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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
4,462 comments Add your comment
Ease® in Sandy Springs
January 25th, 2012
2:57 pm
Sorry BAS, that was probably just fake Ease…He is like these un-intelligent, non reason, evidence, logic thinkers that Shaun seems to compliment with the back of his hand.
Lazy too, that numbletard.
Ease® in Sandy Springs
January 25th, 2012
2:58 pm
First!!
Efrim
January 25th, 2012
2:58 pm
and a player of Heyward’s pedigree might decide that he’s willing to take his chances on making it to the free agent market.
It’s possible, but I’d bet a five year deal through 2017 eating up two of his free agent years would be something he’d be willing to do – somethin similar to what Justin Upton received. He’ll still be 28 years old that offseason and will strike a huge deal.
But we’re getting ahead of ourselves – the mane needs to produce at a high level this year if he wants that sort of offer.
Ease® in Sandy Springs
January 25th, 2012
2:58 pm
And on and on and on…
abwright
January 25th, 2012
2:59 pm
cabravesfan, January 25th, 2012, 1:56 pm … “I should start charging a royalty for every time someone uses that name
*Starts looking up copyright laws…
You need to trademark it. Then defend the trademark from folks who go
CABrave, CABrave, CABrave, …
else the trademark will return to the public domain.
DAP
January 25th, 2012
2:59 pm
tommyp Braves won’t commit 5 years (or 9 like Fielder got!)….and the big FA’s always get at least that much.
lowe went for 4. some of the guys mentioned might go for 4.
RC
January 25th, 2012
3:00 pm
cabravesfan,
Fair point on breaking the rules of the game. The counter arguement would be that greenies were against the rules as well, yet nobody seems to have an issue with the fact that many HOF players have admitted to using them (including Hank Aaron).
My personal take is that if baseball was doing nothing to enforce the drug policy, it’s hard to penalize a player for violating it. It’s possible they weren’t even aware of it, considering how little effort baseball put into policing itself. At the time that Bonds and others allegedly used these substances there was no drug testing in baseball, and no suspension or penalties if a player was found to be using something. With this being the case, it seems to me that it’s unfair to hold people to a higher standard retroactively. It’d be like if they lowered the speed limit by 25 MPH, and then went back and wrote tickets for people who drove faster than that a month ago.
However, I am completely ok with holding current suspensions against players. There has been adequate education at this point on the consquences within the game, as well as testing. It would be very hard for someone to come up with a reasonable excuse for failing a test from this point forward.
Jimmy
January 25th, 2012
3:00 pm
“reason, evidence, logic” – Shaun
This is a baseball blog. Everyone has their own thoughts, ideas and opinons.
What you are saying is that there is only one right opinon and that is yours because you have applied “reason, evidence, logic” and have the answer.
I must state it again..it’s baseball.
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:00 pm
abwright-
I actually only meant the “Tom and cabravesfan Show” but maybe I should trademark the whole thing…I do know so me good patent lawyers
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
3:02 pm
cab @2:47 & RC @2:49 – You both make excellent points…Real problem with the selection process, is that it’s left pretty much up to the individual voter to decide what is relevant/important, and what is not. Also, the use of PEDs is pure speculation in most cases.
BTW cab, of the “sins” you listed (including use of PEDs) only one breaks an actual commandment, for whatever that is worth to you. Don’t be mistaken…I in no way condone the use of PEDs).
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
3:03 pm
RC, even “against the rules of the game” isn’t the issue. Gaylord Perry is in the Hall. Certain things that are against the rules will not keep players out of the Hall. Only PED’s.
I suspect PED’s are treated differently from doctoring baseballs or drinking because many writers feel it’s a way to make up for their failings in uncovering PED use among players. It’s a way to keep the focus off of their failings in uncovering the “Steroid Era.” This just makes the writers look worse. If they just admit their failings, as some players and some other writers have done, instead of trying to play the roles of moralists, they would come out looking a lot better.
abwright
January 25th, 2012
3:03 pm
DAP, January 25th, 2012, 2:30 pm … “if you want to see the ATL skyline, youd have to tear down the screen.”
