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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,779 comments Add your comment
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
What about amphetamines and doctoring baseballs?
I am a proud former scuffer. Hitters are the enemy. You use every weapon at your disposal.
What about consorting with gamblers?
I am a proud former bettor. Some of my best friends were bookies, and they turned out to not be actual spawn of the devil.
What about drinking too much and playing hung over?
I am a proud former tippler. This is no different than playing through any other tweak, ding, or nick. If you can’t play hurt, turn in your leotard.
JTH
January 17th, 2012
3:43 pm
Murphy not being in the Hall of Fame is more of a reflection of just how ignorant these so called experts are than of Dale himself. The “Steroid Era” and the fawning over the cheaters by these same writers at that time proves it.
David O'Brien
January 17th, 2012
3:44 pm
Haggard, are you going to see Hag tonight? I wish I’d known about that show before now, would’ve planned on going.
Efrim
January 17th, 2012
3:44 pm
keithlaw keithlaw
The Braves still suck.
Murph
January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
In fact, it’s sort of outrageous to suggest someone like Bonds wasn’t a Hall of Fame caliber player without PED’s.
Some bad choices go on to haunt people for the rest of their lives, no matter how great a person they were before making that bad choice.
That’s life.
Efrim
January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
Whoa…. How did that Keith Law tweet get in there? Man, he just hates our Braves………
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
I could care less about integrity… Pete Rose belongs in the HOF!!! I care more about using PED’s McGwire, Palmeiro, Clemons, ect… do not belong in the HOF IMO!!
Hillbilly
January 17th, 2012
3:45 pm
And I do not believe he thinks that there would be much of a drop off, if any, with Julio Teheran or Randall Delgado taking a rotation spot in place of Jair.
Is it because of his “peripherals” and advanced statistics, because I keep reading that this is a reason he’s not a very good pitcher?…despite what I’ve seen with my own eyes.
nolie
January 17th, 2012
3:46 pm
It was Vincent , not Selig, who was such a devoted advocate of Giamatti . he was not an “owner” guy and was replaced rather quickly by Bud
David O'Brien
January 17th, 2012
3:48 pm
Shaun, just think if you were a BBWAA member with 10 or more years service, you could have voted and been the 24th vote for Juan Gonzalez out of more than 500 ballots cast this year. It wouldn’t have been enough to give him the 5 percent required to remain on the ballot, but at least you could have written a soliloquy about why you voted for him and more people might have read it and cared enough to shred your argument.
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
3:48 pm
Some bad choices go on to haunt people for the rest of their lives, no matter how great a person they were before making that bad choice.
That’s the answer!!! Anyone who was caught or is suspected of using PED’s can NOT be allowed into the HOF until that person is DEAD. That’s sounds like a fair solution… good job Murph!!!!
Efrim
January 17th, 2012
3:48 pm
Is it because of his “peripherals” and advanced statistics, because I keep reading that this is a reason he’s not a very good pitcher?…
Yes, even though Jurrjens continues to out perform his peripherals, as does Matt Cain.
Some guys just get outs and don’t give up runs. I know, it’s crazy. Ball in play, chance, yada yada yada. Jurrjens and Cain, always outperforming their peripherals.
(Note: I do not believe Jair Jurrjens is as good or better than Matt Cain. However, Cain is comparable because he also consistently outperforms his peripherals).
Bat Masterson
January 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
Samantha Stephens
Murph
January 17th, 2012
3:49 pm
JimBowdenESPNxm JIM BOWDEN
Wren feels if healthy Braves rotation should look like: Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy and Minor w/ Teheran & Delgado at AAA for depth
I’d rather see Delgado start the season in the rotation than Minor… every game counts, as we saw this last season, and I think Delgado gives the team a better chance to win out of the gate.
DAP
January 17th, 2012
3:50 pm
shaun Raines wasn’t Henderson so he shouldn’t be in? So Henderson is the standard?
no, you missed my point. probably my fault.
im saying raines wasnt henderson, so its not like a slam dunk HOF case. im trying to say that raines is a borderline case, with at least understandable flaws that are keeping him out. know what i mean?
