12:00 pm November 16, 2011, by David O'Brien
November 16th, 20115:32 pm
Bill James has in the past suggested ways to evaluate who should get in and the ones I saw put Murphy across the line for induction. I applaud Schuerholz as it seems clear to me that the voters have a very different opinion. It may not help much, but it doesn’t hurt to try. One thing that I think has really hurt Murphy is that he faded very badly in his late 30s and he didn’t reach 400 homers. Voters like it best when players hit specific targets. Murph came close (398 homers) but a miss is a miss.
November 16th, 20115:40 pm
Dave, I’ve been a Braves fan since 1983. Murph was always my fav player.
Story about his kindness. My father used to know a guy who worked for the Yankees. The Braves had come into NY to play the Mets, and my father’s ffriend got me into the Braves clubhouse to get autographs. I went around, getting some, and happened to mention to someone that Dale Murphy was my idol, and wanted to get his autograph. Murph was in the trainer’s room, and someone told him that a kid who idolized him wanted his autograph. He came out of the trainer’s room, shook my hand, and signed the ball. I was only 14 when this happened, so he looked huge to me, even though I’m 6 feet tall now.
I think Murph has unfortunately been overlooked because of the bad teams the Braves had during most of his career, For several years, from 1980 to 1987, he was the dominant home run hitter in baseball.
I hope Murph gets in. Even if his numbers are “on the bubble”, the writers should also look at the all around good guy he was, and vote him in.
November 16th, 20115:45 pm
Standing Ovation for Ken Stallings and P. Bull Terrier… very good posts.
Ken Stallings – you need to be heading up this campaign for sure. If we could put your words with Gary Carter’s perseverance to get in, Murphy could start getting his plaque and speech ready.
November 16th, 20115:53 pm
Dale Murphy belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame. This letter should have been written ten years ago. Now, it’s too little too late. In the 1980’s if you asked anyone to name the best players in the game, the answer would be Andre Dawson or Dale Murphy. Andre is in. Dale should be too.
November 16th, 20115:54 pm
waaaaay toooo long if the offering of this acclamation of murph who stood up to his eras peers over many years. i suggest there has been roid abuse since the late sixties to beco me prevalent when they became more tageted but in no way could murph be considered a participant. bonds was great but would he have tailed like murph without roids? the astro turf took its toll on murph as well and his demise was part of it as it did others of the era that had careers cut short by knee issues.
November 16th, 20116:07 pm
If Murph gets in, George Foster deserves it, too. (not sure either should be in, btw)
November 16th, 20116:08 pm
Not that it will matter, as he’ll never be elected. I’m already on record here repeatedly saying that the damn writers aren’t going to vote Chipper in either, no matter what he does. — Phil
Let’s make a friendly wager. I say Chipper is elected on the first ballot. You say he’ll never be elected. Tell you what, I’ll make it easier on you, since “never” is ridiculous (he’ll obviously be elected). I’ll give you never AND all years except the first ballot, and we’ll see who is right.
November 16th, 20116:30 pm
Only reason Murph not in is Murph himself.Any other player would have demanded a trade to perennial contender after years of carrying his team.Dale Murphy was best player in basball for years with no protection for him in the line up.A converted catcher,back to back MVP, gold gloves,30-30 when no one did it.Serious power in a dead ball no ped pitcher dominant decade.Murph never complained and just did his job better than everyone else.No doubt his numbers would be better if he got out of Atlanta with some game left.Instead he accepted a trade at the end to make room for Dave justice.Pure class.
November 16th, 20116:41 pm
Dale should be the standard bearer for the HOF, period. you will not find a better representative for our kids to look up to than this. You want your child growing up to play the game, you want them looking at Murphy for character, period. Nice of John to pick up pen and paper. What took so long??
November 16th, 20116:45 pm
November 16th, 2011
Murph’s numbers support his election. What has kept his vote totals artificially low was where he played.
Murph earned a spot in the Hall.
What drugs are you taking? His stats do not support his inclusion into the HOF. And where he played kept his numbers low?! He played in the Launching Pad! I could care less what he did in his first 12 years, which wasn’t that great anyway. Over his entire career, he was very mediocre. It makes no difference what a nice guy he was and how he has been a great ambassador for the game. If he makes it, it will further dilute the excellence required for future players to make it.
November 16th, 20117:03 pm
If Dale would of played in NY, Boston, LA, or Chicago he would of been 1st ballot Hall of Fame…
November 16th, 20117:05 pm
Jerry….Read the facts! Probably the only eligible 2 Time MVP of his league not to be in the Hall of Fame…Give me a break…He may of played in the Launching Pad but Sandberg played on a high school field
November 16th, 20117:12 pm
Murphy played mostly in the infamous Launching Pad, & then played in homer-haven Colorado & he still couldn’t manage 2 HRS to reach 400 !
Nice guy, yes. Hall of Famer, No.
November 16th, 20117:55 pm
kudos to Schuerholz!
November 16th, 201110:16 pm
I get tired of how people keep talking about how good a person Murph is…and he IS…but those who watched him play know he was an offensive and defensive killer on the field
Wilford D. Iabeeetus
November 16th, 201111:10 pm
Chipper being elected on the first ballot and Murph expiring only highlights what’s wrong with HOF balloting.
That's my muffican jam
November 16th, 201111:52 pm
It wouldn’t make or break my day if he was elected but I think the big thing with Murph was he had a couple of things against him. He came up in 76, right in time for the premier RF Reggie Jackson was just warming up and by 77-78 had some playoff heroics and became almost iconic with the Yankees. The other is Murph left the Braves in 90 right when they were about to turn things around and become relevant. All the years in between he had the misfortune of playing on some of the worse teams in MLB. Again, his stats are probably on par with other RF’s in the Hall but his contemporaries included Andre “the Hawk” Dawson, Dave Winfield and Tony Gwynn. So for those voting would probably say he was a good player with a lifetime .265 BA and also well over 1740 strike outs.
