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172 comments Add your comment
Tumbledown
June 21st, 2012
11:15 am
McDowell is to blame for everything. After all, wasn’t he the second spitter in that one Seinfeld episode?
Wins and losses? Puhleeze
June 21st, 2012
11:16 am
Maddux would have had 25-50 more wins had the Bravos ever scored more than 3 runs for him.
Cliff Lee, minuscule ERA, and yet to win a game. If you team doesn’t score runs, and your pitcher
gives up one run, your team loses. Is that the pitchers’ fault?
Go back to the Velveeta, plz!
bart
June 21st, 2012
11:19 am
It might be a shorter list to name the Braves pictures who haven’t had surgery.
DOB – How do the braves compare to other pitching staffs as far as injuries go. We seem to have a pretty high rate.
buzzer
June 21st, 2012
11:20 am
Jeez Brandon,
So sorry to hear of your injury. It will be rough but I know you will show the same drive and determination to get back to the Bigs again. You have truly been our best pitcher this year and you will be again. God bless and get well soon.
Braves fans waiting for your return!!
Tumbledown
June 21st, 2012
11:24 am
I wonder how McDowell caused the arm injuries of such pitchers as Mark Prior, Strasburg, Adam Wainwright, Joe Nathan, and countless others throughout MLB over the last ten years. Surely, McDowell (and perhaps Fredi) is the root cause.
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
11:26 am
“The W-L record had more significance prior to roughly 1980 than it does today.”
Again, I disagree. It provides the exact same information about pitching performance it always did, because it is computed the exact same way. What is tells us now (generally, looking over the universe of W-L records) is fewer pitchers are starting 38-40 games a year, fewer pitchers are completing or going deep into games, and long relief is disappearing. When you see all the Cy Young candidates with 19-21 wins you can divine without much effort these guys aren’t starting 40 games and pitching 270-300+ innings. When you see many more relievers in the list and fewer relievers with 15 or so decisions you know the deployment of relief pitching is not the same as it was 30 years ago. It tells me, without looking deeper, Tim Hudson was the Braves most reliable starter last season, JJ was very effective (when he pitched), and D. Lowe was a candidate to be paid NOT to pitch.
jim
June 21st, 2012
11:36 am
Usually good W-L records and low ERAs over an extended span correlate very well. Maddux (and many other good pitchers) would have won more games than they did if their team only scored a few more runs. But they DID have very good W-L records anyway. Cliff Lee this year is a good example of a pitcher pitching just well enough to lose the close games. Lee himself went into the late innings of a number of his starts with a lead only to give it up. He has not had the mental toughness to be better than the other guy in most of his starts this year. Beachy would have a better record than he does if the team had scored more runns behind him, but the other guy’s team wasn’t scoring much either. In several of his losses or no decisions (not counting the last one) he could not finish off an inning and the bullpen gave up the tying or go-ahead run. You can attribute that to bad luck, but the guy with the good W-L record is usually the one that does more often than not get the final out or hold on to a 1-0 lead and not lose 2-1. I’m not knocking Beachy, but saying that ERA and W-L record must be taken together for a pitcher on an above .500 team.
BravesFan
June 21st, 2012
11:42 am
@DawgDad – your argument is only somewhat valid. But what do you say about the pitcher who doesnt get any run support? It is his fault the team loses and he gets the L? He cant control the number of runs his team gives him. Thus, a pitchers W-L record shouldnt be an indicator of how good he is pitching.
Lets revert back to the original comment that started this … “I would much rather have a guy who is 14-7 with a 4.00 ERA then a guy who is 5-5 with a 2.00 ERA”.
that to me is just a dumb assessment. Go back to last year and look at Tim Lincecum, Matt Cain, Jordan Zimmerman, Hiroki Kuroda, Doug Fister, Madison Bumgarner, R.A. Dickey. All good pitchers with sub 3.28 ERA and also having losing records (except Cain, he was 13-12).
john
June 21st, 2012
11:44 am
Beachy you are going to be an outstanding Brave Ace for many years-good luck in 2013
Now Mike Minor STEP UP- Medlin will be fine-Delgaudo will get better unless used too much.-Chipper and Ugl give tgis Kid some more encouragement when he is on Mound…..
