Braves avoid arbitration with the “O” in bullpen trio

O'Flaherty led the majors with a 0.98 ERA, the first pitcher in history with a sub-1.00 ERA in 70 or more relief appearances.

O'Flaherty led the majors with a 0.98 ERA, the first pitcher in history with a sub-1.00 ERA in 70 or more relief appearances.

He led major league relievers with an 0.98 ERA, yet drew only the third-most notoriety in a Braves bullpen that was represented by Craig Kimbrel and Jonny Venters on the National League All-Star team.

Eric O’Flaherty wasn’t an All-Star, but the veteran lefty was arguably the team’s most consistent reliever from start to finish, and Monday the O in “O’Ventbrel” got paid.

O’Flaherty and the Braves agreed to terms on a one-year, $2.49 million contract, a 178-percent raise for the Washington state native who was eligible for arbitration for the second time.

He closed the season with 20 consecutive scoreless appearances and became the first reliever in major league history to post a sub-1.00 ERA in 70 or more appearances. O’Flaherty had 78 appearances, tied for fifth-most in the majors.

He signed three days after left fielder Martin Prado agreed to a one-year, $4.75 million deal with the Braves, leaving the team with two remaining unsigned arbitration-eligible players — pitcher Jair Jurrjens and center fielder Michael Bourn.

Jurrjens and Bourn both are clients of powerful agent Scott Boras. Any remaining arb-eligible players unsigned on Tuesday will swap salary figures with teams and arbitration hearings will be scheduled for the first two weeks of February.

Jurrjens, in his second year of arbitration, will likely get a raise to around $5 million or more after making $3.25 million in 2011, a season that began splendidly for the right-hander but was cut short (again) by a knee injury.

He went 13-6 with a 2.98 ERA in 23 starts, none after August. The Braves made Jurrjens available on the trade market this offseason, but haven’t drawn suitable offers – and probably won’t until he allays other teams’ concerns about his right knee.

Bourn, 29, in his final year of arb eligibility before free agency, could possibly command a salary of $7 million after making $4.4 million with Houston and Atlanta in 2011. He hit .294 with a .349 on-base percentage and majors-leading 61 stolen bases, and can become a free agent after the 2011 season.

If arb-eligible players and teams don’t come to terms before swapping salary figures Tuesday, the sides can continue to negotiate right up until a scheduled hearing next month. Both sides generally try to settle a midpoint between swapped figures to avoid a potentially acrimonious arbitration hearing.

However, Boras has taken plenty of clients to arbitration hearings over the years.

If a case goes to hearing, an arbitration panel chooses either the salary request by the player or the salary offered by the team – but nothing between those two amounts.

The Braves have gone to arbitration hearings with players 24 times since the current system began in 1974. But they’ve managed to avoid hearings for several years, with Jeff Francoeur in 2009 the closest they’ve come recently.

Francoeur was just hours from getting on a plane to fly to Phoenix for his hearing during spring training in February ’09 when he agreed just before midnight on a one-year, $3.375 million contract. When the sides swapped salary-arbitration figures, he had asked for $3.95 million and the team offered $2.8 million.

Bourn, who has a Gold Glove and three consecutive NL stolen-base titles, could command up to $7 million in arbitration. He and Jair Jurrjens are the Braves' only unsigned arb-eligibles entering Tuesday, and both are clients of Scott Boras.

Bourn, who has a Gold Glove and three consecutive NL stolen-base titles, could command up to $7 million in arbitration. He and Jair Jurrjens are the Braves' only unsigned arb-eligibles entering Tuesday, and both are clients of Scott Boras.

♣ More on “O”: Other than the storm headed his way that’s expected to drop another foot of snow on Seattle, things were going well Monday night for O’Flaherty, who for the first time has moved into the seven-digit salary club.

O’Flaherty made $895,000 in 2011 and led big-league relievers in ERA while working in 78 games, one fewer than Kimbrel and seven behind major-league appearance leader Venters.

O’Flaherty had a 0.75 ERA in 38 road appearances, and a 0.70 ERA in 56 night games (1.61 in 22 day games).

In 49 appearances after June 6, he posted a miniscule 0.58 ERA and 41 strikeouts with 13 walks in 46-1/3 innings, and the Braves went 35-14 in those games.

One of the few Braves not to struggle down the stretch, O’Flaherty worked 19-2/3 scoreless innings in 20 appearances after Aug. 15, with one walk and 16 strikeouts.

He was a model of consistency, despite a couple of midseason episodes of back stiffness. (Considering how Venters and Kimbrel seemed to tire in September from the season-long heavy workload, perhaps the stiff back that forced O’Flaherty to be shelved for a few days a couple of times wasn’t a bad thing….)

O’Flaherty had two full months with no earned runs allowed – July (14 appearances, 12 innings) and September (14 appearances, 14 innings). Three other months, he allowed two earned runs or fewer in 12 or more appearances.

Opponents hit .221 with a .283 on-base percentage against him, and O’Flaherty limited lefties to a .195 average (17-for-87) with only four extra-base hits, two walks, 25 strikeouts and a .237 OBP and .513 OPS.

With runners in scoring position, hitters were 12-for-66 (.182) with a .212 slugging percentage. With bases loaded, O’Flaherty held folks hitless (0-for-8) with no walks, five strikeouts and one RBI.

In two-strike counts, he had a .175 opponents’ average (25-for-143) with five walks and 67 strikeouts.

By the way, Phillies hitters were 5-for-29 (.172) against O’Flaherty in 2011 with one double, one walk and 10 strikeouts. For their careers, Philly stars Ryan Howard, Jimmy Rollins and Shane Victorino are a combined 4-for-33 against the lefty, with one RBI, two walks and seven strikeouts.

♣ And something on “Z”: For those who missed it in the comments section after Carlos Zambrano was dumped – er, traded to Florida from the Chicago Cubs recently, here’s a stat to consider: He is 2-5 with a 6.08 ERA in 13 starts vs. Braves, his worst record and ERA against any team he’s faced more than once.

The Braves could have several more chances to face Carlos Zambrano, who was recently traded to the Miami Marlins.

The Braves could have several more chances to face Carlos Zambrano, who was recently traded to the Miami Marlins.

“Big Z” is 0-5 in his past 11 starts against the Braves including 0-3 with a 13.89 ERA in three starts over the past three seasons.

Brian McCann is 9-for-14 with a homer and five RBI against him, while Chipper Jones is 9-for-27 with two homers, six RBIs, four walks and one strikeout.

Chipper the last batter Zambrano faced before his famous meltdown last summer. He twice threw at Chipper (and missed) to earn an ejection in a game that completely spiraled on the Cubs and Zambrano. Then he glared and smiled at Chipper, fans and assorted others as he walked off the field, stopping before going to the clubhouse, where he cleared out his locker, told some people he was retiring, and left.

Could be interesting if he faces the Braves 3-5 times this coming season.

♣Leftover Murph notes, quotes, anecdotes: Only three players eligible for the Hall of Fame have won multiple MVPs and not been enshrined at Cooperstown: Roger Maris, Dale Murphy and Juan Gonzalez.

Juan is no longer eligible for the writers’ ballot, having gone two-and-gonzo after receiving just 23 Hall of Fame votes (4 percent of ballots cast) this year in his second year up for vote. He fell short of the 5 percent required to remain on the ballot. (75 percent is required for election.)

Just two years and Juan Gone is. Gone, that is. His link to steroids and and mention in the Mitchell Report disqualify him in the eyes of the vast majority of BBWAA voters — and likely in the view of Veterans Committee members, most of whom have stronger feelings about “steroid cheats” than do most writers.

The next multi-MVP player who’ll be eligible and put the steroid-suspicion voting mess to an exponentially more severe and controversial test is Barry Lamar Bonds, who’ll debut on the Hall of Fame ballot next winter, with his seven MVP awards, 762 homers, 2,558 walks, 415 steals, .444 OBP and 1.051 OPS. Oh, and eight Gold Gloves.

What on earth is going to happen when the votes are counted?

Is anyone really confident enough to set an over-under on the percentage of votes that the BALCO poster boy of swollen head sizes and cartoonishly superior stats – 73 homers at age 36? .609 OBP and 1.422 OPS at AGE 39?! – will receive from BBWAA voters, many of whom believe, like me, that Bonds was a Hall of Famer even before he, uh, beefed up and started his pursuit of the real home run king, Hank Aaron? Other writers say they’ll never vote for him or anyone else they believe did steroids. Still others say they’ve either decided or are leaning toward deciding to throw their hands in the air and vote like they just don’t care – about ‘roid suspicions, that is. (Let’s hope that voting bloc remains a minority.)

We’ll have plenty of time to debate here and elsewhere about Bonds and other suspected steroid users as some of the best players in generations hit the Hall of Fame ballot, including Roger Clemens. But to give you some idea of the quandary that many voters feel like they’re in, I’m going to share a few more quotes from writers I talked to a couple of weeks ago when I did a Hall of Fame preview story.

I asked a few guys about Buster Olney’s theory that some worthy Hall candidates including former Braves ace John Smoltz, who’s eligible three years from now, might have to wait a year or a few years to get enough votes because of all the votes that could be siphoned by steroid-era players who’ll get more than enough support to remain on the ballot but not enough votes to get in for a long time, if ever.

Voting writers have a 10-player limit on their ballots each year, and Buster thinks that a lot of votes are going to go year after year to players stalled by steroid suspicions.

Jerry Crasnick of ESPN.com had this to say when I asked him about that situation:

Some think Smoltz might have to wait a few years to get in the Hall of Fame, while Maddux (middle) and Glavine (right) are 300-game winners and first-ballot locks.

Some think Smoltz might have to wait a few years to get in the Hall of Fame, while Maddux (middle) and Glavine (right) are 300-game winners and first-ballot locks.

“I’ve heard more writers than ever talk about the 10-player limit being a problem, and there’s some validity to that observation. I don’t expect Bonds, Clemens, Sheffield, Sosa and the other ‘steroid guys’ to make the Hall for a while — if ever. But based on the vote totals for McGwire and Palmeiro, they’re likely to clutter up the ballot for years while attracting anywhere from 10 to 40-50 percent of the vote.

“That said, Jack Morris, Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly will be dropping off the ballot soon, so that will create some room,” Crasnick said. “And I’m not sure how adversely a crowded ballot will affect Smoltz. It could have just as big an impact on guys like Larry Walker or Fred McGriff, whose support is pretty marginal. Voters might ultimately find themselves having to choose between Smoltz and Curt Schilling or Walker and the Crime Dog.

“I think guys like Smoltz and Schilling (and Mike Mussina, for that matter) might have to wait a couple of years to build the requisite support, anyway. The 10-player limit could hurt Smoltz at the outset, but I think he has a pretty good shot to make it. He just might have to wait a little longer than Maddux and Glavine.”

Braves icons Greg Maddux and Tom Glavine, each with 300-plus wins, are considered locks for first-ballot election two years from now.”

Chicago Tribune writer Phil Rogers also opined on the 10-player limit and how Smoltz and others could be penalized by suspected steroid users who linger on the ballot for years.

“There’s no question that it’s going to be a long ballot in future seasons, with a lot of otherwise strong candidates hanging around because of their ties to PEDs, but I would hope that wouldn’t affect others, including Smoltz,” Rogers said. “If a guy’s worthy, I vote for him. And if some voters do find they have more than 10 guys they want to vote for — because of the PED guys — then I’d hope they would give the benefit of the doubt to a fresh candidate not caught in the gridlock.”

Rogers added, “What I’d like to see is the Hall’s board of directors provide BBWAA voters with some guidelines on how they want to see this handled. I think the current system guarantees that dubious guys will not get in because of the voting instructions that raise the question of integrity.

Since Gonzalez is out because of the steroid cloud over his head, and Maris was dropped from the ballot after getting a personal-best 43.1 percent of the vote in 1988 in his 15th and final year of eligibility on the writers’ ballot, the only multi-MVP player currently eligible to be voted in by the BBWAA is Murphy.

He’s only got one more year on the ballot after getting just 14.5 percent of the votes this year in his 14th time put to a vote. Murphy’s best vote total was 23.2 percent back in 2000, his second year on the ballot.

Maris got a lot more HOF votes than Murphy despite having a far less impressive overall body of work. Of course, one of Maris' three 30-homer seasons was a momentous 61-HR record job.

Maris got a lot more HOF votes than Murphy despite having a far less impressive overall body of work. Of course, one of Maris' three 30-homer seasons was a momentous 61-HR record job.

Maris, who hit .260 with a .345 OBP and .822 OPS, and had 275 homers and 850 RBIs, exceeded 40 percent in each his last three years on the ballot. Murphy, who hit .265 with a .346 OBP and .815 OPS, had 398 homers and 1,266 RBIs, has been below 15 percent for the past 11 years.

Murphy was a seven-time All-Star who won five Gold Gloves and had six 30-homer seasons. Maris was a four-time All-Star with one Gold Glove and three 30-homer seasons. Of course he played for the Yankees, and one of those 30-plus home run seasons was his record-smashing 61-homer run for the ages in 1961.

“Guys like Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly are perfect candidates for the Veterans Committee,” Rogers said. “Alan Trammell too. Personally, I haven’t voted for Murphy but I’ve always had a little nagging feeling that I should. There’s no question that career numbers are the biggest — easiest — benchmark and there are times you lean on them.

“I wonder how Murphy’s case would look if he had played for the Braves a decade later than he did.”

♣ Let’s close with a great tune by one of Dale Murphy’s favorite bands, Wilco. You can hear (and see) a live version of it by clicking here.

15511_wilco2

“MISUNDERSTOOD” by Wilco (J. Tweedy)

When you’re back in your old neighborhood
The cigarettes taste so good
But you’re so misunderstood
You’re so misunderstood

There’s something there that you can’t find
You look honest when you’re telling a lie
You hurt her but you don’t know why
You love her but you don’t know why

Short on long term goals
There’s a party there that we ought to go to
If you still love rock and roll
You still love rock and roll?

It’s only a quarter to three
Reflecting off of your CD
You’re looking at a picture of me
You’re staring at a picture of me

Take the guitar player for a ride
‘Cause he ain’t never been satisfied
He thinks he owes some kind of debt
It’ll be years before he gets over it

There’s a fortune inside your head
When all you touch turns to lead
You think you might just crawl back in bed
With the fortune inside your head

I know you’re just a mama’s boy
You’re positively unemployed
So misunderstood
So misunderstood

I know you’ve got a god-shaped hole
You’re bleeding out your heart full of soul
You’re so misunderstood
You’re so misunderstood
You’re so misunderstood
You’re so misunderstood

I’d like to thank you all for nothing
I’d like to thank you all for nothing at all
I’d like to thank you all for nothing
Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing at all
Nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing at all

by David O’Brien, Braves/MIB blog

3,784 comments Add your comment

Jeff R

January 17th, 2012
6:14 am

Did I actually make it on first?

Derek

January 17th, 2012
6:18 am

Braves fear Big Z? We sent him into retirement 1 time…we’ll do it again. Maybe we can make him spontaneously combust in the clubhouse.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
6:21 am

VJ, new tv show called SMASH on NBC about the making of a Broadway musical

chipl1960

January 17th, 2012
6:27 am

damn. almost. Oh well. Thanks DOB. Listening to MLB on XM last night on drive home and Cliff Floyd had many interesting things to say about our Braves. In summary, he said if players rebound to norms and there are no health issues Braves will be right there. Chipper, JJ, Hanson are key he said. All the hand-wringing this off season and references to “the collapse” will fade away soon enough if we play to the norms expected. No need to panic in the ATL.

MikeY

January 17th, 2012
7:04 am

I think it is Big Z that has to fear the Braves. Zambrano still has to hit, you know. I hope he has a batting helmet that provides superb protection for that magnificent brain of his.

I still remember Chipper’s comment on the post-game show after the Zambrano meltdown, when asked if the Braves would retaliate: “I think we’ll just let dead dogs lie.”

I thought that was a classic.

ChopAttack

January 17th, 2012
7:05 am

No more O’Ventbrel… the nickname is the Untouchables.

Chopdawg

January 17th, 2012
7:06 am

Tell O’Flaherty to send some of that snow down here! I need another day off.

Russell Bell

January 17th, 2012
7:17 am

Boras playing hard ball with JJ and Bourne’s contracts… not surprised. He’s had a fairly poor offseason, client-wise (at least, to this point). Someone has to pay up for his boys – be it on the open market or in arbitration.

MWC

January 17th, 2012
7:19 am

thanks for the new info Dave…

Jeff R

January 17th, 2012
7:28 am

O’Flaherty deserves the dough. No question.

GOP Cannon

January 17th, 2012
7:41 am

So the Braves have still done nothing?

bulldogbubba

January 17th, 2012
8:02 am

Quit goofing.Sign them and lets play ball.Have they started working out at Turner Field yet?

MikeY

January 17th, 2012
8:02 am

GOP Cannon, basically, you are right. We’ve dumped Lowe, McLouth, Kawakami, Linebrink, A Gonzalez, and Sherrill. Re-signed Jack Wilson. And we have Bourn and Diaz for the whole year. Not what I would call earth-shaking moves.

From my view, we have 14 pitchers that belong on SOMEONE’s major-league roster at the start of 2012: Hudson, Hanson, JJ, Beachy, Minor, Medlin, Teheran, Vizcaino, Delgado, Kimbrell, Venters, O’Flaherty, Varvaro, and Martinez. And Fish that we took in the Rule 5 draft, that we have to give back if he is not on our 25-man roster. Sure seems like we should trade one of these guys (JJ, once he proves himself healthy) for a good bat.

Until then the Braves seem content (or financially constrained) to live with their 8 position player starters w/ backups of Ross, Diaz, Jack Wilson, and Hinske. It sure seems to me that we looked awfully bad against good left-handed pitching last year. Looked at the team stats for 2011, and vs LHP we were DEAD LAST in the majors, hitting .228. Ouch. We really need another option in right field to let Heyward sit vs. tough lefties. One option might be Jonny Gomes, he has a.281/.375/.501 career batting line against southpaws, and might come cheap. He does suck vs. RH pitching.

So, we seem to have a weath of pitching and a few holes in our batting order. Looks like we will see a lot more close games, extra inning games, and overuse of our bullpen aces. Medlin could be a big help there.

Rufus

January 17th, 2012
8:09 am

How is it that these writers can justify voting for roided-up cheaters like McGuire, Sosa, etc. and not vote for the poster-boy achievements of Murphy? My goodness, he was the Braves during the time he played, was incredibly successful, and did it without cheating. What else is required to make the Hall?

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
8:11 am

Oh, Gawd, They are Playing “Piano Man” by Billy Joel on 97.1 The River, Bleh!

That song is Gawd-Awful….

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
8:13 am

Rufus

“How is it that these writers can justify voting for roided-up cheaters like McGuire, Sosa, etc. and not vote for the poster-boy achievements of Murphy? My goodness, he was the Braves during the time he played, was incredibly successful, and did it without cheating. What else is required to make the Hall?”

Co-Sign! I watched 1993 Video last night of Fred McGriff and Man was He Bad from 1993-94!

He will hold the Record for number of Stadiums/Parks that he has hit a homer in and that will never be Broken

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
8:14 am

How that 1993 Team Got upset when Gant McGriff and Justice all combined for over 100 homers, absolutely befuddles me!

Ty Cobb

January 17th, 2012
8:16 am

Baseball is so beyond repairable..the HOF is a joke. Murph didn’t cheat and that should be an honor itself these days.

Patio Daddio

January 17th, 2012
8:25 am

Fish was taken in the rule 5 draft and because this was the second time he was taken he can become a free agent if he does not make the Braves roster

74bravesjersey

January 17th, 2012
8:39 am

Cool! When they have medlen going,another middle reliever ace/starter they could call the big four Meds O’Ventbrel or if needed for the xtra inn.’s, O’ventbrelmeds,funny Har,Har. But seriously, if his stuff moves as good as it did when he came back they should seriously consider him starting if it’s consistent enough for 5-6 innings.

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
8:43 am

The Braves may well be a playoff contender this year but they have too many issues right now for me to project them into the playoffs. Frankly, without being homeristic, they sit at best 3rd in the division behind the Marlins and Phils. Probably on par with the Nats.

It is somewhat of a mystery that we have gone weaker at SS and given an aging Chipper weaker at 3rd. I might like our infield in June. I don’t like it now save for Freeman. So forget about the outfield bat acquisition we need. Here are more pressing needs:
Major turnaround for Heyward (a must)
Return to .300 hitter in Prado
Have Uggla actually start playing prior to the all-star break
Super-frosh year from Pastornicky (a must)
A consistent McCann offensively
Hudson, Hanson, Beachy must stay healthy and be the anchors (a must)
Freeman avoids a soph slump

These are all big issues and trading for a bat won’t alleviate them. The NL East is a beast. The Braves are right there in the conversation but their problems won’t be solved until the season begins and players produce as hoped. For certain the Braves aren’t buying their way to the top which is fine by me. We have good young players and vets. A good mix. Time for the young guys to step in and make an impact like Posey did for San Fran and the vets to have bounce back years. If not they will finish 3rd in the division and we will have these same conversations again next year about this time.

bravesfansince1982

January 17th, 2012
8:50 am

That’s gonna stink for Smoltz if he has to wait because undeserving cheaters are taking his votes. Of course, not sure why he waited as long as he did to retire. He should be going in the same time as Maddux and Glavine.

Speaking of Smoltz, any talk of when his number will be retired at Turner? I went to both Maddux’s and Glavine’s ceremonies and need to make it 3 for 3 and see my favorite Brave honored at the Ted.

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
8:58 am

Personally I could care less about when Smoltz gets in the HOF. Makes no difference. He is not a 1st ballot guy. Maddox and Glavine are and will be. Smoltz will get there in a few years. Still hard to believe Maris isn’t in. And to think everyone is clamoring for Murphy to get in. Really? Really? That is a hard sell.

bravesfansince1982

January 17th, 2012
9:00 am

Dadgum, health is certainly the biggest key for the Braves. I truly believe that if Prado, Heyward and Chipper are all healthy, then the offense will be fine. Pastornicky needs to play solid defense, but if he’s batting 8th, he doesn’t need to hit .290-.300 to be a solid contributor.

The real key, however, will be the health and effectiveness of the rotation. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, the Braves starters have to learn to manage their pitch counts and take some innings away from the bullpen.

MikeY

January 17th, 2012
9:08 am

I still think we need another platoon RH bat for the outfield. Our hitting is too left-handed, and we get killed by LH pitching.

But I agree that the turn-arounds and good years from the existing position players are a must if we are to contend.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
9:08 am

the Braves starters have to learn to manage their pitch counts and take some innings away from the bullpe

It won’t matter how they manage pitch counts, if they have to be lifted for a pinch hitter in the 6th or 7th. The offense needs to take innings away from the back of the bullpen, before the starters’ IP means anything.

Heisenberg

January 17th, 2012
9:10 am

It says up ther Bourn is a free agent after 2011 season. Believe that should be 2012,

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
9:12 am

Braves fan….I said it all year last year too. I opined that we were not getting deep enough into games with our starters. Be it pitch counts or Fredi just yanking them too early. Stats revealed we were near the bottom of the NL in innings pitched by starters which probably explains in part why our bullpen blew a tire. With Medlen now back as our middle relief / emergency starter we might actually be able to effectively get a starter through 6 and pull him or whatever inning. Gonna be nice to have Medlen and OFlaherty anchoring the middle setting up the two-headed monster.

bravesfansince1982

January 17th, 2012
9:13 am

“It won’t matter how they manage pitch counts, if they have to be lifted for a pinch hitter in the 6th or 7th.”

I would love it for the Braves starters to make it to the 6th or 7th. The problem is that more times than not in 2011, they had 100 pitches by the fifth inning and then, Fredi had to start burning arms.

If they get the game into the later innings, then Fredi can split the load more evenly and not burn every pitcher every other night.

reason

January 17th, 2012
9:14 am

Where is the best site I can go to study Sabermatics and it’s formulas???

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
9:14 am

Scoots…..yep. Just score 4 or more.

Rock on……The Rule of 64.

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
9:16 am

Formulas? I prefer the eye test method.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
9:18 am

But I agree that the turn-arounds and good years from the existing position players are a must if we are to contend.

It’s much easier to believe that players who had bad years will return to being the player they were before that year, than it is to believe that players with a history of good years will have a bad year. Yet, at least half the offense had down years all at the same time, the odds against which are extremely high.So, why is it seemingly so hard for some here to believe that the same players will return to their norms, which is an exceedingly more likely possibility than last year’s fiasco?

Nope

January 17th, 2012
9:18 am

Sorry, DOB, but O’Ventebrel is the stupidest name I’ve ever heard. It’s never worked or been clever and you continue to go with it. Sad.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
9:20 am

Good for Eric O’Flaherty, he’s deserving of the raise given via the contract.

But interesting stuff concerning the impending Hall of Fame voting. I guess most fans never would have thought about the PED’s era having such as impact on potential candidates, especially guys like John Smoltz who deserve to be enshrined.

Mako

January 17th, 2012
9:20 am

Good news on the bullpen, but it’s not going to matter 1 bit if the lineup is as awful as it was last season or even 2 yrs ago. Th Braves need to find some hitters and please, sit Chipper every 3rd day, heck, maybe he’ll be semi-healthy in August & September if they do. The biggest thing Birdbrain Wren and Gonzo Fredi need to do is decide what kind of offense do they want & have….either you’re a big bat team or singles running team….but you can’t halfway it,: it’s one or the other. And last but certainly not least….Gonzo Fredi has got to learn to let his starters pitch into the 7th & 8th innings as the season progresses!!!!!!!!!!!

Heisenberg

January 17th, 2012
9:21 am

I vote thumbs up for the O’Ventebrel nickname

Arkansas Transplant

January 17th, 2012
9:23 am

slow news day.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
9:23 am

Scoots, We all need to get used to not only the Braves rotation only going around 6 innings, pretty much every rotation in baseball is doing that. The days of guys going 7,8 &9 innings are more rare. The avg start is right at 6 innings. That is the value of middle relief. One of the advantages the Braves have over other teams.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
9:25 am

The problem is that more times than not in 2011, they had 100 pitches by the fifth inning and then, Fredi had to start burning arms.

In the first half, pre-injuries, Hudson, Jurrjens, and Hanson were all averaging right at 7 IP or better. The rooks, not so much. Now, if one expects inexperienced pitchers to average 7+ IP per start, I’d say that’s a little optimistic.

You plan for worst case scenarios, which is starters going short. Otherwise, why have 12-man staffs? :-) It’s not so much a matter of using the bullpen arms, as it is which arms you have to use on any given night.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
9:28 am

scoots @9:18 – There you go again with the logic, instead of alarmism. Personal foul and 15 yards for being too optimistic.

vesaversa

January 17th, 2012
9:28 am

John Smoltz, have never been accused of using Enchantments drugs .He should be a lock in the NOF too.

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
9:31 am

Smoltz is a lock for the HOF. Just gonna take a few ballots given the era.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
9:31 am

Personal foul and 15 yards for being too optimistic.

I had a vision yesterday, out of the blue. It was, that the wheel karma turns 180 for the Braves this year. All that went wrong last year, goes right this year. Bleep evens out.

Supes

January 17th, 2012
9:33 am

I’m glad that the Braves are keeping EOF and giving him that “raise”, he’s earned every bit of that money by his performance for the team, esp. when called upon against those tough left handed hitters in the NL East.

Jair…my gut feeling is that they avoid arbitration with him, he has another darn good first half in 2012 and this time, Wren capitalizes and trades him for that much needed OF help.

The Hall of Fame…I am positive Smoltz will get in, probably will take a while. It’ll be great to see Maddux and Glavine go in together, and too bad Bobby Cox gotta wait…I think with some of the “older folks”, maybe they should omit the 5 year period…what if something happens and he isn’t around to enjoy the moment? Just saying folks…cold but reality.

Bonds…he was a HOF before he decided that his EGO needed the PED’s so he can turn into a HR machine ( I guess 40HR per year WITHOUT wasn’t enough…what a jacka&&) but I hope they make his a&& wait a while before they put him in. McGuire isn’t going in ever…he was a one trick pony and that one trick was much reliant on PED’s. At least Bonds was a five tool player BEFORE the PED’s.

Tommy Dew

January 17th, 2012
9:36 am

Dave – Can you please change the abbreviation of O’Flaherty, Venters and Kimbrel to something other than O’Ventbrel? It has no ring. How about Oven-K or Simply O-V-K?

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
9:40 am

Yep, I’m feelin the Braves will bounce back and get a wild card spot. Advance and win the World Series. I also believe in ghosts, aliens, Roswell, Area 51. According to the Mayans this is the Braves last chance. Believe while you can. :)

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
9:41 am

Reality check please………………….

Our pitching alone guarantee’s that we will win more games than we lose. That said, our potentially porous infield won’t help in the defensive department. Those Marlins and Nationals are greatly improved while we are essentially the same. While the offense is an unknown simply because our new hitting coach is too. So the span from 82 wins on to 90 is going to be interesting, and wild card race is going to be much tougher.

So win, yes. Competitive, yes. Playoffs? don’t hold your breath.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
9:42 am

scoots – I agree with you 100%, by the way.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
9:42 am

Jair…my gut feeling is that they avoid arbitration with him, he has another darn good first half in 2012 and this time, Wren capitalizes and trades him for that much needed OF help.

If Wren trades a 12-3/1.87 ERA pitcher at the All-Star break, in the middle of a pennant race of an improved division, he’d either have the biggest stones in MLB or the biggest lack of brain cells.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
9:44 am

Thanks for the new blog, DOB

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
9:46 am

Believe while you can.

It’s not a matter of faith. Simply put, I’m better at evaluating the actual talent of the team and its opposition than some others here.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
9:49 am

Coach – I believe most guys will return to their norms. The rotation is better with no Lowe, and bullpen is best in MLB. If all of that holds true, we will not be “essentially the same”, but will be, in fact, improved ourselves. Add to that the distinct possibilty of at least one of JJ and Hanson being healthy, and probably more production at SS, and I’m not ready to conceed the divsion to the Phillies.

Chuck

January 17th, 2012
9:49 am

Murph played for a team that was a laughing stock, and a good bit of that was laughing at Ted breaking all the rules and trying new things (which ended up working!) The fact that his team stunk every year but one or two means that his stats were discounted as unimportant because they didn’t occur with a competitive team or a team that wasn’t in the south. Writers hated the south because it was a new market that they weren’t in. Him being such a nice guy didn’t help him either. Characters with more flair seem to do better – it is entertainment, after all, and many rank negative entertainment just as high as the positive, as is evidenced by all the reality shows. Murph is fine and deserves to be in – I just wish the voters were better.

Brave New World

January 17th, 2012
9:51 am

ChopAttack January 17th, 2012 7:05 am
No more O’Ventbrel… the nickname is the Untouchables.

ChopAttack: I second that!

Dadgum.....

January 17th, 2012
9:51 am

Scoots…..I dunno. Chipper could go down and Prado playing 3rd full time. We would have a big need for a OF bat then. That may not happen but the fact we aren’t signing JJ anyway next year we may as well jettison him while we can get something in return. Especially with our plethora of pitching talent. Nobody will be shocked if he is traded by the deadline and the better he pitches the more likely that happens.

Bob the Blogger

January 17th, 2012
9:54 am

The case that could be made for Maris going into the hall of fame is his fame. He may not have had great career numbers, but everyone knows who he is. Out of curiosity a few years ago, I asked my 85 year old aunt, who knows or cares nothing about baseball, if she knew who Rodger Maris was. She said “wasn’t he the man who broke Babe Ruth’s home run record?” People that never heard of Cal Ripkin or Barry Bonds know the name Maris. He’s part of baseball lore, and that should count for something.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
9:54 am

Dadgum – Many of us can believe, because we have good reason to do so. Others seem to be happy only if they can imagine the worst. I feel sorry for someone like that.

Mitchie-sand

January 17th, 2012
9:56 am

Slow news offseason.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
9:57 am

jeffrey d Neil Patrick Harris! The only other person to be named “Barney” in a sitcom

Oh!……I…don’t know him… :P

Arkansas Transplant

January 17th, 2012
9:57 am

Who’s going to serve as our 4th outfielder this season?

Mitchie-sand

January 17th, 2012
10:00 am

Thanks for the new blog, DOB. Interesting stuff in the HOF. I personally think Murph will get in by the veterans committee.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
10:00 am

Bob – I believe Maris should be in the HOF, even IF all he did was break the HR record. In addition, he was an excellent outfielder, who won the AL MVP twice.
Problem is, he is hated by some for breaking the Ruth record, discounted by some because it took him 162 games to do it, and not as well liked as Mickey Mantle, who was also in the race that year to break the record, much like McGuire and Sosa.

kwajbraves

January 17th, 2012
10:01 am

Smith traded to the A’s and Ludwick signed by the Reds. Maggs signing is near then I glad that we have Bourn because Matt, Hinske and Ordonez have the range of statue.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
10:02 am

Doogie to Barney…totally different characters. 2 Barneys totally different as well. Barney Fife was one of the truly great characters in the history of TV.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
10:03 am

it’s important to note that not only did the Braves have a horrible offensive season but also that batting averages across the board were at a low-point in decades last year. Chipper made several comments about the development of a certain pitch (forget which one, I’m not a pitching guy) that has become THE dominant pitch and that alone has made hitting a lot harder all of a sudden (not to mention certain artificial hitting aids are now much harder to get away with-see Braun, Ryan) so that we may not see a drastic change in hitting production and we may have to be ok with that. hopefully the new coaches will help out with a better in-game strategy (clearly one of Fredi G’s biggest weaknesses) so that we can capitalize more on the opportunites we DO get, so that the offense won’t be quite so anemic. We could still make good use of a big bat in LF, just sayin’. Trade a pitching prospect or two and help a struggling lineup Mr. Wren, standing pat is probably going to be a mistake given that giving up somebody who you may not have room for on the roster any time soon can’t hurt you as much as you obviously think it could…

DAP

January 17th, 2012
10:03 am

Dadgum…Frankly, without being homeristic, they sit at best 3rd in the division behind the Marlins and Phils. Probably on par with the Nats.

oh please, gimme a break. marlins are still 4th best in this division, man. if anyone challenges the braves for 2nd, its the nats.

Still hard to believe Maris isn’t in. And to think everyone is clamoring for Murphy to get in. Really? Really? That is a hard sell.

maris should be in but murphy shouldnt? geez, try and figure that one out….

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
10:04 am

raleighbravefan Barney Fife was one of the truly great characters in the history of TV.

He was. Him and the Mertzes—never be anymore like them…

bravesfansince1982

January 17th, 2012
10:04 am

I know everyone on here would love to have a murderer’d row offense and that the sting of last September is clouding a lot of people’s vision for 2012, but this offense has a lot of potential.

Bourn has the potential to hit .300 and steal 50 bases at the top of the order
Prado has the potential to hit .300 and be a doubles machine as well as a great situational hitter behind Bourn
Chipper, a future HOFer, has the potential to duplicate the numbers he put up late last year
Uggla has 30 HR, 100 RBI potential
McCann has 25 HR, 90 RBI potential
Freeman has the potential to duplicate if not improve on last year’s rookie season
Heyward has the potential to hit 20-25 HR, and drive in 70-80 runs

the only one who we have no clue about is Pastornicky, but as long as he plays good D and hits enough in the 8th spot, he should be fine

There are no guarantees in sports, but to think that this group cannot score enough to compliament a darn good pitching staff is pointless and ridiculous

Maybe I’m too optimistic, but I think this team is going to quiet a lot of critics when it comes to their offensive production in 2012

You dance with the one who brung ya, and while our partner may not be Cinderella, she certainly is not one of the ugly stepsisters

Mitchie-sand

January 17th, 2012
10:04 am

I can’t stand sit-coms these days. It’s the fake laugh track they use. I can’t stand hearing laughter at every single half assed joke that is muttered. If a joke if funny, I will laugh. Certainly not because I hear laughter. Incredibly annoying. More reason why Modern Family is so great. It’s hilarious and It doesn’t need fake laughter to make it SEEM funny.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
10:06 am

mako either you’re a big bat team or singles running team….but you can’t halfway it,: it’s one or the other.

you dont like a balanced offense?

i think the braves right now have a pretty good mix of offensive talent. speed guys like bourn and pasornicky, contact guys like like prado and chipper, power guys like uggla, freeman, mccann, and one guy who might be all of that, in heyward. im hoping for an MVP award this year for him.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
10:08 am

we may as well jettison [Jurrjens] while we can get something in return.

Short-sighted. Unless the “something” is a lot more than has obviously been offered for him, and that becomes more unlikely as the amount of club-control dwindles.

I’m not against trading pitching, if there’s a real need at the ML level. But, in the scenarios bruited about here, only a contender would want a pitcher such as Jurrjens at the deadline, and what contender is going to give up a significant major league piece for him? None.

On the other hand, keeping a performing Jurrjens for the entire year is more likely to advance the team’s efforts than adding another young pitcher to the rotation for the second half.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
10:13 am

bravesfansince80s Chipper made several comments about the development of a certain pitch (forget which one, I’m not a pitching guy)

the cutter. bane of chipper’s existence.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
10:13 am

One other thing that will happen between now and spring training. Wren will sign another veteran outfielder to back up Bourn in CF. No way will Constanza make the 25 man roster. Dude was exposed as the quad A player he is. Jose hit .375 in his first 21 games then proceeded to get roasted while hitting .164 down the stretch.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
10:15 am

Future Shock
Cincinnati Reds Top 11 Prospects
by Kevin Goldstein

Five-Star Prospects
1. Billy Hamilton, SS
2. Devin Mesoraco, C
Three-Star Prospects
3. Zack Cozart, SS
4. Robert Stephenson, RHP
5. Daniel Corcino, RHP
6. J.C. Sulbaran, RHP
7. Didi Gregorius, SS
8. Todd Frazier, UT
9. Neftali Soto, 1B
10. Henry Rodriguez, 2B
Two-Star Prospects
11. Yorman Rodriguez, OF

Really wish Robert Stephenson fell to us at #28 last year. Here’s Goldstein’s profile on him:


Year in Review: Among the best high school pitchers in the draft, signability dropped him towards the end of the first round, where he signed for a $2 million bonus.
The Good: Stephenson has what scouts look for in a future starting pitcher. He makes his velocity look easy with simple mechanics and clean arm action, which allows him to not only throw his fastball at 92-96 mph but to throw it with the command and control rarely seen in teenagers. He’ll flash a plus curveball and earns high marks for his makeup.
The Bad: Like many young pitchers, Stephenson can be too dependent on his fastball. He can be guilty of over-relying on his fastball and over-throwing his curveball, forcing it to flatten out. His changeup is very much a work in progress. More than anything, he just needs innings and repetition.
Ephemera: While none of the eight players drafted out of Alhambra High School have reached the big leagues, the school does have a Hall of Fame alum from before the draft era in outfielder Ralph Kiner.
Perfect World Projection: Star-level starting pitcher, but he’s far from it.
Fantasy Impact: For now, he’s a risky pick, but a good player to store away in deep leagues.
Path to the Big Leagues: Stephenson will likely make his pro debut at Low-A Dayton in 2012.
ETA: 2015

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
10:16 am

Maybe I’m too optimistic, but I think this team is going to quiet a lot of critics when it comes to their offensive production in 2012

Last year, there were many who thought the team could be one of the top three offenses in the league, and that was with Freeman as a rookie, without Bourn, and with Alex Gonzalez. This year, pretty much the same core of offensive players, except with Bourn and without Gonzalez (The Rev is bound to be a better offensive player, unless he’s a total bust, in which case, he won’t be playing in the first place).