Howsaboutthis then … build up the Atlanta skyline so that it shows above the screen! Would that get higher attendance?
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:05 pm
RC-
I would only weigh PED use for those that either admitted it or, like in the case of Bonds, there was more than just a name on a piece of paper. Mere suspicion (or wild accusations thrown around to sell books) would not be enough for me to keep someone out. Because, like you, I don’t think it’s fair to judge only on allegations. But I know others feel differently, and that is ok. I don’t have to agree with them, but they are certainly entitled to vote the way they see fit.
Efrim
January 25th, 2012
3:05 pm
Swisher will go for 4 years. I’d be surprised if anyone other than Ethier, Bourn and Upton got 5 years. Hamilton isn’t getting to free agency now that Fielder didn’t sign with Texas.
DAP
January 25th, 2012
3:05 pm
BAS You mockingly call him a genius in your first response, and it’s off to the races.
yeah a little biting sarcasm there. you have to admit, thats pretty tame compared alot of stuff thrown around. i mean, sarcastically calling someone a genius isnt out of bounds, is it?
abwright
January 25th, 2012
3:05 pm
If there were a pod-cast show called “The Tom and cabravesfan show” I’d prolly watch an episode or two.
I watched a bunch of eps of “The Great White North.” I imagine it would be something like that, except for all the spitting.
Murph
January 25th, 2012
3:05 pm
I suspect PED’s are treated differently from doctoring baseballs or drinking because many writers feel it’s a way to make up for their failings in uncovering PED use among players. It’s a way to keep the focus off of their failings in uncovering the “Steroid Era.”
That is one of the most retarded things you’ve ever written on here.
Efrim
January 25th, 2012
3:06 pm
I doubt Victorino gets more than 4 years either. The youngest ones ofthat group are Bourn, Ethier and Upton, thus they are more attractive on a longer term deal.
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:07 pm
How are the writers responsible for not doing anything about PEDs? Baseball writers are not investigative reporters. Their job is to cover baseball teams. It is BASEBALL’s job to do more about PEDs.
DAP
January 25th, 2012
3:08 pm
abwright, another flaw in the thought is that people actually want to see the atlanta skyline. its not bad, but where the ballpark is, there just alot of aesthetically pleasing scenery around. id rather see the screen.
now, if stone mountain could be in the scenery, it would be different.
jeffrey doo doo
January 25th, 2012
3:08 pm
I suspect PED’s are treated differently from doctoring baseballs or drinking because many writers feel it’s a way to make up for their failings in uncovering PED use among players
Except drinking doesn’t make you a better baseball player (except in your head)
nolie
January 25th, 2012
3:09 pm
cheating is cheating. the fact that technology has created a more effective way of cheating has nothing to do with the moral issues. a cheater is a cheater. those using speed in my day were using the most advanced way they had of cheating at the time just like PED users were using the most advanced way that they had available. any other way of looking at it is disingenuous to any moralist
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
3:09 pm
I think we’ve laid out the argument pretty clearly – they were proven to use performance enhancers to give them an edge over other players. Hence, their numbers are tainted. Cheating on your wife doesn’t give you a competitive advantage (that I know of)
There are players in the Hall who did things to enhance performance and give them an edge over other players. So that part of the argument fails.
The numbers that the voters use to determine which players should or should not get in always often tainted to some degree or another. For example, at one time, players didn’t have to hit at night and they faced only white players. The baseball was made differently at different points in history. The numbers have always been tainted. So that aspect of the argument fails.
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
3:09 pm
Real problem with the selection process, is that it’s left pretty much up to the individual voter to decide what is relevant/important
Me, I don’t see that as a problem,, though. You have be a member of the BBWAA for ten years, right? It’s not as if they’re letting half-wit blog posters in there to cast ballots, LOL.
