10:10 pm December 19, 2011, by David O'Brien
December 21st, 20114:47 pm
This is all a conspiracy to take our attention off football
The inventory of unwatchable bowl games has done that by itself.
JonHeymanCBS Jon Heyman
oswalt waiting for gio/jerrjens to shake out. nats, marlins, red sox, yanks, jays on radar. w/ yu, rangers seem unlikely
December 21st, 20114:49 pm
noles, what about just a fast baserunner. Like first to third on a single and first to home on a double sort of thing and taking the extra base overall, scoring on sac flies, etc. That has value, imo.
about the only time I ever even think about pointyball is when someone mentions it on my baseball blog
December 21st, 20114:50 pm
DOB, think there is any chance in heck Wren would trade Jurrjens in division to a team like the Nationals?
December 21st, 20114:51 pm
CB was bangin the drum for a swap of Mike Morse/Jair Jurrjens. Not sure I’d want to do that though off Morse’s perhaps fluky year.
December 21st, 20114:54 pm
sure speed helps a lot as long as the player has the other skills. I’m just not thinking that I find a lot of confidence in RC’s combo,I prefer to look at them separately and do my own adjustments I guess.
oh and with a lead off hitt OBP is indeed more important that OPS, but even leading off the ability to hit for extra bases is something of an advantage if in no other way than that a double is a more secure thing than a single and then having to be successful at stealing
I have to imagine if you’re the Red Sox, Jair Jurrjens would look a whole lot better than Joe Saunders, Paul Maholm, Bartolo Colon, [insert 5th starter type], even with the price in prospects + durability issues.
When we start naming Gonzalez, Garza, Danks, Davis/Niemann, Oswalt and Kuroda is when things get a little iffy, imo.
December 21st, 20114:55 pm
efrim, ive softened my stance a little bit on signing michael bourne, just because his defense is so valuable. i think id be willing to offer him the 4 years $38mil deal no matter what he does offensively this season, outside of getting a leg injury of something.
next offseason there are several pretty good CFers on the free agent market. that could hold down the asking price slightly, dont you think? i certainly dont see it going over either 5 years or $12mil. if it can come down from there, it might be worth doing for atlanta.
December 21st, 20114:56 pm
Yeah, SLG is still important. Getting on base and hitting for extra bases is the #1 way to score runs – bottom line.
Efrim, fluky? Nah, I believe he is the real thing. 2010 numbers were pretty good also. I believe they might want more than JJ.
December 21st, 20114:58 pm
next offseason there are several pretty good CFers on the free agent market. that could hold down the asking price slightly, dont you think?
Ah, but how many other teams have money coming off of the books and a low guarantee of salary in 2012? That’s the question. I haven’t had a chance to take an in depth look at all of the teams in the majors, but I’d venture to guess that the Braves aren’t the only ones with loot to spend.
December 21st, 20115:01 pm
CB, you could be right. Over his last 868 plate appearances all for the Nats, he’s hit .298/.357/.539, 142 OPS+. I’d just need to see one more year, and if it continues, he sure as heck is costing more than JJ. So, Wren would have to take the risk of believing the power will continue – he doesn’t really walk much, so you have to hope the power will continue.
December 21st, 20115:04 pm
only thing I see with Morse is that he is not a good defensive player at first or right, might be fine in left though,
December 21st, 20115:07 pm
I might trade JJ for him if they would
December 21st, 20115:08 pm
nolie,910 OPS. Who cares about slightly below defense? Ha
pretty much true CB
December 21st, 20115:09 pm
SB don’t help the Braves much because they don’t know how to consistantly play fundamentals well. Bourn steals 2nd w/ less than an out and you’re almost in shock when the next guy gets him over to 3rd.
December 21st, 20115:10 pm
Plus Morse was a SS when he came up……………. BINGO! There’s your backup SS!
I’d sure do a Jurrjens for Morse deal (and might even add a mid prospect) if the Nats were interested.
December 21st, 20115:11 pm
I’m just ready for some baseball dammit
This is soooooo freakin boring!
small ball is for looser teams what can’t do anything else
December 21st, 20115:13 pm
Plus, you gotta love a guy who’s nickname is “The Beast”
yup thats what we need a 6′5″ 230 pound shortstop……..
could play the guy just about anywhere.
