TennesseePaul, plate appearances are what matter, not games played. Players get credit for a game played when they pinch-hit once or when they come in for defense. I want my best possible offensive options to get the most plate appearances, not just more games.
How much longer can the Cards pen keep it up, I think this is the series when they run out of gas. Their starters have to do better this series for them to win.
Thanks for the link to the McGwire story as your buddy Goold did a great job reporting on a fellow who was a favorite of mine for a long time, (I will never, ever forget seeing him hit the “H” on the old “Warehouse” sign–high above the left field bleachers–during batting practice at Turner Field during the 2000 season. A buddy, who witnessed the same blast, said, “Yep, believe I could have just gone home after that one and not stayed for the game.”), a player I’ve had mixed emotions about since the Congressional hearings.
I said,” Way to go” when he signed for less to stay with the Cardinals, then donated three million off the top for an abused children’s fund, (sure, I know about the tax deduction possibilities), then watched with admiration as he included the Maris family in the celebrations as he approached and passed the record; all of this after showing the guts to battle back from the scrap heap and those debilitating foot injuries. Now, I suppose I need to take a tack from Dennis Eckersley and applaud one who “fessed up” and had the guts to return to the game he obviously loves.
RC – Maybe. IF Prado were not playing third and IF it was against a RH pitcher, or IF Constanza had not hurt his ankle.
And it wasn’t a matter of getting playing time for one of those other players, but a matter of benching Heywrd because he wasn’t producing.
Shaun – I’m not looking at context? You change the context to suit your purposes. And it doesn’t take context to understand that Upton’s numbers from 07 and 08 were superior to 09-11.
Just getting in to say this morning’s news about John was nothing but good and we’ll be looking forward to the early Christmas for your family and a clean report come December.
“Shaun is arguing that given the choices, Fredo could have played Constanza in LF, Heyward in RF, and benched Prado.”
Except that he couldn’t have replaced Prado, because Prado was needed at 3B. In July and August, Chipper only started 24 games. Prado was needed at 3B. Thus Prado played more than Heyward because he was “useful” at two positions.
Prado was number 2 on the depth chart that goes 2 deep at 3B. Once Chipper couldn’t play, there wasn’t much chance of Prado sitting.
I wasn’t taking a stance one way or another. I was just trying to point out what Shaun was trying to argue. I’m honestly not sure if he’s right or wrong, but I am sure that it’s pretty immaterial at this point.
I do believe we have a whiff of Vermont down here in the Atlanta area with temps dipping down into the 40’s, (the high) for tomorrow and possible frost warnings in the northern suburbs and the mountain counties in North Georgia this weekend.
Also; you can argue with all the brick walls and pound all the nails with your forehead that you want. Just don’t go tripping down those stairs in your Braves attire, with soup on a tray and the dog underfoot !
Heyward had 454 PA. That’s 58 fewer than Chipper, a 39-year-old thirdbaseman who missed time with injury and needed more days off than most to stay fresh at his age. That’s 73 fewer than the starting catcher, who of course needs at least 1-2 days off every week. That’s 136 fewer than the leftfielder who had an OPS+ of 89 compared to Heyward’s 95. That’s 139 fewer than the shortstop who posted and OPS+ of 76.
Now, I understand that Alex Gonzalez had to play because there was no suitable option, particularly not one with his glove. I understand Prado had to play because they needed a backup at third when Chipper was off. But it’s odd to me that Heyward wasn’t somewhere around 5th on the team in PA, ahead of the catcher who needed regular rest because he’s a catcher and ahead of the 39-year-old thirdbaseman who missed time with injuries and had to get regular rest to stay fresh.
Heyward was 9th on the team in OPS+ among players with a minimum of 100 PA, four weren’t true everyday options that should or could have replaced him. Ross was a catcher, Constanza was a 4-A player getting very fortunate on batted balls, Conrad should have only played defense sparingly and Hinske provided much less value than Heyward defensively.
So, among the true, legit everyday player options, Heyward ranked 5th in OPS+. Yet he was 7th on the team in plate appearances. At the very least, he should have been in the Chipper/McCann range, around 515-530 PA and just behind Prado at 590, if we are asserting Prado had to play more because he was the only reliable backup for Chipper.
