rehab, and come back as strong as ever. And, THE SKY WILL NOT FALL!! It would be better if we still had him in the rotation, but the glass still is more than half full.
ABF
Alaska Braves Fan
June 21st, 2012
12:12 am
Oops! I meant no MORE than 14 months! Typing too fast for my fingers.
ABF
meeeee
June 21st, 2012
1:05 am
@BravesfaninWis: hehehe you are a completly idiot ,,,you are CLUELESS about BASEBALL!!
for rate one pitcher the most important stat is ERA no WINS
for example: Derek Lowe won 15+ games in 2009 and 2010 with ERA over 4.00 in overall
Brandon Beachy : 5-5 with ERA in 2.00 (best in MLB)
why is that?????
RUN SUPPOURT!!!! Beachy lost games with 3 or less runs of suppourt…example first game in nationals park series this month NATIONALS 3 BRAVES 1 ….only 2 runs for beachy the other one for the bullpen
Lowe won a lot of games with 5 or more runs of suppourt….example: 2010 opening day
final score braves 16 cubs 5
and that dont means Lowe is better than Beachy..PERIOD
what you can do if your team dont score runs??? OK
NickB
June 21st, 2012
4:39 am
ERA is a decent stat for pitchers FIP (fielding independent pitching) is a great comparative tool to use along with ERA (the further the 2 are apart, the more you can expect regression).
Also, K%, BB%, HR% and GB% are good things to look at
Hoss10
June 21st, 2012
5:19 am
Am I the only one who has a little bit of faith in Jurrjens?! I think once he gets settled in, he could be plenty serviceable with a 3.50-sub 4.00 ERA? Sure his ERA wasn’t great in AAA and he was horrible his few starts up with the Braves, but he’s improved. His velocity has picked up, and he has to realize this is a big opportunity for him and that he must show up to not only continue his days in an ATL uniform, but his career as a whole.
Morning Reads for Thursday, June 21st — Peach Pundit
June 21st, 2012
6:01 am
[...] few that I like… – Brandon Beachy will be out for some time due to Tommy John surgery. – A consensus has been reached for a BCS playoff. – The full-length [...]
Buddy Landel
June 21st, 2012
6:53 am
BravesFan in Wisonsin- it’s embarrassing to have a fellow Braves fan that out of tune.
On that note, FW is surely at work as we speak exploring trade opportunities.
longtimefan
June 21st, 2012
7:06 am
AlaskaBravesFan-good post. BravesFaninWis-you continue to post illogical statements.
Steve From Dalton
June 21st, 2012
7:07 am
DOB do you think Tommy John will ever make the baseball Hall of Fame? If John did not take the risk, think how may ballplayers careers would have ended way too soon. Dr Andrews should also be given he due in the HOF
MikeY
June 21st, 2012
7:12 am
Rather than trade for a high-priced starter, I would prefer to move Medlen to the rotation (would make him happier), and trade for a good reliever. Will cost us a lot less in prospects and cash, and solves our problem.
Murdock
June 21st, 2012
7:29 am
Is this the AJC or a Gainesville, FL paper???? Everytime I click on a link to read a story the UF banner for football tickets pops up. Do they not have enogh people in Floriday to fill up the stadium??? Sad. Enough to make me toss up my eggs in the morning seeing those colors.
space monkey
June 21st, 2012
8:05 am
We need Dempster. Garza is another finesse guy. We need somebody who can ruin another team’s day, not throw them batting practice. Power pitching is what we need.
tp
June 21st, 2012
8:10 am
Best wishes, Brandon. You’ll be back before you know it – and with a little extra zip on your fastball with thenew ligament! With the extra time you’ll have on your hands, I suggest seeking out Greg Maddux with the hopes that he can show you how to throw his changeup. Learn to throw that and a Cy Young is in your future!
a fan
June 21st, 2012
8:34 am
Even the great Greg Maddux, who won well over 300 games would tell you wins and losses are less important then just giving your team a chance to win.
dean
June 21st, 2012
8:36 am
The news obviously stinks.
A very wise and successful businessman once told me, “People get on and people get off, but that train is going to keep on rolling. And that includes me.”
Adapt and overcome. Nobody is larger than the whole. Somebody is going to step up. Who is it gonna be?
Bill
June 21st, 2012
8:38 am
Dempster will be a free agent with very high salary plus bonus and no-trade contract..2 or 3 prospects..on DL..don’t believe Braves what that problem. But I,d like to have him otherwise.
Matt Garza sound like very good deal if they could work it out.
braveshoo
June 21st, 2012
8:44 am
The Braves have been robbed before in trades, and I dont want to see it happen again. To take Beachy’s place, you have internal options: JJ, Medlen, and Tehran. Some of these guys just need to play. They are young and will get better. Good examples are Heyward, Freeman, Prado, Simmons, Delgado and Beachy himself. Let the young guys play this year. Next year when we have a lot of extra money available will be our year. The key will be how our young players develop, And whether Frank Wrenn spends our extra money wisely in the offseason.
Disbott3000
June 21st, 2012
8:48 am
Some people. Really. There is so much that can happen in a game to cause a team to loe that have nothing to do with how the pitcher performs, that it seems ridiculous to say a pitchers won-loss record is all that matters. The starter can have a .90 ERA, I mean be LIGHTS OUT, but if his teammates commit a large number of errors and the lineup hits like my great-grandma, then his won-loss won’t reflect how well he has pitched.
Beachy’s very good and only going to get better and I think we’ll really miss him the rest of this season. Get well, Beach.
Nurse Ratched [aka Randal Patrick McMurphy]
June 21st, 2012
8:50 am
Oh, here we go. A built-in excuse for later this season for Wren & Havana Fats; if/when the excrement hits the circular oscillator, you’ll hear the moaning “well, Brandon Beachy was on the DL. If only {yadda yadda yadda – blah blah blah}…” – as if that should save their sorry a**-s from the Reapers Axe. The drama never ends with this team, and a season that started on wobbly wheels has just turned into a Train Wreck…
You gotta feel for this kid, tho. He’s a class act and real player – REAL damn shame. All the best, Brandon, and may you recover with all your skills 100% intact and continue your career right where you left off… \m/_==_
dean
June 21st, 2012
8:53 am
Laugh at me if you want, but if Minor can get over that 5th inning freak out he’s dealing with he’ll be the one.
Brownie
June 21st, 2012
9:02 am
Braves are still in transition, and showing that the young guys can play a little – this is not the time to trade away the prospects to bring in a rental pitcher. it was said correctly above, the Braves have stockpiled young pitching talent just for this very scenario.
Hudson, Hanson, Delgado, Minor (pitching much better), Teheran, Medlin gives you plenty to select from for the remainder of the year WITHOUT getting rid of a couple of players you’re gonna want next year. If you need to bring in anyone, make it a lower cost reliever – less risk.
Does anyone really think Garza would be the difference-maker, and worth trading guys away?
