Braves avoid arbitration with the “O” in bullpen trio

Is $6.8+ million good or bad for Braves?

Good. This is the last year of Arb for Bourn. These salaries are comparable in Arb hearings. Had it settled at over $10M salary increases would move faster. The more teams which settle for lower numbers, the slower salaries increase.

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Speaking of the “career worst” year for many Braves in 2011, how many folks remember ‘82? The team before and after was pretty mediocre. But, in ‘82, a lot of Braves had their career best year.

Maybe 2011 was the Baseball Gods’ long delayed payback for ‘82.

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Their (alleged) cheating affected outcomes of games, in one case the World Serious.

“Allegedly” impacted the World For-Reals-Yall

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Bat Masterson, Babe Ruth should have been the first guy in by himself and let everybody else in afterwards, anything less was disrespectful and unrealistic, Babe Ruth IS major league baseball to this very day. The most impressive sports record in the history of our great nation is Ruth’s 60 home runs when no other TEAM hit 60. A giant among men and will forever be the greatest player the game has ever known, those writers were fools…

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raleighbravefan (January 17th, 2012 10:02 am): “Doogie to Barney…totally different characters. 2 Barneys totally different as well. Barney Fife was one of the truly great characters in the history of TV.”

raleighbravefan, McFann — Howzabout Barney Miller???????

A strong character (Hal Linden), and a VERY good show for 6 or 7 seasons (’75 — ‘82).

Do not dismiss what you do not know.

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What’s up, folks? The holidays and just after are usually very busy for me, but we are entering slow time, so I’m back. I’m sure many aren’t too excited about that.

Any good discussions lately?

Regarding the Hall of Fame, it’s not a pure place. The voters never worried about integrity and character before but now, all of sudden when it comes to PED’s, they want to take “integrity” and “character” into account.

When Mickey Mantle was showing up to games with hangovers, the writers brushed it aside, when it came time to vote him in. Yet when someone takes a substance to improve his game, the writers consider that as a mark against his character and integrity.

Baseball wasn’t innocent, a Garden of Eden, until the serpent of steroids and PED’s came along. Baseball has never been a pure sport.

Yes, take PED’s into account. If a guy is borderline and we know he used PED’s, don’t vote for him. But if a guy is a Hall of Famer overwhelmingly, put him in.

Ruth, for most of his career, did not give it his all. Is that a display of integrity? Mantle showed up to work with hangovers. Did Mantle possess integrity? Gaylord Perry used substances to doctor baseballs. What does that say about the integrity of the game? Cobb and Ruth got into fist fights with umps. Character and integrity? What about the players who used amphetamines?

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Pleased with the price tag for Bourn.

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Welcome back, Shaun.

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Braves bullpen will once again close the door on opposing teams. Lots of ifs but the Braves will once again field a formidable lineup.

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Any good discussions lately? Shaun

We had some old sit-com discussion lately. Bringing up Ellie Mae Clampett made DOB feel young so thats something, I guess. Of course I know about her from re-runs.

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@ncscoots (January 17th, 2012 10:16 am) –

“Dinghy”.

LOL!!!

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I disagree that a person who takes PEDS to help them perform better should be characterized with the idiots who drank or drugged up and harmed themselves and their teams. They both were wrong but one is a cheat and the other is an idiot.

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writers will also brush away Bobby Cox picking his nose and Greg Maddux picking his nose and wiping it on somebody. Mickey’s drinking did not affect the integrity of the game but it did help lead to bad health conditions that ultimately cost him his life. PEDs affect the integrity of the game

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Can we please get over this flawed idea that the game was pure and the record books untainted until PED’s came along? Let’s think this through, people. _ Shaun

Nice to have you back, Shaun.

Now that the niceties are out of the way, what’s all this we sh*t.

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Whether its fair or not, back in those days, the writers hung around the players.It was more personal, so yes some writers would sweep things under the carpet. It was like ratting on their friend. That has not been the case in a long time. Of course I think a lot of writers are and have formed their own opinions. Some will and do vote for Mark M and others and others will not. And I wonder how many of the writers are letting the players that are in the HOF sway them.

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So if a writer wants to argue that the Hall should kick out Ruth, Mantle, Cobb and others…

I’d be interested in listening to this as I didn’t think it was in the rule books that the writers could go back and remove players whom they’ve previously voted in. Is it DOB?

Or was this just an exceedingly crude example not based in reality? A rather simplistic argument: The writers have failed in the past and therefore should not even attempt to do the right thing going forward.

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JJ settles for 5.5 million.

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When was the last time the Braves had a player go to arbitration?

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TennesseePaul, well, at least give credence to the fact that there are players already in the Hall who are just as reprehensible as any PED user and acknowledge it in the arguments against PED users. To invoke the character and integrity clause for PED users but then not address the inconsistencies this creates when it comes to players already in the Hall versus PED users is just lazy.

The argument “The writers have failed in the past and therefore should not even attempt to do the right thing going forward.” means that one must be willing to argue that Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry and others shouldn’t have been admitted. If one argues that, in addition to taking a stand against PED’s, I would have respect for his or her consistency. But you’d be hard-pressed to find a writer who thinks Ruth, Mantle, Cobb, Perry, etc. don’t belong in the Hall and willing to argue that point when making the arguments against PED users.

