7:03 pm January 2, 2012, by David O'Brien
January 8th, 20129:51 pm
only 5 weeks left until NFL is over…that is almost as exciting as 6 weeks until P&C report.
I wonder if braveone can run reports of how often someone asks what darkstar means? say 150 and I’ll still take the over
January 8th, 20129:55 pm
Glad Wild Card weekend is over so I can focus on my Niners!
January 8th, 20129:59 pm
as I was flying out of Denver this AM I saw a bunch of black and yellow (or is it gold I’m not sure) in the airport – guess they won’t have a nice flight home
January 8th, 201210:00 pm
glad wild card weekend is over – now there are only 7 NFL games left this year (thats right isn’t it?)
January 8th, 201210:02 pm
that is correct. FOOOOOOOOOTBALL!!!!!!
January 8th, 201210:03 pm
January 8th, 201210:09 pm
if it was Martinez for Izturis, the Braves should do it and take on the money. That seems a fair trade.
if they can expand it to get Trout or Bourjos as well then do it. If it costs us Arodys and Bethancourt to get Trout, itzuris and a prospect then do it. Besides getting rid of Bethancourt will make McFann’s life So much easier
January 8th, 201210:12 pm
Hello everyone! Good day in Football.Patience on the Angels,and the Braves rumors. DOB would’ve confirmed the trade talk that was suppose to have ended.Anything is still on,and I would wait until DOB confirms it.
January 8th, 201210:14 pm
Braves have 3.8 million,and think it’s a bogus rumor that the Braves turned that down.
January 8th, 201210:18 pm
Also,since when do we listen to an Angel fan……….
January 8th, 201210:24 pm
If it costs us Arodys and Bethancourt to get Trout, itzuris and a prospect then do it.
Brian — you do realize that McCann is possibly in his last year as a Brave? Then why do you want to trade our best catching prospect? The way the Braves are strapped financially, who do you want to get rid of in 2013 to keep McCann and his free agent salary?
January 8th, 201210:25 pm
Condolences to the many Falcons’ fans.
Congrats to VJ, Kat & Ward.
Today’s the best I’ve seen the Giants look in a long time ( and I’m not too crazy about their timing).
I was hoping the Lions could pull off an upset, yesterday, so that cabravesfan & Efrim would have to deal with them.
January 8th, 201210:27 pm
George-”Dark Star” is Wrens’ code name……….A little humor……
January 8th, 201210:29 pm
Tom-Happy for the win,and I feel for the Atlanta Fans though too. Hope the Giants can keep it up,but Buck Rogers has been unstoppable.
January 8th, 201210:30 pm
I am a little taken back by all of the anti-CAC stuff on this blog. They write well thought out articles about the Braves and provide great analysis that you really can’t find anywhere else.
January 8th, 201210:31 pm
Brian — you do realize that McCann is possibly in his last year as a Brave?…KL
I’ll be very surprised if that happens
January 8th, 201210:33 pm
In my view Wren, will get us that SS,or LF. During Spring Traing,or around The All Star Break.
they write as if it is as cut and dried as fantasy ball, which it is not.
January 8th, 201210:35 pm
We’ll see how unstoppable Buck is next week, Ward. I expect a very tough game. Of the teams that made the playoffs, I feared the 49er’s & Giants the most.
What the hell is “CAC”, and why are we against it??
January 8th, 201210:36 pm
nolie – I’d be somewhat surprised if he’s back. Not saying he will be but I don’t see the Braves signing him to a long term Uggla like contract. He’s making $13 and I don’t see him (or the Union) taking a pay cut if someone out there is will to go 5 years and $75M.
January 8th, 201210:40 pm
CAC is Capitol Avenue Club. It is a site that discusses the Braves. A bit of caution though you won’t find a 100 comments about trading C-Mart for Mike Trout.
January 8th, 201210:41 pm
Tom-Giants,and Packers should be a great battle,and fun!
I’d rather deal with the Lions- we beat them once already, at their house, we can beat them again at ours…
January 8th, 201210:42 pm
January 8th, 201210:44 pm
No problem Tom. Just google it. Great site to go along with DOB and Talking Chop.
We beat the Lions TWICE this year, but you wouldn’t have played them, again, in the playoffs.
