6:20 pm May 10, 2012, by David O'Brien
Reid in EAV
May 10th, 20126:24 pm
May 10th, 20126:26 pm
May 10th, 20126:28 pm
OK a real comment: you know the games are tight when they’re won and lost on defensive positioning. And they most definitely were. A few fewer overshifts and the Cubs would have lost 2 out of 3.
May 10th, 20126:31 pm
Swinging bats would help. Pitching not as good as Holliday and we beat him. No excuses.
May 10th, 20126:36 pm
May 10th, 20126:40 pm
Matt Holliday is a pitcher now? When did we face him?
May 10th, 20126:43 pm
you have to tip your cap to the cubs. You have got to believe the back of the bubble gum card like we did for greg norton and so many others.
May 10th, 20126:46 pm
DOB is really dumb thinking short sample size good starts suddenly means these Cub pitchers are awesome. Still using ERA to judge pitcher performance as well. Such a fossil.
May 10th, 20126:48 pm
That Bourn stat has to be 40-111, not 211.
May 10th, 20127:13 pm
Just move Chipper back to the #2 spot and everything will be ok. Its not a disgrace but its still awful.
May 10th, 20127:31 pm
DOB is really dumb thinking short sample size good starts suddenly means these Cub pitchers are awesome. Still using ERA to judge pitcher performance as well. Such a fossil. — Jack
Tell ‘em ’bout it, Enlightened Sabermetric Guy.
It’d be interesting to see one of the Enlightened Guys actually try to cover a team on a daily basis, and ask questions, and deal with, you know, the human element of the game. The actual people who play it and manage it, instead of just dealing with others who sit at home and analyze it and don’t care anything about the people who play.
It’d be funny, actually.
May 10th, 20127:46 pm
LOL!!! Great one, DOB ! The Enlightened Guys!!! I’d really like to see one of the EG’s actually try to PLAY a game, even against each other… gee, I’d even PAY to see that one…
May 10th, 20127:51 pm
For once DO’B I agree with you. We just plain got whupped!
May 10th, 20127:58 pm
What DOB failed to point out is the fact that over the last 2-3 yrs. especially, it is a trademark of the Braves to do better against the top echelon of teams than they do against the bottom rung teams, especially within their division. He failed to note the Cubs were a last place team when the Braves got to Chicago. The Braves had just swept the Rockies in their home park and looked like “world beaters”. Then they go and lay a “rotten egg” against the team who was in last place at the time in their division, and is now tied with the Brewers for last place. This happens much too often, and will never lead to being the type team it takes to claim first place for very long and reach the WS.
May 10th, 20128:21 pm
Man, thank you for that response Dave. I know the Saber guys think that ONLY the new stats matter, but seriously, ERA, above anything else, is still a mighty telling indicator of how good a pitcher is. Wins and losses, yea, we know, but the funny thing is guys with consistently low ERA’s over a career sure tend to end up with a lot of wins. And yes, walks are fantastic, always have been, but batting average still means a little something too. And agreed, really, it all doesn’t mean much of anything really. I seriously wish these dudes would just shut the hell up. Nobody cares.
American League = Fake Baseball
May 10th, 20128:48 pm
How long before the Cubs splurge on chicken & beer in the clubhouse?
May 10th, 20129:18 pm
I agree with DOB’s assessment; while it’s obviously disappointing to lose 2 of 3 against the Cubs, that was a well-played and highly contested series by both teams, and Cubs fans have a lot to be optimistic about due to their pitching and some of those young position players. In short, this wasn’t one of those “failed to beat a team you were supposed to beat” situations that have plagued the Braves the past few years. And to be sure, I didn’t get the same nauseating “You gotta tip your cap to” vibe from the Braves that I sensed last year, and I seriously hope I never will sense that again from them. They have another tough series coming up against the Cardinals, and I hope they can wrap up the road trip on a positive note.
May 10th, 20129:19 pm
Sorry for the duplicate post; I accidentally clicked twice because my screen froze.
May 10th, 20129:40 pm
The lowly Cubbies had just beat the Mighty Dodgers 2 out of 3 before the Braves series.
Mark (another one)
May 10th, 20129:41 pm
DOB: On a slow night, your response gave me a Chipper like laugh. I covered college B-Ball in Long Beach back when Jerry Tarkanian was at CSULB and Lute Olson was at LBCC. I was a math guy (currently working in computers) but speaking to the coaches and players, the only stat they carried about was also called a win. It’s important to play the games, and in a short series, stats don’t really mean much. They may explain what happened but are not that predictive.
