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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,779 comments Add your comment
Patio Daddio
January 18th, 2012
10:37 am
Viz just needs stamina, muscle memory and the head for being a starter. Talent and 4 nasty pitches is always nice
Efrim
January 18th, 2012
10:37 am
Looking at your bullpen at 9:02am, are you proposing that the Braves practice catch and release with Robert Fish?
Hillbilly, I don’t think he sticks. Way too many arms in Triple-A and at the major league level. Unless they reverse course and put Viz in Triple-A, which I don’t see happening. I suppose there is a chance he beats out Varvaro, but I liked what I saw from him last year.
VaBravesFan
January 18th, 2012
10:38 am
Efrim
Hasn’t Vizciano already had arm or shoulder surgery already as well?
TennesseePaul
January 18th, 2012
10:39 am
Be real nice to see Prado play in 150 games this year…..
I’d rather say “Be real nice to see Prado play well in 150 games this year…”
I like the guy, but if he’s going to stink this year, it isn’t going to be nice to watch it for 150 games
Ray
January 18th, 2012
10:39 am
Couch, you are going to be hard pressed to find a former player say anything negative about Bobby Cox. Players simply loved playing for the guy because apparently he was straight up with them and always had their backs.
Efrim
January 18th, 2012
10:42 am
Hasn’t Vizciano already had arm or shoulder surgery already as well?
Partially torn Ulnar Collateral Ligament in summer of 2010. He rehabbed it and it didn’t seem to bother him in 2011. He may need TJ surgery at some point in his career, but I don’t think starting would increase those chances. Similar thing happened to Wainwright in 2003(?), I believe. It went seven or eight years later.
Ray
January 18th, 2012
10:44 am
I personally do not see Prado stinking this year. I think he will play well and hopefully stay healthy.
Shaun
January 18th, 2012
10:45 am
DOB, Gonzalez was a corner-outfielder with little defensive value that lacked longevity while playing in a high offensive environment. Add to that the PED stuff and I think that’s why he falls short by a fairly significant margin.
McGriff is in a similar boat, except he had longevity and no PED suspicion. He just lacked a lot of big-time, MVP-type seasons.
Venice Jim
January 18th, 2012
10:52 am
Curtis Pride also played point guard for William and Mary when he was not playing baseball for us…
Patio Daddio
January 18th, 2012
10:53 am
PED=Poster Enhanced Drama
Shaun
January 18th, 2012
10:54 am
well, I’ve tried to edit a post about 4-5 times and it won’t let me post. I’m not sure what non-swear words are not allowed. Ridiculous.
McFann O O o
January 18th, 2012
10:55 am
haggard not to mention putting to rest those “McCann-Twinkies” references.
Ha! That’d be nice…doubt if it would ever happen:
“He was a Top-5 MVP candidate—big deal!! He could finish first if he would lay off the Twinkies!!”
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
11:00 am
The prohibited word is “Shaun”
Couch Tater
January 18th, 2012
11:01 am
Couch, you are going to be hard pressed to find a former player say anything negative about Bobby Cox.
I really wasn’t looking for that. I happened on a discussion about different players in media room, good and bad. The discussion just peaked my curiosity about Curtis Pride and whatever happened to him.
Efrim
January 18th, 2012
11:05 am
If Prado has a strong year and stays healthy, and Chipper decides to retire, I’d really like to see a long term deal get worked out for Prado to be our third baseman over the next few years. I’ve said before that Howie Kendrick’s deal with the Angels is a decent comparison for what to expect Prado to get: Four years, 33.5 million. But that is only is Prado turns in a strong, healthy year. I think something like 6.5 million in 2012(his last arbitration eligible season) plus at least a three year, 24 million dollar extension. I think that’s fair for both sides.
Murph
January 18th, 2012
11:07 am
well, I’ve tried to edit a post about 4-5 times and it won’t let me post. I’m not sure what non-swear words are not allowed. Ridiculous.