Unless you consider last year as more indicative of players’ offensive potential than the rest of their careers, then it’s reasonable to assume that the team is much more likely to be a juggernaut than a dinghy.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
10:16 am

Mitchie-Sand

And a lot of times, the jokes are too forced—they go out of their way to build up to a “funny” line so it makes no sense and isn’t natural…course, I don’t watch any shows that were invented in the last 14 years or so, so I really can’t say a whole lot… :P

Old shows are the best.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:16 am

BravesFanSince80’s

“it’s important to note that not only did the Braves have a horrible offensive season but also that batting averages across the board were at a low-point in decades last year. Chipper made several comments about the development of a certain pitch (forget which one, I’m not a pitching guy) that has become THE dominant pitch and that alone has made hitting a lot harder all of a sudden”

I’m guessing its the advent of the cutter and a lot of it has to do with Players not taking HGH/Roids to help recover from the daily Grind

Baseball is losing more and more of popularity to the NFL each pasing year as offense keeps declining….

Yawn

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:17 am

Coach (2012 Fredi’s beisbol fandango)

One other thing that will happen between now and spring training. Wren will sign another veteran outfielder to back up Bourn in CF”

Are you willing to Take that to the Bank…?

Bring Back Loaf or Sign Ibanez to a Cheap deal….

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
10:18 am

I’m not against trading pitching, if there’s a real need at the ML level. But, in the scenarios bruited about here, only a contender would want a pitcher such as Jurrjens at the deadline, and what contender is going to give up a significant major league piece for him? None.

Exactly. I don’t really think they’d be willing to give up significant minor league pieces for him. And, what is the benefit of trading him mid-season for prospects?

Couch Tater

January 17th, 2012
10:18 am

I can’t stand sit-coms these days. It’s the fake laugh track they use.

HAHAHAHA. Yep, and loud.

ChopAttack

January 17th, 2012
10:22 am

The Untouchable is easier to remember, spell, and also includes the other arms (like Medlen). The O’howeveritsspelled is lame.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
10:22 am

I can’t stand sit-coms these days. It’s the fake laugh track they use. I can’t stand hearing laughter at every single half assed joke that is muttered. If a joke if funny, I will laugh. Certainly not because I hear laughter. Incredibly annoying. More reason why Modern Family is so great. It’s hilarious and It doesn’t need fake laughter to make it SEEM funny. — Mitchie-sand

Agree entirely — on laugh tracks (awful) and Modern Family (great).

Murph

January 17th, 2012
10:22 am

No way will Constanza make the 25 man roster. Dude was exposed as the quad A player he is. Jose hit .375 in his first 21 games then proceeded to get roasted while hitting .164 down the stretch.

To be fair, Constanza hit .324/.361/.412/.773 as a starter from July 29th to September 6th including 10 multihit games and 7 SB. It wasn’t until he got put into a PH role that he really struggled, going hitless in his last 10 games.

I don’t really want Constanza on the roster either, especially given the fact that his primary role would be as a PH/late inning fill in.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
10:23 am

tomahawkin Baseball is losing more and more of popularity to the NFL each pasing year

you sure about that? i think baseball has been growing.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
10:23 am

Some of the old shows use fake laughter, but sometimes it’s not even noticeable…And I like listening to the audience in the live shows ’cause sometimes they have hilarious reactions… :P

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
10:25 am

Sorry, DOB, but O’Ventebrel is the stupidest name I’ve ever heard. It’s never worked or been clever and you continue to go with it. SadNope

That’s because you misspell it. It’s O’Ventbrel, two e’s not three. There, now isn’t that better?

Moving along….

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:25 am

ncscoots

[Maybe I’m too optimistic, but I think this team is going to quiet a lot of critics when it comes to their offensive production in 2012]

“Last year, there were many who thought the team could be one of the top three offenses in the league”

I was One of them…I was on here Feelin Good/Pretty Boy Flexing A Year ago when I thought the 2011 Squad could match up to the 2003 Squad…Boy was I wrong…

The 2011 offense was the most Inconsistant offense I have seen in my 22 years of watching the team…Parrish Should’ve been “Ol Yellered” at the trade deadline…

Largo

January 17th, 2012
10:25 am

Wren, Fredi and Chipper are “confident” Prado, JJ, Hanson, Heyward and McCann will be better than last year and are satisfied to field the same team again this year. Actually, it isn’t confidence they are feeling, it is “hope.”

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
10:25 am

Thanks for the work DOB.

Supes

January 17th, 2012
10:27 am

Why do I say Jair will be traded…it’s simple is it better to “let him walk” via FA (b/c I can’t see Jair signing here due to the Boras factor, and or the supply and depth of Braves young arms coming up the pipeline from the minor).

I believe Wren would rather TRADE Jair (yes even for stinking prospects) than let him walk after the season, feel free to disagree but Wren being an aggressive GM, will most likely explore the trade scenario.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
10:27 am

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
10:27 am

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:17 am

Coach (2012 Fredi’s beisbol fandango)

One other thing that will happen between now and spring training. Wren will sign another veteran outfielder to back up Bourn in CF”

Are you willing to Take that to the Bank…?

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>..

Absolutely YES. For certain and for more than one reason. We know the Braves tried to pry one of the Rockies CF’ers away when attempting to unload Jurrjens. Nor will Constanza hold up against big league pitching. While although unlikely, Bourn could get traded before the all-star break.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
10:27 am

receive from BBWAA voters, many of whom believe, like me, that Bonds was a Hall of Famer even before he, uh, beefed up and started his pursuit of the real home run king, Hank Aaron?

Where did I read it? It went something like this: “He dominated the front nine and then cheated in the back nine. He’s still disqualified for cheating.”

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
10:28 am

McFann – Ah yes, the Mertzes…What a incredible duo….I loved Fred Mertz…the perfect curmudgeon.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:29 am

DAP

January 17th, 2012
10:23 am
“tomahawkin—Baseball is losing more and more of popularity to the NFL each pasing year

you sure about that? i think baseball has been growing.”

Come On my man…? Compare The NFL Saints/9ers playoff Game to the Rangers/Cards World Series…That NFL Playoff Game set 23 year high record ratings and In a lot of peoples minds was Better than a lot of recent Super Bowls…When was the Last time a World Series had record high ratings…? I’m guessing 2001? When Jeter becamse Mr November

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
10:30 am

To be fair, Constanza hit .324/.361/.412/.773 as a starter from July 29th to September 6th including 10 multihit games and 7 SB

From 08/16 to 09/06, they guy appeared in 16 games and started 12 of them. He hit .205, fercrissake, with an OBP of .239. But, you’re right, he hit even worse coming off the bench.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
10:31 am

DOB – Agree completely. Modern Family is easily the best comedy on TV…the only “must see” currently amoung comedies.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
10:31 am

The NFL’s got one game per playoff round. MLB has seven after the first round.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
10:32 am

I don’t really think they’d be willing to give up significant minor league pieces for him. And, what is the benefit of trading him mid-season for prospects?

Ef, you’ve pretty much pigeonholed Jurrjens into the not-worth-it category. Even if he does well, he’s not trade-able. But honestly Ef, “what’s the benefit of trading him mid-season for prospects?” A team can never have too many polished college lefties. Suppose the draft comes and goes and all those toolsy infielders and polished lefties are missing come time for them to pick, trading Jurrjens mid-season is the best way to recoup. It’s the only way.

abby normal

January 17th, 2012
10:32 am

With regard to Barry Lamar Bonds: If he, or any of the other juicers, make the HOF, then Pete Rose should go to Cooperstown and kick the door down. The gutless Bud Selig should do the right thing and lift the ban on Rose so he can take his rightful place among the greats of the game.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:33 am

@Coach!

“Absolutely YES. For certain and for more than one reason. We know the Braves tried to pry one of the Rockies CF’ers away when attempting to unload Jurrjens. Nor will Constanza hold up against big league pitching. While although unlikely, Bourn could get traded before the all-star break.”

If we sign/trade for Any OF Between Now and April 1st…It will be a player that No One has mentioned as a possibility on here, Watch and Bank on It!

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:34 am

abby normal

With regard to Barry Lamar Bonds: If he, or any of the other juicers, make the HOF, then Pete Rose should go to Cooperstown and kick the door down. The gutless Bud Selig should do the right thing and lift the ban on Rose so he can take his rightful place among the greats of the game.”

Co-Sign

Bill

January 17th, 2012
10:35 am

Great job DOB..
Glad for Big O..he deserves every penny!
Wilco Band is good..Like Jesus etc….
Hope Bourn and JJ come around to agreed on salary…
On Constanza, while he played regular we won. When Fredi put him on bench after he hurt his ankle we went down hill..so say what u please.
On HF making them wait is BS…4 Braves need to go on in.
GO Braves but I still have my if’s.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
10:36 am

I think Constanza can end up on the 25 man. Depends on if Wren goes out and gets a real 4th outfielder. Cody Ross and J.D. Drew are still out there, although I don’t see us getting either.

Bill

January 17th, 2012
10:38 am

It don’t matter what I think but I don’t care for Ross are Drew…

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:38 am

JD Screw???

Yuck…I still can’t get over how he Disappeared in the Playoffs in 2004 and then Sold Out….

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
10:41 am

I would settle for 1.Rick Ankiel
2.Juan Pierre 3.Cory Patterson as it’s unlikely any of these guys will command more than 2 million.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
10:42 am

BravesFan

January 17th, 2012
10:42 am

I don’t really see how you can keep Bonds out of the HOF. Regardless of how much he juiced, he dominated the game like few others could dream of. Keeping him out is pretty much the same as admitting that Baseball was a complete sham for a while, and really still is. Plus it makes the HOF look silly considering the cheaters that are still in there.

Bill

January 17th, 2012
10:43 am

JD is a great person but he was motivated by money more than Baseball..but he did give alot of his money to church and etc.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
10:44 am

abby – Using steroids, and betting on baseball are totally different offenses. There is a reason that betting on baseball caries the death penalty.(and Pete knew it).

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
10:45 am

you’ve pretty much pigeonholed Jurrjens into the not-worth-it category

I want a bounty of 2 high floor, infielders who won’t be much more than utlity players and 1 back of the rotation left hander who tops out at 89, but succeeds with above average command and control. :)

I think I just defined the first three picks in our 2011 draft.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
10:47 am

Yuck…I still can’t get over how he Disappeared in the Playoffs in 2004 and then Sold Out….

Would we of made the playoffs in 2004 without him? He was amazing that year.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
10:48 am

Jaret Wright was Amazing in 2004 as well before Selling out to Whinebrenner and the Yankees

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
10:48 am

https://twitter.com/#!/jonmorosi/status/159281131781505026

Would you rather have Matt Garza, Gavin Floyd or Jair Jurrjens for the next two years? Keep in mind Jurrjens costs the least in terms of salary, while Garza costs the most. Floyd is owed 16.5 million, although the second year option for 9 million is a club option.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
10:49 am

Is shoeless Joe Jackson in Cooperstown? There’s your answer for Pete Rose. As for Bonds, yes he was an absolute slam dunk Hall of Fame ball player before he became entangled in PEDS. Which is incredibly sad because if Bonds gets in, they they all get in and we know that ain’t gonna happen.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
10:50 am

I just get tired of all the talk about how there’s not much Wren can do, we have some of the best pitching prospects in the game and some of them don’t have a place on the MLB roster and won’t any time soon even with an injury or two. Many many many teams in MLB would jump at the chance to get their hands on some of them, so I doubt if many players would be off limits as long as the offer was serious. Wren keeps saying he has more room on the payroll so the dissenters who keep saying we couldn’t swing somebody big, I don’t believe you if what Wren says is true (short of somebody paid HUGE money). DOB got onto me last night for pointing this out because I think there is reason for concern where the Marlins and Nationals are concerned. He argued that the Marlins finished 17 games back of us last year. My argument isn’t necessarily that I think either of those clubs will finish ahead of us and it may not matter whether they do or not in one particular regard. My concerns where these two teams are concerned is this: both of them have played us tough for the last few seasons, and if they’re both significantly better there is no reason to believe that trend won’t continue and given the way last year ended, the records we finished with against these two teams played a large part in our not making the playoffs. So basically what I’m saying is, why SHOULDN’T we make moves in response to two division rivals getting significatly better? Not doing so seems more an indication of building for the future rather than winning now which if so, I hate it for Chipper ’cause this coming season may well be his last…

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
10:51 am

I think I just defined the first three picks in our 2011 draft.

Bite your tongue, before you give them ideas.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
10:54 am

tomawawkin Come On my man…? Compare The NFL Saints/9ers playoff Game to the Rangers/Cards World Series…That NFL Playoff Game set 23 year high record ratings

hey my man, show that baseball is losing fans, first of all. then show me those fans are going to the NFL INSTEAD of baseball, and then i can believe this statement:

“Baseball is losing more and more of popularity to the NFL each passing year”

besides, for parity, you have too add together all the viewers for all 6 games of the world series. because, in football its just one game. baseball is more spread out.

anyways, just because football is gaining ratings, doesnt mean baseball is losing popularity.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
10:55 am

Does everybody sell out?

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
11:00 am

baseball is losing popularity and has been for years, just because revenues still look good doesn’t mean we aren’t losing fans (and athletes) to the NFL, financial numbers are more indicative of total rising costs and television deals than butts in the seats. wayyyyyy more people watch the NFL playoffs than the MLB playoffs now. the problem starts at the foundation as Selig and many others have started desperate programs to try and improve opportunities for inner-city kids to play youth baseball, way too easy to just nail up a basketball hoop than to drive somewhere out of the city to take your kids to little league…

Feeanch

January 17th, 2012
11:06 am

Totally in agreement with Bravesfansince1982. Call me a homer. I predict JJ starts well, gets shipped before trade deadline, and we get a corner or CF prospect and good RH bat. A healthy Prado batting behind Bourn is money. Let’s not forget BMac’s summer swoon. He’ll be back. I think we will have much better plate discipline and return to 2010 form. Prediction: 95 Wins. Wild card.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
11:07 am

I want a bounty of 2 high floor, infielders who won’t be much more than utlity players and 1 back of the rotation left hander who tops out at 89, but succeeds with above average command and control.

Ha! If only we could be so lucky.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
11:11 am

I think if baseball was single-elimination, ratings would be a lot higher

Lollygagger

January 17th, 2012
11:14 am

I co-sign DAP’s 10:54 post. I think people are getting confused… baseball is not losing popularity. NFL just continues to grow in popularity, therefore widening the gap over MLB and therefore again making it appear that MLB has lost ratings/attendance/popularity. But I do agree that baseball is not gaining popularity with young people, which could be a problem long-term. Money and revenue, however, have never been higher for MLB from everything Selig says (whatever that’s worth.) So again, yes baseball is losing the popularity contest. But it’s a business…and business is good. Real good. It’s like a girl not winning the homecoming queen crown, but then landing a job with Fortune 500 company the next day. She’ll be fine. And so will baseball. ;)

J

January 17th, 2012
11:15 am

Murphy was the best player at his position for a decade. There was no better center fielder in the 80’s than Murph. He aslo won two MVP awards on a team that finished last in his divison. That’s pretty hard to do. It is a shame that Murhpy who was PED free has not been enshrined in the hall. I hope the veterans commitee will vote him in. This should be a no brainer best player at your positon for a decade should equal HOF. His numbers late in his carrer with the Phillies should not hurt his chances but unfortunalty I think this is what is holding back. If you voted based on Charated he would be a fist ballot lock. Murphy for President! and he should be a canidate to replace Fredi when the time comes or Bud Selig when he steps down.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
11:17 am

bravesfansince80s financial numbers are more indicative of total rising costs and television deals than butts in the seats.

attendance is up compared to 10 years ago, and big money tv deals only gets signed if they like the ratings (aka people are watching).

http://www.ballparksofbaseball.com/2000-10attendance.htm

do you guys have any facts to back up your assertions? i mean, maybe you are right, but id like to see some links or something.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
11:17 am

DOB got onto me last night for pointing this out because I think there is reason for concern where the Marlins and Nationals are concerned. He argued that the Marlins finished 17 games back of us last year. My argument isn’t necessarily that I think either of those clubs will finish ahead of us and it may not matter whether they do or not in one particular regard. My concerns where these two teams are concerned is this: both of them have played us tough for the last few seasons, and if they’re both significantly better there is no reason to believe that trend won’t continue and given the way last year ended, the records we finished with against these two teams played a large part in our not making the playoffs. — BravesFanSince80s

The Braves are 23-13 against Florida over the past two seasons. Not sure how that record has helped keep the Braves out of the playoffs.

TBrown

January 17th, 2012
11:18 am

Barry Bonds is a 1st ballot HOFer, no doubt.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
11:20 am

I don’t really see how you can keep Bonds out of the HOF. — BravesFan

Then watch, because I think you’re about to see it a year from now. And two years from now. And three….

Tommy T

January 17th, 2012
11:24 am

“Then watch, because I think you’re about to see it a year from now. And two years from now. And three….” – DOB

I think the most interesting thing to watch will be the Bonds/Clemens vote totals and how they relate to each other. IMO, their respective HOF cases are almost identical. I’m interested to see if Clemens gets in before Bonds simply because Bonds is the “poster child”.

Bill

January 17th, 2012
11:25 am

Jimmy

January 17th, 2012
11:29 am

Melky signs one year /6 mill with Giants.
Wow.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
11:30 am

I seem to recall a devastating series vs the Marlins that pretty much sealed our fate last year DOB

Murph

January 17th, 2012
11:33 am

Bonds would have been a 1st ballot HOF inductee with the numbers he was putting up while clean. He chose to cheat, he broke the rules, and now not getting in is the price he has to pay.

Whether the Hall is full of cheaters, gamblers, dog kickers, or line cutters is not and should not be a concern when evaluating the merits of Bonds or anyone else from the steroid era. If you used you should not be enshrined with the greatest who played the game.

Some things in this screwed up world need to remain sacred, and Bonds giving an acceptance speech in Cooperstown is akin to him taking a giant dump on all that is sacred to baseball fans.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
11:35 am

bravesfanssince80s I seem to recall a devastating series vs the Marlins that pretty much sealed our fate last year DOB

that sealed our fate? i guess that three game sweep by the phillies to end the season was just for fun. exhibition games, i suppose.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
11:38 am

Keep trying, BravesFanSince80s.

So you’re saying the series in which Chipper lost a two-out ninth-inning grounder in the lights and the Marlins used the freak incident to win, that series is the one the Braves should think about when they’re basing their offseason moves on countering those of their opponents (as you’d have them do)?

Oh, OK. Nevermind the 23-13 record against the Marlins over the past two seasons. Let’s go either with the Braves’ struggles against them in years before that, or that series last year during the Braves’ September collapse, when the ball-in-lights fluke was indicative of a stretch in which everything that could go wrong, did go wrong for the Braves.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
11:39 am

jeffrey doo doo

“Does everybody sell out?”

Yeah, especially when you have a Mid Market Payroll and Cheap Owners

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
11:39 am

If you had to pick just one series that sealed our fate, it would easily be the 3 game sweep by the Cards near end of season. Easily.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
11:41 am

Barry Bonds is a 1st ballot HOFer, no doubt. — TBrown

You mean he “should be” a first-ballot HOFer in your opinion, right? Because I’ll guarantee you, he won’t be.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
11:42 am

If you had to pick just one series that sealed our fate, it would easily be the 3 game sweep by the Cards near end of season.

Yeah, that one didn’t help the cause much, that’s for sure. It was after that series that I first started to believe the Braves were really, really, really screwed.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
11:43 am

I have a feeling it’s either Rangers or Nationals for Fielder, with the Rangers having a slight edge.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
11:44 am

@DAP

“that sealed our fate? i guess that three game sweep by the phillies to end the season was just for fun. exhibition games, i suppose.”

Cholly Got what he deserved for not resting his starters during the last series of the season…I hate the Cardinals more than the Phillies but Cholly Shot himself in the foot hence to the Phillies getting upset in last years NLDS

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
11:44 am

Tomahawkin – Cheap owners…if you define cheap owners as those who don’t want to lose money, or answer to shareholders if they do. Actually, the payroll is about where it should be for the level of revenue… But of course, you can’t compete unless you have one of the top payrolls in the game (when did the Yankees win their last WS?…What’s the payroll for the Rays, in the toughest division in the AL?)

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
11:45 am

raleighbravefan

“If you had to pick just one series that sealed our fate, it would easily be the 3 game sweep by the Cards near end of season. Easily.”

Co-Sign! I’m Grinding teeth thinking about it…That Effing Pujols beating Kimmie hurt BAD!

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
11:46 am

If you had to pick just one series that sealed our fate

A 20-loss month tends to give you a long list of candidates for that distinction, LOL. As if it mattered.

Obee

January 17th, 2012
11:46 am

DOB:

What’s your opinion about Pete Rose and the HOF? He may have gambled, but he sure didn’t cheat as far as I know.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
11:47 am

Efrim – I agree about Prince, except I give Nats the edge. Also, if Rangers do sign him, I expect them to let Hamilton walk after next year. Don’t know how the fans will take that.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
11:48 am

I have a feeling it’s either Rangers or Nationals for Fielder, with the Rangers having a slight edge.

If the Rangers sign him, heck, I might go to a pitching tryout camp. :-) They might not need a whole lot of pitching, and that’s exactly what I could provide: not a whole lot.

Hillbilly

January 17th, 2012
11:49 am

If you had to pick just one series that sealed our fate, it would easily be the 3 game sweep by the Cards near end of season.

More specifically, the save that Kimbrel blew when Pujols bounced the grounder through the right side…

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
11:49 am

Sorry to all of you, but I watched every game, the Marlins series was the back-breaker, they were done from that point on

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
11:51 am

Obee – Gambled…but sure didn’t cheat…Hummm. Huh? That doesn’t compute. Gambling on your own sport, especially as a manager, is an incurable cancer that must be cut out. It eleminates the integrity of the game. PERIOD. There’s a reason this is the only offense that caries the death penalty.

TBrown

January 17th, 2012
11:51 am

DOB-

Yes, in my opinion. The numbers also support it. He was a 1st ballot HOFer before any suspicion arose. On juice, possibly the best player of all time. He’ll be held out the first round on principle. After that, it’ll be a joke to keep him out.

Others were juicing..what were their numbers? Not saying it’s okay to do something because every else is doing it.. But he was 1st ballot HOFer clean. He put up the best (by far) numbers amongst the alledged juicers as well.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
11:53 am

raleighbravefan

Yes! IMHO, the Mertzes are the greatest TV characters of all time. Ethel’s comedic timing is great, and Fred is just hilarious…

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
11:54 am

Braves80’s – How does losing 2 of 3 to Marlins trump losing all 3 to the team that eventually beat you out?

Murph

January 17th, 2012
11:55 am

I understand why Rose isn’t in because of past gambling scandals, but I do not believe he ever tanked a game to make a buck. I think he’ll get in eventually, but probably not til after he’s been long dead and buried.

Braveone

January 17th, 2012
11:56 am

From the previous blog which had 4,208 comments, Efrim led the way with 307 posts. There were 308 different poster names. Here are the Top 25:

Rank Poster Frequency

1 Efrim 307
2 DS1 201
3 cabravesfan 183
4 Bat Masterson 171
5 nolie 160
6 keylargo 136
7 Venice Jim 128
8 jeffrey doo doo 122
9 Lew 105
10 Tomahawkin (The Godfather) 97
11 Ray 79
12 raleighbravefan 77
13 Coach (2012 Fredi’s beisbol fandango) 74
14 richbrave 74
15 ncscoots 71
16 Ward 69
17 Lollygagger 65
18 Patio Daddio 63
19 ChattTownBrian (CTB) 62
20 Tom O’Hawke 61
21 DAP 60
22 P’cola Brave 57
23 tiger297 57
24 Sopheee 56
25 VaBravesFan 55

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
11:59 am

If Charlie Hustle wanted to get forgiveness from MLB he should carried his butt over to Gamblers Anonymous. Become a poster child for it, started up a treatment clinic, raised a bunch of money for the cause, all that.

Of course he decide to take a different tack, he gave MLB the finger.

braves29

January 17th, 2012
12:00 pm

John Smoltz should be a first ballot HOF to win over 150 and to save 150 is a big deal and he did both well. I still think he will be on the first ballot.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
12:01 pm

Or one could say he’s been giving Vincent and Selig the finger… a new commish might get a different response out of Mr Rose… if he’s still around when a new commish takes over.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
12:05 pm

guys, I’m talking about how the team reacted, they all had that look on their faces from that point on that said the rest of the season didn’t matter because they were were lost/done. Yeah, as fans the St. Louis series hurt to watch even more, but the PLAYERS reacted to the Marlins series as if they believed the “baseball gods” had already decided their fate, that’s whay I mean…

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
12:06 pm

BravesFanSince80’s

January 17th, 2012
11:49 am
“Sorry to all of you, but I watched every game”

lol How is that Possible? I find it Darn near Impossible to watch every inning of every Game, Especially when I have Urges of Just Turning it off… :)

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
12:06 pm

I think he’ll get in eventually, but probably not til after he’s been long dead and buried

Thats what Shoeless Joe’s great grandkids think about him, too.

Lollygagger

January 17th, 2012
12:07 pm

So because the Braves lost some games to the Marlins in 2011, we should forfeit the 2012 season based on the fact that the Marlins made a few moves that might or might not work out? Is that what I’m hearing this morning? Oh boy.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
12:08 pm

BravesFanSince80’s

“guys, I’m talking about how the team reacted, they all had that look on their faces from that point on that said the rest of the season didn’t matter because they were were lost/done. Yeah, as fans the St. Louis series hurt to watch even more, but the PLAYERS reacted to the Marlins series as if they believed the “baseball gods” had already decided their fate, that’s whay I mean…”

Got Cha…!

It really hurt getting Owned by Philly AGAIN! in the Month of September…I bet the Braves have only played .400 baseball Against Philly during the Months of Aug and Sept Since the 2009 season started???

brian

January 17th, 2012
12:08 pm

did the Heat win the championship after their trades?

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
12:09 pm

He’ll be held out the first round on principle. After that, it’ll be a joke to keep him out.

Sorry man but the joke here is Mr Gianthead.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
12:09 pm

Tomahawkin’: I meant during the last couple weeks, not all 162, I find myself on a river casting a fly rod too often to watch them all

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:09 pm

Sorry to all of you, but I watched every game, the Marlins series was the back-breaker, they were done from that point on — BravesFanSince80s

After the Friday night loss (Kimbrel blown save) at St. Louis, they were done. Swept there, and from that point it was unabated stumble to finish line.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
12:11 pm

brian – Not 1, not 2, not 3, ……..

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:11 pm

DOB: What’s your opinion about Pete Rose and the HOF? He may have gambled, but he sure didn’t cheat as far as I know. — Obee

Absolutely belongs in HOF, in my opinion. For what he did as a player, nothing to do with what he did as a manager. Continue to ban him from baseball for life, as far as being back in the dugout or front office. But it’s a farce to keep him out of the HOF for his playing career.

Mike in Marietta

January 17th, 2012
12:13 pm

I think Smoltz definitely should make the hall. Glavine and Maddux by virtue of being 300 game winners should make it in their first year of eligability. Maddux deserves to be a unanimous decision for all his accomplishments even though that probably wont happen. However Smoltz in my eyes deserves to make it in his 2nd or 3rd year of eligability because he has 200+ wins and 150+ saves. No other pitcher has been one of the top pitchers in baseball in any given period at both a closers role and a starters role. If he remains in either of those roles for an entire career he puts up 300+ wins or 500-600 saves. He definitely deserves to be in the HOF sooner rather than later.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
12:14 pm

DOB – Not an argument…serious question…should Shoeless joe be in?

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
12:16 pm

It’s a shame that somebody’s going to vote “No” on Maddux’s first year. How can you say “You know what? This guy doesn’t belong in the HOF”

Hillbilly

January 17th, 2012
12:16 pm

Maddux deserves to be a unanimous decision for all his accomplishments even though that probably wont happen.

And the writer who leaves him off the first ballot as a statement because Babe Ruth didn’t get in unanimously doesn’t deserve the right to vote, in my opinion.

George

January 17th, 2012
12:18 pm

Ty Cobb

January 17th, 2012
8:16 am
Baseball is so beyond repairable..the HOF is a joke. Murph didn’t cheat and that should be an honor itself these days.
***************************************************************************
I am sorry, but a lifetime .265 hitter does not belong in HOF. We all know DALE was a very good player for the BRAVES, but he only had two full seasons that he hit .300 or better.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
12:19 pm

yeah really, the Babe Ruth argument only proves there were idiot sports writers with the unbelievable ability to decide who gets in or not even back then

Hillbilly

January 17th, 2012
12:20 pm

Same goes for Griffey and probably Randy Johnson. They deserve a unanimous vote regardless of what happened with Ruth and Cobb in 1936.

brian

January 17th, 2012
12:20 pm

seems to me it has become personal with Selig in regards to Rose

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
12:21 pm

Bonds giving an acceptance speech in Cooperstown

This image alone. I look at his other-worldly numbers, his amazing beginning to his career and all that he did. I see a player few if any have matched or bested. Do the same with Roger. But they are more than those numbers. The are the poster boys of PEDs. Seeing them give an acceptance speech would be… wrong. It just wouldn’t be right.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
12:21 pm

I don’t think Rose’s “crime against baseball” is the same as Shoeless Joe’s… Rose never tanked a game for personal profit (at least I don’t think he did).

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
12:22 pm

But Rose accepted a lifetime ban from MLB.

George

January 17th, 2012
12:23 pm

Pete Rose should be in, He has been punished enough.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:24 pm

Seeing them give an acceptance speech would be… wrong. It just wouldn’t be right. — TennPaul

There would be many fewer Hall of Famers sitting behind them on that stage, I can assure you of that. You’d be surprised how many HOFers are vehement about not letting PED users/suspects into the Hall, who say they’ll stop coming back every year for the ceremony if it happens. Some of them say the same thing about Pete Rose, unfortunately.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
12:24 pm

Michael Bourn avoids art- $6.845 according to Heyman

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
12:24 pm

arb…grrrrrr!

DAP

January 17th, 2012
12:24 pm

The Braves avoided arbitration with center fielder Michael Bourn on a deal worth $6.845MM, tweets Danny Knobler of CBS Sports.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
12:25 pm

seems to me it has become personal with Selig in regards to Rose

I don’t see that. I remember when the Braves AA team moved out of Greenville SC. A new team came in and there was a vote on what the name would be. The town wanted it to be the Greenville Joes. Greenville is the birth place of Shoeless Joe Jackson. MLB prohibited the use or reference to his name. He has been banned from all things baseball. The town was a bit displeased. So they picked a crappy name and then moved the Joe Jackson museum and birth place home right in front of the main gates and put a statue of him on main street as you drive up to the stadium. When you exit the stadium you see Joe’s home. When you get in the car to go home, you drive past Joe mashing a homerun.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
12:25 pm

I never liked Bonds, before, during, or after his steroid use, so it’s very easy for me to say he’s a cheater and a creep and should not be allowed into the Hall.

I really like Clemens. Thought he was a gifted pitcher and amazing competitor. He was one of my favorites from his early days in Boston through the end. As much as I liked him as a player, though, I don’t think he belongs in the Hall either. Makes me sad, but what he did… he’s no different in my eyes now than Bonds, a player that I’ve always despised.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:26 pm

Bourn avoids arbitration, gets raise from $4.4 mill to $6.845 million in his final season before free-agent eligibility

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
12:26 pm

Rose never tanked a game for personal profit (at least I don’t think he did).

Rose knows the answer to this and he’ll take it to his grave, unless he needs more cash. Then he’ll run out another book deal.

Lollygagger

January 17th, 2012
12:27 pm

Co-sign on the thought that Rose belongs in HOF based on his performance on the field. Put a footnote with his name if they must, but the guy HAS to be in. What he did pales in comparison to Bonds and McGuire and Clemens. They will all get in sooner or later. So should Rose, then. As far as we know, his gambling addiction did not skew game results. He didn’t petition players to throw the games or intentionally do things that would make Reds win or lose a game. Bonds’ cheating (allegedly LOL) absolutely had an impact on the games in which he played.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
12:28 pm

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it Selig’s complete devotion to Vincent (or maybe it was Giamatti) that has kept him from listening to anything regarding Pete Rose? Some promise made to his mentor about keeping Rose out of baseball?

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
12:31 pm

yeah really, the Babe Ruth argument only proves there were idiot sports writers with the unbelievable ability to decide who gets in or not even back then

A lot of guys to chose from on that first ballot. Cobb got more votes, but really shouldn’t he have been unanimous, too. What about Wagner, Mathewson, Johnson

Lollygagger

January 17th, 2012
12:32 pm

What figure were the Braves anticipating as Bourn’s salary had it actually gone to arb? Is $6.8+ million good or bad for Braves?

abwright

January 17th, 2012
12:32 pm

Wow. For a slow news day, this is actually a fairly news-worthy day.

O’Flaherty signs. Bourn signs.

JJ is the only arb eligible left.

I bet that FW gets these guys done and then looks at what he has left (if anything) to spend and looks at the remaining FA pool.

Then, looking at his 25 man and Constanza as his backup OF, he makes a move.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
12:33 pm

isn’t it Selig’s complete devotion to Vincent (or maybe it was Giamatti) that has kept him from listening to anything regarding Pete Rose? Some promise made to his mentor about keeping Rose out of baseball?

I had no idea Paul Giamatti was so adamant about baseball and Pete Rose. Impressive. Loved him in Sideways.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:34 pm

Ethier got one year, $10.95 mill from Dodgers.

brian

January 17th, 2012
12:35 pm

if Bourn and the Braves came to a mutual agreement it is a good agreement for both Lollygagger. The Braves would not agree to a bad contract at this time.

abwright

January 17th, 2012
12:35 pm

I suspect that Pete Rose gets into the HoF post-mortem.

I agree that his playing career was HoF worthy (and then some). His off-field antics largely came after his career was over (although betting when he was player/manager may blur this).

Bonds and Shoeless are different cases than Rose. Their (alleged) cheating affected outcomes of games, in one case the World Serious.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
12:37 pm

Is $6.8+ million good or bad for Braves?

Good. This is the last year of Arb for Bourn. These salaries are comparable in Arb hearings. Had it settled at over $10M salary increases would move faster. The more teams which settle for lower numbers, the slower salaries increase.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:37 pm

Wow: Phillies and Cole Hamels avoid arbitration with 1-year, $15 million deal, confirms @ToddZolecki of MLB.com on Twitter

abwright

January 17th, 2012
12:38 pm

Speaking of the “career worst” year for many Braves in 2011, how many folks remember ‘82? The team before and after was pretty mediocre. But, in ‘82, a lot of Braves had their career best year.

Maybe 2011 was the Baseball Gods’ long delayed payback for ‘82.

VaBravesfan

January 17th, 2012
12:38 pm

My favorite nickname for the Braves bullpen was (amd i may have them in the wrong order): Shut up, Sit down and Go home.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
12:39 pm

Their (alleged) cheating affected outcomes of games, in one case the World Serious.

“Allegedly” impacted the World For-Reals-Yall

Lollygagger

January 17th, 2012
12:42 pm

Based on his numbers as a player and numbers as a manager, I’m pretty sure Pete Rose’s consideration into the HOF would be as a player, not as a manager. So let’s judge Pete Rose based on what he did when he played the game of baseball. And then let God sort out his moral issues. :lol:

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
12:43 pm

Bat Masterson, Babe Ruth should have been the first guy in by himself and let everybody else in afterwards, anything less was disrespectful and unrealistic, Babe Ruth IS major league baseball to this very day. The most impressive sports record in the history of our great nation is Ruth’s 60 home runs when no other TEAM hit 60. A giant among men and will forever be the greatest player the game has ever known, those writers were fools…

Felix

January 17th, 2012
12:44 pm

Great that O is set for 2012. But,

WE NEED MORE OFFENSE!!!

Random

January 17th, 2012
12:45 pm

raleighbravefan (January 17th, 2012 10:02 am): “Doogie to Barney…totally different characters. 2 Barneys totally different as well. Barney Fife was one of the truly great characters in the history of TV.”

raleighbravefan, McFann — Howzabout Barney Miller???????

A strong character (Hal Linden), and a VERY good show for 6 or 7 seasons (’75 — ‘82).

Do not dismiss what you do not know.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
12:49 pm

IMO Had P Rose had handled it differently he would have already been in the HOF. His arrogance and nose up at everyone including his former teammates, Morgan, Bench, Schmidt just to name a few all tried to talk to him. He snubbed those guys. Many many years ago, I saw an interview with Bench and during their playing days, JB apparently went to Sparky and told him of the characters that Rose was hanging around. I admit I am a bit biased against Rose. I don’t like him. Couldn’t stand him as a player. Respected his numbers as they speak for themselves. His arrogance against the game and everyone rubs me the wrong way.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
12:49 pm

What’s up, folks? The holidays and just after are usually very busy for me, but we are entering slow time, so I’m back. I’m sure many aren’t too excited about that.

Any good discussions lately?

Regarding the Hall of Fame, it’s not a pure place. The voters never worried about integrity and character before but now, all of sudden when it comes to PED’s, they want to take “integrity” and “character” into account.

When Mickey Mantle was showing up to games with hangovers, the writers brushed it aside, when it came time to vote him in. Yet when someone takes a substance to improve his game, the writers consider that as a mark against his character and integrity.

Baseball wasn’t innocent, a Garden of Eden, until the serpent of steroids and PED’s came along. Baseball has never been a pure sport.

Yes, take PED’s into account. If a guy is borderline and we know he used PED’s, don’t vote for him. But if a guy is a Hall of Famer overwhelmingly, put him in.

Ruth, for most of his career, did not give it his all. Is that a display of integrity? Mantle showed up to work with hangovers. Did Mantle possess integrity? Gaylord Perry used substances to doctor baseballs. What does that say about the integrity of the game? Cobb and Ruth got into fist fights with umps. Character and integrity? What about the players who used amphetamines?

Denny

January 17th, 2012
12:50 pm

Ludwick is better than Diaz. Could’ve signed him but instead are stuck with pathetic Matt and who knows what from Hinske anymore. I know what they’re thinking which is give it all until July or later ti see how it all plays out before pulling the trigger on any trade. Problem the way I see it is Diaz and Hinske suck and Constanza shouldn’t even be playing in the majors. That leaves Bourn and Heyward as your full time outfielders, while Prado is part time because he will need to be covering Jones so much at 3rd.

Man, the Braves have to know this too which makes me pretty convinced they’re broke. Doesn’t matter what they said because a lot of them are like crooked politicians feeding people complete lies with a straight face. No shame in it at all. They look at it as business as usual.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
12:53 pm

Pleased with the price tag for Bourn.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
12:54 pm

Bat Masterson, Babe Ruth should have been the first guy in by himself and let everybody else in afterwards, anything less was disrespectful _ BravesFanSince80’s

Yeah, I don’t know about all that. Sure Ruth should have been unanimous but Cobb should have been, too.