You can’t say, at least with any certainty, that PED’s were the reasons they reached Hall of Fame standards.
you cant say they werent. thats where it gets muddy. what numbers were steriod induced and which werent? i dont think we can be completly sure.
So once we established that Bonds, Clemens and those others would have been Hall of Famers without PED’s
we cant agree on that, which at the least keeps the waters muddy. im not saying there is a right or wrong answer, on this or the raines HOF question. be these are things that are at the very least difficult questions to answer, which makes me understand and sympathize with both sides. dont you agree that these things arent very clear cut?
nolie
January 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
There is a sign in every clubhouse in America telling every player that gambling is prohibited , it is regularly emphasized to players.
Rose thought he was too big to get disciplined, typical of his character
Bat Masterson
January 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
I highly doubt people will forgive Bonds for trying to kill Aaron, Shaun.
Shaun
January 17th, 2012
3:52 pm
DAP, it’s my belief based on the fact that Palmeiro is the only eligible player with 3,000 hits not in the Hall. Anyone with over 2,870 hits is in the Hall, except for Palmeiro, Jeter, Bonds and Biggio.
Yet someone with 3,977 times on base, 808 steals and one of the best stolen base rates of all time is not in. It’s not just that voters are discounting walks. It’s that they are almost taking a stand against them, like they don’t matter at all. Even if you think hits are better than walks (something pretty much everyone admits), did Raines’s 1,330 walks not make up for 395 hits that he needed to reach the arbitrary 3,000-hit standard for induction? How much does one have to discount walks to think that 1,330 walks is worse than 395 hits?
nolie
January 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
my understanding is that Pete bet as a player too
Shaun
January 17th, 2012
3:54 pm
DAP, the burden of proof should be on those who think Bonds and Clemens are not Hall of Famers without PED’s. There performances, as evident by the numbers, was so overwhelmingly great that it would be outrageous to claim that those players weren’t Hall of Famers without PED’s.
Murph
January 17th, 2012
3:55 pm
That’s the answer!!! Anyone who was caught or is suspected of using PED’s can NOT be allowed into the HOF until that person is DEAD. That’s sounds like a fair solution… good job Murph!!!!
Given that most of those guys will probably die sooner than later I’d add 100 years for every one year of PED use before they are eligible for induction.
So, if Bonds dies in 10 years, which wouldn’t shock me, then he would not be eligible for HOF induction until the year 2822.
David O'Brien
January 17th, 2012
3:58 pm
Wren told @Mlbnetworkradio that they hope Tim Hudson will be ready by opening day after back surgery but there’s a chance he’s not. Another reason to keep Jurrjens, along with his lowered value due to late-season knee injury.
Unless Jurrjens impresses in spring and a team has an injury and is in desperation mode, gonna be tough for the Braves to get a deal that justifies trading him when they have other questions marks in young rotation. Better scenario would be for Jurrjens to have another fast start and deal him in June or July, if you’re gonna trade him.
RC
January 17th, 2012
3:59 pm
That’s the answer!!! Anyone who was caught or is suspected of using PED’s can NOT be allowed into the HOF until that person is DEAD. That’s sounds like a fair solution… good job Murph!!!!
The problem you are going to have is with guys committing suicide to get into the Hall sooner. We can’t have the Hall entry rates skewed by guys committing sepeku just to get themselves a plaque sooner. There’s a legacy to consider.
Mike S
January 17th, 2012
3:59 pm
Hahaha, scoots @ 3:43. Good stuff brother.
David O'Brien
January 17th, 2012
4:01 pm
From Wall Street Journal baseball writer Brian Costa on Twitter: After today’s signings, Mets projected to start 2012 with a payroll somewhere in the range of $90 million, down from $143 million in 2011.
In other words, same as Braves payroll.
