6:49 pm October 24, 2011, by David O'Brien
P-Town Brave ©
October 31st, 20111:00 pm
Anyone still feel like JJ gets moved?
His salary is really questionable to me
October 31st, 20111:01 pm
See,it wasn’t a hoke.
Efrim … thanks for posting the scouting info. Very interesting stuff on the Braves system.
I agree with your call-outs.
Going for college players over high school players.
Moving away from the international draft.
Spending a low amount on signing players.
I’m sure that this philosophy will change. I hope it’s just a short term hiatus while much of the developing talent has moved into the majors for their six+ years. Braves might be able to tread water for a couple of years.
Next year’s draft will tell. If the Braves don’t restock the talent pool, we may be four-six years away from a long stretch as the Royals/Pirates/Orioles/…
October 31st, 20111:02 pm
Was apparent from day Wren said publicly he didn’t see Lowe in 2012 rotation that he’d be traded, for whatever salary relief Braves could get.
And anyone who is at all concerned about what Braves getting back in return, player-wise, is missing the point. As we said all along, purely a salary dump. Name they get back is just a name. Only thing that mattered was getting rid of some portion of his remaining salary.
October 31st, 20111:03 pm
Although, FW may have a philosophy of trade developed talent to restock the minors at a higher level. Vizcaino and Pastornicky being a couple of examples. That avoids signing bonuses but may still get top talent into the system.
I doubt it will get them six years of a superstar though.
Olney says it is a LH relief pitcher
October 31st, 20111:04 pm
Now the Braves have some financial flexibility to make some moves.
As I stated earlier today… we needed to move quickly to trade Lowe.. Great job Wren!!!
Still shaking my head… I know Efrim and I have been saying it for a while but to see others printing it makes it even more sad as I was hoping I was wrong and not seeing clearly.
“Atlanta has shifted its draft philosophy”
“The Braves used to focus on younger players…Now they concentrate primarily on college players who might have lower ceilings but cost less”
“The Braves … aren’t in the market for the big-bucks [international] prospects like they were when they signed Teheran for $850,000 in 2007.”
All around cuts. Just a bad move to go. It’s not what made this team successful during the ’90’s. It’s the exact opposite. I wonder if this is a reason for Kemp resigning.
October 31st, 20111:05 pm
LH relief pitcher from A-ball. I’ll take the 5 million in salary relief. Braves have some breathing room now.
October 31st, 20111:06 pm
Name they get back is just a name.
Poor bastard. Can’t even look at himself in the mirror anymore. I hear they’ll give him a jersey with the number 5 and the name “Salary Relief” on the back.
October 31st, 20111:08 pm
LOWE traded, the only option we had that was a good one, and for 5 mill. WREN is a true magician. Rabbit out of the hat folks, if true..
October 31st, 20111:09 pm
TP,I’ll bet you he sweats less than Lowe though.
October 31st, 20111:10 pm
Braves just traded Lowe to the Cleveland Indians for cash considerations.
October 31st, 20111:11 pm
No Kawakami, Mclouth, and no Lowe as of today.
Who’s left on the bad investments?
October 31st, 2011
Under the circumstances outline here, that would not be surprising. A real wet blanket on an otherwise sunny news day……..LaRUSSA, LOWE.
Under the circumstances outlined here, that would not be surprising. A real wet blanket on an otherwise sunny news day……..LaRUSSA, LOWE.
Lowe gone, Parrish gone… this offseason is off to a great start!!
McFann O O o Get Well Soon, Nolie!!
October 31st, 20111:12 pm
Soph See, my clubs are no joke. Better not have to make one about anybody next year.
Yeah, hopefully not—this is serious business.
Still have Heyward in RF…
October 31st, 20111:13 pm
random? you thoughts? lew was also sure braves wouldnt pay salary to say bye to lowe. shows there is always a first time!!!!
this is great news. i wish the lowe deal had worked out better, but the team just improved big time. nice job wren.
