6:49 pm October 24, 2011, by David O'Brien
October 31st, 20111:56 pm
I think we could do better than Agon at the SS position… if we do go the Agon way, we’d best not give more than 2 mil in a 1 year contract.
October 31st, 20112:00 pm
Delgado, Teheran, Minor and Vizcaino are much less experienced than Smoltz, Averay and Merker.
Might want to remind folks, also that Smoltz, Avery, and Glavine, with the same level of experience as these youngsters under discussion, got their heads handed to them on a regular basis.
Except that the face they averaged that many innings could have been what led to their injuries.
That’s surely possible. But both guys had thrown 200-IP seasons in the past, so it’s not as if the load were something new. Dunno.
October 31st, 20112:01 pm
I gotcha T-Paul. But even you have to admit that baseball is different than it was back then. Guys grinded it out in the minors, racking up innings, or got called up to bad teams to pitch those innings with the big club. Nowadays, if the kids can pitch, they’re up. Some of them help teams win. Some don’t.
I should specify, (though I think I did just that), that it doesn’t necessarily have to be Hanson or Jurrjens that are dealt. It could be Beachy, Minor or Medlen that are moved to make room for one of them.
If Wren feels that moving Beachy or Minor is the winning lotto ticket to getting another bat that can help now? I don’t think he’d hesitate to put Medlen in the rotation. I also don’t think that the team would suffer if he did so. Let’s not forget that Medlen was one of our better starters before going down. That he got called up before Hanson and that he seemed to look to be back to himself upon his small sample size of work to end the season.
We could do a LOT worse than having Medlen in our rotation in 2012. Say perhaps…. like having D-Lowe in it? LOL
October 31st, 20112:02 pm
I think LaRussa may have some serious health issues.
Just a hunch, but he didn’t look too good the other day.
Hope I’m wrong.
October 31st, 20112:03 pm
Good riddance to Lowe….a bad signing from day one.
October 31st, 20112:04 pm
No reason? I’ve got two of them. Hanson’s shoulder and Jurrjens’ knee.
You mean, the knee and shoulder which show no structural damage, those two?
October 31st, 20112:05 pm
Hopefully, change of scenery will benefit Lowe. Trust me, he was a good dude who worked hard and took time to help young pitchers.
There was a reason teammates backed him, publicly and privately, till the end, despite his declining performance.
McFann O O o Get Well Soon, Nolie!!
October 31st, 20112:08 pm
10Paul Well, to be fair, that injury turning point is a solid reason to be skeptical.
Great job by Wren, and I agree with those saying that Wren has to be careful with the amount of youngsters that are in the rotation. But, my tee-shirt might come through:
Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Minor in 2012. Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino in Gwinnett. Lowe on another team.
There are a lot of teams out there who would kill to have Teheran and/or Delgado in their starting rotation for 2012.
There’s a big difference between running a guy out there who is a lower-level prospect and running a guy out there who projects to be a 1-3 starter in the league and who all writers/scouts mention has incredible poise for their young age.
Experience is very valuable, don’t get me wrong, but like I said a week or so ago, I’ll take an inexperienced live arm over an experienced dead arm any day of the week.
October 31st, 20112:09 pm
Oh, I wish Lowe all the best. I mean the dude sweated his butt off for the Braves.
Wouldn’t mind seeing the Braves beat him in the World Series next year.
6 man rotation, here we come
October 31st, 20112:11 pm
Another thing I found interesting on Baseball America’s top 10 Braves prospects is their “Projected” 2015 lineup. Mainly to see who is missing from it:
Catcher Brian McCann
First Base Freddie Freeman
Second Base Dan Uggla
Third Base Edward Salcedo
Shortstop Andrelton Simmons
Left Field Joey Terdoslavich
Center Field Michael Bourn
Right Field Jason Heyward
No. 1 Starter Julio Teheran
No. 2 Starter Tommy Hanson
No. 3 Starter Mike Minor
No. 4 Starter Jair Jurrjens
No. 5 Starter Randall Delgado
Closer Craig Kimbrel
Looks like they don’t see Prado hanging around that much longer…but are suprisingly optomistic on Jurrjens.
October 31st, 20112:12 pm
Also no Beachy on that “projected” rotation.