Change “toupee” to “rug” and see if that works…
Efrim
January 18th, 2012
11:08 am
Wow, I didn’t know Moylan was from Western Australia. Only city I know there is Perth – which is suppose to be an awesome place.
ncscoots
January 18th, 2012
11:13 am
Justified blistered. Charred at the edges. Raylan’s move at the showdown with Fletcher just was…perfect. An Elmore Leonard moment to the hilt.
Murph
January 18th, 2012
11:21 am
Perth, birthplace of Luc Longley, the big redhead
CB
January 18th, 2012
11:22 am
scoots, Poppy Montgomery had a few perfect moves last night also.
ncscoots
January 18th, 2012
11:27 am
scoots, Poppy Montgomery had a few perfect moves last night also.
Yes, scheduling is now a problem. Poppy and Raylan opposite. Though, truthfully, I’m not that big a fan of Poppy’s show; just Poppy.
Fish Bisch
January 18th, 2012
11:29 am
D Lowe will rebound this year and we’ll be wishing he was pitching for us in no time. Especially come September. Lowe is the best big game pitcher ever.
Hillbilly
January 18th, 2012
11:35 am
scoots and CB,
I give Winona the award for the most perfect move of the night. Oh My.
Don
January 18th, 2012
11:37 am
WHY should anyone BE WORRIED?
AFTER ALL:
(1) Only four out of our five Starting Pitchers are coming off injuries. And everyone knows that after a serious injury, a Pitcher always returns to being great.
(2) And we have a Third Baseman who was a great, great hitter in the past – to hit in the 3rd spot in the batting order even though he no longer produces like a 3rd place hitter – And he can play Part Time – Even though he is not good defensively.
(3) And we have a Shortstop who we know can — Woops — Who there is no reason to think can be productive offensively — and there is no guarantee that he will be really adequate defensively.
(4) And we have a Second Baseman who has some power but does not have an adequate Batting Average or On Base Average — and is barely “get by” defensively.
(5) And we have a Right Fielder who – there is no real reason to think will be productive offenisvely enough to really be a fourth or fifth outfielder.
(6) And we have a Left Fielder (assuming it is Prado) who I feel will probably rebound to once again having great offensive production — but then who will back up Third Base. (Or even worse, we may trade Prado for a Left Fielder who will not be nearly as good a hitter as Prado.)
(7) And if some of our four injured Starting Pitchers do not return to being great, we still have a wealth of additional young Pitching talent — And of all the Starting Pitchers we have had in the 6 or 7 years since Leo left as Pitching Coach, at least one or two of them have not ended up being injured.
SO WHY IN THE WORLD WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT THE BRAVES WILL NOT WIN THE W.S. OR AT LEAST WIN THE DIVISION OR THE WILD CARD.
Bayou Brave
January 18th, 2012
11:41 am
I like the Braves chances.
David O'Brien
January 18th, 2012
11:45 am
Haggard: I was just about to link to the Merle illness story, wasn’t sure if you’d heard. Didn’t realize you had bought tickets and were at the show (well, before it was cancelled). Sad to hear that, man. Hopefully nothing too serious. Things like this happen to touring artists, not to mention ones in their 70s. I’m sure he’ll recover just fine.
Here’s the AP story, if you haven’t seen it: http://www.accessatlanta.com/atlanta-music/promoter-merle-haggard-hospitalized-1306711.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm
David O'Brien
January 18th, 2012
11:49 am
Wren on Hanson and how he’s doing this offseason with the shoulder-strengthening work, etc.: “He feels great, doing really well. Our expectations are he comes into spring training ready to go.”
David O'Brien
January 18th, 2012
11:53 am
Frank Wren on Tim Hudson’s recovery from November back surgery and whether he’ll be ready Opening Day: “It’s too early to know at this point. Everything is going well, he just may be — as we always considered a possibility — he may be slightly behind the other guys. Or he may not be. Or, we may choose to be a little more careful with him in spring, depending on how he responds. So there’s some unknowns there, but it’s going well so far. Quite frankly that’s the beauty of having our pitching depth — if we need to slow him down or whatever the case may be, we have the personnel to allow that to happen.”
keylargo
January 18th, 2012
11:58 am
Yes, scheduling is now a problem. Poppy and Raylan opposite.