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
4:03 pm
Given that most of those guys will probably die sooner than later I’d add 100 years for every one year of PED use before they are eligible for induction.
Write up the plan and send it to Bud!! I like it!!
raleighbravefan
January 17th, 2012
4:03 pm
CraZy – Gambling on the game is the death penalty for a reason…It’s not about the “integrity” of Pete Rose…It’s about the integrity of the game. It is like an NBA ref accepting bribes, or college players shaving points…both of which resulted in the death penalty for those involved, including some criminal prosecutions. The sport cannot exhist if fans don’t trust the game to be true…if they believe players, coaches/managers, refs/umps have reason (especially financial) to throw a game. That’s what Pete Rose is all about…I don’t see what’s so hard to understand about that.
Only possible argunment in favor of Rose is that there is no proof he gambled on baseball as a player…I believe it is likely that he did.
Venice Jim
January 17th, 2012
4:04 pm
Brian Costa
After today’s signings, Mets projected to start 2012 with a payroll somewhere in the range of $90 million, down from $143 million in 2011.
Seems like the Braves’ roster might be just a tad better than the Mets for the same amount…
Murph
January 17th, 2012
4:04 pm
Mets projected to start 2012 with a payroll somewhere in the range of $90 million, down from $143 million in 2011.
In other words, same as Braves payroll.
Even the most pessimistic fan has to believe that the Braves will finish ahead of the Mutts.
Way to get the most for your money Wren!
raleighbravefan
January 17th, 2012
4:05 pm
nolie – If he bet as a player…well, case closed.
Shaun
January 17th, 2012
4:06 pm
raleighbravefan, if keeping PED users out is not based on integrity and character, what is the reasoning? Some of the PED users clearly meet Hall of Fame standards to such a large degree, that it is ridiculous to assume they wouldn’t have been Hall of Famers without PED’s.
Bonds had 494 homers through the 2000 season. The voters will likely keep him out for a while. And what will be the reasoning? Is it that his numbers were inflated because of PED’s? They almost certainly were not given that his numbers were so overwhelming, it’s unlikely PED’s made the difference. The only rationale is integrity and character, which is flawed given that I don’t know of anyone who thinks that many other guys who lacked integrity and character were mistakenly inducted.
So inflated numbers is a flawed line of reasoning for keeping those guys out. Character and integrity is a flawed line of reasoning for keeping those guys out. Where else do you go?
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:06 pm
shaun it’s my belief based on the fact that Palmeiro is the only eligible player with 3,000 hits not in the Hall
ok, gotcha. so you dont know of any writer with a vote that says raines isnt in because he doesnt have 3,000 hits. nor do any of them say that if 300 or so of his walks were hits instead he would be in. you just think that because it makes sense to you, and you now state it as fact. i understand, thanks.
It’s that they are almost taking a stand against them, like they don’t matter at all
just to make sure, you dont know of any HOF voter that has actually taken a stand against walks, right? no one has actually said they are making an example of tim raines by not letting him into the hall, because walks suck, and they are taking a stand. thats just one of those things you have decided on your own and now state as fact, right? i just want to be sure.
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
4:07 pm
same as Braves payroll.
and so much different!!
raleighbravefan
January 17th, 2012
4:07 pm
What do you think the “year off to try baseball” was really all about with Michael Jordan? NBA didn’t have the guts (or desire) to publicly punish or embarass Jordan concerning his gambling…and I don’t believe he ever gambled on basketball.
Venice Jim
January 17th, 2012
4:08 pm
DOB beat me on that while I was typing…well-played…
RC
January 17th, 2012
4:09 pm
What do you think the “year off to try baseball” was really all about with Michael Jordan?
I’ve got no insight into the reasons that Jordan did that, but one thing that tends to get really overlooked.
Considering age and experience, Jordan was pretty damn good in AA.
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
4:11 pm
Considering age and experience, Jordan was pretty damn good in AA.