My opinion is Ruth was the best baseball player ever. I get why people don’t want anyone to be elected unanimously since he wasn’t, but I’m not sure it’s a valid point.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
12:54 pm

When Mickey Mantle was showing up to games with hangovers, the writers brushed it aside, when it came time to vote him in. Yet when someone takes a substance to improve his game, the writers consider that as a mark against his character and integrity. Shaun

Correct. I wouldn’t disagree with that assessment of the situation for the majority of writers. I know it’s how I view it.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
12:55 pm

Basically it seems to me that a segment of writers want to take a moralist approach because they think it makes them look better to keep out those lousy PED cheats. They don’t think about all the other guys who lacked integrity, character and common decency who are already in the Hall of Fame. And please spare me the idea that PED’s were more of an on-field problem that affected the outcome of games and the record books. Do you think amphetamines, segregation, players showing up with hangovers or drunk did not affect the outcome of games? Do you think that players consorting with gamblers (and it wasn’t just the Black Sox) did not affect the outcome of games?

Can we please get over this flawed idea that the game was pure and the record books untainted until PED’s came along? Let’s think this through, people.

TBrown

January 17th, 2012
12:56 pm

Welcome back, Shaun.

Denny

January 17th, 2012
12:58 pm

How do they just sit there and not get at least one impact type hitter after that embarrassing stretch run? And it was the offense as the main problem. Hell they wore they’re pitching down because they’re so unclutch. Yeah, put it all on the hitting coach there Braves. He is replaceable, right? Sort of shady work there imo. Maybe Parrish wasn’t right for the job, but if he was really the problem as Braves apparently believed, then why in the hell wasn’t he let go long before that collapse? They needed a scape goat. Pathetic. I never once saw Larry take one hack up there last year.

Hesalive

January 17th, 2012
12:58 pm

Braves bullpen will once again close the door on opposing teams. Lots of ifs but the Braves will once again field a formidable lineup.

CB

January 17th, 2012
12:58 pm

Anybody figured out what our projected payroll is yet? BOURN and O’ paid less than some of projections,might leave a little extra to bring in Cody Ross.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
12:58 pm

Any good discussions lately? Shaun

We had some old sit-com discussion lately. Bringing up Ellie Mae Clampett made DOB feel young so thats something, I guess. Of course I know about her from re-runs.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
12:59 pm

What was Ellie’s WAR?

Random

January 17th, 2012
1:01 pm

@ncscoots (January 17th, 2012 10:16 am) –

“Dinghy”.

LOL!!!

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
1:02 pm

When it comes to Bonds, there is little doubt that he was a Hall of Fame player, with or without PED’s. Yes, he’s probably an anti- or un-social jerk. Yes, he used PED’s and that probably affected the record books. Yes, he was unfaithful in his marriage.

For those writers who want to invoke the “character and integrity clause,” how is Bonds all that different from Ruth, Mantle, Cobb and countless others when it comes to common standards of character and integrity?

So if a writer wants to argue that the Hall should kick out Ruth, Mantle, Cobb and others, I will take their arguments against PED users as well thought-out. Otherwise, the anti-PED writers are just inconsistent and are probably taking a self-serving stand against PED’s rather than thinking through their positions.

CB

January 17th, 2012
1:02 pm

I disagree that a person who takes PEDS to help them perform better should be characterized with the idiots who drank or drugged up and harmed themselves and their teams. They both were wrong but one is a cheat and the other is an idiot.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
1:03 pm

Shaun

“What’s up, folks? The holidays and just after are usually very busy for me, but we are entering slow time, so I’m back. I’m sure many aren’t too excited about that.

Any good discussions lately?”

I Was wondering what happened to you? And No, No good rumblings with the Braves….

Since Your back, You can Hold Down The Throne during the Afternoon hours,

“Remember Me? I told You That The World Was Yours!” :)

brian

January 17th, 2012
1:03 pm

writers will also brush away Bobby Cox picking his nose and Greg Maddux picking his nose and wiping it on somebody. Mickey’s drinking did not affect the integrity of the game but it did help lead to bad health conditions that ultimately cost him his life. PEDs affect the integrity of the game

DawgDad

January 17th, 2012
1:04 pm

MLB did Rose a huge favor cutting the deal to seal his file.

Closing off investigation into past PED use after the Mitchell report effectively left a cloud of suspicion hanging over all the players. There’s a reason for having HOF voters – to exercise judgment. Let them judge and let the chips fall where they may.

No problem paying O’Flaherty – he earned it and figures to keep earning it.

I still don’t like the makeup of the Braves roster. The Phillies are built according to the traditional formula, strong up the middle supporting stellar starting pitching and a good bullpen. The Braves are very weak defensively at second and at short (until they prove otherwise); Uggla has no upside defensively, and his inability to hit left-handed pitching exacerbated the imbalance in the lineup. Chipper’s total lack of lateral range will be painfully apparent without AGon, and McCann has trouble throwing out runners.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
1:05 pm

Can we please get over this flawed idea that the game was pure and the record books untainted until PED’s came along? Let’s think this through, people. _ Shaun

Nice to have you back, Shaun.

Now that the niceties are out of the way, what’s all this we sh*t.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
1:05 pm

Oh Boy, The Ryan Ludwick trade talks are back, Sigh…

Ray

January 17th, 2012
1:07 pm

Whether its fair or not, back in those days, the writers hung around the players.It was more personal, so yes some writers would sweep things under the carpet. It was like ratting on their friend. That has not been the case in a long time. Of course I think a lot of writers are and have formed their own opinions. Some will and do vote for Mark M and others and others will not. And I wonder how many of the writers are letting the players that are in the HOF sway them.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
1:07 pm

From Jason Stark on Twitter: Cole Hamels’ $15-million deal is highest ever for an arb-eligible pitcher who was not a free agent (i.e., Clemens) – for now anyway.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
1:10 pm

So if a writer wants to argue that the Hall should kick out Ruth, Mantle, Cobb and others…

I’d be interested in listening to this as I didn’t think it was in the rule books that the writers could go back and remove players whom they’ve previously voted in. Is it DOB?

Or was this just an exceedingly crude example not based in reality? A rather simplistic argument: The writers have failed in the past and therefore should not even attempt to do the right thing going forward.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
1:13 pm

Babe Ruth didn’t have to sharpen his spikes, scream obscenities at opposing players, cut people up on the basepaths and generally do everything within his power to be the biggest horse’s a s s in the game in order to scare and intimidate everybody he played against in order to get on base. For chrissakes if a guy threatens to kill me if I don’t let him on and I believe him, I’m gonna throw him a gimme pitch too…

CB

January 17th, 2012
1:13 pm

JJ settles for 5.5 million.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:14 pm

Prado – 4.75
EOF – 2.49
Bourn – 6.845

Total – 14.085 million

That seems about right. Jurrjens will get something like 5 million and the Braves will come in at 19 million for their 4 arbitration eligible players.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
1:16 pm

Jurrjens agrees to terms on 1-year deal w/ Braves, who avoid arbitration with any players. MLBTR reports it’s $5.5M salary with $25,000 each for 175, 180, 190, 200, 210, and 215 innings (that’s $150,000 maximum in incentives)

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:17 pm

Prado – 4.75
EOF – 2.49
Bourn – 6.845
Jurrjens – 5.5

Total – 19.585 million

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
1:18 pm

When was the last time the Braves had a player go to arbitration?

Mark's for the Braves

January 17th, 2012
1:18 pm

“O” deserves the big raise. Kind of wish he was the set up man and Venters was the 7th inning guy, but I guess I’m not too upset about the way it is now. Anyway, so glad to have O’Flaherty signed for 2012. Now, any way we can get a big RH OF bat? Still wishing…………..

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
1:18 pm

TennesseePaul, well, at least give credence to the fact that there are players already in the Hall who are just as reprehensible as any PED user and acknowledge it in the arguments against PED users. To invoke the character and integrity clause for PED users but then not address the inconsistencies this creates when it comes to players already in the Hall versus PED users is just lazy.

The argument “The writers have failed in the past and therefore should not even attempt to do the right thing going forward.” means that one must be willing to argue that Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry and others shouldn’t have been admitted. If one argues that, in addition to taking a stand against PED’s, I would have respect for his or her consistency. But you’d be hard-pressed to find a writer who thinks Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry, etc. don’t belong in the Hall and willing to argue that point when making the arguments against PED users.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
1:18 pm

Murph – Shoeless Joe took the money, but didn’t tank any games (check his WS stats)

Random – Barney Miller (Hal Lindon) was terrific…but doesn’t come close to Barney Fife.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
1:18 pm

When Mickey Mantle was showing up to games with hangovers, the writers brushed it aside, when it came time to vote him in. Yet when someone takes a substance to improve his game, the writers consider that as a mark against his character and integrity.

Your time away didn’t improve your intelligence much.

Mantle’s drinking and Bonds use of steroids are in absolutely no way comparable. No matter how you twist it, not comparable.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
1:19 pm

5.5. Mill Sal???

WOW, good deal

That Salary Figure will double if not triple once he hits free agency, Watch

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
1:19 pm

jeffrey doo doo, Francoeur went to arbitration, I’m pretty sure. I’m not sure if he’s the last.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
1:19 pm

Murph

[When Mickey Mantle was showing up to games with hangovers, the writers brushed it aside, when it came time to vote him in. Yet when someone takes a substance to improve his game, the writers consider that as a mark against his character and integrity.]

“Your time away didn’t improve your intelligence much.”

ouch

DAP

January 17th, 2012
1:21 pm

VaBravesFan My favorite nickname for the Braves bullpen was (amd i may have them in the wrong order): Shut up, Sit down and Go home.

thats a good one. i love the guys on the radio: “and ANOTHER strikeout for shut up, with sit down warming in the ‘pen!”

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
1:22 pm

For chrissakes if a guy threatens to kill me if I don’t let him on and I believe him, I’m gonna throw him a gimme pitch too… _ BravesFanSince80’s

Not me. I would have done the same thing I did to the 15 year old bully (when I was 10) that was picking on my 6 year old brother. Punch him in the freakin’ mouth.

DawgDad

January 17th, 2012
1:23 pm

“Can we please get over this flawed idea that the game was pure and the record books untainted until PED’s came along? Let’s think this through, people.”

Who has that idea? There are almost certainly players in the Hall who threw games, beat up fans, gambled, played under the influence, intentionally attempted to injure opposing players, associated with gangsters, were openly racist, and all manner of other offenses. Anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of the history of the game knows this. Might even be a player or two who were ALL of this, and more.

The problem with PEDs is they distorted (enhancing, for the most part) the accomplishments of the player/users. Most of the other “impurities” did NOT have this effect (amphetamines likely an exception).

So, how do you fairly judge accomplishments? We KNOW Bonds, Palmeiro, and McGwire and ARod have hit home runs they would not have hit otherwise, but how many? What pitchers benefitted, and to what extent? Baseball isn’t like the Olympics, where the medal of a “caught” doper can be passed off to the runner-up. I ask you this: Excluding all the effects of PEDs, who would have hit the most home runs between, say, 1994 and 2008? Driven in the most runs? Posted the highest batting average, or the most hits? We’ll NEVER know.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:23 pm

Using a $5.5 million estimate for Jurrjens, and an average of $500,000 for all pre-arb players, the Braves payroll obligations current stand at around $90.2 million. Since $500,000 is a bit high for pre-arb players, the real total is likely lower than this number.

Looks like they might have a little bit of room to add a player, but I’m not sure they will want to. It might be more effective to save that money for a mid-season trade, in case the team want to add a little payroll then.

Colbrave

January 17th, 2012
1:23 pm

Francoeur didn’t go to arb.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:24 pm

Ha….between the time I wrote that post and actually posted it, news came out that Jurrjens agreed to a contract of $5.5 million. So just take the word “estimate” out of what I’ve written above.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:25 pm

Jones – 14
Uggla – 13.2
McCann – 11.66
Lowe – 10
Hudson – 9

Bourn – 6.845
Jurrjens – 5.5
Prado – 4.75
O’Flaherty – 2.49

Diaz – 1.125
Hinske – 1.5
Ross – 1.625
Wilson – 1

Total for 12 players – 82.695 million
13 players @ avg. minimum salary – 6.76 million

Total payroll for 2012 – 89.455 million

Possible incentives:
Jurrjens – .025-.150
Wilson – .2

I’m sure there will be more incentives for players that sign minimum salary contracts for plate appearances, etc. But there you have it, a 90 million dollar payroll.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:26 pm

So, how do you fairly judge accomplishments? We KNOW Bonds, Palmeiro, and McGwire and ARod have hit home runs they would not have hit otherwise, but how many?

I don’t think we know that at all. We can very strongly assume that to be the case, and there is certainly strong evidence that suggest it was likely. But we don’t really “KNOW” anything.

abby normal

January 17th, 2012
1:27 pm

raleighbravefan…….see DOB’s response. He said it much better than I could have.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:28 pm

Since $500,000 is a bit high for pre-arb players, the real total is likely lower than this number.

I think the minimum salary for next year is 490K, so I’d bet it’s higher than 500K for the average salary that we are paying to pre-arb players. Add potential incentives and I think we are basically at where we were last year.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:30 pm

Efrim,

Cot’s has Diaz at $2.125 for 2012. I know that Pittsburgh sent some money to the Braves to help offset his salary, but I’m not sure that any of that money was applied to 2012.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:30 pm

JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Frank Wren Braves GM has busy day avoiding salary arbitration with Jurrjens, Prado and Bourn..he’ll join us on Sirius 209 and XM 89 2pm est

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
1:30 pm

Murph, you’re right. Mantle showing up with a hangover or drunk is worse, in some ways. He’s basically helping the Yankees’ opponent. At least with Bonds and PED users, they actually are improving their teams’ chances. So, yes, those things are not completely comparable.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:31 pm

I didn’t realize the minimum was raised all the way to $490K this year. $500K per player probably is a low estimate in that case.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:32 pm

RC, yeah I took a guess based on what discussion we had here and I think some of it was for 2012, as he was acquired with one month left in the season. I guess they might of just forked over 350K. That made more sense to me, anyway. If we didn’t get anything toward 2012, then we are at 90.455 million, and perhaps slightly more with incentives.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
1:33 pm

Murph, you’re right. Mantle showing up with a hangover or drunk is worse, in some ways. He’s basically helping the Yankees’ opponent. At least with Bonds and PED users, they actually are improving their teams’ chances. So, yes, those things are not completely comparable.

Did they mess up and push your hair transplants too deep and into your brain?

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:33 pm

$500K per player probably is a low estimate in that case.

I did it at 520K = 6.76 million for 13 pre-arb players, but even that may be low.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
1:35 pm

Braves can be thankful for the flawed arb system this year — they’re paying just below $9 million total for stolen-base leader Bourn in his final year of arb and for relief ERA leader O’Flaherty in his second year of arb. If arb system didn’t favor homers, saves, etc., and slight steals, defense, holds and such, those two salaries would be significantly higher.

keylargo

January 17th, 2012
1:35 pm

I sure wish if the Braves keep Prado, they would keep him in LF. Last year he was not quite league average at either 3B or LF but I think he has a higher upside in LF. Bouncing around between positions has to take away a little from his overall defense and if he concentrates at one at least he could be average there.

You rest Chipper and all of a sudden you have Diaz in LF and Prado at 3rd and 2 below average fielders on the left side.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:38 pm

So, Braves are operating at around 90-91 million to start the 2012 season, and could be more with incentives to certain players and anyone that they bring in through trade during the season. Although if we’re talking a slight increase as Frank Wren said, we don’t have very much to work with. And most likely not enough to sign a player like Cody Ross or anyone else for that matter without moving some other payroll.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
1:39 pm

http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mantlmi01.shtml

Mantle really helped out the Yankees’ opponents… that career .421 OBP really dragged his team down.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
1:40 pm

Random

I didn’t say anything about Barney Miller. I’ve only ever seen like two episodes, so there’s not much I cann say…my Grandparents love that show, though…

DAP

January 17th, 2012
1:41 pm

Shaun I’m back. I’m sure many aren’t too excited about that.

good to see you Shaun.

how is Bonds all that different from Ruth, Mantle, Cobb and countless others when it comes to common standards of character and integrity?

maybe it isnt HIS integrity, but the integrity of his accomplishments. They arent real, they are artificially inflated. im just saying that cussing, cheating on your wife, or showing up drunk doesnt make you put up better stats. that makes it different, and makes it a tough situation.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:41 pm

Although if we’re talking a slight increase as Frank Wren said, we don’t have very much to work with. And most likely not enough to sign a player like Cody Ross or anyone else for that matter without moving some other payroll.

Unless they plan on outright dumping Diaz (which I find unlikely), I they don’t have the roster space for anyone else without moving payroll anyway. So while there is no payroll room, any more additions would require moving someone off the roster, freeing up that player’s salary for the new addition.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
1:42 pm

The problem with PEDs is they distorted (enhancing, for the most part) the accomplishments of the player/users. Most of the other “impurities” did NOT have this effect (amphetamines likely an exception).

I think changing the makeup of the baseballs, segregation, internationalism, turning a blind eye to players consorting with gamblers, lowering and raising the mound, changing stadium dimensions, etc. all distort the accomplishments of players.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
1:46 pm

DAP, showing up drunk or hung over doesn’t inflate a player’s accomplishments. It deflates them, which is in some sense worse.

Murph, imagine Mantle’s OBP if he didn’t drink.

I agree that Mantle was still obviously a Hall of Famer, even with the alcohol problems and still was worth a lot more to his team than most players who were choir boys. That’s sort of the point. If a player like Mantle is in the Hall of Fame, even though he did a lot to affect the integrity of the game by not taking care of his body and getting the most out of his skills every day, players like Bonds should be in.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
1:48 pm

I see we are back to the robot argument.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
1:49 pm

It’s still absolutely insane to me that Jacoby Ellsbury hit 32 home runs last year. Never saw half that power coming from his bat. Crazy.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
1:49 pm

well, at least give credence to the fact that there are players already in the Hall who are just as reprehensible as any PED user and acknowledge it in the arguments against PED users.

It seems rather pointless. The voters today, as per my understanding of the system, have no say in players who are already in the hall of fame. Giving “credence” to it has zero bearing on how one views their their own personal vote for players for whom they can actually vote. Today’s voters don’t have the option to vote on Ruth. Ruth is a hall of famer. It doesn’t matter one wit what anyone says today about hit integrity. That’s the honor and glory of being in the Hall of Fame. The presence of hall members of questionable integrity does not preclude current voters from utilizing integrity as a qualifier for their own vote.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
1:49 pm

shaun showing up drunk or hung over doesn’t inflate a player’s accomplishments. It deflates them, which is in some sense worse.

i understand that argument if you are just talking about the integrity of the player (although i disagree that its worse), but what IM saying is that Bonds’ numbers have to be called into question, because he doesnt hit 71 homers without help.

Bonds’ accomplishments are in question because of PEDs, while Mantle’s are not in question because of alcohol.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:51 pm

What if Bonds had used PEDs AND shown up to games hungover? Would the two cancel each other out, therefore making him HOF worthy again?

While numbers are fun in baseball, we get WAY too tied up in them IMO. If Willie Mays hadn’t played so much of his career in Candlestick Park, he might have broken Ruth’s HR record long before Aaron. If Ruth hadn’t played in Yankee Stadium with it’s short porch, there’s not telling what his legacy would be. If the baseballs weren’t juiced in the 90’s (ignoring the players for a moment), then maybe we don’t have some of the wild seasons we did, and the numbers are never questioned. The truth is that there a MANY variables that go into a player’s stats over the course of even a season, much less a career. There are changes in technology (maple bats and helmets), strategy (fewer hit-and-runs and focus on power), nutrition (legal as well as illegal), even the rules themselves (integration, the lowered pitcher’s mound, and the DH). Let’s just accept each era for what it is, and recognize that there were great players in each of them.

It’s certainly the right of the Hall of Fame voters to vote as they see fit, but they should recognize that if they exclude the best players for whatever reason then they risk pushing themselves into irrelevance as younger fans care less about the reasons.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
1:51 pm

I’m not going to get into this argument with you Shaun because there’s no need. I am right. You are wrong. It’s that simple.

You twist and turn and spin to make things fit your distorted point of view and, I have to admit, there are times when your posts are almost convincing. However, this time, with this argument, no amount of Shauntastic spin can change the fact that comparing Bonds to Mantle has zero basis in reality.

Zero.

RC

January 17th, 2012
1:54 pm

Bonds’ accomplishments are in question because of PEDs, while Mantle’s are not in question because of alcohol.

I think Mantle’s numbers are in question because of alcohol, but the question is whether or not they should be higher. And since they were high enough to clear the HoF bar, noboby cares how much higher they might have been….they were good enough.

Kobie

January 17th, 2012
1:54 pm

DOB, I know you keep saying that chances of signing Bourn long term are not great due to Boras client and money involved. My question, is the payroll ever going to be above 90 million and how are we as fans to take every year we get someone who is only going to last a year maybe 2 at the most and be gone? I mean really, what incentive is there for me to continue to support the team only to see our best players keep leaving and never any money to replace them? We can’t always keep going on the cheap and is there never any money?

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
1:56 pm

McFann – Your Grandparent?!!…Good grief!

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
1:57 pm

Not sure what we are actually at Re payroll vs limit….but we still need a SS.

Couch Tater

January 17th, 2012
1:57 pm

Random – Barney Miller had a great cast. Steve Landesberg was a favorite. Also, Andy Kauffman and the cast from Taxi.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:00 pm

as younger fans care less about the reasons.

I don’t think this message will be lost on “younger fans.” What is happening here is an outright rejection by the majority of society of the use of steroids in athletics. It’s international actually. Cycling has these rules. It has stripped riders of titles based on these rules. Soccer has them. The Olympics have them. I would imagine if baseball were to enshrine admitted and outed steroid users to appease a morally apathetic youth, it would lose relevance to the rest of the world who actually cares. And the rest of the world does actually care as evidenced by the presence of testing programs practically everywhere. The complaint is largely centered around the strength, or lack thereof, of programs. Not that there is one.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
2:01 pm

raleighbravefan

What? What’s the matter?? 8O

Ray

January 17th, 2012
2:02 pm

Kobie, My question to you is must a team have a payroll over 90m or even 100m to win? And if so does that pretty much assure a winning team? I am assuming winning team as a World Series contender.

brian

January 17th, 2012
2:04 pm

maybe Mantle played better while drinking. I remember hearing in college all the time how different people played pool, darts, golf, etc., better when they were drinking :)

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:06 pm

2012
1 Jones, Chipper 3B $14,000,000.00
2 Uggla, Dan 2B $13,200,000.00
3 McCann, Brian C $11,666,667.00
4 Hudson, Tim SP $9,000,000.00
5 Bourn, Michael CF $6,845,000.00
6 Jurrjens, Jair SP $5,500,000.00
7 Prado, Martin LF $4,750,000.00
8 O’Flaherty, Eric LHP $2,490,000.00
9 Diaz, Matt LF $2,125,000.00
10 Ross, David C $1,625,000.00
11 Hinske, Eric 1B $1,500,000.00
12 Wilson, Jack SS $1,000,000.00
13 Heyward, Jason OF $500,000.00
14 Hanson, Tommy SP $500,000.00
15 Medlen, Kris RHP $500,000.00
16 Venters, Jonny LHP $500,000.00
17 Kimbrel, Craig RHP $500,000.00
18 Martinez, Cristhian RHP $500,000.00
19 Beachy, Brandon SP $500,000.00
20 Freeman, Freddie 1B $500,000.00
21 Fish, Robert LHP $500,000.00
22 Minor, Mike SP $500,000.00
23 Pastornicky, Tyler SS $500,000.00
24 Jose Constanza OF $500,000.00
25 Vizcaino, Arodys RHP $500,000.00
Lowe, Derek $10,000,000.00
Matt Diaz $(1,000,000.00)

TOTAL – ATL – O/D $89,201,667.00

According to what DOB heard it was close to half the contract what the Pirates sent along with Diaz.

So payroll is around 89,101,667- 90,201,667 depending on the Diaz money.

Enquiring Minds Want to Know

January 17th, 2012
2:07 pm

DOB,

I’m going to take issue with your opinion that Rose should be in the HOF based on his achievements as a player. I think gambling (and I imagine MLB agrees with this) is the “evil which cannot be named” for MLB. The suggestion that players gamble on games undermines the illusion that the contest is “real” and the outcome in doubt.

You can complain about a player’s character, but that doesn’t alter the facts of his career. You can say that a player cheated by scuffing a ball or taking a banned drug, but in both cases the player is trying to gain a competitive advantage for the purposes of winning the game. But if the player is accused of gambling, then the idea of a player possibly throwing the game is introduced to the fan. It doesn’t matter when the player did it, or even if he was betting on himself to win.

The idea of gambling is an existential threat to MLB’s business. Those creditably accused of it will be “disappeared” to the best of its ability. I can’t say I blame them.

RC

January 17th, 2012
2:08 pm

TennesseePaul,

Cycling has these rules, yet it’s pretty much universally acknowledged that almost everyone in the sport is dirty.

The best example of Americans not caring to me is the NFL. We are supposed to believe that it’s at all natural for a 285 lb. man to have a 32-inch waist and run a 4.4 40? Please. Yet it’s by far the most popular sport in America, printing money from week to week.

I’m not arguing that baseball shouldn’t have standards, and that it shouldn’t do it’s best to enforce those standards. I do think it’s wrong to try and “punish” a player for something that the sport itself wasn’t enforcing at all at the time the player played, especially in cases where there is no evidence that the player broke the rule (such as Bagwell). But I’m not arguing that either. My argument is that if the Hall of Fame refuses entry to the very best players, it will soon cease to be an actual Hall of Fame. It will be the Hall of Players Who We Think Did It Cleanly, Although We Have No Evidence to Support That Fact and Who’s Stats Were Pretty Good But Not the Best of Their Era. And if that’s what it wants to be, that’s fine, but it’s the first step toward irrelevance.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
2:09 pm

TennesseePaul, right. The voters can do nothing about Ruth. But in order to make a consistent argument, they would need to address why they think someone like Ruth is a Hall of Famer, with all the shenanigans he pulled, while PED users are not. If Ruth is not a good enough example for you, try Cobb or Mantle or Gaylord Perry or some player who consorted with gamblers. It’s about making a nuanced argument that is consistent, and not being intellectually lazy.

RC, there are some numbers that do a better job of taking into account things like ballpark and era than some other numbers. I agree that the basic, most easily accessible numbers don’t tell us a whole lot. The most helpful numbers are those that go beyond just numbers, like how many hits a player got or how many homers a player hit, and actually get into how a player performed and affected his teams’ chances to win. No number is perfect because there are so many variables that affect a players numbers. But some numbers are much more affected by those variables and some do a better job of taking variables into account. But no number can take every variable into account. That doesn’t mean that you go with the ones that are more affected by those variables. You go with the ones that best take those variables into account and keep in mind that there are other variables as well that it’s hard to account for.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
2:09 pm

Prado, O’Flaherty, Jurrjens & Bourn will make $19.585M in ‘12, nearly $8M more than the four arb-eligibles made in ‘11

Denny

January 17th, 2012
2:13 pm

If a trade were to happen, and I mean a big IF, it would happen soon since they now know exactly what they have to work with. It will almost certainly be one through trade since one or two guys would have to move to acquire another player with some sorry of salary on him. Then again, they might find a taker for JJ that’s willing to part with a good prospect or two.

sri

January 17th, 2012
2:15 pm

Efrim, What about the 1.25million buyout of McLouth? Does’nt that count towards the 2012 salary?

Random

January 17th, 2012
2:16 pm

BravesFanSince80’s (January 17th, 2012 12:05 pm): “guys, I’m talking about how the team reacted, they all had that look on their faces from that point on that said the rest of the season didn’t matter because they were were lost/done. Yeah, as fans the St. Louis series hurt to watch even more, but the PLAYERS reacted to the Marlins series as if they believed the “baseball gods” had already decided their fate, that’s whay I mean…”

Your and idiot.

What more can I say?

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
2:17 pm

McFann – I knew you were young, but…well, actually, I’m just old.

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:18 pm

sri they paid it in 2011 so I didn’t figure it in the 2012 payroll

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
2:19 pm

The suggestion that players gamble on games undermines the illusion that the contest is “real” and the outcome in doubt. _ Enquiring Minds Want to Know

What do you mean by undermines the illusion?

Is baseball really just a well disguised professional wrestling equivalent. If so they need better villains, though Zambrano is a pretty good one.

RC

January 17th, 2012
2:20 pm

Efrim, What about the 1.25million buyout of McLouth? Does’nt that count towards the 2012 salary?

No. Braves accrued that over the years that McLouth was actually with the team, since they anticipated taking the buyout from the very beginning.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:21 pm

The voters can do nothing about Ruth. But in order to make a consistent argument, they would need to address why they think someone like Ruth is a Hall of Famer, with all the shenanigans he pulled, while PED users are not.

Actually, no they wouldn’t. It’s their own vote. They vote on players today. They don’t have to reconcile with the choices of the voters of the past.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:22 pm

RC, the NFL argument doesn’t work well with me. I don’t follow it. I do rather enjoy pointing at the PED use in the NFL as a reason not to watch it.

sri

January 17th, 2012
2:22 pm

Tomas, RC.. The Braves accounting shenanigans.. forgot about them.. thanks..

RC

January 17th, 2012
2:22 pm

Is baseball really just a well disguised professional wrestling equivalent. If so they need better villains, though Zambrano is a pretty good one.

Bonds was a good one for a while, but he was kind of boring. Hit HR, stare, trot bases. Zambrano is much more entertaining…maybe he can teach Hanley a thing or two about being a good villian.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
2:22 pm

I’m in between

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:22 pm

Braves have about 3 million to spend if we’re lucky.

If Cody Ross takes 2 years 6 million, it could work, maybe pay 2.5 this year, and 3.5 the next

Murph

January 17th, 2012
2:22 pm

So, with these guys avoiding arbitration… how much does Wren have left to spend?

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:23 pm

What about the 1.25million buyout of McLouth? Does’nt that count towards the 2012 salary?

I always assume buyouts are paid in the previous year or offseason. And we’ve heard often that they may have even split it up over the duration of his current deal, so I didn’t include it in my estimate. Overall though, I think we’re in between 90 and 91 million in salary for 2012. Any real additions beyond a minor leaguer with incentives for making the team is going to require us to move money, I think.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
2:23 pm

Trade Diaz to anyone who will take him for whatever they are willing to offer in return, sign Ross, and get ready for spring training.

RC

January 17th, 2012
2:23 pm

TennesseePaul,

I don’t really care for the NFL either. But I can’t argue with the fact that they are by far the most popular sport in America. Practically printing money.

Back the villians discussion, I think Chipper was a pretty good one for the Mets.

abwright

January 17th, 2012
2:24 pm

Steroids, Hall of Fame, Barney Miller, great day on the blog.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
2:25 pm

Four Arb players will make almost $8 M more in 2012….there’s at least most of your phantom “extra money to spend” on free agents.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:25 pm

Ben_Duronio Ben Duronio
The incentives in Jurrjens’ deal have me worried that he’s kept.

So, that signals that he’s being kept to him? Not the fact that he’s still on the roster here on January 17th with very few, if any, teams looking for serious starting pitching?

Ray

January 17th, 2012
2:26 pm

I am guessing, IF Wren needed an extra mil to sign a player he thinks is going to make a difference, he could probably get it. Could be wrong but don’t think so. I just don’t see C Ross agreeing to a 1 yr deal around 3m.

alanfalcon

January 17th, 2012
2:28 pm

Cograts “O”, its great to see you get the raise, keep it going, I really enjoy watching you carve up hitters !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
2:28 pm

RC, another problem with the voters is there reliance on stats just because of the popularity and accessibility of those stats and ignoring the stats that actually tell them something meaningful about how the player performed and increased his team’s chances to win.

If Raines had 400 more hits, he’d be in; even though he had 1,330 walks and reached base more times than Tony Gwynn.

If he trades he trades his 1,330 walks for 395 hits and 935 outs, he’s probably in the Hall of Fame. What kind of sense does that make? Only in the mind of some writers is 900 more outs with 400 more hits better than 1,330 walks and 2,605 hits.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
2:29 pm

Wow, anyone heard the new Van Halen song yet? Just listened to it for the first time… awful, terrible, horrible.

alanfalcon

January 17th, 2012
2:29 pm

Whatever happen to the money saved with KK ?

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:31 pm

Acquiring Diaz looks like a mistake right now because he can’t play CF. That’s why they didn’t sign him and that was the right move. Acquiring him back wasn’t.

Ideally they should trade him for salary relief and Braves should sign Wilson Beitemit and Cody Ross, send Jose Constanza back to AAA.

Don in TN

January 17th, 2012
2:32 pm

Talking about sitcom characters, don’t forget Dr. Johnny Fever, Venus Flytrap, Les Nesman, Herb Tarlek, Mr. Carlson, Bailey Quarters, and Jennifer Marlowe, all of WKRP in Cincinnati.
(Sorry if these have already been mentioned)

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
2:32 pm

alanfalcon

“Whatever happen to the money saved with KK ?”

Its In Liberty Media’s Pockets

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:32 pm

Four Arb players will make almost $8 M more in 2012….there’s at least most of your phantom “extra money to spend” on free agents.

I think Heyward, Hanson, Venters and Medlen will make a combined 10 million, at least(Heyward and Hanson – 3.25m each, Venters – 2m, Medlen – 1.5m)…

If Jurrjens, Prado, and EOF stick around + Chipper, we will have something in the 10-12 million range to spend, so yeah, you’re right.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
2:33 pm

I’ve gotta split for a while.

(I Dream of) Jeannie

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
2:35 pm

Don in TN – WKRP had a great collection of characters, as did both Bob Newhart shows.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
2:35 pm

Actually, no they wouldn’t. It’s their own vote. They vote on players today. They don’t have to reconcile with the choices of the voters of the past.

Right. But they have to reconcile their views of past players with their views of current players. And most voters view Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry as a legit Hall of Famers. Yet, that view is inconsistent with the view that Bonds, Bagwell, McGwire, etc. are not. The former group is just as guilty as the latter group when it comes to character and integrity. So unless a writer who wants to keep out the latter group wants to hold the view that the former group also doesn’t belong and that it was a mistake for the writers of the past to let them in, that writer is inconsistent in his views.

It’s not necessarily about consistency in voting. It’s about consistency in the opinions of which players should be in. I’ll be happy to accept the premise that PED users shouldn’t be in, if the same person holding that view also holds the view that Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry, etc. shouldn’t be in.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
2:36 pm

Shaun of the Dumb

DetroitBraves

January 17th, 2012
2:37 pm

Someone in an ESPN chat suggested trading Fredi and Mike Minor for Ozzie Guillen. I thought that sounded pretty good.

If only Frank Wren spent more time on internet chats the Braves would have already won another World Series.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
2:38 pm

raleighbravesfan

Haha, sorry!… ;)

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:39 pm

But they have to reconcile their views of past players with their views of current players.

They don’t even have to do that.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:41 pm

most voters view Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry as a legit Hall of Famers.

There is that sticky little thing called the Hall of Fame, for which those four are in, which makes it hard to argue they are not in the hall of fame. Hence, they are hall of famers.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:43 pm

So unless a writer who wants to keep out the latter group

A writer doesn’t have a choice to revoke membership. Why do you keep going back to this as a valid point, are you really that obtuse?

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
2:43 pm

So I was figuring Braves payroll after the arb signings, and was briefly stumped over why I was only coming up w/ $78-79 mill. Then I remembered: Lowe.

With the $10M Braves are paying him, it brings total to nearly $89 million by my calculations. Which is only a couple million below what is generally accepted as last year’s payroll. And if they count McLouth buyout to this year’s payroll, it’d put it at $90M. But not sure if they’re counting that toward this year or if they amortized it over time they had McLouth, since they knew all along they wouldn’t be picking up that option.

Sure goes quickly, doesn’t it?

Don in TN

January 17th, 2012
2:43 pm

Regarding how much PEDs enhance performance, Jose Canseco said in his book that he probably would not have even made the Major Leagues without them. And he said that they DO improve your hand/eye coordination, as well as sexual performance.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:45 pm

gondeee Talking Chop
The extra yr on Lowe’s contract is looming large right now. Braves wld have additional $10 mil for another player this yr if not for that.

It’s January 17th. Who are these phantom players that we are signing at this point?

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
2:45 pm

TennesseePaul, they have to reconcile their views in the name of consistency if they don’t want to be seen as imbeciles. But clearly some are not very concerned with that.

Remember, this is the same group that keeps Tim Raines out because he walked 1,330 times instead of getting 395 hits and making 935 outs in those plate appearances. Apparently a walk is worth over 3 times less than a hit, according to those who refuse to vote for Tim Raines.

Bill

January 17th, 2012
2:45 pm

Just heard on MLB radio that JJ had signed with Braves..good no arb.

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:46 pm

Don in TN, all I heard is that they shrink testicles, so Canseco must be lying…

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:48 pm

Which is only a couple million below what is generally accepted as last year’s payroll.

Meh. If you add in potential incentives and the new league minimum salary, we’re pretty much between 90-91 million, right where we were at last year.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
2:48 pm

efrim, Who are these phantom players that we are signing at this point?

cody ross of course.

richbrave

January 17th, 2012
2:49 pm

WREN taking care of business.

LOWE gone.
New LF attempted.
SS fixed [fingers crossed]
PRADO signed
EOF signed

BORAS………..ah yes, save the best for last.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:49 pm

DOB, what do you think about the innings incentives that Jurrjens received from the Braves? Concerned about his health?

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
2:49 pm

TennesseePaul, a writer can simply argue and make the point that it was a mistake that Ruth, Cobb, Mantle, Perry and others got in, that they can’t do anything about those mistakes of the past. At that point, they can then consistently argue that PED users should be kept out. But are there any writers out there who would legitimately argue that it was a mistake to let in Ruth and Cobb? Maybe there are, but I don’t know of any off hand. If there are such writers, I think they are consistent in there views. All the rest simply haven’t thought the PED issue through enough and are taking a simple-minded view of the whole issue.

brian

January 17th, 2012
2:49 pm

disagree Murph – I like it. It is a redo of an earlier song that they used to play live – I think around the time of VH II. It is not “new” per se and VH at its peak, but I think it is pretty good. Fits right in with DLR Van Halen. It’s better than Me, Wise, Magic

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:49 pm

if they don’t want to be seen as imbeciles

Payne, the only one looking like an imbecile is the one who keeps suggesting writers remove members of the hall of fame.

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:50 pm

Efrim, somewhere around 89-90 depending on the Diaz figure and assuming 500k as league minimun.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
2:51 pm

shaun this is the same group that keeps Tim Raines out because he walked 1,330 times instead of getting 395 hits and making 935 outs in those plate appearances

are you sure thats why they are keeping him out? or are you just assuming thats their reasoning?

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:52 pm

we’re pretty much between 90-91 million, right where we were at last year.

Which is about $5M below the averaged annual value. And when you add in that payroll bump Wren referred to at the beginning of the off-season you got enough clams to pick up another polished lefty.

keylargo

January 17th, 2012
2:53 pm

That’s sort of the point. If a player like Mantle is in the Hall of Fame, even though he did a lot to affect the integrity of the game by not taking care of his body and getting the most out of his skills every day, players like Bonds should be in.

What you’re not taking into consideration is that back in the 70’s and before was that drinking and getting drunk was a hell of a lot more acceptable than today. Today’s attitude toward alcohol is almost a 180 degree about face.

I don’t remember Mantle getting arrested even once for doing anything illegal while what Barry Bonds did was against the law AND against MLB rules.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
2:53 pm

I think it’s pretty impressive that the Braves are likely to field something like a 90-win team (if things just go reasonably well), with their current payroll. This bodes well for the future, considering the caliber of the Braves’ prospects, particularly their pitching prospects, and the fact that some of the older players will be off the books by the time their prospects and young players are due to peak.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
2:54 pm

Concerned about his health?