November 17th, 201112:31 am
I know this article is about Murph, but I also want to say this.
To the guy who says Chipper will never be elected. I think he;s dead wrong.
Chipper is goin to retire with a 300 or vey close to it battn average, and almost 500 homers. He was one of the premier home run hitters in baseball from about 1996 until the last couple of years.
Chipper will get in on the first ballot,or. if he plays ong enough for his career av to fall below 300, and has less than 500 homers it MIGHT take until he 2nd ballot.
The Braves will have four HOF’s from the division title streak years. Maddux, /Glavine, Smoltz, and Chipper. Thats pretty good for a team to have four HOF’s from one era.
November 17th, 20111:18 am
honor long overdue one of the best, nicest, greatest players who, along with Mike Schmidt DOMINATED the hitting statistics in the 80s….2 MVPs, 7 All Star games, all those gold gloves, silver sluggers, and the nicest guy in baseball….lot just as nice, none better…..helping baseball now with his foundation “Don’t Cheat”….for young ball players not to use performance enhancing drugs….a very positive role model for the kids and BASEBALL
Morning Reads for Thursday, November 17th — Peach Pundit
November 17th, 20116:35 am
[...] A few that I like… – South Park has been renewed through 2016, guaranteeing 20 years on the air. – The Salvation Army bell ringers will now take credit cards. – Murph should be in the Hall of Fame. [...]
November 17th, 20118:25 am
he has my vote if i could.. great playler and man!!!
November 17th, 20119:12 am
Dale Murphy, good guy. Good career numbers. Not a Hall of Famer.
November 17th, 20119:31 am
Murph was a great credit to the Braves both as a player and a person. But his stats don’t measure up for the Hall of Fame. In his last few years he became a sucker for the low outside pitch to the extent that it became pathetic. Sorry Dale, but that’s how I see it.
November 17th, 201110:18 am
No He will not make,or deserve the call to HOF,good player,but numbers don’t lie
November 17th, 201111:02 am
I think something very specific should be done to assist in Dale Murphy’s candidacy. And I think the AJC is in the best position to do it.
Use the average offensive numbers during the 1990’s to 2005 (the so-called steroids era) after Murphy had put up his monster stats. Then, look at the average numbers during the era Murphy dominated the National League. Once that is done, adjust Murphy’s numbers as a ratio and publish what it would take in the so-called steroid era for a player to make the same kind of achievement above his peers that Murphy did during the decade of the 1980’s.
Publish those numbers, and then let’s see what those who keep saying Murphy’s numbers don’t merit election have to say! The problem is too many people just cannot get past the offensive inflation that took place because of all the factors I previously listed. Apparently, they cannot reconcile it — they need numbers. So, let’s give them accurate numbers that reflect the way the game fundamentally changed during the steroids era.
You see, I remember those changes. I remember Pete Van Weiren, Skip Caray, and even Don Sutton at games talking about how much it changed. But, it seems people are obsessed about numbers devoid of context and are too young to understand when lots of pitching and hitting numbers from today would be dwarfed from bygone eras.
So, let’s have an “apples to apples” statistical comparison. My bet is that Murphy’s numbers, adjusted for steroids and ball park shrinkage, would be very eye popping!
November 17th, 201111:19 am
Chipper makes it on the first ballot.
November 17th, 201111:21 am
I loved the Murph when he was playing, think he is an outstanding individual, but frankly, his numbers just don’t add up for HOF admission. He had a really good career. But it wasn’t a HOF career.
November 17th, 201111:24 am
Murphy’s numbers are that of a good player, generally. But forget about comparing Murphy to players who followed him. Compare him to players (hitters) who were roughly contemporaries or proceeded him. He wasn’t close to a guy like Mike Schmidt, for instance.
Again Murphy’s a good guy and was a good talent for most of his career, but nothing on Hall of Fame scale.
November 17th, 201111:41 am
Having met Dale and followed his career, I’ve always felt he was deserving of Cooperstown. I firmly believe he led and continues to lead by example. Yes, his stats could be better, but when you add up his consistency, his hustle and his character, he more than qualifies for induction. He was and is still a strong role model.
Let’s take a look at George Foster versus Dale Murphy. Since they played most of their careers during the same time frame, it seems a fair basis for comparison.
HR: Foster (348), Murphy (398)
RBI: Foster (1239), Murphy (1266)
SLG: Foster (.480), Murphy (.469)
SB: Foster (51), Murphy (161)
2B: Foster (307), Murphy (350)
3B: Foster (47), Murphy (39)
BA: Foster (.274), Murphy (.265)
OBA: Foster (.338), Murphy (.346)
BB: Foster (666), Murphy (986)
Gold Gloves: Foster (0), Murphy (5)
Silver Sluggers: Foster (1), Murphy (4)
MVP: Foster (1), Murphy (2)
All Star: Foster (5), Murphy (7)
I think a few clear points should emerge here. Foster played 18 seasons from 1969 to 1986. Murphy played from 1976 to 1993. During the early 1970’s a number of the stadiums from the 1960’s (more hitter friendly) were replaced with the multi-purpose stadiums that dramatically increased the distances and helped cut down hitting, especially power numbers. However, it is overall a fair comparison.
Still, compare Foster’s stats to Murphy’s. Murphy leads by a clear margin in the one’s that count the most: HR’s, RBI’s, OBA, while the only one that matters where Foster leads is in slugging percentage. In terms of getting on base, scoring runs, Murphy leads in nearly every category, and by significant margins.
The defensive comparison is not even close! Foster had not a single gold glove. He was considered more of a defensive liability for the Big Red Machine vice an asset. Murphy was the best outfielder the Braves had and had a cannon arm legendary during his years with the Braves. He was given center field, while Foster was given left field, which is where the power sticks with poor glove and suspect arm are put! Everyone knows you put your best defensive outfielder in center field. Even when Murphy got old and his knees starting suffering, he was put in right field because he never lost that cannon arm that intimidates base runners from taking third base on a single.