Now, you might say that there are members of the BBWAA who might rate lower than half-wit posters, and you might be right. However, they’ve managed to get through the vetting process, make it to the bigs, so to speak. They’ve earned the right to cast foolish ballots, if they so desire. You’d hope that the balance of the voters will overcome the foolish minority. If they can’t, then one must consider the possibility that the minority is not so foolish.
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:09 pm
raleighbravefan-
truth be told, the only one that bothers me is people being a******s. Other than that, it’s your life- if you want to ruin it, nothing I or anyone else can say will prevent it.
flange1
January 25th, 2012
3:10 pm
I think the writers that don’t vote for potential PED users for the HOF believe that PED users cheated.
And you don’t reward cheaters. Simple as that.
Jimmy
January 25th, 2012
3:11 pm
Shaun, as you stated, Gaylord Perry is in the HOF.
But the real and honest answer about these PED players is that they “broke” established and worshipped records. Perry didn’t break any major records.
First Big Mac broke the Roger Maris record. Along comes Picnic Shoulder Head Bonds and breaks that one. Still later, he “surpasses” Hank’s mark. That is the difference.
If McGwire only hit 60 homers that year (and Sosa less), and Bonds finished with 698 homers, there would be no problem.
Can you see that point?
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
3:11 pm
The Tom and cab show would likely be a lot more entertaining than most of the crap offered these days.
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:12 pm
And this is where I back away from that line of posts.
nolie
January 25th, 2012
3:12 pm
they rewarded speed users. that was cheating too
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
3:12 pm
Ease, thanks. Feels like home.
DAP, I do worse all the time. I just think it’s easy to go too far. Slippery-slope, and all that.
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:13 pm
abwright-
One of the fun features on my new computer is the ability to easily create and post podcasts. Might be a little tricky getting Tom on camera, but he could always be on the phone…might have to change it to the “Tom & VJ & cabravesfan Show” though
jeffrey doo doo
January 25th, 2012
3:14 pm
I quit.
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
3:15 pm
The Tom and cab show would likely be a lot more entertaining than most of the crap offered these days.
We need a “treatment” for the show, don’t we, cab? Before we can start hustling for syndication? Let’s get that done before I call Lifetime.
If it doesn’t work out for a series, amybe we can get a Liftetime movie, instead. Maybe Janine Turner for you. You know, with a dye job, natch.
abwright
January 25th, 2012
3:15 pm
DAP, January 25th, 2012, 3:08 pm … “now, if stone mountain could be in the scenery, it would be different.”
Maybe they can set the screen to show Stone Mountain.
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:16 pm
ncscoots-
Janine Turner? Dude, she’s nearly 17 years OLDER than I am!
DAP
January 25th, 2012
3:18 pm
shaun The numbers have always been tainted. So that aspect of the argument fails.
to you it does. we cant agree here. agree to disagree…at least untl HOF voting happens again next year?
abwright
January 25th, 2012
3:18 pm
nolie, January 25th, 2012, 3:09 pm … “… those using speed in my day were using the most advanced way they had of cheating at the time just like PED users … “
Now the fetish about “team speed” by so many on here makes sense. They’re hoping to score greenies at the ball park.
I thought it was all about being fast (a thing which McCann isn’t).
Jimmy
January 25th, 2012
3:18 pm
jeffrey doo doo – No please, please stay. Please? We need more doo doo on here. Please stay.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
3:19 pm
How are the writers responsible for not doing anything about PEDs? Baseball writers are not investigative reporters. Their job is to cover baseball teams. It is BASEBALL’s job to do more about PEDs.
No one said it was the writers’ responsibility, although I would argue that if a baseball writer is working for a major newspaper or news outlet and has some info on a player using PED’s, it is his job to report it.