“You mean, the knee and shoulder which show no structural damage, those two?”
Yup. The same knee which showed no structural damage going into this season after surgery, that flared up again. And the same shoulder injury which has been in the making likely since Hanson started throwing a baseball. My guess is Josh Johsnon would say the same thing.
Listen scoots. I’m not trying to argue with you about those two guys. Unlike Chipper, I actually like those guys. (THAT IS SARCASM before I get blasted – since I get accused of hating Chipper on a daily basis).
Hanson is actually my favorite guy in the rotation. NOBODY wants him to succeed more than I do. I’ve liked him since the moment they called him up. If he’s ever healthy in October, he’s got a chance to be the new “John Smoltz” for this team and go on to post-season glory. Jurrjens isn’t anything “sexy’ but when healthy, he simply wins games. How can you not like that? Both seem like good dudes, which really doesn’t matter, but it makes you root for them. Unlike say a jackass like John Rocker.
As DOB just said in his 2:05, D-Lowe isn’t a bad dude. I too wish him well in Cleveland. Hope the fresh start is a good thing for him. But we didn’t need him anymore and he was clearly “blocking” somebody from getting a chance to shine, so it had to be done.
But believe me scoots, if for nothing more than trade value rising moving forward, I hope I’m DEAD WRONG about both Jurrjens and Hanson.
To say I’m worried about their health next year is an understatement, and like it or not, I’m probably with the majority on this opinion. Which is kind of strange for me.
October 31st, 20112:13 pm
Lowe may have been a bad signing, much like the Texeira trade was a bad one now that time has proven such, but remember the Braves would never have made the playoffs last year without one great month from Lowe. Lowe was the best we could do when we really needed pitching a few years back. Not that one month was a good ROI but ….it is what it is. We’ve had worse pitchers. At least Lowe never got lost on the perimeter. OK….the Buckhead thing I’ll give you.
October 31st, 20112:14 pm
But even you have to admit that baseball is different than it was back then.
Not so much different that any one with credit could claim such a young and inexperienced rotation is a serious contender.
I was not saying those guys can’t be in the rotation next season. Only say that if this team wishes to contend, they’ll need more veteran leadership and experience in the starting staff than those guys offer.
I like that they see that first guy sticking around!…
October 31st, 20112:15 pm
RC, if they think Braves can afford to keep all three Boras clients Jurrjens, Hanson and Boras through 2015, Baseball America must think the payroll’s going up a great deal.
Can’t see it happening. Not all three. And I don’t think both pitchers will be here in 2015. Maybe one, but not both.
October 31st, 20112:16 pm
NOBODY wants him to succeed more than I do.
That’s just simply not true. His mama wants his success infinitely more than you. So quit typing up your lies on there N8.
October 31st, 20112:17 pm
Keith Law’s quick take on the Braves trade with the Indians:
Chris Jones sucks and so do the Braves.
October 31st, 20112:18 pm
I agree with you on the Boras clients issue. Just pointing out what BA posted on their website.
October 31st, 20112:19 pm
Texted a #Braves player to tell him Lowe had been traded to Indians. His reply, “For? A couple visits to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame?”
I Blame Keith Law.
Also, for Jurrjens’ knee and Hanson’s shoulder. Maybe a few other things that currently slip my mind.
That 2:17 was for TenneseePaul.
This is his real take:
For Atlanta, this is pure salary relief. Jones is not a prospect — a middle reliever at best — and the $15 million owed to Lowe was a sunk cost. So they get $5 million of it back while also making room for one of their young starters. Mike Minor should be guaranteed a rotation spot now, and I assume Julio Teheran is most likely to land the fifth spot with Arodys Vizcaino starting in the pen to help manage his innings total. They’re no worse off in the rotation and get some money back to add to their offense.
La Russa…health issues? He may have looked like he was auditioning for Weekend At Bernies 2 but just surviving that helluva WS would cause anyone to look sick, pale, and well…just downright glazed over looking. Hell, I had to check my pulse and made sure I stayed on my meds. Heart stopping games are bad for your health!
October 31st, 20112:20 pm
More concerning than what little the Braves will be able to do with 5 mil in salary relief is the fact that they are in a financial position that forces them to eat 10 million just to save 5.
