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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
2,127 comments Add your comment
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:15 pm
Hmm… Freeman is in his second year at the major league level and finished second in the ROY voting last season. He’s had a problem with his eyes and hand in the early going. Be that as it may, Freeman has shown a pattern of slower starts, a pick up toward mid season, and pretty good finishes (at least at Gwinnett in ‘10 and Atlanta in ‘11).
I think the kid is quite talented and will be a strong contributor for years to come.
David O'Brien
June 19th, 2012
6:17 pm
The rained out Braves-Nationals game will be made up as part of a split doubleheader on July 21 at D.C., 1:05 p.m. and 7:05 p.m. Peachtree TV will carry both games in Atlanta and Fox Sports South outside Atlanta.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:17 pm
I don’t think you are remembering that correctly. Prado sure, but Jason? I kinda doubt it.I would say the opposite. Don’t know which site covers that though and I might be wrong
tired of the Atl
June 19th, 2012
6:19 pm
Heyward has two problems: In the near term, he strides like he wants to drive the ball opposite, but he wants to pull the ball, resulting in whiffs or ground balls. Any pitcher that throws him anything over the outer half of the plate is just plain dumb. In the long term, his knees and shoulders will breakdown before he has a chance at a meaningful career, I’m afraid. It hurts to watch him run sometimes, and his swing creates so much pressure and torque on his knees and shoulders that it’s just a matter of time. His swing is anything but easy and compact. He always looks like he’s trying to hit it 500 feet.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:20 pm
hurts to watch him run? really? hmmmm.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:21 pm
well fangraphs says Heyward has 51.8% first pitch strikes and a 12% swinging strikes %
Freeman has a 61.4% first pitch strikes and a 13.5 % swinging strikes
Bat Masterson, maybe you mixed up Freeman and Heyward?
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:22 pm
Jury’s still out on Heyward, IMO. I think Wren will make some hard evaluations after the season about Justin.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:23 pm
Jury isn’t out on Heyward except by those who only use batting average and RBI’s as a judge for production. Kid is going to have a 5+ WAR season and a age 22 that’s remarkable.
IMO, they need to lock him up to an extension and try to buy out a couple of free agent years
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:24 pm
The Braves core is young, we tend to forget. I think some fans expects these kids to perform like seasoned pros from the get-go.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:24 pm
are those swinging strikes though, or just strikes. I find it a bit hard to think that Jason swings at 52% of the first pitches he see. not that I have counted or anything
Bat Masterson
June 19th, 2012
6:24 pm
nolie_
Could be. I was complaining about Heyward letting first pitch strikes go by too often and said I would like to see him ambush a few of them.
I think it was Brian from SC that posted the numbers saying that was not happening. I think he said, at the time, he was swinging at the first pitch more than league average. Anyway whatever he came up with did not fit my perception of what was happening.
Murph
June 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
I think Wren will make some hard evaluations after the season about Justin.
Looks like someone’s got Bieber Fever
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:25 pm
IMO, they need to lock him up to an extension and try to buy out a couple of free agent years,
That ain’t going to happen. Not the way the Braves typically manage young talent.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:26 pm
“Bieber Fever”
It’s gotta be Wren, ’cause it ain’t me!
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:26 pm
ok Bat. I agree that he allows a lot of first pitch strikes go by, if that is what you meant. I thought you meant that he swung at most of the first pitches he sees. time for me to take a reading comp class again perhaps….
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:28 pm
Jeff R
really? they extended Mac, they tried to extend Frenchy and he refused (thank goodness)
I could see them offering 3 extensions this offseason, to Kimbrel, Heyward and Mac, then after 2013 , depending how his season goes, offering one to Freeman.
Juan
June 19th, 2012
6:29 pm
Phillis seond basement Fredy Galvis suspend 50 Games for steroid use.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:29 pm
nolie
it doesn’t specify, it just says first pitch strikes, I couldn’t find the info on swinging at first pitches except that Josh Hamilton leads the league in it
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:31 pm
thanx for looking NickB
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:32 pm
yer welcome!!