My point is the writers’ guilt in some cases is likely pushing them towards taking a strong stance on PED’s, as it relates to Hall of Fame voting, while brushing aside other forms of cheating or moral failings of players.
ncscoots, there are some Hall of Fame voters who haven’t covered the game in 10 years or more. I do think there needs to be a more intelligent group of people to decide on Hall of Fame. People who more resemble front office types, who know how to evaluate performance, rather than people who merely cover the games. Especially writers who cover specific teams and have covered specific teams for the bulk of their careers. It would be hard for a person not to have some biases if, say, he or she had covered the Mets for 30 years.
The voters should be a group of people who know how to truly evaluate performances and value of players, like a front office would, a group of people that does its best to weed out biases and subjectivity from evaluating players and deciding who belongs in the Hall.
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
3:19 pm
“she’s nearly 17 years OLDER than I”
scoots-time. Like DOB-math, but different. Movie might even be a talkie…
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
3:20 pm
Maybe they can set the screen to show Stone Mountain.
Geebus, if it ever gets to the point where ballparks show holograms of the skyine, instead of the actual skyline, I think I’ll just let nolie put me down like a broke mule. Life as I want to know it would be over, LOL.
They’d probably be flashing the players’ WAR and wOBA up on the hologram by that time, too.
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
3:22 pm
So they feel guilt for something they were not responsible for, to summarize your first two paragraphs?
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
3:22 pm
cab, sorry. I misspoke. Did I say Janine Turner? I meant Jeannine, uh, ah…well, somebody else, certainly. Just get that treatment to me, will ya?
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
3:24 pm
ncscoots-
I think I will start with the podcast before I make my small screed debut….
abwright
January 25th, 2012
3:25 pm
The only comment I have to make regarding some PEDs versus doctoring a ball or using other drugs is that it changed the physical structure of the player. The logical conclusion to use of PEDs is to eventually move on to cyborgs. Don’t want little Johnny replacing his legs with robot legs to be a better baseball player.
Regardless, cheating should be policed and kept to a minimum. The only difference in grade I can see is that “super-cheating” distorts the game, whereas “minor-cheating” doesn’t.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
3:28 pm
DAP, no, the numbers have clearly been tainted in some way or another, throughout the history of the game. That’s a fact. Hitting 30 homers in 1918 wasn’t the same as hitting 30 homers in 1958, nor was it the same as hitting 30 homers in 1978 or 1998. And I doubt most of the guys who want to keep Bonds out because his numbers are tainted, would keep someone like Jimmie Foxx out because he came along after the dead-ball era and after the spitball was made illegal.
The game has never been pure. Let’s stop acting as if PED’s are the first thing to ruin the purity of the game and the numbers.
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
3:29 pm
think I will start with the podcast before I make my small screed debut
Think big, or live small, babe.
But I accede to your choice and wish you the best in your endeavor.
Gotta go, got Murph on the other line with a concept, something to do with sopapillas and chimpanzees and hair, or some such. Figure I can get 13 episodes out of that, easy.
Lew
January 25th, 2012
3:30 pm
Al Lang Stadium in St. Pete has a great view of Tampa Bay and is a great place to catch a Spring Training game, but I’ve never seen it sold out.
You go to a game to watch the game and not the skyline.
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
3:30 pm
“Let’s stop acting as if PED’s are the first thing to ruin the purity of the game and the numbers.”
Why is this position any less valid:
Let’s stop acting as if a PEDer left out of the HOF will be the first thing to ruin the purity of the game and the numbers”
Bat Masterson
January 25th, 2012
3:31 pm
But, I don’t think it’s an issue so black/white that we can’t bicker over a little grey. You mockingly call him a genius in your first response, and it’s off to the races _ Bay Area Steve
I didn’t notice DAP saying that but I’m not sure it would have changed my response. What got me rolling was his “I’m not going to spend my time explaining supply and demand to you and DAP”. I know he was not responding to me, still…………
At any rate I did say his argument had some merit. I’ve made it myself, broadly, when arguing about attendance with others. Mainly along the lines of if Atlanta was playing in a 37,000 seat park, putting 32,000 a game in the seats would not look to bad, maybe even that attendance would increase. But always with the caveat that attendance could very well go down, because some people might not come at all if they could not come over the weekends. That’s why I told him to fund a study.