Almost…polished…one could say.
raleighbravefan
January 17th, 2012
4:12 pm
Shaun – That argument holds some water Re Bonds…not necessarily for the others…As I said, would McGuire be in without the PEDs? I believe probably not. Impossible to know how much their game was enhanced and for how long. Has NO relation to the situations you cited Re Ruth and Mantle.
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:12 pm
shaun There performances, as evident by the numbers, was so overwhelmingly great that it would be outrageous to claim that those players weren’t Hall of Famers without PED’s.
but they did use PEDs…its actually something thats impossible to know, right? what would they have done without PEDs? no one knows, but it bring EVERYTHING they did into question. and i think legitimately so.
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:13 pm
ralieghbravefan It’s not about the “integrity” of Pete Rose…It’s about the integrity of the game
that is a fantastic distinction. thank you for that.
brian
January 17th, 2012
4:13 pm
Braves are in much better long term shape than the Phillies with the overwhelming payroll dedicated to 6 players. I hope the Braves take note and continue to invest in the draft and development of their young players.
With all the top young players hitting the majors it made sense to draft low ceiling, high floor players who could be ready quickly to help with the next 3-5 years. It is time, though to go back to taking the best player and trying to develop these players. If the Braves keep taking 19/20 from college from their typical draft position, they are going to stay mediocre.
TennesseePaul
January 17th, 2012
4:13 pm
In other words, same as Braves payroll.
I complain about the Braves payroll, but really when you have the Mets staring down a lost season before the gates even open, spending the same amount, you must be thankful that while crimped the Braves payroll is, it is much better managed and allocated.
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
4:14 pm
Is it that [Bonds'] numbers were inflated because of PED’s? They almost certainly were not given that his numbers were so overwhelming, it’s unlikely PED’s made the difference.
Wait. Is it your contention, then, that PEDs did not significantly impact Barry Bonds’ baseball performance?
raleighbravefan
January 17th, 2012
4:14 pm
DAP – Thanks…I have my moments.
Lew
January 17th, 2012
4:16 pm
The primary effect of the juicing that bothers me the most re: the HOF is that it skews the numbers of those who played before them – players like Murphy, Rice and Dawson (though JIm and Andre made it in and Murph likely won’t). It makes them look weak offensively when compared to an entire generation of players.
rayk
January 17th, 2012
4:17 pm
now that Jurgens salary is official, time to get rid of him. for $5.5 mill, he’s affordable for some teams who need starters. he’s leaving at first chance so he has to be dealt.
since Seth Smith is off the board, maybe Wren can make some productive phone calls (for a change).
I agree with prior posts-3rd place is likely standing. if Nats sign Fielder, then 4th.
a right handed bat is still needed.
maybe they’ll carry 15 pitchers on the 25 man roster ? why stop at 12 or 13 ? why wait until 9/1 ?
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:17 pm
shaun So inflated numbers is a flawed line of reasoning for keeping those guys out.
no, its really not. its weird to me that you put that to bed like its settled. no one i have seen yet has agreed with you on this point.
JoeFan
January 17th, 2012
4:17 pm
ESPN is reporting that Braves have reached 1 year deals with both Bourn and JJ. So all Braves are signed and sealed for 2012.
nolie
January 17th, 2012
4:18 pm
Duronio sounded as if his dog died when speaking of the fact that Jurrjens might be (”Oh, no!”) kept…scoots
cause he is a stats guy, right? and JJ’s periphrasis scare statty folks
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
4:19 pm
raleighbravefan .. I get why Rose is not in the Hall and agree that you can’t make it appear that the league is suddenly ok with what Rose did… I think and hope his numbers are all real and not inflated by gambling if anything I would think someone gambling on themselves would take a dive not pay someone else to take a dive. People that were on PED’s clearly have skewed numbers. How much we don’t know, but we do know the numbers are not real and to me they should never be allowed into the HOF.
RC
January 17th, 2012
4:19 pm
ESPN is reporting that Braves have reached 1 year deals with both Bourn and JJ. So all Braves are signed and sealed for 2012.