That’s another problem with HOF voting. Too little emphasis is placed on defense, and pitching and defense are the two areas most vital to winning baseball games! That has always been true.
Now, let’s get modern and look at the trendy stat called WAR:
During his best years (1975-1981) Foster had a WAR of: 3.1, 5.0, 6.4, 4.7, 4.1, 3.2, and 3.9. He never again or before earned a WAR above 2.2 (which he did only once in 1985). Except for 1985, his WAR was consistently averaged the 1.0, which means he was overall an average baseball player.
During his best years (1980-1989) Murphy had a WAR of: 7.1, 1.6, 6.3, 7.2, 5.3, 5.3, 1.3, 7.5, 2.9, and 1.4. It is true that after 1989, Murphy’s WAR dropped terribly. But, Murphy had ten years where his WAR was above average, and for eight of those years his WAR was in elite status. Foster by comparison hit the 6.0 or higher mark (elite territory) only once in his career! Murphy hit the 7 plus mark three times! He also hit the 6 plus mark once more and the 5 plus mark twice more.
Let’s compare Murphy’s WAR to other outfielders already elected to the HOF:
Kirby Puckett: 7 plus (once), 6 plus (twice more), 5 plus (twice more): does not compare favorably to Murphy, does it?
Andre Dawson: 7 plus (once), 6 plus (thrice more), 5 plus (no more): does not compare favorably to Murphy, does it?
Reggie Jackson: 9 plus (once), 8 plus (once more), 7 plus (no more), 6 plus (twice more), 5 plus (twice more). Note: Jackson did get a 4.9 WAR one year. This compares better than Murphy. No doubt Jackson was an elite player who deserve HOF election. But, six seasons at 5 or better compares evenly to Murphy’s six seasons at 5 or better, doesn’t it?
I could go on, but again, I think the case is sufficiently made. Murphy belongs in the Baseball Hall of Fame!
November 17th, 201111:47 am
You say Murphy’s numbers were “not close to Mike Schmidt.” OK, Mike Schmidt is widely considered the best third baseman in the history of baseball. If we use that yardstick then we have only nine plaques in Cooperstown! But, despite that, let’s compare those WAR numbers, plus the traditional hardware that actually does rank a player next to his peers:
I’ve already listed Murphy’s WAR, here is Schmidt’s from 1973 to 1987:
OK, no one is going to argue that Schmidt’s numbers are not “best ever!” My point is that you don’t have to be the “best ever” to be in the HOF! Look at the three examples of outfielders who are already in, including one who no one argues against. Murphy was clearly better than two of them and in some respects equal to the other!
Morning Reads for Thursday, November 17th
November 17th, 201111:52 am
November 17th, 201112:00 pm
Put the man in the Hall of Fame!
Sorry, in my haste to post the WAR numbers, I omitted the hardware. So, let’s look at Schmidt:
All Star: 12
Gold Gloves: 10
Silver Sluggers: 6
Again, for Murphy:
All Star: 7
Gold Gloves: 5
Silver Sluggers: 4
Again, no one is going to argue that Mike Schmidt was not a better player than Dale Murphy, but for the third time man, Mike Schmidt was the best third baseman in the history of the game! If that’s your yardstick for Murphy, then go ahead an build your HOF with just nine plaques in it and see how many people care to travel to see it!
Most people consider Mike Schmidt the best player overall for his era. I think he was. Again, if your yardstick is that you have to be even the best hitter or position fielder to be elected to the HOF, then if we take it for a decade, baseball has a grand total of 14 fielders/hitters and 14 pitchers in it! Last I checked, there are substantially more plaques hanging in Cooperstown than 28!
Now, find me a better hitter/fielder in the National League during the 1980’s than the duo of Mike Schmidt and Dale Murphy? It wasn’t Andre Dawson! It wasn’t Gary Carter! It wasn’t Ozzie Smith! Go ahead, find me someone better overall in that category of player than Mike Schmidt and Dale Murphy in the National League. I don’t think you can. And if you cannot, then you are saying that only the best of an entire decade can get elected into the HOF and that means we have just 28 plaques hanging there, which is not the case!
November 17th, 201112:09 pm
and yet kirby puckett and jim rice made it….
November 17th, 201112:17 pm
I wish to post one more WAR-related comment. I agree that Chipper Jones is a first-ballot Hall of Fame player. My only reservation is a lack of confidence in the fairness and judgment of the voters! I mean, they left Roberto Alomar out on his first ballot and he’s widely considered the best or second best second baseman in baseball history (up there with Joe Morgan)!
But, let’s look at Chipper’s WAR run from his total career:
7 plus (3 years)
6 plus (2 more years)
5 plus (3 more years)
4 plus (2 more years)
In truth, Chipper has had a longer run of better consistency, with his lowest ever WAR being 2.2.
All Stars: 7 (Note: he was NOT elected or selected for the All Star game his MVP season!)
Silver Sluggers: 2
Gold Gloves: 0
Chipper not having a single Gold Glove seems a bit of a travesty to me, but his recognition among his peers is not even the level of Dale Murphy’s! Where Chipper excels is post-season appearances. But, again, Murphy did what he did with consistently weak talent surrounding him! Only for two seasons did Murphy have above average hitters surrounding him. Chipper’s offensive stats are consistently better than Murphy’s. Both have so far played 18 seasons.
I think this reinforces my argument that the basic problem Murphy faces is the inflated offensive statistics that immediately followed his heyday.
November 17th, 20111:28 pm
DALE MURPHY has played for the BRAVES and the Phillies like how SID BREAM has played for the BRAVES and the Pirates.Now SID BREAM first played for the Pirates,but I don’t even know which team DALE MURPHY first played for.
Mark's for the Braves
November 17th, 20111:33 pm
I have a baseball from a 1984 Braves game autographed by Dale. Still have it in a closet. Loved Murph!
November 17th, 20113:31 pm
Not gonna happen. Too busy screwing things up by moving the Astros to the frickin AL. Milwaukee should go. But wait–It’s Bud’s team. Coming soon, one league, multiple divisions, as I’ve been predicting for years.