I did go back and scan his link, too. And from a quick look it appears that almost all of the heavily attended games were Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.
I thought the guy was being an ass, and I still think he was the Mobile Bay Bear, too.
Murph
January 25th, 2012
3:33 pm
I think that’s why most news writers around the world were so hard on Japan following Pearl Harbor. It’s not that they were upset about the attack, it’s that they felt guilty because they didn’t uncover the secret plot earlier when it was right under their noses.
I mean, it’s pretty obvious, when looking back, that Japan was up to something.
Bat Masterson
January 25th, 2012
3:37 pm
to make the blog a place of torment and ridicule for you every time you return.
For Shaun?
Nah, sure he can be a real pain but then I’ll just ignore him…………….. Now Ronald Millsaps? I’m all for burning that perverted SOB down to the ground every time he rears his ugly head.
MFin04
January 25th, 2012
3:44 pm
Two cool quotes from the Pastornicky article:
How good a base-stealer do you think you can be at the big-league level?
“Pretty good. I’ve definitely picked the brains of some good base stealers. I think I’m pretty good on the bases, I’m pretty fast and my speed’s gotten better this offseason. I’ve worked on my jumps, and hopefully in camp I’ll get to talk to Michael Bourn and get some tips that he uses.”
Jack Wilson to Pastornicky:
“He mentioned something about coming out there to work out with him. I didn’t know how serious he was, but we stayed in touch and when he signed [with the Braves] he said ‘Come out, you’ve got a job to win.’ I said let’s do it; can’t turn that down”
Murph
January 25th, 2012
3:44 pm
We all have our own Ronald Millsaps to fight, Bat. For some, fear of public speaking might be their Ronald Millsaps. For others, literacy might be their Ronald Millsaps.
For me, my Ronald Millsaps is a balding guys with Asperger’s Syndrome who plays a mean clarinet and goes by the blog moniker of Shaun.
Sopheee
January 25th, 2012
3:45 pm
Thanks for the Pastornicky piece, DOB.
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
3:47 pm
Fair enough, Bat. I think the “I’m not going to waste my time” line irks you more so than me, but I’ve certainly responded with worse. As far as “Mobile Bay Bear,” agreed. Best part of the whole thing, by far.
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
3:47 pm
That’s why I told him to fund a study.
If the Braves don’t have dedicated staff to analyze every tiny piece of data related to attendance, then they farm it out. But, in no universe inhabited by humans does the Braves’ FO not have detailed information about who makes up their attendance, what they spend, how many games they attend, what promotions they liked/disliked/ignored, how far they travel, how they travel, what inning they leave, and every other bleeping thing. You do not make financial projections covering millions of dollars without a clear picture of your customers and revenue base.
I know Bat knows this, hence, “fund a study”. Roberts, and most of the attendance-bashers, must think that the budget meeting goes, “Hey, we might do 2.3 million this year. Heck, we might even do 2.7! Whadda you guys think?” In reality, it’s more “here’s the number we’ll hit, plus-or-minus 100000; here’s the revenue generated, plus-or-minus $100000. Here are our projected expenses, plus a small reserve. Make the budget.”
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
3:49 pm
But the real and honest answer about these PED players is that they “broke” established and worshipped records. Perry didn’t break any major records.
Jimmy, so writers will keep Bonds out because he broke the homerun record, an established and worshiped record? That’s part of the problem. The writers don’t realize that context matters in the numbers and many can’t or don’t bother to adjust for context. Many writers don’t realize that numbers, insofar as the numbers they look at and how they use the numbers, have never been sacred.