RC – No problem. You’re right about that – something I’ve tried to tell him over and over – it IS immaterial – It’s over and ain’t going to change.
I also realize that it’s virtually impossible to sway Shaun’s opinion, but it’s a cold, gray, boring day with my wife on a two week business trip and there’s nothing much else to do. Guess I COULD watch Dr. Oz.
Arkansas Transplant, it’s easy for a player to not make errors when his team realizes he’s not a great defensive player and therefore is not going to give him a lot of playing time on defense, and when he has no range and not much of an arm so he’s not going to take too many chances trying to throw people out. Not to knock Hinske, but that’s who he is.
I’ve been meaning to catch you on the blog and say “sorry” for not venturing down to say hello during the season.
It was a different summer indeed with so much time spent away from home, (and the blog). Though I’m usually good for between 30 and 40 games a year, most of my attendance is of the walk-up purchase variety and–though I love to get there early and shag those BP balls in left field–that, too, happened very seldom this year as y arrivals were often just minutes before game time. However, I’ll keep that ball for your youngest over the winter and promise to see you in spring, (I even have your seat location taped to the side of the computer screen from when you gave directions to your season ticket location to…….Soph, I believe).
Lew – balderdash it was the 10 games he was benched for constanza – entire difference nothing else
and lets not look at his numbers after he was benched (didn’t they increase pretty significantly?) which helped his overall numbers since that won’t help the other argument either
And you do also realize that the one way to remedy his playing time situation is for him to actually hit while he’s in the game? Or he could just change his uniform number to 4-3.
tiger – I pointed out the improvement after he’d sat out the majority of those games and was told by Shaun that there was just no proof of it – even after I posted the before and after stats that pretty well proved it.
Heyward his .266/.358/.392/.750 after the infamous “benching.” He was used more in a strict platoon at that point. Up to that point he had hit .218/.309/.388/.697.
Heyward spent 63% of his games hitting 5th or lower in the order. Prado spent 92% of his games hitting 4th or higher (actually 3rd or higher as he never hit 4th this season). That disparity in batting order wholly explains the difference in #PA each player had.
Pointing to a statistically insignificant portion of games when Heyward was benched against a RHP while Prado manned LF is a red herring. A false premiss. An Epic Fail.
Alright. I’m outta here. To the bar to watch the game I go!
Go Cards!
Death to the AL!
And it wasn’t a matter of getting playing time for one of those other players, but a matter of benching Heywrd because he wasn’t producing.
Wasn’t producing compared to whom? You can’t just vaguely say “he wasn’t producing.” Playing time should be doled out by which options are the best. This continues to be overlooked. Alex Gonzalez was awful this season because of his horrible offense. But he was the best option so he should have played and did. He wasn’t producing. The fact that he wasn’t producing, alone, doesn’t tell us whether he did or didn’t deserve playing time. That’s more about which players are the best options.
Prado had to play because he was the best option to play left and thirdbase when Chipper was out. He wasn’t producing but that alone didn’t tell us whether he did or didn’t deserve playing time. His playing time was more a result of him being the best option. We can go down the list. Uggla, was far worse in the first half than anyone on the team. But he was the best option.
The same should have applied to Heyward and didn’t. Because the Braves apparently weren’t concerned with whether he was the best option to help them win. They were more concerned with whether he was living up to hype, disappointing, or whatever. At the major league level, an organization’s job is to try to win games. Sitting your best option because he’s not living up to hype or because he’s disappointing doesn’t help you win games. And if it was purely an off-field issue, why bother having him in the majors? If it’s because on the field, he wasn’t living up to the hype, you should realize he’s still your best option and run him out there everyday. Costing him reps doesn’t help with that, especially if the alternatives are inferior players.
The whole thing doesn’t make sense. And it has nothing to do with fandom. I would be just as outraged if I were a fan of some other team. In fact, I know at least one baseball writer who was confused and outraged by the whole thing and he had no interest in the Braves whatsoever.
This is a bigger issue than Heyward for me. This is an issue with how the team evaluates players. Are they too reliant on batting average as a measure of offensive value? Are they more concerned with players living up to standards that marketing departments, fans and prospect lists set or are they more concerned with trying to win baseball games?
