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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,779 comments Add your comment
uga-brave
January 20th, 2012
1:50 am
of all the shows, i thought BOSS had the best, i cant wait to see the next episode.
Ward
January 20th, 2012
2:15 am
Hello everyone! Read some post on Agon,and Agon is going on a decline,also he is turning 35 years old soon.Can’t hit worth sh*t,and is Mr. Out most of the time. Pastornicky is 22 years old,some where around there,and is much younger,and I would definately take my chance with Pastornicky.Agon is dead,and his curse can go to the Brewers now too. Like the Rookie getting a chance,and looking forward to see him play SS.
Ward
January 20th, 2012
2:16 am
Braves do well starting rookies,and I think Pastornicky will do well.
Ward
January 20th, 2012
2:33 am
Braves invited Jordan Parraz 27 year old Right Fielder.3 round draft pick for Astros,played some time in the Minor leagues withe the Yankess AAA System,and put up solid numbers.He might not make the team,because of the lack of bench spots left,but will start in the Braves AAA Farm System if he doesn’t make the team on the last bech spot left.Hard to say what kind of hitter he is. Not much home run power,but has a high OPS.Braves have another in depth player now for the team.
Ward
January 20th, 2012
2:36 am
At least Wren,is building Braves Farm System,and building it with depth. Good news to hear on that.Some times we fail to see that,and Jordan Parraz is another in depth player.
Ward
January 20th, 2012
3:21 am
Well,all have a good one! Peace…………
Couch Tater
January 20th, 2012
5:50 am
trying to convince myself that Peg Bundy is badass.
Haha. I’m going to file this under Metaphor>AJC Blog>In-Game comments>SS.
JRW
January 20th, 2012
7:49 am
I heard this on the radio yesterday and thought it might be fun on the blog…
If you could have a free pass from your significant other to spend one night with the Celebrity of your choice who would it be?
I think I would go Brooklyn Decker (as long as Andy Roddick gives her the free pass LOL)
JRW
January 20th, 2012
8:07 am
Choppinmama
January 19th, 2012
9:08 pm
Speaking of ‘91 and ‘92 teams, these Division Series rings and a WS ring are up for sale
http://sports.ha.com/c/item.zx?saleNo=7024&lotNo=80073
————————————————————————————–
Whoever owns these rings had them on the TV Show “Pawn Stars” last year and couldn’t come away with a price he was satisfied with. They mentioned that Executive rings aren’t nearly as valuable as Player rings .
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
8:34 am
If you could have a free pass from your significant other to spend one night with the Celebrity of your choice who would it be?
This just isn’t that hard for me……A-L-B-A.
Ease
January 20th, 2012
8:51 am
Is that a prospect?
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
8:57 am
Is that a prospect?
Jessica Alba is a top prospect.
brian
January 20th, 2012
9:01 am
if Atlants’s starters all come back healthy, I am really looking forward to following the pitching stats at gwinnett this year. They will be the AAA version of the 4 Aces with Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino, and Gilmartin. Classic Atlanta Braves early to mid ’90s baseball
brian
January 20th, 2012
9:01 am
efrim – I am waiting for you to give the prospect Alba’s stats
Ease
January 20th, 2012
9:03 am
Where was Alba selected in the draft?
JRW
January 20th, 2012
9:08 am
Alba would definitely be a top 3 pick. Adriana Lima and Alessandra Ambrosio may be considerations also.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:10 am
#1 overall, of course. She beat out Scarlett, Biel, Decker, etc.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:11 am
Cots has updated their spreadsheet: https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tujElf32-2d237jk3IzWLsg&output=html
Braves have 83.7 million in guarantees. Adding around 6.5 million for minimum salaried players gets us to 90.2 million. Depending on exact money for Diaz, Braves are between 89.2 and 90.2 million, leaving some room for mid-season acquisitions, as Wren said.
Ease
January 20th, 2012
9:13 am
Potential international signings?