Scoots, I know you’re old and set it your ways. Heck, some of my best friends are old and set in their ways, not to mention I am too, but let me make a recommendation. GET A TIVO! It will change the way you watch TV and you can watch an hours worth in 45 minutes! That means you can watch 4 hours of programs you would have missed in 3 hours.
That is a technology worth having.
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
12:01 pm
DOB – Why would you believe Wren, when Don makes so much sense?
keylargo
January 18th, 2012
12:07 pm
“He was a Top-5 MVP candidate—big deal!! He could finish first if he would lay off the Twinkies!!”
Who said that McFann? They sound like they could be an ally of mine.
Or was it you who finally saw the light?
ChattTownBrian (CTB)
January 18th, 2012
12:08 pm
Pitching depth is great to have. I really like what I saw from Delgado and Minor. Teheran looked like he wasn’t quite ready, but then again he could’ve been tired by the time he was brought up. Medlen also looked sharp in the little bit we saw of him.
Just hate our bench and everybody has to feel worried Chipper could go down at any point. Then what? Who covers Prado in LF?
Heyward looked awful trying to pull everything and injuries with him worry you. They got to have him going as I am expecting some struggles for FF in his 2nd full season as pitchers make adjustments on him. He has a bad habit of swinging early and often, that’s something I see them exposing more on him.
We’ll see.
McFann O O o
January 18th, 2012
12:13 pm
Keylargo—
Wasn’t me…and that wouldn’t so much being “seeing the light” as it would be “looking at the light with blinkers on”…
Anyway, here ya go—scroll down to the sixth “paragraph” under Notes:
http://www.foxsportssouth.com/01/13/12/Braves-Notebook-Atlanta-mourning-loss/landing_braves.html?blockID=645516&feedID=3564
Enjoy.
Nope
January 18th, 2012
12:15 pm
Remember when DOB actually used to interact with people on the blog and provide information here? That was fun.
I’m sure many people enjoy seeing his posts twice, now, though – once in the righthand toolbar when he posts them on Twitter and once in the blogfeed, when he reposts them as comments.
Van the Man
January 18th, 2012
12:18 pm
DOB: I went to see Merle Haggard last nite too, macon.com is now reporting that he’s in the cardiac unit in Macon.
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
12:19 pm
Chatt – One would like to think that the combination of getting healthy, and working with the new hitting coaches would get Heyward back on track. If so, he will be great, and it will be HUGH (as Donald Trump would say).
keylargo
January 18th, 2012
12:20 pm
McFann – I didn’t see the Twinkie quote but I did see this which is encouraging.
Catcher Brian McCann looks even trimmer; he’s sticking to the healthy-eating regimen he started last offseason. The strained oblique that hampered his offense in September has healed.
McFann O O o
January 18th, 2012
12:23 pm
Keylargo—
Yes…that’s the one I was talking about…
Patio Daddio
January 18th, 2012
12:33 pm
Don has just won my PED AWARD for Poster Enhanced Drama and the award is here. Others may want to avoid the award by reading this and chill
http://ezinearticles.com/?How-To-Stop-Worrying-About-Everything:-4-Awesome-Tips&id=6343217
Murph
January 18th, 2012
12:33 pm
Catcher Brian McCann looks even trimmer; he’s sticking to the healthy-eating regimen he started last offseason.
Does taking the creme filling out of the Twinkie really constitute “healthy eating”?
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
12:34 pm
Trump would say HUGE, not hugh.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
12:34 pm
Hey hey everybody!
Thought I’d drop in and see how everyone is doin
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
12:36 pm
Patio – Some here ENJOY negative feelings…they revel in them….they live for them.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
12:40 pm
Murph-
Not if it means you’re just saving it for later?
That beard isn’t just for show
Murph
January 18th, 2012
12:46 pm
What’s up PT? How are the new floors coming along?
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
12:46 pm
Patio – Don will appreciate the recognition. His posts really are saying “look at me, look at me, PLEASE LOOK AT ME”!
keylargo
January 18th, 2012
12:48 pm
he’s sticking to the healthy-eating regimen he started last offseason.
There was a tiny asterisk on that quote. I looked it up and it said does not apply to Feb thru December.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
12:50 pm
Murph-
Not too bad….