This is why we need more of a front office type approach in selecting Hall of Famers. Many writers will look at Babe Ruth and see 714 homers, a record when he retired. People who evaluate players as modern front offices evaluate players, see Babe Ruth in terms of what he did to help create runs for his team. Homeruns a part of that but his Hall of Fame case isn’t and shouldn’t just be about him breaking and holding a sacred record for a long time. It should mostly be about him being the preeminent offensive force in the history of the game in terms of doing everything in his power to create runs for his team. The record is an important cultural achievement and should be considered when a player is up for induction but, at the end of the day, it’s mostly about helping the team win, which is about putting runs on the scoreboard and/or preventing opponents from scoring. You don’t get a full grasp of this by just looking at whether a player broke a sacred record or reached certain arbitrary milestones like 3,000 hits or 500 homers or 300 wins.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
3:52 pm
Murph, your analogy would work if writers were hard on Japan but easy on Germany.
RC
January 25th, 2012
3:54 pm
Murph, your analogy would work if writers were hard on Japan but easy on Germany.
Have seen any of the media from that day and age? They kind of WERE harder on Japan than Germany.
RC
January 25th, 2012
3:55 pm
Germans were viewed as misguided. Japanesse were viewed as subhuman.
Bat Masterson
January 25th, 2012
3:55 pm
Have at it, Murph.
nolie and I will take care of Ronald.
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
3:56 pm
DOB mentioned the “clicks” here on the old blog…so that got me thinking…which ones do I belong to. Definitely the old guy click, and the glass is (at least) half full click.
I usually consider myself in the “voice of reason” click…but then so does Don, Shaun, Ronald M, etc., etc…and we obviously can’t all be right about that. (I probably should cut Shaun some slack with that list).
I’m in the “appreciate a good sense of humor” click, but not the “personally attack someone just to be funny” one, although sometimes it’s tempting, and I do fall short.
I’m definately in the “will talk about food, especially BBQ” click.
flange1
January 25th, 2012
3:56 pm
Shaun,
What you are asking for is probably a good thing, to have qualified people vote for baseball awards. It would be nice if there was a methodology used to a vote too.
But we all know that is not going to happen, right?
Murph
January 25th, 2012
3:59 pm
Yes, let’s debate the merits of WWII combatants and the reporters who covered them now, shall we?
RC
January 25th, 2012
4:01 pm
Yes, let’s debate the merits of WWII combatants and the reporters who covered them now, shall we?
The Red Baron was never proven to have used PEDs, but he was just a little too good at flying planes, you know? No Hall vote from me.
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
4:03 pm
What you are asking for is probably a good thing, to have qualified people vote for baseball awards. It would be nice if there was a methodology used to a vote too
Define “qualified”, LOL. Or describe a methodology. My guess is that Shaun could do both and have us all run screaming from the room.
But I bet Tim Raines would get in, LOL.
Bat Masterson
January 25th, 2012
4:03 pm
BAS_
The Bear bit had me laughing, too.
As far as being irked, yeah somewhat, some days I pound the keys and hit submit, some days I hit delete. No rhyme or reason to it that I can see. :shrug:
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
4:05 pm
The Red Baron was never proven to have used PEDs, but he was just a little too good at flying planes, you know? No Hall vote from me.
“When in doubt, keep him out.” Me and Bob Costas and ignorant BBWAA geezers the world over go with that one.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
4:05 pm
RC, oh, so the writers of that era were like many BBWAA members who see the splinter in one group of players’ eyes but don’t see the plank in the eyes of players already in the Hall?
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
4:07 pm
As far as being irked, yeah somewhat, some days I pound the keys and hit submit, some days I hit delete. No rhyme or reason to it that I can see.
There you go. Some days, you just spit on that pitch when it goes by. Other days, you want to loosen the top button and make Mr. Spaulding scream.
Murph
January 25th, 2012
4:09 pm
Please, we are no longer talking about the HoF. We are now discussing the biased writing of those who came out in force against Japan following the sneak attack of Pearl Harbor yet were happily eating schnitzel and wearing lederhosen despite Germany’s declaration of war against the US.