I wanted to see the Lions WIN, so you’d have to face the Giants (again).
maybe i am misreading, you think they will not pick up the 2013 club option?
Thanks, Tom – I suspect the Giants have scored their last points of the season, while the defense has another 50 or so left to surrender…
January 8th, 201210:45 pm
I’m still amazed about the Steelers game? Seeing the look on the players face was priceless.LOL
January 8th, 201210:46 pm
Is that the same one that comes on here and links their moniker? If so, I’ve checked it out a few times. I didn’t pick up on the initials, though. (and that’s probably because I didn’t remember the name.)
January 8th, 201210:47 pm
We beat the Giants once already, at our place. Wouldn’t mind facing them again in San Francisco.
January 8th, 201210:48 pm
Yes, VJ, I’m SURE that’s how you really feel.
January 8th, 201210:49 pm
I think most know what CAC is since PWH posted here years ago
January 8th, 201210:50 pm
I’d actually rather face the Giants in the NFC title game- at least that way either mine or VJ’s team would be in the Super Bowl
January 8th, 201210:51 pm
Cab-Pay back would be sweet……A little humor.
I was wrong Nolie. I though this (2012) was his last year, but I see you’re right about the option next year. It’s for $12M, so unless he’s got a lot of performance clauses he meets, he’ll be playing for less in 13 than 12.
January 8th, 201210:52 pm
They (Giants) scare the bejesus (whatever that is) out of me, LAdy. I’d much rather trade you the Giants for Saints (as long as my guys are in Lambeau).
January 8th, 201210:54 pm
YAR, nolie, ARR.
he had a lot of clauses this year so I imagine there are some next season too. Not sure about whether he will be back after 2013 or no, I’ll guess he will be but you might be right
January 8th, 201210:56 pm
I’d actually rather face the Giants in the NFC title game- at least that way either mine or VJ’s team would be in the Super Bowl
(screw you two)
January 8th, 201210:58 pm
I thought the Giants played baseball????
January 8th, 201210:59 pm
Football should be really good next weekend,and February here comes The Daytona.
January 8th, 201211:00 pm
Tom – it’s not like the Giants have ever lost 38-35 to a great team before and then came back to take them out in the playoffs…oh, wait…
January 8th, 201211:01 pm
I always knew Tom was interested in a 3 way…
January 8th, 201211:02 pm
VJ- Stay humbled there,don’t want to get too cocky.
January 8th, 201211:03 pm
When the SF Giants were still in NY, how did the fans discuss them without confusion? The same with the Cardinals, before the football team went to Phoenix?
Two teams in the same city with the same name? No thanks. That would drive me closer to crazy than I already am.
January 8th, 201211:04 pm
Ward – I already predicted a 50-0 loss…
January 8th, 201211:05 pm
Easy-Tom When I talk baseball I say San Fran Giants,and Football it’s The G-Men,or Giants.
January 8th, 201211:06 pm
VJ-just making sure buddy……
When the SF Giants were still in NY, how did the fans discuss them without confusion?
That would be why Chris Berman and Tony Kornheiser still refer to them as the New York Football Giants (God Bless You, Howard Cosell !!!)…
January 8th, 201211:07 pm
Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy
I’ve been voting for the Hall of Fame for a long time now. Only once, in all those years, did I have to leave players I wanted to vote for off my ballot, just because the rules say I could only check off 10 names.
Robert Skeoch/MLB Photos/Getty Images
Fred McGriff hit 30 or more homers in a season 10 times.
It happened to me last year, when an overstuffed ballot left me with no choice but to lop off the names of Fred McGriff and Dale Murphy. And I guess I’ll be facing this same mess again, as long as we live in an age when anyone who used PEDs, was suspected of using PEDs or even showed signs of suspicious back hair has no shot of getting elected.
Once, players with the credentials of Mark McGwire and Rafael Palmeiro would have breezed into Cooperstown. Now, all they’re doing is clogging up the ballots of voters like me, who don’t see how it’s even possible, given how little information we’re working with, to keep all the PED users out of the Hall of Fame.
But more on that later. The good news (for me, anyhow) is that this year I was able to carve out room to vote for McGriff and Murphy. They’re two men whose greatest years occurred before the steroid era erupted. Yet they’re still being overlooked by voters whose perspective on their numbers has been warped by the PED generation.