It’s one of those stats that is probably meaningless, as for many hitters , the first pitch might be the best that they see, and for others, they may not see anything good until the pitcher makes a mistake. I’m sure history would show that many first pitch swingers still had good plate discipline
CARL AVEN
June 19th, 2012
6:33 pm
THE LEADER IS CHIPPER…IF HE GOES THE REST WILL FOLLOW …WHEN CHIPPER IS HITTING 250 WILL HE HANG IT UP ? ITS COMING FOLKS
phil
June 19th, 2012
6:33 pm
Fredy Galvis, eh?
Brilliant move.
tired of the Atl
June 19th, 2012
6:33 pm
Dude, you have to quit throwing WAR out there, WAR was created by some stat geeks with an unhealthy love for algebra. It means nothing, and all anyone has to know about WAR is that the current version is “WAR 2.1″ and that even the stat geeks can’t on the same page with it. I don’t know if you are trolling or whatever, but no one who actually watches Uggla or Heyward play the game gives two $–t$ about WAR.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:34 pm
NickB,
I’m not sure management (Frank Wren, in particular) is as sold on Heyward as you are. I also think the Braves are being more guarded with budget than they might have been previously.
Kimbrel might be a guy they lock up, though.
McCann… I see Wren exercising his option for ‘13 and awaiting to see how McCann is holding up health-wise and how he’s producing. Also, I think Wren wants to see more from Bethancourt, see what sort of progress he makes through the rest of the season at Mississippi and, perhaps, what he does at Gwinnett into ‘13.
cowdogit
June 19th, 2012
6:34 pm
C FROM MARIETTA – - – We know you would rather have Chipper play and lose than have Constanza play and win , now that McDowell has broken down nearly every arm in the braves organization , What are your thoughts supporting this idiot . We know you are related to Fredi , no one could come out of no where an be that stupid .
Bat Masterson
June 19th, 2012
6:34 pm
Bat Masterson, maybe you mixed up Freeman and Heyward?
Nick_
Well it was regarding Heyward but I didn’t research it. I think it was Brian from SC.
phil
June 19th, 2012
6:35 pm
What are the numbers swinging at pitches 2-whatever? Surely someone counts that stuff too.
And why am I asking?
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:35 pm
yup, Chipper has plate discipline but he swings at the first pitch whenever he likes it.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:36 pm
Why are you asking, phil? Esoteric, huh?
Delbert D.
June 19th, 2012
6:37 pm
I would like to see the numbers for pitchers who had these elbow ligament tears through the years, say 60s, 70s, etc. until now. Before the Tommy John case, they were career-ending, I’m guessing. There was an ex-MLB pitcher on one of the local radios shows a few weeks ago who spoke about the way starting pitchers train and they way they use their body on the mound. He decried the slide-step delivery, saying that the pitcher’s lower body is not used enough. He was one of the windup and full stride guys who pitched in the ’90s to mid 2000s.
Several years ago, I lived in the Philadelphia area and had the pleasure of watching Steve Carlton. He often stated his preference, in opposition to manager Danny Ozark, for a 4-man rotation, and some serious throwing between starts. The contemporaries of his included some other endurance pitchers, Tom Seaver and Nolan Ryan, for example. I go back to Bob Gibson and Jim Bunning with guys who had dominating fastballs. Carlton had a very good fastball and great curve.
There must be some kinesiology studies on pitching.
phil
June 19th, 2012
6:37 pm
Man O War was a great racehorse….
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:37 pm
@ tired of atlanta
umm, everybody who is on the other braves forum I am on (Chopnation ) uses WAR, Capitol Avenue Club Blog uses WAR, WAR has been universally accepted as a valuable stat to compare talent with one easy number, is it perfect? no, but it’s a heck of a lot better than RBI’s and batting avg.
Just because you don’t understand something doesn’t mean it’s worthless, get with the 21st century, the game evolves, the stats evolve, come along and evolve with it!