If this were about Heyward more than my concern with how the team is evaluating and viewing players, I would be on here making irrational comments about how Heyward is going to bounce back and win the MVP and rah rah Heyward and all sorts of other irrational nonsense.
But this is much more about my concern with the direction of the Braves’ front office. Are they too old-school? Is the manager too old-school? Does he look at evidence and analysis? Does the front office rely on smart people who know how to do objective analysis or are they too reliant on old-school ideas of batting average and other triple crown stats? I have faith in Wren but I’m growing concerned.
haggard – yeah I was worried about you after you dropped out of sight…the plan is to be there next year again…I’m going to be torn there is a chance I have to move for work. I can still buy the tickets and just sell them all I guess
Alright. I’m outta here. To the bar to watch the game I go!
Go Cards!
Death to the AL!
Whaaa….
There are two sides to the Cards winning.
If they win – the Braves’ infamous collapse will be mentioned every time they talk about St.Louis coming from 10.5 GB. We’ll never be allowed to forget.
On the other hand, the Cards will always be termed a team of destiny rolling towards an improbable WS title and we’d be mere collateral damage in their path.
Hard to decide which way I want it. I’ll just try to enjoy a good fight, I guess.
This is a bigger issue than Heyward for me. This is an issue with how the team evaluates players
I may not know much, but I know damn well the Braves coaches and front office have a hell of a lot more to go on evaluating the players than you do. Day to day up close observations of how they (players) do what they do, what they do not and why.
To all you guys that are non-stop doubting Heyward I want you to go bang up your shoulder to where it hurts when you swing the bat and tell me it doesn’t effect your swing and your timing. The bottom line is despite Wren and Fredi saying that Heywards shoulder was not a problem, it obvious that it was/is. Read the following excerpt from one of DOB’s blogs a couple weeks ago:
————————————————–
In the final week of the season, Heyward was asked about his offseason plans.
“First, heal,” he said. “Figure out if there’s anything else I can do to get healthy. Then just go to work. I feel like I’ll most definitely put more time in in the cage. Not that I ever slacked off at any point, it’s just that when you have injuries and get away from your confidence level, you’ve got to work twice as hard to get it back. So most definitely do that.
“Other than that, working out and staying in shape has never been a problem. I’ve always had a good work ethic. But as far as the cage goes, just get after it, take my time and pay a lot of attention to detail.”
Heal? Did that mean something still felt wrong with the shoulder?
“I don’t know if it’s back-related, neck-related or whatever,” Heyward said. “I just feel like, get to the bottom of whatever it is. I mean, because I don’t feel like it’s better, as far as 100 percent. It still nags me. I just want to get to the root of the problem. Just take the time, because it’s my career and I owe it to myself to most definitely get that checked. I just want to know, is there anything I can do to feel better?”
—————————————–
Now does that sound like someone who is healthy to you? Come on, he says that the first thing he needs to do is heal and figure out if there is anything he can do to get healthy. Now why would that be his priority if he was healthy and unaffected by his shoulder?
If you remember, when he went on the DL he originally said he wasn’t going to swing a bat until he was pain-free. Thats when Chipper called him out and stated that an unhealthy Heyward in the line-up was better than no Heyward. So he sucked it up(figuratively and literally) and tried to find a way to play in pain and still play good ball. Now that the season is over, Heyward is being candid and admitting that his shoulder is not right; which is why he had an MRI.
Hopefully Heywards shoulder will heal with rest during the offseason and is not something that eventually is going to require surgery. Once he heals, I think you will see the Heyward that we are all expecting.
The same should have applied to Heyward and didn’t. Because the Braves apparently weren’t concerned with whether he was the best option to help them win. They were more concerned with whether he was living up to hype, disappointing, or whatever. — Shaun
Utterly absurd. You lose more credibility with each sentence you write about your Heyward obsession.
you catch SOA last night? if so what do you think bout the ending of last nights episode
After the first strains of “Strange Fruit” started playing, I knew what was coming. Then he grabbed the chains and … oh, man, that was a riveting couple of minutes of TV, as that series and few others can provide.
I wish they’d have played Billie Holiday’s original version of “Strange Fruit,” but the one they used was still powerful and perfect for that scene (knowing what we’d learned in recent episodes about Juice’s lineage).