CB
January 20th, 2012
9:13 am
Sure,sure,sure.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:14 am
Regarding what Bowman said in his mailbag about Tim Hudson “convincing” the Braves to pick up his option, I’d be damn near shocked if Huddy performed at such a level for his 9 million dollar option was not picked up. Also, I’d be fairly surprised if all of Teheran, Delgado and Gilmartin pushed their way into the starting rotation that already includes Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, and Minor. I do think some of the aformentioned will be traded or hurt, so it may just work itself out. Too early to tell, obviously.
Hugo Z Hackenbush
January 20th, 2012
9:17 am
Alba does have a plus curve. My current favorite is Carrie Keagan. http://stars.ign.com/articles/902/902559p1.html
Lew
January 20th, 2012
9:18 am
Maybe Wren won’t make a huge trade, but keep in mind that we picked up O’Flaherty, Varvaro and Martinez through waiver claims. That’s three pretty good players he got cheap.
Lots of ways to remove a feline’s outer covering.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:27 am
Buster_ESPN Buster Olney
Indians’ only regular over 30 years old is Travis Hafner. A team with lots of growth potential, as the Royals are.
We only have 2 regulars over 30: Chipper nad Uggla. Three 22 year olds(Heyward, Freeman, Pastornicky). McCann and Prado 28 years old. Bourn 29 years old. And Hudson is the elder dude in the staff. Braves have no bullpen guys over 30 years old. It’s a really, really young team aside from Hudson and Chipper.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
9:29 am
All of the whiners and haters ought to read and reflect on Bradley’s post. Pretty much sums up what a lot of us have been trying to say.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:31 am
Oh yeah, forgot about every member of our bench currently: Hinske, Ross, Diaz, Wilson. But I think it’s okay to have an older bench, every team does.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
9:33 am
Lew – True that. Although no GM can make every decision right,dealing with actual humans who are subject to their own poterntial weaknesses, injury, and expectations…but I am confident he is giving every option informed consideration…and I am confident he will make the best moves possible for this team and the requirements and limitations.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
9:36 am
Efrim – Almost all key people are young (and cheap), and we have some awsome talent on the farm (especially pitching) ready or getting ready for their turn.
RC
January 20th, 2012
9:38 am
Oh yeah, forgot about every member of our bench currently: Hinske, Ross, Diaz, Wilson. But I think it’s okay to have an older bench, every team does.
I think most teams actually prefer an older bench, since those are the guys who know how to be a role player, and you aren’t stunting their development by not getting them in the game everyday. Smart, older guys on the bench = good.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:39 am
and we have some awsome talent on the farm (especially pitching)
I’d switch that to only pitching.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:40 am
Agreed, RC.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
9:42 am
Efrim – As they say, time will tell. We’re not “loaded” with position players by any means, but there are likely a few, especially at lower levels that you will probably see in Atlanta one day.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
9:43 am
raleighbraves – I usually don’t agree much with Mark Bradley, but I do with that article. What was the Poor Richard’s saying? Act in haste and repent at leisure?
Seems he may well have made the correct (if unpopular) decision to hold steady and not totally overreact to what was quite likely an exceptionally aberrational month.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
9:44 am
RC – I also agree…Those veterans provide knowledge and experience, without “blocking” any young guys.
We old guys realize the value in experience.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
9:49 am
Lew – I’m not a fan of MB…in fact, he is often wrong (my opinion) and can be a jerk about it. That said, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while…I think he nailed this one. I also think some of Wren’s original comments were a reaction to the disappointment of the collapse…difference in him and the whiners is that he got over it, and has proceeded in a rational manner. I think he also has realized that some of the things he would have liked to do were not possible.
RC
January 20th, 2012
9:51 am
I know we’ve been talking about how deep our bullpen will be next year, but I actually sat down and wrote out the current depth chart. It’s crazy to think that if he’s healthy enough to make the Major League team, Moylan would project as our SEVENTH best reliever (although I doubt he’d be used that way). Look at this list:
1. Kimbrel
2. Venters
3. O’Flaherty
4. Vizcaino
5. Medlen
6. Martinez
7. Moylan (if healthy)
8. Asencio
9. Gearrin
10. Varvano
And the best part? Exactly 2 of those players have more than 8 years experience, and are therefore eligible to make more than the league minimum. Considering that we’ll only have 7 people in the pen at a time, the bullpen payroll could be as low as $6 million, though it’ll likely be a slight bit higher ($2.5 for O’Flaherty, $1 for Moylan, $0.5 for everyone else).