Wren STEP UP-need one good Starter and one good mddle relief pitcher as looks like Moylan not ready– no more “cheapies ” -SPEND SOME $$$$$$$-Trade Jurgens and Pastornicky ? -What about Bourn as he not coming back in 2013 ? Brave Fans will come out if Management looks like it BELIEVES
Freddie-Rest Brian more,he looks tired, also, Team CAN WIN without Chipper ,especially if he is having personal problems-look at his At Bats since coming off DL
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
11:48 am
I guess to try to be more clear, the significance of the W-L record hasn’t changed, the significance of the PITCHING it is measuring has changed. A 20-game winner is still a 20-game winner, and a 15-game winner is still a 15-game winner. What’s changed is the underlying significance of the individual pitcher; starters in general are not as significant as they were 30 years ago, simply because they pitch fewer innings, and the W-L stat reflects this.
PMC
June 21st, 2012
11:57 am
This is freaking awful news, for Beachy, the Braves and Braves fans. At the very least we’re looking at over a year of him not being here and he’s one of the best young pitchers in baseball. Run support will help your individual record, ERA’s that low mean the team you play for has a chance to win every night even if you get an ND.
I hope you come back better than ever eventually Mr. Beachy, but it won’t fill the void of not having you in the order every 5th day.
jim
June 21st, 2012
11:57 am
There aren’t many pitchers who are 14 – 7 with an ERA of 4.00. If someone were in that category, it would probably mean that he had a couple of really terrible outings, but if those games were subtracted, the ERA would be below 3.00 for all the other starts. Neither ERA nor W-L record (or even WHIP) tells the whole story of a pitcher’s year-to-year effectiveness, but over a longer span they usually correlate very well for the best pitchers.
PMC
June 21st, 2012
12:00 pm
I’m certainly hoping internal options fill the need though rather than spending a ton for another top of the order starter.
DawgDad
June 21st, 2012
12:03 pm
“Lets revert back to the original comment that started this … “I would much rather have a guy who is 14-7 with a 4.00 ERA then a guy who is 5-5 with a 2.00 ERA”. ”
To understand why the poster believes this you need to cast yourself forward into September, when the 14-7 guy is still pitching and the 5-5 guy is not. Over the course of the whole year the 14-7 4.00 guy likely contributed more to the team’s wins than the 5-5 guy who pitched less than 3 months. And actually, the W-L record reflects this. It’s quite a different point to make that the 5-5 guy might be a better pitcher on any specific day while he’s healthy.
There are always exceptions when you look at an individual pitcher for one season, because of run support and all the other “team” factors. But when you start looking at large samples or a pitcher over time W-L record does say a lot about your typical starter, even one with a losing record.
bgvt
June 21st, 2012
12:04 pm
I can’t resist piling on the W-L vs. ERA debate, but I didn’t see anyone mention an excellent case in point as to why W-L can be really cruel to a pitcher: Beachy got an “L” in his last start. I can’t resist saying that the L added insult to injury. He was perfect through 11 batters, walked one batter and came out with an injury. The relief pitching stunk and allowed the inherited runner (thanks Varvaro!). The Braves never regained a tie (in fact, they never even scored) so Beachy was saddled with the L. Was Beachy pitching well? Yep. Did he get an L? Yep. (Granted, his ERA went up when he was charged with 1 run in 3.2 innings).
bgvt
June 21st, 2012
12:09 pm
DawgDad — I think you are giving the original poster too much credit. I don’t think he was saying he wanted a pitcher who had more starts. Eventually, the post compared the same number of decisions with different ERAs. Your point about sample size is valid — and is exactly why Beachy’s 5-5 record really does not reflect how well he pitched this year. He had been on a great run. It is an open question, however, whether he would have continued to pitch as well all year had he not gotten hurt.