October 31st, 20111:14 pm
Now if we could just lure back Julio Lugo we’d be set for 2012!
October 31st, 20111:15 pm
DAP, too bad it just happened this offseason.. but I guess better late then never.
Murph – Not Funny!
Beachy, Minor, and the Latin Trio. That group makes 60+ starts for the team next year, as it stands now. And the group doesn’t have 60 career big league starts, as it stands now.
Somebody in that crew better be as good as we hope they are.
DAP,now we have $7 million to give to Alex Gonzalez!
October 31st, 20111:16 pm
haha, CB…oh joy!
October 31st, 20111:17 pm
October 31st, 20111:18 pm
Ignore that,scoots. Misread.
Wren moves fast. Never underestimate his vacation plans to Tahiti. Also, if I am understanding correctly here, he paid only 5 mil of his remaining salary? Holy smokes that’s awesome.
October 31st, 20111:19 pm
CB, Hudson, Hanson, and Jurrjens, plus two of the youngsters.
October 31st, 20111:20 pm
And the group doesn’t have 60 career big league starts, as it stands now.
The only way to build that number up is to get starts…
I understand why everyone is hesitant to go with rookies in the rotation and at SS… but sooner or later these guys have to either prove themselves or just go away.
I’d rather have a team full of rookies who are eager to compete and have athletic ability than a team full of Lowe’s who have all of the experience in the world but can’t (or won’t) execute.
Out with the old, in with the new
No, we’re sending 10 mil.
*cough* Chipper *cough*
And before anyone jumps on me for it, its because of his salary….Chipper now at 8M would be ok w/ me….think Lance Berkman this year for STL….and look at his value at that rate….granted, Chipper hasn’t hit like Lance did for years, but 8 would be much easier to swallow than what he is making…
ncscoots, yes and that’s why I think I would bring in a vet to compete with these guys during ST and prossibly taking a flier on someone like Justin Duchscherer who could be a great RH addition to the pen or possibly compete for a spot in the rotation. Plus would come at around the league minimum.
Brian – the Indians pay $5 million…Braves pay the other 10
October 31st, 20111:21 pm
T-Paul, that 1:06 was brilliant. I know people type it more than they mean it, but I actually laughed out loud when I read that. Well done.
To those who didn’t think that A) the Braves would eat a chunck of Lowe’s salary, or B) find a taker for Lowe…….
Nevermind, Braves paying 10 mil. So what, he was useless to us going into ‘12 anyways. 5 mil to spend on more important things.
Chris Jones is the pitcher going from CLE to ATL.
October 31st, 20111:22 pm
He paid 10 million of the remaining 15.
Taking the Tampa approach would be nice, but with our horrid draft spending, how much longer can we sustain relying on the kids and when will the well run dry?
It seems as though they don’t want to spend on drafts and they don’t want to make a splash in FA and get a big bat….
So the real question is, where in the hell do they want to focus the money on?! Or do they even want to spend the money at all?!
Chris Jones is an A-ball left hander reliever.
October 31st, 20111:26 pm
That’s fine. Just remember that, when the urge to p!ss and moan about rookie mistakes and rookie performance starts bubbling up. Most folks here tend to think these kids are supposed to perform like 10-year vets, when they don’t even know the names of the road-trip hotels.
Folks will burn candles in church in the hope that some kid will take a vet’s spot, only to burn the kid at the stake when he actually plays to his experience.
October 31st, 20111:27 pm
“Lowe gone, Parrish gone… this offseason is off to a great start!!”
Yup. The mere fact of replacing Lowe with one of the “kids” in the rotation is a victory by itself. Then when you add in that Wren now has 5 more million to work with? Bonus!
One more big move coming via trade. Bank on it.
As of right now, rotation is Huddy, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Minor. With Medlen as the immediate long-man, spot starter.
