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4,024 comments Add your comment
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
4:41 pm
I recall clamoring for Matt Moore on a return for Soriano that year. Hah! Or at least Nick Barnese. Oh well. I still don;t think it was that bad. Tex for Kotchman and Marek was the worst trade Wren made. He could of takent the two draft picks and instead…………. the Kotch.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
4:42 pm
There was nothing good about Ridgway and Aybar would have been good on the bench.
I think you’re forgetting a little of the Aybar back-story, aren’t you? I mean, the guy played all of 36 games his year in Atlanta, had the personal problems, and like that. Tends to lower expectations a tad.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2011
4:44 pm
One reason we didn’t get much for Soriano was that the trade was mostly a salary dump. Same reason we won’t get anything in return for Lowe (in addition to Lowe sucks).
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
4:44 pm
Their was no alternative for Soriano. They couldn’t keep him. Teixiera? Two draft picks – both in the top 35 selections.
RC
October 26th, 2011
4:44 pm
Tex for Kotchman and Marek was the worst trade Wren made. He could of takent the two draft picks and instead…………. the Kotch.
Totally agree. It’s not the worst move he’s made (why, hello Kenshin) but is easily the worst trade.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
4:45 pm
Those “meetings” in Orlando should come to the conclusion that more offense in RF will be Jason Heyward
Nope. Disagree with this. Those meetings should determine the ordinal list of outfield options to acquire. Spring Training should be the point of determination of who is in RF and in what capacity.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2011
4:46 pm
scoots – “Aybar had personal problems” is a gross understatement.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
4:47 pm
Teixiera? Two draft picks – both in the top 35 selections.
Well, there probably weren’t any high-floor, polished college lefties available that year, anyway.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
4:48 pm
a gross understatement
My southern civility coming into play, I reckon, LOL.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2011
4:48 pm
10Paul@4:45 – I think you are right on. I think a lot of decisions will be made during ST this year.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
4:48 pm
Well, there probably weren’t any high-floor, polished college lefties available that year, anyway.
Ha! Good stuff.
RC
October 26th, 2011
4:50 pm
Their was no alternative for Soriano. They couldn’t keep him. Teixiera? Two draft picks – both in the top 35 selections.
Or worst case, he accepts arb, and you get to have another year of Mark Teixeria on your team.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
4:51 pm
Tex for Kotchman and Marek was the worst trade Wren made.
Just atrocious.
I think you’re forgetting a little of the Aybar back-story, aren’t you?
I think it is overwhelmed by the Ridgway front story.
RC
October 26th, 2011
4:51 pm
Teixiera? Two draft picks – both in the top 35 selections.
You know who was drafted with one of the compensation picks the Yankees got for Teixiera.
Mike Trout. (dammit)
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
4:52 pm
Or worst case, he accepts arb, and you get to have another year of Mark Teixeria on your team.
Wren may not have the ability to know if Soriano would accept, but c’mon. Everyone on the planet knew Teixeira was going to decline.
RC
October 26th, 2011
4:52 pm
Sorry, the pick the Yankees gave up for Teixeria (the Angels got the pick).
Still dammit though.
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
4:54 pm
Nope. Disagree with this. Those meetings should determine the ordinal list of outfield options to acquire. Spring Training should be the point of determination of who is in RF and in what capacity.
Let’s see your list. What are some options you’d be interested in? I’m asking because it’s important to who Heyward will be competing with. Is it Carlos Quentin? If so, there probably isn’t a competition unless it’s with him or Prado. Or is a 4th outfielder type who might(I stress “might”) be able to handle the full time job. I guess my point is that you are taking what Wren said 100% to heart, and this was before the organizational meetings and a day after he got his guts ripped out by the Phillies allowing the Cardinals to make the postseason. I think they have financial constraints, TenneseePaul – and those constraints will limit their targets to guys who probably won’t be capable of doing more than handling LHP in a platoon with Heyward or subbing in LF when Chipper is on the bench.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2011
4:54 pm
Everyone on the planet knew Maddox was going to decline…
It probably is a valid point with Tex.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
4:55 pm
not on Wren, but everybody in the known universe knew that Shef was going to decline too. Must be a Braves thing after the Maddux fiasco
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
4:55 pm
Well, there probably weren’t any high-floor, polished college lefties available that year, anyway.
