1:47 pm November 4, 2011, by Carroll Rogers
November 4th, 20114:02 pm
scoots, I think Martin will bounce back to a respectable level say .280 13hr .385 but do you really want that at 3b?
November 4th, 20114:04 pm
I hope the clearing space for Matt Kemp also rumor going around that Braves are interested in Furcal to .
Kemp ain’t gonna happen, but the possibility of Furcal is fascinating to me. On the one hand, he seems like a PERFECT fit for what Atlanta needs….a short-term SS who can be had for a low price, with solid offensive skills, and who can keep the seat warm for Pastornicky. On the other hand, the fiasco 3 years ago HAS to be on Wren’s mind, as Scherholtz very publicly stated afterwards that the Braves “wouldn’t be negotiating with any Arn Tellem clients in the future”. Would the Braves agree to not only negotiate with Tellem again, but do so for the very player that caused problems before?? If they do, this story will certainly be one to follow closely.
I’m thinking 4-6 at least average major league players. Sure maybe all of them aren’t major leaguers or decent major leaguers right away.
I get ya, Shaun. Although I’m not sure if they equate to 4-6 average major league players.
November 4th, 20114:06 pm
It’s a simple question.
Maybe to someone of above-average intelligence like yourself it’s simple, but to those of us who are easily distracted by
P-Town Brave ©
I cant see Furcal even being in any conversation w/o another ‘F’ word involved.
Saw that. And no. Not if they want to win next year and in the future.
Heisey is a stud. Just admit it. He’ll start to hit LHP one of these years……
P-Town Brave ©,
I think Craig’s “World Series hero” status will inflate his value to the point he’s not worth trading for. Plus, if Pujols leaves then Craig suddenly has a starting spot, with Berkman going to 1b.
What’s your problem with Boras? The man simply does his job, and does it very well. It’s the owners that agree to pay these ridiculous salaries, if you are going to be angry with anyone, be angry with them.
Furcal has played over 97 games ONCE since 2007, and that was in 2009. No thanks.
November 4th, 20114:07 pm
Listening to the Atlanta Baseball Talk podcast, they are advocating for trading Minor and not JJ…
While these guys, especially the host are generally complete idiots that probably blog on here (Hi guys), its something maybe we could discuss.
I think you are probably right about Furcal. But he is SUCH a good fit on paper…just not a good fit based on what was printed in the paper
November 4th, 20114:08 pm
Yeah, Furcal is a little more injury prone than Beltran and he hasn’t exactly produced recently…
Not well enough for Carlos Beltran to stick around…. HI-YO!
Trading Minor is a horrible idea, unless KC will give us half of their farm.
Mountain Braves Fan
Jurrjens is an ace when healthy, but health is not his long suit. He will never have more trade value than now, because the team that trades for him will have him for two years.
Prado is by all accounts a great teammate and hard worker, but he is miscast playing either left field or third base–not enough OPS for either spot. And he will get too much money in arbitration to fill the super utility role. He should be traded to a team in need of a starting second baseman, a position blocked on the Braves by the acquisition of Uggla.
If trading both of these players saves the Braves enough money to go after a serious free agent, my choice would be Michael Cuddyer. He is four years younger than Beltran and has legit 30 home run power. He is also versatile. He is a good defensive player and can play either corner outfield spot as well as first base and second base. And in 2010, I believe he started 14 games at third base. He bats right handed and crushes left handed pitching. For all of the above reasons, he won’t come cheap, and a ton of clubs will be interested in acquiring his services.
November 4th, 20114:09 pm
Didn’t know that the Atlanta Baseball Talk podcast was back already. I agree, they are pretty dumb with 80% of what they say, yet I’m pretty sure the itch of no baseball is going to catch up to me pretty soon and I’ll be downloading them again….
Yet hardly anyone seems to want Beltran….
Kinda strange don’t you think?
DAP - Lefties Unite!!!
November 4th, 20114:10 pm
bobby cox fan club They Braves should try to go after Cody Ross
I just hope we get the good half.