Dion James n Ken Oberkfell
November 17th, 20117:08 pm
We made Murph better than he actually was.
November 17th, 20118:36 pm
I love Murph! He’s what got me to watching the Braves back in 1982. Been a fan ever since. I really hope he gets the vote to be inducted this year.
November 17th, 20119:26 pm
after this can we work on crime dawg? stud.
November 17th, 20119:29 pm
my thought are your are a hall of famer or you are not. if you are not elected your first time on ballot, how does your career get better with time? I wish someone could explain this. Dale was a great player, but at best a borderline HOFer.
November 17th, 20119:44 pm
Murphy is being compared to Puckett Sandberg Rice Dawson and so on. Thing is, not one of those guys NEEDS to be in the HOF. Sure, we can always make the case for any player who compares to some lower level HOFer. Keep doing that and pretty soon anyone better than Sid Bream will be considered HOFer material. Murphy wouldnt be a detriment to the HOF but the HOF is just as complete without him as with him. A very good player who was great for a while. A nice guy to the core. A lock for the Braves Hall of Fame. But no for Cooperstown
November 17th, 20119:51 pm
I made a WAR comparison to Reggie Jackson. You wish to call him a marginal HOF player?
And the reality is that my comparisons showed that Murphy was better that Rice, Dawson, and Puckett!
November 17th, 20119:52 pm
Joe DiMaggio got in on the third try. Now that may be harsh, but Chipper Jones aint Joe DiMaggio. Chipper will get in, but he is simply too one dimensional to be a realistic first ballot HOFer. Chipper was a great hitter (and is still a pretty good one) but he is average at best on defense and a zero as far as leadership and other peripherals. He is the Dominique Wilkins of baseball. Second or third ballot HOFer
November 17th, 20119:55 pm
Reggie IS a marginal HOFer. He had a lot of peripheral stuff to puff up the myth, but at the end of the day he was a one dimensional .260 hitter. Take away the hooha (good and bad) that swirled around Reggie and he is a very marginal hoffman candidate
November 17th, 20119:57 pm
we will have to agree to disagree. Murphy wouldnt be the kind of travesty to the HOF that Rizzuto was, but I stand by my view. Electing Murf to the HOF would be huge for Murph and nothing of consequence for the HOF
November 17th, 201110:01 pm
Murph might indeed be better than Rice Sandberg and Dawson. being better than three guys who shouldnt be in the HOF doesnt make one a HOFer
Bobby Cox's Cigar
November 17th, 201110:08 pm
Tough decision. Murphy is very much borderline, but I would lean towards putting him in.
Another Brave I would put in is Andruw Jones, who I would actually rate above Murphy overall. John Smoltz also very much deserves to get in.
And of course, Maddux, Glavine, and Chipper are locks.
November 17th, 201110:16 pm
“Joe DiMaggio got in on the third try. Now that may be harsh, but Chipper Jones aint Joe DiMaggio. Chipper will get in, but he is simply too one dimensional to be a realistic first ballot HOFer. Chipper was a great hitter (and is still a pretty good one) but he is average at best on defense and a zero as far as leadership and other peripherals. He is the Dominique Wilkins of baseball. Second or third ballot HOFer”
Please. You are seriously comparing the Hall of Fame voting of that time period to the time period of today? Completely difference and incompatible. Your one dimensional argument holds little water. Most people are in the Hall for their offense plain and simple. Chipper ranks as one of the top 3 hitters among 3rd basement. Defense won’t matter with him. As far as peripherals, were you there? Do you believe in magic? Seriously though, I have heard he is a team leader and a great hitting advice giver.
“Reggie IS a marginal HOFer. He had a lot of peripheral stuff to puff up the myth, but at the end of the day he was a one dimensional .260 hitter. Take away the hooha (good and bad) that swirled around Reggie and he is a very marginal hoffman candidate”
Not at all. Reggie placed first place in WAR 3 times and racked up 74.6 for his career. He also lead in OPS+ 4 times. Look past the batting average, there is more to the story. Did I mention his postseason career?
November 17th, 201110:50 pm
GREAT GUY….NOT HOF…ANYONE LOOKING AT THOSE STATS WOULD CALL IT A GOOD CAREER…THATS IT….BROUGHT UP AS A CATCHER, THAT COULDN’T CATCH…GET YOUR MEMORY HATS ON FOLKS…WHEW…THE HALL IS NOT A BEAUTY PAGENT..
November 18th, 20116:10 am
Love the Braves. Love Murphy. But he does not deserve to get in. There is no greater sign of his not deserving to enter than him needing a letter of support.
November 18th, 20118:32 am
“And the reality is that my comparisons showed that Murphy was better that Rice, Dawson, and Puckett!” — Ken Stallings
I’m with Robert’s opinion. Because those players got in doesn’t mean they should be in (based on your analysis) or that entitles Murphy to get in. Look, players are voted into the Hall, so there’s no objective measure deciding their admission. Part of Murphy’s trouble is that he declined relatively early and kept playing (reminds me a bit of Andruw Jones).
Murphy had a solid run a good portion of his career, but not enough to lift him into elite status, in my estimation.
November 18th, 201110:03 am
You’re all talking about what a great guy Murph is when you are saying he should be in, and I am a Braves fan and love him as much as anyone, but do his career numbers really qualify him for the Baseball Hall of Fame? A career .265 average and 398 homers are very good, but are they really hall of fame good?
In my mind, the Hall of Fame should be reserved only for players who had extraordinary careers and made a huge impact on the game and the public. Sure, Murphy is loved in Atlanta, but they rest of the country hardly even remembers him, so you can’t say he was an over-all national fan favorite. I know his wonderful personality sways a lot of people, but if the HOF let’s people like Ty Cobb in DESPITE their terrible personality, then they should also not have people based solely on being nice.
Hey, if he gets in, I’ll be very happy for him because I personally grew up watching him and love the guy but, ultimately, I’m not so sure that the stats bear out inclusion in a national hall of fame.