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When Mickey Mantle was showing up to games with hangovers, the writers brushed it aside, when it came time to vote him in. Yet when someone takes a substance to improve his game, the writers consider that as a mark against his character and integrity.

Your time away didn’t improve your intelligence much.

Mantle’s drinking and Bonds use of steroids are in absolutely no way comparable. No matter how you twist it, not comparable.

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jeffrey doo doo, Francoeur went to arbitration, I’m pretty sure. I’m not sure if he’s the last.

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VaBravesFan My favorite nickname for the Braves bullpen was (amd i may have them in the wrong order): Shut up, Sit down and Go home.

thats a good one. i love the guys on the radio: “and ANOTHER strikeout for shut up, with sit down warming in the ‘pen!”

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“Can we please get over this flawed idea that the game was pure and the record books untainted until PED’s came along? Let’s think this through, people.”

Who has that idea? There are almost certainly players in the Hall who threw games, beat up fans, gambled, played under the influence, intentionally attempted to injure opposing players, associated with gangsters, were openly racist, and all manner of other offenses. Anyone with even rudimentary knowledge of the history of the game knows this. Might even be a player or two who were ALL of this, and more.

The problem with PEDs is they distorted (enhancing, for the most part) the accomplishments of the player/users. Most of the other “impurities” did NOT have this effect (amphetamines likely an exception).

So, how do you fairly judge accomplishments? We KNOW Bonds, Palmeiro, and McGwire and ARod have hit home runs they would not have hit otherwise, but how many? What pitchers benefitted, and to what extent? Baseball isn’t like the Olympics, where the medal of a “caught” doper can be passed off to the runner-up. I ask you this: Excluding all the effects of PEDs, who would have hit the most home runs between, say, 1994 and 2008? Driven in the most runs? Posted the highest batting average, or the most hits? We’ll NEVER know.

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Francoeur didn’t go to arb.

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Jones – 14
Uggla – 13.2
McCann – 11.66
Lowe – 10
Hudson – 9

Bourn – 6.845
Jurrjens – 5.5
Prado – 4.75
O’Flaherty – 2.49

Diaz – 1.125
Hinske – 1.5
Ross – 1.625
Wilson – 1

Total for 12 players – 82.695 million
13 players @ avg. minimum salary – 6.76 million

Total payroll for 2012 – 89.455 million

Possible incentives:
Jurrjens – .025-.150
Wilson – .2

I’m sure there will be more incentives for players that sign minimum salary contracts for plate appearances, etc. But there you have it, a 90 million dollar payroll.

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raleighbravefan…….see DOB’s response. He said it much better than I could have.

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Efrim,

Cot’s has Diaz at $2.125 for 2012. I know that Pittsburgh sent some money to the Braves to help offset his salary, but I’m not sure that any of that money was applied to 2012.

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Murph, you’re right. Mantle showing up with a hangover or drunk is worse, in some ways. He’s basically helping the Yankees’ opponent. At least with Bonds and PED users, they actually are improving their teams’ chances. So, yes, those things are not completely comparable.

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RC, yeah I took a guess based on what discussion we had here and I think some of it was for 2012, as he was acquired with one month left in the season. I guess they might of just forked over 350K. That made more sense to me, anyway. If we didn’t get anything toward 2012, then we are at 90.455 million, and perhaps slightly more with incentives.

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$500K per player probably is a low estimate in that case.

I did it at 520K = 6.76 million for 13 pre-arb players, but even that may be low.

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I sure wish if the Braves keep Prado, they would keep him in LF. Last year he was not quite league average at either 3B or LF but I think he has a higher upside in LF. Bouncing around between positions has to take away a little from his overall defense and if he concentrates at one at least he could be average there.

You rest Chipper and all of a sudden you have Diaz in LF and Prado at 3rd and 2 below average fielders on the left side.

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http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/m/mantlmi01.shtml

Mantle really helped out the Yankees’ opponents… that career .421 OBP really dragged his team down.

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Shaun I’m back. I’m sure many aren’t too excited about that.

good to see you Shaun.

how is Bonds all that different from Ruth, Mantle, Cobb and countless others when it comes to common standards of character and integrity?

maybe it isnt HIS integrity, but the integrity of his accomplishments. They arent real, they are artificially inflated. im just saying that cussing, cheating on your wife, or showing up drunk doesnt make you put up better stats. that makes it different, and makes it a tough situation.

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The problem with PEDs is they distorted (enhancing, for the most part) the accomplishments of the player/users. Most of the other “impurities” did NOT have this effect (amphetamines likely an exception).

I think changing the makeup of the baseballs, segregation, internationalism, turning a blind eye to players consorting with gamblers, lowering and raising the mound, changing stadium dimensions, etc. all distort the accomplishments of players.

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I see we are back to the robot argument.

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well, at least give credence to the fact that there are players already in the Hall who are just as reprehensible as any PED user and acknowledge it in the arguments against PED users.