ChattTownBrian
June 19th, 2012
6:38 pm
Pre game show is fixing to have an interview with Wren and what he might get in a trade. Might be interesting. WATCH
jim
June 19th, 2012
6:38 pm
My perception is that Heyward is likely to take a first pitch strike against a left-handed pitcher too often. Last night, for instance against CC, Sabathia threw him a get-over curve ball on the first pitch on each of his 4 ABs, He took the pitch each time. That was usually the best pitch he saw during the AB. After CC got ahead, he fed him some wicked sliders. He needs to see how the pitcher is seting him up and be ready to hit that first pitch curve the next AB.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:39 pm
he is combining esoterica from all walks to become eclectic
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:40 pm
Heyward should bunt… often.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:41 pm
he takes a whole lot of first pitch strikes against both. I bet he is in the top 10% or so overall
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
6:41 pm
Just looked at the lineups posted and, although this is stating the obvious, it is certainly
a reality check when you compare them position-by-position. We are better at C and LF, and close at CF and 2B. But the Yankees are just so much better top-to-bottom. Amazing what an extra $150M can buy.
1. M. Bourn, CF D. Jeter, SS
2. M. Prado, LF C. Granderson, CF
3. B. McCann, C A. Rodriguez, DH (3B)
4. D. Uggla, 2B R. Cano, 2B
5. F. Freeman, 1B M. Teixeira, 1B
6. C. Jones, 3B R. Ibanez, LF
7. J. Heyward, RF N. Swisher, RF
8. A. Simmons, SS E. Chavez, 3B
9. E. Hinske, DH R. Martin, C
ChattTownBrian
June 19th, 2012
6:42 pm
I guess the full interview will come later. Of course Chipper is still the focal point which is sad. It really is a bummer having to still rely on this guy after all this time.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:42 pm
@ Delbert
a lot of it has to do with the slider and the cutter, they put much more strain on the elbow than fastballs and curves do. Another part of it, is young players work out more and throw much harder than they used to. there were like 35+ guys with 95+ mph pitches who went in the first 3 rounds of the draft this year. That was unheard of even 20 years ago.
My opinion is that kids throw too hard at young ages and do most of the damage then, I wouldn’t be surprised that it’s BECAUSE of TJ surgery that they do this. They think “well , if I blow out my elbow I can have TJ and come back stronger”
Not to mention, that i years past, guys were done if they hurt their elbows , so they pitched much more carefully. So it’s kind of a chicken or the egg thing, having no surgical recourse probably kept pitchers from injury a often, and having the surgery available now probably influences pitcher effort now.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:44 pm
My opinion is that kids throw too hard at young ages and do most of the damage then
Completely agree. Far too many kids are stressing their arms at too young an age. And I think the damage is showing up in their twenties.
ChattTownBrian
June 19th, 2012
6:44 pm
I guess nobody is interested in my Wren comment. Why should you be? You can read the whole thing on the internet if you miss it. Pretty soon tv sets will be out of style.
MFin04
June 19th, 2012
6:45 pm
I’d rather have that Braves lineup to be honest.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:45 pm
@ delbert
Oh, and I am a fan of the 4 man rotation too, as it does 2 important things:
gives more starts to the best pitchers
increases the workload and makes the arm stronger
the problem is, to bring the 4 man rotation back would involve a complete revision of the minor league preparation of pitchers, they would have to focus more on arm strength, lots more throwing , lots more pitches per game than they are used to. I worry that many eggs would be broken before it got all sorted out
cabravesfan
June 19th, 2012
6:45 pm
A lot of us don’t get the pre game show…
BFChris27
June 19th, 2012
6:47 pm
ChattTownBrian
Like cabravesfan said, a lot of us don’t get the pregame show.