Hammy is ok sometimes, but that Steve guy that runs the show….he is a complete moron! — I just wish there were a better Braves podcast out there
Heck, ‘Steve’ couldn’t even recall the name of the Phillies catcher….WOW….he’s missing some wattage on that old GE in his head
November 4th, 20114:11 pm
They Braves should try to go after Cody Ross
But we already have Matt Diaz to be our overpaid “gritty” platoon corner OF that doesn’t have any power or speed.
Beltran will be expensive and injured. No thanks.
1) I think anyone is worth discussing, so this is not really news.
2) Hanson won’t make it out of spring training healthy.
3) Unless Prado gets a ridiculous raise via arbitration, I think you keep him and use him in a utility role, especially if you are able to find an upgrade for LF.
WOW….I didn’t realize Minor was so established.
November 4th, 20114:12 pm
Efrim, close to a winning season in 2013. They have a great offense, and bullpen, they just need starting pitching. Duffy didn’t really take a step back, he is just a rookie, Montgomery di with an ERA over 5 in AAA, and Lamb got injured.
If they resign Chen, they have a chance at a winning season. Let me clarify, that’s over 500, still no playoff. They found a sleeper in Felipe Paulino the guy was very good for them has quality stuff with a mid 90’s fastball.
If they had a rotation like: JJ, Paulino, Chen, Hochevar, and Duffy with John Lamb continuing his development they’ll probably finish in 3rd place. Supposively they have a “stacked farm system”.
The challenge in reacting to a collapse this dispiriting is making the necessary roster tweaks without overreacting. Sources confirmed an MLB.com report that the Braves are willing to entertain offers for Jurrjens and Prado. Indeed, the Braves are ready to listen on just about anyone except Heyward, first baseman Freddie Freeman and their elite young pitchers. Crasnick
It’s made with bits of real panther, so you know it’s good.
Not sure if it’s the same podcast, but I think that’s the one where the guy talked about Jason “Heywood” for the first 3 weeks of spring training 2010.
November 4th, 20114:13 pm
Beltran will be expensive and injured. No thanks.
Chipper will be expensive and injured. No thanks.
Jurrjens will be expensive and injured. No thanks.
See, I can do that too
We are fools if we take anything less than an mvp for prado because thats what he is. I’d much rather trade hanson than Jair. You know he’s on the first plane to cali when his contract is up. He seems completely indifferent to the braves. Jair at least enjoys playing for us. That said, if he cant stay healthy in his 20’s, he probably wont have a long career. I’m open to trading him, but prado must stay. It would be like the escobar trade except we wouldnt be cutting a douche off. We’d be losing a guy that does everything right.
If Wren just has to make a trade, I would rather him trade Minor over anyone else
Also, anyone the really wants Francoeur back is an idiot.
I heard the change was that the signing team would not give up it’s number 1 pick for a type A FA, but the team that lost the player would still get a pick between the first and second round.
flange1, that makes a lot more sense. Then the cost of signing Willingham or Cuddyer lowers. Even though I still don’t want either of them. I hope they eliminate all Type B free agent compensation. Type A, sure, you get a supp. draft pick – and that’s it.
Yeah, because “established” players are the only ones worth keeping.
November 4th, 20114:14 pm
Not sure, but I know they did have the ‘Wayward’ Heyward meter this year….that was quite comical even if it was a bit depressing also.
No, but I didn’t realize that Minor wouldn’t be worth anyone in KC’s farm system….
November 4th, 20114:15 pm
Well, I got to go,and talk tonight.All this is interesting stuff,and peace my friends…….Be real…………….
Also, we already have Chipper and JJ. Why sign another?
Seems that Minor’s W/L record down the stretch is doing a lot to boost his perceived trade value… let’s not forget the guy had a 4.14 ERA and a WHIP close to 1.50 in 15 starts.
I’m not a huge Minor fan, and if the team can get a better return trading him than JJ, I can’t say that I’d be all that broken hearted seeing him go.
I totally understand the idea of trading Prado. JJ, his stock down. You are also depleting a strength on the team. You don’t weaken yourself in one area to get stronger in another.
Indeed, the Braves are ready to listen on just about anyone except Heyward, first baseman Freddie Freeman and their elite young pitchers.
Yup. Smoke = Fire. Someone is going to go, as it seems Wren would like to make a deal to upgrade the LF situation.