Was deathly ill on Sunday over the weekend so I couldn’t completely finish, but I just have a couple reducers and need to cut and place the quarter round down and then I’ll be done….
I have to take back a rug….convinced my significant other that an 8×10 would pretty well cover up the great job I did so we’re gonna take that back to Home Depot and get a 5×7 and then get the furniture back in the living room and out of our dining room….
She hasn’t been incredibly happy about eating in my man cave on tv trays for the last week
Patrick
January 18th, 2012
12:52 pm
And we have a Shortstop who we know can — Woops — Who there is no reason to think can be productive offensively — and there is no guarantee that he will be really adequate defensively
Right, cause Alex Gonzalez had such a great offensive year last year and even the year before after his trade to the Braves. I never saw so many Strikeouts and GIDP’s in key situations in a single season before by 1 player.
I really believe his lack of offensive is probably one of the biggest reasons that we missed the playoffs, but it never gets talked about cause most of the blame fell on the injuries and slumps, etc…
Lew
January 18th, 2012
12:57 pm
raleighbraves – Some enjoy their negativity? Hell – there are quite a few here who are like some version of a solar panel that absorbs negativity to produce the negative power they need to exist.
Murph
January 18th, 2012
12:57 pm
To be fair, check out AGon’s September numbers… he was one of the few Braves who actually hit a little in the final month.
brian
January 18th, 2012
12:57 pm
largo – in fairness to the guys it has to be hard to eat healthy on the road. With their food allowances, they are eating out the whole time. Don’t exactly see them doing the Subway Diet or just getting a salad with dressing on the side, etc
brian
January 18th, 2012
12:58 pm
AGon was a big disappointment offensively from a trade standpoint in a trade that had to be made. We expected more from AGon and I am sure he expected more production from himself
DAP
January 18th, 2012
1:05 pm
alex gonzalez’s line last year was .241/.270/.372, for a .642 OPS. its only that good because he had a great great at the end.
im confident pastornicky can improve on that line, at least in the OBP category.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
1:06 pm
DAP-
He could come in and hit nothing but singles and improve on that OPS
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
1:07 pm
.642 OPS is Gregor Blanco territory
Lew
January 18th, 2012
1:09 pm
Re: Pastornicky’s defense – first, I’ve heard it was mainly throws that were his problem – likely to be at least partially dealt with by having Freeman as his first baseman. Second – check out error totals of almost all Braves’ players coming up through the minors -especially at AA and lower where the fields are less than – shall we say, Ed Mangan works of art. The fields suck, the errors mount.
And let’s not discount the couple of months work he’s put in with Jack Wilson – who despite one of the lowest OBP’s I recall ever seeing, is a great defensive ss.
ALbravesfan
January 18th, 2012
1:10 pm
Hell I ain’t negative I just tell the truth. Braves got no hitting but chipper and mcann and Uggla is one of them all or nothing types you can’t count on most of the time. Now freemen and Heyward are young kids and I can’t judge them just yet. Prado is pretty good but he ain’t really a outfielder.
Now you got Huddy with back hurting and big red is coming off injury. What in the world they gonna do if they ain’t themselves. If they hurtin then they won’t be thereself.
DAP
January 18th, 2012
1:12 pm
p-town .642 OPS is Gregor Blanco territory
no sir, thats under blanco territory.
by the way, gregor blanco got on base at a pretty good rate in the majors. to bad its really the only thing he does well.
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
1:14 pm
I see the sky is falling in AL.
ncscoots
January 18th, 2012
1:14 pm
Scoots, I know you’re old and set it your ways.
Yes, but don’t worry, I have DVR.
Remember, I was a technology geek in the working world. I’m not always quite the dinosaur I may appear to be, LOL.
ALbravesfan
January 18th, 2012
1:14 pm
I’m glad Alex Gonzalez is gone. I got tired of watching that sumbitch strikeout or pop up a out. He’s a good glove man but he just bad attitude and can’t hit his own turds in the toilet.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
1:16 pm
AL-
Yes, but Alex won the team helmet toss two years running….
