12:30 am January 10, 2012, by Carroll Rogers
January 11th, 201210:17 am
Ray – I can’t disagree with anything you said ( and I NEVER blamed him for the allstar game tie). My point is, that as an old guy traditionalist dinosaur, I hate nearly everything he has done. As someone whose agenda is to increase interest in BB amoung casual fans, and 20-30 something year olds, he has done a terrific job. Good for the bottom line of MLB and at least some teams, but very bad for MY enjoyment of the game. (selfish position, I know).
Ironically, the old guy fans who grew up with hockey hate some of the current NHL rules. As a guy who only became a fan in the last 10 years, and after many rule changes, I like it the way it is now. Just goes to show…
Don – Don’t you realize that it’s no longer a matter of “renewing” his contract, that the contract is already signed and if he plays enough games that the option for next year automatically kicks in? If it does, just like this year, they will owe him the money even if they let him go.
January 11th, 201210:20 am
Buerhle screams #3 starter, imo – even in the NL.
However, Anibal Sanchez is underrated. I like their rotation as Johnson, Sanchez, Buerhle, Nolasco and Zambrano. But if Josh Johnson is hurt, all bets are off for that team. He is the key. Much like Hanson is the key if Jurrjens is dealt away.
Hopefully once the leagues are even, they can go to a balanced interleague schedule
NL East vs AL East
NL Central vs AL Central
NL West vs AL West
That’s all we really need. That way you still have the rivalry series (NYM-NYY, Chi Cubs-Chi WS, KC-StL, LAA-LAD, SF-OAK, etc.) and you avoid the ones that no one really cares about (Atl-KC, Phil-Oak, Det-Mia, etc.)
January 11th, 201210:21 am
A reprise for RENTS? I love EDGAR but would he be as effective at the plate as our go-to option in event the PASTOR is hurt, or in the event he should crash and burn. Would he be better than JACK WILSON, JOSH WILSON or DREW SUTTON?
Lew – Don, as usual, is showing his emense ignorance. However, I refuse to respond to his rants, hoping that if everyone ignores him, he will go away, or find someone who will listen somewhere else.
January 11th, 201210:22 am
I’ve got no problem viewing Burhle as better than Vazquez…I think that he is a better pitcher. However, I don’t know that he’ll be better than the stat line Vazquez put up in 2011. Burhle gives you consistency, which has a lot of value. But it’s unlikely he’ll have the random “peak” type year that Vazquez had in 2011.
As for Johnson, I agree that he’s great when healthy. However, with his history I’ve very skeptical that he’ll stay healthy.
Efrim – I agree with you on that. Johnson is maybe the best pitcher in the NL when he’s healthy, but missing all but nine starts last year and the final five starts in 2010 is not conducive to optimism if you’re a Marlin’s fan.
KInd of a shame, though in one regard – love watching Johnson pick apart the rest of the NL East.
January 11th, 201210:24 am
Agree than Anibal Sanchez is underrated, but he’s more likely to repeat last year than improve on it. Which doesn’t add up to an improvement by the Marlins.
My contention is they made a lot of noise, but once the dust settled they didn’t make that many improvements over the team that had last year.
Sounds like Cole Hamels and the Phillies are just working on a one year deal – no long term extension on the horizon. Hamels is in the Bronx, wearing pinstripes on opening day 2013, imo.
January 11th, 201210:25 am
richbrave – On the money. I love Renteria, but his time has passed. Can you imagin the blog rantings over “another old hasbeen” added to the team?
Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)
January 11th, 2012
No sir, not accurate at all. Buehrle is a two or three starter dependent on run support. Anybody who can nail down twenty quality starts, throw two hundred plus innings and give their team the chance to win twenty of their starts is top of the rotation material.
January 11th, 201210:29 am
Cliff Lee was average in the AL but dominated the NL. Same will happen for Buehrle.
Anybody seen the movie Bunraku ? Ron Perlman,Woody Harrelson,& Demi Moore star. Great action and cinematography.