Yep, DOB filled us in a few hours ago…
Shaun
January 17th, 2012
4:20 pm
DOB, when did I argue that Juan Gonzalez is a Hall of Famer?
If there is reason to believe that PED’s may have pushed a borderline guy into Hall of Famer status, I understand the PED’s-inflated-numbers argument. I don’t understand it with the guys that put up numbers that are so overwhelmingly great that it’s almost ridiculous to argue that PED’s attributed to those guys being Hall of Fame caliber versus not being so.
Voters should consider PED’s affect on stats, just like they should consider ballparks, league environment, etc. But it’s ridiculous to assume PED’s pushed Bonds’s numbers into Hall of Fame territory. He was very likely a Hall of Famer without PED’s.
So if you want to keep him out, you have to argue that it’s about character and integrity. And that’s a rather easy argument to tear down because the Hall of Fame has never considered character and integrity, and no one thinks it was a big mistake to let in Ruth or Cobb or Gaylord Perry for a lack of character and integrity.
Juan Gonzalez is completely different. He’s a borderline case. So if one thinks his numbers were good enough, one could argue that it is because of PED’s. Bonds and Clemens clearly are not close to borderline, so it’s not reasonable to argue that PED’s pushed them into the Hall of Fame. They were already there. PED’s likely made them look like possibly the greatest hitter and pitcher ever. But they were already Hall of Famers.
Oh, even if you completely ignore PED’s, Juan Gonzalez still probably falls short.
Murph
January 17th, 2012
4:20 pm
Character and integrity are subjective. While I do not believe that a player drinking a 6 pack after a game and coming to the ballpark with a headache the next day constitutes poor character or integrity, a person who was raised in a strict Amish household would likely disagree.
The flaw in your argument, Shaun, is that the standards of character and integrity change based on the time in which they are called into question, the person who is calling them into question, and the audience.
You might find a sympathetic ear as you discuss these issues with your mom as you drive to church on Sundays, but you are not as likely to get as validating of a response when speaking to others who were raised with different values or in a different time than you.
That and you’re just stupid.
Lew
January 17th, 2012
4:21 pm
Why would Jurrjens’ salary being made definite make him more appealing to other teams now, when he made almost exactly what everyone thought he would?
nolie
January 17th, 2012
4:21 pm
shouldn’t be any surprise that JJ’s contract contains incentive clauses.
David O'Brien
January 17th, 2012
4:21 pm
I think the Braves will likely re-sign Moylan, now that they know exactly how much money they have left to spend and now that he’s begun his throwing program. That could happen soon.
Lew
January 17th, 2012
4:24 pm
Bullpen’s gonna be loaded this year – as deep as any pen I’ve ever seen.
Ward
January 17th, 2012
4:24 pm
Hell everyone! You break the Rules……..You pay the price……..No HOF for players who break the rules. Even though I think Joe Jackson should be in the HOF. It Is what It Is…….Talk later tonight,and peace…….
Murph
January 17th, 2012
4:25 pm
Ward forgot his “o” again.
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
4:26 pm
He was very likely a Hall of Famer without PED’s.
You’re not a thief until you rob the bank, either.
BravesFanSince80's
January 17th, 2012
4:26 pm
@Random: takes one to know one:)
Shaun
January 17th, 2012
4:27 pm
Wait. Is it your contention, then, that PEDs did not significantly impact Barry Bonds’ baseball performance?
ncscoots, depends on what you mean by significant. I think even if we are conservative, we would say Bonds would have likely hit over 500 homers, posted an OBP at least close to .400, posted a slugging over .500 and would have been a highly regarded defensive player for at least close to 20 years. Those are not necessarily Babe Ruth type, upper-echelon Hall of Fame numbers but those would have gotten him in.
