7:03 pm January 2, 2012, by David O'Brien
January 4th, 20123:48 pm
RC, he’s regressed away from Camden the last three seasons. I know he plays in the toughest division in the sport, but I think that ballpark inflates some of his slugging, and he doesn’t really give you value in his ability to get on base – so that power must be there for him to have any sort of offensive value at all.
January 4th, 20123:49 pm
frankly, hes an idiot. im sorry, but it just…doesnt make sense.
No it doesn’t make sense. If he’s going to use WAR, then Prado and Jurrjens combined is an over pay for Jones. At that point it goes back to “upside” because he is so young. Or put another way, he is… the same age as Jurrjens.
do you really see the Braves spending big on two free agent outfielders next offseason?
They don’t necessarily have to go FA, if they have financial flexibility. It’s better to spend just money, sure, but the team would also have the option of trading for a big contract. And would probably still have the trade pieces to do it, if this year is any indication.
January 4th, 20123:52 pm
And would probably still have the trade pieces to do it, if this year is any indication.
Playoffs expand in 2013…when the Astors leave the NL. Where real men play real baseball!!
but the team would also have the option of trading for a big contract. And would probably still have the trade pieces to do it, if this year is any indication.
Agreed. Wren will cash in trade chips sometime in the next calendar year, hopefully for an outfield bat. Hopefully the need isn’t as apparent if Heyward bounces back and Freeman progresses.
January 4th, 20123:53 pm
Or put another way, he is… the same age as Jurrjens.
He’s actually a bit older than Jair.
January 4th, 20123:54 pm
IMO we have a great balance threat, YES! But we are in the NL EAST which is loaded with LHP STARTERS. We are not well equiped to handle those potent Lefties. If Chipper goes down or needs rest, Then our Line up gets even weaker by WAR.
I would love to have seen BJ Upton deal made. Trading JJ and Prospect for him would be ideal. Wishful thinking though.
Hello everyone!Did anyone do the voting? I voted to keep all the players. Even J.J. ,and Prado.I think J.J. could be an Ace this year,and Prado will rebound. Bad idea to trade now. Wait at least till All Star Break.
efrim DAP, do you really see the Braves spending big on two free agent outfielders next offseason?
no, i dont. isnt that the point of what i said? sign angel pagan because he will be a cheap CFer while we sign a more expensive LFer?
thing is, wren is going to have to sign some free agents, unless chipper comes back and constanza is the starter in CF. i dont really see that happening. so i expect some free agent action next offseason, when the market for our biggest need will be huge.
January 4th, 20123:55 pm
Wren,should just sign some cheap players that will get us by until next winter. There is a good list of players that will fit the mold.
January 4th, 20123:56 pm
Ten Paul – Couldn’t possibly be that bad. He had $21 mil to spend on them that year – he has nowhere near that kind of $$$$ this time around – and we don’t need to totally revamp anything this time.
You took my point a couple miles further down the road than I had in mind.
January 4th, 20123:57 pm
ray I personally put Jones and BJ Upton in the same category. Both are athletes. Both have the tools but for whatever reason neither one is living up to the so-called potential.
i guess i see what you are saying about potential, but upton is the much better player. he has similar power to jones, but he plays much better defense, and steals bases.
Any Insight on the SS back up?
January 4th, 20123:58 pm
I haven’t looked at his Camden vs. road splits, but that could certainly be hiding something in his numbers. As for the OBP, he reached league average in 2009 and has been right at league average for 3 years now…it’s simply that the league average itself has decreased over that time period. I certainly don’t view him as a sure thing by any means, but I can see why Baltimore values him like they do. Based on scouting, tools, and expected development, the comparison to Matt Kemp a few years ago is striking.
I agree that Jones and BJ Upton are similar players, but I think it’s a bit early to say they should have any question marks attatched. Both are approaching their prime years, but they aren’t there yet. I’d say they both are above average players for CF, it’s just that they aren’t as much above average as we anticipated them being at this point, so they are labeled “busts”. If we didn’t have the high expectations we did for them, I think we would have a better picture of how valuable they really are.
Not the biggest fan of Upton. Unless the ol change of scenery makes a difference. He is an athlete. There have been a few issues with him not hustling. He is no where near the player his brother is.