The Cubs pitchers are hot. We lost 2 of 3. Will they cool down? Who knows? The Cubs are betting, hoping their pitching holds up and the hitters provide just enough offense to win. Isn’t that a familiar formula to Braves fans?
Sorry. Cared, not carried.
May 10th, 20129:55 pm
Those games just point out that luck plays a bigger role in baseball than just about any sport you can name. The Braves hit some rockets that found the Cubs gloves and none of them were great plays like the Braves fielders were making. I read somewhere that there are fewer upsets in Tennis than any other sport because luck doesn’t play much of a role. Did you ever play Candyland with a three year old? You didn’t even have to throw the games because they had just as much of a chance to win as you did because the only thing that mattered was the throw of the dice. The braves played good ball. They could have been a little more selective at the plate but overall they looked like a good major league ball team that ran into some hot pitching.
May 10th, 201210:03 pm
If swingin’ the bat don’t work, bunt.
May 10th, 201210:30 pm
Wow, where did you posters come from? Posters that actually know what they’re talking about! Thank you, ATLcracker… the armchairs don’t have a clue how much luck is involved with baseball… Hey, 20-20 guys… y’all should take some heed in what these guys have to say… you might actually enjoy the beautiful game a little more!
May 10th, 201210:48 pm
It was just bad luck and bad timing. I do want to see Chipper back to hitting 2nd.
May 10th, 201210:49 pm
But we lost 2 of of 3 close games its not like we lost 4 in a row to start the season or blow a 10 1/2 game lead with a month to go so, I’m not at “DEFCON 4″ just yet. We just need to beat the Cardnials and get the swagger back.
May 10th, 201210:51 pm
But look at the good things that the Starting pitching is getting its act back together and Hudson looked like an ACE should look. Now if we can get EOF to just get back to his usual form and get Moylan back to replace Chad Durbin then the Pitching Staff will be set.
May 10th, 201210:53 pm
Disgrace= losing a 10 1/2 game lead with a month to go
Just awful Luck = losing 2 out of 3 close games to the Cubs.
Hawks got screded by the Refs tonight
May 10th, 201210:54 pm
May 10th, 201211:29 pm
DOB–well put and I completely agree with your assessment of the series. Just tip your cap to the Cubs and their hot pitching staff and move onto St. Louis. Some of the posters on here drive me crazy. Just b/c the Braves lost a series doesn’t mean they can’t accomplish any goal they’ve set for themselves at the start of the year. Last I checked the Bravos are 4-2 on this road trip and record wise one of the tops in the NL. Keep it in perspective people.
May 10th, 201211:46 pm
people relax you cant win every game your going to lose series here and their thats baseball stop complaining and just calm down and lay off dob hes awesome GO Braves
May 10th, 201211:54 pm
The best part of the story was the Chipper – Adam Dunn exchange…………….
I had the same reaction that Chipper did…..sat up and laughed…. pretty quick that big lug Dunn….
May 11th, 201212:15 am
Well if we take 2 out of the against the Cardnials it will go a long way to give some of the doubters or worriers some belief. If we can go in and beat the Cardnials it will go a long way to get over last years collapse…………I hope we can do it.
May 11th, 20122:48 am
Love the conversation between Chipper and Dunn. Another odd thing about adam dunn is that he leads the league in strikeouts and walks! How does that work? Hahahahaha
May 11th, 20123:00 am
To be honest the Phillies are still the biggest threat in the division. I want to see if the Nats can hold up for an entire season especially when their pitchers have innings limits.
May 11th, 20126:06 am
I’ll tell what is a disgrace….Don Sutton on the radio!!!
May 11th, 20127:09 am
I’d say that a total of 4 runs, in three games is a disgrace.
May 11th, 20127:26 am
DOB you are so funny. Let me give you a bit of sports and life reality, IT’S ALWAYS A DISGRACE TO LOSE!!!
May 11th, 20127:40 am
The difference in this series I think was the Cubs advance scouting. They had their position players placed perfectly on almost every hitter during this series and that more than anything else was the difference in losing 2 or winning 2. The Braves hit some balls hard but almost always there was a Cub standing right there.
Also, going to Chicago early in the season can give you some strange weather and Monday and Wednesday were perfect pitching weather for Chicago with cool temps and the wind blowing hard and in. All 6 starters were good and other then O’Flaherty & Durbin on Monday and Kerry Wood on Tuesday all the pitchers did well.
May 11th, 20128:02 am
42 comments so far, and nobody demanded that someone be fired.