I was waiting for that.
June 2012. Be there. The moment of truth!
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
4:56 pm
I think it is overwhelmed by the Ridgway front story.
He had a pulse, which is about all the value Willy Aybar had at the end of that season. A good ballgirl would have brought in as much.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
4:57 pm
I believe I remember some discussion around baseball that Maddux might accept.
RC
October 26th, 2011
4:57 pm
not on Wren, but everybody in the known universe knew that Shef was going to decline too. Must be a Braves thing after the Maddux fiasco
It was definitely a Braves thing after the Maddux fiasco. Braves filed a formal complaint with the commissioner’s office against the Yankees because they claimed that the deal was in place before the arb deadline, but the Braves couldn’t be sure so they didn’t offer arb. But the deal was signed so quickly after the deadline they argued that they must have already had it set up, meaning we should have gotten the Yankees pick.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
4:57 pm
Let’s see your list.
I’m flattered you care about my list. But honestly it is irrelevant… and I haven’t made it.
The Braves front office knows what they can do with the assets and money they have. I do not.
They also would know more about who is available for what, which I do not know.
So I can speculate all day and still be wrong. But it doesn’t change the fact that the meetings should focus on the list and not simply be a moment when they toast to Heyward and peruse the 6 year minor leaguers for another Mather.
RC
October 26th, 2011
4:58 pm
Well, there probably weren’t any high-floor, polished college lefties available that year, anyway.
Well, there were, but we had already drafted them. That’s the year the Braves got Mike Minor.
Pascual
October 26th, 2011
4:59 pm
Phil, why do you guys pick on BFS80’s so much and why do you think he has multiple personalities, I happened to be on here one day when that Sonny whatshisface was riding him for something absolutely ridiculous and so I jumped in to try and give him some support and since then if he’s on here and doesn’t go too far out on a limb for me I try to follow in line with him because the youngster seems to know his stuff whether you pompous jerks would admit that or not. From the way half of you sound, you’re about 15 years old and in your parents’ basement playing video games while you blog, but that’s just my take…BFS80’s is about 20 years younger than me you insipid twit!
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
5:00 pm
Dang, RC, is that right, re Minor? I stand corrected.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:01 pm
Everyone be really quiet, and maybe it’ll go away….the troll that is.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:02 pm
because the youngster seems to know his stuff whether you pompous jerks would admit that or not
yeah right. and how do you know he is a youngster?
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:03 pm
sorry RC
Brave New World
October 26th, 2011
5:03 pm
DOB: Since we need a Short Stop, what are your thoughts on going after Rollins? He’s a Gold Glover, switch-hitter, with some pop and above average speed. I don’t want Reyes, who will likely be overpaid, but Rollins might be had for 3 or 4 years at $10 million or so. Rollins at 32 would seems to have a few good years in him.
Murph
October 26th, 2011
5:03 pm
All of this talk about bad GM moves is depressing
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
5:04 pm
because the youngster seems to know his stuff whether you pompous jerks would admit that or not
The way it works is, you make your posts, and you either build credibility here or you don’t. Everybody here was a new poster at some point, you know.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:04 pm
ncscoots,
Yep, 2009. Top 10 that year:
1. Stephen Strasburg
2. Dustin Ackley
3. Donavan Tate
4. Jorge Sanchez
5. Matthew Hobgood
6. Zach Wheeler
7. Mike Minor
8. Mike Leake
9. Jacob Turner
10. Drew Storen
The Teixeria pick netted the Angels Mike Trout at pick #25. A lot of pretty impressive names in the first round of that draft.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2011
5:04 pm
When all else fails, use the “parent’s basement” line. It always makes one feel very superior.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
5:04 pm
I guess my point is that you are taking what Wren said 100% to heart
Smile. hmmmmm…. So, that’d be the opposite of being in denial.
I think this “light a fire” theory fails to light fires when the targets are coming into sight as obviously not a challenge.
I’m also thinking the “light a fire” theory is part of the denial phase.