January 4th, 20123:59 pm
The Lineup with Upton would be very scary.
I’m thinking Wren could go with Richardson for Centerfield too. He has speed,and can do the job. He was on the roster,as of now I still think.I’m willing to wait until All star Break,and Spring Training ,even though I would like to know the roster soon.
January 4th, 20124:00 pm
I should be clear, I think the odds are INCREDIBLY slim that Jones becomes as good a player as Kemp currently is. Just pointing out that his tools and performance to this point are very similar.
Talks between the Braves and Orioles about Adam Jones are “nowhere,” according to Ken Rosenthal of FOX Sports (Twitter links). The Braves won’t trade a top young starter for Jones, so there’s no momentum for a deal. However, talks remain fluid and Martin Prado and Jair Jurrjens could be involved. The Braves are understandably reluctant to part with pitchers such as Brandon Beachy, Mike Minor, Julio Teheran, Arodys Vizcaino and Randall Delgado. – MLBTr.com
I love seeing all five of those guys mentioned, plus Hanson yesterday. Loaded!
We need to improve over Diaz/Constanza. Need a too add a good backup 3rd baseman or Outfielder. So Prado can stay in LF or have a better option in LF when Prado is at 3rd.
January 4th, 20124:01 pm
DAP thing is, wren is going to have to sign some free agents,
this is false, my apologies. wren will have holes to fill, and plenty of free agents that fit the holes. he could always do trades, as well.
I hope that even Fredi is not dumb enough to bat Chipper and Heyward in the 7 and 8 slots.
And that he’s smart enough to include a SS on his team, and not 4 OF.
January 4th, 20124:02 pm
Seattle – I understand the frustration…but chill and be patient.
You SHOULD have said that the RUMORS are that the Braves are the favorites for Seth Smith. Most rumors aren’t worth crap, especially as closed-mouth as Wren and the Braves are. We don’t play until April. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if any moves don’t happen until late in ST. What matters will be the actual playing roster, not the roster as it stands in January.
With our top pitchers highly coveted you think a team would make a great offer to actually land one if they want them so bad.
January 4th, 20124:03 pm
If Prado and Jurrjens are involved (and honestly, I can’t see both included in any deal), there had better be a hell of a lot larger return than just Jones.
Coach (2012 Fredi's beisbol fandango)
Jeff Keppinger (utility player)and Edgar Renteria (veteran back up SS) added to the bench.
January 4th, 20124:04 pm
Matt Eddy @eddymk 4m
Braves released LHPs Matt Crin (’09 Appy League pitcher of year) & Dustin Richardson (June waiver claim) & RF Willie Cabrera (’05 D/F).
January 4th, 20124:05 pm
Surpriseed 28% of fans want to trade CHIPPER, fans have short memory of what he has done for us.
If Seth Smith is, indeed being targetd by the Braves, then why did they pick up HInske’s option?
Efrim-Would you trade,or hold on ,and see what happens?Good post,and good trade reports.
January 4th, 20124:07 pm
I don’t believe for a second that 28% of fans want to trade Chipper. I find it more likely that people who want to trade Chipper make it a point to vote in polls asking if we should do such, while the rest of the rational people in the world see poll asking that question and say, “What a stupid question. Why in the world would they trade Chipper?” and don’t vote.
January 4th, 20124:10 pm
You may very well be right, sure hope you are.
RC-I voted to keep Chipper. He’s earned to be a Brave,and to finish a Brave.
January 4th, 20124:11 pm
I should be clear, I think the odds are INCREDIBLY slim that Jones becomes as good a player as Kemp currently is.
Really glad I caught that before I posted what I was going to post….
January 4th, 20124:12 pm
Of course, it’s a moot point…Chipper’s a 10/5 guy, and isn’t going anywhere (can’t be traded)…EVEN IF the Braves wanted to trade him, which they don’t.
I’m still sticking to these directions to go, I think they would do more than any of the trades mentioned so far, otherwise I’d just like to see us stand pat.
If we determined that Montero could play LF, I’d like to see us swing some sort of trade along these lines.. JJ for Montero and Nunez.
I meant Pastornicky for the Prado slots. I just got confused…
January 4th, 20124:13 pm
Jurrjens+Prado for Jones + Prospects, Then we sign Wilson Betemit? Doesnt make sense either. I just dont see a deal getting done with them. They want one of our top young arms, not gonna happen.