(by the way, I also think there are a lot of guys in the hall who really shouldn’t be in. I know, if they’re in with less-than-amazing stats, then why not Murphy too? I think that’s another argument altogether.)
November 18th, 20111:07 pm
Murphy’s statistics fall far short. He may well belong in a hall of fame for decent human beings but he is not a baseball hall of famer. We already have too many Dawsons, Stargells, Doerrs, Kells, Rizzutos, Fingerss, Hermans, Lindstroms, Hafeys, Newhousers, Carters, Perezs, Cepedas, and on and on and on who don’t belong. Let’s not water it down anymore.
November 18th, 20111:19 pm
Well, Robert, if you wish to assert that Reggie Jackson is a “marginal” Hall of Fame player, then indeed, we will have to agree to disagree. Because if hitting over 500 home runs back in the pre-steroids and pre-HGH era is “marginally” qualifying in your view, then essentially you wish to see 75% of the current plaques removed. If that were done, then the Baseball Hall of Fame wouldn’t be exclusive, it would be illusory!
November 18th, 20112:11 pm
Baseball numbers wiz and historian Bill James wrote a book several years ago called “The Politics of Glory”. In it Bill looked at the stats of everyone in the HOF and came up with a method to determine if a player was Hall of Fame worthy. According to Bill James, Dale Murphy should be in the Hall of Fame. Not only is this stated in Bill’s book, but he also stated this in an interview once on CNN when asked about Dale.
November 18th, 20112:26 pm
Well, Robert, if you wish to assert that Reggie Jackson is a “marginal” Hall of Fame player, then indeed, we will have to agree to disagree. — Ken Stallings
Me too, Ken. The notion that Reggie is “marginal” Hall of Famer is absurd. But about par for the course from that particular commenter.
Reggie was a 14-time All-Star selected on 93.6 percent of ballots in his first year of eligibility. An overwhelming first-ballot Hall of Famer. That’s yet another example of how far from reality our friend Robert truly is. Living in his own alternate universe when it comes to judging ballplayers, managers, etc.
And convinced till the day he dies that he’s right and the vast majority of folks are either just dead wrong or part of a big conspiracy.
Wow. Reggie a “marginal” selection. He really said that?
November 18th, 20112:55 pm
Yes, I really said that.
Reggie Jackson was a career .262 hitter who remains the career leader in strikeouts. He was at best unspectacular as a defender and as often as not was a distraction to his team.
He had his moments, and a good number of them occurred in the postseason and in New York. Those peripherals helped his cause, and I’m not saying that’s wrong – but the myth and aura surrounding Reggie have him remembered today as more than he was
Put it this way – if Reggie Jackson was one of the final few in the HOF, the HOF would be just fine
Back to Murphy – a very very good player who was great for a while, ans a very nice guy. The nice guy thing should help a little. The key being “a little”. In other words, if you have two guys who are equal in production and one is nice and one is an ahole, then you give the nice guy first nod.
But if being seen as a nice guy vs being seen as a “problem Negro” ends up meaning that Dale Murphy is in the HOF while Dick Allen is out, then the voters have lost their way.
November 18th, 20113:01 pm
“As far as peripherals, were you there? Do you believe in magic? ”
Name me the team led by Chipper Jones that ever won anything of consequence.
I’ve said it before and will say it again. Chipper Jones is the Dominique Wilkins of baseball. A guy who was truly world class at one offensive aspect of the game. A guy who could CARRY his team for periods of time. But a guy who never ever ELEVATED the whole team around him.
From a purely practical standpoint, ask yourself this. If you put a Chipper Jones in on the first ballot, then how do you properly acknowledge the class of ballplayer that ranks a step (or two, or three) ahead of Chipper? Putting Chipper in on the first ballot shortchanges Hank Aaron
November 18th, 20113:04 pm
Robert, nice straw-man argument with Dale Murphy.
Murph received a high of 23.2 percent of the HOF votes in his second year on the ballot. 75 percent are required for election. This will be his 14th year on the ballot (max is 15 years), and he’s received below 15 percent of votes for the past 10 years.
Yes, Dick Allen belongs in the Hall. I agree with you. He’s one of a handful of the glaring omissions of the past few decades.
But as often the case, you undermine your own argument — in my opinion, at least — by straining your credibility with statements such as Reggie Jackson was a marginal Hall of Famer (elected on nearly 94 percent of the ballots in his first year of eligiblity).
November 18th, 20113:28 pm
The Hall of Fame has made some mistakes. Now it’s ok to say that we wont back up and correct the mistakes, but today’s mindset is that we use the mistakes to make claims for candidacy for our favorite players who are in some subset of statistically arguable ways better than the mistakes.
Some of less well known bad choices by the Hall of Fame include
George Kelly – primarily a first baseman – career adjusted OPS of 109, two seasons above 120
Hal Newhouser – The poster child for the notion that numbers and statistics must be considered in context. Or proof that even a mediocre major league level pitcher will overmatch minor league hitters – which is what Newhouser was mostly facing in 2 of his 3 huge seasons
Eppa Rixey – Red Faber – Ted Lyons
Lloyd Waner – hit .300 for his career, had over 2400 hits, and his brother was a true HOF caliber player – Sure. And Joe Niekro won 220-some games
November 18th, 20113:45 pm
DOB – Was Reggie Jackson a complete player? Was Reggie Jackson a great pure hitter?
Let’s look at two guys who have nearly the same career adjusted OPS, both hit 500 home runs, and who also both liked to remind us frequently of their magnificence – Reggie Jackson and Gary Sheffield
One of them hit .290 for his career, and walked 14 times for every 11 times he struck out.
One of them hit .260, and struck out more than anyone ever
And let me clarify one thing. When I say Reggie is marginal I dont mean he shouldnt be in – I mean he is one of the guys who scarpes by and just makes it.