Pascual
October 26th, 2011
5:05 pm
just going by his moniker, a braves fan since the 80’s unless they started to watch the Braves at an advanced age would be considerably younger than me. I was born in 1961 so somebody who started watching the Braves in the 80’s SHOULD be a good bit younger, that didn’t take Sherlock Holmes now did it?
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
5:05 pm
But it doesn’t change the fact that the meetings should focus on the list and not simply be a moment when they toast to Heyward and peruse the 6 year minor leaguers for another Mather.
Never said scouring the six year minor league free agents list for another Mather. In fact, I was quite clear that it needed to be something more than Matt Diaz. Quite clear. You want another banger, and that’s fine to want that, and if they feel that’s what they need to do to win – then go right ahead. But if that’s the route they take, we will know before spring training who is out there in RF, right? Since they were clear that Prado was a starting LF – getting another banger means they would compete with Jason Heyward, right?. I’m simply saying go get a corner outfielder like Chris Heisey who can play in a corner and possibly platoon with Heyward, or sub in for Prado when Chipper is out.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2011
5:05 pm
BNW – I believe Rollins will likely go for more $$$ and more years than that.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:07 pm
I don’t see where there are going to get the funds to sign an outfielder who is going to have a real chance to challenge Heyward all things considered, especially with Diaz on the roster.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:07 pm
Efrim,
I’m on board with Heisey. Question is what it would take to acquire him.
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
5:08 pm
I’m also thinking the “light a fire” theory is part of the denial phase.
Right, TenneseePaul. So every word a GM speaks is the truth and they aren’t saying it for another reason. You didn’t think his comment about Jurrjens having a great instructional league outing meant something else, right? Perhaps trying to lift his trade value a bit?
Brave New World
October 26th, 2011
5:09 pm
RBF: You might be right, but if we could sign him, I think he’d add a lot to our team.
Pascual
October 26th, 2011
5:09 pm
Credibility? On a public opinion blog? and you aren’t 15 years old in your parents basement? that has to be one of the saddest things anyone has ever said to me, you guys have a SERIOUS issue with self-importance, have at it, stay in your little bubbles guys, mommy and daddy will have to keep footing the bills I guess…
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:10 pm
raleighbravefan,
I think Rollins might get more $$ than that, but I doubt he’ll get more years. 3 years with a vesting option for a 4th sounds about right.
Either way, the figures above are well outside of the constraints the Braves have with their payroll.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:10 pm
that didn’t take Sherlock Holmes now did it? @Pascual
no, and it didn’t make a lick of sense either. I know several fans who are older that you are who became fans in the 80s and 90s.
Brave New World
October 26th, 2011
5:11 pm
I never understood the love affair many Braves fans have for Diaz. He’s a part time streaky player.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:11 pm
Don’t engage it! If you leave it alone, it’ll get bored and move on to another blog.
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
5:11 pm
I think this “light a fire” theory fails to light fires when the targets are coming into sight as obviously not a challenge.
Chris Heisey wouldn’t be a challenge? I think he’s the type of player they should look at. Not Joe Mather or Matt Diaz – simply a solid semi-young player with service time that has a strong minor league track record and has dhwon he can hit for power at the major league level. Wish he walked more, but I hope it’s the type of target they look at.
Snotboogie
October 26th, 2011
5:12 pm
just going by his moniker, a braves fan since the 80’s unless they started to watch the Braves at an advanced age would be considerably younger than me.
Not everyone becomes a fan of the Braves when sitting on their high chair and eating mashed peas.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:13 pm
BNW,
I thought he was a very useful player a few years ago, and did great when used effectively (as a strict platoon player). Problem is that he’s as good as he was a few years ago, and Fredi didn’t stick to the “strict” part of the platoon equation.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:15 pm
Heisey would have led the Braves OF in HR last year….with only 279 at-bats.
We could do a lot worse.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:15 pm
On a public opinion blog? and you aren’t 15 years old in your parents basement? that has to be one of the saddest things anyone has ever said to me, you guys have a SERIOUS issue with self-importance, have at it, stay in your little bubbles guys, mommy and daddy will have to keep footing the bills I guess… @Pascual
gee I remember reading almost exactly the same words out of posters with other names, but the words and attitude seriously sound like our old buddy Lou.