PMC
June 21st, 2012
12:12 pm
The 14-7 4.00 ERA guy might well be Derrick Lowe a couple of years ago.
jim
June 21st, 2012
12:18 pm
Matt Garza would probably cost the Braves 2 of the following — Julio Teheran, Christian Bethancourt, Evan Gattis, or Todd Cunningham — would that trade be worth it? Would the Braves be able to hang on to Garza past next year? Would Garza be enough for he team to make the playoffs this year or next?
If the answer to the last question is probably no, then there is no reason to make the trade. It is hard to get a read on this year’s team. One week they look like they are contenders, and the next week they look like a sub .500 team. One more month might indicate just which version of the Braves we will get, and then the rationale for a trade like this can be better understood.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
12:24 pm
30 years ago was 1982. The stats on 4 of the top NL pitchers that season.
Pitcher – - – W – L – Innings – ERA – CGs
Carlton – - -23 – 11 –295 — 3.10 – - 19
Rogers – - -19 – 8 — 277 — 2.40 – - 14
Valenzuela – 19 – 13 – 285 –2.87 – - 18
Andujar —- 15 – 10 – 265 — 2.47 – - 9
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
12:30 pm
The stats on 4 of the top NL pitchers last year. (in order of innings pitched)
Pitcher – – – W – L – Innings – ERA – CGs
Carpenter — 11 – 9 — 237 — 3.45 – - 4
Halladay — 19 – 6 —- 223 — 2.35 — 8
Kershaw — 21 – 5 —-233 —- 2.25 — 5
Lee ——— 17 – 8 —– 232 — 2.40 — 6
That is 30 to 60 fewer innings than the 1982 list
Brave New World
June 21st, 2012
12:31 pm
Good luck and a speedy recovery, Brandon.
Delbert D.
June 21st, 2012
12:33 pm
Ian Kennedy last season was 21-4, 2.85 ERA, 222 innings and 1 CG
NL Cy Young Award Rankings: R.A. Dickey Charges over Matt Cain for Top Spot | :: Sparxxrx LLC ::
June 21st, 2012
12:39 pm
[...] this is the last time we’ll see Beachy mentioned here. His season is over after tearing a ligament in his right elbow, an injury that will require Tommy John surgery. [...]
Bob Gibson
June 21st, 2012
12:45 pm
When I pitched, I owned the plate. If the batter stood close to or tried to lean over the plate, I’d throw at his head. If he didn’t back way up in the batter’s box, then on the next pitch I’d throw at his knees.
Mad31Dog
June 21st, 2012
1:05 pm
Are we really debating the relevance of the “W-L” stat? I thought it was too obvious for anyone to argue for it. I’m just glad that the writers quit handing out Cy Young awards based on W-L records.
richy
June 21st, 2012
1:07 pm
Your delusional if you think this team can contend without making a move for a proven starter. This staff is Hudson then everyone else. They need a solid guy to go behind hudson that will be consistent.
Tomahawk Chops: Daily Atlanta Braves News Clippings For Thursday, June 21st | MLB.Fans-Talk.com
June 21st, 2012
1:09 pm
[...] Braves’ Beachy to have season-ending elbow surgery | Atlanta Braves“It’s tough,” Braves general manager Frank Wren said. “He was pitching well, really doing everything you could ask. Growing as a pitcher, growing in stature as a guy that you could really expect to shut the other team down. So it’s tough. Tough to lose him, and obviously tough for him.” [...]