January 11th, 201210:30 am
Cole Hamels, Matt Cain, Zack Greinke, Anibal Sanchez, Shaun Marcum, Francisco Liriano, Colby Lewis, Brandon McCarthy, Jake Peavy, Jonathan Sanchez, Fausto Carmona – doesn’t get much more loaded than that for next winters starting pitching free agent class. Little bit of everything there.
January 11th, 201210:31 am
Buehrle is a lefty. Lefties dominate in the NL. Heck, he has had 2 no-hitters in the AL.
No sir, not accurate at all. Buehrle is a two or three starter dependent on run support. Anybody who can nail down twenty quality starts, throw two hundred plus innings and give their team the chance to win twenty of their starts is top of the rotation material. – Coach
You just described Derek Lowe the season prior to signing with the Braves….
January 11th, 201210:33 am
Anybody who can nail down twenty quality starts, throw two hundred plus innings and give their team the chance to win twenty of their starts is top of the rotation material.
I think he’s a #3 starter because he doesn;t miss enough bats and relies on his defense to make plays behind him because the ball is in play alot. He’s a good pitcher, strong #3, perhaps a #2. I guess I just don’t consider him a “top of the rotation” starter.
January 11th, 201210:34 am
Cliff Lee won the Cy Young in the AL, and he was “average” in the AL?
Cliff Lee is a great pitcher no matter which league he’s in.
January 11th, 201210:35 am
Buerhle never had Cliff Lee’s strikeout rates. Lee is an ace. Buerhle is not.
Can Chipper stay healthy and play 120+ games ?
Can Prado rebound into a .290 hitter or is he truly a .240 or .250 hitter ?
Can Heyward become the star player he was hyped up to be or is he a Michael Tucker ?
Can McCann get his eyes fixed so he can be the .300 hitter he should be ?
These are the days of our lives…
January 11th, 201210:36 am
coach We have competition folks, for second place and third.
i think youre right, but we are still better than those guys.
burhle is a pretty good pitcher, and durable…so is vazquez. i think those two guys are a wash, honestly.
RC, dont you think bonifacio will the the marlins CFer?
January 11th, 201210:37 am
Derek Lowe in 2008 w/ the Dodgers:
211 innings pitched; 20 quality starts
Derek Lowe in 2009 w/ the Braves:
194.6 innings pitched; 21 quality starts
January 11th, 201210:38 am
In last six seasons, one season under 3.60 ERA (3.59)
Medicocre WHIP – 1.3 or higher
221 or more hits per season in all but one season since 02.
One season with more than 115 K’s since 06.
1 season with less than 20 HR given up since 2000 (17)
Where would you slot this pitcher in a MLB rotation that expects to contend?
I think Bonifacio might start in CF for the Marlins, but I don’t think he’ll be very good at it defensively, and I don’t think he’ll come close to repeating his batting performance from last year.
January 11th, 201210:39 am
Derek Lowe was a good top of the rotation start. The problem was….
Lowe was 35 when he joined the Braves and had almost two thousand innings of wear and tear already. That’s not to say that Lowe didn’t have two good years in Atlanta because he did. It’s just that Lowe got old and wasn’t the “Ace” pitcher described by Frank Wren. Nor was Lowe worth what was paid.
January 11th, 201210:40 am
I don’t think McCann’s issues at the end of the season had anything to do with his eyes. He was obviously favoring his oblique and I think that lead to him compensating for it and creating bad habits.
January 11th, 201210:42 am
Efrim, Buehrle was the White Sox ace. He was as good as or better than Cliff Lee in the AL.
Cliff Lee’s career stats : 119-69 3.65 era
Mark Buehrle’s career stats : 161-119 3.83 era
Buerhle has a no hitter in 2007 and a perfect game in 2009.
January 11th, 201210:43 am
I know it’s kind of silly, but I think there is a difference between a #1 starter and an ace. Cliff Lee, Roy Halladay, Cole Hamels, King Felix, Justin Verlander, C.C. Sabathia are aces, whereas a pitcher like Tommy Hanson has a #1 starter ceiling…..if that makes any sense at all.