About his knee? Sure. Isn’t every team?

If that brace holds up, Jair will be a good pitcher because he is a good pitcher.

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:55 pm

Braves pay on average 3.6 million for player

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:57 pm

somewhere around 89-90 depending on the Diaz figure and assuming 500k as league minimun.

I’d bet the average is more than 500K, even with the league minimum at 480K.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
2:57 pm

while what Barry Bonds did was against the law AND against MLB rules.

Incoming “it wasn’t against the rules when he used steroids”… another twist and turn to make a flawed argument seem more valid to the one typing it.

Tomas

January 17th, 2012
2:57 pm

TennesseePaul, advanced statistics aren’t very good. I really don’t know how Jurrjens manages to have low ERA’s

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
2:58 pm

Which is about $5M below the averaged annual value. And when you add in that payroll bump Wren referred to at the beginning of the off-season you got enough clams to pick up another polished lefty.

Hah! I wonder if the Braves will draft better now that it’s a more level playing field, or if they will continue to go for the safe, cheap players……

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:00 pm

This bodes well for the future, considering the caliber of the Braves’ prospects, particularly their pitching prospects

Need Wren to spin some of that pitching into hitting. And also going to need Heyward and Freeman to hit it big, because there isn’t much in the farm past those three pitching prospects.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
3:01 pm

Shaun – The real flaw in your argument is…Anyone who feels Ruth, Cobb, and Mantle don’t deserve to be in for any reason, is …well…an uninformed moron. (and idiot, as we say on the ole blog).

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
3:01 pm

“what do you think about the innings incentives that Jurrjens received from the Braves?”

Was thinking about this as I was catching up. I might be reading too much into this (as the amounts are relatively small), but for Boras to agree to those escalators might indicate some optimism from JJ and Boras on JJ’s health.

If they are seriously concerned, they want a guaranteed number; they are more likely to go in front of the panel, since no incentives are mandated there. I think JJ believes he can throw 200 this year. I think that’s a great sign. I think it bodes well for the health of his knee, and more importantly, for the health of his shoulder. I hope he’s right.

And, I readily admit this might all be BS ’cause I want my favorite pitcher back.

abwright

January 17th, 2012
3:03 pm

It really feels like things are starting to wind down on the off-season for the Braves. Signing arb eligible players is usually the last bit of drama before the ST Van starts getting packed.

Oh, yeah, and one last dumpster dive for that cruller that maybe is still balanced on the rim and therefore isn’t officially “trash.”

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:03 pm

This has been an interesting winter for Jurrjens, who has spent most of the offseason conditioning in Atlanta. His name has been linked to numerous trade talks, and there is still a slight chance the Braves could deal him to a team that believes he is past the right knee ailment that spoiled last year’s All-Star season. – Mark Bowman

Jim

January 17th, 2012
3:03 pm

I hope everyone is ready to fight the Mets for last place. All of the other teams have gotten better. The Braves just sit on their hands. Pitiful

abwright

January 17th, 2012
3:06 pm

BAS … I think Jurrjens knee issue has been addressed and his shoulder hasn’t been a problem since last year. I’m betting he’s going to be just fine to start the season.

Now, if only he’d been able to use HGH to heal faster after the initial surgery …

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:06 pm

DAP, if Raines had 3,000 hits, with his stolen base total, I firmly believe he would be in.

TennesseePaul, I’m not suggesting writers remove anyone from the Hall. I’m suggesting that if they want to be consistent, they need to argue that it was a mistake to let players like Babe Ruth into the Hall, if they are going to also argue Barry Bonds doesn’t belong.

keylargo, right. But abusing amphetamines was also against the law. And I’m sure there are Hall of Famers who did other illegal things, in addition to not upholding standards of character and integrity. Also, Gaylord Perry doctored baseballs, which was clearly against MLB rules.

So, again, a writer who doesn’t vote for Bonds, in order to be consistent, needs to hold the view that it was a mistake to let in a lot of players that fit into the categories mentioned in the previous paragraph. Obviously they can’t do anything about those players already being in the Hall. But they certainly need to hold the view that it was a mistake to let them in, and it would be helpful for the writer to make it clear that he or she holds this view, in order to avoid sounding like he or she doesn’t have a well thought out position on the Hall of Fame’s character and integrity clause.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
3:07 pm

How is there any logic in the argument that Mantle shouldn’t be in the hall of fame because….wait for it… his already hall of fame worthy numbers should have been better if he had only not drunk too much…HUH…(also forgetting that if he hadn’t messed up his knee, which could be repaired now, he would have also had a better career).

Chop Chop

January 17th, 2012
3:07 pm

It sure would be nice if we could up the payroll by fifteen percent.

haggard

January 17th, 2012
3:08 pm

David O’Brien
Just out of town and checking in. Thanks for the new goods.
Haggard is in concert in Macon tonight.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
3:10 pm

Chop Chop – It would be nice if I could up my income by 15% Heck, if I’m going to wish, let’s say 25%. What’s your point?

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:12 pm

Shaun – The real flaw in your argument is…Anyone who feels Ruth, Cobb, and Mantle don’t deserve to be in for any reason, is …well…an uninformed moron. (and idiot, as we say on the ole blog).

raleighbravefan, I agree. How is that a flaw in my argument? It’s the same with Bonds, Bagwell, McGwire, Clemens, etc. Anyone who thinks they don’t deserve to be in for any reason is well an “uninformed moron” (to use your words). That’s my whole point.

Ruth, Cobb, Mantle and countless others held up the standards of integrity and character about as well as Bonds, Bagwell, McGwire, Clemens and other PED users. You let one group in, you can’t keep the other group out, unless you can’t grasp nuance and take a simple-minded view of all of this. If you think it was a mistake to let one group in, at least you can consistently argue that the PED users also shouldn’t be in. But you can’t have it both ways. That’s my point.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
3:14 pm

“unless you can’t grasp nuance”

This is irony, right? (I know I keep asking.) I really do struggle with irony.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
3:14 pm

Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
PHI has $104m committed to 6 players for 2013, not counting Hamels, whose market value will be in $20-25m a year range as a FA next fall.

Wow…

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:15 pm

Tomas, that’s just about identical to my payroll list, including your total amount. One thing: Kimbrel will make more than usual player with his service time after winning Rookie of the Year. I’d guess around $700,000, though it’s hard to say after the minimum salary was increased for 2012.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:16 pm

raleighbravefan, the argument is that invoking the character and integrity clause for PED users is inconsistent, if you think it was okay to brush aside the character and integrity clause for countless other Hall of Famers who cheated, broke the law and did all sorts of things to violate the standards of character and decency.

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
3:16 pm

Most action we’ve seen all offseason… 2 Arb signings in 1 day!! Hellz yeah!

Chop Chop

January 17th, 2012
3:18 pm

raleighbravefan,

Liberty Media has plenty of cash. They just choose not to spend over a certain amount on the Braves. I don’t care for that. I’m a fan. I want more money spent on the team.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
3:18 pm

even though [Mantle] did a lot to affect the integrity of the game by not taking care of his body and getting the most out of his skills every day

Well, there goes any chance for a fat boy to make the HOF, I guess. And If the determining factor is that one must “get the most out of his skills every day”, they can shutter the doors, send the Vets’ Committee home, and disband the BBWAA. Because nobody, repeat, nobody, will ever hit that bar. Everybody dogs it at some point.. That’s the nature of the 162-beast.

As for the rest of it, have you guys forgotten Shaun’s preferred characterization of HOF voters as “ignorant BBWAA geezers”? He’s unlikely to have any common ground for discussion of the issue. :-)

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:19 pm

DOB, I know you keep saying that chances of signing Bourn long term are not great due to Boras client and money involved. My question, is the payroll ever going to be above 90 million and how are we as fans to take every year we get someone who is only going to last a year maybe 2 at the most and be gone? I mean really, what incentive is there for me to continue to support the team only to see our best players keep leaving and never any money to replace them? We can’t always keep going on the cheap and is there never any money? — Kobie

It’s a mid-market payroll for mid-market revenues including middle-of-the-pack (or slightly below) attendance.

As for keeping players, c’mon. You’ve had Chipper his entire career. You’ll likely have perennial All-Star McCann for a very long time. Heyward, Freeman, Venters, Kimbrel — that’s three who’ve already made All-Star teams, and another (Freeman) who’s a potential star in the making. They aren’t going anywhere anytime soon. Not to mention guys like Beachy, Minor, Teheran, Vizcaino who could be here at least 4-5 more years, and up-and-coming guys like Pastornicky.

It’s not nearly the gloom-and-doom picture you paint, Kobie.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
3:19 pm

If only Shaun’s hair were as dense as his personality… we probably wouldn’t be dealing with him on the blog because he’d have the confidence to leave his mom’s basement every once in a while.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
3:20 pm

shaun if Raines had 3,000 hits, with his stolen base total, I firmly believe he would be in.

but if had hits and Ks instead of walks, his OBP would be way lower, and he wouldnt have been on base as much to steal bases, making his SB numbers go down.

bottom line is he doesnt have 3,000 hits, and as much as you like walks, they still arent as good as getting a hit. youve got to admit, hes at least borderline, which puts him in the same tweener category alot of great players get in. its not as if raines is ricky henderson or something.

i just think you are too hard on people for not voting for raines. personally, i believe murphy should be in…but i understand he is borderline.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
3:20 pm

there is still a slight chance the Braves could deal him to a team that believes he is past the right knee ailment that spoiled last year’s All-Star season. – Mark Bowman

Bowman gets into Duronio’s mescaline stash, it appears.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
3:22 pm

shaun How is that a flaw in my argument? It’s the same with Bonds, Bagwell, McGwire, Clemens, etc.

those guys have inflated numbers because of PEDs. they didnt earn them the same way mantle, ruth, cobb did.

you havent really addressed that point, which ive made twice now.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:23 pm

Bay Area Steve, so where do you draw the line on who should be kept out of the Hall?

PED use? What about amphetamines and doctoring baseballs? What about consorting with gamblers? What about playing under segregation and proudly being a racist? What about drinking too much and playing hung over?

I’m glad some of us are comfortable arguing that PED use is the worst thing to ever happen to baseball and that PED users don’t belong in the Hall while other drug users, cheats and drunks do. As for me, I’m not comfortable saying someone like Barry Bonds’s actions were more reprehensible than Ty Cobb’s racism and his willingness to punch an umpire or Gaylord Perry’s doctoring baseballs.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
3:25 pm

you havent really addressed that point, which ive made twice now.

Yeah, it’s not like Shaun can say he missed it because his hair was in his eyes.

Address the point, Shaun.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:27 pm

It’s not nearly the gloom-and-doom picture you paint, Kobie.

Poor Braves and their 90 million dollar payroll…….right…….

Bowman gets into Duronio’s mescaline stash, it appears.

Hah! Actually, Durunio acknowledged on twitter that Jurrjens could afterall be staying. My thoughts: It’s January 17th, no sh!t, pal.

ncbravesfan90

January 17th, 2012
3:27 pm

Ouch…….

Victor Martinez Likely Out For Season With Torn ACL
By Tim Dierkes [January 17 at 2:24pm CST]
Catcher/designated hitter Victor Martinez suffered a torn ACL in his left knee during his off-season conditioning last week, according to the Tigers. Surgery is anticipated, which the Tigers say would cost Martinez the 2012 season.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
3:28 pm

victor martinez will miss the 2012 seaosn with a torn ACL. big blow for the tigers. they may be making a late move to plug a hole, pretty soon here.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:28 pm

Catcher/designated hitter Victor Martinez suffered a torn ACL in his left knee during his off-season conditioning last week, according to the Tigers.

Wow, that hurts them. The terrible AL Central gets even worse.

bravesfansince1982

January 17th, 2012
3:28 pm

“All of the other teams have gotten better.”

Aside from the Phillies, they HAD to. The Braves were a very good team in 2011. They had one horrible stretch that killed their season.

If this team stays healthy, they will not only be in position to make the postseason in 2012 … they will be able to make a deep run.

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
3:32 pm

Shaun – The logic of not voting in the PED abusers is not based on “character and integrity” of the individuals. Plenty of guys with bad character. It is based on the fact that they have artificial credentials (enhanced stats, if you will) due to the use of the PEDs. Mantle and Ruth hardly have enhanced stats due to abusing their bodies. Drinking or eating too much theoretically reduced their effectiveness, so they should be in even easier. Does McGuire have HOF worthy stats without the PEDs?…We can’t know for sure, but I find it doubtful. As my cousin Vinnie would say, your argument “doesn’t hold water”.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
3:34 pm

shaun if Raines had 3,000 hits, with his stolen base total, I firmly believe he would be in.

i wantd to add, it looks like this is your belief, not based on anything any voters have actually said about tim raines. is that right?

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:34 pm

Nationals don’t get Fielder, than they have a lot of work to do. Stras is at 160 IP limit and they still have serious holes in CF and at SS. I do think they will be after Bourn next year, as will many teams in need of a CF.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
3:35 pm

My thoughts: It’s January 17th, no sh!t, pal.

Yeah, LOL. Still, Ben and Bowman seem to have been on some trade-Jurrjens jihad this offseason. My perception, anyway. I mean, Duronio sounded as if his dog died when speaking of the fact that Jurrjens might be (”Oh, no!”) kept.

BlakefromAR

January 17th, 2012
3:37 pm

DOB, what is your belief the starting rotation would look like if the Braves started the Season today? Hudson, Hanson, JJ, Beachy, and ?

nolie

January 17th, 2012
3:37 pm

John Smoltz should be a first ballot HOF to win over 150 and to save 150 is a big deal and he did both well. I still think he will be on the first ballot…Braves29

I don’t think he will and I don’t think he should

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:37 pm

DAP, no one is arguing that walks are as good as hits. But Raines’s hits plus walks, plus everything else he did well, more than make up for any deficiencies in his total number of hits or how many times he got a hit.

Raines wasn’t Henderson so he shouldn’t be in? So Henderson is the standard? Since when? If Rickey Henderson, one of the upper-echelon Hall of Famers, is the standard for the Hall, lots of quality candidates are flawed. But players as great as Henderson are not the standard and never have been. The standard is not that high.

DAP, Bonds, Bagwell, McGwire, Clemens all were so above and beyond the standards for the Hall. You can’t say, at least with any certainty, that PED’s were the reasons they reached Hall of Fame standards. In fact, it’s sort of outrageous to suggest someone like Bonds wasn’t a Hall of Fame caliber player without PED’s. If Bonds were borderline, you’d have a decent argument that PED’s pushed him over the edge. But Bonds put up numbers that no one put up. He earned those numbers, even if PED’s pushed his numbers further than they would have otherwise been. He still earned some sort of large portion of what he did.

So once we established that Bonds, Clemens and those others would have been Hall of Famers without PED’s, it moves to character and integrity. And that’s where the argument falls apart further because those players’ character and integrity is certainly no worse than the character and integrity of players like Cobb or Ruth and lots of others.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:37 pm

I mean, Duronio sounded as if his dog died when speaking of the fact that Jurrjens might be (”Oh, no!”) kept.

He believes Kris Medlen would be a better candidate for the starting rotation than Jair Jurrjens. I have read these words from him. And I do not believe he thinks that there would be much of a drop off, if any, with Julio Teheran or Randall Delgado taking a rotation spot in place of Jair.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:38 pm

raleighbravefan: I concur wholeheartedly with your 3:32 p.m. comment re: PEDs vs. hangovers.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:39 pm

Hudson, Hanson, JJ, Beachy, and ?

It has to be Mike Minor, unless he is traded. He’s turning 25 this year and has very little to learn in Gwinnett. There is a reason he was so “polished” coming out of the SEC. Get here fast, and produce at a mid-rotation starter(or a bit less) level.

Down. With. Polish.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:40 pm

DAP: I also agree with your 3:22 p.m. point on similar subject (I’m working my way down comments list)

Murph

January 17th, 2012
3:41 pm

Send Ross, Diaz, plus a few mid-level prospects to Tigers for Peralta.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:42 pm

JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Frank Wren told us @Mlbnetworkradio that they hope Tim Hudson will be ready by opening day after back surgery but there is a chance he’s not

JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Wren feels if healthy Braves rotation should look like: Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy and Minor w/ Teheran & Delgado at AAA for depth

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
3:43 pm

What about amphetamines and doctoring baseballs?

I am a proud former scuffer. Hitters are the enemy. You use every weapon at your disposal.

What about consorting with gamblers?

I am a proud former bettor. Some of my best friends were bookies, and they turned out to not be actual spawn of the devil.

What about drinking too much and playing hung over?

I am a proud former tippler. This is no different than playing through any other tweak, ding, or nick. If you can’t play hurt, turn in your leotard.

JTH

January 17th, 2012
3:43 pm

Murphy not being in the Hall of Fame is more of a reflection of just how ignorant these so called experts are than of Dale himself. The “Steroid Era” and the fawning over the cheaters by these same writers at that time proves it.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:44 pm

Haggard, are you going to see Hag tonight? I wish I’d known about that show before now, would’ve planned on going.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:44 pm

keithlaw keithlaw
The Braves still suck.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm

In fact, it’s sort of outrageous to suggest someone like Bonds wasn’t a Hall of Fame caliber player without PED’s.

Some bad choices go on to haunt people for the rest of their lives, no matter how great a person they were before making that bad choice.

That’s life.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm

Whoa…. How did that Keith Law tweet get in there? Man, he just hates our Braves………

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm

I could care less about integrity… Pete Rose belongs in the HOF!!! I care more about using PED’s McGwire, Palmeiro, Clemons, ect… do not belong in the HOF IMO!!

Hillbilly

January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm

And I do not believe he thinks that there would be much of a drop off, if any, with Julio Teheran or Randall Delgado taking a rotation spot in place of Jair.

Is it because of his “peripherals” and advanced statistics, because I keep reading that this is a reason he’s not a very good pitcher?…despite what I’ve seen with my own eyes.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
3:46 pm

It was Vincent , not Selig, who was such a devoted advocate of Giamatti . he was not an “owner” guy and was replaced rather quickly by Bud

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:48 pm

Shaun, just think if you were a BBWAA member with 10 or more years service, you could have voted and been the 24th vote for Juan Gonzalez out of more than 500 ballots cast this year. It wouldn’t have been enough to give him the 5 percent required to remain on the ballot, but at least you could have written a soliloquy about why you voted for him and more people might have read it and cared enough to shred your argument.

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
3:48 pm

Some bad choices go on to haunt people for the rest of their lives, no matter how great a person they were before making that bad choice.

That’s the answer!!! Anyone who was caught or is suspected of using PED’s can NOT be allowed into the HOF until that person is DEAD. That’s sounds like a fair solution… good job Murph!!!!

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
3:48 pm

Is it because of his “peripherals” and advanced statistics, because I keep reading that this is a reason he’s not a very good pitcher?…

Yes, even though Jurrjens continues to out perform his peripherals, as does Matt Cain.

Some guys just get outs and don’t give up runs. I know, it’s crazy. Ball in play, chance, yada yada yada. Jurrjens and Cain, always outperforming their peripherals.

(Note: I do not believe Jair Jurrjens is as good or better than Matt Cain. However, Cain is comparable because he also consistently outperforms his peripherals).

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
3:49 pm

Samantha Stephens

Murph

January 17th, 2012
3:49 pm

JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Wren feels if healthy Braves rotation should look like: Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy and Minor w/ Teheran & Delgado at AAA for depth

I’d rather see Delgado start the season in the rotation than Minor… every game counts, as we saw this last season, and I think Delgado gives the team a better chance to win out of the gate.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
3:50 pm

shaun Raines wasn’t Henderson so he shouldn’t be in? So Henderson is the standard?

no, you missed my point. probably my fault.

im saying raines wasnt henderson, so its not like a slam dunk HOF case. im trying to say that raines is a borderline case, with at least understandable flaws that are keeping him out. know what i mean?

You can’t say, at least with any certainty, that PED’s were the reasons they reached Hall of Fame standards.

you cant say they werent. thats where it gets muddy. what numbers were steriod induced and which werent? i dont think we can be completly sure.

So once we established that Bonds, Clemens and those others would have been Hall of Famers without PED’s

we cant agree on that, which at the least keeps the waters muddy. im not saying there is a right or wrong answer, on this or the raines HOF question. be these are things that are at the very least difficult questions to answer, which makes me understand and sympathize with both sides. dont you agree that these things arent very clear cut?

nolie

January 17th, 2012
3:52 pm

There is a sign in every clubhouse in America telling every player that gambling is prohibited , it is regularly emphasized to players.
Rose thought he was too big to get disciplined, typical of his character

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
3:52 pm

I highly doubt people will forgive Bonds for trying to kill Aaron, Shaun.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:52 pm

DAP, it’s my belief based on the fact that Palmeiro is the only eligible player with 3,000 hits not in the Hall. Anyone with over 2,870 hits is in the Hall, except for Palmeiro, Jeter, Bonds and Biggio.

Yet someone with 3,977 times on base, 808 steals and one of the best stolen base rates of all time is not in. It’s not just that voters are discounting walks. It’s that they are almost taking a stand against them, like they don’t matter at all. Even if you think hits are better than walks (something pretty much everyone admits), did Raines’s 1,330 walks not make up for 395 hits that he needed to reach the arbitrary 3,000-hit standard for induction? How much does one have to discount walks to think that 1,330 walks is worse than 395 hits?

nolie

January 17th, 2012
3:54 pm

my understanding is that Pete bet as a player too

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
3:54 pm

DAP, the burden of proof should be on those who think Bonds and Clemens are not Hall of Famers without PED’s. There performances, as evident by the numbers, was so overwhelmingly great that it would be outrageous to claim that those players weren’t Hall of Famers without PED’s.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
3:55 pm

That’s the answer!!! Anyone who was caught or is suspected of using PED’s can NOT be allowed into the HOF until that person is DEAD. That’s sounds like a fair solution… good job Murph!!!!

Given that most of those guys will probably die sooner than later I’d add 100 years for every one year of PED use before they are eligible for induction.

So, if Bonds dies in 10 years, which wouldn’t shock me, then he would not be eligible for HOF induction until the year 2822.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
3:58 pm

Wren told @Mlbnetworkradio that they hope Tim Hudson will be ready by opening day after back surgery but there’s a chance he’s not. Another reason to keep Jurrjens, along with his lowered value due to late-season knee injury.

Unless Jurrjens impresses in spring and a team has an injury and is in desperation mode, gonna be tough for the Braves to get a deal that justifies trading him when they have other questions marks in young rotation. Better scenario would be for Jurrjens to have another fast start and deal him in June or July, if you’re gonna trade him.

RC

January 17th, 2012
3:59 pm

That’s the answer!!! Anyone who was caught or is suspected of using PED’s can NOT be allowed into the HOF until that person is DEAD. That’s sounds like a fair solution… good job Murph!!!!

The problem you are going to have is with guys committing suicide to get into the Hall sooner. We can’t have the Hall entry rates skewed by guys committing sepeku just to get themselves a plaque sooner. There’s a legacy to consider.

Mike S

January 17th, 2012
3:59 pm

Hahaha, scoots @ 3:43. Good stuff brother.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
4:01 pm

From Wall Street Journal baseball writer Brian Costa on Twitter: After today’s signings, Mets projected to start 2012 with a payroll somewhere in the range of $90 million, down from $143 million in 2011.

In other words, same as Braves payroll.

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
4:03 pm

Given that most of those guys will probably die sooner than later I’d add 100 years for every one year of PED use before they are eligible for induction.

Write up the plan and send it to Bud!! I like it!!

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
4:03 pm

CraZy – Gambling on the game is the death penalty for a reason…It’s not about the “integrity” of Pete Rose…It’s about the integrity of the game. It is like an NBA ref accepting bribes, or college players shaving points…both of which resulted in the death penalty for those involved, including some criminal prosecutions. The sport cannot exhist if fans don’t trust the game to be true…if they believe players, coaches/managers, refs/umps have reason (especially financial) to throw a game. That’s what Pete Rose is all about…I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.
Only possible argunment in favor of Rose is that there is no proof he gambled on baseball as a player…I believe it is likely that he did.

Venice Jim

January 17th, 2012
4:04 pm

Brian Costa
After today’s signings, Mets projected to start 2012 with a payroll somewhere in the range of $90 million, down from $143 million in 2011.

Seems like the Braves’ roster might be just a tad better than the Mets for the same amount…

Murph

January 17th, 2012
4:04 pm

Mets projected to start 2012 with a payroll somewhere in the range of $90 million, down from $143 million in 2011.

In other words, same as Braves payroll.

Even the most pessimistic fan has to believe that the Braves will finish ahead of the Mutts.

Way to get the most for your money Wren!

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
4:05 pm

nolie – If he bet as a player…well, case closed.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
4:06 pm

raleighbravefan, if keeping PED users out is not based on integrity and character, what is the reasoning? Some of the PED users clearly meet Hall of Fame standards to such a large degree, that it is ridiculous to assume they wouldn’t have been Hall of Famers without PED’s.

Bonds had 494 homers through the 2000 season. The voters will likely keep him out for a while. And what will be the reasoning? Is it that his numbers were inflated because of PED’s? They almost certainly were not given that his numbers were so overwhelming, it’s unlikely PED’s made the difference. The only rationale is integrity and character, which is flawed given that I don’t know of anyone who thinks that many other guys who lacked integrity and character were mistakenly inducted.

So inflated numbers is a flawed line of reasoning for keeping those guys out. Character and integrity is a flawed line of reasoning for keeping those guys out. Where else do you go?

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:06 pm

shaun it’s my belief based on the fact that Palmeiro is the only eligible player with 3,000 hits not in the Hall

ok, gotcha. so you dont know of any writer with a vote that says raines isnt in because he doesnt have 3,000 hits. nor do any of them say that if 300 or so of his walks were hits instead he would be in. you just think that because it makes sense to you, and you now state it as fact. i understand, thanks.

It’s that they are almost taking a stand against them, like they don’t matter at all

just to make sure, you dont know of any HOF voter that has actually taken a stand against walks, right? no one has actually said they are making an example of tim raines by not letting him into the hall, because walks suck, and they are taking a stand. thats just one of those things you have decided on your own and now state as fact, right? i just want to be sure.

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
4:07 pm

same as Braves payroll.

and so much different!!

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
4:07 pm

What do you think the “year off to try baseball” was really all about with Michael Jordan? NBA didn’t have the guts (or desire) to publicly punish or embarass Jordan concerning his gambling…and I don’t believe he ever gambled on basketball.

Venice Jim

January 17th, 2012
4:08 pm

DOB beat me on that while I was typing…well-played…

RC

January 17th, 2012
4:09 pm

What do you think the “year off to try baseball” was really all about with Michael Jordan?

I’ve got no insight into the reasons that Jordan did that, but one thing that tends to get really overlooked.

Considering age and experience, Jordan was pretty damn good in AA.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
4:11 pm

Considering age and experience, Jordan was pretty damn good in AA.

Almost…polished…one could say. :-)

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
4:12 pm

Shaun – That argument holds some water Re Bonds…not necessarily for the others…As I said, would McGuire be in without the PEDs? I believe probably not. Impossible to know how much their game was enhanced and for how long. Has NO relation to the situations you cited Re Ruth and Mantle.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:12 pm

shaun There performances, as evident by the numbers, was so overwhelmingly great that it would be outrageous to claim that those players weren’t Hall of Famers without PED’s.

but they did use PEDs…its actually something thats impossible to know, right? what would they have done without PEDs? no one knows, but it bring EVERYTHING they did into question. and i think legitimately so.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:13 pm

ralieghbravefan It’s not about the “integrity” of Pete Rose…It’s about the integrity of the game

that is a fantastic distinction. thank you for that.

brian

January 17th, 2012
4:13 pm

Braves are in much better long term shape than the Phillies with the overwhelming payroll dedicated to 6 players. I hope the Braves take note and continue to invest in the draft and development of their young players.

With all the top young players hitting the majors it made sense to draft low ceiling, high floor players who could be ready quickly to help with the next 3-5 years. It is time, though to go back to taking the best player and trying to develop these players. If the Braves keep taking 19/20 from college from their typical draft position, they are going to stay mediocre.

TennesseePaul

January 17th, 2012
4:13 pm

In other words, same as Braves payroll.

I complain about the Braves payroll, but really when you have the Mets staring down a lost season before the gates even open, spending the same amount, you must be thankful that while crimped the Braves payroll is, it is much better managed and allocated.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
4:14 pm

Is it that [Bonds'] numbers were inflated because of PED’s? They almost certainly were not given that his numbers were so overwhelming, it’s unlikely PED’s made the difference.

Wait. Is it your contention, then, that PEDs did not significantly impact Barry Bonds’ baseball performance?

raleighbravefan

January 17th, 2012
4:14 pm

DAP – Thanks…I have my moments.

Lew

January 17th, 2012
4:16 pm

The primary effect of the juicing that bothers me the most re: the HOF is that it skews the numbers of those who played before them – players like Murphy, Rice and Dawson (though JIm and Andre made it in and Murph likely won’t). It makes them look weak offensively when compared to an entire generation of players.

rayk

January 17th, 2012
4:17 pm

now that Jurgens salary is official, time to get rid of him. for $5.5 mill, he’s affordable for some teams who need starters. he’s leaving at first chance so he has to be dealt.
since Seth Smith is off the board, maybe Wren can make some productive phone calls (for a change).
I agree with prior posts-3rd place is likely standing. if Nats sign Fielder, then 4th.
a right handed bat is still needed.
maybe they’ll carry 15 pitchers on the 25 man roster ? why stop at 12 or 13 ? why wait until 9/1 ?

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:17 pm

shaun So inflated numbers is a flawed line of reasoning for keeping those guys out.

no, its really not. its weird to me that you put that to bed like its settled. no one i have seen yet has agreed with you on this point.

JoeFan

January 17th, 2012
4:17 pm

ESPN is reporting that Braves have reached 1 year deals with both Bourn and JJ. So all Braves are signed and sealed for 2012.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
4:18 pm

Duronio sounded as if his dog died when speaking of the fact that Jurrjens might be (”Oh, no!”) kept…scoots

cause he is a stats guy, right? and JJ’s periphrasis scare statty folks

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
4:19 pm

raleighbravefan .. I get why Rose is not in the Hall and agree that you can’t make it appear that the league is suddenly ok with what Rose did… I think and hope his numbers are all real and not inflated by gambling if anything I would think someone gambling on themselves would take a dive not pay someone else to take a dive. People that were on PED’s clearly have skewed numbers. How much we don’t know, but we do know the numbers are not real and to me they should never be allowed into the HOF.

RC

January 17th, 2012
4:19 pm

ESPN is reporting that Braves have reached 1 year deals with both Bourn and JJ. So all Braves are signed and sealed for 2012.

Yep, DOB filled us in a few hours ago…

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
4:20 pm

DOB, when did I argue that Juan Gonzalez is a Hall of Famer?

If there is reason to believe that PED’s may have pushed a borderline guy into Hall of Famer status, I understand the PED’s-inflated-numbers argument. I don’t understand it with the guys that put up numbers that are so overwhelmingly great that it’s almost ridiculous to argue that PED’s attributed to those guys being Hall of Fame caliber versus not being so.

Voters should consider PED’s affect on stats, just like they should consider ballparks, league environment, etc. But it’s ridiculous to assume PED’s pushed Bonds’s numbers into Hall of Fame territory. He was very likely a Hall of Famer without PED’s.

So if you want to keep him out, you have to argue that it’s about character and integrity. And that’s a rather easy argument to tear down because the Hall of Fame has never considered character and integrity, and no one thinks it was a big mistake to let in Ruth or Cobb or Gaylord Perry for a lack of character and integrity.

Juan Gonzalez is completely different. He’s a borderline case. So if one thinks his numbers were good enough, one could argue that it is because of PED’s. Bonds and Clemens clearly are not close to borderline, so it’s not reasonable to argue that PED’s pushed them into the Hall of Fame. They were already there. PED’s likely made them look like possibly the greatest hitter and pitcher ever. But they were already Hall of Famers.

Oh, even if you completely ignore PED’s, Juan Gonzalez still probably falls short.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
4:20 pm

Character and integrity are subjective. While I do not believe that a player drinking a 6 pack after a game and coming to the ballpark with a headache the next day constitutes poor character or integrity, a person who was raised in a strict Amish household would likely disagree.

The flaw in your argument, Shaun, is that the standards of character and integrity change based on the time in which they are called into question, the person who is calling them into question, and the audience.

You might find a sympathetic ear as you discuss these issues with your mom as you drive to church on Sundays, but you are not as likely to get as validating of a response when speaking to others who were raised with different values or in a different time than you.

That and you’re just stupid.

Lew

January 17th, 2012
4:21 pm

Why would Jurrjens’ salary being made definite make him more appealing to other teams now, when he made almost exactly what everyone thought he would?

nolie

January 17th, 2012
4:21 pm

shouldn’t be any surprise that JJ’s contract contains incentive clauses.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
4:21 pm

I think the Braves will likely re-sign Moylan, now that they know exactly how much money they have left to spend and now that he’s begun his throwing program. That could happen soon.

Lew

January 17th, 2012
4:24 pm

Bullpen’s gonna be loaded this year – as deep as any pen I’ve ever seen.

Ward

January 17th, 2012
4:24 pm

Hell everyone! You break the Rules……..You pay the price……..No HOF for players who break the rules. Even though I think Joe Jackson should be in the HOF. It Is what It Is…….Talk later tonight,and peace…….

Murph

January 17th, 2012
4:25 pm

Ward forgot his “o” again.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
4:26 pm

He was very likely a Hall of Famer without PED’s.

You’re not a thief until you rob the bank, either.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
4:26 pm

@Random: takes one to know one:)

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
4:27 pm

Wait. Is it your contention, then, that PEDs did not significantly impact Barry Bonds’ baseball performance?

ncscoots, depends on what you mean by significant. I think even if we are conservative, we would say Bonds would have likely hit over 500 homers, posted an OBP at least close to .400, posted a slugging over .500 and would have been a highly regarded defensive player for at least close to 20 years. Those are not necessarily Babe Ruth type, upper-echelon Hall of Fame numbers but those would have gotten him in.

It is my contention that PED’s didn’t transform him from a really good player to a Hall of Famer. It is my contention that PED’s possibly transformed his numbers from those of a Mike Schmidt, Lou Gehrig, Joe Morgan type Hall of Famer to those of a Ruth, Mays type Hall of Famer.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
4:28 pm

The primary effect of the juicing that bothers me the most re: the HOF is that it skews the numbers of those who played before them – players like Murphy, Rice and Dawson …Lew

and juiced balls, lower mounds, smaller stadiums. DHs etc etc doesn’t?

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
4:28 pm

I’m getting really tired of Shaun impugning Babe Ruth’s character.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
4:29 pm

cause he is a stats guy, right? and JJ’s periphrasis scare statty folks

That, and the fact that he’s at the two-years-of-club-control marker. Some of these guys seem to think that keeping such a guy when you can trade him for prospects who are four or five years out…well, that’s worse than taking PEDs. :-) Heaven forbid that you could actually use the performance of such a player instead of trading him.

RC

January 17th, 2012
4:29 pm

Bullpen’s gonna be loaded this year – as deep as any pen I’ve ever seen.

Let’s just be sure that Fredi is aware of that fact. I don’t want to look at the apperances leaders midseason and see Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty all in the top 10 again.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:29 pm

“shouldn’t be any surprise that JJ’s contract contains incentive clauses”

Surprise? No. Can we read anything into the fact that it does? That’s what I’d like to know. If Boras/JJ are significantly concerned with his health, doesn’t that make them more likely to negotiate a contract without incentives, or to go in front of the panel, where incentives are not used?

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
4:32 pm

Yay for the Falcons hiring Mike Nolan as DC.

RC

January 17th, 2012
4:33 pm

Surprise? No. Can we read anything into the fact that it does? That’s what I’d like to know. If Boras/JJ are significantly concerned with his health, doesn’t that make them more likely to negotiate a contract without incentives, or to go in front of the panel, where incentives are not used?

Don’t think JJ and Boras had a lot of leverage in this situation. While incentives are not used, you can bet that JJ’s innings totals over the past few years would be used against him before the panel. It probably speaks more to the Braves concerns than anything. Based on the relative size of the incentives, however, I wouldn’t put a ton of thought into them at all.

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
4:33 pm

Some of the PED users clearly meet Hall of Fame standards to such a large degree, that it is ridiculous to assume they wouldn’t have been Hall of Famers without PED’s

We don’t know how much any player’s numbers were skewed by PED’s and that’s exactly why no one that took PED’s should be allowed into the HOF.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
4:33 pm

I think you are thinking too hard on it BAS. many if not most players with injury injuries have those contracts. I think it would have said more if they weren’t there

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
4:35 pm

Let’s just be sure that Fredi is aware of that fact. I don’t want to look at the apperances leaders midseason and see Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty all in the top 10 again.

I’d be less thrilled with 10 blown saves by Medlen/Varvaro/Martinez. You use who you got, when you gotta.

It’s up to the offense and the starters to give Fredo some options, and up to the middle relief to perform well enough that Fredo isn’t afraid to call their number.

CrαZy

January 17th, 2012
4:36 pm

I think even if we are conservative, we would say Bonds would have likely hit over 500 homers, posted an OBP at least close to .400, posted a slugging over .500 and would have been a highly regarded defensive player for at least close to 20 years

Yeah you could say that, but you wouldn’t be factually true because you don’t know!!!!
What if PED’s kept Bonds from going threw Griffey like injuries or worse?? Again we don’t know and that’s why he should be banned!!

Venice Jim

January 17th, 2012
4:37 pm

nolie – thanks for pointing out Smash last night, but I have been awaiting it for quite a while now…

RC

January 17th, 2012
4:38 pm

What if PED’s kept Bonds from going threw Griffey like injuries or worse?? Again we don’t know and that’s why he should be banned!!

Thoughts on players who took amphetamines?

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:38 pm

I just don’t see how folks get so worked up for the HOF. I read all Posnanski now, and he writes about it a fair amount, so I follow it some. Maybe with the Braves getting in here soon, I’ll care more. Maybe, if I’d been, or when I go…

But, as it stands, the Hall has let in some ridiculous choices. They’ve left out some that are nearly as egregious. Some writers didn’t vote for Babe Frickin’ Ruth. Some of the MVP votes, from the same writers, have been laughable. Now, you have this odd policy where some team’s writers can vote while the next’s cannot.

The Hall is flawed; it will always be flawed. Who cares?

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
4:39 pm

Wren on Moylan: “We’ve had conversations with Peter’s representative; we’d love to have him back.”

(To me, sure sounds as if that’s going to happen.)

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:40 pm

“Yay for the Falcons hiring Mike Nolan as DC”

cab, you want to take this one?

noles, fair enough. I think I just want my guy back.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:40 pm

shaun . I think even if we are conservative, we would say Bonds would have likely hit over 500 homers, posted an OBP at least close to .400, posted a slugging over .500 and would have been a highly regarded defensive player for at least close to 20 years.

or, we could say that nagging injuries would have caught up to him, and he would play fewer and fewer games, eventually retiring shortly after his 3rd MVP trophy. he would have finished with good rate stats, but not good enough numbers for a long enough period of time to be a HOF player. sucks for him, because he was on a HOF trajectory, perhaps. those leg injuries are doozies.

you dont know what would have happened. you dont even know when he started juicing. you are pushing your fiction as fact again.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
4:41 pm

but they did use PEDs…its actually something thats impossible to know, right? what would they have done without PEDs? no one knows, but it bring EVERYTHING they did into question. and i think legitimately so.