Wouldn’t shock me at all to see another pitcher moved to make room for Delgado or Teheran. Perhaps not before spring. Maybe not even before June. But if Jurrjens proves to be healthy, I bet he’s moved before 2012 season is done. Especially since it seems clear Gilmartin is also on the fast track.
If Wren can manage to find another impact bat (not just talking HR, just simply a guy that can hit and be relied upon), the rest of the NL should and will take notice.
Because if you simply eliminate D-Lowe from last year’s rotation, this team would have won in the ballpark of 5 more games. It’s really that simple. Addition by subtraction would have left the Cards watching the post-season on TV.
Real value of the trade will be Lowe for whatever we can do with the $5M. Wren continues to gain momentum and learn from his mistakes, which is a good thing all around.
I assume change in Philosophy is due to a combination of $$$ constraints, and the need to have more near-ready prospects. Hope this will be reversed over time. I do believe the best way to be strong is to maintaoin strong scouting and player developement. That said, when you trade for guys like Vizciano, you obtain top prospects without paying the signing bonuses.
October 31st, 20111:28 pm
Haha… Wow, No mo D-Lowe. Wren is starting early. That’s good news!
LHP Chris Jones is who the Braves get back in the Lowe deal and he sounds like he could be a possible situational lefty down the road somewhere given his splits
October 31st, 20111:29 pm
From Kevin Goldstein’s twitter account:
“New #Braves LHP Chris Jones has average velo, a good breaking ball and tons of deception. LHB can’t touch him. Potential LOOGY.”
So we got a younger, cheaper George Sherril?
Braves have one of the best GMs in baseball. And an underrated one, I would say.
October 31st, 20111:31 pm
Scouting report probably had “polished” in there somewhere. Deal-closer.
Wouldn’t shock me at all to see another pitcher moved to make room for Delgado or Teheran.
That would shock me. Going into the season with Tim Hudson, Tommy “injury-waiting-to-happen” Hanson, and three guys under 25 is not a contender.
It isn’t that I don’t want these young guys to be in the rotation at the same time. It’s that I don’t want them all breaking into the majors at the same time. Stagger them a year or so at a time for the learning curve and the cost curve. Plus, the way this team is “drafting” now, the longer this can be spread out the better.
Random is so annoying. He thinks he is never wrong. Then he has the nerve to quote other fans’ “mistakes” and “ignorance”. Now he is wrong on Lowe. As was I, but I have NEVER claimed to be a know it all either.
October 31st, 20111:33 pm
IF Braves stay around what payroll has been….they will have about 10M give or take for a SS, 2 bench players, and filling out the pen (if thats necessary)….
“As of right now, rotation is Huddy, Hanson, Jurrjens, Beachy, Minor. With Medlen as the immediate long-man, spot starter. ”
Does anyone really think we’ll have Hanson and Jurrjens together in the rotation for this next season? Wouldn’t be surprised to see one of them out for the majority of the year.
I guess it is along the same line of thought that Prado and Heyward will both be productive everyday OFs next season.
October 31st, 20111:34 pm
TenPaul, agree, agree, agree! The rotation, though deep and a little crowded, has some health question marks and like you say – some really young kids.
I wish he would spend a little more on the draft, but I realize that those decisions are somewhat out of the control of the GM’s office. Wren does seem to be very adept at make a decision and then acting on it quickly. It can occasionally bite him (Soriano trade), but overall I think it’s a pretty good quality in a GM, and gives me confidence in the moves he makes for the club.
October 31st, 20111:35 pm
Classic. Look for Salary Relief to rise quickly through the system. It’ll be nice to have a rotation littered with signability backed by a pen of Salary Relief.
October 31st, 20111:36 pm
I agree T-Paul, which is why I said it might not happen until June or so. Perhaps letting Jurrjens’ “value” rise a bit upon finding out if he’s healthy or not. Also need to see on Hanson, and of course how the kids perform.
That being said, they might simply trade Beachy or Minor to make room for a Delgado or Teheran.