Is Prado a .240 or .250 hitter? Seriously? Since he’s played more than 30 games in a season, he’s hit over .300 three times and hit .260 last year despite a debilitating injury. What makes you think he might even possibly be a .240-.250 hitter?
Lowe was 35 when he joined the Braves and had almost two thousand innings of wear and tear already.
Buhrle is 33 and has almost 2,500 innings of wear and tear already. They are way more similar than you’d like to admit.
January 11th, 201210:44 am
W/L record and ERA just isn’t enough data. I’m sorry. Got to dig a bit deeper, imo.
McCann had had eye problems since 2008.
January 11th, 201210:45 am
ray Selig has been a very important part in the Players Association and Management get along and we don’t have to worry about a strike.
bingo. while the NFL and NBA are having their squabbles, the MLB labor agreement was civil and got signed with very little hoopla. i like that. MLB, under bud selig, has become the model for labor relations in professional sports. he has done alot of good things, and while i think hes kind of annoying, i trust him to do good things. i think interest in MLB could be better, but its second only to NFL in professional sports. not bad.
Strikeouts mean nothing. Era is the measuring stick for any pitcher. An out is an out. Runs allowed are what matter.
January 11th, 201210:46 am
Well Lew, Prado hit under .200 in August & September. Maybe that is what worries me…
January 11th, 201210:47 am
No, actually he hasn’t had eye problems since he gave up caffeine a couple years ago. Hd injured his oblique last year while in the middle of a career year type performance and came back too soon. Do you even pay attention to what really happens?
January 11th, 201210:48 am
yaeh yeah…meanwhile jose constanza is injured rith now…he was running to 1st base when he suffered a strain in his left leg…what a way to start the pre season with your 4th outfield injured
Gee Dude, you think that maybe his strength was drained from an injury where he was completely bedridden for two weeks? Not to mention a pretty damned small sample size. Do you truly have a clue? Doubtful.
January 11th, 201210:49 am
That’s ridiculous. ERA does not take into account team defense, and therefore isn’t looking at the big picture. Pitchers that limit the ball in play and still get outs via the K are much better than pitchers like Mark Buerhle.
January 11th, 201210:50 am
I’m hoping that teams will be so busy chasing those starting pitchers and spending money on them next offseason that the Braves can sneak in and grab an OF or two before anyone notices.
The Yankees will look around after they just spent a month on Greinke and Hamels and say “What happened to Josh Hamilton? Has anyone seen Josh Hamilton?” just as Frank Wren drives by in his convertible VW bug with his arm around Hamilton, smiling and waving.
You’re right Lew, he just squints and rubs his eyes continuously while hitting. He has no eye problems. My eyes are deceiving me seeing him rubbing and squinting 24/7…
mlbbowman Mark Bowman
#Braves release times and locations for autograph sessions during 2012 Caravan http://atmlb.com/eCkzvK
January 11th, 201210:51 am
Cliff Lee’s career stats : 119-69 63.2 winning % ERA better by .18 3.65 era
Mark Buehrle’s career stats : 161-11957.5 winning % 3.83 era
trying to understand, how do these numbers prove Buehrle is better than Lee?
yeah, using a pitcher’s win-loss record and his ERA to judge his value is like carving the Thanksgiving turkey with a dull plastic knife…it’ll do the trick, but it ain’t gonna be very accurate.
January 11th, 201210:52 am
Hey, neither Derek Lowe nor Mark Buehrle can be described as an “Ace” type starter.
It’s just that difference between being a top of the rotation starter (two or three starter) isn’t 20 quality starts or two hundred plus innings. It’s run support and defense. Their in lies the rub. Five runs or more per game of run support and you’re likely to win fifteen or more. Four and a half runs and you’re just as likely to win less than fifteen. Which is why I’m always preaching: Pitching and defense, along with offense and the running game.
Team which pitch, play defense, hit for power and run the bases better? The difference between 85-90 wins compared to 90-95 wins or more.