I would like to know what he says tho
Falling Closer To .500
June 19th, 2012
6:48 pm
“Pre game show is fixing to have an interview with Wren and what he might get in a trade. Might be interesting. WATCH”
LOL what a waste of a view! Wren spent his 30 seconds talking about how important it was to get Chipper on track! Nothing about what they Braves need or what they might do! lmao
Wren would make a good politician. Never answer a real question, just say something stupid and hope no one will push you to give a real answer.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:48 pm
I am a fan of the 4 man rotation too, as it does 2 important things:
gives more starts to the best pitchers
increases the workload and makes the arm stronger
Amen. The complete game stat is something of a farce these days. And why shouldn’t your best starting pitchers be giving 250 plus innings a season?
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
6:49 pm
@MFin04: I would too if we are talking about over the next 3-5 years. But for now – this year – the Yankees lineup is just so solid. About the only real weaknesses are catcher – though Martin may come around – and leftfield. And if Gardner makes it back then that hole is certainly filled.
ChattTownBrian
June 19th, 2012
6:49 pm
Oh I didn’t even realize that. Well yeah, me or I’m sure somebody will relay what Wren has to say.
B_F 54
June 19th, 2012
6:50 pm
There is only one thing better than going to work working 40 minutes and your sup asks if you want to go home and take a personal day…..get home Bravos and the evil empire are on MLBN it makes my 208 $ cable bill a little easier to take
GO BRAVOS
CB
June 19th, 2012
6:50 pm
Hi,nolie.Sorry, I stepped away for a few minutes. Everything is well, hoping your health is holding up. I see you are still fighting the good fight on the blog.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:50 pm
well , you don’t want to spill the beans on your actual trade plans and give leverage to the other GM’s who may try to sipe you, or get you to cough up more than you would like to in deals!!!
It’d be like test driving a car and when you get back to the dealership screaming” best car ever!!!”
ncbravesfan90
June 19th, 2012
6:51 pm
Wren sounding like a trade is more likely than using the young starting pitching arms.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:51 pm
LOL what a waste of a view! Wren spent his 30 seconds talking about how important it was to get Chipper on track! Nothing about what they Braves need or what they might do! lmao
Really? You expect Wren to broadcast to other GMs what he wants to do to improve the club? Maybe Frank could read off a list of players he’d be willing to trade?
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:52 pm
much of it has to do with getting rid of the full windup which means pitchers have to stress their arms more to make up for the lack of momentum that the windup produced. plus there has been a school of thought teaching inverted w and extreme scapula compression to some younguns, both of which are now proving over the long run to be detrimental mechanics. if you ain’t gonna wind up much the best approach is drive and drop, get your speed from your legs
Falling Closer To .500
June 19th, 2012
6:52 pm
Wren on again……telling everyone what everyone knew about Beachy….. partial tear….. gonna wait and see what Dr. Andrews said.
Wren doing his song and dance about having to wait and see where they are in a few weeks and looking forward to seeing what JJ can do when he returns.
Big picture from Frank….”w try to communicate as much as possible….wanted JJ to stay there (minors) until he figured it out. We’ve seen him have quality games. When we sent Medlin down JJ hadn’t made progress…. now he has”
B_F 54
June 19th, 2012
6:53 pm
I agree whole heartedlly Hoss needs to cowboy up or cut a trail
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
6:54 pm
When the word “trade” and the Braves appear in the same sentence I get really nervous. Over the past decade, for every Bourn and Uggla success there is a Teixera or JD Drew disaster.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:54 pm
4 man rotation ain’t ever coming back. it would be devastating to current mechanics
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:55 pm
“Hoss” has two bad knees and a guaranteed contract for this season in the millions. He ain’t cutting no trail, pard’ner.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:55 pm
nothing disastrous about the Drew trade
Ralph
June 19th, 2012
6:55 pm
How many of you fok drank Wren’s kool-aid????
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:56 pm
especially if he reads all the disrespect here, he’d stay just to screw all the Chipper haters….