And exactly since when did the braves go from a mid-market team to a poor team
why is there all this talk of salary relief? They seemed to be just fine last season and now it seems they can’t even afford Arb eligble players, that’s a very bad sign if true. When you become real and better run organizations farm teams, you may as well give up.
Trading Lowe was the right thing to do, and you saved 5 mil, plus kawakami’s contract is gone and linebrink and sherill, that’s plenty salary relief
November 4th, 20114:16 pm
Hell, if I had it my way, you’d only get a draft pick as compensation IF the player you lost came up through your system….
So that would ax the pick for Willingham and a few others.
60% of the time, it works EVERY time.
RC, Cody Ross has good power, and can play serviceable defense in all the OF spots. something diaz cant do. If it were me, i probably wouldnt trade prado or jurrjens, but id sign cody ross, and a SS out of barmes, gonzalez, santiago, scutaro, and be done with it, outside of possibly a relief pitcher.
That’s the point. Minor IS worth plenty of KC’s minor leaguers.
November 4th, 20114:18 pm
I don’t agree with that, simply because it would hurt teams that are smart enough to trade for young prospects (like the Braves with Jurrjens). How about you can only receive compensation for players that are reaching free agency for the first time?
Hell no! Once bitten, twice shy!
Minor improved as the season went on, and he’s 21. No potential there?
As usual, the Braves have to make moves because of money. I’m so sick and tired of this team having to consider moving guys because they will start to make a few bucks. We’re talking about $10 million total for JJ and Prado, which is ridiculously cheap if they both perform they way we know they can. I’m all for making the team better every chance they get, but trading ML talent for minor leaguers is what teams do when they know they can’t compete. If saving this money was going to allow them to go after a big time bat that would be one thing, but it isn’t.
I read one pundits article about the top 10 free agent trades and he listed Jose Reyes going to the Braves. I can’t imagine the Mets coming in second when bidding for this guy but if some strong pitching was offered to them it could happen.
November 4th, 20114:19 pm
ncscoots, I don’t think there is any concern going forward with Prado being anything like a bad player. I think it’s misguided to say a trade is a sign that the Braves view Prado as a bad player.
I think it’s more about what Prado is worth relative to his contract going forward. The downside to Prado is that he doesn’t walk a ton and, while he’s a solid power hitter, he doesn’t have great power. So offensively he’s better off at second or third. Also, defensively he’s better off at those positions. The Braves just don’t really have a spot for a player with his skill set, especially if they are looking to upgrade the offense in the outfield.
You could say Uggla is going to provide enough offense at second to make up for Prado’s offensive deficiencies as a leftfielder. I’m not sure that’s the case at all. True, Uggla has power to spare for a secondbaseman but he also isn’t the most disciplined hitter, so there is a pretty good chance he’ll post an OBP that makes him around a slightly-above-average offensive secondbaseman. And he doesn’t add any defensive value at second.
The only position right now where the Braves have a pretty much guarantee of a plus offensive performance, relative to other players in the league at that position, is catcher. There is a very good chance they get plus production at third, but I wouldn’t say that’s a guarantee. So I don’t think they have enough elsewhere to assure themselves that they can make up for Prado’s offensive deficiencies as a leftfield bat.
Minor is 23. My bad.
So, can Martin’ NOT play SS?
exactly he can NOT play short for more than a day or two. not enough range and not enough arm. we already have three fence posts in the infield we do not need another one at the most challenging position
November 4th, 20114:21 pm
Why would you offer pitching to the Mets for a Free Agent?
November 4th, 20114:22 pm
You gotta love a hitter who doesn’t wear hitting gloves! Don’t cha?
So the prevailing attitude around here is that since JJ and Prado are “established”, we shouldn’t consider trading them. Meanwhile, it’s ok to trade Minor. Teheran is less “established” then Minor. Shoud we trade him?
I think they should do away with free agent compensation completely. However, I do understand the need for teams getting something for guys leaving – like Fielder bolting from Milwaukee. But that can be a supplemental round selection between rounds 1 and 2, just as it is now. No team should lose their first rounder, and no, the Yankees and Red Sox aren’t going to spend like drunken sailors because of that. Even I’m willing to agree that first round selections don’t drive that much.