The thing about Reggie – The one thing he did great, even there, the legend exceeds the true performance. 40 HR twice, 100rbi 6 times
November 18th, 20113:49 pm
I have a philosophical question
In making a case for HOF candidacy, it is standard procedure to take your guy and compare some subset of his statistics with those of a guy who is in. An oft-used tactic along the same lines is to “make a group” – I.e. – Ruben Sierra is one of only 2 players to ever 200hits, 300HR, 100 stolen bases, AND to have sex with a blood relative
If this is standard operating procedure – then why is the “if not A then definately not B” line of reasoning a “straw man”
Answer – calling something a “straw man” is a tactic – It’s used when you dont like someone’s opinion or conclusion, but cant make a reasoned argument to debunk it.
November 18th, 20114:02 pm
Let’s look at the flip side of things – instead of arguing, “if Jim Rice), then Dale Murphy –
How about this – Norm Cash isnt in. Boog Powell isnt in (an MVP and a runner up, and a K/BB of 12 to 10, before you laugh him off). Those guys are as treasured in Detroit and Baltimore, respectively, as Murphy is in Atlanta.
Bottom line, the Hall of Fame was meant to be an EXCLUSIVE group. The supporters of the guys who are thus EXcluded are always going to be unhappy -
November 18th, 20115:06 pm
Since I live clear across the country from the ATL they were not my team of interest. Then the 80s brought cable TV, TBS and the Braves. Playing rightfield for them was a young guy from Portland, OR, just 23 miles from my house. Thus started my now close to 30 year love affair with the Braves. Murph is already in my hall of fame.
November 18th, 20115:14 pm
Three guys to compare with Dale Murphy
First Murphy – 18 seasons, 121 career adjusted OPS, 9040 plate appearances, , .265 BA, .346 OBP, 398 HR, 1266RBI – 2 MVP’s, 7 All-Star Games, 5 Gold Gloves, arguably the best player in the NL for the period 1982-1987 – was a threat on the basepaths for a part of his career (161 steals) – best single season adjusted OPS 157 – very nice guy
Next – Dave Parker – 19 seasons, 121 career adjusted OPS, 10184 plate appearances, .290 BA, .339 OBP, 339 HR, 1493 RBI, 7-time All-Star, 1 MVP, 2 Gold Gloves, 2 batting titles, one of the leagues most feared hitters from 1975-1980, was a threat on the basepaths for part of his career – best single season adjusted OPS 166 – not such a nice guy
Next – Harold Baines – 22 seasons, career adjusted OPS 120, 384 HR, 1628 RBI, .289 BA, .356 OBP, 6-time All-Star, best single season adjusted OPS 144 – Did not have the half decade of superstardom the previous two did (and yet had the best career OBP and similar adjusted OPS), spent considerable part of his career as a DH
Last – Norm Cash – 17 seasons, 7910 plate appearances, career adjusted OPS 139, 377 HR , 1103 RBI, .271 BA, .374 OBP, best single season adjusted OPS 201 –
Baines is clearly a no. I can argue for or against Cash, but cant see how you could exclude him and include either Parker or Murphy. And if you wanna argue for Murphy, you’re on weak ground if you wanna then not include Parker just because one was perceived as a nicer guy – Let’s not forget, Murphy’s polygamy is not moral behavior according to some
Bottom line – the Pirates fan who wants to tout for the Cobra or the Tigers fan who wants to campaign for Cash have as much or more to go on than the Braves fans who scream fro Murphy.
OUR hometown hero always seems to be best – to US. That doesnt mean that OUR guy should be the one out of this group to be enshrined in Cooperstown
November 18th, 20115:31 pm
“Murph is already in my hall of fame”
And there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. Just realize that Murphy was more special in the context of the baseball universe of a Braves fan than he was to the game as a whole.
There’s other guys who held the same status to fans of other franchises and also the same relative position in the world of the game as a whole. For better or for worse, some of these guys have ended up in the HOF.
That’s great for those guys and their fans. I dont see the world as a horrible unjust place if every one of those guys, or MY personal favorite of the group, doesnt get in to Cooperstown. The HOF would be just fine without any of them
November 18th, 20115:47 pm
Let’s try and look at this yet another way – and really I am kind of thinking aloud here
Let’s first agree that, at his best, Dale Murphy was CLEARLY a HOF caliber player -
So, then, how many times does a guy have to be there? And for how long? (in other words, is a five year consecutive run the same as five years scattered thruout the career). And how high should the highest peak be?
And where is the balance between quantity and quality?
For this – look at Murphy vs Mattingly
Mattingly had a run 1984-1989 that’s right there with Murphy 1982-1987. Murphy had more years of prior and subsequent mediocrity than Mattingly did. I dont know how much is enough, but clearly there’s a difference between say “X” number of years or appearances with a certain normalized stat such as adjusted OPS and “2X” appearances at the same normalized level
That said – 9000 plate appearances at an adjusted OPS of 121, vs 7700 plate appearances with an adjusted OPS of 127 ?
That’s two or three years – I could easily argue that if Mattingly had hung around for three more years of medicrity, he might have Murphy’s 9000 plate appearances – and his 121 adjusted OPS too.
Now – I know that some of the Yankees hardcore advocate for Mattingly to get to Cooperstown. But how many of the Braves fan base see Mattingly as a HOFer — (just to try and put into perspective what those more than 50 miles outside the 285 Perimeter might be thinking of our hero Dale Murphy)
November 18th, 20115:54 pm
How about Jim Rice vs Murphy?