I’m not sure how I feel about that. But there is no denying that if Wren is looking for an inexpensive (young) impact bat, perhaps Beachy or Minor currently have more value than Jurrjens does?
Hard to say. But I don’t think Wren is going to mess around waiting to see if Prado, Chipper, Heyward and whoever we have at SS is ready to carry this team.
If I had to guess, I’d predict that Wren will go get a LF with some pop and shift Prado into that super utility role, knowing that if Chipper goes down, Prado can play everyday at 3B, and they can certainly find AB for Prado if everybody is healthy. Prado probably deserves better than that. But it just might be what he’s best suited for. Ultimately the TEAM needs to come first.
October 31st, 20111:37 pm
Derek Lowe is just an enigma to me. The guy pitched soo bad down the stretch this year and pitched so great down the stretch last year.
Overall the guy wasn’t good for the Braves. The move at the time for him was a good one. But he just didn’t perform. Guy was 40-39 with a 4.57 ERA as a Brave. Had to cut him loose at the $15 million price tag.
That being said… Someone having to pay him $5 million next year will probably get a bargain.
People just want a pitcher traded for a weakness in the lineup and all the while you could be weakening a strength.
PT, I guess it’s really a matter of managing expectations…
I can only speak for myself, but ever since the playoff string was broken, I’ve had my doubts about the Braves’ overall ability to compete for a WS title. I think they’ve come a long, long ways in the last 2 years, but there’s still a long, long ways to go.
If I thought the team was right there with the Phillies and Yankees of the world I’d probably take a much less cavalier attitude about putting rookies in at SS and SP. I still think they are a year or two away, though, depending on what happens with Chipper.
There will be money to spend after this season, a team full of young guys who have actual MLB time under their belt, and some other guys who have had another season to develop in the minors… I feel great about the future of Atlanta baseball! I just don’t see the team having all of the pieces to go all the way this next season, which is why I’d opt for youth over washed-up experience.
2013 and beyond, though… lookout!
October 31st, 20111:38 pm
Seems not many are giving Medlen much respect as a potential starter if needed. Little guy can perform pretty decently.
Glad to hear the DLiwe news. After last season, i figured Wren couldn’t get 100,000 for Lowe.
Instead he gets $5M.
Thank goodness for teams like the Indians.
Anyone still feel like JJ gets moved?
His salary is really questionable to me
He’s now the second most experienced starter, he’ll turn 26 in Jan, I can’t see that. 4 of the 5 starters 26 or younger.
Regardless I’m happy to see Lowe hit the road.
October 31st, 20111:39 pm
Would shock me quite a bit. As bad as Lowe was last year, he still finished 2nd on the team in innings pitched. A real challenge for this team next year is going to be getting their starting pitchers deep enough into ballgames to avoid burning O’Ventbrel out by July. Considering that Hudson is the only guy in the rotation with a track record of delivering around 200 innings a year, I’d be very suprised to see Wren part with JJ or Hanson, who are “veterans” of this current rotation.
Also makes improving the bullpen this offseason and even MORE important task than it already was. Fredi needs to have options outside of the big 3 that he can trust.
“IF Braves stay around what payroll has been….they will have about 10M give or take for a SS, 2 bench players, and filling out the pen”
Ok, I’ll buy those numbers. Why not keep the bullpen relatively the same, and find an outfield bat for about 8-10 million. Sign a SS for 2 million. Surely A-Gon isn’t worth more than $2 million a year?
October 31st, 20111:40 pm
I hope that Jones does relatively well for the Braves, but even if he does, I don’t think I’ll be able to resist using the nickname “Salary Relief”. That’s just fantastic.
October 31st, 20111:41 pm
Surely A-Gon isn’t worth more than $2 million a year?
Worth more? No.
Will he get more? Almost certainly.
Great offseason so far!! Good bye DBLOWE!!!!!!!!!!!!1
October 31st, 20111:42 pm
“That would shock me. Going into the season with Tim Hudson, Tommy “injury-waiting-to-happen” Hanson, and three guys under 25 is not a contender.”