Owl, I agree about Minor… he definitely was better down the stretch than he was during his first few outings for the Braves.
I’m sure he does have potential, but my overall dislike of him clouds my judgement enough that I can’t see it all that well.
I never really liked Glavine, and Minor gets compared to Glavine a lot, which is probably the source of my disdain. It isn’t even his fault, it’s Glavine’s.
November 4th, 20114:23 pm
Anyone on here watch the Discovery show Gold Rush? I got totally addicted to it last season… anyways, second episode of season 2 is on tonight.
He (JJ) will never have more trade value than now, because the team that trades for him will have him for two years
baloney. that might have been true if he had stayed healthy and had a good second half. It isn’t even close to true under the current circumstances
November 4th, 20114:24 pm
I’d rather not trade players that have more service time like Mike Minor. Honestly, he doesn’t have the greatest upside, but he still has something like 5 more years under team control. That’s quite a bit of value for a mid-rotation arm like him.
Well, at least you have your reasons. Can’t argue with that.
November 4th, 20114:25 pm
You could say Uggla is going to provide enough offense at second to make up for Prado’s offensive deficiencies as a leftfielder. I’m not sure that’s the case at all.
Unsurprising. You, and many here, have gotten so caught up in position offensive profiles that you have neglected to look at the projected lineup in its totality.
I would be extremely upset if the Braves traded Prado, not because he’s my favorite player, hardest worker, the heart of this team, etc… but because it’d be a slap in the face to the guy. The dude has changed positions repeatedly and done everything for the benefit of the ballclub, and yet they’d be unwilling to pay him $4.5 mil next season? They went out and traded for Dan Uggla, Martin’s position, and paid him more than any 2B in the history of the game before he even played a game for the Braves, after Prado had an MVP-caliber season in 2010 at 2B. So, Martin has a freak injury after learning yet another position, tries pulling the ball all year because of a sorry hitting coach and a organizational-wide persuasion to have Martin try & hit more HR’s. Frankly, I’d be P.O’ed even if we landed the Ted Friggin’ Williams 1941 reincarnation. They should have traded for an OF last year. To still be looking for power after Uggla slammed 36 bombs last year, says more about the failure of Uggla’s .233/.311.
This organization has been defunct in developing a power-hitting prospect for YEARS. I understand Wren’s concept to focus on pitching. He’s done extremely well in that regard. In fact we could have a 10-man rotation next season. Why not trade a pitching prospect to land a hitter? Trade from a position of strength, not one where when Chipper gets hurt next year, or if Uggla ever hits the DL, we’d be scrabbling for a replacement. Who are we planning on playing at 3B this year? Hinkse? Jack Wilson? lol.
There’s my rant
November 4th, 20114:26 pm
Before I go the three team listed for Reyes. Florida, Nationals,and Giants. Reyes coming to braves not heppening. Peace out!!!!!!
Jurrjens is probably worth Lorenzo Cain and another lower level prospect. Wren has to decide if that’s enough to make a deal. I hope he keeps him if that’s the case.
“Seems that Minor’s W/L record down the stretch is doing a lot to boost his perceived trade value… let’s not forget the guy had a 4.14 ERA and a WHIP close to 1.50 in 15 starts.”
First of all, I’m not saying Mike Minor’s career will go anywhere down the path of Tom Glavine.
But do you realize that in Glavine’s 3rd full season in the big Leagues (he made 9 starts in his rookie year), in 1990, Glavine had a 4.28 ERA and a 1.446 WHIP. He won the Cy Young in 1991.
Going into that 1990 season Glavine had made 72 big league starts. Minor has made 23 starts so far.
Wonder if the blog would have been around in 1990 how many guys would have “given up” on Glavine at age 24?
November 4th, 20114:28 pm
Carroll: I know what you mean about Gilmartin but I don’t think he has the ceiling of the top three (Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino). I even like JR Graham’s and JJ Hoover’s pure stuff better than Gilmartin’s (though Gilmartin is not only a lefty but more polished than those two) but it seems like we are grooming them for the pen.
Hey Nooolie -
Whats a fence post?