Hubert
June 21st, 2012
9:05 am
Braves Fan in Wisconsin,
Don’t you know that having a low ERA is more important than winning the game? Sheesh, it’s all about fantasy stats and WHIP & ERA are two categories and WINS is only one. Those guys who stay out there for 8 or 9 innings just to get the win are overrated. What is more valuable is someone who gasses it for 5 innings and leaves before he gets tired. Sure, you might lose the game, but stats matter more (Clay Buccholz is 8-2, but Beachy is 5-5 with a better ERA. The Braves might be worse off by 3 games head-to-head, but they look better losing those games than the Sox do winning their games). Get your priorities right!!
Hubert
June 21st, 2012
9:06 am
Oh yeah, Clay Buccholz is pitching this weekend. Where is Beachy?
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
9:08 am
BravesfaninWis – you couldnt be more out of touch with baseball….W-L record, while glamorous to the Sunday paper stat reader, really has zero indication as to how well a pitcher is pitching. You got to look at ERA, WHIP, Ks/walks. A good W/L record comes mostly from the pitcher’s team OFFENSE. A guy with an ERA of 2.00 gives you more then twice the better chance of winning a ball game then a guy with a ERA of 4.00.
Kashi
June 21st, 2012
9:11 am
I wish IDIOT*s doctors in our team would have MRI before let him pitch after complaining of sore arm.
space monkey
June 21st, 2012
9:15 am
Braveshoo: This is the year. Next year we lose Bourn and we lose Chipper. So we have no CF, no leadoff hitter, no speed, and no left fielder (as Prado moves to third). Next year is a disaster. The Braves need to win this year. They have a team that can do it. But they need at least one shutdown pitcher in the rotation. We don’t have anybody who can hang with Strasburg or Kershaw. Need a power arm and it will cost us some prospects.
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
9:21 am
@space monkey – I dont think there is any pitcher out there that is worth the prospects. Gazra is over rated in my eye and no better then Medlen or Tehran. Hamels is about the only guy i would give prospects up for (and not even top 3 prospects) but 1) Phils wouldn’t deal him to Braves 2) he would be a rental 3) odd are he wont even be available. Dempster is on the DL so he is a huge risk at this point.
Bill
June 21st, 2012
9:23 am
How many more Braves’ pitchers will “bit the dusts” before they Fire McDowell?
After reviewing Garza records..forget it.
Don
June 21st, 2012
9:23 am
Mr. O’Brien, I ABSOLUTELY DO NOT UNDERSTAND.
There is a HUGE ELEPHANT in the room, and you and all the writers are IGNORING it.
The MOST SIGNIFICANT PROBLEM, THE MOST UNBELIEVABLE PROBLEM in the HISTORY of the Braves or any major leage team NOW EXISTS and it is being ignored.
For CRYING OUT LOUD – in the 7 years since Leo left and McDowell has been the Pitching Coach – there has been a very large number of different Starting Pitchers – and almost EVERY ONE of them has ended up BEING INJURED.
ABSOLUTELY UNBELIEVABLE — almost EVERY STARTING PITCHER ending up being INJURED in a SEVEN YEAR PERIOD.
With the young (already established as being great) Starting Pitchers the Braves had just in recent years, they should have been SET FOR YEARS TO COME. Now this is DESTROYED.
Just this year, FOUR of their FIVE Starters from last year were comming off INJURIES, and now the brightest spot on their team – BEACHY.
And this is just the TIP OF THE ICEBERG — Of all the large number of different Starters that they have had in the SEVEN YEAR period – almost EVERY ONE has ended up being INJURED.
Sure, in a seven years period, any major league team is probably going to have some pitchers injured — but almost ALL OF THEM – this is ABSURD.
For HEAVENS SAKE, Mr. O’BRIEN – SAY SOMETHING – How can you ignore this – Are you and the other writers COVERING THIS TEAM OR NOT??????????
Don Corleone
June 21st, 2012
9:26 am
In the future, once the Braves have evaluated a minor league pitcher as having ML talent, they should just go ahead and send them to Dr. Andrews for the Tommy John procedure………..because it seems like they are going to all have the surgery at some point anyway. Let’s get it done before they get to the bigs; whether they need it or not.
D man
June 21st, 2012
9:26 am
This stinks, Beachy was going to lead us to the playoffs and now he’s done. I don’t have a lot of confidence in our chances now…
Don
June 21st, 2012
9:29 am
I should have added one thing.
Granted, it is possible that the main fault for this could rest with the manager rather than the Pitching Coach.
That is Leo may have followed his own program for conditioning and handling pitchers without considering input from the manager. Whereas, McDowell could possibly following managers’ instructions.
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
9:34 am
@Don – stop yelling. Leo’s pitching staff had their fair share of injuries also. It wasnt just Smoltz, Glaven, Maddox on the hill. Injuries are a part of a pitchers game. I believe it is a product of how these pitchers GROW UP pitching. their delivery is flawed, and somewhere along the line (prep ball, high school, college) a coach doesn’t have the guts to change it because he is “pitching fine now”. No one is worried about their future. And once you get to Pro Ball, the last thing a pitcher will want to do is change his delivery. Google the inverted w pitching mechanics.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
9:35 am
“today’s pitchers are different sorts of athletes from the old-style guys, like Early Wynn, Whitey Ford, etc. They are super-charged, compared to the older generation, and they throw vibrant stuff.”
Better than these?
Nolan Ryan
Steve Carlton
Jim Bunning
Bob Gibson
Don Drysdale
Sandy Koufax
Ferguson Jenkins
Tom Seaver
And that’s not counting guys like these, who may not have had that “hot stuff”
Catfish Hunter (one of 3 pitchers to win 200 games before the age of 31)(Young and Mathewson)
Jim Palmer
Gaylord Perry
Juan Marichal
beachcomber
June 21st, 2012
9:36 am
This is tough. Thought Beachy would be the last guy have have arm/elbow problems given his clean mechanics. Will need a third vet to pair with H&H to get us to the promised land. Making him left handed wouldn’t hurt either.
Bob Gibson
June 21st, 2012
9:43 am
The reason today’s pitchers are breaking down is because they’re soft wimps.
PS: I like to throw at the batter head.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
9:45 am
MLB lowered the mound after 1968 because of Bob Gibson’s overpowering stuff. 13 shutouts, 28 complete games, 1.12 ERA and struck out 17 in game 1 of the World Series. If he had some run support, he could have gone33-1. He lost 5 1-0 games. These aren’t all old dead guys, either. I’ve got the original, bought-with-a penny-rookie cards for several of them (including Gibson.)
Bill
June 21st, 2012
9:45 am
Google McDowell out of here…
Bill
June 21st, 2012
9:46 am
Agree Don..keep the blogs coming.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
9:47 am
Marichal was a bit aggressive and hot-tempered. John Roseboro of the Dodgers had some words for him at the plate, and Marichal whacked him in the head with the bat.