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:11 pm
@richy And you really think that Dempster or Garza is the answer? HA HA
richy
June 21st, 2012
1:12 pm
No saying those guys are but they would be better than what we have thats for sure.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:18 pm
Are you sure? You are kiddig. No way do you risk good prospects for someone eles problem. You got better in house pitching. In the off season they would not trade them for a bat. So don’t trade them now. Ask the BOSS what he wants to do.
richy
June 21st, 2012
1:22 pm
So in the playoffs, if we make it, you would roll with Hudson, Hanson and Minor as your top three?? No one is saying the braves would have to give up the house to get a guy to help out. And who is this in house pitching you speak of? Medlen cant start. Our bullpen is already in shambles. Is Tehran ready to take on the load of a major league starter? Minor is a joke. Too inconsistent. JJ from last year isnt walking through the door either.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:37 pm
Hanson JJ Teheran, Redmond, Delgado, Were all untradeable before when we needed a bat. If they are not tradeable then, They are not tradeable now. Garza, Dempster, Vargas are BNOT as good as you already have in house. Go this way. Hudson, Hanson Delgado, Teheran,Medlin, and Redmond. Management not that smart. They will trade away a lot of promising prospects to get a worthless pitcher. Remember the Teixeira deal? Thats how dumb they are. You can win with what you got if you send the BOSS to the house and give us Constanza. Until then forget everything until he finishes his glory trip.
ACE
June 21st, 2012
1:42 pm
DOB, I expected to see you and Fredi join Mr. Kimbrel when he was riding his Harley around Turner Field Sunday. After the game would have been a good time to ask Fredi why he caused Delgado to balk.
John A.
June 21st, 2012
1:49 pm
I for one would like to know what the hell is going on with the Braves pitchers? We are having more than our share of TJ surgeries. It’s about time to start looking at the pitching coach and figure out what he’s doing. With the talent we have there is no reason for these pitching (physical) problems. They (pitchers) must be something that is being taught at the major league level. If that isn’t the case, why do these problems surface after they get to the big club? Tommy Hanson is an example of what i’m referring to…..why didn’t his problems surface in the minors? Are we as fans the only persons to reckonize he had delivery issues? I thought Frank and Fredi,along with Roger were suppose to be smart baseball minds. What are they being paid to do other than watch games and enjoy food and drinks while sitting in luxury seating?
This team has serious problems that have not reached the surface, but will soon be upon us. Look at the names on the team today. How many changes have been made since ST. Pastronicky had no business on the roster, but Fredi and Frank (two of the three stooges) couldn’t reckonize he wasn’t ready for Major League play. JHEY is still not playing up to his potential….Chipper (God Bless his soul) is being called on to perform above his abilities of today.
I am only glad I didn’t purchase season tickets this year!!!!!!
jim
June 21st, 2012
1:52 pm
Comparison of the three top (now) Braves starters
Name W L ERA G IP H ER HR BB K AVE WHIP IP/Start
Hanson 8 4 3.54 15 86.1 82 34 14 35 74 .253 1.36 5.74
Hudson 5 3 3.80 10 65.0 59 28 2 20 44 .242 1.22 6.50
Delgado 4 7 4.12 13 74.1 62 34 6 37 60 .230 1.33 5.70
*if we knock off 2 innings when Delgado gave up 5 runs against TB and 3 of 4 runs against Cinn. where he and Medlen gave up grand slams, his ERA would be about 3.2
What do these figures show?
1) Delgado needs to limit the number of walks
2) ERA can be greatly inflated by a couple of bad starts or a couple of bad innings
3) Delgado has been as good or better than Hanson in most of the categories, but has almost the inverse record.
4) Hanson does not have the stuff he came into the league with, but still knows how to win (40-24 lifetime record)
5) Hudson is the only starter going as much as 6 innings per start.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:56 pm
@JohnA You are correct except your ststement about Chipper. Chipper is doing Absolutely nothing except live in glory. That is all he wants. BTW I burned up my season tickets and am not going to spend another dime on this little league team. I do not care about watching the BOSS get his glory.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
1:59 pm
@ jim No trade lets go with what we got. Thers nothing better out there to risk prospects.
jim
June 21st, 2012
2:04 pm
John A,
You pick a very bad day or week to post that J HEY is not performing up to his potential.