“I was not saying those guys can’t be in the rotation next season. Only say that if this team wishes to contend, they’ll need more veteran leadership and experience in the starting staff than those guys offer.”
I hear you. But seriously, the 91 rotation had Leibrandt for veteran leadership. Those guys (Smoltz, Glavine and Avery), knew NOTHING about being with a winning organization. Their experience they gained while up before 91 was playing for epic loser teams.
This batch of guys has Huddy to lean on. Sure a little less experience, but Minor was a college guy, so it’s not like he’s 19 years old and out of his element. Beachy handled himself just fine last year. He’s also “older” than some 19 year old rookie coming up from AA ball. So those two guys are damn near as experienced in terms of what it takes to make a playoff run from the past two seasons of being on winning team, than Smoltz and Glavine were in 91.
Avery was a baby. Just like Teheran or Delgado would be.
Like I said. I see where you’re going with it and for the most part agree with you in theory. I think we just disagree on what level of “experience” we’re talking about with the young guys. Then if you ad Medlen in there?
Add to that, the 91 team didn’t have nearly the bullpen talent that this team does. So take that for what it’s worth.
Ha! Classic Efrim.
October 31st, 20112:21 pm
Keith Law’s quick take is also that the Braves apparently have 6 rotation slots:
Mike Minor should be guaranteed a rotation spot now, and I assume Julio Teheran is most likely to land the fifth spot with Arodys Vizcaino starting in the pen to help manage his innings total.
Pretty sure they are already up to 4 before Minor or Teheran even enter the picture.
October 31st, 20112:22 pm
According to their blogs, Cleveland fans like the move.
Law still not sold on Beachy, is he, LOL?
“That’s just simply not true. His mama wants his success infinitely more than you. So quit typing up your lies on there N8.”
How do you know that? Maybe his mom is a bitch?
Good to know that David Ross is checking his text messages
Clemson’s loss to GT?
October 31st, 20112:24 pm
“Good to know that David Ross is checking his text messages.”
I was thinking Peter Moylan. But you might be right.
October 31st, 20112:25 pm
CB, even I can’t hang that loss on Law. Tigers were flat out-played.
N8 – That would make him a son-of-a-bi!tch.
October 31st, 20112:27 pm
I will miss Lowe. All you Lowe hatters got your wish. He will leave a big void in the starting 5 I grant you that.
Ouch! I guess all that team love and support is gone once the guy is no longer in a Braves uni.
with Arodys Vizcaino starting in the pen to help manage his innings total.
This would be the worst possible move with Vizcaino. He needs to gets his IP up, not managed. The only way to do that is have him start at Gwinnett.
scoots,had to get you back for saying you hope they play GT again. Ha!
October 31st, 20112:28 pm
I will miss Lowe. All you Lowe hatters got your wish. He will leave a big void in the starting 5 I grant you that.
Certainly will. I’m betting that we won’t even be able to replace all those earned runs against in next year’s rotation.
Or maybe Law doesn’t have confidence in Hanson….
…..or wrote the piece too fast. I mean, the trade occurred an hour ago or something. Oh well.
October 31st, 20112:29 pm
Fish, what exactly are you going to miss about Lowe? His distended ERA? His inability to get outs in September of 2011? His sinkerball that pretty much helped sink the team?
I was thinking Lowe would leave a big puddle on the mound.
October 31st, 20112:30 pm
Scoots, I wouldn’t worry too much about that. Considering he completely forgot about Beachy being in the rotation, I’m not sure that Klaw is completely tuned in to the inner workings of the Atlanta front office. I wouldn’t be suprised to see Vizcaino treated similarly to this year, where he moves to relief at the END of the year to manage is innings, likely from the Atlanta bullpen.
October 31st, 20112:31 pm
Hudson, Hanson, Beachy, Jurrjens, Minor. That’s your starting rotation. If there is a trade I still see JJ leaving and Teheran entering the picture as a #5 guy. I just don’t see JJ here long term especially with a new contract on the horizon. Maybe we get further along in ST before the pitching gets set but for me JJ looks expendable. Not to mention his agent.
Maybe we can pay A-Gon in standing ovations.
scoots, totally agree. Vizcaino needs to build up arm strength. The only way to do this is to let it fly in Gwinnett. Managing the innings means after around 120 IP at Triple-A, he moves to the bullpen in Atlanta.