Disaffected
June 21st, 2012
9:49 am
We can survive the loss of Beachy, but it’s going to take Jurrjens being able to pitch respectably and Medlen being able to give us something approximating what he gave us two years ago, which was a solid 5 or 6 innings every time out.
I’d move Minor to the bullpen. With his ability to miss bats (a skill he hasn’t lost this year despite his struggles), he’s better suited for short relief than Medlen. We all love Medlen, but the truth is that he wasn’t exactly setting the world on fire pitching out of the bullpen. Let’s give Minor a chance in that role and see how he does. You could use him to start innings, to face lefties, or to mop up. He could be a very versatile guy out of the ‘pen. And if he performs well, then he’d be in line to move back into the rotation when more injuries inevitably occur.
Tumbledown
June 21st, 2012
9:49 am
Don: Even though I have been following your posts the last couple of months, I’m a litle unclear about what you really think about the Braves’ pitching since Mazzone left and McDowell took over. You need to tell us what you really think. Don’t hold back.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
9:55 am
Two guys in those lists had arm trouble. Koufax retired early with arthritis in the elbow, and Catfish pitched only 11 good years before he wore out due to diabetes and so many innings. I lived in Oakland while he was there. Charlie Finley signed him to a starting job right out of high school.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
9:56 am
Good morning Tumbledown Should we give them 2 cookies today. None for Mccann or the Boss.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
10:09 am
I posted yesterday about how pitchers are trained and employed these days, and how some of the guys who pitched in the ’90s and last decade disagree with that training, including the pitching mechanics. The ‘73 A’s team while I was in Oakland won the World Series. They carried 9 pitchers on the staff; 5 starters. Hunter, Blue and Holtzman each won over 20 games, and Rollie Fingers was a dominant closer. couple of games. The relievers were spot starters, and even Fingers started a couple of games.
DenizenoftheDay
June 21st, 2012
10:14 am
DOB – Thanks as always for the good work. I’d be curious as to your thoughts as to why the Braves seem to be so much better, at least offensively, on the road than at home….and not just this year. The numbers may refute that but the perception is that they play with more focus on the road than at home. That may serve them well come WC time, if they get there. I can’t figure this team out. They are so streaky. Let’s just hope they get on one of those streaks in September/October and win this thing.
JK
June 21st, 2012
10:16 am
What is going on here? All of our young pitchers have Tommy John surgery or become incapable of pitching. McDowell??????? What is going on here? Someone needs to be accountable for the problems we are having developing our pitchers both physically and mentally.
ACE
June 21st, 2012
10:19 am
Don you can forget DOB calling out Roger or Fredi. He doesn’t want to get throwed from the Harley rides during the off season. I bet Larry Drew wishes DOB covered the Hawks, that way he could get a pass on the decisions he makes too.
Don
June 21st, 2012
10:19 am
Braves Fan, Sorry, but you seem to be missing the main point.
No one is saying that there were not some injuries under Leo. Smoltz had sevreral – but mostly at an advanced age.
But the point is – that in the last SEVEN years, almost EVERY Braves Starting Pitcher has ended up being injured – (and this INCLUDES the YOUNG ONES)
Almost ALL of them being INJURED is the UNACCPTABLE thing.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
10:20 am
How about the Nats? Zimmerman and Strasburg had the surgery.
jim
June 21st, 2012
10:24 am
Don,
If you did some research you would find there were plenty of pitchers who had significant arm injuries under Leo, includding John Smoltz and Steve Avery. There were also several pitchers like David Nied, Alejandro Pena, and Spoonybarger who broke down immediately after leaving the Braves. I doubt if McDowell’s throwing regimen is any different from any of the other MLB pitching coaches today, and no other team having significant injuries to their pitchers (the Toronto Blue Jays is the first team that springs to mind) is putting in a hurry up call to Leo. Isn’t it a bit curious that since Leo was dumped by the Orioles that no other MLB team has brought him in to their organization? If Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz put Bobby Cox in the Hall of Fame, they have also contributed greatly to the legend of Leo.
OTP
June 21st, 2012
10:24 am
So sad for Beachy. He will come back strong.
But, please do not obtain someone on the disabled list, for Pete’s sake!
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
10:28 am
@Don – so you actually blame this on McDowell ? you dont think it has anything to do with they way they threw 90% of their life time pitches BEFORE they came to the braves? McDowell is obviously not changing they way they have pitched their entire lives. maybe he is just your scape goat. why not blame it on Fredi G while your at it. in fact, its all his fault. Its even his fault my that my car uses too much gas.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
10:29 am
Even that young kid Jamie Moyer (young, relative to me, anyway) had the surgery a couple of years ago.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
10:32 am
Why is everyone blaming pitching coaches? It happens. Live with it.
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
10:34 am
^ agreed.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
10:35 am
Moyer is an obvious exception, but a lot of guys had the ligament starting to wear even before high school. It has always been a point of interest to me that many guys come back from the surgery with the same velocity they had before. Beachy may return late next year strong. Again, look at Strasburg.
Morning Reads for Thursday, June 21st
June 21st, 2012
10:37 am
[...] few that I like… – Brandon Beachy will be out for some time due to Tommy John surgery. – A consensus has been reached for a BCS playoff. – The full-length [...]
Bob Gibson
June 21st, 2012
10:44 am
Tip for Today’s Pitchers: Dust them. Put them on the ground. You don’t have to throw 95 mph all the time if you throw at the head.
Rick
June 21st, 2012
10:46 am
Good luck BB! We will see you this time next year!
OTP
June 21st, 2012
10:46 am
So, they go sign D.J. Carrasco. Another has-been, with a 7 ERA. Right, he’ll fit right in.
Gene
June 21st, 2012
10:51 am
Too bad for Beachy and the Braves. I hope that he recovers He is a talented pitcher. The Braves regained a little self respect with the two wins over the Yankees. It would be nice for the Braves to contend for the post season, but I would just like to see them play some hard baseball and get fired up, like Heyward.
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
10:52 am
“W-L record is perhaps the most meaningless stat in all of sports.”
Really? Might want to compare the W-L records of the pitchers in the Hall of Fame with those who aren’t.
W-L records absolutedly are NOT meaningless. Winning is the main team objective. The issue is W-L records ALONE do not always accurately reflect a player’s contribution to winning, because of the way wins and losses are attributed (each game only one player gets the “win” and one the “loss”, yet it is a team sport).
Beachy’s 5-5 record, in contrast to his league-leading ERA, DOES reflect something about him as a pitcher. It reflects his inability to complete games or get to the closer on a consistent basis.
Don
June 21st, 2012
10:54 am
I appreciate some of you explaining this.
I finally UNDERSTAND now – We should ACCEPT THE FACT that almost EVERY BRAVES Starting Pitcher is now going to be INJURED.
After all PITCHING is not that IMPORTANT, anyway.