When our biggest complaints are our sportswriter and our radio play-by-play guy, it makes me feel good about the team.
And for the record, I like DOB and Don Sutton.
May 11th, 20128:30 am
Even the best teams lose four in a row sometimes, J-MAN… IT”S A PART OF BASEBALL!!!! IT HAPPENS EVERY SEASON!!!!!! Braves were unfortunate to fight so many injuries last season, particularly at the end, and have the hitters fall into their slumps at a crucial time…. Again, It happens all the time to every team at some point or another in a season… Part of baseball…. UNLUCKY for both to happen at the same time, but not the end of the world… the 2011 season is LONG GONE… Best to leave the expertise to those who actually play, coach, and manage in the major leagues… best to leave the cheering and support to real fans who know and appreciate the game…. To those that denigrate, name call, and armchair – get real… you couldn’t manage an American Legion team…
May 11th, 20128:32 am
A 40 year old with bad knees in the two-hole? Seriously?!!! LOL!!!
May 11th, 20128:34 am
It’s still the Cubs with better pitching.
The Cubs Are an Advanced Scouting Machine and Other Bullets | Bleacher Nation | Chicago Cubs News, Rumors, and Commentary
May 11th, 20129:05 am
[...] O’Brien of the Atlanta Journal Constitution is highly complimentary of the Cubs team that just took two of three from the Braves. It wasn’t the Braves’ fault, says [...]
You said what?
May 11th, 20129:12 am
Rizzo has recently taken a step back on the innings limit issue as it pertains to Strasburg.
Anya Hashimika Yobasayo
May 11th, 20129:46 am
Yeah, that no-name cub lineup that the TV/radio guys mocked [just like Pitt Pirates] took it to them. When will they learn to get their heads out of the sand?
May 11th, 20129:54 am
Hi Shu Carl
May 11th, 201210:21 am
DOB you are so funny. Let me give you a bit of sports and life reality, IT’S ALWAYS A DISGRACE TO LOSE!!! – Reality Check
Sounds like someone who doesn’t compete at the highest levels at anything. Correct me if I’m wrong about that.
yep…nothing like liking a drunk radio play by play man who says ridiculous things, stumbles over his words, mixes words and gets paid to do it.
And now the Adam Dunn and Chipper Jones comedy hour | HardballTalk
May 11th, 201210:33 am
[...] anecdote about Chipper Jones and Adam Dunn from Dave O’Brien of the AJC, arising out of the observation that Dunn, despite hitting his usual taters, is on a historic [...]
May 11th, 201210:36 am
Ha! Great text exchange between Chipper and Dunn.
May 11th, 201210:38 am
@Dwayne Muki Tiki yi
May 11th, 201210:39 am
SO NOW – We should start TIPPING OUR CAPS to the LAST PLACE CUBS??????
May 11th, 201210:45 am
Shi Hu Don
May 11th, 201210:51 am
Dwayne- Listen in to Cardinals radio and you get all those things you mentioned in your last post.
Sometimes your team runs into a buzzsaw.
Sometimes your team is the buzzsaw other teams run into.
May 11th, 201210:54 am
Don- even last place teams are allowed to win a series every now and then.
May 11th, 201210:56 am
@ Lag Yoko si lia so
May 11th, 201211:08 am
Man losing to the Cubs is to a disgrace .
May 11th, 201211:41 am
@Everyone…. Saki time Sayonara for now.
May 11th, 201211:47 am
DOB, as one of the (arguably) enlightened sabermetrics guys I just wanted to say that your response to jack was spot on in my mind. I’ve argued with you before in this space about the relative merits of Fredi Gonzalez but never would I expect a beat writer such as yourself to compromise your access by being overly analytical or critical of the team or its management. Of course, at times that criticism is warranted and it’s part of what these guys signed up for but a person in your position isn’t the place that should come from. Didn’t want you to go away thinking that just because we stat types like to argue we can’t appreciate your angle. Have a good one.
May 11th, 201211:55 am
Dave: Why waste time responding to the really dumb/immature comments? Most of us out here completely discount/ignore silly comments such as “ERA is irrelevant” and “it is always a disgrace to lose”.
May 11th, 201212:04 pm
Cubs pitchers may not be the best in league overall, but what really matters is when you happen to play against certain pitchers. Doc may be one of the best in the business, but we obviously caught him on an off day. And unfortunately we played the Cubs at the wrong time and played against the 3 hottest pitchers in the league. Just like Freeman is not going to rake the way he has so far all year long, Cubs pitchers won’t pitch like that all year.