January 11th, 201210:53 am
a pitcher like Tommy Hanson has a #1 starter ceiling
disagree there, i think if he stays healthy, tommy will break that ceiling and be an ace
January 11th, 201210:54 am
Actually ground ball pitchers are better than strikeout pitchers. Strikeout pitchers also give up many more home runs than ground ball pitchers. I’ll take Maddux over ANY strikeout pitcher any day.
i think Buehrle will top 19 QS this year
January 11th, 201210:55 am
So Nasty Dawgy, why was McCann having a career year up until he hurt his oblique? Did his eyes go bad again at the same time?
I’m not at all certain what your eyes see, but you’re seemingly less visuall7y acute than Mac is.
He was injured on August 16 last year, at which time he was hitting .306, .375, .514, .889. Honestly, I’m also not certain how you can come up with vision problems when he’s putting up those numbers.
Cricket “trying to understand, how do these numbers prove Buehrle is better than Lee?”
Buehrle has won 161 games, Lee only 119.
“Matthew…don’t cha see, don’t cha see” – Festus.
In all fairness, the ability to come to an agreement with the MLBPA has been largely due to the fact that the owners have pretty much agreed to give the players everything they want.
NFL problem is that the owners wanted to keep a HUGH portion of their HUGH revenue. NBA problems are that they gave the players too much, and wanted to take some back….and, well, they are the NBA.
January 11th, 201210:56 am
Excuse me – August 26.
January 11th, 201210:57 am
Not better than Lee but just as good is my argument.
You comparing Buerhle to Derek Lowe is laughable. Every team in MLB wanted Buehrle. Braves had to pay the Indians to take Lowe. Same style pitchers but Buerhle doesn’t walk near as many hitters or sweat like a mule by the 3rd inning. Apples and oranges dude…
I’d first want a frame of reference. What league were those numbers accumulated in? What league is he now pitching in? Who else is on that staff?
Bland rotation teams can compete in any season. Especially if they have a strong offense to help them.
As to Buerhle being on the Marlins, I think he helps that club. Should give depth to that rotation. But with Josh Johnson already being on that team, there’s no way I’d say Buerhle is the ace.
Now on to this…
Buerhle screams #3 starter, imo – even in the NL.
No sir, not accurate at all. Buehrle is a two or three starter…
“Buerhle is a #3 starter” is refuted by “Not accurate at all. Buerhle is a … three starter.”
Is it because the number is spelled out in letters which makes it accurate?
January 11th, 201210:58 am
January 11th, 2012
Buhrle is 33 and has almost 2,500 innings of wear and tear already. They are way more similar than you’d like to admit.
Agreed and excellent point. Buehrle has one or two good years left, maybe three three. Then he’s gonna be making 18-19 million and not worth the investment.
My eyes are deceiving me seeing him rubbing and squinting 24/7…
24/7? uh ohh..we may have a McStalker..alert McFann – time for McBatSignal –
Mac is fat..Mac is fat..Mac is fat..
January 11th, 201210:59 am
El stupido’s, Buerhle will be the Marlins opening day starter and ace.
January 11th, 201211:00 am
Nasty Dawg @ 10:45 – Shaun’s head just exploded.
Do you try to say outrageous things, or does it just come out of your mouth without thinking?
January 11th, 201211:01 am
Contrary to what some of you people are saying Greg Maddix always said he did not judge his pitching on wins and losses but on his ERA.
January 11th, 201211:02 am
we have a batting coach even an assistant coach for our batting coach….BUT GUESS WHAT FRANK…the won’t have batters to coach…diaz?, ss?, HEYWARD?, lf?, bench?r…oh by the way…WHO NEED 7 STARTING PITCHER YOU MORRON, AND , WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR TO FIND SOMEBODY WHO CAN H.I.T. IN THE OUTFIELD……….. GEEZZZZ…..it is so dificult to understand for you?
January 11th, 201211:03 am
Buehrle has won 161 games, Lee only 119.
thank you sir. hiding those distracting pesky loss numbers does make the point very clear
No way Josh Johnson coming off injury gets opening day start.
Plus some teams have more than one ace like the Phillies with Halladay & Lee.
So J.Johnson & Buerhle can both be aces. Braves had 3 aces (Smoltz,Maddux,Glavine). But just like the Phillies only one can start opening day.