Wonder who takes the crown in 2012
Lew
January 18th, 2012
1:16 pm
Uh, why would he be swinging the bat in the commode? Or in the bathroom for that mater? Must be an Alabama thing?
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
1:16 pm
Scoots-
They didn’t mean dinosaur….
They meant fossil
DAP
January 18th, 2012
1:17 pm
i think people underestimate how much gonazlez hurt us offensively. because he plays good defense, his .270 OBP is kinda over looked.
but gonzalez was SO terrible at the plate is kind hard to wrap your brain around…he got the 3rd most plate appearances of ANYONE on the team, though he had BY FAR the lowest OBP. i mean, its not even close.
haggard
January 18th, 2012
1:18 pm
David O’Brien
Thanks so much for the link to the Merle story. You know, back in 2009 he lost the upper lobe of his right lung due to the removal of a tumor and bounced back in great shape following six weeks or so to get his wind back. But–as you say–if you mention “virus” and “singer” in the same sentence, that someone is in a bit of harm’s way. However, I just dialed up a friend there in Macon with his organization and they’re saying his stay is precautionary. I’ll look forward to seeing him perform in April.
DAP
January 18th, 2012
1:19 pm
AL bravesfan He’s a good glove man but he just bad attitude and can’t hit his own turds in the toilet.
interesting word picture…is that a common analogy in alabama?
ncscoots
January 18th, 2012
1:19 pm
his .270 OBP is kinda over looked
Less “overlooked”, than “averted the eyes”.
ALbravesfan
January 18th, 2012
1:20 pm
Thats a saying Lew. You know what I meant.
David O'Brien
January 18th, 2012
1:20 pm
DOB – Why would you believe Wren, when Don makes so much sense? — raleighbravesfan
Good point. If I’d just seen that comment, I couldn’t avoided wasting time for all of us.
haggard
January 18th, 2012
1:20 pm
raleighbravefan
“I see the sky is falling in AL”–raleighbravefan.
LOL !
Lew
January 18th, 2012
1:21 pm
Not so sure he’d know they would be that hard if he hadn’t tried it himself.
David O'Brien
January 18th, 2012
1:21 pm
Remember when DOB actually used to interact with people on the blog and provide information here? That was fun.
I’m sure many people enjoy seeing his posts twice, now, though – once in the righthand toolbar when he posts them on Twitter and once in the blogfeed, when he reposts them as comments. — Nope
I’m sure interacting with you always is fun. How could it not be? The good-naturedness just glows from your sentences.
ALbravesfan
January 18th, 2012
1:22 pm
DAP why don’t you come down here and find out. You probably one of them wearing his britches down half off your ass ain’t you. More than enough of me to take care of you and whoever you bring I promise you.
ALbravesfan
January 18th, 2012
1:25 pm
Lew your come on down here to. Big mouth ain’t you.
Mountain Braves Fan
January 18th, 2012
1:29 pm
Alex Gonzalez’s .270 OBP was the fifth lowest among all major league hitters with at least 400 at bats. It was just painful to watch him hit.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
1:29 pm
Nothing like a little blogger on blogger violence to get through lunch break right?
Tim Hudson (Braves) — BaseballMoves.com
January 18th, 2012
1:30 pm
[...] Source: ajc.com [...]
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
1:31 pm
ALbrave – A little testy today, I see. Did you get enough fiber in your diet?
haggard
January 18th, 2012
1:33 pm
We’re often left lamenting the Liberty factor and hoping for a change to an Arthur Blank or Mark Cuban individual ownership. But DOB’s comment earlier this morning dovetails nicely with some facts Thomas Boswell addressed concerning the Nationals and their bevy of Boras clients:
“Just four teams had payrolls over $140 million in 2011: the Yankees, Red Sox, Phillies and Angels. Over the past three years, just nine teams have averaged more than $100 million in payroll. Even hugely popular teams such as the Cardinals and Giants aren’t among them.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/nationals/prince-fielder-deal-could-cement-nationals-scott-boras-marriage-for-better-or-worse/2012/01/12/gIQAVa4BwP_story.html
Patio Daddio
January 18th, 2012
1:33 pm
Who wants to SPONSOR PEC – Poster Enhanced Charm. Im tied up with PED
Murph
January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm
Lew your come on down here to. Big mouth ain’t you.