It seems rather pointless. The voters today, as per my understanding of the system, have no say in players who are already in the hall of fame. Giving “credence” to it has zero bearing on how one views their their own personal vote for players for whom they can actually vote. Today’s voters don’t have the option to vote on Ruth. Ruth is a hall of famer. It doesn’t matter one wit what anyone says today about hit integrity. That’s the honor and glory of being in the Hall of Fame. The presence of hall members of questionable integrity does not preclude current voters from utilizing integrity as a qualifier for their own vote.

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What if Bonds had used PEDs AND shown up to games hungover? Would the two cancel each other out, therefore making him HOF worthy again?

While numbers are fun in baseball, we get WAY too tied up in them IMO. If Willie Mays hadn’t played so much of his career in Candlestick Park, he might have broken Ruth’s HR record long before Aaron. If Ruth hadn’t played in Yankee Stadium with it’s short porch, there’s not telling what his legacy would be. If the baseballs weren’t juiced in the 90’s (ignoring the players for a moment), then maybe we don’t have some of the wild seasons we did, and the numbers are never questioned. The truth is that there a MANY variables that go into a player’s stats over the course of even a season, much less a career. There are changes in technology (maple bats and helmets), strategy (fewer hit-and-runs and focus on power), nutrition (legal as well as illegal), even the rules themselves (integration, the lowered pitcher’s mound, and the DH). Let’s just accept each era for what it is, and recognize that there were great players in each of them.

It’s certainly the right of the Hall of Fame voters to vote as they see fit, but they should recognize that if they exclude the best players for whatever reason then they risk pushing themselves into irrelevance as younger fans care less about the reasons.

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Bonds’ accomplishments are in question because of PEDs, while Mantle’s are not in question because of alcohol.

I think Mantle’s numbers are in question because of alcohol, but the question is whether or not they should be higher. And since they were high enough to clear the HoF bar, noboby cares how much higher they might have been….they were good enough.

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McFann – Your Grandparent?!!…Good grief!

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Random – Barney Miller had a great cast. Steve Landesberg was a favorite. Also, Andy Kauffman and the cast from Taxi.

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raleighbravefan—

What? What’s the matter??

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maybe Mantle played better while drinking. I remember hearing in college all the time how different people played pool, darts, golf, etc., better when they were drinking

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DOB,

I’m going to take issue with your opinion that Rose should be in the HOF based on his achievements as a player. I think gambling (and I imagine MLB agrees with this) is the “evil which cannot be named” for MLB. The suggestion that players gamble on games undermines the illusion that the contest is “real” and the outcome in doubt.

You can complain about a player’s character, but that doesn’t alter the facts of his career. You can say that a player cheated by scuffing a ball or taking a banned drug, but in both cases the player is trying to gain a competitive advantage for the purposes of winning the game. But if the player is accused of gambling, then the idea of a player possibly throwing the game is introduced to the fan. It doesn’t matter when the player did it, or even if he was betting on himself to win.

The idea of gambling is an existential threat to MLB’s business. Those creditably accused of it will be “disappeared” to the best of its ability. I can’t say I blame them.

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TennesseePaul, right. The voters can do nothing about Ruth. But in order to make a consistent argument, they would need to address why they think someone like Ruth is a Hall of Famer, with all the shenanigans he pulled, while PED users are not. If Ruth is not a good enough example for you, try Cobb or Mantle or Gaylord Perry or some player who consorted with gamblers. It’s about making a nuanced argument that is consistent, and not being intellectually lazy.

RC, there are some numbers that do a better job of taking into account things like ballpark and era than some other numbers. I agree that the basic, most easily accessible numbers don’t tell us a whole lot. The most helpful numbers are those that go beyond just numbers, like how many hits a player got or how many homers a player hit, and actually get into how a player performed and affected his teams’ chances to win. No number is perfect because there are so many variables that affect a players numbers. But some numbers are much more affected by those variables and some do a better job of taking variables into account. But no number can take every variable into account. That doesn’t mean that you go with the ones that are more affected by those variables. You go with the ones that best take those variables into account and keep in mind that there are other variables as well that it’s hard to account for.

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If a trade were to happen, and I mean a big IF, it would happen soon since they now know exactly what they have to work with. It will almost certainly be one through trade since one or two guys would have to move to acquire another player with some sorry of salary on him. Then again, they might find a taker for JJ that’s willing to part with a good prospect or two.

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BravesFanSince80’s (January 17th, 2012 12:05 pm): “guys, I’m talking about how the team reacted, they all had that look on their faces from that point on that said the rest of the season didn’t matter because they were were lost/done. Yeah, as fans the St. Louis series hurt to watch even more, but the PLAYERS reacted to the Marlins series as if they believed the “baseball gods” had already decided their fate, that’s whay I mean…”

Your and idiot.

What more can I say?

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sri they paid it in 2011 so I didn’t figure it in the 2012 payroll

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Efrim, What about the 1.25million buyout of McLouth? Does’nt that count towards the 2012 salary?

No. Braves accrued that over the years that McLouth was actually with the team, since they anticipated taking the buyout from the very beginning.

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