Yes he does. Tommy also has horrific pitching mechanics which prevent him from reaching his potential, and will likely end his career early unless drastic changes are made.
January 11th, 201211:04 am
Yes, I agree. Ace status develops over time. Hanson has the mentality and arsenal to become an ace, but it’s hard to pinpoint the #1 starter ceiling types that will mature enough and stay healthy enough to become an ace, if that makes sense.
N Dog @10:57 – He was comparing Buerhle now to Lowe in 2008. Apples to apples, Dude.
January 11th, 201211:05 am
WHAT ARE YOU WAITING FOR TO FIND SOMEBODY WHO CAN H.I.T. IN THE OUTFIELD
i think he’s waiting to find someone who can hit and man the outfield
Pitchers that limit the ball in play and still get outs via the K are much better than pitchers like Mark Buerhle.
I get the point of assessing outs = outs. But there is a double standard when it comes to strikeouts. On the one hand a hitter shouldn’t care one wit if he strikes out, but the pitcher should be ecstatic to get a lot of strikeouts. It’s like bragging about a Snapple Cap collection you picked out of the trashcan. Sure, one man’s trash is another man’s treasure, but this strikeout juxtaposition seems counter intuitive.
Is it truly a measure of greatness to amass a lot something everyone is now taught to freely toss away as meaningless?
January 11th, 201211:07 am
The perception that the AL is a hitters’ league and the NL a pitcher’s league just isn’t born out by the stats. Here are some numbers for both leagues.
ERA – AL, 4.08, NL, 3.81
BAA – AL, .257, NL, .253
IP – AL, 1449, NL, 1453
Shut Outs – AL, 11, NL, 11
K- AL, 1118, NL, 1177
BB- AL, 496, NL 504
Just not that big a difference folks. Sorry.
January 11th, 201211:08 am
Caffeine & eye problems are bullsheet. His eye problems were contacts and dry eyes.
January 11th, 201211:09 am
Some of those are average team numbers for each league – but I’m doubting that shutouts are.
bringbackknockahoma (January 10th, 2012 1:42 pm):
“Chipper needs to learn how to run out a ground ball. Every kid is taught
that before little league!!!!! Why can’t a professional hustle down the
Chipper Jones had 9 infield hits in 2011, 7 in 2010 and 12 in 2009.
Jones had double-digit infield hits each year from 1995 thru 2001, averaging 16 per season (35 in 1998!!!).
From 2002 thru 2011, Jones has averaged about 8 infield hits per season.
NOBODY needs to teach Jones “how to run out a ground ball” — EVERYBODY needs to understand certain limitations imposed by aging.
“Running out ground balls” is perhaps the LEAST important facet of ANY hitter’s game, regardless of age.
Tommy also has horrific pitching mechanics which prevent him from reaching his potential, and will likely end his career early unless drastic changes are made.
Or those changes could turn him into an ordinary pitcher and end his career early…only time will tell. Hope he has a long successful career either way.
January 11th, 201211:10 am
Lew, the AL has the DH and the NL pitchers hit. Any pitcher in the AL SHOULD have better numbers in the NL. It doesn’t always happen but should by having an automatic out in the line up.
January 11th, 201211:11 am
Okay, did we really have to bring Lowe’s name up again? That does nothing for my recovery.
January 11th, 201211:12 am
Headline to a Carrol Rogers article in the AJC on JUne 18, 2010-
“McCann’s Vision Has Improved Since He Cut Out Caffeine.
He was comparing Buerhle now to Lowe in 2008. Apples to apples, Dude.
Lowe in 2008 – Apple
Lowe in 2011 – Lemon
…and man the outfield….I DON’T CARE IF THE ONE WHO CAN H.I.T. WILL GAY THE OUTFIELD…we needs runs
January 11th, 201211:13 am
Who cares about 2008 ? Buerhle in 201 is an ace and Derek Lowe in 2012 is a mess.