You also assume that injuries to Braves pitchers are statistically higher than to other MLB staffs, and seem to think that McDowell is doing something to get our pitchers injured at this greater rate. What?
Is his throwing regimen much different from anyone else’s? Do you have any basis to make that assessment? Do MLB pitching coaches completely overhaul the mechanics of major league pitchers? Do you know what a major league pitching coach actually does and have a reason to suggest that McDowell is doing it poorly?
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
Tommy John surgery is necessitated by stress caused on the elbow from poor pitching mechanics and overuse. The MLB average (according to espn) is 1 in 7 pitchers (14%). 58% of our CURRENT pitching staff has needed the procedure which doesn’t include Hanson’s shoulder surgery from poor mechanics and JJ’s mechanics problems. It is a pitching coaches job to identify problems with mechanics and manage the number of pitches a pitcher throws. Our bullpen completely burned out last season. This never happened under Mazzone and there were far fewer injuries. The only reason no one has picked him up is due to the fact he has retired and moved on to radio. it’s certainly an issue that needs to be examined.
Ken
June 21st, 2012
2:09 pm
Don @ 9:23 a.m. I think your comments are spot on. I would like to see Leo come back. Fredi G. is not the great manager everyone thought. In my opinion, I would like to see Leo back, Fredi gone, T.P should have been fired years ago. I think Chipper might be a good hitting coach, maybe. As for manager, someone who actually knows the game, plays every game to win….isn’t afraid to get ejected! That’s bout all I have to say. Thanks.
mpimentel
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
Huddy, hanson, minor, delgado, jjj it’s more than a good starting rotation…keep medlen in the bullpen…and if somebody need a rest, or if someone get hurts, then call up tejheran…we don’t have to trade a group of prospect for any rental picther …if any trade have to be made do it for for an outfielder who can bat fron the rigth side of the plate
jim
June 21st, 2012
2:18 pm
I am not a big fan of mid season trades, and gambles to win now and pay later (Tex, Drew). The Braves are not a big payroll club and need to win by building up internally and trading declining vets for prospects and emerging players (like Tampa Bay). The top priority with the money that becomes available this winter should be locking up or ensuring that money will be available later for our core guys (Heyward, Freeman, Simmons, Kimbrel), keeping Prado, trying to keep Bourn, and then strengthening the bench and bullpen. (I would rather have 6 younger cheaper players with talent over the next couple of years than 3 older, fading players — McCann, Hudson, Uggla)
richy
June 21st, 2012
2:20 pm
True, we will need a bat next year. Still would like to see us get a reasonably priced arm just to help fill out rotation. Best move may be to get a solid bullpen arm and move Medlen to rotation. Have to have someone to take his spot.
richy
June 21st, 2012
2:22 pm
JJ is NOT the answer.
Homer Atlanta Braves
June 21st, 2012
2:30 pm
DOP, you can leave this story up for a few days but we ask you to be cautious about trying to “break” stories or rush to print on anything else. When we want you to pull a column again we’ll let you know. Fondly, Homer
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
2:33 pm
@richy In order to do that you will have to give up guys like Behancourt or Galvis or Gilmartin. Good luck in the future. JJ is ok if McDowell is smart enough to help him with his mechanics. You would rather throw away the future and go with pitchers that might or might not do any good. Good luck with that. That is so stupid that our dumb management might do it. When are you going to realize that we will not win this year because we still have the BOSS gettintg his glory trip.JJ is the answer until they find a bat.
jim
June 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
Our bullpen didn’t burn out under Mazzone because our starters — Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz, Avery, Neagle, Millwood — went deep into games. Actually the bullpen did suffer arm injuries under Mazone — Stanton, Berraguer, Borbon, Jr., Wohlers, McGlinchey, Spoonybarger.
