10:23 am March 23, 2012, by David O'Brien
March 26th, 20124:12 pm
flange1, teams wouldn’t benefit all that much since no one else is doing it. Yes, the teams that do it first will reap the largest benefit but it won’t be that large a benefit. It’s not a large enough benefit to make it worth all the hullabaloo. A team gains little or nothing right now, while everyone is playing on the lower playing field when it comes to bullpen usage, so why change until they are forced to in order to keep up with their competition…or unless they have a cover, like a veteran with closer experience.
Murph, your analogy would work, if kicking a field goal on an early down increased the chances that a team wins rather than waiting until 4th down. In fact, what do teams often do when they are in field goal range and the game is tied on earlier downs than fourth? They’ll often kick the field goal on an earlier down rather than waiting. Teams don’t do it on earlier downs throughout most of the game because it doesn’t do anything to the probability that they’ll win the game and, in fact, it decreases it because they are costing themselves a chance at a touchdown.
Bay Area Steve
March 26th, 20124:17 pm
It’s “gain little or nothing now,” but be “forced” to adapt “to keep up with the competition.”
March 26th, 20124:27 pm
flange1, teams wouldn’t benefit all that much since no one else is doing it.
I are And Idiot for asking, but you’re gonna have to explain this one to me. Does your bullpen theory supply a competitive advantage or not? If so, how does the only team to grasp this NOT reap a benefit? I’m asking because, in the business world, competitive advantages do not work as you describe, LOL.
Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)
March 26th, 20124:30 pm
Same people, same argument, different day.
Bay Area Steve, why is that such a foreign concept. Look at baseball before Babe Ruth. It was very much a game of what we now call “small ball” but to even more of a dramatic degree than small ball of today. A team could have changed and tried to get homerun hitters, and told their hitters to hit more homeruns but they didn’t. When Babe Ruth came along, he was scrutinized by the media and the fans and his way of doing things was seen as a passing fad. And his way of hitting was seen as something that wouldn’t work in the long term. As time went on, the scrutiny died and Ruth changed baseball offense. Teams were forced to adapt. They gained little while everyone else was doing it wrong.
March 26th, 20124:31 pm
so teams are making their closer a lesser pitcher so that they can use their best pitcher once in a while in an earlier inning without the media knowing that is what is happening, at the cost of having to use that lesser pitcher every time the need a closer in a late close game?
man that is some brilliant strategy….
March 26th, 20124:32 pm
Ah, come on, Coach, jump in, the water’s fine. What else you got to do on an off-day?
Shaun, what analogy? I was just stating an opinion that, rather and wait for 4th down, teams should take any points they can get when the opportunity presents itself.
Has nothing to do with your discussion on relievers, other than wanting to discuss something other than relievers.
Look at the red zone percentages of several NFL teams last season… I didn’t… but I’m guessing some are pretty poor. If those teams kicked the FG when they got within range their overall points-scored might actually improve.
Or not. Again, I put zero thought into this hypothesis, I just wanted to move the conversation on to something else.
We could talk about puppies if you prefer… or the 3 goals that the 4 year old scored in her first soccer game… against boys, some of which were twice her size.
March 26th, 20124:33 pm
so join in and add some variety coach….
damn scoots beat me too it….again
March 26th, 20124:35 pm
ncscoots, the business world is a little different and less conservative than the sports world. If a business does something outside the box and non-traditional, it’s generally applauded and it’s not scrutinized in the newspaper and by millions of fans of that company. But I’m sure there are some examples in the business world where someone did something different and it was looked down upon because it wasn’t the way things had always been done.
March 26th, 20124:37 pm
Again, logic fail.
Why would teams not benefit that much if no other team is doing it?
If it has any value at all, and the first team do implement the strategy would be the one to reap the most rewards, why is no team trying it?
My guess is that teams have done the research and discovered that your strategy for the bullpen is the same as your strategy for the 2 hole hitter being the best on the team, that both have little or no significant value as it relates to the amount of wins in a season.
March 26th, 20124:38 pm
March 26th, 20124:39 pm
I didn’t relaize that Morneau and Mauer account for nearly 40 percent of the Twins payroll. Wow.