It is my contention that PED’s didn’t transform him from a really good player to a Hall of Famer. It is my contention that PED’s possibly transformed his numbers from those of a Mike Schmidt, Lou Gehrig, Joe Morgan type Hall of Famer to those of a Ruth, Mays type Hall of Famer.
nolie
January 17th, 2012
4:28 pm
The primary effect of the juicing that bothers me the most re: the HOF is that it skews the numbers of those who played before them – players like Murphy, Rice and Dawson …Lew
and juiced balls, lower mounds, smaller stadiums. DHs etc etc doesn’t?
Bat Masterson
January 17th, 2012
4:28 pm
I’m getting really tired of Shaun impugning Babe Ruth’s character.
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
4:29 pm
cause he is a stats guy, right? and JJ’s periphrasis scare statty folks
That, and the fact that he’s at the two-years-of-club-control marker. Some of these guys seem to think that keeping such a guy when you can trade him for prospects who are four or five years out…well, that’s worse than taking PEDs.
Heaven forbid that you could actually use the performance of such a player instead of trading him.
RC
January 17th, 2012
4:29 pm
Bullpen’s gonna be loaded this year – as deep as any pen I’ve ever seen.
Let’s just be sure that Fredi is aware of that fact. I don’t want to look at the apperances leaders midseason and see Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty all in the top 10 again.
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:29 pm
“shouldn’t be any surprise that JJ’s contract contains incentive clauses”
Surprise? No. Can we read anything into the fact that it does? That’s what I’d like to know. If Boras/JJ are significantly concerned with his health, doesn’t that make them more likely to negotiate a contract without incentives, or to go in front of the panel, where incentives are not used?
Sopheee
January 17th, 2012
4:32 pm
Yay for the Falcons hiring Mike Nolan as DC.
RC
January 17th, 2012
4:33 pm
Surprise? No. Can we read anything into the fact that it does? That’s what I’d like to know. If Boras/JJ are significantly concerned with his health, doesn’t that make them more likely to negotiate a contract without incentives, or to go in front of the panel, where incentives are not used?
Don’t think JJ and Boras had a lot of leverage in this situation. While incentives are not used, you can bet that JJ’s innings totals over the past few years would be used against him before the panel. It probably speaks more to the Braves concerns than anything. Based on the relative size of the incentives, however, I wouldn’t put a ton of thought into them at all.
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
4:33 pm
Some of the PED users clearly meet Hall of Fame standards to such a large degree, that it is ridiculous to assume they wouldn’t have been Hall of Famers without PED’s
We don’t know how much any player’s numbers were skewed by PED’s and that’s exactly why no one that took PED’s should be allowed into the HOF.
nolie
January 17th, 2012
4:33 pm
I think you are thinking too hard on it BAS. many if not most players with injury injuries have those contracts. I think it would have said more if they weren’t there
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
4:35 pm
Let’s just be sure that Fredi is aware of that fact. I don’t want to look at the apperances leaders midseason and see Kimbrel, Venters, O’Flaherty all in the top 10 again.
I’d be less thrilled with 10 blown saves by Medlen/Varvaro/Martinez. You use who you got, when you gotta.
It’s up to the offense and the starters to give Fredo some options, and up to the middle relief to perform well enough that Fredo isn’t afraid to call their number.
CrαZy
January 17th, 2012
4:36 pm
I think even if we are conservative, we would say Bonds would have likely hit over 500 homers, posted an OBP at least close to .400, posted a slugging over .500 and would have been a highly regarded defensive player for at least close to 20 years
Yeah you could say that, but you wouldn’t be factually true because you don’t know!!!!
What if PED’s kept Bonds from going threw Griffey like injuries or worse?? Again we don’t know and that’s why he should be banned!!
Venice Jim
January 17th, 2012
4:37 pm
nolie – thanks for pointing out Smash last night, but I have been awaiting it for quite a while now…
RC
January 17th, 2012
4:38 pm
What if PED’s kept Bonds from going threw Griffey like injuries or worse?? Again we don’t know and that’s why he should be banned!!
Thoughts on players who took amphetamines?