Conventional wisdom is that the bullpen declined in September because of over use. But EOF was used heavily and maintained a sub 1.0 ERA. Venters decline in September may have had as much to do with the league catching up to him and not swinging at the sinker in the dirt as frequently as they did earlier in the season. He is not at all a control pitcher and needs to get hitters to swing at pitches out of the zone. Kimbrel was not as effective in September, but the two biggest blown saves against the Cardinals and Phillies were the result of control issues. Walking 2 men with 2 outs in front of Pujols, and walks in the game against Philly. He may have succumbed to overwork or to rookie nerves in September. It’s easier to blame Fredi for overworking the pen than the other conclusion that they just didn’t get it done in the pressure situations.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
2:36 pm
jim you are right. Build around our youth. We don’t need anybody elses broken down players. We got one of our own.
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
2:58 pm
when did stanton or borbon get injured? Spooneybarger wasn’t injured until after he was traded.
the big three threw more innings (and extra-inning games) than any other bullpen in the bigs.
bobby
June 21st, 2012
3:06 pm
Is there anyone else other then Garza or Dempster on the Braves radar like Wandy Rodriguez or maybe adding another lefty to the pitching rotation like Liriano or a bigger fish King Felix?
Lukewarm Stove: Brandon Beachy Having Tommy John Surgery, Braves Seeking a Starter | Bleacher Nation | Chicago Cubs News, Rumors, and Commentary
June 21st, 2012
3:09 pm
[...] according to David O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal Constitution, the Braves are taking a long look at both Dempster and Garza. We heard earlier in the week that [...]
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
3:10 pm
@bobby The only other one I heard was Jason Vargas. Not worth it. Go with what we got.
mpimentel
June 21st, 2012
3:27 pm
Don’t waste any top prospect for either dempster or garza…
jim
June 21st, 2012
3:28 pm
Stanton was injured soon after he was called up in 1989-90. Borbon was injured in 1996 after his emergence in the 1995 WS. Spoonybarger went down IMMEDIATELY after he left the Braves (as did David Nied).
David O'Brien
June 21st, 2012
4:02 pm
ACE, making painfully unfunny comments on an hourly basis. Keep going, sir. You can do it.
jim
June 21st, 2012
4:07 pm
The big 3 pitched more innings than any other bullpen. True, but is all of that on Fredi (and any of it on McDowell)? The rest of the bullpen consisted of Sherrill, Martinez, Linebrink, Proctor, and later Varvar, Gearrin, and Vizcaino. The Braves needed more bullpen innings than other teams because of a lot of extra-innings and tight, low-scoring games, and too many short-inning outings from the starters. Who else in that cast of characters could be trusted with critical innings? The big three was over used, but that didn’t affect EOF. Venters’ struggles may have had as much to do with the league taking a better approach to him than fatigue.
jim
June 21st, 2012
4:19 pm
I didn’t read through all the comments on the previous blog about Chipper’s return from the DL. Did anyone else see the contradiction between his assertion that he did not need to go on a rehab assignment before coming off the DL and his admission now that his timing both at the bat and in he field are off. Wouldn’t it be better if he had gone to the rehab stint more willingly and stayed there until his timing issues were resolved.
Whiskey River
June 21st, 2012
4:24 pm
He should have went to the house and stayed there.
RWill2073
June 21st, 2012
4:41 pm
Just a huge LOL at win-loss records being an indicator of a good pitcher. Ever look at Bert Blyleven’s record? Fergie Jenkins? How about Robin Roberts, Nolan Ryan, Phil Niekro, Don Drysdale, Gaylord Perry… All pitchers who either lost over 200 games or had a winning percentage that wasn’t too much over .500. Yet they’re all considered great pitchers. I wonder why? Whats Matt Cain’s and Tim Lincecum’s career records? Think they’re any good? There are some really dumb arguments made in these blogs.