October 31st, 20112:32 pm
CB, I’d love to have another crack at those guys, it’s true. Especially if the Tigers run the table for the rest of the year. Tech played an almost perfect defensive game, and I got my doubts that they could do so twice.
As for offense, Tech rambled and the Tigers ended up the wreck, LOL. Tigers need a little work, there, if they meet up again.
Is Vizcaino’s future as a reliever?
I will miss his big game presence during big pressure situations. I’ve seen Hansen wilt, Jurrjens fall off, etc only Huddy was just as durable. Lowe was a workhorse and I hope his work ethic rubbed off on the pitchers that can’t stay away from the trainers room.
October 31st, 20112:37 pm
scoots, I predict you will. I am afraid my boys are vastly overrated, I think good chance we lose 3 out of the next 4. A lot of injuries on the defense and inconsistent QB.
Considering he completely forgot about Beachy being in the rotation, I’m not sure that Klaw is completely tuned in to the inner workings of the Atlanta front office.
You did not just say that about K Law!!
He knows everything.
October 31st, 20112:39 pm
Lowe was a workhorse
Now, that’s funny.
Lowe will own us in the 2012 World Series
jeffrey d, I hope not – his value will be higher if he can stick as a starter.
October 31st, 20112:40 pm
I am afraid my boys are vastly overrated,
I think VaTech was ranked higher than the Tigers in one poll I saw today, though. A loss in October is worse than one in September.
But seriously, the 91 rotation had Leibrandt for veteran leadership. Those guys (Smoltz, Glavine and Avery), knew NOTHING about being with a winning organization.
But seriously, I’m not getting the impression you are hearing me.
Those guys (Smoltz, Glavine and Avery) had 200 starts and over 1245 IP pitched between them prior to 1991.
The young guys (Minor, Teheran, Delgado, Vizcaino and Beachy) have for 61 starts and 350 IP between them going into 2012.
Sure a little less experience
No. It’s demonstrably less experience as a whole dispersed amongst even more players.
October 31st, 20112:45 pm
Frankly I’m not worried about our pitching at all. From what I saw in the WS we only had two players that could start for either team: Freeman and Bourn. Sad but true. The Braves need better hitters, clutch hitters. I think Wren has a lot of work to do this off season. He needs a major OF acquisition and a SS. Chipper is to the Braves as Matt Young is to the Rangers. They need power around them. McCann needs to become a better defensive catcher. Overall the Braves have tons of pitching but need at least a half ton of hitting.
October 31st, 20112:48 pm
If we need an extra veteran pitcher, I know of one such veteran who can be had for a low 1 yr deal.
His name is Kenshin….
October 31st, 20112:49 pm
2012 WS….Cleveland/ Braves….Indians on 7th and Lowe MVP…here’s your 10 mil invested.
October 31st, 20112:52 pm
I highly doubt that Derek Lowe will be what puts the Indians over the top
October 31st, 20112:54 pm
I will miss his big game presence during big pressure situations. I’ve seen Hansen wilt, Jurrjens fall off, etc only Huddy was just as durable. Lowe was a workhorse
See September 2011 for reference as to Lowe’s “big game presence”.
I worked at a really big corporation for a few years as a manager… one day my manager came in and told me “I need you to fire Karl.” I said “I can’t fire Karl, he’s the hardest worker I’ve got!”… that’s when my manager showed me Karl’s pass/fail bug report.
Yes, Karl worked more hours than anyone else I had… he worked day and night. But while working day and night he broke more stuff and caused more work for others than they would have had with Karl simply gone from the company.
Hard work ain’t enough.
“Those guys (Smoltz, Glavine and Avery) had 200 starts and over 1245 IP pitched between them prior to 1991.”
Yup. But not a one of them had pitched in a one meaningful game that had playoff implications. Hell, not one meaningful inning for that matter.
I do hear you, and I agree with you. It’s concerning. But i stand by my theory that the “experience” of pitching in meaningful games the past two years can to an extent be deemed equally as important to their development as Glavine, Smoltz and Avery actually racking up innings.
Can they get guys out? Can they handle the pressure? I think they can.