March 26th, 20124:40 pm
In other words – insignificant.
Can we change topics now?
Even Coach is bored with this discussion.
“They gained little while everyone else was doing it wrong.”
I just don’t follow, brother. I would argue that the first team to make a change (for the better) gains the biggest advantage.
Babe Ruth was a huge change to the game, and the teams who had him reaped the rewards, far more than the later teams and players who adapted. One guy hitting bombs among 200 guys hitting singles is probably the biggest advantage a single player has ever provided his team in the history of the sport.
The closest I can come to your point is that if nobody changes, nobody gains (or loses). Sure that’s true; it’s also rather obvious. But, how can the first team to change not gain anything?
And, if they don’t gain anything, why would they be forced to change when other teams did? Those two ideas are in direct contrast with one another. I’m not sure how you don’t see that.
March 26th, 20124:41 pm
MF -Before I go and look, I bet Oscar Gamble is in there.
March 26th, 20124:43 pm
“the 3 goals that the 4 year old scored in her first soccer game… against boys, some of which were twice her size.”
This. Talk about this. Any groin shots? I know she plays dirty. Headers with elbows, is what I’m saying.
March 26th, 20124:44 pm
But I’m sure there are some examples in the business world where someone did something different and it was looked down upon because it wasn’t the way things had always been done.
Sorry, man, such things only get “looked down upon” when they fail. In the business world, we’d eat our young if they didn’t get the job done and mate with a rhino, if that’s what it took. Nobody much cares what it looks like, as long as the bottom line is in black ink. Baseball isn’t that much different.
March 26th, 20124:47 pm
jimmy, did you lose your J?
March 26th, 20124:57 pm
“so teams are making their closer a lesser pitcher so that they can use their best pitcher once in a while in an earlier inning without the media knowing that is what is happening, at the cost of having to use that lesser pitcher every time the need a closer in a late close game?”
noleee, no. Such teams aren’t intentionally tried to hide the fact that they aren’t assigning the closer role to the best pitcher. They are simply naming a closer and giving some reason that sounds good so they don’t have to hear questions about who is the closer and if they are going with a committee and all of that sort of BS.
And these teams don’t see it as much of a cost that they are using merely a good or decent reliever over their best reliever because these teams realize that you don’t need your best reliever, a great one, to get three outs in one inning. Even one that is merely good or decent will succeed in getting three outs a vast majority of the time.
Case in point: Joe Borowski, 2007 Indians. Saved 45 games. Only blew 8 saves and and lost 4 games in which he came in in a non-save situation.
He had a 5.07 ERA, out of 11 qualifiers he gave up the 4th-most HR/9 on the team, gave up the 6th-most BB/9, was 4th in SO/9 (behind three other relievers), and was 4th in SO/BB behind two other relievers. Oh, and the Indians won 96 games.
March 26th, 20124:58 pm
This. Talk about this. Any groin shots? I know she plays dirty. Headers with elbows, is what I’m saying.
She did make a boy cry right before halftime. It was actually really funny… she was standing midfield, all by herself, jumping up and down (for no reason at all) with her back to the play when the ball squirted out of the scrum and went right to her. She heard me yelling for her to turn around, did so, stopped it, turned, and kicked it into the goal (keep in mind they play on a tiny field with no goalies).
A boy on the other team tried to catch up to it but it crossed the line just ahead of him. He fell to the ground in a full-on sob as the 4 year old resumed jumping up and down, not because she scored a goal, but because it was what she was doing before the ball got to her… didn’t even realize what she had done.
and mate with a rhino, if that’s what it took.
My, oh my. scoots dredging up college memories. Keystone Light and Lord Calvert Canadian Whiskey…it just ain’t worth it kids.
March 26th, 20124:59 pm
ncscoots, sure it is. Teams bat players like Nick Punto in the second spot and they use their best relievers to get three outs when they already have leads, sometimes leads of 3 runs.
March 26th, 20125:07 pm
“Coach” is Right, The Bullpen hsa HOW MANY Guys Sttin out there, and Venters gets Over-used, i don’t care What he Pitches, the point is we have No-brainers for Mgmt, They’ve Got 6-7 Guys out there Gettin Paid Milllions to watc hOne guy get Pummeled because Coaches are BLIND, and Have ZERO for Baseball IQ.