That’s particularly true of McGriff, who fell a mere seven homers shy of 500, just missed finishing with 2,500 hits (2,490) and a .900 career OPS (.887), and still got only 104 votes last year.
It was 1993 when the steroid era really kicked in. So how come nobody seems to notice that, in the five seasons before that, McGriff won two home run titles, and was the only player in baseball who finished in the top four in his league in homers, home run ratio and OPS in all five seasons?
Ron Vesely/Getty Images
In 2011, his 13th year on the ballot, Dale Murphy got only 73 votes.
Over the decade that followed, McGriff’s numbers (290/.373/.506) looked remarkably similar to his numbers from 1988-92 (.283/.393/.531). And that’s as clear a sign he was clean as any voter could ask for. His problem was that pre-1993, those stats made him league-leader material — but afterward, they relegated him to being just another name on the lineup card. So … was that his fault? Really?
Consider this question very seriously before you dismiss him: How many players in history have appeared on a Hall of Fame ballot with as many home runs as McGriff, as many hits and that high an OPS and NOT gotten elected? That answer is none. Ever.
Murphy, I understand, is a tougher case. If you want to argue his period of dominance didn’t last long enough, I get where you’re coming from. But when I look at Murphy, I see a guy who spent at least five years in the who’s-the-best-player-in-the-whole-darned-National-League conversation.
I also see a player who led all National Leaguers in runs and hits in the ’80s, tied Mike Schmidt for the most RBIs and finished second to Schmidt in homers. Murphy was a back-to-back MVP. He won five straight Gold Gloves. He was a 30-homer, 30-steal man. He once led the continent in All-Star votes. And if there was a way to factor character and integrity points into WAR, he might be the all-time leader.
So he got my vote. And I felt great about casting it.
That’s OK, Ward. Trash-talking is allowed between friends.
January 8th, 201211:10 pm
No, Ward. I said when they were STILL in NY. SF Giants used to be NY Giants, before your time (apparently).
January 8th, 201211:11 pm
Yeah, that was before my time…….
January 8th, 201211:13 pm
SF Giants used to be NY Giants, before your time (apparently).
Does it count as before my time if I don’t actually remember them in NY?
January 8th, 201211:14 pm
Check out the new movie “Haywire”,looks like it’s going to be a good one.
I remember them in NY and Da Bums too
January 8th, 201211:15 pm
…or even showed signs of suspicious back hair…
Is that a metaphor, or do PEDs really grow back hair?
January 8th, 201211:16 pm
My parents actually went down to Philly in ‘51 to see tha Dodgers end the season (can’t remember how that playoff turned out)…
tha = the
Yeah, Jim. I’ll give you a, “before your time”, on that one.
January 8th, 201211:17 pm
I remember the shock when Campy got crippled B4 he ever had a chance to play in LA
Also the movie “Contraband’, looks like a good one too.
January 8th, 201211:22 pm
Tom – thanks…
And I assume you caught my New York Football Giants comment…
All have a good one!Talk tomorrow,and peace my friends……..
January 8th, 201211:24 pm
First baseball memory for me would be the 1961 home run chase – I was sitting in our old Chevy Bel Air when I heard Jackie Fleming, two houses down, shout to his dad that Maris hit #61 – I went inside and caught the aftermath…
January 8th, 201211:25 pm
Thanks for Starks’ article, nolie.
In lieu of the steroid era players up for the HOF, if I’m DOB, I’d be happy the AJC won’t allow me to vote.
January 8th, 201211:27 pm
In lieu of the steroid era players up for the HOF, if I’m DOB, I’d be happy the AJC won’t allow me to vote
lieu?…in place of?…good to learn inventive uses of French…
Of course. You don’t think I’d let something you say get by me, do you?