For comparison sake, Scott Linebrink made $5.5 million last year, although it wasn’t all paid by the Braves.
For another comparison, we’ve got an awesome bullpen that runs 7 deep for about half of what Papelbon will make this year.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
9:51 am
They possess a lot of up the middle players, as well as 3rd baseman. No big hitters that profile in a corner outfield spot or first base – Adam Milligan may be the only one. Simmons, Pastornicky, Ahmed at SS/2B. Bethancourt at C. Salcedo, Drury, Terdoslavich at 3rd base. My. Jones, Cunningham, Lipka at CF.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
9:53 am
RC – Asencio and Guerrin before Varvaro? I doubt it. Not so sure I’d place Vizcaino quite that far up, either.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
9:55 am
Moylan – if and when he gets his shot – will likely be used as a RHP against RH hitters – kind of a reverse Loogy. With the depth we have in the pen, I’m betting he won’t face many LH hitters.
Keep in mind that he hasn’t pitched but a couple of innings since 2010.
RC
January 20th, 2012
9:58 am
Lew,
I orginally had Varvano above those two, but changed it after seeing the ZIPS projections for each player. I’d say they are all within a stones throw of each other in all likelyhood, competeing for the last spot in the bullpen or the first guy to be called up from AAA if needed.
I agree that Vizcaino might be a little high, but the way Fredi used him last year was as a late inning reliever when he wanted to rest one of his Big Three. Looking over the list again I probably should have Martinez higher based on his performance, but it seems like they are committed to keeping him as the long man in the pen, even though I think he could be as high as 4th on this list. Medlen and Moylan are both kind of hard to project since they didn’t pitch much last year, so maybe moving Meds down to #6 is safer for now, even though I anticipate he’ll be a bit better than that.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:00 am
Efrim – Not so sure I’d be overly concerned with no first base prospect that close to being ready. Didn’t we just bring Freeman up a year ago and shouldn’t we have the expectation of him being around another five years at the very least?
That’s the problem with keeping a well stocked Farm System when – in the past couple of years (and the next one or two), you’ve called up Heyward, Freeman, and three or four rookie pitchers (not to mention Hanson and Medlen). Your Farm System by definition takes a hit every time you call one of them up – and when you call up six or eight rookies in the space of a couple of years.
Seems to me that with the exception of outfielders, we’rte covered until we develop a few more.
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:00 am
After consideration, my list looks like this:
1. Kimbrel
2. Venters
3. O’Flaherty
4. Martinez
5. Vizcaino
6. Medlen
7. Moylan
8. Varvano
9. Asencio
10. Gearrin
I should have put a gap between the top 3, since they are so dang good.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:02 am
RC – The thing is that (ZIP projections aside), Varvaro was successful last year at the Major League level and Asencio and Guerrin weren’t. That’s got to count for a good bit.
David O'Brien
January 20th, 2012
10:03 am
Funny comment from Joe Posnanski on Twitter just now: Hey, I would have changed my name to Fausto Carmona if I had thought of it first.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:04 am
And I think that the proimary improvement to the pen is that now we have Martinez, Medlen and Varvaro that can go multiple innings – something really only Martinez was available for until much later last season. The depth Wren has put together in the pen is exceptional.
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:06 am
Lew,
Don’t disagree with you at 10:02. See my updated list above.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:08 am
Your Farm System by definition takes a hit every time you call one of them up – and when you call up six or eight rookies in the space of a couple of years.