December 21st, 20115:15 pm
can’t imagine the gNats trading him to us though , since I think he would help the Braves more than JJ might help the gNats
and the Cardinals have been swindled………RJ Swindle.
December 21st, 20115:18 pm
Adam Jones rumor for Prado/JJ/Prospect … hey, let’s talk about it.
Guess that’s our food through mid-January until we read “Wren has offer for Jurrjens; not impressed though”
December 21st, 20115:21 pm
I did not read through all 15 pages. But why have the Braves not signed Jeff Keppinger plays 2b, 3b and SS. He was non-tendered by the Giants last week and would be a good backup to Tyler Pastornicky (sorry if I misspelled). The Braves should also go out and sign Cody Ross. Did well under Fredi while playing in Florida. Not to mention he has an alright bat. Then sign Jason Isringhausen and Dan Wheeler for the bullpen because Moylan, Sherrill and Linebrink need to be replaced. I am sure all of these guys can come on the cheap and they don’t have to trade JJ or Prado. Just a thought.
December 21st, 20115:22 pm
And the Royals have been Mijaris’ed …
December 21st, 20115:25 pm
Keppinger is not a very good defensive infielder. And we really don’t need those retreads for the bullpen. We have Kimbrell, Venters, O’Flaherty, Medlen, Varvaro, Martinez, Vizcaino, Gearrin, Asencio and probably Moylan.
But many of us like Cody Ross as a big 4th outfielder pickup.
December 21st, 20115:46 pm
Is there a such thing as a BIG 4th OF’r pickup?
December 21st, 20115:48 pm
Just sign Cody Ross and Ryan Theriot and be done with it. Play Ball.
December 21st, 20116:06 pm
unbelievable – You would certainly think so considering how much moaning, wailing and gnashing of teeth over none being traded for or signed yet.
OK, it looks like the blog has slowed to a crawl this afternoon.
December 21st, 20116:07 pm
Any big plans for the holidays?
December 21st, 20116:12 pm
Wayne – Nope – quiet and de -stressing is the only thing on the agenda – and lots of art work. Doesn’t even look like it will be a white Christmas.
December 21st, 20116:13 pm
Merry Christmas, Dave. Thanks for all your hard work this year.
From my law and business career, I can understand how difficult it is to get information from FW. That’s surely ownership’s choice. I wonder though whether FW reads this blog from time to time just to get a few good ideas. If he does, and he should not admit to it, we are all the better.
Again, thanks. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year.
December 21st, 20116:21 pm
Ain’t that the truth. The playoff debate will take care of itself, if this trend continues. I’ll be curious to watch the Nielson ratings for tonight’s LA Tech/TCU shootout.
Ragin’Cajuns chasing Horned Frogs sounds like an episode of Buck Commander with Adam LaRoche.
Frank from KS (now in CO)
December 21st, 20116:24 pm
DSI @ 3:54 – “Bourn will have to hit a lot better than he did when he arrived to be worth 11+ million per year for 5 years. I’m just not seeing it. We don’t have enough payroll room for a speedy CF with a lower OBP for 11 million per………….”
Well, as the old saying goes Wayne, errr…DSI, things happen when you least EXPECT them too.
DS – When is the last time you remember Utah being this dry on December 21?
December 21st, 20116:25 pm
I don’t get it? Have I missed something?
As we know, a supportive, positive and strong fan base is the most important factor in determining the relevance and ongoing viability of a team. Without this, a teams’ relevance to the region, ability to attract players, and long-term financial sustainability is severely compromised. While the majority of fans on this blog are rabid, the reality is that most Braves fans are not so hardy. Frank Wren may believe some tinkering here and there is all that is needed for the Braves to get back to the Series, and he may be right, but in public relations, perception is everything. It would be disastrous for the Braves following their epic collapse this year and the moves made by other teams in the division to tinker around the edges with Ross, Cedeno, Smith and Co. That would be about as popular amongst the fan base as a Phillies dude coming on our blog and writing: “Remember Lenny Dykstra- game 5- 1993″.