RC
October 26th, 2011
5:17 pm
It’s been fun everyone, I’m out for the day. Talk to yall later.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:19 pm
RC, you are comparing what he did in Cincy with what he might have done at the Ted? Can’t agree with that approach.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:20 pm
How was that Uggla second half for you?
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:22 pm
“It’s never easy, and the Braves didn’t, in my opinion, handle the Smoltz and Glavine ones very well. With Chipper, it was almost as if they went the other way, making sure they couldn’t be accused of not giving him the respect he’d earned, etc”
I agree with you DOB. Doesn’t make it “right” or any easier to swallow that contract now, while the Braves are scraping for money. But the way the public perceived the Smoltz and Glavine deals, they had to save face.
I remember being absolutley irrate when news of Smoltz going to Boston came down. Took a few days to calm down, but once it became clear that Wren made a “fair” offer to Smoltz considering his health (and hindsight tells us Wren ABSOLUTELY made the correct call there), I actually sided with Wren.
Glavine? He took longer than they wanted to get ready and unfortunately, Hanson was not only ready, but likely a better option moving forward.
Again. Doesn’t make it right and didn’t make everybody feel better at the time.
But I’m probably in the minority when it comes to NOT thinking that Glavine and Smoltz got the shaft.
People want to cling to the past too much. Anybody paying attention to how the Cal Ripken situation went down towards the end, could see that those teams should have parted ways long before they did.
Sure Chipper is an icon. And clearly with the 10/5 status, he’s earned the right to refuse any trade, and apparently to stay as long as he’d like to.
Doesn’t mean it’s the best thing for making a 25 man roster that is best suited to compete for 162 games.
But if I’m being honest, that Chipper contract is far from the worst one in the past few years. It’s just an easy target when it’s the 2nd biggest on the team and he’s only started about 2/3 of the games the past two seasons. Meanwhile Wren can’t afford to go get a real bat, so…… it is what it is.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:24 pm
N8 H8s Chipper, N8 H8s Chipper
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:25 pm
“Or worst case, he accepts arb, and you get to have another year of Mark Teixeria on your team.”
Nope. worst case is he accepted arbitration and due to it not being in the budget (his salary was pretty much climbing no matter what), Wren would have the been forced to trade somebody else away to clear payroll. Just like trading Millwood after Maddux accepted.
Clearly another year of Tex wouldn’t have been horrible. But since we didn’t make the playoffs twice with him, I can’t imagine what good he would have done us had Wren been forced to moves somebody of value just to keep him for one more run.
Kotchman and Marek for Tex is light years better than the trade that got us Tex in the 1st place.
Cracks me up that anybody has the nutz to rip Wren for what he “got” in return for Tex, when he should have never have been on our team to begin with.
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:26 pm
“N8 H8s Chipper, N8 H8s Chipper”
Nope. N8 H8s dumbasses (IE: BraveFaninBC)
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:27 pm
BraveFaninBC, I will semi apologize. But if THAT is what you took from that post? You ARE a dumbass.
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:28 pm
I do, however, hate that the Braves are strapped with a 14 million dollar contract on a guy that only started around 110 games in 2011, and we missed the playoffs by one game.
THAT sir, I do hate.
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
5:30 pm
Cracks me up that anybody has the nutz to rip Wren for what he “got” in return for Tex, when he should have never have been on our team to begin with.
Come on, N8. We’ve all been through this before. They tried to lengthen the run differential with a big time offensive threat in a position that was getting us didley and it didn’t work. Perhaps he did it because we had just signed Teheran and drafted Heyward/Freeman. Had a really, really deep system even after the trade. Like “Epic” deep.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:31 pm
No, I probably took that from the dozens of your posts that always paint him in some negative way. week after week after week. Fire/smoke kind of thing.
Or maybe just a “sittin’ in a tree” kind of thing
Murph
October 26th, 2011
5:32 pm
N8, be nice to BraveFaninBC… he’s Canadian.