And come on that game on Wednesday, Cubs hit that brought in the run was about 2 inches under shortstops glove (can’t remember if it was Wilson or Pastor at that point, Wilson I think). And they had to snare a liner to keep us at no runs, plus Chipper just missed homerun to tie it in ninth. Inches on all those plays
May 11th, 201212:07 pm
Good article, DOB.
iTsi….Yes, the Cubs were in last place when we played em…but that’s because they started out this season 3-11. They’ve played some good ball since and their staff ERA is very good. Yes, one can’t go strictly by ERA…I prefer overall records for pitchers…BB/strikes, won/lost, opponent BA, and ERA.
The bats were a little cold, but that was some very good pitching we faced; and ours didn’t do too shabby. DOB is just saying, not a disgrace as it may have been in the past. Heck, even good teams will lose a series to a sorry team every now and then. Mainly, don’t get your jock in a wad over one series, or two. It’s a long season….as has been pointed out a zillion times.
If we take the series against the Cards, this Chitown trip will be all but forgotten.
May 11th, 201212:11 pm
Not to mention, we’re still only a half game out of first place; and only three teams in the NL have better records.
May 11th, 201212:20 pm
Same ‘ol team from Atlanta. Just accept it…the Cubs are a better team than the Braves. How does that feel? Want some more? Then keep playing “tip your cap baseball” and you’ll get a full plate of it big boy!! These guys are just about ready to cash in already…..When they start accepting losing then their bout done…seen it from this oranization for YEARS! Never changes!!! NEVER! Just keep watching…You’ll see.
May 11th, 201212:21 pm
@skeezix, ERA isn’t irrelevant but there are better measures of a pitcher’s performance that attempt to strip out the parts of ERA that are largely out of his control – such as the quality of his defense behind him and the ballpark in which he’s pitching. Over large enough samples ERA isn’t too bad. Most importantly though, most people don’t have to care about ERA’s shortcomings if they don’t want to. Baseball front offices do, but fans don’t. What difference does it make if a fan wants to quote ERA or FIP? Actually, what difference does it even make if a fan is right or wrong? Frank Wren really needs to be right. DetroitBraves does not.
Totally agree with you on “disgrace to lose”. The best teams in baseball are going to lose 60 games are so. That’s a whole bucket load of disgrace to have to endure.
May 11th, 201212:34 pm
Chipper has batted once at # 2 all season. He had a good game that night, but that does not mean that he would hit like that every night in that spot of the order. Prado had the best ABs of any Brave in Wednesday’s game, so I don’t think the Braves did not score because Chipper was not batting 2nd. Now if you were lobbying to have him hit 4th behind Freeman, you would have a stronger case.
May 11th, 201212:38 pm
Actually it is a disgrace to lose to the Cubs, they are next to last in a weak division and already 7 games out. We need to step it up against the lower tier teams, we’ve lost series to the Mutts, Pirates, Astros etc Play pretty good against the good teams. Go Braves !!
May 11th, 201212:40 pm
May 11th, 201212:41 pm
Are we in Chicago?
What is this?
Guess what, in the playoffs the Braves are going to have to face even better pitching and if they don’t figure out a way to beat good pitching in the regular season they’re just going to lose in October like they have countless times before.
In case you forgot what city this was, just reread the headline and you’ll know.
We’re the only team the Cubs have beaten in a playoff series in over a hundred years.
That constitutes a life sentence of disgrace.
May 11th, 201212:42 pm
@jim, it’s a little out of line with their historical numbers but as of now Prado is getting on base at a better clip than Chipper. If that’s believable then that’s a good argument for keeping Prado at #2 instead of Chipper. I would say that it’s not believable except that I’m not sure how much Chipper’s historical rates apply to the 40-year-old version. I guess that’s to say that if the choice at #2 is between Chipper and Prado I can’t say that Fredi is making the wrong one.
May 11th, 201212:44 pm
The Braves neither lost a series to the Pirates nor Astros, and they won their last series against a Mets team that just swept the Phillies in Philadelphia. I’m not sure how meaningful any of that is but it’s at least true.
May 11th, 201212:47 pm
Thank you rbraves!
They’re in last f*ing place. Or were at the start of the series.
Nobody was saying it was a disgrace, just that it was a bad series.
But to make a point to say “losing this time is no disgrace,” I don’t get it.
That’s just the Atlanta sports media for you.
That’s like the Braves marketing people trying to sell tickets by saying “Come see the World Champion Cardinals!”
It never ends.