I don’t believe that management should always get involved in making a popular move and sucking up to the fan base- they are the professionals and should be left to make the decisions. But, there are times when exceptions need to be made for standard protocol, and the events this season and resultant moves of other teams in our division are such an exception. The general fan base are already angry and disenchanted about how our season ended. Given this, if the Braves enter the season with little buzz and excitement, there will be a substantial drop off in attendance, and alienation of fans who feel the team are not committed to doing what it takes to win it all. I’m not talking about reality here, I’m talking about perception.
I know, you know, and many of this blog know that FW and the Braves are very much committed to winning, but that’s kind of irrelevant, isn’t it? If the average fan doesn’t feel that way, it’s going to damage the brand, revenue streams, and reduction in payroll.
This is the time that FW has to take some major risks and make a big splash to get at least one player who will reignite the passion and interest of the fan base, and buy back some goodwill. Can you imagine the reaction if FW tinkers around the edges and the team fails to make the finals in 2012? Then you have a major PR problem. On the other hand, if FW does what it takes to make some major moves and the team still fails, the goodwill he would’ve built up will cushion the public backlash. As I said, perception is everything.
While the thrust of my argument is that FW has to make some moves to reignite the fan base and not alienate them, I also think the team as it’s currently configured is not good enough. There has been a lot of upbeat talk about bounce back seasons from JHey and Co, but what happens if there isn’t? Alternatively, there may be bounce back seasons from some players and regression from others. I’m not sure staying pat, putting a positive spin on things, and tinkering away on the edges is going to get it done in 2012. But as I said earlier, what I think or anyone else on this blog thinks is a moot point… it’s about the average fan who fills the coffers of the organisation.
If the Bravos make a trade for an impact player, obviously it needs to be for someone that makes sense. I like the idea of getting an impact player like McCutchen who would well and truly ignite the fan base. I think the Braves need to make a number of trades. The first two I’d start off with:
Prado or Jurrjens to Colorado for Smith and Wheeler.
Then, Bourn, Teheran and Smith to the Pirates for McCutchen, with the Braves throwing in cash. It’s a lot to give up, but we’re not going to get someone of McCutchen’s quality otherwise. The main loss would be Teheran. I think the Pirates would find it difficult to say no to a package that includes an immediate and future replacement for McCutchen, as well as a number 1 pitcher. I’d then sign McCutchen to a long-term deal. This move would well and truly ignite the fan base and regain some lost goodwill.
PS Breaking Bad is a major health risk… it’s as addictive as crack cocaine (thanks for the recommendation… didn’t know it existed til you mentioned it on the blog).
McFann O O o
December 21st, 20116:32 pm
But the Braves say the movie’s title could do damage to the team’s brand, the Stich Kingdom blog reports. Though the team does not possess any trademark on the singular form of the name, lawyers argue it’s been used for team merchandising and in reference to players (i.e. former Brave Tom Glavine).
Sorry, Braves, but that just seems a little bit…lame…? It’s not like the movie is about baseball…or even Indians…
December 21st, 20116:33 pm
I am surprised that the Red Sox have not been more aggressive in the pitching market. Their pitching situation was horrendous at the end of the season.
December 21st, 20116:45 pm
Been pretty dry? Haven’t been home much lately.
?? Not sure what your point is? Do you think Bourn is worth more than I do? Do you think he’ll sign this off season. Highly doubtful with Scott Boras as his agent.
December 21st, 20116:46 pm
Shopping with my father is not good for my nerves…
December 21st, 20116:53 pm
But you’ll be better for it………..
December 21st, 20116:59 pm
I don’t know how he manages to drive without hitting anything. Or shop without having a breakdown.
December 21st, 20117:00 pm
If you think you’re having a bad day, read this story………..
December 21st, 20117:01 pm
Bravo Nam is a blog vet. What’s up old timer?
Frank Wren may believe some tinkering here and there is all that is needed for the Braves to get back to the Series, and he may be right, but in public relations, perception is everything. It would be disastrous for the Braves following their epic collapse this year and the moves made by other teams in the division to tinker around the edges with Ross, Cedeno, Smith and Co. That would be about as popular amongst the fan base as a Phillies dude coming on our blog and writing: “Remember Lenny Dykstra- game 5- 1993″….Bravo Nam
as Theo and a few other GMs have said over the years, theuy love their fans and appreciate them, but their goal is a winning team not to pay attention to what specifics the fans want . That way lies madness as anyone can see by reading all the really really silly suggestions that we all spout here from time to time.