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:38 pm
I just don’t see how folks get so worked up for the HOF. I read all Posnanski now, and he writes about it a fair amount, so I follow it some. Maybe with the Braves getting in here soon, I’ll care more. Maybe, if I’d been, or when I go…
But, as it stands, the Hall has let in some ridiculous choices. They’ve left out some that are nearly as egregious. Some writers didn’t vote for Babe Frickin’ Ruth. Some of the MVP votes, from the same writers, have been laughable. Now, you have this odd policy where some team’s writers can vote while the next’s cannot.
The Hall is flawed; it will always be flawed. Who cares?
David O'Brien
January 17th, 2012
4:39 pm
Wren on Moylan: “We’ve had conversations with Peter’s representative; we’d love to have him back.”
(To me, sure sounds as if that’s going to happen.)
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:40 pm
“Yay for the Falcons hiring Mike Nolan as DC”
cab, you want to take this one?
noles, fair enough. I think I just want my guy back.
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:40 pm
shaun . I think even if we are conservative, we would say Bonds would have likely hit over 500 homers, posted an OBP at least close to .400, posted a slugging over .500 and would have been a highly regarded defensive player for at least close to 20 years.
or, we could say that nagging injuries would have caught up to him, and he would play fewer and fewer games, eventually retiring shortly after his 3rd MVP trophy. he would have finished with good rate stats, but not good enough numbers for a long enough period of time to be a HOF player. sucks for him, because he was on a HOF trajectory, perhaps. those leg injuries are doozies.
you dont know what would have happened. you dont even know when he started juicing. you are pushing your fiction as fact again.
Shaun
January 17th, 2012
4:41 pm
but they did use PEDs…its actually something thats impossible to know, right? what would they have done without PEDs? no one knows, but it bring EVERYTHING they did into question. and i think legitimately so.
Why does it bring everything they did into question? Sure, we don’t know where to draw the line. We don’t know how much to discount a player’s numbers because of PED use. Sure, I’m fine with discounting them, but by how much? Do we discount Bonds’s entire career? Why? It’s pretty clear that he was a Hall of Fame caliber player regardless. You half his homerun total and he’s still at 381. You stop his career after 1994 and he’s still a .394 OBP and .537 slugging.
So, no, I don’t think it’s legitimate to discount his whole career because of PED’s. Sure, it legit to discount something. But he was so overwhelmingly great, you have to pretty much discount to a ridiculous degree.
This is the whole Juan Gonzalez point. If one actually thinks he put up Hall of Fame numbers (I’m not so sure he did, even with PED’s), he’s nothing more than a borderline candidate. In cases like this, I think it’s legit to knock him down a few pegs and out of the Hall discussion. You knock Bonds down a few pegs and he’s somewhere in the Joe Morgan area instead of the Babe Ruth area.
So basically the PED’s as an inflater of numbers argument fails with guys like Bonds and Clemens. You have to move the argument to character and integrity and cheating. And this argument fails unless you also think it was a mistake to let in Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Gaylord Perry, etc. And I’m not sure there is anyone who thinks that it was a mistake for someone like Cobb to be voted in while also holding the view that Cobb was any better a person than Barry Bonds.
RC
January 17th, 2012
4:41 pm
BAS, you just summed up my thoughts entirely. Let them have their little club; it has no bearing on my personal view and opinion of a player.
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:41 pm
RC, makes sense. Thank you.
Murph
January 17th, 2012
4:42 pm
If they get Moylan that pretty much ends all talk of Cody Ross or anyone else, right? No more room in the budget after that.
Jimmy
January 17th, 2012
4:42 pm
Wow. Some bad news out there today:
Crawford out after wrist surgery.
Victor Martinez may miss the ‘12 season.
Huddy might not be ready for the season.
Shaun is back with his 250 word posts.
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:42 pm
For the 4:33, I meant. But, how ’bout for both…
Jimmy
January 17th, 2012
4:44 pm
Murph – not unless a trade happens. Also, I read that the Red Sox might have a interest in Ross..after the Crawford news.
cabravesfan
January 17th, 2012
4:45 pm
BAS-
Nolan is actually a very good DC. He’s just a very crappy head coach.
ncscoots
January 17th, 2012
4:45 pm
Wow. Some bad news out there today:
…overcome by the good news, though. Justified returns tonight, with new bad guys.