January 8th, 201211:31 pm
Speaking of my guy Howie, I remember driving to Shea on 9/24/69, and he reported that the Cubs had won earlier in the day, but added, “That’s how it should be, so the Mets will clinch the division at home tonight”…
January 9th, 201212:22 am
Hate to break up the continual back and forth, but time for bed…
January 9th, 20121:00 am
Really slow off season so far so…my 2 cents on current rumors. I can’t believe what was offered/demanded to get Jones from Baltimore. I know the sample size is small, but I see no improvement going from Prado to Jones. Seth Smith will end up costing too much since the Rockies seem to be rebuilding and looking to stock up on young talent. Not to mention Smith is Left handed, and would be joining our already left hand heavy lineup. Again don’t see much improvement over Prado. I like the idea of Izturis as our utility infielder, but only if the price is right. i.e. Redmond or Martinez. I agree with Mr. Wren that we don’t need to make a trade before the season starts however, in our division it kinda scares me that we don’t have a true no.1 pitcher, our current rotation isn’t known for pitching deep into games, and we’re counting on a rebound year from Heyward to provide the majority of the outfield production. I think there are ways to significantly improve our current lineup without costing us a fortune in salary or prospects. I’m sure i’ll get some laughs at this one, but statistically it improves our club:
The Cubs are moving forward, and have already made it known they are willing to eat substantial amounts of certain players contracts. Would you deal Prado and/or Jurjjens to the Cubs for Soriano if they picked up most/all of his salary? Would you include a high level prospect if they included Garza and picked up most of his salary? The Cubs have already had talks with the orioles, and were seeking next to nothing in return for Soriano while still picking up most of his salary. He’s had 20+ HR seasons for close to 10 years now, and still has speed around the bases and outfield. His best seasons came when he had strong hitters around him. Bourn, Soriano, Jones, Uggla. Seems like a solid way to start a ballgame to me. Again just my 2 cents.
January 9th, 20121:18 am
Would you deal Prado and/or Jurjjens to the Cubs for Soriano if they picked up most/all of his salary?
January 9th, 20121:35 am
Saw American version of The Girl With The Dragon Tattoo tonight. Great movie. Not sure which I like more, it or the Swedish original. I liked some parts of each a little more than the other. This one’s a bit more intense, but the other had a little more character development, particularly the uncut 3-hr version of the Swedish movie that’s on DVD in the boxed-set trilogy.
January 9th, 20121:51 am
Hell on Wheels finale next week…it’s not Deadwood, but it’s a pretty darn good western with some interesting storylines.
House of Lies on Showtime is pretty funny, Justified starts the 17th, Walking Dead and Mad Men return in Feb about the same time as Spring Training starts.
And I’m moving back to the ATL in 3 weeks….lots to look forward to, IMHO.
January 9th, 20121:53 am
I can’t believe what was offered/demanded to get Jones from Baltimore. I know the sample size is small, but I see no improvement going from Prado to Jones….
The Cubs are moving forward, and have already made it known they are willing to eat substantial amounts of certain players contracts. Would you deal Prado and/or Jurjjens to the Cubs for Soriano if they picked up most/all of his salary? He’s had 20+ HR seasons for close to 10 years now, and still has speed around the bases and outfield. — 13 stitches
Let me see if I have this straight: Trading for 26-year-old Adam Jones, who won a Gold Glove in ‘09 and has hit .280 with 63 homers, 222 RBI, 29 steals and a .326 OBP over the past three seasons, is no improvement over Prado, but trading for 36-year-old Alfonso Soriano, who has hit .248 with a .305 OBP, 70 home runs, 222 RBI and 16 stolen bases in that same three-year period would really help the Braves?
Soriano hit .career-worst .241 in 2009 and hit .248 with a career-worst .289 OBP and two stolen bases last season. The guy who stole 30 or more bases five times in a six-year span through 2006, including 40-plus steals three times, has slowed so drastically in recent years that he dropped to nine steals in 2009, five in 2010 and two in 2011.
He has one of the most onerous contracts in baseball, and the reason the Cubs are willing to pay most of it for him to go away is because he’s a bad player now.
And he would help the Braves more than Adam Jones would, in your opinion?
January 9th, 20121:55 am
And why in the world to sportscasters still call them the New York ‘Football’ Giants…the baseball Giants left for the coast 50 years ago.
January 9th, 20122:01 am
Bill James/Fielders Bible ranks Jones as one of the worst CFers in baseball three years running now, his GG is about like McNates
January 9th, 20122:02 am
Do you get the feeling Hines Ward is done? He’s had a stellar career and should go straight to the Football HOF.
January 9th, 20122:06 am
Bill James/Fielders Bible ranks Jones as one of the worst CFers in baseball three years running now, his GG is about like McNates — nolie
Whether he deserved his Gold Glove or not, I can’t say. Didn’t see him play enough that year. But if you’re comparing Adam Jones’ defense to Nate McLouth’s, I can only assume you haven’t seen Adam Jones play, period.