March 26th, 20125:12 pm
ncscoots, in the business world, there is not a strain of anti-intellectualism that prevents business from doing what is optimal. In baseball, the folks who study the game in an in-depth way are often frowned upon, at least by certain segments of fans and the media and by some coaches, managers and players. Luckily many owners realize hiring an intelligent front office from a world that knows how to study things in an in-depth way will actually lead to more wins.
In the business world, hiring a Harvard MBA or someone with that kind of intelligence is of course applauded. In the baseball world, there is still a large segment of fans, media, players, coaches, managers, who see hiring someone of that level of education and intellectualism as “geeky.”
Baseball and sports in general are vastly different from the business world in that regard, to a significant segment of baseball insiders and fans.
March 26th, 20125:19 pm
Sorry, your 5:12 is wrong on too many levels to even address.
March 26th, 20125:21 pm
Last post on the subject,
So what you are saying is the owners are smart enough to hire bright educated folks, but are so scared of the media that they do not implement the ideas that there smart folks have?
Again Epic logic fail.
March 26th, 20125:22 pm
enuff for me on that topic, at my age you can stand only so much fun…
March 26th, 20125:24 pm
So how about that Ace Jair Jurrjens dealing yesterday? Love the guy!
March 26th, 20125:25 pm
I can still remember the time I tried to innovate in the workplace… I rolled my chair into the Monday morning company meeting so I could be comfortable and focus on the content rather than how tired my legs were getting after an hour of standing in the same place… I was fired soon after.
“Ahead of my time” sounds so much better than “incompetent”.
March 26th, 20125:26 pm
we have to remember who has was pitching against, but it was encouraging
March 26th, 20125:29 pm
flange1, they implement plenty of their ideas. They just don’t implement every single one that is going to cause a fiasco within their organization or within the industry as a whole, that are not going to give them that much of an edge. They realize that causing turmoil could be as big a negative as employing slightly less-than-ideal strategy.
March 26th, 20125:30 pm
“we have to remember who has was pitching against, but it was encouraging”
Well that is about the talent level we are pitching against in the month of April so we should be good to go.
March 26th, 20125:31 pm
I’m not sure that any other team is as bad as the ’stros
March 26th, 20125:32 pm
Remember this winter when someone here argued that Terdoslavich and Simmons weren’t much in terms of prospects, basically dismissing Terdo because of his age in Class A and Simmons because of his lack of walks and low OBP?
Haven’t heard much from that corner recently.
March 26th, 20125:33 pm
Terdo and Sim will never make it as decent regulars, just ask KLaw….
March 26th, 20125:34 pm
no self control at all
March 26th, 20125:38 pm
Who else is going to post in the pre-rooster a.m. besides some po’ zest man? I ‘ve been zest ever since my friend flange1 said he had a scratch handicap. Buck a hole, I’m thinking. Maybe $2, if the pre-dawn carpet putting helps. Driving me nuts. I’m sure he’s got me on length, so I need a short tight course and a hot putter.
March 26th, 20125:39 pm
load your couch on the golf cart, it will give you confidence….
March 26th, 20125:48 pm
It has nothing whatsoever to do with (perceived) intelligence or with geekiness. It’s all about having differing ideas of what works and doesn’t work. A theory is just that – a theory and how smart you (think) you are does not make the theory viable. Much of what you preach has absolutely no track record to back it up and just because you theorize it does, does not make it so.
March 26th, 20125:49 pm
March 26th, 2012
No thanks. Eerie thought finding my balls under cushions
I’m a scratch player too, I scratch around in the sand traps all day long
March 26th, 20125:52 pm
DOB – Nor have we heard what a waste picking Minor with the seventh pick in the draft was.
March 26th, 20125:56 pm
Minor will never be an impact pitcher, just ask KLaw what a wasted pick that was.
Shoulda gone for upside, middle of the rotation guys are a dime a dozen
Gilmartin was a sucko pick too….