America’s hat.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:33 pm
Who that we could have afforded and had a realistic chance of getting created more runs at that position than Chipper did?
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
5:34 pm
I do, however, hate that the Braves are strapped with a 14 million dollar contract on a guy that only started around 110 games in 2011, and we missed the playoffs by one game
126 games, I thought….
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
5:34 pm
Ah, started. I see.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:34 pm
Watch it Murph, we got lots of deer we could send southward
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:36 pm
Big deer, like wapiti and mooooses
Murph
October 26th, 2011
5:36 pm
I lived in Vancouver for 3 years… loved it. I wasn’t trying to be mean.
Plus, if you sent your deer down here to get me they’d just get stuck at the border… not NEXUS eligible.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:38 pm
we could hire a coyote to get them across
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:39 pm
No more Pascual? I think I nailed that one
Murph
October 26th, 2011
5:40 pm
They’d just run into the militia then… they are watching you. Always watching you.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:41 pm
Obviously we would need some diversionary tactics
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:42 pm
Maybe stampede some polar bears across in front of them
oh wait there aren’t any more polar bears. We might need to use big grizzlies.
Murph
October 26th, 2011
5:43 pm
Could always send in the heroin addicts from Hastings in the first wave… they’d occupy the militia long enough for the deer to break through.
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:44 pm
Guess you were in Vancouver
BraveFaninBC
October 26th, 2011
5:46 pm
I have to go. Good blog today for the most part.
Skeeterleg
October 26th, 2011
5:46 pm
DOB, Why is it upwards to 200 bucks to go see St Vincent at the Earl this weekend? I knew it would sell out, but damn. I love her music, but I think I got priced out.
Murph
October 26th, 2011
5:50 pm
The blog is about to die for an hour… who is going to keep me company and prevent me from posting something offensive?
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:53 pm
Efrim, I have stated many times that while I didn’t think that getting Tex for the stretch run was the right move THAT year, I was excited to have him for a full year, assuming we were going to fix the pitching in the winter. Which Wren tried to do.
It just didn’t work out. In hindsight, because what Feliz and Andrus bring to the Rangers, it’s an easy target to pick on JS for a “horrible” trade. Which it is in hindsight. But JS didn’t have hindsight on his side.
But it STILL cracks me up that Wren gets the shaft for the Angels trade. NOBODY wanted Tex. EVERYBODY knew he was signing with the Yankees that off-season.
Just because JS was stupid enough to give up what he gave up for him (for a 1 year and half of potential service – give or take), doesn’t mean that Wren did a horrible job because the Angels GM wouldn’t give up the farm for 2 months of Tex. That is silly at best to remotely think that way.
Yes, with Chipper I said “started”.
He started 113 games at 3B, going: 287./.357/.491/.847 with 124 hits, 32 doubles, 18 HR and 70 RBI
In 3 games as a DH, he had 1 hit in 13 AB (no walks), to go: .077/.077/.154/.231
In 11 PH appearances, he had zero hits and 1 walk (.000/.091/.000/.091 – just in case you wanted to see the slash line).
So basically, he was pretty worthless in 49 games. Or roughly 1/3 of the season.
If somebody wants to call that hating? Sure. Fine by me. I’m not going to lie. I hate that those were his results.
But in the end, I’m simply posting the numbers for the rose-colored glasses folk, that think that Chipper being an icon and formerly being one of the better, more durable players in all of baseball means jack squat going into 2012 as far as those things helping this team win.
He is what he is. He’s an icon who’s going to be in around 60% of the teams games (starting), and put up pretty mediocre overall numbers.
The Braves could do worse, no doubt. But if they had that 14 million to spend, they could do a lot better.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
5:55 pm
But if that’s the route they take, we will know before spring training who is out there in RF, right?
I do not believe so. If such a player is acquired Heyward could win the job as a platoon player opening up for Prado as a super-utility player. A trade could happen. I do not know who they will target, but I would imagine they will target a young guy as opposed to an old guy. But we’ll see.
As to Chris Heisey, the guy would not light any fires. He’s not even an applicable platoon player. He’s a right handed batter who slaughters righties and is owned by lefties. Not a good sign for his future and not a good precedent for building a platoon.