January 9th, 20122:17 am
And not to dispute the always reliable (ahem) defensive metric stats, but in the Baseball America midseason survey of managers, Adam Jones was rated the second-best defensive outfielder in the AL, behind Seattle’s Franklin Gutierrez. In the NL, Bourn was No. 1 followed by Shane Victorino and Chris Young.
Now, the managers have been known to misfire on these surveys and go by reputation or whatever, but that’s quite a reach to say that the player whom major league managers rated the second-best defensive outfielder in the AL is actually one of the worst center fielders in baseball because the Fielding Bible (in other words, the defensive metric stats) say he is.
Fact is, the defensive metric stats are widely viewed as even less reliable than managers in surveys and managers/coaches who vote for Gold Gloves.
January 9th, 20122:19 am
VaBravesFan, If LAA says yes to that well then I like it obviously, but Izturis is way more valuable than a middle reliever with no closer potential.
Disgusted, I understand, but Braves just can not operate like that. Braves are a middle market team, they just cannot depend on FA. Michael Bourn is an FA next year, and Braves are hoping to keep him for 3 more years to 8-10 mill per year. Boras will ask for 5 years and 12-14 mill per year. Bourjos is under team control, he is not even in arbitration, and the potential that he has is very good. He already is one of the best defensive CF in the game, he has a ton of speed, and all he is heading to his age 25 season. He is no Matt Kemp and will never be, but he could be the next Shane Victorino, same type of player a potential star. He was much better than just serviceable with a 115 OPS+.
You have to give something to get something, and while Arodys Vizcaino is one heck of a pitching prospect, I would rather see the Braves acquiring some CF depth specially someone with the skill set of Peter Bourjos.
The Angels might need SP depth more than CF depth right now IMO.
January 9th, 20123:09 am
Well done DOB. This comment pretty much guarantees that Shaun will cr*p all over the blog tomorrow, followed by others who still get sucked in his vortex of self-aggrandizement and this blog will touch 80 pages in no time.
January 9th, 20126:10 am
DOB, loved your 2:17 am regarding defensive metric stats. Interesting.
January 9th, 20126:33 am
for some reason I am not able to answer your post about metrics even though it is a perfectly sedate post with no bad words. suffice it to say that I disagree with you, metrics are not perfect but when theu indicate that a player is very good or very poor there is a reason.
January 9th, 20126:39 am
Below we show the final point tally for The Fielding Bible Awards in the 2011 season. We asked a panel of experts to complete a ten-man ballot ranking the defensive ability of players from 1 to 10. We show the ranks in the tables below. We then awarded points in the same way as Major League Baseball’s MVP voting: ten points for a first place vote, nine for second, etc., down to one point for tenth place. We cover all nine positions, looking at only their fielding work for the 2010 season. Non-pitchers are only eligible if they played at least 500 innings. Pitchers require a minimum of 100 innings pitched..
This is our ten-man panel of experts for The Fielding Bible Awards:
Bill James is a baseball writer and analyst and the Senior Baseball Operations Advisor for the Boston Red Sox
The BIS Video Scouts at Baseball Info Solutions (BIS) study every game of the season, sometimes multiple times, with the task to examine a huge list of valuable game details.
The man who created Strat-O-Matic Baseball—Hal Richman.
Named the best sports columnist in America by the Associated Press Sports Editors in 2003 and 2005, Joe Posnanski is a Senior Writer at Sports Illustrated and occasional columnist for the Kansas City Star.
For over twenty years, BIS owner John Dewan has collected, analyzed, and published in-depth baseball statistics and analysis. He wrote The Fielding Bible in 2006 and The Fielding Bible—Volume II in 2009.
Doug Glanville played nine seasons in Major League Baseball and was well known for his excellent outfield defense. Currently, he is a baseball analyst at ESPN, primarily on Baseball Tonight, ESPN.com and ESPN The Magazine.;
Hall-of-Famer Peter Gammons serves as on-air and online analyst for MLB Network, MLB.com, and NESN (New England Sports Network)
After nearly fifteen years with ESPN.com, Rob Neyer joined SB Nation as National Baseball Editor in 2011. He has written six books about baseball.