Why does it bring everything they did into question? Sure, we don’t know where to draw the line. We don’t know how much to discount a player’s numbers because of PED use. Sure, I’m fine with discounting them, but by how much? Do we discount Bonds’s entire career? Why? It’s pretty clear that he was a Hall of Fame caliber player regardless. You half his homerun total and he’s still at 381. You stop his career after 1994 and he’s still a .394 OBP and .537 slugging.

So, no, I don’t think it’s legitimate to discount his whole career because of PED’s. Sure, it legit to discount something. But he was so overwhelmingly great, you have to pretty much discount to a ridiculous degree.

This is the whole Juan Gonzalez point. If one actually thinks he put up Hall of Fame numbers (I’m not so sure he did, even with PED’s), he’s nothing more than a borderline candidate. In cases like this, I think it’s legit to knock him down a few pegs and out of the Hall discussion. You knock Bonds down a few pegs and he’s somewhere in the Joe Morgan area instead of the Babe Ruth area.

So basically the PED’s as an inflater of numbers argument fails with guys like Bonds and Clemens. You have to move the argument to character and integrity and cheating. And this argument fails unless you also think it was a mistake to let in Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Gaylord Perry, etc. And I’m not sure there is anyone who thinks that it was a mistake for someone like Cobb to be voted in while also holding the view that Cobb was any better a person than Barry Bonds.

RC

January 17th, 2012
4:41 pm

BAS, you just summed up my thoughts entirely. Let them have their little club; it has no bearing on my personal view and opinion of a player.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:41 pm

RC, makes sense. Thank you.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
4:42 pm

If they get Moylan that pretty much ends all talk of Cody Ross or anyone else, right? No more room in the budget after that.

Jimmy

January 17th, 2012
4:42 pm

Wow. Some bad news out there today:

Crawford out after wrist surgery.
Victor Martinez may miss the ‘12 season.
Huddy might not be ready for the season.
Shaun is back with his 250 word posts.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:42 pm

For the 4:33, I meant. But, how ’bout for both…

Jimmy

January 17th, 2012
4:44 pm

Murph – not unless a trade happens. Also, I read that the Red Sox might have a interest in Ross..after the Crawford news.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
4:45 pm

BAS-

Nolan is actually a very good DC. He’s just a very crappy head coach.

ncscoots

January 17th, 2012
4:45 pm

Wow. Some bad news out there today:

…overcome by the good news, though. Justified returns tonight, with new bad guys.

I always predict the success of the season by the premiere’s body count. Hasn’t failed yet. :-)

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:46 pm

shaun So basically the PED’s as an inflater of numbers argument fails with guys like Bonds and Clemens

nope, it doesnt.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
4:46 pm

not sure what is wrong with 250 word posts, content being much more important than size IMO

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:48 pm

“you dont even know when he started juicing”

I think this is an important point that is often overlooked. Guys can juice, and not get much bigger. It’s still a calorie-in, calorie-out thing, along with the training program. Maybe he found more advanced training methods after a plateau. Maybe more protein, and more food overall. Maybe a newer, more effective steroid started after using for years. We don’t know. It’s all guesses, other than he used. Like I said, who cares?

Decide if he belongs in Your Hall of Fame. That’s the only one that should matter anyway. The real one is kind of a sham…

Send Boomer to retirement home

January 17th, 2012
4:48 pm

ESPN finally found something else to market as news besides Yankees and RedSox 24 hours a day…..It’s also the Tim Tebow network

ISH

January 17th, 2012
4:48 pm

Concerning Bonds.. I could care less really as long as the voters are consistent. If Bonds And Big Mac don’t get in, then A-Rod shouldn’t either.. Only reason I say that is because it’s obvious that A-Rod, even though we know he’s a juicer.. never gets brought up as much as the others (because he’s a Yankee no doubt)..

Jimmy

January 17th, 2012
4:49 pm

Nolie – the 250 words are mostly repeats from previous post.

DAP

January 17th, 2012
4:51 pm

ISH it’s obvious that A-Rod, even though we know he’s a juicer.. never gets brought up as much as the others (because he’s a Yankee no doubt)..

nah, i think its probably because he is nowhere close to being eligible for the HOF, while the other guys are. I believe its 5 years after you retire, and a-rod is under contract for like 5 or 6 more years isnt he? so 10 years from now this discussion will likely include a-rod.

Jbailz

January 17th, 2012
4:51 pm

Everyone needs to realize that our W/L per month went like this: April 14-15, May 17-11, June 17-9, July 16-11, August 17-9, September 9-18. So we only had 2 months under .500, if we play September at .500 we are in the playoffs. This team is a GOOD team and we don’t have many spots that are weak. The issues a lot of you are having other teams would kill to consider their “worst spots”.

Everyone needs to relax and realize even with making the small tweaks we’ve made we are a good team that will win 90+ games this year and make the playoffs.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
4:51 pm

“Nolan is actually a very good DC”

True. But, that “very crappy head coach” part ruined him for me. I suppose I can still root for the Falcons, because of the folks here, but I will always despise that guy. He was in Miami, right? And, they finished strong. Surprised they’d let him leave; couldn’t have been much more money…

Murph

January 17th, 2012
4:52 pm

Wow. Some bad news out there today:

Crawford out after wrist surgery.
Victor Martinez may miss the ‘12 season.
Huddy might not be ready for the season.
Shaun is back with his 250 word posts.

Yup, bad news all around.

I figured Shaun’s recovery time from his hair transplants would have been at least a month or two longer. Amazing what doctors can do these days. The fact that they can take monkey pubes and make them grow on a human head… I mean, wow!

nolie

January 17th, 2012
4:54 pm

the 250 words are mostly repeats from previous post….Jimmy

true, but that is a different point ;)

Jimmy

January 17th, 2012
4:54 pm

I don’t see Darvish being this big impact pitcher like he is being painted.
I know what he’s done in Japan, but come on, this is the Big Show.
I mean, name one pitcher from Japan that wasn’t a one-hit-wonder.
And in Texas?? He’ll start melting in June.

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
4:54 pm

BAS & cab – after the major letdown on the Falcons OC hiring, I’m ecstatic about the Nolan hire at DC. I’ll reserve judgement on the Mr. Dirk from Jacksonville until I see the offense in action next season though.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
4:55 pm

I think Japan gets hot in the summer, too. At least, it looked kinda hot in Karate Kid II.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
4:56 pm

BAS-

Yeah, all I can really think about with him is how terrible he was with the Niners. As for Miami, they don’t have a head coach yet- if Fisher had gone there, you can bet Nolan would have stayed (or if they had already hired someone good- not that I think they shouldn’t take their time, but there was a certain amount of unknown – enough for Nolan to look elsewhere)

Jbailz

January 17th, 2012
4:56 pm

Ellsbury signs a one year 8 mill dollar deal. So if he’s a free agent next year can we make a play for him and waive bye bye to Bourne? I’d rather have Jacoby myself…

Hillbilly

January 17th, 2012
4:56 pm

…overcome by the good news, though. Justified returns tonight, with new bad guys.

A-flippin’-men. Boyd.Damn.Crowder.

Couch Tater

January 17th, 2012
4:57 pm

Who cares?

MLB and the HOF probably like the arguments. It keeps baseball as a topic of discussion, rather than Tim Tebow’s release point.

ISH

January 17th, 2012
4:57 pm

DAP.. Time will tell I guess.. I still want consistency.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
4:58 pm

Sophee-

Like BAS (and I) said- Nolan can coach defenses very well. But for a Niner fan, he is just the guy that was dreadful as our head coach. Every time I see his name, I can’t help thinking “why on earth does that team want HIM?” and then I remember that as a coordinator, he is a very good hire :)

Jimmy

January 17th, 2012
5:00 pm

Nolan as DC for the Falcons. He has grit.

Jbailz

January 17th, 2012
5:02 pm

Nolan is like Wade Phillips, great DC’s but terrible coaches. As a Niners fan, I can’t wait to see how good Alex Smith and the Niners will be for the next 4-5 years with a good coach that believes in them. I’m thinking the Niner nation is making a comeback!!!

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
5:04 pm

Do the Falcons have the personel for a 3-4 defense? Because that’s what Nolan is going to turn them into. A hybrid 3-4/4-3, at the very least. John Abraham certainly doesn’t seem like he can transition at this point of his career and didn’t they sign Ray Edwards last offseason – a 4-3 defensive end? Bizarre hire, imo.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
5:04 pm

I lost Maria Bello, The Firm started soft, House and Fringe sound like they’re being chopped. I don’t get any premium channels, where it sounds like all the good stuff is nowadays…

“Boyd.Damn.Crowder.” better bring it, is what I’m sayin’.

ColoradoBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
5:05 pm

From Shaun….As for me, I’m not comfortable saying someone like Barry Bonds’s actions were more reprehensible than Ty Cobb’s racism and his willingness to punch an umpire or Gaylord Perry’s doctoring baseballs.

You are correct Bond’s action were not as reprehensible as being a racist…. But Ty Cobb did not become a racist to improve his ability to play baseball and hit more homeruns. Barry Bonds purchased steroids, injected them into his body and then lied about it for the sole purpose to improve his ability to hit a baseball further and run faster.

Being drunk, fighting with umpires, turning a blind eye to segregation is in no way compared to injecting steroids for years for the sole purpose to improve your baseball status. Drinking, smoking, sex with different women in each town will hurt baseball performance and doesn’t improve your baseball skill and inflate the numbers produced.

I am comfortable saying I believe Barry Bonds baseball numbers are inflated due to years of steroid use and he should not be in the HOF. I am comfortable saying Ty Cobb was a racist and his actions were more reprehensible than Bonds…. but Cobb’s baseball numbers were not inflated so he should be in the HOF.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
5:06 pm

I’m thinking the Niner nation is making a comeback!!!

I’m excited as well. However…..

I just saw a Packer defense that took a huge step back(Clay Matthews and B.J. Raji, specifically). I would of never guessed that could happen, especially with Capers as the D coordinator.

Or maybe they should of stopped doing those Discount Double Check commercials.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
5:06 pm

“A hybrid 3-4/4-3, at the very least”

Remember when they tried that here? Looked like we were playin’ a 3-3-3. That’s nine players, for those scoring at home.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
5:08 pm

That’s what makes the Steelers and Ravens such great organizations. Sustained defensive success for the last 10-12 years(even more for the Steelers…..like 30 years).

BravePack

January 17th, 2012
5:10 pm

Would still love to have a Cody Ross type bat for LF when Chipper sits and Prado moves to 3rd. Getting real tired of the Matt Diaz experiment out there in LF. If Chipper goes down for an extended amount of time it won’t be good unless Joey Terds tears it up in AA.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
5:10 pm

It never works. Hybrids, that is. 3-4 is hard to mold a 4-3 team into. Takes time to find 3-4 DE’s that can hold the point, yet still rush the passer. Not every team can find Justin Smith’s and Ray McDonalds… :)

And pass rushing OLB’s that can also play during base downs ain’t easy to find either. 4-3 defense is so much easier to develop, imo.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
5:12 pm

6′3” 290lbs+ for 3-4 DE
6′1” 315 lbs+ for 3-4 NT
6′0” 245 lbs+ for 3-4 OLB

keylargo

January 17th, 2012
5:13 pm

Here’s some video on Chris Jones, the lefty pitcher the Braves got from Cleveland who has been described as a LHed Medlen.

http://www.talkingchop.com/2011/11/1/2529252/a-little-more-about-new-braves-prospect-chris-jones,

nolie

January 17th, 2012
5:14 pm

Did they already cancel Prime Suspect? Boo
I thought the last season of Fringe was the greatest but since the two worlds are in contact this year the ratings have really tumbled from what I hear. Prolly gone. boo

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
5:14 pm

Bigger ILB’s are needed as well, because they need to be able to shed off Guards that are making blocks for the RB’s. Pat Willis and Bowman are listed in the 6′1” 240 LB range…..”listed” weight…

Jimmy (MA)

January 17th, 2012
5:15 pm

damn Efrim, you know about Football too?

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
5:16 pm

DAP, it’s unreasonable to assume Bonds’s career would have ended after his age 28 season. Even Griffey, with all his injuries, played until he was 40. Even if you stop his career then, his numbers are in Jim Rice territory, and better when you consider defense.

Crazy, why discount a player’s whole career because he used PED’s? What happens if Chipper is found to have used at some point? You keep him out?

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
5:17 pm

Efrim-

The Niners run a hybrid 3-4/4-3…their base is a 3-4, but they do switch it up quite often (reason why Justin Smith was an All-Pro at 2 different positions)

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
5:18 pm

Did anyone catch Alcatraz on Fox yesterday? Thought about catching the premiere but forgot to DVR it. Thoughts?

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
5:19 pm

Sopheee-

We have it recorded- have not watched yet

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:19 pm

What happens if Chipper is found to have used at some point? You keep him out?

Yes.

Braveheart

January 17th, 2012
5:22 pm

Who cares? MLB and the HOF probably like the arguments. It keeps baseball as a topic of discussion, rather than Tim Tebow’s release point.

Exactly. Pete Rose doesn’t want to make the Hall of Fame. Too much money to be made being the guy being banished from the HOF.

brian

January 17th, 2012
5:24 pm

good for the Falcons. The Falcons should have no trouble focusing on the off season workouts. A few smart free agent moves and the Falcons should make a better run next year.

I am glad that the Falcons have changed coordinators. The Falcons showed little creativity offensively and defensively this year. The Falcons were not aggressive at all. At times it also seemed that they were going through the motions. Whether it was “chemistry”, the coaches, or players or a combo something was definitely missing from the Falcons this year.

Shaun

January 17th, 2012
5:24 pm

ColoradoBravesFan, here’s the problem: Bonds numbers would have very likely been good enough without PED’s. His numbers were so outstanding that it’s silly to assume he wasn’t a Hall of Famer, regardless. So then the argument has to go back to whether Bonds’s actions were more reprehensible than Cobb’s. And you already agree that they are not. Or you have to go with that you don’t like Bonds and that’s what this is all about. It’s fine if you don’t like the guy. I don’t think that’s enough to keep a guy out of the Hall. There are plenty of Hall of Famers that don’t seem very likeable, in my view.

But to say Bonds’s numbers were inflated by PED’s and therefore he’s not a Hall of Famer is a stretch. Bonds is not even close to a borderline candidate. His numbers are up there in Ruth territory as the most impressive ever. You take away PED’s, unless you discount his numbers to a completely unreasonable degree, and he’s still clearly a Hall of Famer.

Look at someone like Griffey. Bonds was considered a better player early in their careers. Griffey was never under the PED suspicion and he’s still a clear-cut, possible first-ballot Hall of Famer. So how could one reasonable argue that PED’s are what pushed Bonds’s numbers into Hall of Fame territory?

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:28 pm

Shaun, did the doctor give you any kind of special care instructions for your new monkey pube hair? Can you wash it or does your mom have to sit behind you and pick out all of the bugs/dirt by hand?

Jbailz

January 17th, 2012
5:28 pm

Sophee – Have it on the DVR, want to watch it tonight. Will let you know.

Efrim – I’m not sure what happened to the Pack, maybe they lost the desire to win it all or they just had an off day for the entire team. But that was not the Packers I’ve been watching all year…

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
5:30 pm

W/exception of small moves, “I think this is likely the team we not only got to spring training with but that we break camp with,” Wren said.

Braves are around $90M w/ current payroll, and Wren said they want to retain some payroll flexibility to make midseason moves.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
5:30 pm

The thing with the Packers- They basically just ran into a team that was able to slow them down. Their defense has been terrible all year- finished dead last in the entire NFL in total defense. During the regular season, Rodgers and the offense were able to cover up their total lack of ability to play D. Against the Giants, they were not and got exposed.

BravePack

January 17th, 2012
5:31 pm

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:28 pm
Shaun, did the doctor give you any kind of special care instructions for your new monkey pube hair? Can you wash it or does your mom have to sit behind you and pick out all of the bugs/dirt by hand?

I don’t think I want to know what this about.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
5:32 pm

no surprise DOB

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 17th, 2012
5:36 pm

Basically, Wren is saying he’s gonna add to his bench. Everything else is finished.

Bay Area Steve

January 17th, 2012
5:37 pm

Murph,

While I think your Shaun/hair bit is played out, I did think you should be aware of ‘OB’s contact on twitter: @baldheaded1der

Do you think?

And, gimme some four-year-old stuff. Nothing yet?

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:39 pm

BP, Shaun just got back from the Netherlands where he underwent a radical hair transplant surgery… they implanted over 200k monkey pubes into his scalp. That’s why he’s been away from the blog for so long. Not only do they have to implant each hair individually, but you can imagine how difficult it is to harvest the hair from the monkeys.

brian

January 17th, 2012
5:41 pm

Wren is right to say that this is the team we will take to camp and leave camp with. First of all, it probably is the team so Wren has to show confidence in his team and the players. Second, a GM is not going to announce I am desparate for a LF or I really want to dump this player or that player. People start looking for pitching in spring training it helps negotiation when Wren has said this is the team I am breaking camp with.

CB

January 17th, 2012
5:41 pm

Soph, Alcatraz appears to be promising. Wife and I both liked the premiere.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:45 pm

While I think your Shaun/hair bit is played out

Never!

And, gimme some four-year-old stuff. Nothing yet?

She’s had a pretty tame couple of days. Not much to report. She did give the 5 year old her first real black eye yesterday, though. Went to meet the family at Red Robin (the 4 year old’s favorite lunch spot) to celebrate her birthday. They got there first and, as I approached the table, I heard the 5 year old say “Do it. I dare you. I dare you!!!” which was followed by the 4 year old punching her square in the eye, closed fist and all. The 5 year old crumpled, slipping off the slick booth material and under the table in a stream of tears.

brian

January 17th, 2012
5:45 pm

Shaun-

Bonds made his choices and now he has to live with the consequences. Yes, he was a Hall of Famer without PEDs. He was not satisfied with that and made a choice that affected the integrity of the game. He is the poster child for the darkest era in modern baseball history. He will not make the Hall of Fame which honors baseball

chipper say we better team then Phillies

January 17th, 2012
5:46 pm

We goin make Playoffs U kiddin me Playoffs ..Playoffs u say U have be kiddin me…..That way is for 2012 we did not Get prince fielder Miami has inproved so dam much they be one’s tryin take east from Phillies and Nats.While Freddie Gonz and Wren Band will just tip there caps when Ozzie Gullien wins 97games in first year at helm and in a new stadium…and Carlos Zambrano will return to his form and win 20 games this year and bean chipper Jones so he can be out for season! And what will are great Freddie Gonz do to get even why tip his cap to Ozzie n lose 93 Games this season n Wren will be fired after 2012 season is over!

chipper say we better team then Phillies

January 17th, 2012
5:49 pm

Wren would break wind after camp then confess he a lousy GM like Billy Beano is with Oakland A’s….like said Phillies win East Miami will be second and 3rd is Nats and Braves n Mets will be tryin stay out of last place sorry folks ……looks like its goin be a Lonnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnng season here again!

Go Go Pilots

January 17th, 2012
5:51 pm

Roger Maris should be in Hall after all the crap you writers gave him as for dale M….. No way

Venice Jim

January 17th, 2012
5:51 pm

Hard to argue with impeccable logic…

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:53 pm

Read “chipper say we better team then Phillies” posts with a Jamaican accent…

“He a lousy GM!” Mamalukaboobooday said as she entered the hut. “Looks like it goin be a lonnnng season up in here again!” she exclaimed.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
5:54 pm

I think all this “integrity of the game” stuff is pretty naive thinking

Skeezix

January 17th, 2012
5:58 pm

Duh, who would have known that the Braves wouldn’t do anything until midseason?

So predictable.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:59 pm

I think all this “integrity of the game” stuff is pretty naive thinking

“Integrity of the Game” starring Kevin Costner as Randy Birdquist, former major league catcher, beer drinker, wife beater, steroid dealer, turned preacher.

hmmm...

January 17th, 2012
6:06 pm

“damn Efrim, you know about football too”

He knows everything except how to mate. Hasn’t quite figured that one out yet, at least with something besides his rosy palms.

ColoradoBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
6:07 pm

Shaun… Here is the problem. Bonds and Clemens both would have made it into the HOF, but they made the decision to inject steroids to improve their baseball status above other players. Their decision had a direct effect/affect on the game of baseball. Their decision to use steroids inflated their numbers. When or how much the steroids inflated their numbers is not he issue… the issue is that that did it. Not once, not five times but for years they deliberately cheated to improve their stats. Because they did this and did it for years their numbers are inflated and they should not be in the HOF.

And where did you get that I don’t like Bonds? I never stated that at all. I like Bonds much better than Clemens and Ty Cobb I can tell you that.

BravePack

January 17th, 2012
6:09 pm

Murph

January 17th, 2012
5:39 pm
BP, Shaun just got back from the Netherlands where he underwent a radical hair transplant surgery… they implanted over 200k monkey pubes into his scalp. That’s why he’s been away from the blog for so long. Not only do they have to implant each hair individually, but you can imagine how difficult it is to harvest the hair from the monkeys.

I have a hard time believing this even if I wanted to and even if I did I think I’d rather have nothing up there than monkey pubes or at least my own if any pubes, at least I know where those have been.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
6:15 pm

BP, the monkeys they use for the procedure are farm raised. They don’t take take them out of the wild or anything like that. It’s pretty ethical.

Shaun promised he’d send me a picture of his new do. I’ll post it as soon as I’m done photoshop… errrr… as soon as I get it.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
6:16 pm

@brian, I will say first and foremost, I am not making any excuses about Bonds. He let ego get in the way and took the PED’s. He didn’t have to do that to be considered one of the all time greatest. His numbers were there. I will throw this out there in comparison with Rose and Bonds. What Bonds did, was not good but under the baseball rules not illegal. Showed lack of integrity and disrespect for the game. What Rose did was against the rules of baseball. DOB can confirm this but the No Gambling is posted among other rules. There were strong rumors about the people that Rose ran around with early on his career. It would not bother me at all if neither one ever gets in. I believe that their gear is in is good enough especially Rose. But as I have stated earlier, I don’t like the guy.

Denny

January 17th, 2012
6:17 pm

Glad Wren is confident, because I sure as hell am not. The offense will once again have the fans pulling their hair out and what worries you is the infield defense. Uggla and Chipper have very limits range and Pastornicky is by all accounts a poor defender. That leaves Freddie as the only one who is a really solid glove man. That is rough considering your ace and Jair are groundball pitchers when right.

Also, as deep as the SP is it is also marked with questions on health and durability to go with plenty of inexperience. That poor bullpen will be in for another grueling season of overwork I’m afraid.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
6:19 pm

The offense will once again have the fans pulling their hair out

We might be able to get a group rate on the monkey hair transplants

CB

January 17th, 2012
6:22 pm

So,if I understand correctly our bench will be Wilson,David Ross,Diaz,Hinske and Constanza. Wow,that is weak.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
6:23 pm

So,if I understand correctly our bench will be Wilson,David Ross,Diaz,Hinske and Constanza. Wow,that is weak.

Now imagine our lineup if Chipper gets hurt and Pastornicky fails to produce…

Steve

January 17th, 2012
6:23 pm

A letter JS did send;
Trying fences to mend;
But fans did remember;
A losing September;
And a hapless GM

Denny

January 17th, 2012
6:27 pm

I really hope most other fans don’t feel the way I do about this team, otherwise attendance will be down much more than it already has been at Turner Field. I will not be spending a dime on this team simply because I don’t see an ounce of improvement from last year and it could be a worse off club. Yeah yeah yeah…..they nearly made the playoffs. However, what psychological effect did that complete meltdown have on the team, especially so many young guys who were smack dab in the middle of it? It could be a long year folks. I will not be wasting my time with it.

Braves.com needs to quite sending me messages about buying Braves tickets for the upcoming season. Not. Happening.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
6:34 pm

You can always block sender or unsubscribe if you do not want to receive emails. Very easy solution. One of the advantages that we have over the teams in our division is if one of our pitchers go down, we have talent ready to take their spot. No other team in our division has the depth in their pitching. It will be curious to see what Wren does at the trade deadline for the stretch run.

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
6:35 pm

I think there’s an option to stop getting those emails

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
6:37 pm

With Lowe, McLouth, and A-Gon off the team, I don’t see this team doing worse than last year

Disgusted

January 17th, 2012
6:38 pm

The Braves really need to get off to a strong start or its going to be a long year at the gate.

If the Braves fall back say 10 or 12 games and get passed over by the Fish and Nats, I hope I am wrong but I can see attendance falling below 2 million for the first time in over 20 yrs.

No one wants that, even the most hardened cynic and I am one of them do not want that.

I know that its frustrating with Liberty Media, but boycotting the team is counterproductive.

For the purpose of saving face of the ATL as a baseball town, just get to a few games if you can afford it and have the time. I do not want to dictate how people should spend their $$$$$, but I plead with you, staying away becaue you are mad is not going to solve anything.

Why give POS people like Rod Parker more ammo to fire down on us.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
6:39 pm

IF the Rangers sign Prince and if Darvish is the real deal, Rangers would have to be the early favorites to return to the World Series. That lineup would be the best in baseball. One scary lineup.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
6:39 pm

Braves have re-signed Moylan. It’s a minor-league deal that will pay $1 mill prorated for time in majors, plus incentives.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
6:40 pm

√ajcbraves David O’Brien
Peter Moylan and #Braves agreed on a 1-year deal. The affable Aussie returns, coming off shoulder surgery, should be ready early season.

Peter’s Back!!

Denny

January 17th, 2012
6:40 pm

So what Wren did was downgrade a position of importance because of the “potential”that’s in Pastornicky. Fine, everybody needs a chance. However, your team with so many health and inexperience issues doesn’t have room for another project. Not if you want to overtake the Phillies and to beat down two improved teams in your own division. Wren failed at his job this offseason. Spin it any which way you guys want, but this GM just downgraded one of the bigger highlights his team had which was a stellar defensive SS. Just dumb.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
6:41 pm

nobody really seems to be taking into account that our division will be considerably tougher next season and a little “addition by subtraction” won’t be good enough. hello, everybody, we play most of our games against New York, Miami, Washington, and PHILADELPHIA, so maybe our standing pat GM needs to get off his behind and find some offense!

MIBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
6:43 pm

That’s great news about Peter!

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
6:43 pm

With what money would you like our GM to find that offense? We are pretty much tapped out there…

Denny

January 17th, 2012
6:45 pm

Getting excited over a relief pitcher which probably will be out for extended time recovering? A guy who is a major health scare every time he steps on the mound these days anyhow. Very sad we Braves fans have been sucker punched time after time since the dive started back in September.

We could be Cubs fans though, right? Trying to find the positive here.

The Lumber

January 17th, 2012
6:46 pm

I think we need to get more bench and outfield help. Trade for the Dodgers Jerry Sands, take a flyer on Betemit or Tejada. Wish we had the cash to make a run at Cespedes.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
6:46 pm

never once have I said that we need to spend any money, cut loose some more dead weight and trade surplus pitching. I’m not an idiot, I realize there are budget constraints, but also some questionable folks on our roster and way too many pitchers in the minors that won’t have a spot any time soon…

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
6:46 pm

Sorry, guys. Nobody get excited about Moylan coming back. Not allowed.

abwright

January 17th, 2012
6:47 pm

I’m glad to hear that the Braves signed Peter. He’s had some tough breaks, and the Braves will give him a chance to get back in the game.

I’m really pulling for Moylan and hope he gets back to the bigs.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
6:50 pm

Sorry, guys. Nobody get excited about Moylan coming back. Not allowed.

WOO HO… oh. Oh, sorry. Sorry everyone. Sorry about that.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
6:51 pm

BravesFan, it takes two to make a trade. Very simple. Its easy for all of us to say go make a trade. Doing it with the intention of making this team better is the hard part.

Denny

January 17th, 2012
6:51 pm

cabravesfan- it is called being creative by dealing certain parts to acquire others. Wren should not have depended on a poor defensive kid at SS. That is really dangerous to do when you already have two guys to his side that are limited on range, Jones and Uggla. Wilson is a backup who can’t hit, so don’t bring him up. Name me one team in recent memory that has won a championship with a poor defensive SS, one who is a rookie on top of that?

Murph

January 17th, 2012
6:52 pm

way too many pitchers in the minors that won’t have a spot any time soon…

Come August, when both Hanson and JJ are on the DL, you’ll be very happy that Teheran, Delgado, and Vizcaino are still in the system.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
6:54 pm

I seem to recall there not being a lot of options at shortstop to go after to begin with. Besides, I have no idea if Pastornicky is a poor fielder, never having seen him play.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
6:56 pm

Giants and Lincecom .. record filing numbers. WOW, 17m and 21.5m

old man

January 17th, 2012
6:56 pm

Nobody noted my post a couple of days ago–but fangraphs Fan projections has all of our seven starters (eight, minus SS) doing substantially better as a group based on WAR numbers. Even those identifying themselves as non-Braves fans. So seeing a big uptick on the offense may not be out of the question, even without a blockbuster trade.

Murph

January 17th, 2012
6:57 pm

I hope Lincecum gets his $21.5mil

old man

January 17th, 2012
6:58 pm

Our SS production will not go down in 2012. It may not be great, but it will not go down.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
6:59 pm

nope, sorry, I won’t be because by then it won’t matter. The “it takes two to make a trade” bit doesn’t wash because Wren has made it very clear he doesn’t want to move any of those pitching prospects so it isn’t the other clubs, it’s Wren and his phobia of trading pitching prospects…

Ray

January 17th, 2012
6:59 pm

cab, none of us have seen him field. There are reports that he is fast, weak arm, and he has committed quite a few errors. Lets see what the kid does in spring training. Lets see what he does first part of the season. I am sure having Wilson there and Chipper there to mentor him and a lot of hard work, the kid will be just fine. The speed he has will add to the lineup too.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
7:01 pm

Ray-

Exactly. Before we start complaining about him, maybe we should watch him actually play at the MLB level. I seem to recall when Mac came up, he was known as a strong defensive catcher but not much of a hitter. We all know how accurate that scouting report was… ;)

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
7:03 pm

The last time the Braves traded pitching prospects is STILL being complained about on this blog. And I’m betting some of the folks that are saying we should trade some of that talent would be among the first to whine about it if they become the ace of another team’s staff…

Ray

January 17th, 2012
7:04 pm

@bravesfan, I am sure if the right deal came up Wren would trade one of the pitchers. No he is not going to trade one of the top 3-4, but the Braves are deep in pitching and if he felt the return was right to improve the team he would. Who would you have liked for him to go after. And yes it does take two to trade. The other side has to be willing to give up quality for pitching. You can’t offer plastic and expect the Braves to give up gold.

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 17th, 2012
7:05 pm

Petey Pablo Is Back for Another Season! Nice! A Hella lot better than Linebrink…

Ray

January 17th, 2012
7:07 pm

cab, also I remember last year the complaints about Freeman. He couldn’t do this and couldn’t do that. The kid proved he could play. Bottom line. And yes you are right, trade one and the same ones complaining about not trading them would go nuts. All of these trade experts, I would like to see what they would allegedly go after in a trade.

Mister Frisky

January 17th, 2012
7:08 pm

Still 4th place.

BravesFanSince80's

January 17th, 2012
7:08 pm

nope you won’t hear me whining so long as it isn’t a “rental” trade

Ray

January 17th, 2012
7:10 pm

Braves fan, so please share who would you like for the Braves to go after in a trade.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
7:11 pm

Wren should not have depended on a poor defensive kid at SS. _ Denny

Don’t we know it. What a let down that guy was.

The Lumber

January 17th, 2012
7:13 pm

MF – You think the Braves will be in 4ht place?

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
7:18 pm

Nobody noted my post a couple of days ago–but _ old man

I saw that, old man, and I agree, the offense will most likely be much better.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
7:25 pm

I am predicting that the kid will win the admiration of most fans with his hard nose hustle, attitude, and speed. It will also help when the kid shows that he can handle SS. How many of the doubters will jump all over him when some time in mid May he has a bad game with a couple of errors.

Patio Daddio

January 17th, 2012
7:31 pm

The Rangers were real idiots to call up this SS after he made 32, 31, and 32 errors in the minors he says sarcastically. Got to admit he had only 25 errors last year and 22 his first season. Offensively he and Pastor are the same player Elvis has a better arm

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=andrus001elv

Ray

January 17th, 2012
7:35 pm

PD, don’t you know its easier to say the kid is going to be a bust instead of giving him a chance. The good news is our opinions don’t really matter. How many on here truly ripped FF and said he would not hit, and he would not do this or that. But of course none of them will say they were wrong on that.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
7:36 pm

I can’t believe Shaun spent all day deriding Babe Ruth’s character. One of these days I’m gonna run into Shaun somewhere and when I do ………..BOOM …… I’m gonna punch right in the mouth on The Babe’s behalf

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
7:37 pm

Patio Daddio

January 17th, 2012
7:39 pm

The Rev made 28, 12, and 26 errors in the minors, not quite as impressive as Elvis errors of 32, 31, and 32

http://www.baseball-reference.com/minors/player.cgi?id=pastor001tyl

VaBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
7:39 pm

Good to hear Moylan is back, still confused tho were loaded with relievers and yet bring in another one. But the bench is very thin and the weakest part of our ballclub.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
7:39 pm

I see the maroons are out drinking the dark kool aid tonight.

Patio Daddio

January 17th, 2012
7:43 pm

Ray Wren was bashed in 209 for announcing Heyward would get a chance in RF

Was bashed in 2010 for announcing Freeman would get a chance at 1B

Is being bashed in 2011 for announcing Pastornicky would get a chance at SS

And will be bashed in 2012 for announcing another player getting a shot at any position

jeffrey doo doo

January 17th, 2012
7:44 pm

I thought the optimists drank the Kool Aid

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
7:47 pm

The Niners run a hybrid 3-4/4-3…their base is a 3-4, but they do switch it up quite often

cab, their base is a 3-4 and they move to nickel package on third downs. Aldon Smith(RDE) and Chris Culliver(nickel CB) come into the game. McDonald and Smith move inside and Ahmad Brooks lines up at LDE. They don’t run a 3-4/4-3 hybrid because they don’t move Bowman or Willis to the OLB at any point in their system. Parys Haralson plays standing up on 1st and 2nd downs then leaves the game on 3rd downs when Smith/Culliver come in. Sopoaga leaves on passing downs as well…..

Patio Daddio

January 17th, 2012
7:48 pm

Jeffrey doo doo i put Vodka in my kool aid so i can think clearly

nolie

January 17th, 2012
7:49 pm

they both drink kool aid, just different colors, although the maroons is too stoopid to know it

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
7:50 pm

And will be bashed in 2012 for announcing another player getting a shot at any position

Thank the good lord Tim Wheeler is not going to play CF for Atlanta in 2013.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
7:54 pm

PD, I know. and Nolie who are you referring to? Efrim–no doubt.

Peter

January 17th, 2012
7:56 pm

O’Ventbrel has to go. Long live the Untouchables!!

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
7:56 pm

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
7:57 pm

Efrim-

OK, technically they don’t play a 3-4/4-3 hybrid (actually heard someone refer to it as a 3-4/4-2 which I suppose is more accurate)- but they don’t play a standard 3-4 all the time. That was the point I was trying to make- that a team can actually be successful playing a combination of fronts. Which, at least for next year, is probably what the Falcons will have to do until they can get the proper players to run a more standard 3-4 under Nolan.

keylargo

January 17th, 2012
7:59 pm

I’ve been wanting to say your and idiot tonight but it’s too many to choose from.

VaBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
8:00 pm

Patio

Well I think its more about “what if” Pastornicky fails and isn’t ready. Wren’s backup plan is Jack Wilson…While he makes for a good backup there is no way I want him playing everyday. All he’ll provide is good defense. He hit’s like SeaBass but without the power. He is basically a 2nd hitting pitcher in your lineup. Since 2009 his line is 250/285/329…………

I have no problem giving the job to Pastornicky, but he only has 27 games played in AAA and is still only 22. He’s pegged to top out around a above average regular. He isn’t a Heyward or Freeman type. that’s why there’s cause for concern. I’m sure if he tanks Wren will quickly bring in a new Shortstop, no way Wilson will be starting a ton of games, if Wren is serious about winning that is.

I really think Pastornicky will provide average defense, with a batting line around 260/330/360 in that ballpark area. He’ll provide good speed, but batting 8th he won’t be running much. Good approach at the plate and should make alot of contact.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
8:02 pm

guys started in baseball with the second game that was ever played. They have used the best, most modern ways that they had available at the time. The onliest real difference has been in the effectiveness of the ways they cheated.
PEDS > speed etc, but the intent is the same. It’s all cheating

nolie

January 17th, 2012
8:04 pm

“started cheating” 8:02

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:04 pm

The prodigal “daughter” (grandmother) is back. And, I promise I was NOT receiving monkey pubes implants, either! (Yes, I read the comments before commenting.) I have really, really missed you guys! Good to know all the regulars are here again.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
8:05 pm

Va, I totally get everyone’s concern. Don’t worry too much about the reports that he will top out as a utility player. This I know and history has proven it time and time again, there are a LOT of wrong scouting reports. Guys turn out way better than projected and yes vice versa.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:07 pm

*sigh* Guess I hafta own up to being a “homer” and totally believing in this team this year. Of course, I usually DO and even when they have a total meltdown in Sept., still love’em and wish the best for them the next year.

Dawg'88

January 17th, 2012
8:07 pm

Dave….what time do the Braves workout/practice during the 2 weeks before the Spring Training schedule gets underway?

Hugo Z Hackenbush

January 17th, 2012
8:10 pm

How many would’ve guessed that “monkey pubes” would be the most popular phrase on this blog today?

Ray

January 17th, 2012
8:13 pm

VA, IF the Braves get 260/340/360 range, then I think the Braves will be pleased. Also if he gives us solid defense that will really be the key. I just have a feeling the way the kid will approach the game he is going to win over “most” fans.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:17 pm

Hubby bought me a signed Dale Murphy bat for my collection as a Christmas present and it brought tears to my eyes. Think it’s because I don’t feel like he gets the recognition he deserves.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:20 pm

Ray

Guess I feel about him the way I feel about our dermatologist. He has stopped seeing most “lesser” cases and is concentrating on the high risk ones BUT…..he is so special that I feel like anyone he has hired into his practice is more than capable. I have to feel the same way about those making the decisions about the Braves.

nolie

January 17th, 2012
8:20 pm

I hope he makes 700, I’m thinking more like 660, but we’ll see.

David O'Brien

January 17th, 2012
8:21 pm

Oh, even if you completely ignore PED’s, Juan Gonzalez still probably falls short. — Shaun

Really? The guy won two MVP awards, six Silver Slugger awards, and had a .294 career average, .561 slugging percentage and .904 OPS. He had nine seasons with 27 or more homers including five with 42 or more. Had eight seasons with more than 100 RBI including three with at least 140. He hit over .300 five times, slugged .590 or better six times, posted an OBP above .365 five times.

And you think he’d have probably fallen short without any PED cloud over his head? I tend to think he’d have made it, but who knows? I also would’ve thought McGriff would make it, but his voting totals have been so low that I don’t know if he ever will. McGriff has a much bigger body of work than Gonzalez, though he didn’t have as many seasons where he was clearly one of the best 2-3 hitters in his league.