You didn’t think his comment about Jurrjens having a great instructional league outing meant something else, right?
Wren’s been rather forth coming when it comes to rehabbing players. He’s been rather forth coming with a lot of his statements actually. He has yet to say one thing and do something entirely different that I can think of. Would love to see some examples of Wren as Braves GM doing as much.
CB
October 26th, 2011
5:56 pm
Skeeterleg,my 1st concert attended was probably someone you never heard of – Little Anthony and the Imperials. $3 and I complained too.
N8
October 26th, 2011
5:56 pm
“Could always send in the heroin addicts from Hastings….”
Isn’t there supposed to be an “e” on the end of heroine?
Sorry, a little “The Commitments” humor for anybody who remembers the movie.
Skeeterleg
October 26th, 2011
6:00 pm
I go to tons of shows CB….most around the 15 to 20 dollar range for good bands, so I rarely complain…but this was sixteen, sold out and people with tickets are going crazy.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2011
6:01 pm
In hindsight, because what Feliz and Andrus bring to the Rangers, it’s an easy target to pick on JS for a “horrible” trade. Which it is in hindsight. But JS didn’t have hindsight on his side.
Well, I say it would seem those whose hindsight leads them to this conclusion have their view blocked by their @ss. All the players JS dealt were from depth. Salty was the big target and he is no longer with the Rangers and was back on the depth chart. Andrus was way, way, way down the depth chart. And we’re spending this winter trying to find jobs for about 8 starting pitchers most of whom are under the age of 25.
CB
October 26th, 2011
6:03 pm
Skeeterleg,yeah its tough when you want to go and scalpers or overpricing get involved.
Skeeterleg
October 26th, 2011
6:06 pm
yep. now the legal online scalpers get involved too and make it even worse.
N8
October 26th, 2011
6:26 pm
“Andrus was way, way, way down the depth chart. And we’re spending this winter trying to find jobs for about 8 starting pitchers most of whom are under the age of 25.”
Correct me if I’m wrong T-Paul, but won’t Wren be looking for a SS this winter too?
I’ve never said that those guys shouldn’t have been traded. I just think they should have been traded for somebody who was going to be a Brave longer than a calendar year.
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
6:42 pm
If such a player is acquired Heyward could win the job as a platoon player opening up for Prado as a super-utility player.
I thought Prado is our starting left fielder? Wren said it.
As to Chris Heisey, the guy would not light any fires. He’s not even an applicable platoon player. He’s a right handed batter who slaughters righties and is owned by lefties. Not a good sign for his future and not a good precedent for building a platoon.
I thought he might end up starting instead of Heyward vs. RHP. He’s so good vs. them: .288/.346/.539 in 368 plate appearances in the majors. That could be a fire to light under Heyward, no?
He’s not even an applicable platoon player.
Isn’t the goal to get more outfield production from RF? Heisey did better than Heyward in 2011. He even did better than Prado.
He has yet to say one thing and do something entirely different that I can think of. Would love to see some examples of Wren as Braves GM doing as much.
You got me, TenneseePaul. He’s never said something and not addressed it. Even with Garrett Anderson. I mean, he got an outfield bat. He never said he wanted something better than Loaf, so I guess that means he’s never NOT did something that he set out to do…….
N8
October 26th, 2011
6:44 pm
T-Paul, I think the current depth of an organizations big-league club and the upper minors, causes peopel to react in the manner that they do about certain trades.
The Tex trade is a perfect example of all three phases of how to view a trade based on positional depth.
Salty? He was catching depth behind Mac. Mac is still producing. Salty, not so much. That portion of the trade is a “win” all the way around. Even if Salty was tearing it up, he’d have to be out performing Mac to make it look like a bad add to the trade.
Feliz? While on the surface, you could play the “what if” game with him, meaning “what if” Feliz, Kimbrel, Venters and O’Flaherty were in our bullpen together? WOW. But needless to say, while you can always use good, young bullpen arms (maybe Feliz would have remained a starter for the Braves?), we didn’t have the need for a closer or a #1 (or even a #2) setup guy, so not all is lost.