Yeah, I know you feel that way. I don’t think there is ever a reason to have a poor farm system, as the Braves do aside from the Latin trio. Very little at the lower levels in terms of upside talent and the middle levels are filled with high floor and low upside, and that is because of the last three drafts. Hopefully they’ll draft more high school prep bats/pitchers this year, as 19 of 20 selections being cheap college players with low upside is no way to continue to build a successful farm system.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:08 am
RC – Yep, that looks better. Still, I’;m thinking that the depth of this pen is going to be a deciding factor in how far we go this year. Might just be more important than all the offense having better years.
Ease
January 20th, 2012
10:10 am
That said, even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in a while…
Hmmm…this reminds me of someone…
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:10 am
Efrim – And you keep saying that, too. First of all, I think I’d wait and see if the lower levels are as poor as you think they are (kind of soon to tell, IMO) and that the current draft strategy is as flawed as you contend it it.
As for keeping the system strong – Dude, how many teams have called up as many rookies (and been relatively successful doing so) the last couple of years and kept their system as strong?
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:10 am
Deepest, most talented BP in MLB…maybe ever.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:11 am
As strong as the system was before the call ups.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:13 am
Ease – You know some blind squirrels?
Blind Squirrel ( AKA CB)
January 20th, 2012
10:13 am
Someone call my name?
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:17 am
Much criticism over Braves draft strategies…a fair debate…but incase of Minor, ie…limited ceiling, granted…but how many high school pitchers (% wise) taken in first round actually end up in the majors as a 1 or 2? Serious question…I don’t know… but he has 3-5 potential, as well as potential trade piece…not ALL that bad, IMO.
Ease
January 20th, 2012
10:19 am
I know of one…
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:19 am
And you also have players like Hanson – a 22nd round draft pick. Not all good players are first or second round draft choices and not all first or second round choices turn out all that great, either.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:21 am
As for keeping the system strong – Dude, how many teams have called up as many rookies (and been relatively successful doing so) the last couple of years and kept their system as strong?
Tampa Bay, for one. Kansas City has quite a few young players and still a ton of prospects due to good drafting and international signings.
And you keep saying that, too. First of all, I think I’d wait and see if the lower levels are as poor as you think they are (kind of soon to tell, IMO) and that the current draft strategy is as flawed as you contend it it.
Of course. Let’s just wait, sit tight and see where the Braves system ranks by all of the analysts next year after the Latin trio are no longer eligible. But you won’t care what they say, will you? As I’ve said before, just because you have young talent at the major league level DOES NOT mean you can have sh!tty drafts. And it can’t be disputed that the Braves are going even cheaper than normal when they are selecting 19 of 20 college players. Signability and cheap draft budgets is the name of the game for Atlanta.
Lollygagger
January 20th, 2012
10:23 am
With the Fausto Carmona situation and the Indians not knowing when, or even if, he’ll be able to leave that country and come back to US… does that create a situation where they (CLE) might jump into the JJ sweepstakes?
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:24 am
And you also have players like Hanson – a 22nd round draft pick.
He was a Draft and follow. That system is no longer in place and the Braves haven’t adapted to getting high upside players not using that system.
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:26 am
And you also have players like Hanson – a 22nd round draft pick. Not all good players are first or second round draft choices and not all first or second round choices turn out all that great, either
While this is a true statement, the odds of find one of those players in the 1st or 2nd rounds are MUCH, MUCH higher than late in the draft. Finding those players late in the draft really comes down to incredible luck, especially now that the “draft and follow” process has been eliminated (Hanson was an example of a draft and follow player).
It’s like taking even money with a 21 in Blackjack when the dealer is showing an ace. You are guaranteeing you get SOMETHING, but your expected outcome is much better if you turn it down and take the 3-to-2 payout if the dealer doesn’t have Blackjack.
David O'Brien
January 20th, 2012
10:27 am
raleightbavefan: good point at 10:17. Really don’t see how that view you’re responding to — ripping the Braves’ draft strategy — is going to get much traction with anyone outside baseball draftniks.