And we all know that once a PITCHER is seriously INJURED, he always comes back to once again be great. (True, many injured Pitchers do come back and be good – but there is a BIG DIFFERENCE in being GOOD and returning to their former GREATNESS)
So all the BRAVES need to play CHAMPIONSHIP baseball is about TWENTY great young Starting Pitchers – and perhaps we can win another W.S. before we can run them all through the INJURY MILL that has been in operation since Leo left.
jim
June 21st, 2012
10:56 am
Irrespective of the ERA vs W-L record discussion earlier, back in the 40’s and 50’s there were Minor League pitchers (like Warren Spahn to name one) who won 20 or more games in a season. What this signifies more than anything was that minor leaguers were not held to low pitch counts and strict innings limitations. Many of these guys went on to become the durable stars of the 50’s, 60’s, and 70’s. If people like Don are going to look for a reason why so many pitchers today break down, rather than jump to the first coincidence they see, they may look to the changing philosophy about developing pitchers. (Minor leaguers in the pre-free agency, pre-draft period did not cost the team big bucks and were not babied like high draft picks today.) A better study would be to look at the incidence of arm injuries between pitchers drafted out of high school and college. College coaches are interested in winning games and will use a pitcher to the maximum extent necessary to do that, especially in the tournaments at the end of the year. Pitchers drafted out of high school are sent to the minors where the emphasis is purely on development and are handled with extreme care (babied?) during those first 3 years. Do high school draftees break down more or less often than college picks, or at the same rate?
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
10:58 am
I pulled some information together yesterday on pitchers who went directly from high school to the majors. Before the MLB draft, from the late ’40s through the mid ’60s, teams bid on players, and those that received over a certain amount (Bonus Babies) had to spend their first 2 years in the majors. Catfish Hunter was one of those guys. My list included guys from 1955 and after, as the rule was stopped and started a few times. Some of the guys did pretty well, but there were some that didn’t. David Clyde, for example. He was in the majors for 5 years, but he had arm trouble the whole time. Mike Morgan retired in 2002, having played for 12 teams over 25 years, a record at the time.
Some of the guys were barely used the 1st two years and then were sent down to the minors to develop. One guy, Bob Miller is an interesting case. He signed with the Dodgers in 1963, and eventually played for 10 different teams, 3 who won the World Series, and 2 others who won division and league championships. He also played with a few 100-loss teams. He was injured so much during his entire career that when he played with the Blue Jays, the pitching coach (and former teammate) Roy Hartsfield nicknamed him “The Christian” because he suffered so much. He always had a sore arm, but when one of the other guys went down with a sore arm, he would “come in and suffer a few innings.”
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
11:08 am
@jim – There was a time, fairly recently, that MLB teams preferred high school pitchers over college pitchers for that reason. The simply had not had as many pitches thrown. I think that is changing with the success of guys coming back from the ulnar ligament replacement surgery. Again, Strasburg. Clearly the best pitcher in the draft at the time, and he was a college guy. You roll the dice on injury, but when you have pretty solid data that it costs just a year, why not. There hae been stories in the news about parents wanting their sons to have the surgery in their early teens to maximize their draft appeal. That is sad.
jim
June 21st, 2012
11:08 am
Jumping in to the ERA vs W-L record discussion.
The W-L record had more significance prior to roughly 1980 than it does today. Good starters back then completed 50% or more of the games they started. A good W-L record indicated that a pitcher was mentally tough enough to get by on days he did not have his best stuff and to out-duel his rival in those 1-0, 2-1, 3-2 type of games. Since the 80’s and particularly in this century, most pitchers rarely go more than 7-8 innings, and get a decision in a lower percentage of their starts. A good W-L record still does indicate that you were better than the other guy in most of your starts, and that still does have a lot of significance.
David O'Brien
June 21st, 2012
11:13 am
Don you can forget DOB calling out Roger or Fredi. He doesn’t want to get throwed from the Harley rides during the off season. — ACE
Roger doesn’t ride a motorcycle, that I’m aware of. But I’ve had no interaction with him outside of occasional baseball questions, so I can’t be sure.
Tumbledown
June 21st, 2012
11:15 am
McDowell is to blame for everything. After all, wasn’t he the second spitter in that one Seinfeld episode?
Wins and losses? Puhleeze
June 21st, 2012
11:16 am
Maddux would have had 25-50 more wins had the Bravos ever scored more than 3 runs for him.
Cliff Lee, minuscule ERA, and yet to win a game. If you team doesn’t score runs, and your pitcher
gives up one run, your team loses. Is that the pitchers’ fault?
Go back to the Velveeta, plz!
bart
June 21st, 2012
11:19 am
It might be a shorter list to name the Braves pictures who haven’t had surgery.
DOB – How do the braves compare to other pitching staffs as far as injuries go. We seem to have a pretty high rate.
buzzer
June 21st, 2012
11:20 am
Jeez Brandon,
So sorry to hear of your injury. It will be rough but I know you will show the same drive and determination to get back to the Bigs again. You have truly been our best pitcher this year and you will be again. God bless and get well soon.
Braves fans waiting for your return!!
Tumbledown
June 21st, 2012
11:24 am
I wonder how McDowell caused the arm injuries of such pitchers as Mark Prior, Strasburg, Adam Wainwright, Joe Nathan, and countless others throughout MLB over the last ten years. Surely, McDowell (and perhaps Fredi) is the root cause.
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
11:26 am
“The W-L record had more significance prior to roughly 1980 than it does today.”
Again, I disagree. It provides the exact same information about pitching performance it always did, because it is computed the exact same way. What is tells us now (generally, looking over the universe of W-L records) is fewer pitchers are starting 38-40 games a year, fewer pitchers are completing or going deep into games, and long relief is disappearing. When you see all the Cy Young candidates with 19-21 wins you can divine without much effort these guys aren’t starting 40 games and pitching 270-300+ innings. When you see many more relievers in the list and fewer relievers with 15 or so decisions you know the deployment of relief pitching is not the same as it was 30 years ago. It tells me, without looking deeper, Tim Hudson was the Braves most reliable starter last season, JJ was very effective (when he pitched), and D. Lowe was a candidate to be paid NOT to pitch.
jim
June 21st, 2012
11:36 am
Usually good W-L records and low ERAs over an extended span correlate very well. Maddux (and many other good pitchers) would have won more games than they did if their team only scored a few more runs. But they DID have very good W-L records anyway. Cliff Lee this year is a good example of a pitcher pitching just well enough to lose the close games. Lee himself went into the late innings of a number of his starts with a lead only to give it up. He has not had the mental toughness to be better than the other guy in most of his starts this year. Beachy would have a better record than he does if the team had scored more runns behind him, but the other guy’s team wasn’t scoring much either. In several of his losses or no decisions (not counting the last one) he could not finish off an inning and the bullpen gave up the tying or go-ahead run. You can attribute that to bad luck, but the guy with the good W-L record is usually the one that does more often than not get the final out or hold on to a 1-0 lead and not lose 2-1. I’m not knocking Beachy, but saying that ERA and W-L record must be taken together for a pitcher on an above .500 team.