The only real question is what their stamina will be down the stretch.
Who would you have felt better with in a one game playoff game had we been in one? Lowe (and all of his innings), or Beachy, Minor or Delgado?
October 31st, 20112:55 pm
How about any doubt that the Cardinal will win the 2011 WS in Sept 1?…
It’s baseball Jeffrey….anything happen..just a thought…
October 31st, 20112:56 pm
Eat more chikin.
Chipper is to the Braves as Matt Young is to the Rangers.
Uh, come again?
October 31st, 20112:57 pm
Lowe will teach them what hard work and sweat can accomplish, a much higher laundry bill.
October 31st, 20112:58 pm
We still think of Hanson and Jurrjens as young guys, but they have close to 1200 IP between them already. Not veterans, I guess, but certainly not untested. I think a rotation of Hudson, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy and Minor has plenty of experience to be successful. And while having Lowe around for leadership and guidance certainly helped and will be missed, at least the guys had him around for a while and still have Huddy (2500 IP). I’ll take talent over experience in this case.
T-Paul, you’re putting more stock than I in overall experience and total innings pitched.
I’m putting more stock in being run through the ringer of a pennant race speeding up the learning curve for the young guys. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Nothing personal. But you knew that.
If Hanson and Jurrjens are healthy, absolutely you leave them in the rotation and ride their experience as far as it will take you. If they are not healthy, you go with the young guys. There are plenty of teams out there that would love to go to war with what pitchers we have toiling in the bullpen or at AAA.
October 31st, 20112:59 pm
Matt Young is the future cornerstone to the Rangers offense… in a move that’s going to be made sometime in the next 3-4 months.
I hope they enjoyed the WS while it lasted, because if Matt Young is to the Rangers what Chipper is to the Braves, they aren’t going back anytime soon.
October 31st, 20113:00 pm
Man, Baseball America starts their Top 10 series – the Braves are first up, and Frank goes ahead and trades Derek Lowe.
October 31st, 20113:01 pm
On a side note, anybody out there hoping that Theo doesn’t want Maddux around in Chicago under his current role, so he can “come home” and work along side Glavine upstairs? I’d love to hear Maddux occasionaly in the booth covering Braves games. Radio or TV.
If the Cubs choose to not keep him around it would be silly.
October 31st, 20113:04 pm
Man, Baseball America starts their Top 10 series – the Braves are first up, and Frank goes ahead and trades Derek Lowe.
Coincidence? Or merely the opening salvo of what is destined to be the basis of the next baseball-book-turned-movie?
C’mon people, stop with the nostalgic trip down memory road with Lowe. The guy was horrible. His 0-5 September with an 8.6 something ERA played a large part in their epic collapse.
Be glad he’s gone.
October 31st, 20113:07 pm
Still shaking my head… I know Efrim and I have been saying it for a while but to see others printing it makes it even more sad as I was hoping I was wrong and not seeing clearly.
“Atlanta has shifted its draft philosophy”
“The Braves used to focus on younger players…Now they concentrate primarily on college players who might have lower ceilings but cost less”
“The Braves … aren’t in the market for the big-bucks [international] prospects like they were when they signed Teheran for $850,000 in 2007.”
All around cuts. Just a bad move to go. It’s not what made this team successful during the ’90’s. It’s the exact opposite. I wonder if this is a reason for Kemp resigning.
I was unaware that they had spent second to last in the last two drafts. It’s a friggin shame and p!sses me off more than anything. It will come back to haunt them. And as much as I want to sit here and lie to myself about their possible 2012 draft, I don’t believe much will change.
I agree, to read that this morning solidified what I had already perceived about the Braves drafting philosophy. A real shame.
Murph, is it enough if one is merely not unhappy about it, or must one shiver with ecstasy at the mere thought of it? I’m looking for that bright line which determines “true fandom”, LOL.
P-Town Brave ©
October 31st, 20113:09 pm
So I see the name butchering is in full swing today
Did everyone make sure to take their meds….and by that I don’t mean your “medicinal” marijuana breakfast
October 31st, 20113:10 pm
to read that this morning solidified what I had already perceived about the Braves drafting philosophy.
You can hold out hope that two years is not yet a “philosophy”; it could be an attempt to bridge short-term gaps. Three years in a row, though, might make me a little antsy, too.