David O'Brien
January 20th, 2012
10:28 am
RC, I like your bullpen list except I’d have Vizcaino and Medlen ahead of Martinez, and Moylan isn’t expected to be ready at start of the season.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:28 am
Efrim – Don’t blow a neuron, Dude. There are lots of ways of getting talent in your system. The draft is NOT the only way, and honestly can you really claim it’s not a total crapshoot anyway? Isn’t the object to put out a competitive team, no matter how accomplished?
You mention the Rays and Royals. First, the Rays got their strong sytem originally by selling off talent for prospects when they sucked and the Royals still suck. I’m betting that the Rays won’t sustain that strong a system and that the Royals may not see much daylight for years to come.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:29 am
Selling talent for prospects AND drating first or second in the draft – something the Braves have NOT done for twenty years.
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:31 am
Lew and Efrim are both right.
When graduating as many players to the majors as the Braves have in recent years, your system is bound to take a step back. It’s simply unavoidable.
However, the fact that you have good young players in the majors doesn’t mean you don’t need to try and acquire more of them in the draft each year. They are completely separate actions, and in recent years the Braves have not done that great a job of getting high-upside bats in the draft. They have drafted like a team that has no depth in it’s minor leagues and needs sure things at 75% of the upside, instead of a team that has plenty of depth and needs to take a shot at getting superstars, realizing that if 1-in-3 turn out they will be lucky. Considering you only play 8 players on a major league squad aside from the pitcher, taking a shot at getting that superstar type of player makes a lot more sense for the Braves current situation.
Mountain Braves Fan
January 20th, 2012
10:32 am
nolie
January 20th, 2012
12:26 am
According to Cot’s Baseball Contracts, the $15.1 million four year deal is for the 2009-2012 seasons, and Strasburg will receive $4.875 million in 2012….MBF
4 years/$15.1M (2009-12)
signed Major League contract with Washington 8/17/09
$7.5M signing bonus
(paid in 3 installments of $2.5M, 9/1/09, 1/10/10, 1/10/11)
09:$0.4M (pro-rated), 10:$2M, 11:$2.5M, 12:$3M
looks to me like 3 mil in 2012, where are you getting 4.875? I must be missing something. as for demanding a huge compensation, he will still be in arbitration for several years and unless he has a great 2012, his raise for 2013 is not gonna be all that huge most likely
https://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=tsCEGKNVcxttZHoBc2O6q0w&output=html
It looks like Cot’s added together Strasburg’s salary and pro-rated portion of his signing bonus to arrive at the $4.875 million figure.
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:32 am
DOB,
You’d probably like my 9:51 list better. Made some changes after the first draft.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:38 am
I’m betting that the Rays won’t sustain that strong a system and that the Royals may not see much daylight for years to come
Uh, the Rays have been good for the last 4 seasons and they have continued to draft really, really well every single year. That’s why their system is still tops. The Royals have tons of talent, and I remember you saying a while back that the Rays success at the major league level wasn’t sustainble – but with good drafting, it absolutely is.
Selling talent for prospects AND drating first or second in the draft
What are you talking about? So the Red Sox and Yankees sell players for prospects and draft first or second? Their systems remain strong each year because they draft well and go for the best player available regardless of signability issues.
They are completely separate actions, and in recent years the Braves have not done that great a job of getting high-upside bats in the draft.
Pitching hasn’t been great either aside from two first round picks – Minor and Gilmartin.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:38 am
RC – I never have claimed that it isn’t important to draft good players, just that you are rarely going to maintain your system strength when so many get called up in so short a time.
Wren also finds other ways to acquire player – I refer again to Martinez, O’Flaherty and Varvaro. All three have been excellent pickups – for $50 grand each – off the waiver wire. He also signs MInor League Free Agents. Lots of ways to put a team together and you’re not always (actually, rarely ever) going to have a back up at each position in AAA ready to come in and perform. It’s just no feasible to expect it.
When you bring up what is expected to be a stud RFer, a stud 1B, four or five starting pitchers and an ewqual number of relievers, then you’re going to weaken your system, but you l;ikely won’t NEED replacements before you develop more.