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
11:42 am
@DawgDad – your argument is only somewhat valid. But what do you say about the pitcher who doesnt get any run support? It is his fault the team loses and he gets the L? He cant control the number of runs his team gives him. Thus, a pitchers W-L record shouldnt be an indicator of how good he is pitching.
Lets revert back to the original comment that started this … “I would much rather have a guy who is 14-7 with a 4.00 ERA then a guy who is 5-5 with a 2.00 ERA”.
that to me is just a dumb assessment. Go back to last year and look at Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Jordan Zimmerman, Hiroki Kuroda, Doug Fister, Madison Bumgarner, R.A. Dickey. All good pitchers with sub 3.28 ERA and also having losing records (except Cain, he was 13-12).
john
June 21st, 2012
11:44 am
Beachy you are going to be an outstanding Brave Ace for many years-good luck in 2013
Now Mike Minor STEP UP- Medlin will be fine-Delgaudo will get better unless used too much.-Chipper and Ugl give tgis Kid some more encouragement when he is on Mound…..
Wren STEP UP-need one good Starter and one good mddle relief pitcher as looks like Moylan not ready– no more “cheapies ” -SPEND SOME $$$$$$$-Trade Jurgens and Pastornicky ? -What about Bourn as he not coming back in 2013 ? Brave Fans will come out if Management looks like it BELIEVES
Freddie-Rest Brian more,he looks tired, also, Team CAN WIN without Chipper ,especially if he is having personal problems-look at his At Bats since coming off DL
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
11:48 am
I guess to try to be more clear, the significance of the W-L record hasn’t changed, the significance of the PITCHING it is measuring has changed. A 20-game winner is still a 20-game winner, and a 15-game winner is still a 15-game winner. What’s changed is the underlying significance of the individual pitcher; starters in general are not as significant as they were 30 years ago, simply because they pitch fewer innings, and the W-L stat reflects this.
PMC
June 21st, 2012
11:57 am
This is freaking awful news, for Beachy, the Braves and Braves fans. At the very least we’re looking at over a year of him not being here and he’s one of the best young pitchers in baseball. Run support will help your individual record, ERA’s that low mean the team you play for has a chance to win every night even if you get an ND.
I hope you come back better than ever eventually Mr. Beachy, but it won’t fill the void of not having you in the order every 5th day.
jim
June 21st, 2012
11:57 am
There aren’t many pitchers who are 14 – 7 with an ERA of 4.00. If someone were in that category, it would probably mean that he had a couple of really terrible outings, but if those games were subtracted, the ERA would be below 3.00 for all the other starts. Neither ERA nor W-L record (or even WHIP) tells the whole story of a pitcher’s year-to-year effectiveness, but over a longer span they usually correlate very well for the best pitchers.
PMC
June 21st, 2012
12:00 pm
I’m certainly hoping internal options fill the need though rather than spending a ton for another top of the order starter.
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
12:03 pm
“Lets revert back to the original comment that started this … “I would much rather have a guy who is 14-7 with a 4.00 ERA then a guy who is 5-5 with a 2.00 ERA”. ”
To understand why the poster believes this you need to cast yourself forward into September, when the 14-7 guy is still pitching and the 5-5 guy is not. Over the course of the whole year the 14-7 4.00 guy likely contributed more to the team’s wins than the 5-5 guy who pitched less than 3 months. And actually, the W-L record reflects this. It’s quite a different point to make that the 5-5 guy might be a better pitcher on any specific day while he’s healthy.
There are always exceptions when you look at an individual pitcher for one season, because of run support and all the other “team” factors. But when you start looking at large samples or a pitcher over time W-L record does say a lot about your typical starter, even one with a losing record.
bgvt
June 21st, 2012
12:04 pm
I can’t resist piling on the W-L vs. ERA debate, but I didn’t see anyone mention an excellent case in point as to why W-L can be really cruel to a pitcher: Beachy got an “L” in his last start. I can’t resist saying that the L added insult to injury. He was perfect through 11 batters, walked one batter and came out with an injury. The relief pitching stunk and allowed the inherited runner (thanks Varvaro!). The Braves never regained a tie (in fact, they never even scored) so Beachy was saddled with the L. Was Beachy pitching well? Yep. Did he get an L? Yep. (Granted, his ERA went up when he was charged with 1 run in 3.2 innings).
bgvt
June 21st, 2012
12:09 pm
DawgDad — I think you are giving the original poster too much credit. I don’t think he was saying he wanted a pitcher who had more starts. Eventually, the post compared the same number of decisions with different ERAs. Your point about sample size is valid — and is exactly why Beachy’s 5-5 record really does not reflect how well he pitched this year. He had been on a great run. It is an open question, however, whether he would have continued to pitch as well all year had he not gotten hurt.
PMC
June 21st, 2012
12:12 pm
The 14-7 4.00 ERA guy might well be Derrick Lowe a couple of years ago.
jim
June 21st, 2012
12:18 pm
Matt Garza would probably cost the Braves 2 of the following — Julio Teheran, Christian Bethancourt, Evan Gattis, or Todd Cunningham — would that trade be worth it? Would the Braves be able to hang on to Garza past next year? Would Garza be enough for he team to make the playoffs this year or next?
If the answer to the last question is probably no, then there is no reason to make the trade. It is hard to get a read on this year’s team. One week they look like they are contenders, and the next week they look like a sub .500 team. One more month might indicate just which version of the Braves we will get, and then the rationale for a trade like this can be better understood.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
12:24 pm
30 years ago was 1982. The stats on 4 of the top NL pitchers that season.
Pitcher – - – W – L – Innings – ERA – CGs
Carlton – - -23 – 11 –295 — 3.10 – - 19
Rogers – - -19 – 8 — 277 — 2.40 – - 14
Valenzuela – 19 – 13 – 285 –2.87 – - 18
Andujar —- 15 – 10 – 265 — 2.47 – - 9
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
12:30 pm
The stats on 4 of the top NL pitchers last year. (in order of innings pitched)
Pitcher – – – W – L – Innings – ERA – CGs
Carpenter — 11 – 9 — 237 — 3.45 – - 4
Halladay — 19 – 6 —- 223 — 2.35 — 8
Kershaw — 21 – 5 —-233 —- 2.25 — 5
Lee ——— 17 – 8 —– 232 — 2.40 — 6
That is 30 to 60 fewer innings than the 1982 list
Brave New World
June 21st, 2012
12:31 pm
Good luck and a speedy recovery, Brandon.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
12:33 pm
Ian Kennedy last season was 21-4, 2.85 ERA, 222 innings and 1 CG
NL Cy Young Award Rankings: R.A. Dickey Charges over Matt Cain for Top Spot | :: Sparxxrx LLC ::
June 21st, 2012
12:39 pm
[...] this is the last time we’ll see Beachy mentioned here. His season is over after tearing a ligament in his right elbow, an injury that will require Tommy John surgery. [...]