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
4:09 pm
Shaun – Perry was the first, and for a long time, the only pitcher to be the Cy Young winner in both leagues.
By the way, Gaylord and his brother Jim, as well as Billy Wynn, were all born in Williamston, NC, a town of less than 6000. Just a little ways down the road is Hertford, NC (pop less than 2200), where Catfish Hunter was born. …Just a little stupid trivia.
RC
January 25th, 2012
4:11 pm
RC, oh, so the writers of that era were like many BBWAA members who see the splinter in one group of players’ eyes but don’t see the plank in the eyes of players already in the Hall?
Without committing to an analogy THAT strong, I’ll simply say that every the media has ALWAYS had some bias to it, almost always reflecting to prejudices of society at that point in time. It’s usually not until years later when our sensabilities have changed that society is able to recognize it though.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
4:12 pm
ncscoots, I pretty much did define who some of us would feel are more qualified to vote on the Hall than many members of the current BBWAA. I would have a committee of people who view the game more like front office types rather than people who cover or covered games.
The front office types evaluate player performance in terms of what those performances did to increase the chances of their teams winning games, and they do their best to weed out biases. It’s all about how a player performed in terms of helping his team.
It’s hard for biases to not creep in when its a person’s job to cover a team and that person has been covering that team for 30 years. Also, a writer’s job is to simply write about what happened, what is going on and to keep the public aware of what is going on with the team or with the game.
The front office, analyst types actually evaluate players and judge players performance. They are used to that. They are not simply reporters, in essence.
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
4:12 pm
I don’t know about all this Germany/Japan stuff, but I’ll be damned before someone takes away my lederhosen.
RC
January 25th, 2012
4:12 pm
Bugs Bunny hated the Japanesse. He referred them with many inappropriate slurs.
Bat Masterson
January 25th, 2012
4:15 pm
Yeah, thats it, scoots
DogsBrekky
January 25th, 2012
4:15 pm
A bloody HUMUNGOUS turkey just attacked my car as I drove by down the main road here… What the eff do they feed those things, he was like a small horse in size, nasty blighter too
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
4:16 pm
A lot at work, concerning attitudes during WWII, not the least if which, in some cased, was racial prejudice. It was exacerbated by the fact that Asian Americans were much more easily recognized than German Americans.
Not saying that hatred for our enemies wasn’t justified and understandable, but many good American citizens got swept up in it undeservedly.
Bay Area Steve
January 25th, 2012
4:16 pm
“Bugs Bunny hated the Japanese”
Definitive proof, if there ever was. Game. Set. Match.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
4:17 pm
Murph, did you forget who brought up that analogy?
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
4:18 pm
RC – True. In fact, all of Hollywood got on the bandwagon. The nation has probably never been so united, before or since.
Bat Masterson
January 25th, 2012
4:18 pm
The front office, analyst types actually evaluate players and judge players performance. They are used to that. They are not simply reporters, in essence.
Okay I have not been following this closely, but what you are saying is, trust the people that hire managers that are to stupid to know how best to use relievers. Is that it?
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
4:19 pm
I would have a committee of people who view the game more like front office types rather than people who cover or covered games.
How big a committee? Who gets to select the committee? And who gets to select the guys who do select the committee? Or does Theo just make all the choices, and we go from there?
RC
January 25th, 2012
4:21 pm
RC – True. In fact, all of Hollywood got on the bandwagon. The nation has probably never been so united, before or since.
That’s what we need to get this country back on track, some good ole fashioned racisim!
(Just in case it’s not obvious, there is sarcasm in the above statement. I repeat: sarcasm.)
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
4:22 pm
Shaun – Gaylord Perry didn’t get in until after years of debate, and then by a slim margin. I was a big fan of the Giants, and Gaylord (good ole NC boy), Marichal, Willie McCovey, and of course, the Say Hay kid, who I reguard as the greatest all around player of all time.