Take MacCann as an example. Great catcher from our sytem. Since he’s been called up, we’ve been short of good catching and will be until Bethancourt is ready. However, you havcen’t really NEEDED another catcher yet, have we (other than injury and we have Ross).
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:41 am
The Rays have been good the past four years, but it certainly hasn’t been because of their past four drafts.
Powderfinger
January 20th, 2012
10:43 am
You know some blind squirrels?
No, but from what I understand, there are blonde squirrels in Brevard, NC…
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:44 am
More thoughts on draft…and I agree that the draft is an important part of team building…However, Strasburg is a case in point, to consider…
I guess he was as close to “can’t miss” as you get, but nothing is a sure thing. He received a big contract, INCLUDING A $7.5 M SIGNING BONUS, before he ever threw a pitch. Is that better than trading Vazquez for Vizciano (plus 2 other pieces), while paying $0 signing bonus? This is an extreme (exceptional) example, because Stras was close to “can’t miss”, but it may make a point.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:44 am
Serious question…I don’t know… but he has 3-5 potential, as well as potential trade piece…not ALL that bad, IMO.
The point of the Minor thing was that you rarely get to pick Top 10, and going for a pitcher like Mike Minor at #7 isn’t a great strategy when you should be taking a risk and going for a pitcher with top of the rotation upside. Gilmartin is less of a bad pick at that late first round slot, however I’m still not sold that he should of been the selection when there were other players on the board with greater upside, and perhaps equal probability. I guess we just have to keep hearing: “Well, we would of taken Zack Wheeler if he was there at #7, or we would of taken Robert Stephenson if he was there at #28″.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:47 am
raleighbraves – and Strasburg came to the Nats because they had the first draft pick – something I’m not certain the Braves have had since Chipper. They certainly have not had many top ten draft picks in the past twenty years.
Arkansas Transplant
January 20th, 2012
10:48 am
Parra from Arizona would be a value asset as a 4th outfielder. If we could pry him away for a reasonable price.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:48 am
Efrim @10:38 – Dude, you make some good points (as does Lew), but you can’t really use Yankees and Red Sox as examples…they can afford to to chances, and to pay big signing bonuses…at a level most teams really can’t.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:49 am
The Rays have been good the past four years, but it certainly hasn’t been because of their past four drafts.
Right, so we’ll wait and see if they procude anymore major league talent from the last four drafts…..
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:49 am
should be “take chances”
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:51 am
Lew, so you really think that the only teams with good systems are the ones that draft in the Top 10 year in and year out? That’s so wrong on so many levels.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:54 am
We needed a LH starting pitcher who would be ready for the rotation quickly, and that’s what we got. You may not like the pick, but he has not only done what they wanted him to do, but has appearantly been in demand as a trade piece. Another serious question…what percentage of HS “can’t miss” prospects taken in the first round actually live up to the hype, or even make the ML as a regular player?
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:56 am
Lew,
While I agree you won’t necessarily need replacements soon, I don’t think you can stop trying to draft and develop them. I realize that’s not exactly what you are saying, but I feel like it’s worth mentioning that any player’s season or career can end on a single play, so the organization is well served to have a deep bench throughout their minor league system.
You brought up McCann, which is an interesting case to illustrate my point. He actually was developed at a time when we didn’t “need” to develop a young catcher (Estrada was a year removed from the All-Star game, and young himself). But one dirty play from Darin Erstad (I don’t care what anyone says, it was Nyjer Morgan level dirty), and Estrada’s career is all but over, and McCann is the new catcher for the foreseeable future.
Also, I wouldn’t say we’ve been short of good catching in the minors at all since McCann came up. Saltalamacchia was a huge catching prospect, and even though he didn’t turn out the way everyone expected, he was a great chip for us to be able to use in trade. Same can be said for Tyler Flowers. I’d actually say that catcher is one of the positions the Braves have done the BEST job at developing over the last few years, even though they haven’t really needed it.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:56 am
Dude, you make some good points (as does Lew), but you can’t really use Yankees and Red Sox as examples…they can afford to to chances, and to pay big signing bonuses…at a level most teams really can’t.