October 31st, 20113:14 pm
chipper is a AAA outfielder in a different organization to us? i thought he was a bit more important than that…
October 31st, 20113:15 pm
Man, Lowe was awesome. I’m going to miss him. His interviews were always witty werent they!
Is Willie Bloomquist solid defensively? At SS
October 31st, 20113:16 pm
Oh and I’ll post my feelings on this now… Speaking of draft, since it doesn’t look like much will change this next CBA, both Josh Willingham and Michael Cuddyer are Type A free agents. Go ahead, list them as targets for the Braves, but nothing would be more stupid to ONCE AGAIN give up our first round selection(#21 overall) for another older Type A free agent.
If you’re willing to give up a first rounder for a free agent – make it worth it. Not for Michael Cuddyer or Josh Wilingham. There. That’s my stance on two players that are sure to be the talk of the town for the next six weeks.
October 31st, 20113:17 pm
His interviews were always witty werent they!
It’s not easy coming up with different ways to say “I was pretty bad tonight”, every five days. I give the man credit: he never repeated himself.
October 31st, 20113:18 pm
If you’re willing to give up a first rounder for a free agent – make it worth it. Not for Michael Cuddyer or Josh Wilingham. There.
Make room in your foxhole, Efrim. I got your back on this one.
October 31st, 20113:19 pm
Great point Efrim. But if the Braves are going to continue to “waste” their first round picks (like many have said they have been), on low ceiling/high floor college guys….. what’s the difference? LOL
October 31st, 20113:21 pm
I’m putting more stock in being run through the ringer of a pennant race speeding up the learning curve for the young guys
Yes. Forgive me. I guess I do put more stock in 200 starts,1245IP and 7 combined seasons in the majors than I do in a handful of starts in one month at the end of a single season.
Perhaps it is foolishness, but I tend to think the longevity of a season exposes weaknesses more than a spot start at the end of a season does. And because I believe that, I tend to think younger players are tested on their ability to make adjustments. As such I’d rather have the majority of my rotation having experienced that testing and adjustment going into the season as opposed to banking on kids who have never experienced such, but did make spot starts when the rosters expanded.
An interesting day in Braves land. Thanks to FW for boldly making some moves and giving us some fodder for discussion.
I still find the Hinske option interesting.
I was hoping for a 4th OF that could challenge Prado and Heyward, but we have Hinske and Diaz.
If ALL FOUR rebound and have good years, the Braves will be in good shape, but if 2 don’t we are in trouble again.
October 31st, 20113:22 pm
“The guy was horrible. His 0-5 September with an 8.6 something ERA played a large part in their epic collapse.”
I’m not a huge Lowe fan, but there is no way he is that bad. Always thought he’d have that one miracle turn around start…never happened.
October 31st, 20113:24 pm
it could be an attempt to bridge short-term gaps
Even still it’s a bad idea.
It is official, AGONE a type B fre agent…
PLEASE offer him arbitration FW!
Whats so wrong w/ Cuddyer?
The guy hits for average and (some) power every year….and can play LF, RF, 1b, 3b, and 2b (which wouldn’t be nec)….AND he’s a RH bat that can play the OF or spell Freddie at 1b…
So why wouldn’t he be a good get for the ballclub?
October 31st, 20113:25 pm
I’m not a huge Lowe fan, but there is no way he is that bad.
If it were one start, maybe two, I’d agree with you… but Lowe was pretty darn consistent in his awfulness.
Not gonna miss Lowe one single iota. So glad he is gone. Indians are going to wish they had that 10 million dollars to use elsewhere. Who else sees Frank trying to get another veteran for the starting rotation. no way you go into next year with Huddy as your lone veteran on the staff. Jurrjens and Hanson?? Havent been around long enough to be considered vets, and with their injuries at the end of the year, can we really depend on them for the whole season again?
October 31st, 20113:28 pm
….. what’s the difference? LOL
I know you’re mostly joking, but that’s a horrible way of looking at it.
OJ – The Braves are paying the ten mill. It is costing the Indians $5mill.
October 31st, 20113:31 pm
Jimmy, i realize that now, lol, thanks. BUt still, 5 million. Thats a lot for a team like the Indians
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