B_F 54
June 19th, 2012
6:56 pm
Like I said last week Jair could be our “Dempster” I like his heart hoping for a resurgence from JJ
nolie
June 19th, 2012
6:56 pm
all but the haterade drinkers
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:57 pm
The JD Drew trade wasn’t bad at all. We got good production out of him (maybe his best season in MLB) and Wainwright, was still just a prospect. You can’t look at trades in hindsight and complain that the player you gave up turned out to be great. You have to look at it in the context of the tim the trade was made.
JS ,however, made a terrible deal for Tex, as he was never going to hit enough to get the Braves in the postseason that year
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
6:57 pm
Mechanics can be changed, Nolie. Humans aren’t different from, oh, the 60s or 70s, when more than a few starting pitchers were still racking up the innings and completing games.
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
6:58 pm
@nolie: we gave up Adam Wainwright (and a couple others) to get a two-year rental of a prima donna guy (and a couple others).. Wainwright has turned out to be one of the best pitchers in the NL over the past five years. That was a disaster of a trade in my mind.
The A Bomb
June 19th, 2012
6:58 pm
Wren’s too busy trying to find the next unproductive Georgian to draft with too much hometown pressure.
ChattTownBrian
June 19th, 2012
6:59 pm
Wren did sound like we could be getting a starter come trade deadline. Of course that guy could be a Greinke or a innings eater. Never know. No question though he sounded concerned losing one of our top starters, so maybe he goes out and tries to get #1.
Talk of JJ is typical old over optimism. He struggles again and he’ll be gone and quick imo. He’s been given more than one chance.
NickB
June 19th, 2012
6:59 pm
Wainwright also had TJ surgery and has been very shakey in his return.
This idea that you can acquire someone who put up the numbers in ATL like Drew did, for nothing is whats unrealistic here
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
7:00 pm
@NickB: I agree about the hindsight, but back then Wainwright was our #1 or #2 prospect. The Cards were not going to give up Drew without him. They thought back then that Wainwright had the stuff to be a top-of-the-rotation guy.
I guess I just don’t like giving up top prospects for rental players.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
7:01 pm
mechanics can be changed, but they haven’t and are unlikely to either.although I’d like to see it happen, it does slow down the approach to the plate.
and It is a cya deal with 5 starters too.. use 4 and have things go bad and you are branded Dusty 2 the rest of your career
B_F 54
June 19th, 2012
7:01 pm
Galvis busted for Peds my how the philthies are falling :smiley:
cabravesfan
June 19th, 2012
7:01 pm
Huge sigh of relief…we get the Braves feed tonight
NickB
June 19th, 2012
7:02 pm
we got one full season of 1.000+ OPS ball out of Drew, it wasn’t a true rental…
I don’t mind those kinds of deals as for every Wainwright , there’s an Andy Marte.
Tomahawk Mafia
June 19th, 2012
7:02 pm
I feel a Braves win coming in the air tonight.
Efrim
June 19th, 2012
7:02 pm
Wren’s too busy trying to find the next unproductive Georgian to draft with too much hometown pressure.
Sims was a fine pick, imo. Excited to see how he does in the GCL.
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
7:02 pm
@NickB: I agree about the unrealistic notions of getting a high-value player for nothing. That’s why I’d pefer Wren to just stick with what we’ve got for now rather than make a desperation trade.
McFann :Ô: :Ô: :ô:
June 19th, 2012
7:02 pm
cabravesfan Huge sigh of relief…we get the Braves feed tonight
How’s that differ’nt than the Yankees’ feed?…
cowdogit
June 19th, 2012
7:03 pm
Put McDowell at third and let Chipper become our pitching coach . These two clowns are killing the braves , so what have we got to lose .
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
7:03 pm
I guess I just don’t like giving up top prospects for rental players.
Drew was a rental player, no doubt. The Braves wanted to keep “The Run” going so they were rather short term in their thinking, I believe, in swinging the Drew and then Tex deals. Oh, and I think Wainwright will regain form and contribute nicely to the Cards. Where’s Drew these days?
cabravesfan
June 19th, 2012
7:03 pm
McFann-
sigh… you know what I mean!