Todd Radcliffe is Lead Video Scout at Baseball Info Solutions and brings 15 years of Major League Baseball scouting experience to the panel.
The Tom Tango Fan Poll represents the results of a poll taken at the website, Tango on Baseball (Tangotiger.net). Besides hosting the website, Tom writes research articles devoted to sabermetrics.
Our three tie-breakers are Steve Moyer, President of BIS, Dan Casey, veteran Video Scout at BIS, and Dave Studenmund, one of the founders of http://www.hardballtimes.com and the editor of The Hardball Times Baseball Annual.
Jones got one tenth place vote and ranked 16th with that total. So those folks who are all highly regarded think little of him at all
January 9th, 20126:49 am
in 2010 Jones got a total of 6 points for 16th place
in 2009 he got 2 points for 20th.
as shown above this panel is not made up of just stats guys, there are Gammons and Poz and a scout with 15 years experience
his actual Runs Saved totals place him even lower than those voters.
January 9th, 20127:38 am
And why in the world to sportscasters still call them the New York ‘Football’ Giants…the baseball Giants left for the coast 50 years ago.
Because that’s their legal name. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Giants
January 9th, 20128:12 am
DOB, I agree on every one of your points about Adam Jones but we will have to look at his game froma distance because Baltimore will never let him go. If they did, that would be yet another indictment on the Baltimore organization. Of the trade possibilities mentioned with the LA Angels, do you see that taking place. I have heard mention of Vizcaino in a deal with Martinez and players mentioned from LA being Trout and Izturis. It would seem that of the Braves pitching prospects that Vizcaino would be more likely to be dealt if any of them are dealt. What do you think?
Tomahawkin (The Godfather)
January 9th, 20128:33 am
Can Feb 15 get here soon enough!
I’m ready to hear/see if J-Hey and the New Hitting coach will be going down to the Sunshine State early? Its Imperative that J-Hey gets Back to the Pre-Nate NcLouth Collision 2010 form…
A Nasty J-Hey that is On Point makes our offense more versitile…When J-Hey is on Point, He can hit 2nd, 3rd or 6th…Plus he needs to Run More!
But Then Again that is on Fredi…I’m gonna start ripping him if he doesn’t implement a running game with this offense. This Team is not fast all around I know…but we need to be more aggressive on the bases, especially in close games! Instead of playing Bobby-Ball ( Sitting around and waiting on the 3 run homer…
It seems as i Parrish fell into that philosopy as well…
January 9th, 20128:50 am
I have heard mention of Vizcaino in a deal with Martinez and players mentioned from LA being Trout and Izturis.
No you didn’t. At least not from a credible source. Trout isn’t getting traded. Period.
January 9th, 20128:53 am
“It would seem that of the Braves pitching prospects that Vizcaino would be more likely to be dealt if any of them are dealt. What do you think?”
I’m not so sure about that. Other than Teheran, most of the scouting reports I’ve read say he has the biggest upside of any of these young pitchers, mostly due to his ++ curveball. Command and potential elbow problems are probably the only things that have kept him from being right alongside Teheran in the rankings.
January 9th, 20128:55 am
Trout? That’s not happening.
January 9th, 20129:02 am
I would trade Delgado or Minor over Vizcaino. He can be a a very good starter, imo. It’s sad if the Braves don’t feel this way and I don’t believe they do.
January 9th, 20129:08 am
I guess if I had to rank the Braves young starters under the age of 27 in terms of ceiling, I’d go…..
Hanson, Teheran, Beachy, Vizcaino, Jurrjens, Delgado, Minor, Gilmartin, Medlen.
Throwing my chips into the middle of the table for Beachy…
Switch Gilmartin and Medlen….
January 9th, 20129:11 am
I don’t care how you rank them, I just like the fact there’s 9 of them!!!!!
As of right now, all projected members of the Rockies’ 2012 rotation are under 30.
They’ll score runs, but their pitching pretty much keeps them from being a contender, even in the weak NL West. I wouldn’t be shocked if they finished in last place next year.
January 9th, 20129:12 am
Lemke’s Knuckler, I kept thinking to myself, “God damn, I wish we had one more just to round it all out!”.
I suppose take out the under 27 stipulation and Huddy will have to do…
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