Haven’t gotten update from Braves yet on Chipper, but he did make it through surgery fine. Texted him while ago and asked if everything went alright. His reply: So far, so good. Little groggy, but…
DOB, I think with Simmons it was more of a wait and see what he can do at levels higher than High-A. I think we haven’t heard much because we still don’t know much. I’ve heard plenty, like folks at Baseball America and Keith Law, argue that Pastornicky should get the job over Simmons.
With Terdolavich, I think opinions are still the same. If he tears up Triple-A for a few months, that’s when opinions will start to change.
I know that closer are usually paid millions more than set-up men and middle relievers, right? So I am betting that owners and GMs are paying the highest dollar’s for the best relievers. I am going to bet that no teams are going to pay extra millions so they can …
“simply naming a closer and giving some reason that sounds good so they don’t have to hear questions about who is the closer”….
I am guessing that the smartest baseball folks doing this for a living are paying closers the most because they are the best relievers. Just seems logical….
March 26th, 20125:58 pm
We need a new blog. This one is nearing the wear and funk of a pair of nolie’s under britches.
March 26th, 20125:59 pm
logic will get you few fans around here Colorado
March 26th, 20126:00 pm
I’s still s’posed to be wearing underbritches even though I’m retired? hmmm, no wonder……
March 26th, 20126:01 pm
noleee and Lew, so Minor is all of the sudden a number one or number two simply because he’s going to make the rotation this year?
Coach ( 2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)
Remember this winter when someone here argued that Terdoslavich and Simmons.
I’m fairly sure the Braves front office is reluctant to start the arbitration clock for either player.
March 26th, 20126:02 pm
I scratch around in the sand traps all day long.</i.
Oh, I should call you Catmandoo.
March 26th, 20126:03 pm
why did you include me in that Shaun? I’ve never said any such thing, ever
March 26th, 20126:06 pm
I’m gettin better though I got some tips from my kitty just last week
SAhaun – HTF did you come up with THAT interpretation?
Only a fool would have thought he WOULDN’T make the rotation with Hudson out AND needing a fifth starter. His spring performance showed that MAYBE (Likely) the Braves didn’t waste a pick.
No one has annointed him an ACE.
What a schmuck you can be.
March 26th, 20126:08 pm
so Minor is all of the sudden a number one or number two simply because he’s going to make the rotation this year?
Depending on injuries he could very well find himself pitching that high in the order… so technically, he could be.
March 26th, 20126:10 pm
not really what is meant by a number 1, but I’m thinking hoping you know that
March 26th, 20126:14 pm
Stuff that makes you say hmmmmmmmmm!!!! How many times in their careers did Glavine, Smoltz, Hudson or Hanson pitch as a 3, 4, or 5?????
March 26th, 20126:17 pm
Braves notes: Chipper has knee ’scoped, expects to resume baseball activities next week; Hanson cruises through Triple-A lineup
March 26th, 20126:21 pm
any updates on possible LF acquisitions?
March 26th, 20126:24 pm
Not enough is mentioned about the wear and tear an athlete’s body takes. I remember a 60 Minutes program showing Jim Otto of the Raiders and what he had to do to get up every morning.
Yet he is also the quintessential cautionary tale, a reminder that every second of sports glory carries an enormous risk. Just by looking at him, no one could imagine the excruciating pain of the last 40 years
Read more: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/11/01/SPDG13RQ5Q.DTL#ixzz1qGQrWtqK
March 26th, 20126:34 pm
There is a report on mlbtraderumors that FW was in contact with the Padres about Will Venable. The potential tradey would have been Medlen. Please DOB tell me that the Braves are not considering trading Medlen. PLEASE?
March 26th, 20126:40 pm
This news is over 5 hours old, but I’m guessing it still holds
The Braves approached the Padres about Will Venable’s availability but were told he’s not available.
It comes as no surprise that a team would try to pry the underrated Venable from San Diego, or that the Friars would rebuff them. The 29-year-old batted .246/.310/.395 with nine homers, 44 RBI, 26 stolen bases and a .704 OPS over 411 plate appearances last season. If this is the year Venable gets 450 at-bats for the first time, he’ll likely steal over 30 bases with double digit home runs. We don’t like to read into spring training numbers, but it’s worth noting that Venable has posted a .948 OPS and stolen six bases in six attempts. Mar. 26 – 12:34 pm et
March 26th, 20126:42 pm
I just read the story about how BRAVES will do in the East division. If we go 6-6 in our first 12 games against weak teams, just write off the season. We need at the very least a 8-4 start against those teams.