If Smilin’ Frank & the gang thinks he has a winner, no matter how that is achieved that’s what matters most.
December 21st, 20117:03 pm
DSI – well, he might, considering…there’s going to be more money coming off the books next off-season and for the ones thinkin the Braves might have a chance at Hamilton from the Rangers….HAHA!
He ain’t leaving Texas. I mean, why should he? They’ve won the AL West the last two seasons, and will probably be in the running again THIS season.
Got a feeling it’ll be sometime in mid/late January before Wren makes a move. Old white haired grinch
December 21st, 20117:18 pm
ajcbraves David O’Brien
While back, many people here and on my blog said #Braves should trade for Adam Jones. Once Braves tried, majority howl that he stinks.
Well, I wasn’t one of those peeps. However, I do think there are way too many people here that wouldn’t like any acquisition. Too many people who dislike pretty much every hitter unless they are OPS’n 850-900. Not many of those around anymore.
December 21st, 20117:19 pm
One thing for sure the Braves are not going to be on the top 50 songs. Check the Worst Rendition of Jingle Bells, Courtesy of the Atlanta Braves. Please trade them all.
Status Quo Blows
December 21st, 20117:21 pm
I can hear it now 25 years ago…. “Mama come here Grienke took a stinky”.
December 21st, 20117:22 pm
Hey CTB. Yeah, thanks. Not bad. After seven years in Vietnam and three in Cambodia, I’m now back in Australia. Hoping to head back over there in 18 months time. I still follow the blog each day but normally don’t make a comment. It’s good to still see some old-timers blogging regularly. Also good to see that the infamous Robert is making his presence felt less these days. I’ve always wondered what happened to Robert (Justice is Best)… haven’t seen him on here for a long time.
Nolie, look, I fully understand and agree that a team should not allow itself to be run on public perception. My point was that occasionally there are exceptional circumstances when a change in this protocol is warranted. I believe this is the time based on the reasons I’ve stated.
December 21st, 20117:23 pm
if you are talking about trading an 800 hitting Prado or an AS pitcher Jj (even with injury concerns), I think it is reasonable to be real choosy about whom you want to see added. If not satisfactory don’t trade.
December 21st, 20117:25 pm
Everyday I check in here hopeing FW has found us a SS, but nothing happens. We should have kept A-GON till PASTORNICKY is ready for prime time.
December 21st, 20117:30 pm
they said all along that they were not gonna spend 4 mil or two years on a SS George, Gonzo was gone from the gitgo it seems
December 21st, 20117:31 pm
That payroll sweet spot ain’t doing it, either….
“Free agency is so inefficient,” McGuirk says. “It’s the easiest way to waste a franchise’s money. … Anything that’s happened from 2000 on is tough to justify, and we learned that ourselves. Our payroll was going up like a rocket ship, and the fans stopped coming. That seemed a major statement as to what this franchise should be about.” – From Bradley’s Blog, July 21, 2007
2000 – attendance 3,234, 304
2007 – attendance 2,745,207
2008 – attendance 2,532,834
2009 – attendance 2,373,631
2010 – attendance 2,510,119
2011 – attendance 2,372,940
December 21st, 20117:35 pm
My point was that occasionally there are exceptional circumstances when a change in this protocol is warranted. I believe this is the time based on the reasons I’ve stated NB
yeah I understand, I just don’t agree. and I’m pretty certain that they don’t either. once you embark on that slippery slope it keeps getting easier and easier to slide deeper. I sure do not want my team responding to fan suggestion.
They are the professionals and we aren’t. If they don’t get it done over the years they are gone.
anyway I couldn’t disagree more with what you said, but that’s just me and I can understand why some fans feel that way, I just don’t want to see it happen.
December 21st, 20117:39 pm
We’ll have to agree to disagree on this one, Nolie… that’s fine. Both you and I will stand by this team no matter what, and will place our faith in the management. Bottom line though is that we’re not representative of the fan base… all I’m saying is that sometimes it is justified to vary your MO for the future good of the club… in terms of revenue and not eroding your supporter base.