I’m sorry, but does anyone here speak jive?
Sopheee
January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm
Internet tough guy. Cute.
ALbravesfan
January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm
Yeah I get plenty of fiber. I don’t no what that means but fiber is healthy and I try to be healthy. More a meat and potatoes feller though.
keylargo
January 18th, 2012
1:34 pm
In 1995 – 97, Rafael Belliard had an OBP of .255, .179, .219.
The Braves won 292 games, went to the World Series twice and NLCS once.
Defense, not offense, is imperitive for a SS.
DAP
January 18th, 2012
1:35 pm
ALbravesfan, everyone is 7 feet tall on the internet.
boy, you are sensitive. i didnt even say anything disparaging! just though it was an interesting analogy. listen, i like it. keep it coming.
David O'Brien
January 18th, 2012
1:35 pm
Nothing like a little blogger on blogger violence to get through lunch break right? — P-Town
Fortunately that’s as close to “violence” as 99.9 percent of the folks here have been in the past decade or three, or ever will be again. Never quite understood the rationale of threats made in a blog comment screen to someone hundreds or thousands of miles away. The act of clicking that “submit reply” button presumably is a substitute for a left jab followed by a right uppercut.
George
January 18th, 2012
1:36 pm
TennesseePaul
January 18th, 2012
10:39 am
Be real nice to see Prado play in 150 games this year…..
I’d rather say “Be real nice to see Prado play well in 150 games this year…”
I like the guy, but if he’s going to stink this year, it isn’t going to be nice to watch it for 150 games
************************************************************************
TP Are you down on MARTIN, thinking he will not play well? Remember he was playing hurt last year, I think he will be back to the real MARTIN this year, just hope F WREN does not trade him.
P-Town Brave© Its Clobberin' Time!™
January 18th, 2012
1:38 pm
Murph-
That may not be jive, but I do feel like I just stepped into a scene from Deliverance….
I’m waitin for him to say “you got a purty mouth”
haggard
January 18th, 2012
1:42 pm
DOB @1:35 LOL!
Lew
January 18th, 2012
1:43 pm
Well, at least my big mouth has a grasp of the English language.
Lew
January 18th, 2012
1:45 pm
raleighbraves – Ain’t no fiber in gator meat or armadillo.
haggard
January 18th, 2012
1:47 pm
Ned Beatty: “Mr., I like the way you wear that hat”.
Gas station attendant / mountain man:”You don’t know nothin”.
Seldom quoted line from the movie Deliverance.
DAP
January 18th, 2012
1:53 pm
keylargo In 1995 – 97, Rafael Belliard had an OBP of .255, .179, .219.
The Braves won 292 games, went to the World Series twice and NLCS once.
Defense, not offense, is imperitive for a SS
belliards PAs those years: ‘95- 192 ‘96- 148 ‘97- 77.
a combined 417 PAs in 3 seasons. alex gonzelez had 590 last season alone. your argument is flawed, because bellaird was never a starter on any team he ever played on. cause, you know…short stops have to hit, to.
raleighbravefan
January 18th, 2012
1:57 pm
Lew – Ah, yes…armadillo…or as they call it in Alabama, possom on the half shell.
haggard
January 18th, 2012
1:59 pm
keylargo @ 1:34
That’s some sound reasoning indeed. Ozzie Smith hit .262 with a whopping 28 home runs, though he did steal almost 600 bases as well. Mr. Larkin looks almost in compariosn.
beekay
January 18th, 2012
1:59 pm
EOF=game
JV= set
CK= match or
EOF=good morning
JV=Good afternoon
CK=good night
haggard
January 18th, 2012
2:00 pm
“Mr. Larkin looks almost Ruthian in comparison.”
DAP
January 18th, 2012
2:09 pm
haggard That’s some sound reasoning indeed
you ight want to check my 1:53 post. ozzie smith was not a heavy hitter, but kept a good OBP throughout his career. not comparable at all to alex gonzalez, or to the life time utility player rafael belliard,