May 11th, 201212:50 pm
I agree, but If you’re going to start publicly insinuating that Frank Wren’s opinion matters more than people on this blog, you’re going to get run off the blog. Maybe barred from the entire internet.
May 11th, 201212:51 pm
There’s actually a photo of Cubs players celebrating the win from Wednesday on the Braves page on ajc.com.
Again, what city is this?
For the record, whoever’s in charge of that, I don’t want to see a picture of the @#$%ing Cubs when I log onto ajc.com/braves!
May 11th, 201212:56 pm
@IHEARTCARROLL Anya Hashimika Yobasayo
Poor Mitchell… you’re such a crappy fan anyway… what’s it to you? When you EGs get together for your game, be sure to ask to be on Ralph’s team… whiners of a feather, you know…
May 11th, 201212:58 pm
J-Man….. hitters in the 2 hole usually are those that can motor a little bit… basic baseball… 101….
May 11th, 20121:03 pm
Frank Wren’s opinion matters more, but that’s not to be confused with him being more right. That he’s ascended to his position doesn’t necessarily mean that he knows more about player evaluation than someone that has not. Generally speaking maybe it does, but it’s not a given. It does, however, almost certainly mean that he knows more about dealing with agents, ownership, budgets, etc. than anyone on these blogs – an aspect of constructing a team very convienently overlooked out here.
As for being barred from the internet, I’ve lived most of my life in the pre-internet age. From what I recall, I had a pretty good time.
May 11th, 20121:07 pm
@DetroitBraves Shi Hu
May 11th, 20121:12 pm
i think “blogs” should be re-named “thongs” because they sure expose a lot of rear-ends.
May 11th, 20121:15 pm
I was attempting humor, there, but there is a lot of good substance in you reply. A lot of the comments on here don’t take into account those things.
May 11th, 20121:21 pm
Refigure the Braves ERA without JJ and Durbin and it would be in the same ballpark or better than the Cubs.
May 11th, 20121:22 pm
@IHEARTCARROLL Muki tiki yi saro?
May 11th, 20121:28 pm
@Don Nottebart, reconfigure last season without Fredi Gonzalez and the Braves make the playoffs. Whoops, did I just go there? Don’t tell DOB.
May 11th, 20121:31 pm
Any true baseball fan who watched those three games appreciated the kind of baseball being played. The pitching was so excellent on both sides that all the games came down to pure chance where a hit turned into a lined out made the difference every time. In game two, Uggla’s hit found the gap between third and short. In games one and two, line drives hit multiple times to second and short robbed the Braves of multiple RBI’s that would have won those two games.
Play ball tonight!
May 11th, 20121:50 pm
@Ken Stallings, yeah those were good games and you make a really good point. The disproportinate role randomness plays in baseball relative to the other sports is why they play 162 games. As human beings, we generally try to ascribe meaning to everything. Simple randomness is hard to accept. Over time if the Braves keep hitting those line drives they’ll be just fine.
May 11th, 20121:59 pm
Shi Hu DetroitBraves Moga Moga Chio yi ti SAYONARA!!!
May 11th, 20122:12 pm
Could I be wrong about Chipper being placed in the #2 spot……maybe. But its an OPINION and I had 3 games as a reference to use and to me in those games he looked like a perfect fit. But lobosolo once again you are here with the name bashing and nothing productive to say…….except “Armchair Bloggers”, seriously do you ever say anything with merit. I miss reckingball because he would disagree with me but at least he was intelligent and could have a meaningful discussion with all you do is call anyone that doesnt just say Fredi is the greatest manager ever is an “Armchair blogger”. In fact it appears all you do is only post after I post, so that just makes you a “Reactor” you have no real opinions only the opposite oppinion I give you. Also what gives ANYONE the right to say who is a real Braves fan and who isnt, we are all fans lobosolo and just because someone expresses themselves different doesnt mean that your better than them so GET OVER YOURSELF.
May 11th, 20122:15 pm
May 11th, 20122:16 pm
May 11th, 20122:17 pm
I think reckingball is still around. Mabye not today but I think he’s still here more times than not.
May 11th, 20122:21 pm
Wow J-Man. I don’t even know how to make little smiley faces.
@Don Nottebart, reconfigure last season without Fredi Gonzalez and the Braves make the playoffs. Whoops, did I just go there? Don’t tell DOB. — DetroitBraves
DOB wouldn’t be offended in the least. But definitely don’t tell Robert.
May 11th, 20122:25 pm
JMan you have no idea what you said? I am not Japanese. I am Korean. There is a big difference.
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