January 11th, 201211:14 am
I often think about this too. I have tried to pose this question on fangraphs and other sites during chats but never not a response. Somewhere, there is a great answer as to why it’s more important for the pitcher and less important for the hitter. Somewhere……
Headline to a June 18, 2010 article in the AJC by Carroll Rogers –
“McCann’s Vision Has Improved Since He Cut Out Caffeine”
And as to the AL’s num,bers being worse – did you even look at what I posted? The difference is marginal, at best.
January 11th, 201211:15 am
My uncle drinks 27 cups of caffeined coffee a day and has Hawk vision.
January 11th, 201211:16 am
nasty dawggy Strikeouts mean nothing. Era is the measuring stick for any pitcher. An out is an out. Runs allowed are what matter.
K’s dont mean ANYTHING? you sure? also, ERA is a good measure for a pitcher, but can be influenced by alot of things, other than the pitchers ability. you are about as wrong as you can possibly be.
The 11:12 post by mpimentel makes me realize I need a break from here. I don’t understand any of it.
Sorry for the double on Mac’s caffeiene reduction. But the point stands.
January 11th, 201211:17 am
So tell me why McCann still rubs his eyes and squints ? No other player does that.
If you consume too much caffeine, a ‘scintillating scotoma’ can occur causing the muscles in your eye start to spasm. It’s a temporary condition that lasts until your body metabolizes the caffeine.
January 11th, 201211:19 am
Strikeouts mean nothing as far as winning goes. I remember a game where a pitcher struck out 17 hitters and lost 2-0.
But can your Uncle catch and hit for power and average? Has he made the All Star team every full year he’s been in the NL? Has he won 5 Silver Sluggr Awards?
We really aren’t cocerned with how good your uncles’ vision is. For that matter, I’ve had over 30 retinal procedures and still draw/paint photo rrealistic artwork. Doesn’t mean that I could do what Mac does or that – were I sensitive to caffeine that it would mess up my vision.
McFann O O o
Nasty Dawgy McCann had had eye problems since 2008
Actually, his eyes were quite good in 2008…the issues were a 2009-2010 thing…
That squinting thing, eh, he’s pretty much always done that…it’s like adjusting your batting-gloves’ straps or straightening your helmet—prolly just a between-pitches habit…
His eye problems were contacts and dry eyes.
Actually, he hasn’t worn contacts since 2007 (they couldn’t fit his eyes after the lasik), and the dry eyes were partly due to too much caffeine…
January 11th, 201211:20 am
Tommy Glavine won twenty games five times and never struck out 200. But he did throw strikes, didn’t walk batters, pitched to contact and let his defense do the rest.
A good friend of mine used to say, “This is a very simple game. You throw the ball, you catch the ball, you hit the ball. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose, sometimes it rains.” Crash Davis in Bull Durham.
McCann STILL has eye problems. Copeche ?
January 11th, 201211:21 am
Dude – You have no clue. You’re embarrassing yourself. You really should stop.
Which is why I’m always preaching: Pitching and defense, along with offense and the running game.
Team which pitch, play defense, hit for power and run the bases better? The difference between 85-90 wins compared to 90-95 wins or more. _ Coach (2012 Fredi’s beisbol fandango)
I have no idea what this means.
January 11th, 201211:22 am
The point is the argument was caffeine caused his eye problems but after quitting caffeine he STILL has eye problems. And I know 1,000’s of caffeinaholics with 20/20 vision. I’m one of them.
This is quite humorous.
January 11th, 201211:23 am
nasty dawggy I’ll take Maddux over ANY strikeout pitcher any day.
actually, maddux was a pretty good strikeout pitcher. about 7 per 9 innings when he was dealing.
January 11th, 201211:24 am
Thanks for your expert opinion Nasty Dawgy…all that useful info you provided to back up the statement that McCann still has eye problems was extremely enlightening. You still haven’t come up with a reason why he was on track to have a career year before he hurt his oblique. If he had an eye problem, how would that be feasible?
Hi McFann, don’t bother.
January 11th, 201211:25 am
“Scott Proctor Signs In Korea”
In the long run this is only going to hurt the Braves. Some Korean prodigy power hitter is going to end up with the Braves because he beefs up his slugging totals off of Proctor.
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