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
4:23 pm
*Say Hey
DogsBrekky
January 25th, 2012
4:23 pm
raleighbrave – Japanese are still MUCH hated downunder. My ex wife’s grandpa was a POW as were many of my uncles and they really communicated real hatred towards them. When I went to live in Tokyo the grandpa wouldn’t talk to me for years… he kept saying “Why go and live with those !@#%$^& bastards etc. Ironically, by rote the Japanese people were always very nice to me but there is an underlying “racism” there against us that surfaces in many strange ways..
Murph
January 25th, 2012
4:25 pm
Murph, did you forget who brought up that analogy?
Much as you stare in the mirror in the mornings, wondering where it all went wrong, I too sometimes stare into the reflection of the Sprite Zero can beneath my monitor and wonder to myself, how could it be so right?
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
4:25 pm
DogsBrekky-
My family once had a GIANT Vulture fly into the side of our car- thing was just huge and ugly and nasty- it actually bounced off the car, off the ground, shook itself, and flew away. Was freaky…
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
4:26 pm
trust the people that hire managers that are to stupid to know how best to use relievers. Is that it?
I can see we are going to have to give some thought to criteria for the new HOF Committee. Obviously, we can have no front office type who has ever made a bad trade (for that, we’ll need a Bad Trade Committee, to determine what actually constitutes a Bad Trade); or fired a manager that he, the FO type, had anything to do with being hired (catastophic failure, there, showing thet the FO type’s judgment is sorely lacking); or got fired himself (by definition, could not make enough of the right decisions to maintain the status quo. Goner, fer sure).
These are just for starters, natch. I expect all of you to contribute, so that we have qualified people picking HOFers.
DogsBrekky
January 25th, 2012
4:27 pm
cabravesfan –
This Turkey could take on a big red Kangaroo and hold its own I suspect, heffer must have been at least 6 feet high
cabravesfan
January 25th, 2012
4:28 pm
DogsBrekky-
Too bad it didn’t die. I hear wild turkey is quite tasty…
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
4:30 pm
Bat Masterson, they don’t have much to choose from when it comes to managers. They have to pick guys who have the respect of players and have the people skills, and we’ve yet to reach the point where people with those skills are also people who know how best to use relievers or have the guts to go against the grain when it comes to reliever usage.
ncscoots, well, the committee could be made up of actual front office personnel, and there is a rule in place that these voters can’t vote for players who spent a bulk of their career with the team that employs the member of the front office who is voting.
raleighbravefan
January 25th, 2012
4:31 pm
My father-in-law’s cousin was a participant of the Battan death march…his stories will give you chills 70 years later. Woe be upon the poor sole that pulls up in front of his house driving a Toyota, and listening to a Sony radio.
Murph
January 25th, 2012
4:32 pm
Hmmmmm… who is qualified to be on the HoF selection committee? Must be someone who has never taken a drink or done drugs, one who always tells the truth and believes in fair play, one who understands the real meaning behind the numbers and isn’t swayed by the “glory” stats….
McFann and the 4 year old will be in charge of all future Hall selections.
Shaun
January 25th, 2012
4:35 pm
raleighbravefan, I’m guessing Perry was viewed a lot like Sutton and Niekro. He didn’t have a flashy career and all that many big-time seasons. He had a few big seasons but his value was largely about longevity. I don’t think the voters kept him out because they were applying the character and integrity clause. I think they kept him out because he didn’t have overwhelming statistics in the categories they valued.
ncscoots
January 25th, 2012
4:36 pm
well, the committee could be made up of actual front office personnel,
Ah. So, Steve Phillips could have voted, when he was a GM?
there is a rule in place that these voters can’t vote for players who spent a bulk of their career with the team that employs the member of the front office who is voting.
That would be a foolish rule. If the idea is to judge all players fairly and in the context of performance, the last guy you want to exclude is the guy who has seen him play the most. Wouoldn’t these members of your committee have the stones to vote fairly, regardless of affiliation? If not, what good are they? Leave it to the BBWAA.