Who was it that said as far back as last year that Beachy would need TJ someday? Oh yeah, I did…
You guys still want to blame Mcdowell? Anyone think the Nationals’ and Giants’ pitching coaches should be fired? Plenty of big time pitchers on those two teams having arm troubles… Lincecum is going through arm troubles now, and eventually will miss significant time (won’t predict TJ surgery for him yet). Matt Cain will need TJ surgery in the near future. Strasburg, Zimmerman and Gonzalez from the Nats will all have more arm troubles soon. Do their pitching coaches need to be fired?
Beachy’s arm trouble was entirely predictable. I called it. Same with Medlen, Vizcaino, Hanson… It happens when you’ve had bad mechanics for years. Yes, even before McDowell knew them. Venters and Kimbrell both have bad mechanics and are at risk for arm troubles, but being a reliever helps to avoid it somewhat, since it’s less wear and tear on the arm. We’ll probably see Hanson have more shoulder trouble in the next year or two, either Kimbrell, Venters or Medlen will have more arm trouble, as well as Cain, Lincecum, Gio Gonzalez, Strasburg, Jordan Zimmerman, Cole Hammels, Yu Darvish, Phil Hughes and Chris Sale are all starters that will have arm troubles soon. There are many more of course, but these are some big names that are entirely predictable.
Andrelton Simmons
June 21st, 2012
4:51 pm
DOB – You don’t think Frank Wren would trade Teheran, Delgado, or Vizciano in a package for Dempster or Garza do you??
I really hope not it would be an idiotic move to mortgage the future of the team by trading one of your potential aces or 2/3 starters for the next 7 or so seasons to bring in a guy like Dempter for half the year or a guy like Garza for a season and a half. Garza is likely a guy that will barely be a SUB 4.00 ERA pitcher for the rest of his career.
Is it really worth packaging Teheran, Vizciano, or Delgado who could all be are top 3 pitchers in a few years for the next decade?? If Wren does this we can thank him years from now when the Braves aren’t nearly as good as they should’ve been because they had “Matt Garza” or “Ryan Dempster” for a year or so….
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
5:32 pm
jim-
I don’t dispute that Wren should have picked up another bullpen arm at the deadline last season or that the lineup didn’t exactly pull their weight or that Freddi and Wren may share blame, or that Mazzone had better owners. I find it alarming the number of pitchers in recent seasons that go down to injury on the braves and was saying that the pitching coach is something that needs to be looked at. 7 pitchers needing TJ surgery in the last 2-3 years is a staggering figure for one team and not remotely sustainable
what of it?
June 21st, 2012
5:35 pm
RWill2073
the nationals pitching coach or manager should absolutely be fired for rushing Strasburg into the bigs to sell tickets. they also haven’t fixed his mechanics which could see his career end far too soon
RWill
June 21st, 2012
6:04 pm
@what of it: That’s fine, and I don’t necessarily disagree with you. At least you are consistent. I get the feeling most of the so called “fans” on here wouldn’t agree about the Nationals pitching coach tho. Or most of the “expert analysts” who think he’s a good pitching coach.
To me though, I’d be more concerned with a front office that relies on scouts that recommend these pitchers with poor mechanics. The Nationals seem to have an affinity for pitchers with similar mechanics- mechanics that lead to arm troubles. Maybe the Braves do as well. I have noticed they have a high percentage of pitchers that do one thing similar to Hanson, and that is raise their pitching side elbow higher than their pitching side shoulder, which puts more stress on the shoulder. For an example, look at Chris Young of the Padres and Mets, and look at his career. I noticed a little of it in Teheran unfortunately.
It’s more a scouting/front office issue than a coaching issue, though. And if the Braves ever were close to making a deadline deal last year, they absolutely should have included Arodys Vizcaino to make a deal happen. Looking at their top 20 prospects, I have no doubt that J.R. Graham, Carlos Perez, Navery Moore and Billy Bullock will have arm troubles in the next few years, if they haven’t already. Use these guys along with Vizcaino as trade bait. Unless you’re okay with injury prone pitchers, or are going to only use these guys out of the bullpen.
mpimentel
June 21st, 2012
6:14 pm
Bring a bat , forget the idea of make a trade dealing some prospects for a rental pitcher…
ACE
June 21st, 2012
6:17 pm
DOB, Not trying to be funny, just wondering if anyone is going to question the captain when the ship is going down.