Bob Gibson
June 21st, 2012
12:45 pm
When I pitched, I owned the plate. If the batter stood close to or tried to lean over the plate, I’d throw at his head. If he didn’t back way up in the batter’s box, then on the next pitch I’d throw at his knees.
Mad31Dog
June 21st, 2012
1:05 pm
Are we really debating the relevance of the “W-L” stat? I thought it was too obvious for anyone to argue for it. I’m just glad that the writers quit handing out Cy Young awards based on W-L records.
richy
June 21st, 2012
1:07 pm
Your delusional if you think this team can contend without making a move for a proven starter. This staff is Hudson then everyone else. They need a solid guy to go behind hudson that will be consistent.
Tomahawk Chops: Daily Atlanta Braves News Clippings For Thursday, June 21st | MLB.Fans-Talk.com
June 21st, 2012
1:09 pm
[...] Braves’ Beachy to have season-ending elbow surgery | Atlanta Braves“It’s tough,” Braves general manager Frank Wren said. “He was pitching well, really doing everything you could ask. Growing as a pitcher, growing in stature as a guy that you could really expect to shut the other team down. So it’s tough. Tough to lose him, and obviously tough for him.” [...]
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:11 pm
@richy And you really think that Dempster or Garza is the answer? HA HA
richy
June 21st, 2012
1:12 pm
No saying those guys are but they would be better than what we have thats for sure.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Are you sure? You are kiddig. No way do you risk good prospects for someone eles problem. You got better in house pitching. In the off season they would not trade them for a bat. So don’t trade them now. Ask the BOSS what he wants to do.
richy
June 21st, 2012
1:22 pm
So in the playoffs, if we make it, you would roll with Hudson, Hanson and Minor as your top three?? No one is saying the braves would have to give up the house to get a guy to help out. And who is this in house pitching you speak of? Medlen cant start. Our bullpen is already in shambles. Is Tehran ready to take on the load of a major league starter? Minor is a joke. Too inconsistent. JJ from last year isnt walking through the door either.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
Hanson JJ Teheran, Redmond, Delgado, Were all untradeable before when we needed a bat. If they are not tradeable then, They are not tradeable now. Garza, Dempster, Vargas are BNOT as good as you already have in house. Go this way. Hudson, Hanson Delgado, Teheran,Medlin, and Redmond. Management not that smart. They will trade away a lot of promising prospects to get a worthless pitcher. Remember the Teixeira deal? Thats how dumb they are. You can win with what you got if you send the BOSS to the house and give us Constanza. Until then forget everything until he finishes his glory trip.
ACE
June 21st, 2012
1:42 pm
DOB, I expected to see you and Fredi join Mr. Kimbrel when he was riding his Harley around Turner Field Sunday. After the game would have been a good time to ask Fredi why he caused Delgado to balk.
John A.
June 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
I for one would like to know what the hell is going on with the Braves pitchers? We are having more than our share of TJ surgeries. It’s about time to start looking at the pitching coach and figure out what he’s doing. With the talent we have there is no reason for these pitching (physical) problems. They (pitchers) must be something that is being taught at the major league level. If that isn’t the case, why do these problems surface after they get to the big club? Tommy Hanson is an example of what i’m referring to…..why didn’t his problems surface in the minors? Are we as fans the only persons to reckonize he had delivery issues? I thought Frank and Fredi,along with Roger were suppose to be smart baseball minds. What are they being paid to do other than watch games and enjoy food and drinks while sitting in luxury seating?
This team has serious problems that have not reached the surface, but will soon be upon us. Look at the names on the team today. How many changes have been made since ST. Pastronicky had no business on the roster, but Fredi and Frank (two of the three stooges) couldn’t reckonize he wasn’t ready for Major League play. JHEY is still not playing up to his potential….Chipper (God Bless his soul) is being called on to perform above his abilities of today.
I am only glad I didn’t purchase season tickets this year!!!!!!
jim
June 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
Comparison of the three top (now) Braves starters
Name W L ERA G IP H ER HR BB K AVE WHIP IP/Start
Hanson 8 4 3.54 15 86.1 82 34 14 35 74 .253 1.36 5.74
Hudson 5 3 3.80 10 65.0 59 28 2 20 44 .242 1.22 6.50
Delgado 4 7 4.12 13 74.1 62 34 6 37 60 .230 1.33 5.70
*if we knock off 2 innings when Delgado gave up 5 runs against TB and 3 of 4 runs against Cinn. where he and Medlen gave up grand slams, his ERA would be about 3.2
What do these figures show?
1) Delgado needs to limit the number of walks
2) ERA can be greatly inflated by a couple of bad starts or a couple of bad innings
3) Delgado has been as good or better than Hanson in most of the categories, but has almost the inverse record.
4) Hanson does not have the stuff he came into the league with, but still knows how to win (40-24 lifetime record)
5) Hudson is the only starter going as much as 6 innings per start.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:56 pm
@JohnA You are correct except your ststement about Chipper. Chipper is doing Absolutely nothing except live in glory. That is all he wants. BTW I burned up my season tickets and am not going to spend another dime on this little league team. I do not care about watching the BOSS get his glory.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:59 pm
@ jim No trade lets go with what we got. Thers nothing better out there to risk prospects.
jim
June 21st, 2012
2:04 pm
John A,
You pick a very bad day or week to post that J HEY is not performing up to his potential.
You also assume that injuries to Braves pitchers are statistically higher than to other MLB staffs, and seem to think that McDowell is doing something to get our pitchers injured at this greater rate. What?
Is his throwing regimen much different from anyone else’s? Do you have any basis to make that assessment? Do MLB pitching coaches completely overhaul the mechanics of major league pitchers? Do you know what a major league pitching coach actually does and have a reason to suggest that McDowell is doing it poorly?
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
Tommy John surgery is necessitated by stress caused on the elbow from poor pitching mechanics and overuse. The MLB average (according to espn) is 1 in 7 pitchers (14%). 58% of our CURRENT pitching staff has needed the procedure which doesn’t include Hanson’s shoulder surgery from poor mechanics and JJ’s mechanics problems. It is a pitching coaches job to identify problems with mechanics and manage the number of pitches a pitcher throws. Our bullpen completely burned out last season. This never happened under Mazzone and there were far fewer injuries. The only reason no one has picked him up is due to the fact he has retired and moved on to radio. it’s certainly an issue that needs to be examined.