Rice – 9058 plate appearances, career adjusted OPS 128, best single season adjusted OPS 157, career OBP .352, 8 -time All-Star, 1 MVP – actually had a similar number of great seasons as Murphy, but only three of them consecutively as opposed to Murphy’s
At the end of the day, I’d say that Rice was clearly a half a tick better player than Murphy over a same appearances career. And to me, Rice was a weak selection
Anyway, enough of this. I’ve looked at it from all kinds of angles, and unless I wanna try and look at it from the viewpoint of me being mama Murphy, I just can not come up with an arguement that compels for voting Murphy into Cooperstown
November 18th, 20116:05 pm
“Now, find me a better hitter/fielder in the National League during the 1980’s than the duo of Mike Schmidt and Dale Murphy? It wasn’t Andre Dawson! It wasn’t Gary Carter! It wasn’t Ozzie Smith”
This is a ludicrous standpoint. I mean, better duo based on what exactly? (other than linking the guy you advocate with Schmidt)
A hitter/fielder duo – as in one hitter and one fielder? Gimme Schmidt and Ozzie Smith. As in two guys whio could do both very well? Gimme Schmidt and Dawson over Schmidt and Murphy – (and I think Dawson was a borderline silly HOF choice)
I mean – Greg Maddux and any name out of the phone book make a pretty good pitching duo
November 18th, 20116:17 pm
I can not seriously respond to an argument without a basis or grounding. It is impossible to quantify this “carrying” or “elevation” of teams. I don’t solely give players credit or blame for individual games or seasons, rather I look at what they did.
I can easily justify putting Chipper Jones in on the first ballot. If one deserves to get in, then there is no reason should get in on any ballot but first. Its safe to say that Chipper going in on the first ballot won’t be shortchanging Hank Aaron. After all, look at how some other comparable and fellow top 5 third basemen got elected: (Note: the WAR is for general reference, and not adjusted for years played)
Mike Schimdt: 1st ballot, 96.5% (108.3 WAR)
George Brett: 1st ballot, 98.2% (85.0 WAR)
Wade Boggs: 1st ballot, 91.9% (89.0 WAR)
Now, old-timer Eddie Mathews (98.3 WAR) got elected on the 5th ballot. You mentioned Aaron. That was the customary thing at the time, but as you can see that time has since passed.
November 18th, 20116:21 pm
I even get tired of hearing myself talk!
November 18th, 20116:26 pm
Dale Murphy is NOT a polygamist! He and his wife have 8 children.
Also in a related subject, Mitt Romney and Jon Huntsman are not polygamists either, though I dislike both of them.
Reid in EAV
November 18th, 20117:10 pm
I’ve heard all the “against” arguments a million times. And I say you can shove ‘em up your orifice of choice. If ever there were a Hall of Famer, it’s ol’ #3.
November 18th, 20119:11 pm
Considering that the Braves have taken the step to officially lobby for Murphy, is there a chance that the AJC will waive their self-imposed restriction against voting for HOF at least for these last two years Murphy is on the BBWAA ballot?
November 18th, 20119:19 pm
By the way, how do baseball experts feel about Murphy? Well, I had forgotten until just now to mention this fact. But, on the MLB Network Prime 9 show on the best players of the 1980’s, in centerfield, they named Dale Murphy!
The second fact that caught my eye was that half of the players listed by that MLB Network Prime 9 program as best of the 1980’s by position have not yet been elected to the Hall of Fame!
I assure everyone that you cannot say this about the football, basketball, and hockey Halls of Fame. Players whom many consider “weak” inductees would in any other sport in America be considered no-brainer choices.
November 18th, 20119:23 pm
What about Fred McGriff??? He deserves it a heckuva lot more than Murphy. How about a letter for Crime Dog?
November 19th, 201112:26 am
You keep grasping at every angle to try to prove Murphy doesn’t belong. Now you’re hitting the McGriff angle.
Let me put that one to rest from my perspective.
Crime Dog deserves to be inducted also!
493 HR with 1550 RBI is a solid one-two punch for the Hall. He’s had two season with a WAR above six and another season above 5. His WAR is weaker than you might think with someone with those numbers, but again that reflects the offensive inflation I have written about previously.
The other weakness of McGriff’s claim is the lack of league hardware. He never finished higher than 4th in the MVP vote, plus he never won a Gold Glove. He was named an All Star six times, which is strong, and won a Silver Slugger three times, which is also strong. But, back to WAR shows that McGriff’s career WAR is a strong 50.5. By comparison, Murphy’s career WAR was 44.2. Reggie Jackson’s again was 74.6 (first ballot HOF), Chipper Jones 82.7 (hence likely first ballot HOF), and just to let everyone know what off the chart looks like: Babe Ruth 172.0 and Henry Aaron 141.6!
BTW: I’m not going to let pass one thing you wrote which was a cheap shot on Murphy. You spoke of “Murphy’s polygamy!” Those were your words, not mine! Dale Murphy has never cheated on his wife, Nancy. He’s been faithfully married to her for decades and have eight children together, and the two have lived the most solid and honest marriage one can imagine. Frankly, shame on you! One should not feel the need to stoop to personal degradations of one’s character to try to put forward an argument about HOF merit!
November 19th, 20111:24 pm
Without question, the Murph is my favorite athlete of all time. I have a Braves jersey he personally autographed that I wear for one game when they are in town to play the Astros. His stats aren’t particularly eye popping, especially toward the end of his career, but if a great player with questionable ethics (steroids, gambling, etc) can be kept out of the HOF, why can’t a good player who has served the game with nothing but class off the field get in?
November 19th, 20115:21 pm
What, Robert, did Murphy not sign your ball? Good grief.
November 19th, 20117:48 pm
players like tony perez and don drysdale are in with numbers that only gte you in if you turn broadcaster or play with other HOF guys. If Drysdale deserves to be in how about Milt Pappas. The best player to hit with murph was protected in the line up by Murph.. Remember Bob Horner.
November 19th, 20119:43 pm
Here is what Joe Posnanski, a great baseball writer, had to say about Murphy’s Hall of Fame case in 2012.
Here is my wild-card pick — one that most people I know disagree with. I get that. Murphy’s career numbers fall short. He burned out young — he was excellent for about eight years and not especially good on either side of those eight years.
But, as I mentioned in the Don Mattingly section, I put together a list of the best players in baseball since 1970. And from 1980 through ‘87 — that’s four five-year periods — Murphy was smack in the discussion as the best player in baseball. I’m not sure he ever was quite the best — Mike Schmidt was awfully good — but you could make a viable argument for him. He was, in his prime, a Gold Glove center fielder who got on base, hit with power, stole bases and willingly was the face of baseball as the (only) star attraction for Ted Turner’s Atlanta Braves. The Hall of Fame does ask its voters to consider a player’s character… a slippery slope. But Murphy surely must get bonus points.