November 4th, 20114:29 pm
I’m guessing at least one, up around Minnesota, somewhere.
So Prado is the odd man out because the rest of the team sucks?
N8 would have
November 4th, 20114:30 pm
Most of the people here would have given up on Glavine at 24. People would be offering him up for Dennis Rasmussen.
N8, the game has changed a lot since Glavine’s ‘91 season. A lot.
November 4th, 20114:31 pm
I would have….simply because if any of the rest of you have had a conversation with Tommy….he’s boring as sh!t….
I mean I would literally rather hang out w/ Chip Caray, and most of my good blog friends know how much I despise that friggin guy.
November 4th, 20114:32 pm
anybody can be good when the get an extra 6 inches on the outside of the plate like Tom did
Isn’t the idea to keep minimum salaried players like Hanson, Beachy, Minor, etc.?
November 4th, 20114:33 pm
DOB tweet, not a surprising development:
Hearing from colleague at KC Star, Royals saw price of Myers and Cain too high for Jurrjens and possibly Prado.
November 4th, 20114:34 pm
The more I think about it, the more I’m thinking the Braves may be doing their best to set themselves up for a run at Carlos Beltran. The question is does his injury history suppress his value enough to put him in the Braves’ price range? It’s possible but I don’t know if it’s likely.
Just read this from Law: “Many teams can and will do worse at the DH spot, but others might be willing to accept the loss of five or so runs of value on defense and the added injury risk by playing him in left, especially since Beltran has a clause in his contract that prevents the Giants from offering him arbitration, which means the team that signs him won’t need to give up a draft pick as compensation.”
That last part is interesting for the Braves. Basically, if they can get him at a fairly reasonable price, they don’t take a hit long term in terms of draft compensation.
I’ve heard so many people say this too. Keith Law, for one.
But he hates the Braves and IBKL.
I see that return as too low for both JJ and Marteen
“Unsurprising. You, and many here, have gotten so caught up in position offensive profiles that you have neglected to look at the projected lineup in its totality.”
Why not? Everybody praises Mac for being the best hitting catcher in baseball. When in reality, he’s nowhere near one of the best hitters (at any position) in baseball.
If we’re expected to be elated with one guy because of his position, aren’t we allowed be “down” on another guy based on what others at that position are doing?
Case in point, here is Mac’s rankings in all of baseball last year at each major offensive category:
So, he’s the best hitting catcher. That’s clear. But in 2011, he probably didn’t crack the top 50 hitters in baseball.
If our BEST hitter, can’t crack the top 50….. that’s a problem. No matter what position he plays.
November 4th, 20114:35 pm
I meant to say “at all positions”. Not at “any position”. Clearly, Mac is the best hitting catcher.
how can KLaw hate the Braves and rank us third this year?
Looking at his numbers, I’d have problem given up on Glavine at 24. Fortunately, the Braves had the luxury of not being very good, so he was able to retain his rotation spot in 91, and his results that year were outstanding compared to the previous year. His K/9 bumped up by 1.6, while his BB/9 dropped by 0.8. Pretty remarkable turnaround.
November 4th, 20114:36 pm
He cracked the top 50 in HR, and chicks dig the long ball, so there ya go…
Now THATS a name drop!
BTW, did you know he led the NL in HR allowed in 1990.
Got any more great name drops…
Basically, if they can get him at a fairly reasonable price, they don’t take a hit long term in terms of draft compensation.
November 4th, 20114:37 pm
An extra 6 inches can mean everything….
Just ask some ladies and Ron Jeremy… HI-YO!
Not sure if this was posted already on one of the older blogs; From cnnsi.com;
Atlanta Braves 2011 Results: 89-73
Pythagorean Record: 86-76
Pending Free Agents: SS Alex Gonzalez, P Scott Linebrink, OF Nate McLouth, P George Sherrill, SS Jack Wilson
Prospects on the Verge: P Randall Delgado, P Julio Teheran, P Arodys Vizcaino, SS Tyler Pastornicky
Building For: An imminent divisional dynasty
Strengths: Starting pitching, and lots of it. Young LH hitters.
Biggest Holes: Left field, third base pending Chipper Jones’ future, shortstop. Offense in general.