ACE
June 21st, 2012
6:48 pm
You have to admit that the thought of You and Fredi riding your Harleys around Turner Field while the ship is sinking is like Nero playind the fiddle while everything burned around him.
BravesfaninWis
June 21st, 2012
9:27 pm
I’m the idiot? So most of you would rather have 6-7 more losses for your team in a year to be able to claim that a pitcher on your team has a 2.00 era? I’m the idiot? As we all saw last season, just 1 simple victory could mean if your team makes the playoffs or not.
Sorry, but just because a pitcher has a 2.00 era at the All Star break, doesn’t mean he will be there at seasons end. I would rather have Hanson, Hudson, and Beachy all have era’s over 3.00 and each have 15 or more wins then all of them being at a 2.00 era and having 10-12 wins.
If you morons would have read my post, I said it sucks that he is injured. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and my opinion is that Beachy is very much capable of being a very good pitcher, but he is not a lights out dominant pitcher like a Roy Halladay who could win any given night with very little run support because he could shut down the opposing team completely. So if you are blinded by that, that’s on you idiots, and not me.
NickB
June 21st, 2012
10:43 pm
Bravesfanwisc
I don’t think you get it: win loss record for a pitcher doesn’t matter. Games won by the team during their individual starts matter, but if a pitcher gives up 2 or less in 25 starts and gets only 4 or 5 wins out of it, it’s not his fault his team can’t hit. he pitched as well as he could (see King Felix and his Cy Young award in 2010 for an example of this).
Pitchers can’t make the team hit. All they have control over is limiting walks and hits to the best of their ability.
saying pitcher A is better cuz he had an era of 4.50 and a record of 19-12 over pitcher B who had an era of 2.50 and a record of 12-14 is just crazy talk.
NickB
June 21st, 2012
10:47 pm
Beachy gave up the following earned runs in his starts this year
1,0,0,2,2,2,1,0,0,4,1,2,2,1
that’s pretty damn dominant
record 5-5 (not his fault)
halladay this year
0,1,2,2,3,8,2,2,3,5,4
record 4-5 not really his fault either
RWill
June 21st, 2012
11:31 pm
@BravesfaninWisc: To quote a decent president, “there you go again”…. You can’t help yourself with dumb statements can you? By your logic, you’d rather have Bernie Williams than Hank Aaron. Sure, Hank Aaron put up the far superior numbers, but Bernie Williams won championships. Bernie Williams was a winner. Hank Aaron didn’t win. Also by your logic, Andy Pettite is far and away better than Nolan Ryan. After all, Pettite’s career winning percentage is .634 compared to Ryan’s weak .526. Are you prepared to back up your statements by saying Pettitte is a better pitcher than Nolan Ryan? Win-loss record is just asinine to use to determine how good a pitcher is. What can pitchers control more? Their record or their ERA? Are you willing to say Matt Cain is a mediocre pitcher because of his record? Please tell me you’re not this slow…
MLB Trade Rumors: Orioles-Cubs Trade Could Send Shockwaves Through AL East | :: Sparxxrx LLC ::
June 22nd, 2012
7:32 am
[...] Atlanta Braves are also looking for a guy like Garza in the wake of Brandon Beachy’s season-ending Tommy John [...]
Tyler Wilson
June 27th, 2012
1:47 am
Jurrjens will get the job done. He’s a very good pitcher. He just had a rough start to tho season, a he performed well above what his triple-a stats show. I suggest we worry a little more about our young pitchers in Mike Minor and Randall Delgado, and let’s keep them healthy and they will become great pitchers. The loss of Beachy is a big blow, but It won’t phase us if JJ performs half as good as he did in his returning start. Our offense is firing up quick too