Ken
June 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
Don @ 9:23 a.m. I think your comments are spot on. I would like to see Leo come back. Fredi G. is not the great manager everyone thought. In my opinion, I would like to see Leo back, Fredi gone, T.P should have been fired years ago. I think Chipper might be a good hitting coach, maybe. As for manager, someone who actually knows the game, plays every game to win….isn’t afraid to get ejected! That’s bout all I have to say. Thanks.
mpimentel
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
Huddy, hanson, minor, delgado, jjj it’s more than a good starting rotation…keep medlen in the bullpen…and if somebody need a rest, or if someone get hurts, then call up tejheran…we don’t have to trade a group of prospect for any rental picther …if any trade have to be made do it for for an outfielder who can bat fron the rigth side of the plate
jim
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
I am not a big fan of mid season trades, and gambles to win now and pay later (Tex, Drew). The Braves are not a big payroll club and need to win by building up internally and trading declining vets for prospects and emerging players (like Tampa Bay). The top priority with the money that becomes available this winter should be locking up or ensuring that money will be available later for our core guys (Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel), keeping Prado, trying to keep Bourn, and then strengthening the bench and bullpen. (I would rather have 6 younger cheaper players with talent over the next couple of years than 3 older, fading players — McCann, Hudson, Uggla)
richy
June 21st, 2012
2:20 pm
True, we will need a bat next year. Still would like to see us get a reasonably priced arm just to help fill out rotation. Best move may be to get a solid bullpen arm and move Medlen to rotation. Have to have someone to take his spot.
richy
June 21st, 2012
2:22 pm
JJ is NOT the answer.
Homer Atlanta Braves
June 21st, 2012
2:30 pm
DOP, you can leave this story up for a few days but we ask you to be cautious about trying to “break” stories or rush to print on anything else. When we want you to pull a column again we’ll let you know. Fondly, Homer
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
2:33 pm
@richy In order to do that you will have to give up guys like Behancourt or Galvis or Gilmartin. Good luck in the future. JJ is ok if McDowell is smart enough to help him with his mechanics. You would rather throw away the future and go with pitchers that might or might not do any good. Good luck with that. That is so stupid that our dumb management might do it. When are you going to realize that we will not win this year because we still have the BOSS gettintg his glory trip.JJ is the answer until they find a bat.
jim
June 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
Our bullpen didn’t burn out under Mazzone because our starters — Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, Neagle, Millwood — went deep into games. Actually the bullpen did suffer arm injuries under Mazone — Stanton, Berraguer, Borbon, Jr., Wohlers, McGlinchey, Spoonybarger.
Conventional wisdom is that the bullpen declined in September because of over use. But EOF was used heavily and maintained a sub 1.0 ERA. Venters decline in September may have had as much to do with the league catching up to him and not swinging at the sinker in the dirt as frequently as they did earlier in the season. He is not at all a control pitcher and needs to get hitters to swing at pitches out of the zone. Kimbrel was not as effective in September, but the two biggest blown saves against the Cardinals and Phillies were the result of control issues. Walking 2 men with 2 outs in front of Pujols, and walks in the game against Philly. He may have succumbed to overwork or to rookie nerves in September. It’s easier to blame Fredi for overworking the pen than the other conclusion that they just didn’t get it done in the pressure situations.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
jim you are right. Build around our youth. We don’t need anybody elses broken down players. We got one of our own.
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
2:58 pm
when did stanton or borbon get injured? Spooneybarger wasn’t injured until after he was traded.
the big three threw more innings (and extra-inning games) than any other bullpen in the bigs.
bobby
June 21st, 2012
3:06 pm
Is there anyone else other then Garza or Dempster on the Braves radar like Wandy Rodriguez or maybe adding another lefty to the pitching rotation like Liriano or a bigger fish King Felix?
Lukewarm Stove: Brandon Beachy Having Tommy John Surgery, Braves Seeking a Starter | Bleacher Nation | Chicago Cubs News, Rumors, and Commentary
June 21st, 2012
3:09 pm
[...] according to David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the Braves are taking a long look at both Dempster and Garza. We heard earlier in the week that [...]
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
3:10 pm
@bobby The only other one I heard was Jason Vargas. Not worth it. Go with what we got.
mpimentel
June 21st, 2012
3:27 pm
Don’t waste any top prospect for either dempster or garza…
jim
June 21st, 2012
3:28 pm
Stanton was injured soon after he was called up in 1989-90. Borbon was injured in 1996 after his emergence in the 1995 WS. Spoonybarger went down IMMEDIATELY after he left the Braves (as did David Nied).
David O'Brien
June 21st, 2012
4:02 pm
ACE, making painfully unfunny comments on an hourly basis. Keep going, sir. You can do it.
jim
June 21st, 2012
4:07 pm
The big 3 pitched more innings than any other bullpen. True, but is all of that on Fredi (and any of it on McDowell)? The rest of the bullpen consisted of Sherrill, Martinez, Linebrink, Proctor, and later Varvar, Gearrin, and Vizcaino. The Braves needed more bullpen innings than other teams because of a lot of extra-innings and tight, low-scoring games, and too many short-inning outings from the starters. Who else in that cast of characters could be trusted with critical innings? The big three was over used, but that didn’t affect EOF. Venters’ struggles may have had as much to do with the league taking a better approach to him than fatigue.
jim
June 21st, 2012
4:19 pm
I didn’t read through all the comments on the previous blog about Chipper’s return from the DL. Did anyone else see the contradiction between his assertion that he did not need to go on a rehab assignment before coming off the DL and his admission now that his timing both at the bat and in he field are off. Wouldn’t it be better if he had gone to the rehab stint more willingly and stayed there until his timing issues were resolved.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
4:24 pm
He should have went to the house and stayed there.
RWill2073
June 21st, 2012
4:41 pm
Just a huge LOL at win-loss records being an indicator of a good pitcher. Ever look at Bert Blyleven’s record? Fergie Jenkins? How about Robin Roberts, Nolan Ryan, Phil Niekro, Don Drysdale, Gaylord Perry… All pitchers who either lost over 200 games or had a winning percentage that wasn’t too much over .500. Yet they’re all considered great pitchers. I wonder why? Whats Matt Cain’s and Tim Lincecum’s career records? Think they’re any good? There are some really dumb arguments made in these blogs.
Who was it that said as far back as last year that Beachy would need TJ someday? Oh yeah, I did…
You guys still want to blame Mcdowell? Anyone think the Nationals’ and Giants’ pitching coaches should be fired? Plenty of big time pitchers on those two teams having arm troubles… Lincecum is going through arm troubles now, and eventually will miss significant time (won’t predict TJ surgery for him yet). Matt Cain will need TJ surgery in the near future. Strasburg, Zimmerman and Gonzalez from the Nats will all have more arm troubles soon. Do their pitching coaches need to be fired?
Beachy’s arm trouble was entirely predictable. I called it. Same with Medlen, Vizcaino, Hanson… It happens when you’ve had bad mechanics for years. Yes, even before McDowell knew them. Venters and Kimbrell both have bad mechanics and are at risk for arm troubles, but being a reliever helps to avoid it somewhat, since it’s less wear and tear on the arm. We’ll probably see Hanson have more shoulder trouble in the next year or two, either Kimbrell, Venters or Medlen will have more arm trouble, as well as Cain, Lincecum, Gio Gonzalez, Strasburg, Jordan Zimmerman, Cole Hammels, Yu Darvish, Phil Hughes and Chris Sale are all starters that will have arm troubles soon. There are many more of course, but these are some big names that are entirely predictable.