Targets: Bats in trade, using pitching as bait.
The Plan: The Braves kicked off the offseason by trading Derek Lowe to the Indians for the right to not pay him his entire salary next year. Lowe, who looked like he might be done during his 9-17, 5.05 ERA season last year, was maybe the Braves’ ninth-best starting pitcher heading into the Hot Stove League, and he will not be missed. The Braves save $5 million in the deal, an amount unlikely to have an impact on their 2012 plans, if past moves of a similar nature are any indication.
What has killed the Braves in recent seasons is an offense not good enough to support a great pitching staff, and in particular, a failure to assemble major league outfields. The Braves have to commit, this winter, to adding a leftfielder who can bat in the top half of the order, to go with midseason pickup Michael Bourn and holdovers Brian McCann, Freddie Freeman and Jason Heyward as the core of a championship-caliber lineup.
They can do that by trade or by free agency, but it means the team’s owners, Liberty Media, has to be willing to spend money. The best corner outfielders available on the market are Jason Kubel, Carlos Beltran and Michael Cuddyer. Beltran, who the Braves were in on at the trade deadline, would be an excellent fit, but likely to require a three-year commitment at upwards of $10 million per season. If they would prefer, the Braves could put some of that pitching depth — the names above, plus Mike Minor or Brandon Beachy — on the trade wire.
That could make players like B.J. Upton, Nick Swisher, Logan Morrison or Andre Ethier available — three of whom are free agents after 2012. The goal, however pursued, is clear: Bolster the top of the lineup so that a third straight season of strong pitching isn’t wasted..
November 4th, 20114:38 pm
He cracked the top 50 in HR, and chicks dig the long ball, so there ya go
so that’s why McFann loves him so much?
Probably so. I mean, that’s a pretty good business model.
Still, any businessman will tell you that, at some point, it’s less about “bang for the buck” and more about just plain old “bang”. The most efficient manner of team is 25 slightly-better-than-league-average players making at or near the minimum. That team will deliver more wins per dollar than any other configuration. Won’t get you to the playoffs, but fans can rejoice with a “Hey, we’re the most efficient team in MLB!”
That’ll warm you through the offseason, I betcha.
November 4th, 20114:39 pm
Inside joke, nolie. We’ve been saying that EVERYTHING is Keith Law’s fault. Like this chat question the other day:
What do you think of the Braves trade of Lowe?
I hate the Braves.
Brave New World
JoeBrave November 4th, 2011 4:02 pm
scoots, I think Martin will bounce back to a respectable level say .280 13hr .385 but do you really want that at 3b?
Are we talking about Prado or Chipper?
Hearing from colleague at KC Star, Royals saw price of Myers and Cain too high for Jurrjens and possibly Prado. – DOB
I’m wondering how to read this….is it that KC saw that price too high for Jurrjens AND Prado, or that KC saw that price as too high for only Jurrjens, and possibly too high for only Prado? Because if it’s the later, then that means that FW is negotiating pretty tough with them, and might be able to get those guys at a bit of a discount.
November 4th, 20114:40 pm
Bobby’s Cox @4:25 PM.
Amen to that, brother.
Hah! Sure will.
November 4th, 20114:41 pm
“N8, the game has changed a lot since Glavine’s ‘91 season. A lot.”
Still 9 guys playing against 9 guys. Still one guy on the mound and one guy in the batters box. Are you telling me it changed drastically from 1989 to 1990 (Glavine regressed from 89 to 90), and then it changed again from 1990 to 1991 when he went from being pretty mediocre to winning the Cy Young?
Sorry dude. Not buying it.
Yeah, the game has changed. Lighting is better (advantage hitter), hitting backgrounds are better (advantage hitter), the league has expanded twice since then (advantage hitter), ballparks are smaller (advantage hitter), fould territory in new parks has all but disappeared (advantage hitter). Guys are out of position to get their bat in the lineup (no help to pitchers with guys that play poor defense behind them). Strike zone has all but shrunk to nothing with most umpires (advantage hitter).
Any of the changes in today’s game compared to back then has given the advantage to the hitter. From my angle, that tells me that Glavine at age 24, probably has a harder time now than he would have then.
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