December 21st, 20117:42 pm
I could be wrong, maybe PASTORNICKY will be another FURCAL,able to step right into starting role.
December 21st, 20117:45 pm
Nah, not just that. Pretty much people finding any way to bash a hitter. I mean, people actually sit here and knock Nick Swisher – who I think is the hitter with the least possible amount of warts out there. You’re not going to find these guys all over the place. It’s very hard.
Then there are some who carry an absolute refusal to take themselves out of the Braves POV and place themselves in the opposing teams shoes. Rarely happens here with many.
too many people who dislike pretty much every hitter unless they are OPS’n 850-900
Seems natural. Though it is nice to have that clown OPSing 617 just to keep it real.
December 21st, 20117:49 pm
well Swisher’s warts are pretty offensive to traditionalists – low BA and many Ks- so although I agree mostly with you ,and i would like the guy, I understand why many folks do not
December 21st, 20117:50 pm
Yeah, I just think there are way too many instances of people overvaluing Braves players and undervaluing opposing players.
Ralph Not Mort
December 21st, 20117:52 pm
Go Marlins !
December 21st, 20117:54 pm
too many instances of people overvaluing Braves players and undervaluing opposing players….Efrim
sure I agree completely. but of course the same thing happens on every team’s boards. few fans are rational, that’s why they are called fans, and the main reason that I disagreed with BN
December 21st, 20117:59 pm
few fans are rational, that’s why they are called fans, and the main reason that I disagreed with BN
Did not read your conversation with him. I was more speaking about DOB’s Adam Jones comment. Every player is going to be hated by some portion of the fan base unless they are a superstar like Pujols, Braun, Sabathia, etc. And as to the rational nature of fans, it’s not just black and white – I know plenty of rational fans who root for their team and are still knowledgeable peeps that see both sides.
December 21st, 20118:01 pm
yeah Ef, I’m not disagreeing with you, much of that is true, just expounding a bit cause I’m in the mood to hear myself talk
December 21st, 20118:03 pm
nolie, you’re a knowledgeable feller … what’s your thoughts on Braves making a move before Saturday?
December 21st, 20118:04 pm
however I find it hard to understand how you could pass up the opportunity to read one of my conversations and thus learn a lot
no prob, noles. I hear ya. Quiet and no news to speak of. Here’s a ridiculous question: If you had trade discussions and they were pretty serious with a team, but you knew Christmas/New Years was coming up, would you try a but harder to get it done within the next two or three days? Makes sense to me, which is what I am hoping for with Gio…..so we can finally see what happens with Jair.
December 21st, 20118:05 pm
cabravesfan I don’t know how he manages to drive without hitting anything. Or shop without having a breakdown.
We went shopping with Dad last night…only real issue was the traffic…lord! Like everybody was going to the mall!…
December 21st, 20118:07 pm
Me and you Efrim … seeing eye to eye. Funny, we both ask basically the same question to nolie. Tell me that’s not odd.
Hah! I asked nolie the same question.
I’d love to stay and blog some more today, but instead I think I’ll go and join the masses driving to the MALL!!!
December 21st, 20118:08 pm
It is, CBT. Let’s hear his response. Better be good.
December 21st, 20118:09 pm
I might try to speed it up but not to the extent that I would make a concession that I might regret. I do think that Frank is a get ‘er done kinda guy and usually tries to accomplish what he wants to as early as possible. As far as b4 Christmas i guess it would depend on how far along it was. ‘
One reason I can think of for it not to happen is all the paperwork that needs to be completed and how long MLB will be available to get that done .
In other words, I got no real idea and am totally guessing
Seven teams (BOS, KC, WAS, SD, CIN, PIT, COL) didn’t have pitcher reach the 200-inning plateau in 2011
Yikes. And none of those teams made the playoffs.
December 21st, 20118:11 pm
We were buying something for him to give to my mom- we don’t trust him do do it alone- and we had to go to 2 different malls to find it. Plus it was the middle of the afternoon and he claimed he had to get back to work at some point…still, the whole thing took like an hour and a half. Not too bad considering.
I also got some new shampoo out of it so I’m happy
December 21st, 20118:13 pm
so those 7 teams(Boston being the most surprising to me anyway), although they could use pitching, might very well not see JJ as an asset who would fix that problem
December 21st, 20118:15 pm
It was a stellar response from nolie, Efrim.