So you might be right about him, actually.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:23 pm

nolie

I’m especially glad to see YOU back. When I had time to read a bit but not comment, your health was an issue.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
8:25 pm

Just Pat, The part that cracks me up is how many are jumping on the kid saying he can’t do this or that and no one on here has seen him play. Yes I am hoping he can handle the job. IF he can’t I have a feeling he will get sent down pretty quick.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:27 pm

Ray

I don’t know any more about dermatology than I know about baseball (except I like watching the Braves!), so therefore I have to have faith in the FO doing the job(s) they’re being paid to do. If they think this kid is ready, I’m more than willing to say…….go for it! Hope he proves the naysayers wrong.

shinburger

January 17th, 2012
8:31 pm

with medlen back and if moylan can stay healthy we will have one helluva pen. too bad they will never pitch with a lead.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:32 pm

I’m also a purist when it comes to the PEDs/Rose discussion and believe that if you break ANY of the baseball “rules”, then……no HOF vote for you! Hubby and I totally disagree on the Rose discussion, but, I prefer to believe more in the “purity” of the game (HA!) than to bend the rules of it.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
8:34 pm

actually heard someone refer to it as a 3-4/4-2 which I suppose is more accurate)- but they don’t play a standard 3-4 all the time

Fair enough. I think next year they will play Aldon Smith standing up so it’ll be a 3-4 pretty much all the time. But this is working so well maybe they’ll just continue with it.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:34 pm

Don’t care whether Bonds would or would not have been a candidate before his usage…..he used, he’s out, IMHO.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
8:35 pm

Efrim-

Regardless, they will need to find a way to get him on the field more. Kid is just a beast.

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:36 pm

Agree with Murph (I think it was) who said it’s about the integrity of the game, not the players.

brian

January 17th, 2012
8:44 pm

way to go Pete! Blog reporting just got easier in getting quotes with Pete back!

Chop Chop

January 17th, 2012
8:45 pm

I’d let all the great players who used into the Hall. I used to think the opposite of that, but I know for a fact that most of the great players at any time in baseball history who have used that stuff if it wasn’t being tested for. Any guy who failed an MLB drug test is fair game. Other than that, vote ‘em in.

Chop Chop

January 17th, 2012
8:45 pm

“would have,” not “who have

Peter

January 17th, 2012
8:47 pm

Bourn
Prado
Chipper
Uggla
McCann
Freeman
Heyward
Pastornicky

Ross
Hinske
Diaz
Wilson
Constanza

Hudson
Hanson
Jurrjens
Beachy
Minor

Kimbrel
Venters
O’Flaherty
Medlen
Moylan
Varvaro
Martinez

I think this is a solid 25 man roster. I left Vizcaino off because I think with Moylan and Medlen both in there we can afford to give him more minor league seasoning as a starter with Teheran and Delgado. The only other thing I would do is get a better back up CF than Constanza, but I don’t see that happening with the budget constraints.

brian

January 17th, 2012
8:54 pm

the AAA rotation will be all world again with Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino, and Gilmartin. Wow

Just Pat

January 17th, 2012
8:56 pm

Hubby has finished his project and is ready to go but I really “appreciate” him sticking around and giving me enough time to get back to this blog. Y’all take care.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
8:59 pm

Good to “see” you, Just Pat. Take care

Peter

January 17th, 2012
9:08 pm

It will be interesting to see in about 3-4 years who the Braves actually keep for the rotation. So many good arms.

kenhotlanta

January 17th, 2012
9:18 pm

Good news on Moylan…welcome back. I’ve spent the last 2 days re-watching Seasons 1 & 2 of Justified, and they were better the 2nd time around. This has to be one of the best TV shows ever.
I’m ready for some more of the further adventures of Raylen Givens and Boyd Crowder…let’s go!

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
9:34 pm

Comment From ChamCham: ]
Delgado,Vizcaino, Simmons, and Bethancourt for McCutchen. Is this enough?

Comment from Mike Newman
No, still too much risk involved. In all honesty, that deal would wind up in a setup man, #3 starter, light hitting SS and wash out catching prospect. There’s not enough guarantee there.

I actually agree with him – based on what we know. Braves don’t have the hitting prospects to make that deal.

BB Fan

January 17th, 2012
9:34 pm

This whole PEDs thing is a little crazy. Before I state my stance, I will say I am 100% in agreement that MLB needed to do something to get the PEDs out of baseball; and I’m glad they have done it and continue to do so. I think it trickles down to the college level and high school as well so by getting rid of the problem at the top, hopefully it helps to keep the younger generation from doing them.

About the HOF…I do not think Bonds, Clemens, Palmeiro, Bagwell, etc should be kept from enshrinement. First ballot election? Yes, but not from it completely. We have no idea how many players took PEDs. We have no idea how much help these PEDs give players. We know it helps them get stronger and may help hand-eye coordination a little but they won’t get me to the big leagues. These players have to have a lot of talent to go along with the PEDs. How many homers did Bonds hit off a pitcher who was using PEDs? How many strike outs did Clemens have against batters using PEDs? It’s a real mess. And do we keep Bagwell out just because he was a big guy so he might have used? I mean obviously it’s not just the big guys that have done them because many if not most of the players caught have been pitchers, speedsters, bench players and role players.

We also do not know when the first player took a PED in baseball. Many writers and fans claim it was in the 80’s but former Braves pitcher Tom House (who pitched from 1971-1978 and was drafted in 1967) said that he saw guys taking anything to get an “advantage” including horse steroids. I don’t remember where I saw it but it was a quote that the article had from him. I don’t know if he was misquoted but I haven’t seen him deny that he said it either. I also know that steroids have been around since the 20’s or 30’s. I think it was a German scientist that created the first steroid. So who knows how many of the records from the 40’s, 50’s, 60’s and 70’s are “authentic.” For all we know, Babe Ruth was taking some kind of steroid. I doubt it, but I can’t say for sure and neither can anybody else.

Also, I find it very odd that so many people want to give the guys who popped “greenies” like they were candy, a free pass. Some say it’s a different kind of cheating. How so? Those players had an unfair advantage over guys that did not pop them. but it’s OK for those abusers to get in the HOF but PED users should be kept out? Wait a minute. Aren’t amphetamines PEDs? They cause increased focus. I would call it a performance enhancer.

What about the pitchers who scuffed the ball or used a substance on the ball? Didn’t they have an unfair advantage over the batter? I would say they did. What about other pitchers who they were competing against for the win or the ERA lead? Yes again. Yet we let them into the HOF. In fact, they are characters of the game.

What about batters who steal signs? They have an unfair advantage over the pitcher they are facing…other hitters they are competing against for the batting title or HR title too. It might be frowned upon in baseball, but they are allowed into the HOF.

So I ask why should the players of today get banned from the HOF for doing the same thing the players of yesterday did? And I don’t want to hear “it changes your body chemistry” either. An unfair advantage is an unfair advantage. Besides, amphetamines must change your body chemistry too if they make a person able to focus better.

What about Lasik Eye Surgery? That’s an advantage. I mean doctor’s invent new procedures everyday. What about Tommy John surgery?

So why should we punish one generation of players but not the others? It makes no sense at all. Every generation had it’s advantages and disadvantages. There’s a whole other list of advantages and disadvantages within the game like: day and night games, cross country road trips, starters staying in to lose the game instead of fresh relievers coming in. I could go on but that’s another topic for another day.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
9:36 pm

After all the arb signings, I am reminded of the Who:

“Meet the new boss… same as the old boss…”

This team – and its manager – will be under incredible pressure to win AT LEAST a playoff spot, if not the division; nothing less will remove the memory of last September’s disgrace. IF the gNats sign Prince, and the Fish have healthy starters, the Braves will be fighting the Mutts for basement space.

Wow, how the mighty have fallen.

Efrim

January 17th, 2012
9:36 pm

I left Vizcaino off because I think with Moylan and Medlen both in there we can afford to give him more minor league seasoning as a starter with Teheran and Delgado.

Unless he struggles mightily in Spring, I don’t see Vizcaino in Triple-A. He’ll be with the big club. I think Moylan starts out in the minors.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 17th, 2012
9:38 pm

And it will all be because this team does not have ONE legitimate 30HR / 100 RBI / .300 bat…

Hell, and one isn’t even enough!!!

Blog Monitor

January 17th, 2012
9:38 pm

Ray

Just Pat, The part that cracks me up is how many are jumping on the kid saying he can’t do this or that and no one on here has seen him play. Yes I am hoping he can handle the job. IF he can’t I have a feeling he will get sent down pretty quick.
___________________________________________________________________________

Well, Joebrave say’s he has a noodle of an arm, and will cost us games, so we are doomed, doomed…

Denny

January 17th, 2012
9:41 pm

Don’t compare Pastornicky to Andrus. Andrus played on a team that had a sick lineup in a hitters park in his rookie year. They could make up for mistakes by his defense with their bats, Braves do not have that. They HAVE to have strong defense, especially at SS. Live and die with pitching and defense and pray for health. That’s pretty much it.

Ray

January 17th, 2012
9:48 pm

Blog

Have you or Joebrave seen the kid play? Have you seen him throw? I doubt it.

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
9:50 pm

Thalia Menninger

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
9:53 pm

There may have been just a tiny little hint of sarcasm in Blog Monitor’s comment, Ray.

Riverscott

January 17th, 2012
9:54 pm

Supes@9:33…
I believe there is an exemption for managers/executives over a certain age – 65, maybe? Bobby is eligible for the HOF immediately as I understand it.
I truly hope the hitters return to their career norm. That is one thing the great Bill James insisted on – past performance is the best indicator of future performance, and unless age or injury becomes an issue, batters should produce stats in line with their previous averages each season (with a spike at age 27 or 28) until they reach about 34 or 35. Remember Constanza was 27 this year – career-best numbers for him; unlikely to be repeated. Of course there are outliers (Chipper) and outright frauds (Bonds).

ryan

January 17th, 2012
9:54 pm

This has been one of the quiet Braves off seasons i have seen in a long time they usually make some type of during the winter but so far nothing i wounder if Braves will be sold .

Ray

January 17th, 2012
9:57 pm

Bat, yeah I got that after I posted and re-read.

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
9:59 pm

cabravesfan I seem to recall when Mac came up, he was known as a strong defensive catcher but not much of a hitter. We all know how accurate that scouting report was…

We also know that it wasn’t written by any of these people…

Bat Masterson

January 17th, 2012
10:06 pm

Ray_

Yeah not always evident at first glance.

old man

January 17th, 2012
10:09 pm

Enter your comments here

McFann O O o

January 17th, 2012
10:21 pm

Wow…V-Mart tore his ACL—that ain’t good…but I found this quote from the GM…”int’resting”, I guess you could say…

“I would not use the word devastating,” Dombrowski said on a Tuesday afternoon conference call. “I would say you’re hit in the gut, you pick yourself up and you go.”

I just “like” it ’cause it bugs me when people abuse the word “devastating”…Pearl Harbor, 9/11, tornadoes, earthquakes, hurricanes…those kinds of events are devastating

nolie

January 17th, 2012
10:24 pm

VJ, if you want the three part “Story of Musicals” get my Email address from Tom O’.

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:28 pm

Hurry up and be March.

Blog Monitor

January 17th, 2012
10:35 pm

no college football, no baseball, this time of year really sucks..

nolie

January 17th, 2012
10:35 pm

don’t be wishing your life away Luv, when you get to be my age you will want some of them days back :?

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:38 pm

nolie-

he’s at work. He’ll be home in about an hour if you want to ask him again (I will totally forget. I forget everything)

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:43 pm

I know it nolie polie but I miss baseball so much. I can’t wait.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:44 pm

I want it to be March too. March is a good month

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:46 pm

March Madness too. Something about brackets, seeds, and upsets just makes me so happy.

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:47 pm

Let’s keep on saving ‘teen ‘teen. It’s worked out well so far.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:48 pm

AHEM….I think you are forgetting something, my dear Sopheee

abwright

January 17th, 2012
10:49 pm

It would be great if you could bank these long slow months and redeem them at a later date.

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:49 pm

Ummm, St. Patrick’s Day? Four leaf clovers are cool too.

abwright

January 17th, 2012
10:50 pm

That would be the ticket for the truly passionate baseball fan … a stasis chamber that let you pause for November through March every year.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:50 pm

ummm, no. (although I do like St. Patrick’s day)

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:52 pm

I kid, I kid. Someone’s birthday is in March too. Let’s guess who.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:53 pm

I know! I KNOW! PICK MEEEEE!!!!

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:53 pm

Speaking of birthdays, happy early birthday Bat. It’s death nail from tomorrow on.

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:55 pm

Yes, cab – do enlighten us.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:56 pm

IT’S MY BIRTHDAY IN MARCH!!! :D Already booked our VEGAS trip!!

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
10:57 pm

Happy super early birthday to you too.

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
10:59 pm

:D I already got a cool birthday present…

Sopheee

January 17th, 2012
11:00 pm

I should’ve waited till March!

cabravesfan

January 17th, 2012
11:03 pm

But I can wear them now! (or soon. It’s been super cold here the last few days)

keylargo

January 17th, 2012
11:10 pm

How’s this for Police work?

Fresno, CA

A woman recorded herself smoking Meth and then killed her two children, wounded her husband and then killed herself.

Police also found 10 grams of methamphetamine, scales, nearly $8000 cash and three handguns. They said they have no indication that the adults were involved in narcotics trafficking.

HUH? :shock: :roll:

phil

January 17th, 2012
11:41 pm

Is meth a narcotic? Not that it matters….

That is just so horribly sad.

phil

January 17th, 2012
11:42 pm

Hope you’re all having a decent winter and a good start to the year….night.

Russell Bell

January 17th, 2012
11:55 pm

Wikipedia (english language pages) and other websites about to blackout for 24 hours…

I gotta refrain from making politically motivated comments here, but if you guys haven’t heard about why Wikipedia et al. is going down for 24 hours, you should check it out.

Tom O'Hawke

January 17th, 2012
11:57 pm

VJ, if you want the three part “Story of Musicals” get my Email address from Tom O’. — nolie

I caught this from one of your earlier posts, nolie. I sent Venice Jim your e-mail.
You know, the last time I sent Jim an e-mail, he ended up relocating across the country.
I’m hoping this doesn’t happen again.

cabravesfan would incarcerate me to her doghouse for life. :sad:

Venice Jim

January 17th, 2012
11:59 pm

Tom – well-timed – I was sending an e-mail to him as you were posting (and someone was reading your e-mail over my shoulder)…

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
12:01 am

Tom-

You’d like it. Nolie’s made it quite luxurious. But I don’t think VJ is going anywhere this time. I hope…

(I just sent you an e-mail)

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
12:12 am

Did I kill the blog? I seem to be good at that :(

Venice Jim

January 18th, 2012
12:14 am

Guess you did…

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
12:15 am

Damn…

Sorry!

N8

January 18th, 2012
12:24 am

“Sorry, DOB, but O’Ventebrel is the stupidest name I’ve ever heard. It’s never worked or been clever and you continue to go with it. Sad.”

Actually, I saw at least one, and possible two national publications/shows using it last summer. Then again, ESPN is pretty stupid too. So….. stupid is as stupid does I guess, right?

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
12:24 am

Listening to Cat Stevens. I love him.

N8

January 18th, 2012
12:28 am

“Better scenario would be for Jurrjens to have another fast start and deal him in June or July, if you’re gonna trade him.”

Like some of us said they should have done last year? Yeah. I guess waiting another year, and another injury later was the safe bet.

N8

January 18th, 2012
12:29 am

Isn’t Cat Stevens a member of the Taliban now?

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
12:31 am

N8-

Don’t think he’s gone that far, but he’s definitely strayed into the “crazy fringe” world. Shame, really, because he is simply a brilliant artist. Nuts, to be sure. But brilliant.

DS1

January 18th, 2012
12:38 am

Jazz killed the CP3-less Clippers tonight by 29 points. I think Blake Griffin was held to 10 points on the night. Would CP3 have made a difference? Certainly. A 29 point difference? I don’t think so.

Does anybody else think Mark Teahen might be a good pickup. The Jays will be paying him the lions share of his contract. We’d be on the hook for minimum salary.

Don’t know if he has anything left in the tank, but a couple of years back, he was a good ballplayer that I seem to recall we had some possible interest in acquiring.

Every time I hear a Cat Stevens song, I get a little sad………….. damned sympathizer!

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
12:40 am

DS1-

Stevens does have a way of making one feel melancholy…

DS1

January 18th, 2012
12:43 am

cab

I am sad to think of what became of him in the past decade.

Another Saturday night and I ain’t got nobody, I got some money cause I just got paid………..

Venice Jim

January 18th, 2012
12:56 am

Of course, Another Saturday Night is his major cover, of a Sam Cooke song…

Venice Jim

January 18th, 2012
12:57 am

DS1 – did you notice someone refer to Piano Man as “God-awful” earlier today?

Venice Jim

January 18th, 2012
1:09 am

I must away ere break of day…

Tomas

January 18th, 2012
1:13 am

I have an idea. :lol:

Red Sox need to improve their pitching, unfortunately for them, they can’t add an efective starter without surpassing the luxury tax. Now normally they would trade their young prospects for a cheap yet effective starter. But since over the last couple of years they have depleted their system by trading for Adrian Gonzalez, Andrew Bailey, Mark Melancon, etc.

Since they need a starter, I’m thinking about a potential match with the Braves and Red Sox. Braves need a LF, they need to improve the teams OBP.

Kevin Youkilis has played LF, 3B, and 1B, and it’s considered one of the toughest outs in baseball and has always gotten on base. He is making 12 million this year and has a club option of 13 million for next year.

If the were to deal Martin Prado and Jair Jurrjens for Kevin Youkilis, Braves will obtain the bat they’ve been looking for in Youkilis who take over Prado’s job, and the Red Sox will obtain a 3B to replace Youkilis and the starter they need. They’ll save about 1-2 million also, Red Sox.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
1:44 am

Just when most of the good dramas have gone into hibernation for awhile, Justified and Southland come back blazing with strong season premieres tonight.

N8

January 18th, 2012
1:47 am

I know Cab. Just a joke. He is/was a brilliant artist. I don’t really let all the other crap get in the way of that. OJ Simpson was a great football player. Doesn’t much all make much difference in my life how much of a jackass he was/is. If that makes any sense.

Justified back w/ a vengeance. Excellent season premiere, sinister new characters. Bring it.” DOB

Absolutely agree. Just got done watching it on the DVR. Simply can’t wait for the 2nd episode.

I’m through disc 1 of Season 3 of SOA. While a good show and I can see why people like it, it simply hasn’t grabbed me like I thought it would. No where near as good of a storyline as Justified is. Not nearly as intense as Rescue Me, and in fact I’m not even sure I like it better than Damages. I’ll continue to watch because I’m “in” now. But to be honest, I’m a little disappointed. Perhaps I expected to much from it with all the hype and with so many people giving raving reviews of it. It has moments of brilliance, but just can’t put my finger on why I don’t like it more than I do. Oh well.

Like I said. I don’t think it’s bad. It’s quite entertaining. Just expected more.

nolie

January 18th, 2012
1:52 am

Piano Man is the song Paul McCarthy said he wished he had written.

nolie

January 18th, 2012
1:54 am

I thought it would. No where near as good of a storyline as Justified is. Not nearly as intense as Rescue Me, and in fact I’m not even sure I like it better than Damages…N8

I like it better than Damages and Rescue Me, not quite as good as Justified

N8

January 18th, 2012
1:58 am

That’s cool nolie. Like I said. I’m not knocking it. Just thought I’d like it more than I have. When I get into a series or a storyline (especially on DVD), I literally can’t wait for the next episode. SOA has had stretches like that. But I’ve found myself getting bored with some of it.

For whatever reason, Damages (more the manner in which they give you the story), has had me from episode one. Rescue Me probably had more to do with the great characters and my love of Denis Leary.

But Justified is probably my favorite show. Hands down.

One thing I will give SOA is that the music they use is fantastic. There has been episodes where the best part to me was the soundtrack.

nolie

January 18th, 2012
2:02 am

I really loved the first season of Damages, I think each succeeding one has been a little weaker than the previous one. Big Dexter fan, but thought this season was a bit disappointing

N8

January 18th, 2012
2:07 am

I agree on Damages from season one to season two. But I liked the 3rd one. Don’t have DirecTV, so I’ll have to wait for season 4 on DVD or netflix.

Dexter is one of the first I’ll do now that I’ve signed up for netflix. Also have the first two seasons of Breaking Bad on DVD. But was waiting to finish the 3 SOA dvd’s before starting them.

nolie

January 18th, 2012
2:24 am

Breaking Bad is just too dark for my taste. In general I like lighter stuff better than deep drama.

Ward

January 18th, 2012
2:30 am

Hello everyone! This time I have the “o”.Good to see everyone all signed.Now we have a better understanding who’s on the Braves roster,and that is good.

N8

January 18th, 2012
3:15 am

That’s what I’ve heard about Breaking Bad nolie. But I usually like that stuff. So I’m guessing I’ll like it. But I thought I’d really like SOA too. So we’ll see….

ncgary

January 18th, 2012
4:59 am

cat stevens
didn’t he preach about love and tolerance.
hey we can’t have that
what if it caught on
that would be terrible wouldn’t it

Ward

January 18th, 2012
5:01 am

Been watching NFL Net Work,and sad what happening to Payton Manning. Should Colts trade him for draft picks,or keep him,to teach Luck?Well tough call there……. All have a good one,and peace………….

Ward

January 18th, 2012
5:03 am

I would keep Peyton for 4 more years to teach Luck,but thats just me. Tough call to have to make.

Ward

January 18th, 2012
5:05 am

Talk tomorrow,and Hope the Braves can get Cody Ross………..Still would like that to happen…….

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
5:25 am

House cleaning, and house keeping chores done, BRAVES face the 2012 season with fresh-scrubbed optimism. Where’s February 19 when you need it?

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
5:28 am

A lomg month away!

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
5:35 am

WINTER BALL

DOMINICA

LICEY TIGERS

PH DONEL LINARES [.196 BA] 1-1, 1 RBI [6].

RHRP JAIRO ASENCIO [SV 3, 4.32 ERA] 1.1 IP, 1 H, 1 R, 0 ER, 0 BB, 2 SO, 2 WP, 6 BF, 2 GO/ 0 AO.

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
5:36 am

Hey, PEYTON MANNING to the REDSKINS for five draft choices this year and next.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
7:45 am

richbrave

Peyton Manning won’t be traded. The Colts will either have to pay him 25 million for a roster bonus or cut him loose. No team will trade for him cause of the roster bonus. He would become a free agent and looking for a new contract. But with him being 34 and coming off of 2 neck surgeries I don’t see him getting another big contract.

I’m a Redskins fan and I hope we don’t sign him. We need to bring in our own QB from the draft. It didnt work with McNabb, im sure it wont work with a 34 year old Manning coming off 2 neck surgeries in 1 season. If we do sign em tho…..I hope we draft a QB still.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
8:19 am

House cleaning, and house keeping chores done, BRAVES face the 2012 season with fresh-scrubbed optimism. Where’s February 19 when you need it?

I do have some of that 25th-man concern, I guess. Wilson and Constanza at the end of the bench gets a little weak with the bat. I mean, one doesn’t expect .300 to be pining down there, but, dang, LOL. Seems that Fredo’s use of Diaz and HInske will have to be judicious.

Still, that concern isn’t enough to deprive me of even a single wink of my forty. The everyday 8 do their job, there won’t be that many ABs for Wilson and Constanza, anyway. If they don’t, any last two bench guys won’t make any difference, either.

O.J.

January 18th, 2012
8:22 am

N8, not only that, but I heard Fredi G said O’Ventbrel on numerous occasions as well.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
8:45 am

ncscoots

Yeah, I mentioned last night that we had awesome bullpen depth. Not to mention probably the best bullpen in baseball, then we go out and bring in another reliever…..Its not a bad thing that Moylan is back, but come on…This ballclub’s biggest weakness is our bench. Jack Wilson is here to provide good defense when he has to play. But he’s basically a pitcher flailing at the plate. Since 2009 he’s hit 250/285/329…..Hinske is coming off a bad season, I have no confidence in Matt Diaz. You can’t do much better than David Ross as a backup catcher so were set there. Other include Constanza, Sutton, Durango. You really would have thought Wren would have added a solid player for the bench.

Lemke's Knuckler

January 18th, 2012
8:47 am

“I do have some of that 25th-man concern, I guess”

That last spot has always been a revolving door. Remember last year they had Brooks Conrad, Matt Young and Brandon Hicks at the 23/24/25 men. And then Young was replaced by Joe Mather at the end of the first month, but he wasn’t much better. I’d say Diaz/Wilson/_____ is a vast improvement over that regardless of who the 25th man is. And players are always cut or traded in spring training, so the Braves might stumble on a guy from one of these teams with overloaded outfields (Texas, Oakland, etc.).

It’s also hard to remember that McLouth was starting in center. This team is much better than the version that started 2011.

Lemke's Knuckler

January 18th, 2012
8:49 am

And I love bringing back Moylan on the one-year deal. Even if he doesn’t pitch, from everything I’ve read, he’s an incredible influence on the team, both mentoring the youngin’s in the pen and keeping guys loose with his humor.

CrαZy

January 18th, 2012
8:59 am

No team will trade for him cause of the roster bonus. He would become a free agent and looking for a new contract. But with him being 34 and coming off of 2 neck surgeries I don’t see him getting another big contract.

He’s going to want to play for a team that’s ready to win not a team rebuilding so strike the redskins off the list. If I was the Denver Broncos I’d trade Tebow for whatever I could get (most likely a couple late picks) then I’d draft a QB like Case Keenum or Kellen Moore late in the draft both projected to be 5th or 6th round guys and then I’d go after Manning with a 1 or 2 year contract. I think he could make at least what Favre made during his last few years.

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
9:01 am

VaBravesFan:

I guess you couldn’t see the sarcasm in my comment. Too straight forward, but I would advise you to stop telling people what they know and don’t. You have no more of an idea what the REDSKINS plan to do at QB than I do.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:02 am

Atlanta
Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Minor
Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty, Medlen, Vizcaino, Varvaro, Martinez

Gwinnett
Teheran, Delgado, Redmond, Cordier, Avilan
Asencio, Moylan, Hoover, Bullock, Chapman, Gearrin, Pruneda

Not sure who I’m missing, but we certainly have a lot of nice relief arms in Triple-A.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:04 am

Miami and Washington are the only two teams with a glaring QB vacancy. Although one of those two could move up and take RG3. Tennesee, Seattle, and Arizona could be possibilities.

Lemke's Knuckler

January 18th, 2012
9:06 am

And not trading Prado will be the best thing Wren did this offseason. I think he’ll have a huge season (.300+ avg, 100+ runs, 40+ doubles) similar to some of the seasons Marcus Giles put up hitting behind Furcal.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:07 am

Baseball America Top 10 Kansas City Royals prospects

1. Mike Montgomery, lhp
2. Bubba Starling, of
3. Wil Myers, of
4. Jake Odorizzi, rhp
5. Cheslor Cuthbert, 3b
6. John Lamb, lhp
7. Kelvin Herrera, rhp
8. Jason Adam, rhp
9. Chris Dwyer, lhp
10. Yordano Ventura, rhp

Loaded.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:09 am

It’s funny, nearly every team gets their first round pick placed in their Top 10 or even Top 5 now. Not sure that used to happen as much with Baseball America. I think they go upside a lot more now than they used to. Gone are the days of Brandon Jones being considered a Top prospect, imo.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:12 am

Be real nice to see Prado play in 150 games this year…..

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
9:12 am

CrAzy

I really don’t want them to sign Manning, but with Snyder he would probably offer the most money. Denver would sign him in free agency, Manning wont be traded.

richbrave

There is alot of options for the Redskins, Tough spot for Shanny. Can’t afford to have another really bad year. QB must be addressed, but the best route is threw the draft. Find our QB that will be here for a long time. But what I said about Manning is a fact. The Colts either keep him to groom Luck and pay him that 25 million roster bonus, or let him go and pay him nothing. No one will trade for him mainly cause of the roster bonus his contract has. Then throw the major injuries concerns on top of that.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
9:14 am

Hopefully Prado bounces back and stays healthy. 300/350/450 15 HR 40 2B sounds nice to me!

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:19 am

With the exception of one Fish the current roster is made up of players from last season….

But does anyone really care?

O.J.

January 18th, 2012
9:21 am

I personally dont think Martin is a good #2 hitter in the lineup. We need a lefty hitting behind Bourn, because that blocks the view of the catcher or the throw has to go around the hitter to second.

Lew

January 18th, 2012
9:23 am

OJ – I don’t disagree with your contention about the #2 hitter, but that would pretty well have to be Heyward. Shaun’s back – don’t get him started again. Please.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
9:25 am

Hopefully by mid-season Heyward is batting 3rd.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:26 am

Buster Olney’s blog this morning talks about what the Mets should do with David Wright. Here is one of his options:

The Mets could attempt to trade Wright sometime in the next 18 months — although they may be frustrated with the quality of the offers they receive. In recent years, the Milwaukee Brewers had no success in trying to get an acceptable package for Prince Fielder, as he neared free agency, and this winter, the Chicago White Sox and the Chicago Cubs have been disappointed with the offers they got for John Danks and Matt Garza, respectively. The White Sox decided to re-sign Danks rather than take 50 cents on the dollar in trade value; the Cubs are still trying to decide what to do with Garza.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
9:30 am

Hopefully by mid-season Heyward is batting 3rd.

I hope so too. Be great if he got off to a fast start and just kept raking on his way to a .290/.390/.500 line. :)

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
9:37 am

Lemke’s Knuckler And not trading Prado will be the best thing Wren did this offseason.

Not too mention the only thing… ;)

VaBravesFan Hopefully by mid-season Heyward is batting 3rd.

I’d be great with that! :P

flange1

January 18th, 2012
9:37 am

If all the Braves players play up to their expectations, I would like this line up

Bourn
Chipper
J Hey
Uggs
BMac
Prado
Freeman
Pastor

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:37 am

The kool aid is flowing among the space camp kiddies this morning :)

MaconBraves (RIP)

January 18th, 2012
9:40 am

Justified premiere was amazing last night! Best show on TV right now! Have Southland on DVR to check out after I get home today.

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
9:40 am

flange1

That lineup is perfection…

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
9:42 am

Fredi should just start the year with this lineup.

Bourn
Heyward
Chipper
Uggla
McCann
Freeman
Prado
Pastornicky

MaconBraves (RIP)

January 18th, 2012
9:43 am

And BTW, Merl Haggard concert canceled here last night after he was admitted to local hospital with an undisclosed illness.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:43 am

David Wright sucks because he’s a Met……..pass the kool aid.

CB

January 18th, 2012
9:44 am

Looking at the Braves as realistically as I can, I believe our starting 8 is good,our starting pitching is good, our bullpen is awesome and our bench sucks. The thing that scares me the most is a major injury to Chipper and we are stuck with a platoon of the bat licker and Diaz. Yikes

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
9:44 am

What’s the best news on the blog this a.m………..cancer free…………at least this time! YES-S-S!

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:44 am

MaconBraves (RIP)

January 18th, 2012
9:40 am

Justified premiere was amazing last night! Best show on TV right now! Have Southland on DVR to check out after I get home today.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>…..

Southland was a good show last night, you have something to look forward too.

O.J.

January 18th, 2012
9:46 am

Flange, I have been saying all along that Chipper should now bat second. He doesnt have as much pop as he use to but he still has a good eye and has great at bats. more walks than strikeouts and he can drive in the runs.

richbrave

January 18th, 2012
9:46 am

Bat licker……….??? Oh yeah, CONSTANZA, almost forgot.

O.J.

January 18th, 2012
9:47 am

CB, if there is a major injury to Chipper, thats where that flexibility in payroll comes in handy. Unless Chipper started spring training off injured, you cant build your roster on what ifs and what nots.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:48 am

I still can’t believe that the Rockies and Braves couldn’t come to terms on a trade.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
9:48 am

Well I have projected Heyward to bounce back with a 275/365/465 20-25 HR 15-20 SB

Hillbilly

January 18th, 2012
9:48 am

Efrim,

Looking at your bullpen at 9:02am, are you proposing that the Braves practice catch and release with Robert Fish? He’s going to have to have a very strong spring to stick around, if you ask me. That’s a lot of quality bullpen arms to beat out.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:50 am

Hey, at least we picked up Luis Durango……

Laugh track to follow!

CB

January 18th, 2012
9:51 am

OJ, don’t believe everything you read Wren says.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
9:52 am

Starting rotation = solid – worst case, all 3 of Hudson, JJ, and Hanson have problems (unlikely) and we have to use the kids (not ALL bad): best case – all 3 are healthy and awsome.

Bullpen = best in MLB. Period.

No Lowe
Bourne for full season
New hitting coaches
No trade of Prado

At least most of the “slumpers of 2010″ will have comebacks, and Uggla will have a better first half = likely.

Lets get a solid RH 4th OF and play ball.

Ray

January 18th, 2012
9:53 am

If Prado plays 150 games this year, it will be a huge bonus.We need 150+ games from Prado, Uggla, Bourn, Freeman, Heyward and Pastor. IF we get 150 games from the kid at ss then it would be real easy to say he is doing a good job.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
9:54 am

Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty, Medlen and Moylan if healthy are locks to pitch out of the pen. Vizcaino has a chance to stick too. So the “Fish” has as good a shot at the last bullpen slot as anybody.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
9:55 am

Projections

Bourn 280/345/350 50+ SB

Heyward 275/365/465 20-25 HR 15 SB

Chipper 280/350/450 12-18 HR

Uggla 255/345/485 25-30 HR

McCann 290/360/470 20-25 HR

Freeman 280/335/445 20-25HR

Prado 290/340/440 10-15 HR

Pastor 250/330/360 15-20 SB

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
9:56 am

Coach – There’s nothing noble or supperior about drinking the “negative” Kool ade. Some of us believe it is realistic to be optimistic about this team.

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
9:58 am

VaBravesFan

Looks great to me!…

O.J.

January 18th, 2012
9:59 am

Here is my ideal lineup

Bourn
Chipper
Prado
McCann
Uggla
Freeman
Heyward
Pastornicky

If Heyward shows he has his swing back, then move him up to the 2 hole and Chipper down.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
9:59 am

Efrim, I’ve noticed in your recent roster posts over the last few days that you’ve got Vizcaino penciled in with the bullpen.

Has there been any indication from the Braves that he’s moving to a relief role fulltime? Given his talent, doesn’t it make more sense to keep him in AAA as a starter?

CB

January 18th, 2012
10:00 am

McFann, Va left out Brian’s two triples.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
10:00 am

David O’Brien
Yes- I bought tickets almost two months ago and drove down for the concert. The Macon Auditorium–built in 1925–is a wonderful venue with great acoustics, seats about 3,000, and I was so looking forward to hearing Merle and the Strangers fill that air with real, breathing country music.
But about seven minutes before showtime, I saw one of Merle’s roadies come onto the darkened stage, take a mike from the stand, and hand it to someone in the wings. Knowing he had cancelled a previous concert three nights ago due to a virus, I thought, “This can’t be good”. And, sure enough, the announcement came that Merle wasn’t feeling strong enough to do the show–he even skipped the sound check that afternoon with the idea of saving it all for the show– and a makeup date of April 25th was announced.
And DOB, just for future reference; Haggard at age 75 can still spellbind with his guitar, fiddle, and voice, doing a Cash imitation one minute before breaking into a Jimmy Rogers or Bing Crosby classic and doing a string-bending lead on his trusted Strat the next. And and the Strangers now include his 20-year-old son Ben, who has turned into quite a force on his own Stratocaster. There’s no simple show of nepotism there.
A look at the schedule shows the Braves finishing up a series in LA on April 25th; otherwise, I’d say that day would turn into a great DOB road trip with me as your personal chauffeur, stopping first for lunch with Mama Louise at the H & H there in Macon, then seeing the sights of the city before stopping in at Fresh Air Barbeque, all before settling in for a memorable concert by the then full force Hag.

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
10:01 am

raleighbravefan, well gee whiz Wally…..ain’t you a hoot :)

O.J.

January 18th, 2012
10:01 am

Raleigh, now if only we could get the slumpers of 2011 to play to their potential. LOL. jk

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
10:01 am

Coach

I wouldn’t say Moylan is a lock yet. Signed him to a Minor League deal, we have a lot of options.

Kimbrel-Venters-EOF-Martinez-Varvaro-Fish-Medlen-Moylan-Asencio-Vizciano, I believe we have a few others that will have ST to prove themselves as well. If Fredi can manage the bullpen better we should keep Vizciano in AAA to be a starter. If not Viz makes alot of sense to help pitch in the 7th and 8th innings.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
10:01 am

Murph – I agree. With all of the BP talent, Viz should be honeing his skills as a starter at AAA.

Ray

January 18th, 2012
10:02 am

Va if we get those numbers we will be just fine. I do think Uggla will exceed 255 and 30 homers though.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
10:04 am

Coach – You may be right…but I don’t think so. I’m pretty sure that you ARE arrogant.

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
10:07 am

CB

Hey yeah! Good point…

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
10:12 am

Murph

I agree it makes alot more sense to groom Vizciano as a starter, but with so much depth at that postion already they could plan to make him a reliever instead. Right now he can contribute on the big league roster. Easily I think he’s our 4th best reliever. As the season goes I think he can be counted on to pitch in more high leverage situations. Also staying in the pen will keep the probable arm issues down as well.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
10:16 am

VaBravesFan

I like those projections pretty well, especially if there’s a good, consistent accumulation of those stats all season long with no prolonged dry spells or slumps. Plus, I’d love to see McCann put up a full season of per-oblique stats from last year.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
10:17 am

“pre-oblique”

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
10:20 am

Ray

If all things go well we should be fine. But if Chipper misses an extended period of time LF will be a huge hole. Also banking on Heyward to bounce back and the rookie Shortstop to make a solid leap to the bigs. The weak bench concerns me if some injuries happen or if players don’t perform. Looking at it now were already counting on some combination of Diaz/Hinske/Constanza/Durango to play LF for 30+ games atleast in 2012. Chipper is gonna have regular days off, and a injury is still very likely with him.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
10:22 am

haggard

I picked McCann to be a top 5 MVP candidate before the 2011 season, I was right until the injury and slump.

JRW

January 18th, 2012
10:29 am

VaBravesFan – Well I have projected Heyward to bounce back with a 275/365/465 20-25 HR 15-20 SB
—————————————————————————————————-
Only if he learns not to bite on the low inside breaking balls. His Kryptonite.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
10:30 am

VaBravesFan

Let’s see; McCann turns 28 the 20th of February, I believe. He’s in those “prime years” and I would love to see him rip off some seasons when your top 5 MVP prediction would be applicable each season. Just think of the wonders that would do for the rest of the lineup as well, not to mention putting to rest those “McCann-Twinkies” references.

Couch Tater

January 18th, 2012
10:31 am

“Bobby let everyone know their roles and made me feel part of the team even though I was a fourth outfielder and pinch-hitter,” Pride says

I wanted dirt. You know, the guys who wouldn’t talk to the media or would treat them like crap. What I found was a discussion about former Brave, Curtis Pride. How he was liked and respected in the interview room.

He’s now giving back to the deaf community, as the head coach of the Gallaudet University baseball team. Here’s an article from 2010…
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/college/baseball/2010-04-27-gallaudet-curtis-pride_N.htm

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
10:34 am

Has there been any indication from the Braves that he’s moving to a relief role fulltime? Given his talent, doesn’t it make more sense to keep him in AAA as a starter?