Wrong. Royals, Pirates, Mariners, Rangers, Blue Jays spend more on the draft and international markets than most teams. These are not teams with huge markets, they simply have a philosophy to spend more on the draft because they believe this is the way to get better at the major league level. Yankees don’t spend as much, they just do really well on the international front – and make high upside choices in the draft. Some work out, some don’t. But I’d rather go that route in a crapshoot like the draft. Probablity and high floor’s equal mediocre major league rosters. Look at the Twins right now. Disaster at the major league level and the minor league level. Going after #4 starter types year in and year out.
RC
January 20th, 2012
10:58 am
Parra from Arizona would be a value asset as a 4th outfielder. If we could pry him away for a reasonable price.
I’d go as far as to call Parra a 3.5th outfielder. But I don’t see any reason that Arizona would be willing to trade him.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
10:58 am
Another serious question…what percentage of HS “can’t miss” prospects taken in the first round actually live up to the hype, or even make the ML as a regular player?
This is NOT a reason to stay away from high school players or piutchers in a draft. That’s a terrible way of looking at it. Take the pitcher or player with as much upside as possible. Going after average ceiling, high probablity players is okay at some spots, but it has been the Braves theme and that is no way to create an above average major league roster.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
10:59 am
Efrim – NO, I don’t think that is the only way to have a good draft (drafting first or second) – Look at the Pirates. Hasn’t done them much good. But it sure helps – ask the Nats about Strasburg and Harper.
But, then agian, I’d say the Braves’ track record ain’t been chopped liver, either. I aslo don’t believe that because Minor doesn’t project as a number one pitcher that the Braves made a bad move, either, while you’ve done little more than hammer that move ever since it was made.
And yeah – like the Rays past four drafts and having to wait, same applies to the Braves’ past four drafts. Patience and we shall see. Until then, your opinion is no more conjecture than m9ine is.
raleighbravefan
January 20th, 2012
10:59 am
Seems to me that at least part of the criticism is that the Braves have used/”wasted” their highest draft picks on pitching prospects, rather than position players. I agree with the strategy on 2 levels…you can never (or rarely) have too much pitching, and good pitching is always in demand as trade pieces. You can argue that we should actually trade some of our pitchers, but you cannot argue that the other 29 teams don’t wish they were in our position, Re pitching depth.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
11:00 am
We needed a LH starting pitcher who would be ready for the rotation quickly, and that’s what we got.
Shouldn’t really draft for need….take the best player available. Drafting for need makes me think of Joey Devine. Awful.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
11:02 am
Royals, Pirates, Mariners, Rangers and Blue Jays?
With the exception of the Rangers, I’m not seeing much success there – especially for the money spent.
David O'Brien
January 20th, 2012
11:03 am
Really odd time for some hear to be criticizing the Braves’ drafts, when they’ve actually built their minor league system to point where it’s widely regarded as one of the best five in baseball, and among the top three according to some who rate such things.
Shaun
January 20th, 2012
11:04 am
raleighbravefan, when a player like Strasburg or Harper is available at number one, I think you pretty much have to take them and sign them, especially if you are a team with the resources of the Nationals.
Is it better than trading Vazquez for Vizcaino? Well, I think it’s important for teams that aren’t huge payroll teams to trade declining, aging talent for young talent when they have the chance. But a team isn’t likely to get players with the upsides of Harper or Strasburg in trades. Those type players are only available in the draft and teams have to pay or possibly overpay for such players. Well, some are also available in the international market, but it still means paying and possibly overpaying, and taking financial risks.
By the way an argument can be made that taking risks in the draft and in the international market, loading up on high up-side, expensive amateurs is better than trying to sign expensive free agents to build a contender. But MLB and the players’ union, through the new CBA, has likely stopped this practice by increasing the disincentive to go over slot for players.