January 4th, 20124:14 pm
Really glad I caught that before I posted what I was going to post
Efrim, we’ve been posting at each other long enough I’d have given you a pass
In that case, I’d say that lineup would look good if it was completely reversed aside from Bourn and Hudson.
January 4th, 20124:15 pm
We aren’t going to hear all of it, but I’m sure there has been teams looking to grab them through trade. Wren has held steady and made them off limits in trade discussions, yet has still landed Dan Uggla and Michael Bourn in the last year.
January 4th, 20124:17 pm
The other direction I’d like to see would be…
Trade Prado, Bourn and a mid level prospect to Detroit for Austin Jackson, Castellanos, Flynn and Fields. Then follow this move up with Trading JJ, Lipka and Chapmen to the Royals for Myers and Crow.
Seattle, this one makes more sense to me:
With a strong possibility of moving Heyward up based on his performance.
January 4th, 20124:18 pm
All have a good one! Like I said before,” If a trade is done? I can live with it,but if no trade is done I will be happy too.Make sure you get a good package. Still in my book think it’s a bad idea to trade anyone now. Just sign some players,and the players out there will do the job.” talk after work tonight,and Peace My friends…….
RC and Efrim,, I think many on here have earned the benefit of doubt if something is typed that sounds like its coming out of LF and yes pun intended.
Look at it from the Orioles view – if you are trading Adam Jones – you should do so for prospects, 0-3 controllable guys. Not Jurrjens and Prado. There isn’t a match unless the Braves are willing to acquire Jones by using prospects. And I know Angelos is a fool and can push his GM to make a dumb move, but I really just don’t see it.
Do you the the Orioles would cave a little and trade Adam Jones for more quantity over quality like the Astros did with Michael Bourn?
January 4th, 20124:20 pm
Wren has said to other GM’s “make me an offer on JJ and prado…don’t really want to trade them unless blown away” or something like that. So far, no one has blown him away.
McFann O O o
January 4th, 20124:23 pm
Wow…I just “played” the “Would you trade these Braves?” thing on the AJC. Some of those guys—why are they even on there? BMac, Venters, Chipper, Uggla…who made up that thing?
Efrim and VaBraves, I know there is a lot of pressure on Duquette up there IF he was going to trade Jones, it would have to be a huge blockbuster for THEM. Angelos would have to be talked into allowing AJ to be traded, plus as I think we all know, Jones is seen as a superstar up there by many including the owner.
January 4th, 20124:24 pm
What about Will Rhymes as a signable bench role player?
January 4th, 20124:25 pm
I have funny thought. Wonder if Frank Wren has Wilson Betemit in place to sign here if Prado is moved? Betemit is a solid bench player that almost got a deal done with the Pirates but didnt happen. I’m confused as to why he hasnt been signed by anyone yet?
January 4th, 20124:26 pm
explain to me again why it’s so important for us to acquire Adam Jones.
January 4th, 20124:27 pm
Correct. The owner loves Adam Jones, and alot of fans around here think he is really really good. Guess they see the 25 homers and thats all it takes.
January 4th, 20124:29 pm
Man, some accuse us of overvaluing our players/prospects…but Orioles…WOW…appearantly not just the fans and FO, but the crazy owner, and even the “journalists” following and reporting on the team. I mean, it’s the Orioles, for god’s sake.
January 4th, 20124:30 pm
Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
Blue Jays also sign former Angels/Braves relief prospect Stephen Marek
And it’s official. That 2nd Tex trade was the worst of the last five years, imo.
January 4th, 20124:31 pm
Which is a very good example of why the Orioles are always cellar dwellers… bad management.
January 4th, 20124:32 pm
why was Marek even available?
Adam Jones or Upton adds that speed and PoP we need from the OF position. Prado is going to be needed for Chipper back ups and if Uggla gets hurt or LF needs a rest. THe Utility man of Prado is amazing.
January 4th, 20124:33 pm
Kevin_Goldstein Kevin Goldstein
Blue Jays also sign former Angels/Braves relief prospect Stephen Marek
We didn’t need the Jays to sign Marek for that to be the case. Wren has done a really good job overall…but that was a serious “WTF?!” type of blunder on his part.