I’m not trying to be an ass, but just think about what you just typed.
1991 Braves rotation ages at start of season:
Tom Glavine 25
Charlie Leibrandt 34
John Smoltz 24
Steve Avery 21
Kent Mercker 23
Pete Smith 25
I realize that Glavine and Smith were actually 25, not “under” 25. But had the defense and lineup been better in 1991 before JS took over and brought in TP, Belliard, Nixon, Bream and such…. that 1990 team would have “contended”.
Perhaps having 3 guys under 25 isn’t the best way to win a WS. But I’m sorry dude, if Wren uses some of the pitching to get another bat, and the kids fill out the rotation? We’ll contend with the NL teams.
You know, this is still early in the deal. I remember last winter when Wren pulled in Linebrink. The amount of cash kept changing. It would be cool if by the time the dust settles the team paid half and not 2/3rds.
IF we plan on trading anyone else to get more pieces or put together a team complete enough to challenge for a World Series its down to either Jurrjens or Prado IMO given the salary bumps….
And frankly, Prado is more valuable to the team given what he can do and the depth of pitching we posess.
October 31st, 20111:44 pm
Hard to believe John Smoltz was once 24…
I think that the Braves’ place in the standings around the trade deadline has a direct correlation to Jurrjens future with the team. If the Braves are in contention, there is almost no way Wren agrees to part with him. However, if the Braves are out of the race (and JJ is pitching well), it seems really unlikely that they wouldn’t look to move him for an impressive return of players.
Btw, remember last year when the Indians offered Drew Pomeranz for Mike Minor, straight up? I guess that’s how FW knew that they weren’t all that good at judging pitchers
As long as we don’t plan on bringing Conrad back, I think we’ve hit the quad win w/ the exsponging of McLouth, Kawakami, and Lowe….
And gladly, no Proctor or Linebrink heading out that pen door….
Lowe will end up getting $55 mill for three seasons from Braves, during which he was 40-39 with a 4.75 ERA in 101 starts and 575-1/3 innings. That works out to more than $95,000 per inning, or $1.375 mill per win.
It’s funny. Guys looking at the draft are saying, “We’d better win now cuz the future sucks.”
Guys looking at the rotation are saying “2013 WS champs.”
October 31st, 20111:45 pm
No surprise on Lowe trade at all. Glad to eat those dollars and clear a bunch off the books. I have two former players now playing lower A ball in Cleveland. Wonder if they will be coming to Atlanta? Gonna make a call or two to see and let you know.
Also of no great surprise is La Russa stepping down. Perfect time to fold the tent if you ask me. Not everyone gets to leave winning it all. Beats the hell out of a farewell tour in your last year. With Tony gone Pujols is also going out the door IMO. Three reasons: WS champ, career manager leaving, more money elsewhere. Fans can clamor for his return all they want but St. Louis is turning a new page with a new manager plus they can’t afford him and La Russa knows it. If you ask me, and you did right? I would say the Marlins are my guess. I haven’t heard any definitive front runner but I see him staying in the NL with a solid contender with deep pockets and not located on the West Coast. Wouldn’t count out the Nats either but I’ll stick with the Marlins. Reasons: Money, culture, Guillen, new stadium. We’ll see very soon. Probably before winter meetings.
Rock on……go Jackets!
October 31st, 20111:46 pm
Will it matter anyways?
JJ never pitches in September and rarely through August….so he may be damaged goods again by the trade deadline…
My only worry about going with the kids is innings and wearing down as the season ends. But there are many ways it could play out.
Medlen could be used in the rotation early in the year, and then shifted to the pen when/if Teheran or Delgado are ready to take over.
I almost think another strong bullpen arm is a must just in case the innings load on the starters end doesn’t improve. But here’s the thing. Can Hanson and Jurrjens really be relied upon to eat innings either? I’m not so sure. Even if healthy.