March 26th, 20126:43 pm
Jim Bowden said:
@JimBowdenESPNxm: John Schuerholz just told us that Simmons is definitely still in the picture at SS with Pastornicky and that Wren, Gonzalez, Cox & staff will decide
March 26th, 20126:45 pm
George was a Disney story?
March 26th, 20126:48 pm
Good that BOBBY COX still has some input on what does on with BRAVES.
March 26th, 20126:53 pm
I am getting ready for BAYLOR vs TENN game, it should be a good one. Have a good one or two tonight y’all, night all.
March 26th, 20127:06 pm
Rajai Davis OF Toronto Blue Jays seems out of a job with Thames, Rasmus, Bautista and Francisco on board. Good base stealing speed, RH hitter, plays all 3 spots. Hmmmmmmm?
March 26th, 20127:08 pm
with that early schedule, Braves could be looking to repeat the 1982 start. It would not be outrageous to see the Braves sweep the first twelve.
March 26th, 20127:14 pm
Ask the Cards about writing off a season after a bad start.
March 26th, 20127:17 pm
no to Rajai.
Venable has too low a BA for my taste though that might come up some away from SD. With all the pitching questions we have right now, I would be very hesitant to trade Meds
March 26th, 20127:19 pm
I’m telling you, we need to take a real look at Gerardo Parra.
March 26th, 20127:20 pm
I’d like to see Parraz get a chance
Owl Hunter why would I want to ask the Cards about anything?
D’Backs don’t have room for him, he can start, and be a great spark off the bench when Chipper comes back.
March 26th, 20127:21 pm
Because they won the World Series after playing poorly for the early part of the season. No way should anyone write off a season after 12 games.
March 26th, 20127:22 pm
I’m sorry Billy. That was for George. I read the wrong name.
March 26th, 20127:23 pm
noleee Parraz is interesting, but I fear for concussions from fly balls knocking him unconscious because he hasn’t figured out how that contraption on his hand works
Parrais a 683 career hitter away from that launching pad.
March 26th, 20127:24 pm
There, now I’m just another four letter word.
March 26th, 20127:25 pm
683? I’ll take it!
Parraz’s minor league fielding number are ok in RF so LF should be no problem
March 26th, 20127:27 pm
I’ll pass on giving up anybody to get a 683 hitter
Speaking of closers who only wanted to pitch in save situations, how about Bob Wickman turning into a pout pout fish when Cox called on him in the 8th inning.
Blub. Bluuuub. Bluuuuuuuuuuuub.
Too right handed Diaz would have to go
I’l still take Parra as a 4th OF over anything we have right now.
March 26th, 20127:28 pm
I thought you typo’ed his BA.
March 26th, 20127:29 pm
how can we be too RHed when we suck against lefties?
and they are pretty unlikely to eat another 2 mil to get rid of Matt
I love Diaz, but he has no place on this team this season.
March 26th, 20127:30 pm
I wondered if that was it OH
March 26th, 20127:31 pm
Hillbilly, March 26th, 2012, 3:08 pm … “abwright, Great Arkansas minds think alike. (see my 2:25 on pg. 19)”
That’s the second time I got scooped today! (The first was Murph on Chipper’s knee-jerk sending him to the DL.)
At least I’m getting scooped by clever folks. If I could just speed up my funny muscles…
Either way, I think Parra can be had for little. If we were looking at Venable, Parra is logical.
March 26th, 20127:32 pm
I’d just as soon give Durango a shot and save salary and a player
March 26th, 20127:33 pm
I’m more into Parra for defense and ability to play CF anyway.
With a line of .292 .357 .427 with 8 homeruns 46 rbis and 15 stolen bases…….Parra may be more than a 4th outfielder in our outfield…
I like Durango and Parraz, but we already have a lot of unproven players.
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