January 4th, 20124:35 pm
I think its in the top 5 of worst trades of 2000-2010.
Yeah draft choices from Tex leaving would have been a much better option. Even at the time it happened…I thought I rather have 2 draft picks
January 4th, 20124:36 pm
Teixiera trade was Schuerholz
I wish I had Mentos right now….
January 4th, 20124:37 pm
oh wait…the 2nd trade, gotcha
If some kind of Jurrjens for Jones trade with other pieces included in the trade, would the Braves be able to afford to keep Prado and Jones on the roster? IMO I would want both playing everyday and that wouldnt happen.
January 4th, 20124:39 pm
They could play every day only if Chipper or Uggla was injured. Otherwise Nope!
We are talking about the 2nd Tex trade, after Wren had taken over (to the Angels). Scheurholz was only GM for the 1st Tex trade, acquiring him from the Rangers, which actually wasn’t as bad as the 2nd one IMO.
It may be one of the 5 worst trades of the decade, but I’m pretty sure Wren has one of those in the win column as well, acquring JJ and the minor league OF for 1-year of a $7 million Edgar Renteria.
January 4th, 20124:40 pm
Angelos or Liberty Media.. give me LM all day. And Seattle Braves, you are right, that Jones or Upton would add to the speed and making Prado an extremely valuable piece to spell the OF and Chipper. However not at the price it would take to get either one. Raleigh, yeah the O’s have had several players that Angelos refused to trade no matter what. Brian Roberts is the other one that comes to mind. Allegedly there were a couple of unbelievable offers for Roberts a few yrs ago and Angelos would not sign off on it.
January 4th, 20124:44 pm
Angelos or Liberty Media.. give me LM all day. – Ray
Glad to see someone bring up this point. We complain all the time about how we don’t like corporate ownership, and we wish a rich individual would buy the team. While I’d certainly like the team to have a larger payroll, I’d take our situation 10 times out of 10 over having a meddling owner like Angelos, or worse, a swindler like Frank McCourt. While Liberty doesn’t give the Braves the extra $5-$10 million a season that could make the team better, they have also refrained from doing major damage to the franchise, which isn’t something a handful of teams can’t say right now (Dodgers, Orioles, Mets, just to name 3).
True! From the tools and resources Wren has, he is doing a good job. To have the constraints of payroll and sorts, and be able to put this team out there to compete. Thats impressive.
As we all know, He has to be careful of what he does to not jeopardise the future. I wish he had a higher ceiling…
January 4th, 20124:45 pm
People’s its be real
Got to go
January 4th, 20124:46 pm
2nd Tex was a salary dump. We were not going to resign him, and neitrher were the Angles. We also were not going to make the playoffs with him. Only debate is, were the players received + the money saved > or< the value of the draft choices…an unknowable question. BTW, if a better deal was available, I have confidence Wren would have done it.
January 4th, 20124:47 pm
Braves get no one of circumstance to give fans the slightest bit of hope.4th place tools.Enough with these wet dream line ups that consist of players Braves will never get.Think of the bright side.They got a 9 man rotation.
January 4th, 20124:49 pm
Only debate is, were the players received + the money saved > or< the value of the draft choices…an unknowable question.
Yeah, I guess. Still cranks my motor that the kid the Angels drafted with a Tex pick was Mike Trout. What not only cranks it but revs it past the redline is the fact that Trout was still on the board when the Braves picked their first polished college lefty.
January 4th, 20124:50 pm
RC we were spoiled by the later days of Turner. When he first took over it was a joke as were the Yanks with Steinbrenner. Almost at the same time frame, they both backed out and let their baseball people do THEIR jobs and things turned around. Many of the top GM’s refuse to go to Baltimore simply because of Angelos. Yes I would like to see the Braves around 98-105m. It would give us more flexibility when it comes to trades and FA’s.
January 4th, 20124:51 pm
I agree that Wren would have done a better deal, if he though there was a better deal. However, I feel like he severely handcuffed himself by saying that the Braves had to get a 1st baseman back in the trade, because that eliminated many teams that might have traded for him. Instead of having such a short-term focus, I wish Wren would have just tried to get the best package possible, and call someone up from AAA to finish out the season at 1b if that’s what it took.