Murph, his fastball/curveball combo will work right now in the pen. Both those offerings are plus pitches and will work well in a bullpen role for 2012, so that’s where he will be. Long term, I think they should make him a starter. I’m of the opinion that relievers are just far less valuable than starters. Now, elite relievers like Craig Kimbrel are more valuable than your run of the mill #3/4 starter, but I don’t think Kimbrel is more valuable than a top of the rotation piece. Relievers break down, and bullpens are often year to year. So that said, I think Viz’s value should be geared toward starting in the future. But for this years team, his being in the pen can only help the major league team win more baseball games, I guess. I don’t think pitching him in Gwinnett is wasting an asset, unless they think there are NO other available options for the pen.

And in terms of his long term prospects of starting, you’ve seen a lot of relievers being turned into starters after a few years in team’s bullpens, so I think it’s a route the Braves could be comfortable going toward. I guess my one concern with Viz is that the most innings he topped in the minors was like a little over 100 IP, so converting him to a starter may not be as easy – although I’m really not sure if that’s 100% true.

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
10:34 am

Enter your comments here

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
10:35 am

JRW

True. That projections is near the best I think he’ll do. Actually I think everyone would be ok with him matching his career numbers. They would be a huge improvement over last season still.

255/362/427 is his career line. I think he could hit and slug better than that tho.

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
10:37 am

Viz just needs stamina, muscle memory and the head for being a starter. Talent and 4 nasty pitches is always nice

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
10:37 am

Looking at your bullpen at 9:02am, are you proposing that the Braves practice catch and release with Robert Fish?

Hillbilly, I don’t think he sticks. Way too many arms in Triple-A and at the major league level. Unless they reverse course and put Viz in Triple-A, which I don’t see happening. I suppose there is a chance he beats out Varvaro, but I liked what I saw from him last year.

VaBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
10:38 am

Efrim

Hasn’t Vizciano already had arm or shoulder surgery already as well?

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
10:39 am

Be real nice to see Prado play in 150 games this year…..

I’d rather say “Be real nice to see Prado play well in 150 games this year…”

I like the guy, but if he’s going to stink this year, it isn’t going to be nice to watch it for 150 games

Ray

January 18th, 2012
10:39 am

Couch, you are going to be hard pressed to find a former player say anything negative about Bobby Cox. Players simply loved playing for the guy because apparently he was straight up with them and always had their backs.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
10:42 am

Hasn’t Vizciano already had arm or shoulder surgery already as well?

Partially torn Ulnar Collateral Ligament in summer of 2010. He rehabbed it and it didn’t seem to bother him in 2011. He may need TJ surgery at some point in his career, but I don’t think starting would increase those chances. Similar thing happened to Wainwright in 2003(?), I believe. It went seven or eight years later.

Ray

January 18th, 2012
10:44 am

I personally do not see Prado stinking this year. I think he will play well and hopefully stay healthy.

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
10:45 am

DOB, Gonzalez was a corner-outfielder with little defensive value that lacked longevity while playing in a high offensive environment. Add to that the PED stuff and I think that’s why he falls short by a fairly significant margin.

McGriff is in a similar boat, except he had longevity and no PED suspicion. He just lacked a lot of big-time, MVP-type seasons.

Venice Jim

January 18th, 2012
10:52 am

Curtis Pride also played point guard for William and Mary when he was not playing baseball for us…

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
10:53 am

PED=Poster Enhanced Drama

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
10:54 am

well, I’ve tried to edit a post about 4-5 times and it won’t let me post. I’m not sure what non-swear words are not allowed. Ridiculous.

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
10:55 am

haggard not to mention putting to rest those “McCann-Twinkies” references.

Ha! That’d be nice…doubt if it would ever happen:

“He was a Top-5 MVP candidate—big deal!! He could finish first if he would lay off the Twinkies!!”

:roll:

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
11:00 am

The prohibited word is “Shaun” :)

Couch Tater

January 18th, 2012
11:01 am

Couch, you are going to be hard pressed to find a former player say anything negative about Bobby Cox.

I really wasn’t looking for that. I happened on a discussion about different players in media room, good and bad. The discussion just peaked my curiosity about Curtis Pride and whatever happened to him.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
11:05 am

If Prado has a strong year and stays healthy, and Chipper decides to retire, I’d really like to see a long term deal get worked out for Prado to be our third baseman over the next few years. I’ve said before that Howie Kendrick’s deal with the Angels is a decent comparison for what to expect Prado to get: Four years, 33.5 million. But that is only is Prado turns in a strong, healthy year. I think something like 6.5 million in 2012(his last arbitration eligible season) plus at least a three year, 24 million dollar extension. I think that’s fair for both sides.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
11:07 am

well, I’ve tried to edit a post about 4-5 times and it won’t let me post. I’m not sure what non-swear words are not allowed. Ridiculous.

Change “toupee” to “rug” and see if that works…

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
11:08 am

Wow, I didn’t know Moylan was from Western Australia. Only city I know there is Perth – which is suppose to be an awesome place.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
11:13 am

Justified blistered. Charred at the edges. Raylan’s move at the showdown with Fletcher just was…perfect. An Elmore Leonard moment to the hilt.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
11:21 am

Perth, birthplace of Luc Longley, the big redhead

CB

January 18th, 2012
11:22 am

scoots, Poppy Montgomery had a few perfect moves last night also.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
11:27 am

scoots, Poppy Montgomery had a few perfect moves last night also.

Yes, scheduling is now a problem. Poppy and Raylan opposite. Though, truthfully, I’m not that big a fan of Poppy’s show; just Poppy. :-)

Fish Bisch

January 18th, 2012
11:29 am

D Lowe will rebound this year and we’ll be wishing he was pitching for us in no time. Especially come September. Lowe is the best big game pitcher ever.

Hillbilly

January 18th, 2012
11:35 am

scoots and CB,

I give Winona the award for the most perfect move of the night. Oh My.

Don

January 18th, 2012
11:37 am

WHY should anyone BE WORRIED?
AFTER ALL:
(1) Only four out of our five Starting Pitchers are coming off injuries. And everyone knows that after a serious injury, a Pitcher always returns to being great.
(2) And we have a Third Baseman who was a great, great hitter in the past – to hit in the 3rd spot in the batting order even though he no longer produces like a 3rd place hitter – And he can play Part Time – Even though he is not good defensively.
(3) And we have a Shortstop who we know can — Woops — Who there is no reason to think can be productive offensively — and there is no guarantee that he will be really adequate defensively.
(4) And we have a Second Baseman who has some power but does not have an adequate Batting Average or On Base Average — and is barely “get by” defensively.
(5) And we have a Right Fielder who – there is no real reason to think will be productive offenisvely enough to really be a fourth or fifth outfielder.
(6) And we have a Left Fielder (assuming it is Prado) who I feel will probably rebound to once again having great offensive production — but then who will back up Third Base. (Or even worse, we may trade Prado for a Left Fielder who will not be nearly as good a hitter as Prado.)
(7) And if some of our four injured Starting Pitchers do not return to being great, we still have a wealth of additional young Pitching talent — And of all the Starting Pitchers we have had in the 6 or 7 years since Leo left as Pitching Coach, at least one or two of them have not ended up being injured.
SO WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT THE BRAVES WILL NOT WIN THE W.S. OR AT LEAST WIN THE DIVISION OR THE WILD CARD.

Bayou Brave

January 18th, 2012
11:41 am

I like the Braves chances.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
11:45 am

Haggard: I was just about to link to the Merle illness story, wasn’t sure if you’d heard. Didn’t realize you had bought tickets and were at the show (well, before it was cancelled). Sad to hear that, man. Hopefully nothing too serious. Things like this happen to touring artists, not to mention ones in their 70s. I’m sure he’ll recover just fine.

Here’s the AP story, if you haven’t seen it: http://www.accessatlanta.com/atlanta-music/promoter-merle-haggard-hospitalized-1306711.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
11:49 am

Wren on Hanson and how he’s doing this offseason with the shoulder-strengthening work, etc.: “He feels great, doing really well. Our expectations are he comes into spring training ready to go.”

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
11:53 am

Frank Wren on Tim Hudson’s recovery from November back surgery and whether he’ll be ready Opening Day: “It’s too early to know at this point. Everything is going well, he just may be — as we always considered a possibility — he may be slightly behind the other guys. Or he may not be. Or, we may choose to be a little more careful with him in spring, depending on how he responds. So there’s some unknowns there, but it’s going well so far. Quite frankly that’s the beauty of having our pitching depth — if we need to slow him down or whatever the case may be, we have the personnel to allow that to happen.”

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
11:58 am

Yes, scheduling is now a problem. Poppy and Raylan opposite.

Scoots, I know you’re old and set it your ways. Heck, some of my best friends are old and set in their ways, not to mention I am too, but let me make a recommendation. GET A TIVO! It will change the way you watch TV and you can watch an hours worth in 45 minutes! That means you can watch 4 hours of programs you would have missed in 3 hours.

That is a technology worth having.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
12:01 pm

DOB – Why would you believe Wren, when Don makes so much sense?

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
12:07 pm

“He was a Top-5 MVP candidate—big deal!! He could finish first if he would lay off the Twinkies!!”

Who said that McFann? They sound like they could be an ally of mine. :lol:

Or was it you who finally saw the light? :shock:

ChattTownBrian (CTB)

January 18th, 2012
12:08 pm

Pitching depth is great to have. I really like what I saw from Delgado and Minor. Teheran looked like he wasn’t quite ready, but then again he could’ve been tired by the time he was brought up. Medlen also looked sharp in the little bit we saw of him.

Just hate our bench and everybody has to feel worried Chipper could go down at any point. Then what? Who covers Prado in LF?

Heyward looked awful trying to pull everything and injuries with him worry you. They got to have him going as I am expecting some struggles for FF in his 2nd full season as pitchers make adjustments on him. He has a bad habit of swinging early and often, that’s something I see them exposing more on him.

We’ll see.

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
12:13 pm

Keylargo

Wasn’t me…and that wouldn’t so much being “seeing the light” as it would be “looking at the light with blinkers on”…

Anyway, here ya go—scroll down to the sixth “paragraph” under Notes:

http://www.foxsportssouth.com/01/13/12/Braves-Notebook-Atlanta-mourning-loss/landing_braves.html?blockID=645516&feedID=3564

Enjoy.

Nope

January 18th, 2012
12:15 pm

Remember when DOB actually used to interact with people on the blog and provide information here? That was fun.

I’m sure many people enjoy seeing his posts twice, now, though – once in the righthand toolbar when he posts them on Twitter and once in the blogfeed, when he reposts them as comments.

Van the Man

January 18th, 2012
12:18 pm

DOB: I went to see Merle Haggard last nite too, macon.com is now reporting that he’s in the cardiac unit in Macon.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
12:19 pm

Chatt – One would like to think that the combination of getting healthy, and working with the new hitting coaches would get Heyward back on track. If so, he will be great, and it will be HUGH (as Donald Trump would say).

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
12:20 pm

McFann – I didn’t see the Twinkie quote but I did see this which is encouraging.

Catcher Brian McCann looks even trimmer; he’s sticking to the healthy-eating regimen he started last offseason. The strained oblique that hampered his offense in September has healed.

McFann O O o

January 18th, 2012
12:23 pm

Keylargo—

Yes…that’s the one I was talking about…

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
12:33 pm

Don has just won my PED AWARD for Poster Enhanced Drama and the award is here. Others may want to avoid the award by reading this and chill

http://ezinearticles.com/?How-To-Stop-Worrying-About-Everything:-4-Awesome-Tips&id=6343217

Murph

January 18th, 2012
12:33 pm

Catcher Brian McCann looks even trimmer; he’s sticking to the healthy-eating regimen he started last offseason.

Does taking the creme filling out of the Twinkie really constitute “healthy eating”?

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
12:34 pm

Trump would say HUGE, not hugh. :)

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
12:34 pm

Hey hey everybody!

Thought I’d drop in and see how everyone is doin

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
12:36 pm

Patio – Some here ENJOY negative feelings…they revel in them….they live for them.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
12:40 pm

Murph-

Not if it means you’re just saving it for later?

That beard isn’t just for show ;-)

Murph

January 18th, 2012
12:46 pm

What’s up PT? How are the new floors coming along?

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
12:46 pm

Patio – Don will appreciate the recognition. His posts really are saying “look at me, look at me, PLEASE LOOK AT ME”!

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
12:48 pm

he’s sticking to the healthy-eating regimen he started last offseason.

There was a tiny asterisk on that quote. I looked it up and it said does not apply to Feb thru December.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
12:50 pm

Murph-

Not too bad….

Was deathly ill on Sunday over the weekend so I couldn’t completely finish, but I just have a couple reducers and need to cut and place the quarter round down and then I’ll be done….

I have to take back a rug….convinced my significant other that an 8×10 would pretty well cover up the great job I did so we’re gonna take that back to Home Depot and get a 5×7 and then get the furniture back in the living room and out of our dining room….

She hasn’t been incredibly happy about eating in my man cave on tv trays for the last week :lol:

Patrick

January 18th, 2012
12:52 pm

And we have a Shortstop who we know can — Woops — Who there is no reason to think can be productive offensively — and there is no guarantee that he will be really adequate defensively

Right, cause Alex Gonzalez had such a great offensive year last year and even the year before after his trade to the Braves. I never saw so many Strikeouts and GIDP’s in key situations in a single season before by 1 player.

I really believe his lack of offensive is probably one of the biggest reasons that we missed the playoffs, but it never gets talked about cause most of the blame fell on the injuries and slumps, etc…

Lew

January 18th, 2012
12:57 pm

raleighbraves – Some enjoy their negativity? Hell – there are quite a few here who are like some version of a solar panel that absorbs negativity to produce the negative power they need to exist.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
12:57 pm

To be fair, check out AGon’s September numbers… he was one of the few Braves who actually hit a little in the final month.

brian

January 18th, 2012
12:57 pm

largo – in fairness to the guys it has to be hard to eat healthy on the road. With their food allowances, they are eating out the whole time. Don’t exactly see them doing the Subway Diet or just getting a salad with dressing on the side, etc

brian

January 18th, 2012
12:58 pm

AGon was a big disappointment offensively from a trade standpoint in a trade that had to be made. We expected more from AGon and I am sure he expected more production from himself

DAP

January 18th, 2012
1:05 pm

alex gonzalez’s line last year was .241/.270/.372, for a .642 OPS. its only that good because he had a great great at the end.

im confident pastornicky can improve on that line, at least in the OBP category.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
1:06 pm

DAP-

He could come in and hit nothing but singles and improve on that OPS

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
1:07 pm

.642 OPS is Gregor Blanco territory :shock:

Lew

January 18th, 2012
1:09 pm

Re: Pastornicky’s defense – first, I’ve heard it was mainly throws that were his problem – likely to be at least partially dealt with by having Freeman as his first baseman. Second – check out error totals of almost all Braves’ players coming up through the minors -especially at AA and lower where the fields are less than – shall we say, Ed Mangan works of art. The fields suck, the errors mount.

And let’s not discount the couple of months work he’s put in with Jack Wilson – who despite one of the lowest OBP’s I recall ever seeing, is a great defensive ss.

ALbravesfan

January 18th, 2012
1:10 pm

Hell I ain’t negative I just tell the truth. Braves got no hitting but chipper and mcann and Uggla is one of them all or nothing types you can’t count on most of the time. Now freemen and Heyward are young kids and I can’t judge them just yet. Prado is pretty good but he ain’t really a outfielder.

Now you got Huddy with back hurting and big red is coming off injury. What in the world they gonna do if they ain’t themselves. If they hurtin then they won’t be thereself.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
1:12 pm

p-town .642 OPS is Gregor Blanco territory :shock:

no sir, thats under blanco territory.

by the way, gregor blanco got on base at a pretty good rate in the majors. to bad its really the only thing he does well.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
1:14 pm

I see the sky is falling in AL.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
1:14 pm

Scoots, I know you’re old and set it your ways.

Yes, but don’t worry, I have DVR. :-)

Remember, I was a technology geek in the working world. I’m not always quite the dinosaur I may appear to be, LOL.

ALbravesfan

January 18th, 2012
1:14 pm

I’m glad Alex Gonzalez is gone. I got tired of watching that sumbitch strikeout or pop up a out. He’s a good glove man but he just bad attitude and can’t hit his own turds in the toilet.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
1:16 pm

AL-

Yes, but Alex won the team helmet toss two years running….

Wonder who takes the crown in 2012 :lol:

Lew

January 18th, 2012
1:16 pm

Uh, why would he be swinging the bat in the commode? Or in the bathroom for that mater? Must be an Alabama thing?

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
1:16 pm

Scoots-

They didn’t mean dinosaur….

They meant fossil :lol: ;-)

DAP

January 18th, 2012
1:17 pm

i think people underestimate how much gonazlez hurt us offensively. because he plays good defense, his .270 OBP is kinda over looked.

but gonzalez was SO terrible at the plate is kind hard to wrap your brain around…he got the 3rd most plate appearances of ANYONE on the team, though he had BY FAR the lowest OBP. i mean, its not even close.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
1:18 pm

David O’Brien

Thanks so much for the link to the Merle story. You know, back in 2009 he lost the upper lobe of his right lung due to the removal of a tumor and bounced back in great shape following six weeks or so to get his wind back. But–as you say–if you mention “virus” and “singer” in the same sentence, that someone is in a bit of harm’s way. However, I just dialed up a friend there in Macon with his organization and they’re saying his stay is precautionary. I’ll look forward to seeing him perform in April.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
1:19 pm

AL bravesfan He’s a good glove man but he just bad attitude and can’t hit his own turds in the toilet.

interesting word picture…is that a common analogy in alabama?

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
1:19 pm

his .270 OBP is kinda over looked

Less “overlooked”, than “averted the eyes”. :-)

ALbravesfan

January 18th, 2012
1:20 pm

Thats a saying Lew. You know what I meant.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
1:20 pm

DOB – Why would you believe Wren, when Don makes so much sense? — raleighbravesfan

Good point. If I’d just seen that comment, I couldn’t avoided wasting time for all of us.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
1:20 pm

raleighbravefan

“I see the sky is falling in AL”–raleighbravefan.

LOL !

Lew

January 18th, 2012
1:21 pm

Not so sure he’d know they would be that hard if he hadn’t tried it himself.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
1:21 pm

Remember when DOB actually used to interact with people on the blog and provide information here? That was fun.
I’m sure many people enjoy seeing his posts twice, now, though – once in the righthand toolbar when he posts them on Twitter and once in the blogfeed, when he reposts them as comments.
Nope

I’m sure interacting with you always is fun. How could it not be? The good-naturedness just glows from your sentences.

ALbravesfan

January 18th, 2012
1:22 pm

DAP why don’t you come down here and find out. You probably one of them wearing his britches down half off your ass ain’t you. More than enough of me to take care of you and whoever you bring I promise you.

ALbravesfan

January 18th, 2012
1:25 pm

Lew your come on down here to. Big mouth ain’t you.

Mountain Braves Fan

January 18th, 2012
1:29 pm

Alex Gonzalez’s .270 OBP was the fifth lowest among all major league hitters with at least 400 at bats. It was just painful to watch him hit.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
1:29 pm

Nothing like a little blogger on blogger violence to get through lunch break right? :lol:

Tim Hudson (Braves) — BaseballMoves.com

January 18th, 2012
1:30 pm

[...] Source: ajc.com [...]

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
1:31 pm

ALbrave – A little testy today, I see. Did you get enough fiber in your diet?

haggard

January 18th, 2012
1:33 pm

We’re often left lamenting the Liberty factor and hoping for a change to an Arthur Blank or Mark Cuban individual ownership. But DOB’s comment earlier this morning dovetails nicely with some facts Thomas Boswell addressed concerning the Nationals and their bevy of Boras clients:

“Just four teams had payrolls over $140 million in 2011: the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and Angels. Over the past three years, just nine teams have averaged more than $100 million in payroll. Even hugely popular teams such as the Cardinals and Giants aren’t among them.”

http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/prince-fielder-deal-could-cement-nationals-scott-boras-marriage-for-better-or-worse/2012/01/12/gIQAVa4BwP_story.html

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
1:33 pm

Who wants to SPONSOR PEC – Poster Enhanced Charm. Im tied up with PED

Murph

January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm

Lew your come on down here to. Big mouth ain’t you.

I’m sorry, but does anyone here speak jive?

Sopheee

January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm

Internet tough guy. Cute.

ALbravesfan

January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm

Yeah I get plenty of fiber. I don’t no what that means but fiber is healthy and I try to be healthy. More a meat and potatoes feller though.

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm

In 1995 – 97, Rafael Belliard had an OBP of .255, .179, .219.

The Braves won 292 games, went to the World Series twice and NLCS once.

Defense, not offense, is imperitive for a SS.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
1:35 pm

ALbravesfan, everyone is 7 feet tall on the internet.

boy, you are sensitive. i didnt even say anything disparaging! just though it was an interesting analogy. listen, i like it. keep it coming.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
1:35 pm

Nothing like a little blogger on blogger violence to get through lunch break right? — P-Town

Fortunately that’s as close to “violence” as 99.9 percent of the folks here have been in the past decade or three, or ever will be again. Never quite understood the rationale of threats made in a blog comment screen to someone hundreds or thousands of miles away. The act of clicking that “submit reply” button presumably is a substitute for a left jab followed by a right uppercut.

George

January 18th, 2012
1:36 pm

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
10:39 am
Be real nice to see Prado play in 150 games this year…..

I’d rather say “Be real nice to see Prado play well in 150 games this year…”

I like the guy, but if he’s going to stink this year, it isn’t going to be nice to watch it for 150 games
************************************************************************
TP Are you down on MARTIN, thinking he will not play well? Remember he was playing hurt last year, I think he will be back to the real MARTIN this year, just hope F WREN does not trade him.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
1:38 pm

Murph-

That may not be jive, but I do feel like I just stepped into a scene from Deliverance….

I’m waitin for him to say “you got a purty mouth”

haggard

January 18th, 2012
1:42 pm

DOB @1:35 LOL!

Lew

January 18th, 2012
1:43 pm

Well, at least my big mouth has a grasp of the English language.

Lew

January 18th, 2012
1:45 pm

raleighbraves – Ain’t no fiber in gator meat or armadillo.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
1:47 pm

Ned Beatty: “Mr., I like the way you wear that hat”.
Gas station attendant / mountain man:”You don’t know nothin”.

Seldom quoted line from the movie Deliverance.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
1:53 pm

keylargo In 1995 – 97, Rafael Belliard had an OBP of .255, .179, .219.

The Braves won 292 games, went to the World Series twice and NLCS once.

Defense, not offense, is imperitive for a SS

belliards PAs those years: ‘95- 192 ‘96- 148 ‘97- 77.

a combined 417 PAs in 3 seasons. alex gonzelez had 590 last season alone. your argument is flawed, because bellaird was never a starter on any team he ever played on. cause, you know…short stops have to hit, to.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
1:57 pm

Lew – Ah, yes…armadillo…or as they call it in Alabama, possom on the half shell.

haggard

January 18th, 2012
1:59 pm

keylargo @ 1:34

That’s some sound reasoning indeed. Ozzie Smith hit .262 with a whopping 28 home runs, though he did steal almost 600 bases as well. Mr. Larkin looks almost in compariosn.

beekay

January 18th, 2012
1:59 pm

EOF=game
JV= set
CK= match or

EOF=good morning
JV=Good afternoon
CK=good night

haggard

January 18th, 2012
2:00 pm

“Mr. Larkin looks almost Ruthian in comparison.”

DAP

January 18th, 2012
2:09 pm

haggard That’s some sound reasoning indeed

you ight want to check my 1:53 post. ozzie smith was not a heavy hitter, but kept a good OBP throughout his career. not comparable at all to alex gonzalez, or to the life time utility player rafael belliard,

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
2:11 pm

because bellaird was never a starter on any team he ever played on. cause, you know…short stops have to hit, to. DAP

Belliard was the starter in 91 and 92 and was very instrumental to turning the franchise around. He was the starter when the Braves came within a running error of winning the World Series on Lonnie Smith’s goof up. He played 17 years in MLB and 8 for the Braves. The time towards the end of his career was when he did not play every day – just like most players at the end of their career.

Lollygagger

January 18th, 2012
2:17 pm

what’s wrong with O’Ventbrel? I thought it was pretty catchy.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
2:18 pm

keylargo – Yes, and that Lonnie Smith screwup was Bobby Cox’s fault, of course. :)

DAP

January 18th, 2012
2:23 pm

keylargo Belliard was the starter in 91 and 92

you have to use the term pretty loosely. he was a part time player, for sure, starting 110 games in ‘91 and only 90 games in ‘92. alex gonzalez started 142 games last year.

besides, when did we start talking about ‘91 and ‘92? didnt you just quote he his OBPs during 95-97, trying to argue SS OBPs dont matter? again, those three years combined he had about 420 PAs, while gonzalez had 590 in 2011 alone.

im not sure why you think rafael belliard is evidence that SSs dont need to hit. belliards playing time was limited his entire career, because he couldnt hit.

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
2:23 pm

Raleighbravefan – that dumb Bobby Cox should have trained the 35 year old veteran Lonnie Smith to be ready to be ready for the 22 year old rookie Chuck Knoblach fake him out so bad he didn’t know where the ball was for about 3 seconds. :shock:

DAP

January 18th, 2012
2:24 pm

not to mention, the braves chose blauser’s offense over belliard’s defense as soon as they got the chance. i guess they think SS’s should hit a little.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
2:29 pm

keylargo – That was the trouble with Bobby…he didn’t teach career major league veterans enough fundamentals.

DS1

January 18th, 2012
2:30 pm

@DOB

The act of clicking that “submit reply” button presumably is a substitute for a left jab followed by a right uppercut.

Yeah, I’ve whupped some azz and had mine whupped numerous times on the ole blog!

:wink:

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
2:31 pm

So… reading the Moylan article…. basically everything Wren has said up to this point was, well, pointless. They have not upgraded the outfield defense. Heyward is absolutely guaranteed a starting position. They have not made any acquisitions and there was no increase in payroll.

Venice Jim

January 18th, 2012
2:32 pm

Braves’ Clubhouse Report on 680 right now – Beachy coming up in a few minutes…

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
2:34 pm

Alright I hate to do this but I’m going to anyway since I’m bored and the Braves seem pretty set as far as the roster goes. I think the only for sure spots in the line-up are the 1, probably 2, most likely 3 but shouldn’t be in my eyes, and 8 and 9. So based on last year’s numbers I’ll go:

1. Bourn
2. Prado
3. Freeman
4. Uggla
5. McCann
6. Chipper
7. Heyward
8. The Rev
9. P

Thoughts? Ideas?

Puma

January 18th, 2012
2:37 pm

Another spring training question – To anyone who has gone to ST – I noticed that most home games are 2-3 days apart but I will probably only go for 2-3 days. Two questions – are most “away” games an easy drive away? Is there enough stuff going on around the Braves facilities when the games are away to keep you entertained for a day? (inter-squad games, fielding practice, etc) Any insight appreciated

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
2:39 pm

I used 95 to 97 because those were arguably the best years the Braves had. I can tell DAP is about 20 something because he doesn’t seem to remember much baseball before 2000 when any offense above the bare minimum was a plus.

Here’s a 2010 Chart for the best 25 defensive shortstops. You’ll notice that there are 5 with an OPS+ of more than 100 which is average. You’ll also notice who is 6th on the list and 1% below average for a SS.

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
2:39 pm

Rk Player Rfield OPS+ ▾ G Age Tm
1 Troy Tulowitzki 12 138 122 25 COL
2 Hanley Ramirez -10 124 142 26 FLA
3 Stephen Drew 0 113 151 27 ARI
4 Jose Reyes -4 103 133 27 NYM
5 Jamey Carroll 7 101 133 36 LAD
6 Alex Gonzalez 13 99 157 33 TOT
7 Juan Uribe 2 99 148 30 SFG
8 Alexei Ramirez 9 97 156 28 CHW
9 Starlin Castro -12 97 125 20 CHC
10 J.J. Hardy 0 93 101 27 MIN
11 Marco Scutaro 1 92 150 34 BOS
12 Derek Jeter -10 90 157 36 NYY
13 Ian Desmond -9 89 154 24 WSN
14 Cliff Pennington 11 88 156 26 OAK
15 Yuniesky Betancourt -2 88 151 28 KCR
16 Jason Bartlett -3 88 135 30 TBR
17 Jerry Hairston -3 83 119 34 SDP
18 Ramon Santiago 12 82 112 30 DET
19 Ronny Cedeno -4 82 139 27 PIT
20 Yunel Escobar 8 80 135 27 TOT
21 Wilson Valdez 12 79 111 32 PHI
22 Orlando Cabrera -2 78 123 35 CIN
23 Erick Aybar -4 76 138 26 LAA
24 Elvis Andrus 2 75 148 21 TEX
25 Alcides Escobar -3 67 145 23 MIL
26 Josh Wilson 12 62 108 29 SEA
27 Brendan Ryan 15 57 139 28 STL
28 Cesar Izturis 6 50 150 30 BAL

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
2:45 pm

Puma – Enough to do? Excluding Disney and Universal? Yeah, there’s a few things to do in the area.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
2:47 pm

keylargo, its just wierd you are arguing that SSs dont need to hit using rafael belliards numbers from 95-97, when he barely played because he couldnt hit!

so now you argue that gonzalez was bad, but not compared to other SSs. among the 22 MLB qualifiers at SS, gonzalez ranks 21st in average, last in OBP 15th in slg% and 20th in OPS.

gonzalez isnt even decent compered to others at his position.

and im still puzzeled about you invoking rafael belliard. ill say again, his lack of offense limited his playing time his entire career. not sure why you cite him as evidence short stops dont need to hit.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
2:50 pm

My guess at an opening day lineup would be:

1. Bourn
2. Prado
3. Chipper
4. Uggla
5. McCann
6. Freeman
7. Heyward
8. Pastornicky

I think, with fresh legs, Chipper at least starts out the season in his customary 3 spot.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
2:52 pm

keylargo, you posted rankings from 2010 in your 2:39 post. those are old rankings. gonzalez had a 76 OPS+ in 2011.

flange1

January 18th, 2012
2:56 pm

Murph,

I just don’t see Fredo hitting the 3 lefties back to back to back. He loves the LH RH LH thing.

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
2:57 pm

Another spring training question – To anyone who has gone to ST – I noticed that most home games are 2-3 days apart but I will probably only go for 2-3 days. 

Two questions – are most “away” games an easy drive away? 
Yes, the drives to other parks are not too far. Google Lake Buena Vista to the city the game is in during your stay. It will give you distance and drive time.

Is there enough stuff going on around the Braves facilities when the games are away to keep you entertained for a day? (inter-squad games, fielding practice, etc) 
There are B games generally scheduled during away games. Lots going on the back fields. Check schedule for split squad games

Any insight appreciated

Murph

January 18th, 2012
2:59 pm

flange, it’s a good point… but to get the RH-LH thing going he’d have guys hitting in some odd places in the order.

abwright

January 18th, 2012
3:00 pm

alex gonzalez’s line last year was .241/.270/.372, …

I see that line and I sez to myself … 2-hole hitter!

If he could only bunt, …

Bay Area Steve

January 18th, 2012
3:01 pm

DAP, I’ve not been paying any real attention, but seems to me you ought to let up on key a little bit. Mercy rule, or something. Standing eight count, at least.

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
3:01 pm

keylargo, you posted rankings from 2010 in your 2:39 post. DAP @ 2:52

Here’s a 2010 Chart for the best 25 defensive shortstops. Keylargo@ 2:49

That’s good DAP. You;re finally catching on. (Example of Poor Reading Comprehension.)

Puma

January 18th, 2012
3:03 pm

raleighbravefan – Thanks for reply. I meant enough to do around the Braves spring training complex, or Darkstar as DOB calls it. Not really into the money pit theme parks, at least not until the kids are older.

Puma

January 18th, 2012
3:05 pm

thanks Patio Daddio, just what I was lookin’ fer

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
3:06 pm

Look DAP – this is my very last post on this subject today. I took offense to your claim that Pastornicky would “at least” have an OBP better than Gonzalez while completely ignoring defense – which is far more important at SS. I have posted twice if Pastornicky’s defensive numbers for last year were in MLB, he would rank 103 our of 117 players. You can’t win with that, period.

flange1

January 18th, 2012
3:08 pm

Murph,

I think positions 1, 5, 6, and 8 are probably going to be the same in most folks lineups.

I think we need one of the 3 lefties in the 2 or 3 slot to help separate them from each other.

Bottom line is Heyward has to step up and claim the 2 or 3 spot. If he doesn’t, Fredo is going to have to get creative with the lineup.

Arkansas Transplant

January 18th, 2012
3:10 pm

My guess would be that McCann would bat cleanup followed by Uggla.

flange1

January 18th, 2012
3:12 pm

Sorry Murph, I meant 4 and 5! (Uggla, McCann)

MaconBraves (RIP)

January 18th, 2012
3:12 pm

Report coming out now is that Merl Haggard has pneumonia and is going to remain in the Medical Center of Central Georgia for the time being.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:13 pm

Puma – I knew what you meant…My poor attempt at being a smartarse.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
3:16 pm

keylargo That’s good DAP. You;re finally catching on. (Example of Poor Reading Comprehension.)

no, its an example of a poor argument. why are we talking about 2010 all of the sudden? you for some strange reason bring up belliard, a guy who got limited playing time because he couldnt hit, to explain why SS’s dont need to hit, then you are jumping around dates on belliard, on gonzaez, because you are wrong and trying desperately to defend a weak point.

. I took offense to your claim that Pastornicky would “at least” have an OBP better than Gonzalez while completely ignoring defense

it offended you!?! i gotta tell you, thats kinda weird. im guessing you dont disagree that pastornicky will probably improve on gonzalez’s poor offense? then what are we arguing about? i didnt say anything about defense…my post wasnt about defense…im talking offense. gonzalez was really really bad at it, and the rev will be better, probably.

BAS, he started it.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:17 pm

flange – I would hope that Heyward will step up and bat 3rd. I’d like Chipper in 2 or 6, and Prado in the other slot.

CB

January 18th, 2012
3:18 pm

BAS, ask Soph for a brick wall.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:22 pm

Children, go outside if you’re going to fight.

Someone has to be the weakest position player on the team. It’s entirely possible that this year, that player will be at the SS position. If the Defense is passable, and the rest of the team hits like they should, it will become a minor problem. AGon’s offense would have been fine for a #8 hitter if everyone else had done their job.

Lew

January 18th, 2012
3:22 pm

There werer several factors last year that caused us to finish a game back in the WC, any of which had they been different, would have lead to a playoff berth. Was it a worn out bullpen? Injuires to two key pitchers with rookies at the end of their allowable innings to finish? Was it the poor hitting? A combination? Whatever, one game was the difference we needed.

No, we didn’t make wholesale changes this winter (didn’t really need to) and we have – essentially – the same team, minus a couple of sputtering pieces. We should be able to expect the offense to improve (really can’t get much worse, can it?). Howerver, if all remains exactly the same, one thing HAS changed and should be enough to make the difference – the bullpen.

Gone are the weak links, Proctor, Linebrink and Sherril – replaced by Moylan, Fish, Varvaro, Medlen and Vizcaino (now able to pitch m ore innings. We now have at least three relievers – Medlen, Martinez and Varvaro – capabl of pitching multile innings. We have three LHRP’s. We have much more depth when those in the minors are inclued.

The Bullpen alone should be more than enough to push us over the dege to the playoffs, even if all else remains the same.

flange1

January 18th, 2012
3:22 pm

raleigh,

I would rather have Chipper at 2. I like his bat up in the order (2 or 3)

ncbravesfan90

January 18th, 2012
3:24 pm

Puma,
I will be taking in a week at spring training, as I do every year, and will see the braves play the nationals at Disney then the next day travel down to Lakeland, FL, the training site of the Detroit Tigers, and catch the braves there as well. Lakeland is only about an hour drive away from Disney. The astros train at nearby Kissimee which Kissimmee is only about 10-15 minutes from the Disney park. So yes, most of the other teams training sites are relatively nearby.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
3:24 pm

ralieghbravesfan AGon’s offense would have been fine for a #8 hitter if everyone else had done their job.

i agree gonzalez offensive performance wouldnt have killed the team, if everyone else had hit like they ought. but, i take the position that its not “fine” for a position player to EVER OBP .270, no matter what. could it have been over come by the rest of the team? yes. but i cant condone it for any reason.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
3:25 pm

basically everything Wren has said up to this point was, well, pointless. They have not upgraded the outfield defense. Heyward is absolutely guaranteed a starting position. They have not made any acquisitions and there was no increase in payroll.

TenneseePaul, yeah, I never really took his word for it. It was two days after the season ended and for some reason, his comments just didn’t resonate with me as “must haves”. Not like after 2008 when he said they must upgrade the rotation. That was a glaring as the sun. I think after he cooled off, he realized that most of his guys are just going to have to bounce back – Heyward and Prado, especially. All that said. I still have concerns about who plays LF when Chipper is out. I can’t get behind a platoon of Hinske/Diaz and certainly not Jose Constanza or Luis Durango.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:26 pm

Really, I’m not sure you can go wrong w/ this team 3-7 as long as you don’t put BMac, JHey, and FF bunched together…

I think you need Bourn and Prado at the top though.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:26 pm

^^ That all predicates on Uggla not having a 2011 1st half repeat and JHey not being JHey of 2011 though as well.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
3:29 pm

I think, with fresh legs, Chipper at least starts out the season in his customary 3 spot.

That’s fine, but then someone other than Prado has to be in the #2 spot. Having 3 LH hitters 5-7 is asking for it in the late innings. None of them hit for as much power or get on base as much vs. LHP. I think the best possible lineup is:

Bourn, Chipper, McCann, Uggla, Freeman, Prado, Heyward, Pastornicky, Pitcher

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:29 pm

Because Chipper doesn’t quite have the wheels he used to, I wouldn’t be hitting him behind McCann or Freeman though….In fact, I would probably sandwich Freeman/Uggla/McCann somewhere….either 3/4/5 or 4/5/6 until Heyward gets back into a major groove….

Patio Daddio

January 18th, 2012
3:30 pm

Puma
January 18th, 2012
3:05 pm

thanks Patio Daddio, just what I was lookin’ fer

I am a Spring Training Baseball Rat and I love to drive, especially my bike, so you will see me at as many away games as you will home games……..as long as my schedule permits.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:32 pm

Like I said, you could go w/ MANY different options…

Bourn/Prado/Freeman/Chipper/McCann/Uggla/Heyward/Pastornicky to start and
Bourn/Prado/Heyward/Chipper/Freeman/Uggla/McCann/Pastornicky seems like a good lineup by end of year….

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
3:33 pm

Some have asked for the link again to the site that had leaked photo of new Braves alternate uniform. So here it is again.

(I have it on good authority that these are indeed the new alternate home uniforms, though Braves haven’t made any announcement. They’ll still wear red jerseys on Sundays, but these can be worn in any other home game as decided by the starting pitcher, per usual practice. Think of them as the home version of the road blues, though much better looking in my opinion.)

http://www.sportslogos.net/blog/2012/01/15/braves-new-2012-throwback-alt-leaked/

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:33 pm

flange – I agree on Chipper. If everyone is hitting to their norm, I would probably start with a lineup like this:

Bourn
Chipper
Heyward
Uggla
McCann
FF
Prado
Pastor

I would tweak it if needed.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:35 pm

There are MANY options that would work….but the reason the Braves are not a good bet for the playoffs right now is there are so many IF’s…

IF Bourn hits like he hit on Gm 162 or in Houston
IF Prado returns to form and learns to hit behind Bourn
IF Chipper is healthy
IF Freeman continues hot stroke in Sophomore year
IF Uggla continues 2nd half stretch and doesn’t revert to early 2011
IF BMac can stay healthy and isn’t aging before our eyes
IF JHey plays like 2010 and not 2011
IF Pastornicky can take over at SS and produce
IF the bench can do ANYTHING…ANYTHING at all…which improves from 2011

Many IFs

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:38 pm

DOB-

Too bad the Braves couldn’t work on improving the ballclub a bit though….