Any way Wren shapes up the 25 man roster and rotation moving forward is secondary though. Ridding ourselves of Lowe and 5 million dollars might be the biggest move of the winter, and the move that puts us over the top. Might have allowed the Braves to keep Hinske if nothing else.
October 31st, 20111:48 pm
don’t think I’ll be able to resist using the nickname “Salary Relief”. That’s just fantastic.
Standard unwritten rule is that no nickname can be three syllables or more. I’m going with “Lief”.
Yes. Great start to the off-season….could care less if Lowe gets 20 wins next year.
October 31st, 20111:49 pm
I don’t know why you guys call Jones Salary Relief – he just cost us 10 million.
What about Sal Lief
October 31st, 20111:51 pm
Can Hanson and Jurrjens really be relied upon to eat innings either? I’m not so sure. Even if healthy.
Both averaged at or above 7 IP per start in the first half last year, pre-injury. No reason to think they won’t do so again.
Or maybe spelled “S’liefy”?
October 31st, 20111:53 pm
All we got was a minor leaguer? Wow…seems weird, what the ammount of money the Braves still have to pay Lowe…
RC, we got time to work on the nickname, I think. But, I’m with you, “Salary Relief” has to be the basis of it.
RC, I think we can avoid the burn in the pen with use of guys like Martinez, Medlen and a possible signing of Justin Duchscherer to go more than 1 inning at a time.
Yes I should have clarified it with the number of starts also included. Delgado, Teheran, Minor and Vizcaino are much less experienced than Smoltz, Averay and Merker.
Avery had started 21 games the season before.
Smoltz had 75 starts and 500+ innings in the majors over 3 seasons prior to 1991.
Mercker wasn’t a starter, he had 4 that season.
Pistol Pete had been up since 1987, had 78 career starts and almost 500 IP prior to 1991.
So think again on what I said. It would be Minor (23 starts, 120+ IP), Teheran (3 starts, 19IP), Delgado (7 starts, 35IP), Vizcaino (0 starts, 17 IP) and of course Beachy the grizzled 25 year old vet of the bunch (28 starts, 150+ IP). Not going to happen if they wish to contend this coming season.
October 31st, 20111:54 pm
Gonzo may well get more $$$ and more years offered to him than you think. Braves may not be able to afford him.
Except that the face they averaged that many innings could have been what led to their injuries. But there’s really no way of knowing. If looking at track records, I would expect Hanson to stay relatively healthy this year, while JJ is kind of a crap shoot at this point.
October 31st, 20111:55 pm
…first half last year, pre-injury. No reason to think they won’t do so again.
Well, to be fair, that injury turning point is a solid reason to be skeptical.
“No reason to think they won’t do so again.”
No reason? I’ve got two of them. Hanson’s shoulder and Jurrjens’ knee. If they are healthy, I agree with you. I’m not counting on either of them being healthy. And I bet that Wren isn’t either.
Which of course is why he could simply choose to let them grind it out early in the year, and then insert the kids as those two go down with injury. If they are both healthy? Good for us.
But I’d be more shocked if both of them make 25+ starts next year and get anywhere close to 200+ IP, than I would if Wren chose to trade one of them. But that’s just me.
October 31st, 20111:56 pm
1991 Braves rotation ages at start of season:
Tom Glavine 25
Charlie Leibrandt 34
John Smoltz 24
Steve Avery 21
Kent Mercker 23
Pete Smith 25
Those guys were young but had some experience, too.
Glavine around 100 starts
Smoltz around 70
Smith around 80
Just call him Sally and be done with it.
N8 – The Braves already picked up the option Hinske. This was an hour or so before the Lowe trade was announced.
Please spend some money on an outfielder. That is all I ask. 8-10 million on an outfielder.
If you need to get 2 more ridiculous veteran bullpen arms again…please don’t overpay.
And please don’t overpay A-Gon.
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