The A Bomb
June 19th, 2012
7:04 pm
Braves better trade for someone. because no relevant free agent is going to look at Atlanta as a legitimate destination because of the MANIC culture being developed here. Can’t see Bourn sticking around for this when he can go win in D.C. or some other team that says STOCK UP all over it.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
7:04 pm
there was some hope that JD would hang around since he was a Ga boy. prolly was unrealistic , but sometimes folks see what they want too or think a balance will tip the way they want it too. GMs need to stay away from that, but they aren’t always successful being human
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
7:05 pm
@NickB: so, using that rationale, we could perhaps then justify the Texiera trade, right? I mean, we got one and a half great OPS seasons out of the guy? I’m not being sarcastic, just trying to suggest that there may be alternative arguments for evaluating these trades.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
7:05 pm
nolie, well, remember the four-man rotation was typically augmented by a fifth starter during the dog days. Or one of the bullpen guys was a “spot starter/long man.”
Seems quaint, don’t it?
ChattTownBrian
June 19th, 2012
7:06 pm
Nice to see a shot of Swisher acting like a little obnoxious beeyatch in that last shot before commercial. OMG hit that douche in the ribs please
nolie
June 19th, 2012
7:06 pm
IIRC Wainwright took a while to become special, a bit like Schmidt(sp) did. might have still been traded for something else
ncbravesfan90
June 19th, 2012
7:06 pm
Was that Chipper’s endorsement of Fredi G? haha
David O'Brien
June 19th, 2012
7:07 pm
How Jurrjens could help Braves now and possibly in trade scenario
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2012/06/19/jurrjens-could-help-braves-now-and-possibly-in-trade-scenario/
cabravesfan
June 19th, 2012
7:08 pm
Well, I could watch the game in HD on MLB Network, but that would mean having to listen to the Yankees announcers…think I’ll pass
O.M.G.
June 19th, 2012
7:08 pm
You got it ChattTownBrain.
Jeff R
June 19th, 2012
7:08 pm
there was some hope that JD would hang around since he was a Ga boy.
Some also had the hope that because Tex went to Ga Tech and his wife is an Atlantan that he’s take a “hometown discount” rather than trotting off to NYC for a big contract and major big dollar endorsements.
T’wasn’t going to ever happen.
nolie
June 19th, 2012
7:08 pm
there is Illini, some folks do not see the Tex trade as the unmitigated disaster that others do. Was not his fault that we did not get there that first year, he sure carried the team offensively. pitching just went to hell
IlliniBrave
June 19th, 2012
7:08 pm
@nolie: you always seem to bring such balance and harmony to these debates. Good for you
tired of the Atl
June 19th, 2012
7:09 pm
phil….Man O War….nice
NickB, I don’t care to understand it. WAR is just the traditional stats, especially runs, all broken up and mashed up into a formula. I never said the traditional stats told much anyway, though I think On-Base Percentage is probably the most useful stat of all of them. But using WAR is trendy, the guys on ESPN do it, whatever. Just don’t try to tell me that a guy is better than he looks, or more valuable than he appears, because a math formula says so.
jim
June 19th, 2012
7:09 pm
In the 50’s pitchers like Spahn and Burdett were in a 4-man rotation, and sometimes came in to relieve between starts. In the famous 16-inning game between Spahn and Marichal, the 42-year old Spahn got beat by a HR by Mays on hsi 201st pitch of the night. Marichal had a pitch count of 235. Both came back 4 days later to make their regular starts — Spahn pitched a complete game shutout and Marichal went 7 innings in a 2-0 loss to Gibson. The full wind up and high leg kick of those two, and others of that era may have helped preserve the arms. The work out regimen of today’s pitchers may also have a lot to do with the rate of arm injuries. Kids in the 50’s spent a lot of idle moments throwing a tennis ball at a rectangle chalked on a brick wall. There were fewer high pressure games and more recreational throwing.
bravesgrl4life
June 19th, 2012
7:10 pm
Well, it won’t be a repeat of last night. Not sure if that’s good or not.