Is that the Marketing teams new ploy?

Season ticket fans, we may not have done anything w/ the ballclub that choked away the playoffs, but alas, at least we will take the field in 2012 in style with our new alternate home jerseys —- on sale now at the Clubhouse Store.

^^^Sorry, I just had to.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:38 pm

I like the new alt jersey. I never really liked the red Sunday jerseys, and the dark blue looked like the Mets (ugh!)

Lew

January 18th, 2012
3:39 pm

PTown – There is not but maybe one or two teams (if that) that you couldn’t list as many concerns for as the Braves.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
3:39 pm

Don’t forget the pitching IFs too, PT…

IF JJ can stay healthy
IF Hanson can stay healthy
IF Hudson can recover from back surgery
and so on and so forth

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:41 pm

Murph-

Was just sticking w/ the lineup since that seemed to be the largest downfall of September 2011

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
3:42 pm

I just have a hard time seeing a 40 year old in the middle of the line-up. I love Chipper and is one of my favorite all time Braves but he needs to see what is best for the team and maybe hit down in the line-up like 6th or number 2 maybe. He needs to concede his customary 3 spot to someone who will provide more power and that would most likely be Freeman/Heyward if he hits or Mac. Put Uggs in the 4 spot.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:42 pm

Ptown – IF the Braves are on the right side of just a few of your IFs, we will be better than last year.Add to that an improved bullpen, and probably an improved starting rotation, and you have a formula for success. Most view the “choke” as an abberration, by the way.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:45 pm

BP-

Whats up buddy?

You ready for the Rumble?

And yeah, I agree w/ you….frankly, if Heyward returns to form, I’d be ok w/ batting JHey 5th behind Uggla and in front of either BMac or Chipper….hell, could you imagine having one of those veterans hitting 6th and the other 7th…could get quite a bit done w/ the bottom of the lineup there

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:45 pm

Lew – You beat me to it…I was going to say that we all know that no other team has any IFs, no other team will have injuries, no other team will have players who underperform or make game-costing mistakes. It’s only the Braves who have weaknesses, injuries, and blunders.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:46 pm

Raleigh-

Yeah, it may have been an abberration, however, to do nothing after such a collapse….kinda a head scratcher….especially when you consider how much the other 3 teams in the division have done over the last couple years.

Guess it could be worse, we could still have Lowe :shock:

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:47 pm

Hell, 40’s just a kid.

beekay

January 18th, 2012
3:49 pm

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
3:52 pm

The problem is that there were not that many real options to make a move that improved the team. If you believe/assume that most of the problems were due to injuries, and down years by normally reliable players, then the options for improvement became even more limited. A head scratcher, in my opinion, would be a kneejerk reaction (with resulting bad moves) vs a thoughtful analysis of what was available, and at what cost. I believe Wren’s true goal is always to improve the team when possible/reasonable. I believe the “no major move” was justified.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
3:54 pm

Raleigh-

The point isn’t so much of a kneejerk reaction….no one was asking to trade away the entire roster, BUT cmon….do you really instill confidence in an already diluded season ticket base by doing nothing?!

flange1

January 18th, 2012
3:54 pm

P-town,

I agree it is a head scratcher and then you add the post season comments from both FW and JS (including the letter to season ticket holders) and it turns even more strange.

If I were the Braves, I would have spent a bit more money this year and made an impact with fans by signing Beltran and keeping everyone else.

Spend 97 million this year and then cut it back next year when lots of salaries are coming of the books.

But instead, the Braves promise changes, and then don’t give any changes.

To me they are setting themselves up for a big fan revolt by following this POA.

Makes no sense to me….

Lollygagger

January 18th, 2012
3:56 pm

agreed, beekay. I was hoping that the 74 unis (or a slight variation of them) would be the new home alt uniform for Braves. Not really a big fan of the reported ones- a little plain and boring without the tomahawk. However, I do like the cream color over the bleach white…so it’s not all bad.

flange1

January 18th, 2012
3:56 pm

And I am not a WE’RE DOOMED kind of guy. I like this team and think they have a chance to be really good.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
3:58 pm

Lew: the reason the Braves fell apart in September was a lack of hitting throughout the season. It made many games – win or loss – very close, and compelled Fredi to use, re-use, and abuse the EOF-Venters-Kimbrel troika. If the losses would have been blowouts at least, the three would’ve been spared innings as the back end would’ve had to pick up the slack in those games.

My greatest criticism of Fredi was not allowing starters to go an extra inning in many games in August and September. That also would’ve spared the Bullpen Three multiple innings of work that might have made a difference in the finals weeks. All in all, the lineup’s inability to score runs, put teams away, and spare valuable bullpen innings, was the main reason the Braves collapsed in September. I truly doubt that a worthy LF bat will be acquired anytime within the next two to six months, if at all.

However, P-Town Brave says it best. This team, from one to eight, for the past five-seven seasons, has been a hodge-podge of cobbled parts – used, discarded, damaged, never-was parts. Take away the pitching, and this team has been the 2010 Seattle Mariners during that span. Nothing but a perpetual and terminal batch of hitting if’s.

I say it again: this organization knows NOTHING about hitting, or how to evaluate it as it relates to the construct of a ball club. Sadly, the bad beat will go on in 2012.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
4:01 pm

flange1, i think you are right, though. if the braves stumble in 2012, they have hurt themselves. (i dont think they will, though)

Vinny

January 18th, 2012
4:05 pm

ooo lineups… my turn

Bourn
Heyward
Chipper
Uggla
McCann
Prado
Freeman
Pastornicky

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:05 pm

I DON’T think a move just for the sake of making a move makes sense. If some fans are unhappy with that, so be it. I believe no trade/acquisition trumps a bad move every day….and I believe Wren when he says none of the options made any sense. The “rub” amoung us fans is how much value you place in the September collapse. Some seem to only be focused on that. I prefer to believe that it is much more likely that we will play like we did during the first 5 months of the season.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
4:06 pm

miabchbravesfan Take away the pitching, and this team has been the 2010 Seattle Mariners during that span. Nothing but a perpetual and terminal batch of hitting if’s.

i cant agree with that. the 2010 braves were pretty good on the offensive side, #1 in the league in OBP, and 5th in overall scoring. they didnt slug, but getting on base was an asset.

in 2011 they didnt slug OR get on base.

anyways, they have only been a poor scoring team for 3 out of the last 5-7 years. that would be ‘08, ‘09 and last year.

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
4:09 pm

All that said. I still have concerns about who plays LF when Chipper is out. I can’t get behind a platoon of Hinske/Diaz and certainly not Jose Constanza or Luis Durango

Yeah well, as you said, you heard the man talk and knew he was full of it. So you’ll just have to be excited about the Diaz/Constanza platoon this year.

I should have learned by now that when ever he says “payroll might go up” the entire conversation he just had and the communications two days before and after are all completely false, if not the exact opposite of what is going on.

Go Braves. You’ve saved some money! Woohooo! Do they get another gold star from Selig?

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
4:12 pm

P-Town

Nice to see you’re back…for now. Yeah the Rumble is probably my favorite PPV and I look forward to it every year. Nice to see Punk get so much attention finally as it’s deserved. My kids got a real good laugh out of “get your balls outta your purse” line the other night.

Yeah the team has many concerns and all your thoughts are legitimate ones and I agree many a small shake up would’ve been nice but who knows what teams offered for the likes of an injury prone pitcher and utility guy. Sometimes the best moves are the ones you don’t make as they say. I think an important thing Fredi needs to do is find a line-up that works and stick with it to get some rhythm and stability, not a revolving door but depending on injuries that can change. I still like Freeman 3rd or Heyward if he shows power but I’m just leery of how much he grounds out which could kill big innings while Freeman has shown to be a line drive gap hitter and uses the whole field…kind of like a young Chipper used to do in the 3 hole. Lots of possibilities and if the Rev hits in the 8 spot they could have a pretty potent line-up putting up some crooked numbers.

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
4:13 pm

DOB. That link timed out, but is this image the correct one? New Alt Jersey

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
4:15 pm

Well, I hope so anyway. Those would be very nice.

MFin04

January 18th, 2012
4:17 pm

This arbitration process is nice. Some of the guys suck it up and get million dollar raises. Must be nice!

TennesseePaul

January 18th, 2012
4:18 pm

I like this team and think they have a chance to be really good.

I like the Braves. I don’t think this team will crap out with 90 losses or even a sub .500 record. But, I already saw what this team did last year. It wasn’t that impressive.

flange1

January 18th, 2012
4:21 pm

40 more minutes for Darvish to sign!

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:22 pm

MiaBch – I disagree…one of us will be wrong. 1-8 a hodge podge of cobbled parts? Let’s see…2011 team had the following players who have been alstars, mopst within the last 2 years…Uggla, AGon, Chipper, McCann, Heyward, Bourn, Prado. The following finished 1st or 2nd as ROY – Bourn, Chipper, FF, Heyward. Only ones you could consider past their prime are Chipper and AGon. What the hell are you talking about?

keylargo

January 18th, 2012
4:23 pm

TPaul – I’d like to see one with a Tomahawk under “Braves” on the front to compare with the numbers under the “Braves” jersey. Not saying I’d like one or the other without a comparison.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
4:23 pm

My “MLB: The Show” lineup:

1. Bourn
2. Pastornicky
3. Heyward
4. Uggla
5. BMac
6. Chipper
7. Freeman
8. Prado

Because, in The Show, Pastornicky is going to have a monster rookie season and JHey is going to hit 30 HR.

In The Show.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
4:23 pm

10paul But, I already saw what this team did last year. It wasn’t that impressive.

they only allowed 605 runs last season…thats impressive. they won 89 games only scoring 641 runs. a +36 run differential. thats impressive.

i think we can be fairly sure this tema will win around 90 games again this season. they need a few things to go right, and they are among the best teams in baseball.

MFin04

January 18th, 2012
4:25 pm

“But, I already saw what this team did last year. It wasn’t that impressive.”

Yeh, its one of those situations where they could win the wild card, or they could be a 3rd or 4th place team in the division. Perhaps if they made a significant move or two they could guarantee a wild card birth and playing for the division title. They decided not to go that right and went the cheap route. What can you do?

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
4:26 pm

The mere fact that a 40 year old Chipper Jones will be hitting third – in the absence of a proven 3-hole hitter to supplant him anytime soon – says more about this team not fighting for a playoff this season than anything else could ever say.

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
4:26 pm

Damn Murph that’s bold…you must’ve jacked up The Rev’s offensive numbers.
I’ll stick with:

1. Bourn
2. Prado
3. Freeman
4. Uggla
5.McCann
6. Chipper
7. Heyward
8. The Rev

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:28 pm

I think that if I believed that the team I rooted for had an owner that was cheap, management that was made up of incompetent morons, and a lineup that was a bunch of over the hill, overpaid, underachieving players that would neveer be able to win….think I would look for a team that I could support enthusiastically…but then, that’s just me. I don’t believe those things about this Braves team.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
4:29 pm

I don’t believe those things about this Braves team.

What can you do, man? Haters gonna hate.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
4:30 pm

by the way, the braves only gave up 605 runs, that with derek lowe and his 34 starts last season. dude had an ERA over 5. also, this offseason, the impossible happened, and our bullpen actually looks like it might be BETTER than last year. think about that.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
4:30 pm

But, I already saw what this team did last year. It wasn’t that impressive.

I think a lot of folks are looking at 89 wins and thinking IT WILL be better just cause. But in reality, it actually needs to be better than 85-77(expected win total). Their run differential was not impressive last year and actually wasn’t even when they were peaking in late August. 2010’s team was a monster(an OBP monster) – damn shame Chipper and Prado got hurt.

Phillies are in their own tier, imo. Even without Howard and an aging Utley, Polanco and pitching. I like the Reds this year, a lot, Madson put them over the top. D-Backs and Giants will battle it out in the West. Cardinals made a awesome move in getting Beltran on a two year deal, and even though Lohse, Westbrook isn’t a great 4/5, Shelby Miller is perhaps an even better RH pitching prospect than Julio Teheran, so they have enough in the rotation, imo. Brewers are down without Braun for 50 games + replacing Prince Fielder with Mat Gamel at 1st. Aramis/Alex on the left side is solid, though I still don’t expect them to be more than a 80-85 win team without Braun for a third of the season. We’ll see on the Marlins and Nationals(without Fielder, it’s not a better team than the Braves, no way).

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:30 pm

This arbitration process is nice. Some of the guys suck it up and get million dollar raises. Must be nice!

Considering that they can lead the league in apperances and Saves (Venters and Kimbrel) and still make the league minimum the next season, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that the arbitration process favors the teams a hell of a lot more than the players.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:31 pm

scoots – I see you’re drinking the kool ade again.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:32 pm

Murph just knows that he’s going to keep the Rev “within himself” when he plays The Show…lots of slap hitting and letting J-Hey bring him around.

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
4:34 pm

This line-up of starters has the potential to be pretty damn good to great if all goes well. I really think Walker as the hitting coach will really help this team out this year as he was in Chicago for many years and always received praise from players on the White Sox. The line-up has speed at the top and bottom with Bourn and Rev while, if healthy, the middle of the line-up can drive plenty of runs in. I think we see numbers closer to 2010 than 2011 with this team.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
4:35 pm

also, this offseason, the impossible happened, and our bullpen actually looks like it might be BETTER than last year. think about that.

I’m not sure they’ll be better, but they really shouldn’t have to be. Offense HAS to be better this year. 12th(or 13th, can’t remember) in OBP is really unacceptable for a team with this many talented hitters. Take pitches and make good swings on strikes. Down in the count, foul it off. Run those pitch counts up. Wren is exactly right, they need to be tougher outs this year. Way too talented to not be.

DAP

January 18th, 2012
4:35 pm

efrim, you have to admit though, the braves run prevention was fantastic last year, and they ought to be able to maintain with lowe gone and a better bullpen, even with worse defense.

Bay Area Steve

January 18th, 2012
4:36 pm

“What can you do, man?”

You can criticize, insult, and mock at every opportunity. Time willing. Some of us ain’t so evolved, sir.

OK, I. I ain’t so evolved.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:36 pm

I just have never understood why the “worst case” is considered to be the most likely by so many here. We don’t even need for everything to fall the right way to end up better than last year, when so many things DID go wrong. (with the team we now have).

Mountain Braves Fan

January 18th, 2012
4:37 pm

It will be interesting to see how Michael Bourn does in a full season with the Braves. No doubt he will be gone after 2012, given who his agent is and what he will expect in terms of years and dollars in free agency.

Last year, in arguably his best season, Bourn had a .734 OPS. That is exactly 40 points higher than his career .694 OPS. In that same career-type 2011 season, Bourn struck out 140 times while walking only 53 times. It it just me, or is that not a boat load of strikeouts for somebody whose game should be to beat the ball into the ground, get on base, and use his speed? Was he swinging for the fences (he only had 2 homeruns in 656 at bats), or does he just have a bad eye? Bourn also had a .295 OBP vs. left handers last season (.645 OPS vs. lefties) which doesn’t bode well in a division that features some of the best lefties in the game (Lee, Hamels, etc…).

Don’t get me wrong, Bourn is valuable for his defense, base stealing, and leadoff capabilities. I just wish the Braves had pulled off a trade for a center fielder (Dexter Fowler and Peter Bourjos would be high on the wish list) who would be around for more than one year. Assuming Chipper retires after 2012, the Braves will be looking for two starting outfielders (lf and cf) for 2013.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
4:39 pm

Darvish, Holland, Lewis, Harrison, Feliz as the 5 for Rangers. Feldman and Ogando go to the bullpen. Nathan, Adams, Lowe and Uehara as the back end of the pen. They add Fielder and it’s the favorite once again to get to the World Series.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
4:39 pm

I see you’re drinking the kool ade again.

I reckon. I’ve said my piece on this whole thing, more times than should be necessary. Some people are still caught in the headlights of last September, is all. Stuck in the road and quivering. They’ll prolly just stand there until the 2012 Braves turn ‘em into venison.

But that won’t be my fault. I’ve tried to shoo ‘em off the highway. :-)

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:39 pm

BravePack @4:34 – Wow! I actually agree with everything you just said.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
4:40 pm

you have to admit though, the braves run prevention was fantastic last year, and they ought to be able to maintain with lowe gone and a better bullpen, even with worse defense.

Their infield defense might be downright scary next year. But Bourn in CF for a full year is nice. Bad for Tim Hudson. Good for Brandon Beachy and Tommy Hanson.

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
4:41 pm

I think I’m going to start a season soon with 2012’s line up on The Show to see how it does as I’m getting amped up and there is still a lot of time until the season starts. Besides now that the Pack is out of the playoffs not much to watch…Go Niners.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
4:41 pm

Murph just knows that he’s going to keep the Rev “within himself” when he plays The Show…lots of slap hitting and letting J-Hey bring him around.

Exactly. When I play Pastornicky he will be doing a lot to move Bourn around, set the table for JHey and crew, etc. He won’t be swinging for the fences.

In real life the guy might actually make a decent #2 someday. Above average speed, good OBP, knows his role… works for me.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:42 pm

also, this offseason, the impossible happened, and our bullpen actually looks like it might be BETTER than last year. think about that.

I think our bullpen will be deeper, but I really doubt that it’ll be better. One thing that really, really worries me is the number of games and innings that the Big 3 threw last year. While it’s obvious that two of them wore down at season’s end, what concerns me is the possibility that heavy work in one season can lead to injury in the next season. The most recent example the Braves have had of that is Peter Moylan. In 2007, he pitched 90 innings. In 2008, he pitched 17 OUTS.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:42 pm

scoots – You and me both, buddy.

Wow

January 18th, 2012
4:43 pm

The Nationals, Marlins, Reds, Cardinals (even without Pujols) D’Backs, Giants have all improved. You can’t assume the Braves are going to win 89 games again.

They’re going to have to be far better than last season.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:46 pm

Their infield defense might be downright scary next year. But Bourn in CF for a full year is nice. Bad for Tim Hudson. Good for Brandon Beachy and Tommy Hanson. – Efrim

Pastornicky will obviously be a downgrade from Gonzalez, but where else do you think there will be a huge impact? Chipper wasn’t too spry last year, and there’s a decent chance that he’ll see even less time this year than last. Uggla should be pretty similar to last year I would assume, and there’s no reason to expect regression from Freeman. Outside of SS (which is a big factor), I think we might see a slight increase in defense, especially if Fredi uses Wilson as a late inning defensive replacement on a regular basis (which I doubt he’ll do, but I can dream).

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
4:46 pm

Their infield defense might be downright scary next year

It only has to be adequate, I think. Nothing special. I mean, the only difference is Pastornicky, and if he’s so bad with the leather that it would cause major problems, he won’t be out there, anyway.Let’s face it, they weren’t running a buncha Gold Glovers out there last year, either, and it made not a whit of difference.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:47 pm

Wow – I believe we WILL be better, for all the reasons that I am tired of mentioning. One thing’s for sure, some of us will be right, some wrong, and time will tell.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:49 pm

The Nationals, Marlins, Reds, Cardinals (even without Pujols) D’Backs, Giants have all improved. You can’t assume the Braves are going to win 89 games again.

They’re going to have to be far better than last season.

The Braves should be improved as well. The difference is that their improvements figure to come from existing players developing rather than bringing in new players. Adding depth to the bullpen and getting rid of Derek Lowe helps too.

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
4:51 pm

RC, hopefully Wilson will be used fairly regularly as a defensive replacement for Uggla. I don’t know for sure how mediocre or bad Pastornicky’s defense is but Uggla is among the worst defensive secondbasemen in the game. This is fine, if he hits as expected.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:52 pm

RC – Confirm that.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:52 pm

Philly fans’ Twitter comments make me happy that while Wren hasn’t been “flashy”, he also hasn’t been outright dumb:

“Reminder that Laynce Nix’s career OBP is .288, he got a guaranteed two-year deal, and he’s about to be played ahead of Dom Brown”

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
4:53 pm

I don’t think our defense will be better. Alex Gonzalez was the best defensive SS in baseball last year, or close to it. Chipper is a year older, which concerns me. Uggla and Freeman probably won’t regress. I certainly don’t trust Fredi to put Wilson in late for D. Honestly, all this talk is pointless……

The bats have to be there. And I think they will be. It’s a 90ish win team just like I thought they were last year. They’ll battle right till the end for a WC spot.

ncscoots

January 18th, 2012
4:53 pm

what concerns me is the possibility that heavy work in one season can lead to injury in the next season.

If Venters keeps his arm in one piece after his last two seasons, I think you can rest your worries about him at least. :-) He’ll have proven his arm’s bionic.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:53 pm

Shaun,

Would you play Wilson as a D-replacement over Uggla or Chipper? I personally think he’d be better served to rest Chipper, since an extra 2-3 innings off every couple of days can only help.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
4:54 pm

As flange said and I alluded to….

You can not come out and send out a letter like JS did and sit on your hands and do nothing….

Basically to the season ticket holders thats saying we promised you something, did nothing, kiss my @$$ and like it, and oh by the way, your season ticket fees are due.

RC

January 18th, 2012
4:55 pm

The bats have to be there. And I think they will be. It’s a 90ish win team just like I thought they were last year. They’ll battle right till the end for a WC spot.

Agree with this. Also think it’s a good move for Wren to reserve a little payroll flexibility in case the team can be improved through a trade at the deadline.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
4:55 pm

I just noticed this. So the Mariners and the Expos / Nationals are the only two present MLB teams to never go to a WS?

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
4:55 pm

BP-

Yeah, Im pretty excited….didnt remember if i told you that I got tix to the Rumble so I shall be there live.

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
4:56 pm

Dom Brown needs to be traded. Makes no sense. He’s turning 25 years old and they want him in Triple-A another full year and feel Lance Nix is better as a platoon mate for Mayberry, Jr. Stupid. Amaro Jr. is as overrated a GM as there is.

MFin04

January 18th, 2012
4:57 pm

“Also think it’s a good move for Wren to reserve a little payroll flexibility in case the team can be improved through a trade at the deadline.”

Yep, always good to have that impact bat with 2/5 to 1/3 of the season left, rather than have him from the beginning of the year. :roll:

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:57 pm

I’m not conceeding the East to the Phillies. I believe they are within an injured pitcher or 2 of being unexceptional. I think we are CAPABLE of playing well enough to equal them.Not predicting it, but not dismissing it either.

Lollygagger

January 18th, 2012
4:58 pm

The Nationals, Marlins, Reds, Cardinals (even without Pujols) D’Backs, Giants have all improved. You can’t assume the Braves are going to win 89 games again.

The Giants lost Beltran and Ross and replaced them with Melky Cabrera and Angel Pagan. They also let Keppinger go and I think they are going with a rookie or 2nd year player at short. And that’s considered an improvement?

P'cola Brave

January 18th, 2012
4:58 pm

The Braves are still a solid team regardless of lack of additions. I would prefer they add another bench bat but thats neither here or there. No matter what other teams do the name of the game is can your team stay healthy in the long run. The Marlins made nice moves but added an oft injured SS on a long term deal and their ace has trouble every year making starts. Nationals still have to make that jump and to date haven’t. Cardinals replace Pujols w/ Beltran and get Wainright back. Both nice but serious injury concerns there. Giants are a crap shoot as is just about any team in the west. D-backs were good last year but that division is wide open.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
4:58 pm

Unless the Braves have a lead heading into the 9th inning I do not want to see Wilson anywhere near the field.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
4:58 pm

And does everyone realize how much lesser the WC is now?!

The KEY needs to be winning divisions….with the new rules, the WC just isn’t good enough….what, so you can use up your ace on a 1 game go home playoff and then get to face the Phillies….

No thanks!

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:00 pm

Yep, always good to have that impact bat with 2/5 to 1/3 of the season left, rather than have him from the beginning of the year.

Well, if you’ve got $2 million to spend, it will buy a hell of a lot better hitter for 2/5 to 1/3 of a season than it will for a full season. Not to mention the fact that you really don’t know WHAT you’ll need as the trade deadline approaches, due to injury/underperformance, or simply better players being available then than are available now.

MFin04

January 18th, 2012
5:00 pm

“The KEY needs to be winning divisions”

Well I’m not sure the new playoff rule has been passed, but clearly the Braves ARE trying to win the division by not acquiring anyone. :roll:

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
5:01 pm

Remember guys, we don’t exactly have a great track record in decisive games lately, playoffs or not….

I really don’t want to be playing the WC Game 163 in Turner against ______ team hoping to find the magic just to get blitzed in the Division Series round….

IF Wild Card wasn’t the benchmark before, then why is it now, especially with the rule change?!

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
5:01 pm

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
4:39 pm
BravePack @4:34 – Wow! I actually agree with everything you just said.

That hurts man. Before the whole trade proposal fiasco and misunderstanding I’m pretty spot on with my posts and predictions as far as the Braves and baseball goes. That was just a big misunderstanding with some of the regular posters on here.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:01 pm

Dom Brown needs to be traded. Makes no sense. He’s turning 25 years old and they want him in Triple-A another full year and feel Lance Nix is better as a platoon mate for Mayberry, Jr. Stupid. Amaro Jr. is as overrated a GM as there is.

As a person who likes to see players given the opportunity to succeed, this makes me sad. As a person who likes to see the Phillies do poorly, this makes me happy.

Lollygagger

January 18th, 2012
5:01 pm

…and the Cardinals lost their coach in LaRussa and their heart and soul in Pujols. Yes they still have a good team, but there will be a transition period I believe. And the D-Backs were a one-year lucky wonder. If Nationals get Fielder, they’d be the only team on your list that I’d be worried about.

P'cola Brave

January 18th, 2012
5:02 pm

MFin04

Name an impact bat that can be had or was available this offseason that was actually feasible. Pujols, Fielder, Reyes, Rollins were never happening. Other than that no young hitters were available that would of made a difference at a reasonable price.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
5:03 pm

Six-year contract for Darvish with the Rangers, done deal. Haven’t seen amount of $ yet, but hearing $60-70 mill inc. bonus

MFin04

January 18th, 2012
5:03 pm

“Not to mention the fact that you really don’t know WHAT you’ll need as the trade deadline approaches, due to injury/underperformance, or simply better players being available then than are available now.”

Umm, lets just go ahead and bank on the fact that we are going to need an outfield bat. And it’s absurd to think we can only spend $2 million. At the end of the day, they Braves aren’t going to be able to compete to win the division if they can only obtain $2 million hitters for 30-40% of the season.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:03 pm

MFin04,

Now that we know how much money the Braves were willing to spend, and the pieces that were available for trade, who should they have added in your opinion?

I don’t ask that to be obnoxious, I just really don’t see any moves that could have been made differently.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:04 pm

Umm, lets just go ahead and bank on the fact that we are going to need an outfield bat. And it’s absurd to think we can only spend $2 million. At the end of the day, they Braves aren’t going to be able to compete to win the division if they can only obtain $2 million hitters for 30-40% of the season.

A $2 million hitter for 30% of the season is a $7 million hitter. You just don’t have him as long.

MFin04

January 18th, 2012
5:04 pm

“Name an impact bat that can be had or was available this offseason that was actually feasible.”

Carlos Beltran. And yes he got more than he should have, but I doubt the Braves were even in on him.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
5:05 pm

To all of you who are trashing Wren…what makes you so sure that there were actually moves available that would have improved this team…at a cost we could afford….And why would you assume that Wren would not make such a move if it were available?????

Gotta go.

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
5:06 pm

RC, I’d probably go with Prado at third as the defensive replacement for Chipper and then insert a different leftfielder.

It would all depend on the score and the situation, too. If it’s a really close game, maybe you keep Uggla and/or Chipper in there for insurance runs or in case the opponent ties the game. If it’s a 3- or 4-run lead against a bad offensive team, of course I’d probably want them to get Chipper and Uggla out of there.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:06 pm

If Nationals get Fielder, they’d be the only team on your list that I’d be worried about.

I’m not even that worried about the Nationals. Other than Gonzalez, their entire rotation figures to be on a relatively low innings limit, meaning those innings have to be picked up somewhere. And while Clippard and Storen are good, they won’t be able to cover all of them.

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
5:07 pm

BravePack – Sorry, man. Your OK with me.

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
5:07 pm

…well, on to Prince Fielder for the Rangers.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:09 pm

Shaun,

That’s a pretty good suggestion….Constanza in LF, Prado at 3b, and Wilson at 2b would likely be our optimal defensive setup. If it wasn’t a HUGE lead, however, I’d probably hedge my bets and leave one of Chipper or Uggla in the game, and simply let Wilson fill in for the one I take out. Most nights Chipper would get replaced simply to give him more rest, but if he’s coming off an off day or something I wouldn’t be opposed to subbing Wilson for Uggla after the 7th.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
5:11 pm

The Braves will be victims of their own minor league / young pitching depth. Any team with a bat to trade come deadline time, will be asking for any of the top tier young arms. They will not ask the same of other organizations because many do not have the Braves depth of young arms. Those tradeable players will go to other teams for lesser packages because the Braves will not relinquish those arms – and I, at least, agree with that. That said, the Braves will be placing their entire faith this season on a resurgence from Heyward, a repeat from Freeman, competence from Pastornicky, consistency from Uggla, and injury-free seasons for the oft-injured Prado, Jones, and McCann.

That is A LOT to ask.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:13 pm

Any team with a bat to trade come deadline time, will be asking for any of the top tier young arms. They will not ask the same of other organizations because many do not have the Braves depth of young arms. Those tradeable players will go to other teams for lesser packages because the Braves will not relinquish those arms

The Michael Bourn trade directly contradicts this statement.

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
5:13 pm

raleighbravefan

January 18th, 2012
5:07 pm
BravePack – Sorry, man. Your OK with me.

Cool. Thanks man.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:16 pm

Teams may ask for the top tier young arms the Braves have, this is true. However, if the Braves offer of lesser players is better objectively than what any other team is offering, then the trade will be made with the Braves.

Crazy, unrealistic analogy: If Bill Gates offers you $100 to mow his lawn, and you know he could pay you $1000, you still wouldn’t turn him down to mow his neighbor’s lawn for $50.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
5:16 pm

What’s the over / under on Fielder signing with ANYONE by Jan. 31st?

Lollygagger

January 18th, 2012
5:17 pm

And BOOM goes the dynamite… RC just nailed it at 5:13. Trades with Braves don’t absolutely have to involve any of the Young Guns.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
5:18 pm

BP-

How are you feelin about Jericho and the Cena/Kane feud?

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
5:18 pm

I tend to subscribe to some of the theories I’ve heard that if Fielder was going to end up with the Nationals, he would be a National by now. I think the Rangers are it. It seems like they were just waiting to settle the Darvish thing, make sure they didn’t have to break the bank to an extreme degree.

P'cola Brave

January 18th, 2012
5:20 pm

Mfin04

I agree with that. He’s the only one that would’ve been an upgrade. He has his concerns but I would have loved to have him. Outside him there was nobody.

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
5:20 pm

RC: with Houston, that was a money issue, as well as obtaining a younger, like-position player that they liked. The Braves have VERY few young bats to trade – and no young OF bats to trade from their minors. Also, we have seen many trades in the past several years where lesser packages were accepted from other teams for the same player that they asked the moon and stars from you for. Your Gates analogy is simplistic and flawed, sorry.

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
5:21 pm

Can you imagine that Ranger lineup w/ Fielder in it….

My God…..

I think those boys could score more runs opposite hand than the Braves can normally

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
5:22 pm

Hey, maybe if we give the Astros some laced PB cups, theyve give us another useful piece :lol:

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:23 pm

Also, we have seen many trades in the past several years where lesser packages were accepted from other teams for the same player that they asked the moon and stars from you for.

Name one.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:25 pm

The Braves have VERY few young bats to trade – and no young OF bats to trade from their minors. – MiaBeachBraves

Now THAT is a different issue, and a legitmate concern. But that wouldn’t be the Braves not being able to make a trade even though they’ve got the best offer….that would be the Braves not having the pieces to make the best offer without including their stud pitchers. Totally different situation.

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
5:28 pm

RC, I wouldn’t be surprised to see the Braves make a move for a more solid outfielder that can play a more serviceable leftfield than their current options. In fact, I would sort of expect it. Rick Ankiel? Ryan Spilborghs?

P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™

January 18th, 2012
5:29 pm

Shaun-

:lol:

Is that some sort of early April Fools joke?!

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:31 pm

Shaun,

I’m not saying they shouldn’t do that, but I don’t see how they are going to have the roster space to carry that player, unless you believe that they will dump Diaz (I don’t think they will, though maybe they should). Assuming 12 pitchers, the roster is:

1. McCann
2. Freeman
3. Uggla
4. Pastornicky
5. Chipper
6. Prado
7. Bourn
8. Heyward
9. Ross
10. Hinske
11. Wilson
12. Diaz
13. Constanza

After typing that out I guess they could keep Constanza in the minors, but based on their financial situation and the quality of the players left on the market, I’m betting they sit tight until at least spring training, and likely until opening day.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:33 pm

While I’m not a very big Constanza fan, he does have some serious Bonifacio potential….without the multi-position ability and the decent walk rate. Come to think of it, he’s not like Bonifacio much at all.

Shaun

January 18th, 2012
5:34 pm

RC, I could see them dumping Diaz, although it’s probably not likely. Either that or sending Constanza back down. I’m not sure if he has options but, if not, I could see them not worrying with it and trying to get him through waivers in order to send him down.

RC

January 18th, 2012
5:35 pm

The thing that makes me the happiest about the team going into this year is no Linebrink, no Sherril, and no Proctor. I know that Linebrink and Sherril weren’t terrible, but that was money that could have helped a lot more in other areas, and they took roster spots from guys at AAA that weren’t much worse than them (if any). As for Proctor, he was a waste of roster space. Although he did have the funniest “hit” I’ve ever seen in the Pittsburgh game.

Just Pat

January 18th, 2012
5:41 pm

RC

Totally agree with you about no Linebrink, Sherril and Proctor. I cringed every time they came into a game.

BravePack

January 18th, 2012
5:42 pm

MiaBchBravesFan

January 18th, 2012
5:11 pm
The Braves will be victims of their own minor league / young pitching depth. Any team with a bat to trade come deadline time, will be asking for any of the top tier young arms. They will not ask the same of other organizations because many do not have the Braves depth of young arms. Those tradeable players will go to other teams for lesser packages because the Braves will not relinquish those arms – and I, at least, agree with that. That said, the Braves will be placing their entire faith this season on a resurgence from Heyward, a repeat from Freeman, competence from Pastornicky, consistency from Uggla, and injury-free seasons for the oft-injured Prado, Jones, and McCann.

That is A LOT to ask.

Take it easy chicken little. It’s a lot to ask when you believe these things to be anamolies or asking too much from a player. Heyward has always put up great numbers up until last year where he was injured and it made an impact plus he didn’t adjust…as a successful player at every level up until last year I’m sure he has something to prove to himself and all the doubters and I just bet he worked real hard to do that this year and will. Freeman is going to be a star in this league. He put up ROY numbers last year and if it wasn’t for a unbelievable rookie year from Kimbrel he would’ve been. I expect Freeman to adjust to pitchers who may adjust to him and never going through a sophmore slump. In fact, I expect him to improve on last years numbers. Mac and Prado aren’t as injury prone as bad as many on here claim them to be. Those injuries were a fluke and when healthy we know what kind of numbers they are capable of. I expect The Rev to put up better numbers than Gonzo did even if he does struggle but he adds a speed element to the bottom of the line up which will help. The only question is how much time Chipper will miss and that’s a crapshoot.

The biggest thing is last year left a really bad taste in the mouths of these players and I can almost bet that each and every one of them want to make up for it and workes their azzes off to make sure it doesn’t ever happen again. Remember this team was one of the best in baseball before the collapse started and all those unfortunate circumstances that occured in 2011.

jake

January 18th, 2012
5:49 pm

Is ss pastornicky related to miss pastornicky on 2 1/2 men?

Jbailz

January 18th, 2012
5:49 pm

DOB – I sure hope you caught the Southland premier last night. I absolutely love that show!

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:21 pm

I look forward to the quick drive up to Dallas to see Darvish pitch (and hopefully Fielder rake).

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:29 pm

Slow time on the ol blog… I guess I should do something to entertain myself…

nolie nolie bo bolie
banana fana fo folie
me my mo molie
nolie

lew lew bo boo
banana fana fo foo
me my mo moo
lew

Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)

January 18th, 2012
6:29 pm

2012 is gonna be damn interesting for sure.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:31 pm

None of this matters much as the world is going to end this year… so, I guess whoever has the best record on the day the world ends is automatically the final baseball champion.

Makes jumping out to a good start all the more important.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:34 pm

It also makes the fact that the Braves didn’t add anyone to an expensive, long term deal all the more upsetting. Why not sign Pujols to a 10 year deal? It’s really one a 1 year deal, if that.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:34 pm

Makes me laugh that Lowe will spend his final moments in an Indians uniform. So fitting.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:39 pm

The only things that will survive the coming Apocalypse? Cockroaches and the 4 year old.

She will rule the Earth, leading her cockroach army across the plains.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:41 pm

Don’t believe me? Watch this movie: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GZ2ZcmMxehk

It’s either a brilliant viral marketing campaign for War of the Worlds 2 or we’re all about to be eaten for real by ET. For real.

Murph

January 18th, 2012
6:42 pm

Either way, Tom Cruise is screwed.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
6:45 pm

Jbailz, I did and mentioned it last night after midnight. Terrific show (we’re talking about Southland)

Richard

January 18th, 2012
6:58 pm

DOB,

Wow you still have this blog rockin and rollin! Awesome! I haven’t been on in a few years because I have been through so many challenges in my life with health and family issues. You’re the best. I LOVE your blogs and hope you continue writing them for all us fans for a long time to come.

I have watched some Braves games of course, but with medical expenses and other stuff going on I just havent had the chance to get internet until a few days ago. Speaking of those Braves, it was not easy watching them fall apart so quick late last year, but this game can be cruel and just strange sometimes. Looking forward to watching them this season more than I have in a while and hopefully post more here too.

God Bless, everyone

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 18th, 2012
7:08 pm

Good To See Petey Pablo on the Braves Page instead of Jackie Wilson…

Is It Me or Is It FUB’R that Jackie Wison will make nearly as much as Petey Pablo This year???

Tomahawkin (The Godfather)

January 18th, 2012
7:21 pm

@Richard…

Welcome Back Dude…!

cabravesfan

January 18th, 2012
7:25 pm

Tomahawkin-

Wilson will probably make more. Moylan’s deal is a minor league contract that will pay him a pro-rated $1M salary for time in the majors, if I remember correctly. Since it’s unlikely he will be ready for Opening Day, he’s not making all of it.

David O'Brien

January 18th, 2012
7:28 pm

Here’s better link for the alternative home uniform, where you can see the difference between the jersey and regular home jersey, particularly the difference in color (it’s off-white or creme color)

http://www.sportslogos.net/blog/2012/01/15/braves-new-2012-throwback-alt-leaked/

Efrim

January 18th, 2012
7:41 pm