Andrelton Simmons
June 21st, 2012
4:51 pm
DOB – You don’t think Frank Wren would trade Teheran, Delgado, or Vizciano in a package for Dempster or Garza do you??
I really hope not it would be an idiotic move to mortgage the future of the team by trading one of your potential aces or 2/3 starters for the next 7 or so seasons to bring in a guy like Dempter for half the year or a guy like Garza for a season and a half. Garza is likely a guy that will barely be a SUB 4.00 ERA pitcher for the rest of his career.
Is it really worth packaging Teheran, Vizciano, or Delgado who could all be are top 3 pitchers in a few years for the next decade?? If Wren does this we can thank him years from now when the Braves aren’t nearly as good as they should’ve been because they had “Matt Garza” or “Ryan Dempster” for a year or so….
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
5:32 pm
jim-
I don’t dispute that Wren should have picked up another bullpen arm at the deadline last season or that the lineup didn’t exactly pull their weight or that Freddi and Wren may share blame, or that Mazzone had better owners. I find it alarming the number of pitchers in recent seasons that go down to injury on the braves and was saying that the pitching coach is something that needs to be looked at. 7 pitchers needing TJ surgery in the last 2-3 years is a staggering figure for one team and not remotely sustainable
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
5:35 pm
RWill2073
the nationals pitching coach or manager should absolutely be fired for rushing Strasburg into the bigs to sell tickets. they also haven’t fixed his mechanics which could see his career end far too soon
RWill
June 21st, 2012
6:04 pm
@what of it: That’s fine, and I don’t necessarily disagree with you. At least you are consistent. I get the feeling most of the so called “fans” on here wouldn’t agree about the Nationals pitching coach tho. Or most of the “expert analysts” who think he’s a good pitching coach.
To me though, I’d be more concerned with a front office that relies on scouts that recommend these pitchers with poor mechanics. The Nationals seem to have an affinity for pitchers with similar mechanics- mechanics that lead to arm troubles. Maybe the Braves do as well. I have noticed they have a high percentage of pitchers that do one thing similar to Hanson, and that is raise their pitching side elbow higher than their pitching side shoulder, which puts more stress on the shoulder. For an example, look at Chris Young of the Padres and Mets, and look at his career. I noticed a little of it in Teheran unfortunately.
It’s more a scouting/front office issue than a coaching issue, though. And if the Braves ever were close to making a deadline deal last year, they absolutely should have included Arodys Vizcaino to make a deal happen. Looking at their top 20 prospects, I have no doubt that J.R. Graham, Carlos Perez, Navery Moore and Billy Bullock will have arm troubles in the next few years, if they haven’t already. Use these guys along with Vizcaino as trade bait. Unless you’re okay with injury prone pitchers, or are going to only use these guys out of the bullpen.
mpimentel
June 21st, 2012
6:14 pm
Bring a bat , forget the idea of make a trade dealing some prospects for a rental pitcher…
ACE
June 21st, 2012
6:17 pm
DOB, Not trying to be funny, just wondering if anyone is going to question the captain when the ship is going down.
ACE
June 21st, 2012
6:48 pm
You have to admit that the thought of You and Fredi riding your Harleys around Turner Field while the ship is sinking is like Nero playind the fiddle while everything burned around him.
BravesfaninWis
June 21st, 2012
9:27 pm
I’m the idiot? So most of you would rather have 6-7 more losses for your team in a year to be able to claim that a pitcher on your team has a 2.00 era? I’m the idiot? As we all saw last season, just 1 simple victory could mean if your team makes the playoffs or not.
Sorry, but just because a pitcher has a 2.00 era at the All Star break, doesn’t mean he will be there at seasons end. I would rather have Hanson, Hudson, and Beachy all have era’s over 3.00 and each have 15 or more wins then all of them being at a 2.00 era and having 10-12 wins.
If you morons would have read my post, I said it sucks that he is injured. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and my opinion is that Beachy is very much capable of being a very good pitcher, but he is not a lights out dominant pitcher like a Roy Halladay who could win any given night with very little run support because he could shut down the opposing team completely. So if you are blinded by that, that’s on you idiots, and not me.
NickB
June 21st, 2012
10:43 pm
Bravesfanwisc
I don’t think you get it: win loss record for a pitcher doesn’t matter. Games won by the team during their individual starts matter, but if a pitcher gives up 2 or less in 25 starts and gets only 4 or 5 wins out of it, it’s not his fault his team can’t hit. he pitched as well as he could (see King Felix and his Cy Young award in 2010 for an example of this).
Pitchers can’t make the team hit. All they have control over is limiting walks and hits to the best of their ability.
saying pitcher A is better cuz he had an era of 4.50 and a record of 19-12 over pitcher B who had an era of 2.50 and a record of 12-14 is just crazy talk.
NickB
June 21st, 2012
10:47 pm
Beachy gave up the following earned runs in his starts this year
1,0,0,2,2,2,1,0,0,4,1,2,2,1
that’s pretty damn dominant
record 5-5 (not his fault)
halladay this year
0,1,2,2,3,8,2,2,3,5,4
record 4-5 not really his fault either
RWill
June 21st, 2012
11:31 pm
@BravesfaninWisc: To quote a decent president, “there you go again”…. You can’t help yourself with dumb statements can you? By your logic, you’d rather have Bernie Williams than Hank Aaron. Sure, Hank Aaron put up the far superior numbers, but Bernie Williams won championships. Bernie Williams was a winner. Hank Aaron didn’t win. Also by your logic, Andy Pettite is far and away better than Nolan Ryan. After all, Pettite’s career winning percentage is .634 compared to Ryan’s weak .526. Are you prepared to back up your statements by saying Pettitte is a better pitcher than Nolan Ryan? Win-loss record is just asinine to use to determine how good a pitcher is. What can pitchers control more? Their record or their ERA? Are you willing to say Matt Cain is a mediocre pitcher because of his record? Please tell me you’re not this slow…
MLB Trade Rumors: Orioles-Cubs Trade Could Send Shockwaves Through AL East | :: Sparxxrx LLC ::
June 22nd, 2012
7:32 am
[...] Atlanta Braves are also looking for a guy like Garza in the wake of Brandon Beachy’s season-ending Tommy John [...]
Tyler Wilson
June 27th, 2012
1:47 am
Jurrjens will get the job done. He’s a very good pitcher. He just had a rough start to tho season, a he performed well above what his triple-a stats show. I suggest we worry a little more about our young pitchers in Mike Minor and Randall Delgado, and let’s keep them healthy and they will become great pitchers. The loss of Beachy is a big blow, but It won’t phase us if JJ performs half as good as he did in his returning start. Our offense is firing up quick too