But that brings us to Andrus. At the time, we still had Renteria with Yunel as the SS for the next decade after that (so we thought), then after giving up on Yunel, we got Gonzo.
But now, here we are 4 years after that trade and scrounging to find a servicable SS that can kind of hit.
It is because of this fact and current need, that the Andrus part of that trade is the hardest to swallow. Not because he’s the best player that we let go. I think Feliz is clearly the “one that got away” in that trade.
But it’s all relative to what you have at that time, or think you have, and what your eventual needs are a few years after the trade. Just like having Wainwright the year that we traded for Tex might have been what that team needed to sneak in the playoffs.
That’s more what I’m talking about with hindsight. Not necessarily what the players in the trade have done since then. More for me about how our situation has changed since then in terms of SS and our current need for one.
It’s like my Chiefs. When Dick Vermeil took over, they let Donnie Edwards go. He signed with the Chargers and went to the pro-bowl 4 or 5 years in a row. Meanwhile DV never did find a suitable MLB the whole time he was the Chiefs HC. They also let Joe Horn go too. Then spent the next 5 years looking for a #1 WR.
Sometimes coaches, managers and GM’s make mistakes. Even if it seemed like the right thing to do at the time.
There are some people that would have been happy had Wren traded one of the young guns at the deadline to get another bat. That bat might have helped us get in (in addition or instead of Bourn), and maybe even helped us win a playoff series or two. Maybe even a WS birth or a title.
But if that player was to be a rental, I’m not sure even all of that is worth it. JD Drew is a perfect example.
Many have said we would have never made the playoffs that year without him. They are right. We wouldn’t have. But I would have sacrificed one year of playoffs (especially considering how we faired in the early 2000’s in the playoffs), to have kept Wainwright and even to an extent Marquis.
But that’s just me. I’m not a huge fan of trading prospects for rentals. In the 90’s it was different. Those players JS traded for usually weren’t rentals. We were usually able to sign them to extensions, thus we were trading prospects for ML ready players, often all-stars that stuck around and produced for years to come.
Believe me. NOBODY would be mentioning the Tex trade had he signed on during free agency. Same with Drew. JS had to know that the window was small, so without a WS birth or title, those trades were calculated risks.
Murph
October 26th, 2011
6:55 pm
I actually think Harrison is going to be the guy that, 10 years from now, people look back and feel like they were punched in the gut. He’s only 25 and seemed to really start to put things together this season.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
6:57 pm
But I would have sacrificed one year of playoffs.
Ain’t buying it, nathan. Huh-uh. Not after seeing how you can rant at the slightest sign of less-than-stellar performance, LOL. The vision of you calmly accepting missing the playoffs for the sake of the future…I can’t quite get there, buddy.
N8
October 26th, 2011
6:58 pm
Good point Murph. He is the oft-not so much talked about piece of that puzzle. But again, because of our pitching depth and promise of young rotation guys to rotate in in the near future, just won’t be “missed” that much. Or might not be anyhow. Just like Feliz.
For me it’s always been about what we possibly could have gotten for that “package” of players over that following winter, as opposed to overpaying for Tex. Only to see him leave a year later….. for Kotchman.
Efrim
October 26th, 2011
6:59 pm
That was a classic N8 post there at 6:44pm.
N8
October 26th, 2011
6:59 pm
I hear you scoots. I’m not saying I wouldn’t have complained about it. But considering that shortly after that (2006-2007-2008-2009) we had a 4 year stretch of missing the playoffs? What the hell would the difference have been in missing out that year?
Again. Hindsight. But your point is noted.
ncscoots
October 26th, 2011
7:00 pm
actually think Harrison is going to be the guy that, 10 years from now, people look back and feel like they were punched in the gut.
Scrub.
N8
October 26th, 2011
7:01 pm
Efrim. I’ve been away for too long the past couple of weeks working my backside off. No time to blog and not much to talk about until the WS is over and the offseason actually begins for real.
I had pent up keystrokes I had to get out or my hands would have exploded. LOL
flange1
October 26th, 2011
7:01 pm
and a classic ’scoots post at 6:57!