I always predict the success of the season by the premiere’s body count. Hasn’t failed yet.
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:46 pm
shaun So basically the PED’s as an inflater of numbers argument fails with guys like Bonds and Clemens
nope, it doesnt.
nolie
January 17th, 2012
4:46 pm
not sure what is wrong with 250 word posts, content being much more important than size IMO
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:48 pm
“you dont even know when he started juicing”
I think this is an important point that is often overlooked. Guys can juice, and not get much bigger. It’s still a calorie-in, calorie-out thing, along with the training program. Maybe he found more advanced training methods after a plateau. Maybe more protein, and more food overall. Maybe a newer, more effective steroid started after using for years. We don’t know. It’s all guesses, other than he used. Like I said, who cares?
Decide if he belongs in Your Hall of Fame. That’s the only one that should matter anyway. The real one is kind of a sham…
Send Boomer to retirement home
January 17th, 2012
4:48 pm
ESPN finally found something else to market as news besides Yankees and RedSox 24 hours a day…..It’s also the Tim Tebow network
ISH
January 17th, 2012
4:48 pm
Concerning Bonds.. I could care less really as long as the voters are consistent. If Bonds And Big Mac don’t get in, then A-Rod shouldn’t either.. Only reason I say that is because it’s obvious that A-Rod, even though we know he’s a juicer.. never gets brought up as much as the others (because he’s a Yankee no doubt)..
Jimmy
January 17th, 2012
4:49 pm
Nolie – the 250 words are mostly repeats from previous post.
DAP
January 17th, 2012
4:51 pm
ISH it’s obvious that A-Rod, even though we know he’s a juicer.. never gets brought up as much as the others (because he’s a Yankee no doubt)..
nah, i think its probably because he is nowhere close to being eligible for the HOF, while the other guys are. I believe its 5 years after you retire, and a-rod is under contract for like 5 or 6 more years isnt he? so 10 years from now this discussion will likely include a-rod.
Jbailz
January 17th, 2012
4:51 pm
Everyone needs to realize that our W/L per month went like this: April 14-15, May 17-11, June 17-9, July 16-11, August 17-9, September 9-18. So we only had 2 months under .500, if we play September at .500 we are in the playoffs. This team is a GOOD team and we don’t have many spots that are weak. The issues a lot of you are having other teams would kill to consider their “worst spots”.
Everyone needs to relax and realize even with making the small tweaks we’ve made we are a good team that will win 90+ games this year and make the playoffs.
Bay Area Steve
January 17th, 2012
4:51 pm
“Nolan is actually a very good DC”
True. But, that “very crappy head coach” part ruined him for me. I suppose I can still root for the Falcons, because of the folks here, but I will always despise that guy. He was in Miami, right? And, they finished strong. Surprised they’d let him leave; couldn’t have been much more money…
Murph
January 17th, 2012
4:52 pm
Wow. Some bad news out there today:
Crawford out after wrist surgery.
Victor Martinez may miss the ‘12 season.
Huddy might not be ready for the season.
Shaun is back with his 250 word posts.
Yup, bad news all around.
I figured Shaun’s recovery time from his hair transplants would have been at least a month or two longer. Amazing what doctors can do these days. The fact that they can take monkey pubes and make them grow on a human head… I mean, wow!
nolie
January 17th, 2012
4:54 pm
the 250 words are mostly repeats from previous post….Jimmy
true, but that is a different point
Jimmy
January 17th, 2012
4:54 pm
I don’t see Darvish being this big impact pitcher like he is being painted.
I know what he’s done in Japan, but come on, this is the Big Show.
I mean, name one pitcher from Japan that wasn’t a one-hit-wonder.
And in Texas?? He’ll start melting in June.