Sure, didn’t think of paperwork,etc. that goes into to these things. Depends on how far along they are in talks, that’s true.
I’m a selfish little prick and I would LOVE a move made before the Hollidays. If not then you know we’ll be waiting a little while longer. UGH
December 21st, 20118:18 pm
yeah most all of us want a Christmas present from the Bravos.
however I an’t been all that good this year so I hope I don’t hold ol’ Santa back and disappoint y’all
December 21st, 20118:21 pm
off for a bit. seeya later
Jurrjens is going to be seen as a plus by a team that already has 2-3 good pitchers and wants to gamble a bit on him being a big plus in the 3-4 slot. A #2 pitching in the 3-4.
Who is that team?
I still think we might be much better off to just keep our guys, and sign a guy like Cody Ross to cover us in the OF.
December 21st, 20118:22 pm
nolie,I will wish you a great Christmas present. I wish that you and I will be wishing each other a Merry Christmas next year at this time.
December 21st, 20118:29 pm
Haha! That’s cute… We got Mom’s presents as well—thankfully they had just what we were looking for plus a couple extra things…
December 21st, 20118:30 pm
Crazy to me to see so many teams with serious pitching needs not make any moves. Boston, Toronto New York AL(I think), Colorado, Washington all really need at least a mid-rotation type. Looks like three of them(Boston, Toronto, Washington) are willing to trade prospects. I wouldn’t rule out New York or Colorado, but I just don’t think we match up well with them.
December 21st, 20118:46 pm
Seems to me that a lot of clubs are being very cautious about their pitching staffs. Are they waiting for the price to drop? Maybe.
As much fun as it is to get a few changes for your team, it still might be smart to stand pat. We really don’t have anybody that we would want to deal, that is overly desirable to other teams. Beachy and Minor are still big question marks. Hanson and Jurrjens have injury concerns. Huddy ain’t going nowhere.
So really, the players we have that others want are our prospects. And those are the guys we don’t want to deal.
December 21st, 20118:57 pm
DS1, sigh … yep. Reallly just the perfect way to put things. We’re not the best of blog buds, but I give credit where it’s due and you hit the nail on the head at 8:46.
December 21st, 20118:58 pm
I forgot to mention earlier that I would be very reluctant to trade Prado and think that trading him could really come back to bite the Braves on the butt. Jurrjens on the other hand is different… his injury history, Boras as agent, and it seems when he has been healthy he has arguably pitched better than his skill set woud suggest means he’s a guy I would be happier to trade and less likely to come back to haunt us.
December 21st, 20118:59 pm
So, I was under the impression that the Braves hadn’t signed any International players of significance since February of 2010 – Edward Salcedo – but I came across this and I completely missed DOB writing about it: http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2010/07/03/braves-sign-dominican-pitching-prospect/?cxntfid=blogs_atlanta_braves_blog
He pitched his first year as a 17 year old down in the DSL: http://web.minorleaguebaseball.com/milb/stats/stats.jsp?sid=milb&t=p_pbp&pid=606291
Good stuff. We apparently didn’t get any this year, but that’s cool. In 2010, Braves spent the 9th most in players internationally with 3.28 million: http://www.baseballamerica.com/today/prospects/international-affairs/2011/2611345.html
December 21st, 20119:04 pm
Efrim, to be fair I don’t hate any player that didn’t OPS .850. I don’t mind guys who OPS .750, even if they aren’t great defensively. I just don’t want to trade a .800 OPSer for him or top of the rotation starter.
December 21st, 20119:13 pm
Deadspin is mocking our wonderful Braves!!!!!!!!
The White Sox have agreed to sign the left-hander to a five-year, $65MM contract extension
I guess maybe they trade Gavin Floyd now.
Rob from SC
I am very interested to see how the Braves and Reds progress over next few seasons. The Braves have held on to their great young pitching prospects, while the Reds gave up a lot for Mat Latos.
I think Cincinnati way overpaid, and agree with the Braves keeping their pitching… Guess we will find out in the next few years.
December 21st, 20119:14 pm
December 21st, 20119:17 pm
He pitched his first year as a 17 year old down in the DSL…
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