However, I really think he either undervalued the draft picks, or severly overvalued Casey Kotchman. Probably a combination of the two.
For what it’s worth, 1 of the 2 draft picks the Angels acquired from offering Texiera arbitration was the one they used to draft Mike Trout.
Lew: You took my point a couple miles further down the road than I had in mind.
Well, naturally Lew. It’s the blog.
January 4th, 20124:52 pm
Efrim: And it’s official. That 2nd Tex trade was the worst of the last five years, imo.
The crapiness of that trade was official as soon as Kotchman put on a Braves uniform.
scoots – IF the Braves could have, and would have drafted Trout…well that tips the scales, doesn’t it.
BTW, I thought you were still in NC. No?
January 4th, 20124:53 pm
RC: Scheurholz was only GM for the 1st Tex trade, acquiring him from the Rangers, which actually wasn’t as bad as the 2nd one IMO.
The second was easily worse. Easily. That first move was a good one that just didn’t get us the gold like we hoped. The second one stunk to high heaven and still stinks now. Mark Teixeira for Casey friggin Kotchman. What a friggin bad joke.
Got all nolie with those posts.
January 4th, 20124:54 pm
raleigh, I’m still in NC, yes. Just down in FL for the bowl game.
What the hell? Was Marek not on the 40 man roster? Or the 60 day DL? I want to say there are only 35 on the 40 man roster right now anyway. Marek was knocking on the door before the injury. Eric Cordier and Todd Redmond are not.
RC – Fair enough, and well said.
And that polished lefty was?
January 4th, 20124:55 pm
Yeah, I could use a couple minor league signings to hold me over until July….
Wren’s had some good moves in the past no doubt. A solid GM. Free agency hasn’t been kind to him, but it is in his trades where he shines in my opinion.
-Edgar Renteria for Jurrjens and Gorkys Hernandez
-Jose Asceno for Wil Ohman and Omar Infante
-Both the Javy Vazquez trades especially the 2nd one
-Omar Infante and Mike Dunn for Dan Uggla plus the extension
-Schafer and prospects for Bourn
Gotta be happy with these deals if you’re Atlanta as they have maintained their core pitchers and positional players
January 4th, 20124:56 pm
scoots – Gotcha. I always could tell you were a man of good taste.
28% of the people voting on the AJC page are just………….. stupid. Don’t know another way to put it.
You still beating that Austin Jackson drum?
Still cranks my motor that the…
That whole thing was a complete failure. Teixeira for friggin Kotchman.
Even the Mets got a decent return for 2 months of an over-the-hill, oft-injured Beltran.
January 4th, 20124:58 pm
Good run down of Wren’s trades. I’m also trying to think of any prospect Wren has traded to go on and have great success elsewhere. I guess the one that’s had the most success to this point has to be Charlie Morton, right?
(Before anyone brings it up, I said “prospects”. It’s quite obvious that Texiera and Soriano each had success at their new destinations. Escobar too.)
January 4th, 20124:59 pm
I want a risky, prep school, RH flamethrower with a high ceiling. Big bust potential too. That’s fine. Just get me some velocity and projection with #21 on June 4th, 2012.
January 4th, 20125:00 pm
Great point. And Beltran couldn’t even be offered arbitration, meaning that Mets had even less leverage than the Braves did with Tex.
January 4th, 20125:01 pm
And to think, all I kept reading was that the Braves were looking for a first baseman back in trade because they just COULDN’T finish 72-90 with Julio Franco and Scott Thorman at first. And of course, they weren’t able to participate in the offseason the following year for position players. JUST HAD to get a first baseman back for Tex. Awful.
Just get me some velocity and projection with #21 on June 4th, 2012.
I project the velocity of the delivery of the descriptive phrase “toolsy player” or “polished pitcher” will be very high after that #21 pick is official.
January 4th, 20125:02 pm
I want a bat. A corner OF, 6-3, 190 lb. 18-year old with the frame to add weight. Preferably a switch-hitter, but I won’t be greedy.
January 4th, 20125:04 pm
JUST HAD to get a first baseman back for Tex. Awful.
The Braves JUST HAVE to get back a CF in any deal for Jurrjens or Prado as well. Is there a proportional talent equivalent disparity we can find out there? That’ll be your Spring Training pick up.
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