These days it’s pretty hard to find that high up-side amateur player who flies under the radar and will accept a minimal signing bonus. As far as that goes, the Braves have been fairly smart. They tend to draft local amateur talent, and possibly do what they can to hide local talent, in order to sign such talent at below the market rate.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
11:07 am
But, then agian, I’d say the Braves’ track record ain’t been chopped liver, either
You don’t understand. Please, focus on this point: The Braves draft strategy has changed. It is not the same draft strategy that gave them Jason Heyward, Freddie Freeman, Tommy Hanson(draft and follow), etc. and so forth. This is the cause for concern among Braves fans that actually follow the minor leagues, Rule IV draft, and International free agent market. They selected 19 of 20 college players in the first 20 rounds and that is a shocking development considering what they used to draft like and how they used to be regarded as a player development machine. Do you understand what I am saying?
Shaun
January 20th, 2012
11:10 am
The Braves do a great job in the draft but they have limited themselves in terms of drafting athletes with huge up-side by often refusing to go over slot. But as far as teams refusing to go over slot go, the Braves have done as well as anyone could expect. I suspect a lot of that is the fact that they tend to go after local talent that wants to play for the Braves so they’ll take less than what they could command and they tend to go after players without much leverage. For instance, college players who don’t have anywhere else to go if they don’t sign.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
11:11 am
Efrim – So what? The draft ain’t the same either. How can you keep pointing to them not doing things the way they used to when things have changed?
Look – I appreciate your interest in and following of the draft in the detail that you do – just like I appreciate what richbrave brings to the blog with his minor league reports. However, you are singularly opinionated in this area and somewhat obsessive with your own point of view. I just believe that the draft is simply part of the equation of building successful teams and that the Braves are doing pretty well despite some opinions to the contrary, that’s all.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
11:12 am
Really odd time for some hear to be criticizing the Braves’ drafts, when they’ve actually built their minor league system to point where it’s widely regarded as one of the best five in baseball, and among the top three according to some who rate such things.
So, you don’t see the change in draft strategy and how it’s different from what they were doing pre-2008? It’s highly regarded because of Teheran, Vizcaino and Delgado – these are not players that were taken 2009-2011. Here is what Keith Law said after our 2011 draft:
Atlanta Braves: This might be my least favorite draft class. The Braves took a few intriguing relievers in hard-throwing J.R. Graham (4) and Navery Moore (13), and a raw college shortstop who might grow into an everyday second baseman in Nick Ahmed (2), but that’s about it. The reluctance to go over slot is really hurting them, but I think it’s fair to say I also disagree with a lot of their evaluations.
Arkansas Transplant
January 20th, 2012
11:12 am
Draft strategy changes and should change year to year. Your not always going to have the same needs from one year to the next.
Lew
January 20th, 2012
11:14 am
Yes, they ar3e drafting more college level players. And when they drafted nothing but HS players, they were hammered for not being able to draft pitching – then they came up with Teherean, Delgado, Hanson, Medlen, etc.
Doesn’t matter which direction they take, criticism has a GPS and will follow whereever they lead.
Efrim
January 20th, 2012
11:17 am
I just believe that the draft is simply part of the equation of building successful teams and that the Braves are doing pretty well despite some opinions to the contrary, that’s all.
I have said that there may be only one, or two other teams that have more talent than the Braves 25 and under – Jason Heyward, Tommy Hanson, Freddie Freeman, Julio Teheran, Brandon Beachy, Julio Teheran, Arodys Vizcaino, Mike Minor, Randall Delgado, Tyler Pastornicky – however my point is that their strategy has changed in teh draft and that’s concerning. Could be that they wanted to fill the mid levels of the system with some high floor players. I might buy that and we’ll see in June if this is the case. However if they continue to draft college players with limited ceiling, then I will continue to be concerned. That’s all.
RC
January 20th, 2012
11:17 am
Since I see both sides of this argument, I’m going to mostly stay out and read what others have to say. One question first though: Were Teheran and Delgado drafted, or were they international free agents? I thought they were signed as international free agents, which would remove them entirely from a discussion on draft strategy.
Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)
January 20th, 2012
11:18 am
Braves have really drafted well………………..
Just ask the Texas Rangers