I will concede that Murphy is an emotional pick — I was living in the South when Murphy towered as a larger-than-life character who signed every autograph, spoke up for every charity and played brilliant baseball every day for mostly doomed teams. But my new theory this year is that if a player is in the discussion as the best in baseball over a substantial period of time, he deserves serious consideration. Murphy gets my vote.”
November 19th, 20119:44 pm
*I meant 2010, not 2012
November 20th, 20119:25 am
DALE MURPHY IS WHAT A HALL-OF 0FAMER IS ALL ABOUT. A GREAT TEAM PLAYER, AN EVERYDAY PLAYER, A MOST ADMIRED MVP(TWICE), AND A TRUE GENTLEMAN. HE GAVE HIS ALL, MOSTLY WITH A BELOW AVERAGE TEAM, AND HIS NUMBERS REFLECT HIS GREATNESS. DURING HIS PLAYING YEARS IN ATLANTA MURPHY WAS WHAT KIDS THOUGHT OF AS MR.BASEBALL. TO THIS DAY HE STILL SUPPORTS HIS ATLANTA BRAVES AT ALL FUNCTIONS AND IS REPRESENTATIVE OF WHAT A TRUE HALL-OF-FAMER SHOULD BE. THE HALL-OF-FAME VOTERS WILL DO THE” HALL” A GREAT SERVICE BY VOTING IN DALE MURPHY.Y
November 20th, 201112:15 pm
Dale is just like Jim Kaat for the twins. Look at his stats. He was a great lefty.
November 20th, 20118:37 pm
November 22nd, 20119:24 am
Unfortunately class acts do not make it to the HOF. His numbers if he was a 2b, ss, or catcher would make it………………………………………………………..But, he was an outfielder and his numbers are average at best.
He was a good player, but just not good enough for the HALL of FAME.
Average of 70 RBI per season and a .265 average. These are the king of numbers that will never get him elected.
November 22nd, 201110:08 am
Bottom line, if Murphy played for the Red Sox and Rice had played for the Braves, Dale would be in. We all know that the Northeast Corridor sportswriters would have put him in and it’d be Rice on the outside looking in needing help from his owner.
November 23rd, 20111:32 pm
if Jim Rice got in – Murph should be a shoo in – even Andre Dawson getting in should open the door for Murph to get in.
Rice and Dawson were very “me” centered and only focused on stats – they didn’t do anything on the field that showed any type of care or concern – my goodness – we let Ryne Sandberg and Gary Carter get in – what gives – why can’t a good guy who gave Atlanta and all of professional baseball everything he had his just reward? The fact he won back to back MVP’s IN ATLANTA during the 80’s should have gotten him a first ballot nod – get the membership list and publish the voters names and let’s flood them with stats and letters.
November 23rd, 20111:53 pm
if Jim Rice got in – Murph should be a shoo in – even Andre Dawson getting in should open the door for Murph to get in. – jw
Sorry to say, that just doesn’t look realistic. Jim Rice was elected on the 15th ballot in what would’ve been his final year of HOF ballot eligibility. He was named on 76.4 percent of the ballots (75 percent is required), after being named on 64.8 percent and 63.5 percent of the ballots in the previous two years, and on more than 50 percent of the ballots in six consecutive years before that.
Dale Murphy has been on the ballot 13 years — this will be his 14th — and only once received even 20 percent of the votes, that in his second year in 2000 when he was named on 23.2 percent of the ballots. His high since then was 18.1 percent in 2001, and in each of the past nine years he’s gotten fewer than 14 percent of the votes. Last year it was 12.6 percent.
Sadly, that’s a very long way to 75 percent, and Murph only has this year and next to get voted in.
Andre Dawson made it on the ninth try with 77.9 percent of the votes in 2010, and in each of the seven years before that he got at least 50 percent, including 65.9 percent in 2008 and 67 percent in 2009. Like almost every other inductee, his voting totals trended up in the final years before he was voted in.
To repeat, Murph has never gotten as many as 24 percent of the votes, less than one-third of those required for election. And for 10 consecutive years he’s been under 15 percent.
Go Go you Pilots
November 23rd, 20114:55 pm
I wish But Babe Ruth ate alot of Hot dogs too and beer and stuff so what …..Dale Murphy No way Phil Niekro yes But i hope he wears a Ny Yankee Cap when gets in cause way Braves Brass treated him by lettin him Go elsewhere get his 300th win…..
November 23rd, 20114:57 pm
Don’t add Bob Horner as a HOF he more like Hall of fame at Pizza hut ..never see Horner in Hall
November 24th, 20119:37 am
Is there anyone else who has two MVPs and is not in the hall?
November 30th, 201111:42 am
Oh yes, definately Dale Murphy deserves to be in the HOF. At one point in the late 80’s and 90’s Dale was truly the face of the Braves and a dominant factor through the entire NL and baseball in general. His accomplishments throughout his years in the Brave organization was truly remarkable especially since the team was poor in preformances, he was there producing with the top preformers in the league. With those productive numbers and his character he definitely deserves the induction into the HOF.
December 1st, 201112:41 pm
Back 2 Back MVPs should have cemented his induction a long time ago. To the doubters, just check his numbers (including Gold Gloves) against some of the recent inductees like Gary Carter, etc.
December 1st, 201112:44 pm
I remember when Murph lived in Lawrenceville. Wish he still did! A quality of a human being if there ever was one.
December 1st, 20111:06 pm
I agree with a few of the comments posted before. Dale Murphy was an excellent player in and out the field, but he does not have, for an outfield, good enough numbers to get in to the Hall of Fame . I definitively will be very pleased if he gets elected. But the questions is…Can you put him there with the likes of Joe DiMaggio, Ted Williams, Babe Ruth, Willie Mays, and others?
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