DOB, that was a great article about McGwire. About time he got some good p.r. Got to love Shaun’s view of Heyward. He is a passionate fan, ok obsessive. Wait, you already said that.
EL RETO wren apasado muchas yo como fans e visto y lo qme queda por desir es en casi 10 a|~os no a reoganisado el club y ahora TAREA D CONSEGUIR CHOUCH D BATEO si no invierte no llegaremos a ver otra serie mundial mientras este como GM
I just wanted to thank Frank Wren and the Braves for directly impacting this 2011 World Series.
Without their disastrous trade for Mark Teixeira and franchise worst collapse this year, the Cardinals and Rangers wouldn’t be here. Thanks Braves, great job
That the Braves new draft/international signing approach is the new Moneyball. The rest of the league is doing it one way, and the Braves have found value in the system.
I think accurately predicting an 18-year-old’s ceiling is very, very difficult. I think different scouts think of the same players with a wide range of ceilings. I think, until four or five years have passed after a draft, and a team’s selections are compared to the league, that one cannot say whether a draft was better or worse than average.
And, just to really tweak Efrim, I think a guy like Gilmartin (as an example, never seen him pitch) has nearly the same chance to be a Hall of Famer as the No 1 pick. That is how inexact the process.
Not trying to tweak anyone, but agree with your general supposition that judging a draft before three full season has expired is fallacious.
Coach (2011 Fredi G. FAILED)
October 19th, 2011
7:12 pm
I just wanted to thank Frank Wren and the Braves for directly impacting this 2011 World Series.
Without their disastrous trade for Mark Teixeira and franchise worst collapse this year, the Cardinals and Rangers wouldn’t be here. Thanks Braves, great job
RANGERS win, RANGERS win, RANGERS win!!! I can’t believe I’m actually rooting for a DALLAS franchise. And me a die-hard REDSKINS fan. Just say ‘no’ to the COWGIRLS has been my motto since 1960..
October 19th, 2011
5:43 pm
And you do also realize that the one way to remedy his playing time situation is for him to actually hit while he’s in the game? Or he could just change his uniform number to 4-3.
*************************************************************************
GREAT POST, Now outta here to watch the game after takeing Peanut for a walk on a cold night in NC 43*. Have a good one or two tonight y’all.
GO RANGERS
Does anyone like AMC Fearfest? Good stuff. Although they don’t show the scariest of movies because it’s still cable.
I’ve caught a bit of it. Apart from some really good ones, it seems to be more of a gore-fest than a fear fest. Besides they arent showing “Rosemary’s Baby” – epitome of creepiness without the gore.
I’m a big fan of good horror films, but there aren’t many good ones. Recently there just hasn’t been many that I’ve liked. I never really liked the Saw series. I haven’t see the Paranormal Activity movies either.
One baseball insider said he could see Jose Reyes winding up with any of the NL East teams. The Mets are going to give it a try, and while Reyes may be worth more to them than anyone, there’s a question about whether they’ll want to go big at a time when they may be cutting their payroll by as much as $40 million.
Marlins star Hanley Ramirez, the incumbent shortstop in Miami, said he’d move for Reyes. The Phillies don’t have a shortstop as long as star Jimmy Rollins remains unsigned. The Nationals are expected to make another big splash this winter, and the the Braves’ Alex Gonzalez is a free agent.
Has anyone heard any inside speculation about what the Braves will do in RF next year? Just haven’t seen anything much about it. All the numbers say go with Heyward and he’s got the clean bill of health.
Just watched last night’s Sons of Anarchy…not sure which is better, the outstanding story line or the brilliant music they have been using for every episode this season. Just fantastic
3,789 comments Add your comment
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
5:01 pm
RC, I also liked Levi Mitchell a lot.
RC
October 19th, 2011
5:01 pm
If you think people on here “don’t get it” then try to help them “get it”. If they still don’t “get it”, then just move on with your life, man.
Murph, I think he’s got part 1 of that equation down pretty well. It’s part 2 that seems to be a sticking point….
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
5:02 pm
TennesseePaul, plate appearances are what matter, not games played. Players get credit for a game played when they pinch-hit once or when they come in for defense. I want my best possible offensive options to get the most plate appearances, not just more games.
Arkansas Transplant
October 19th, 2011
5:03 pm
What’s funny is that I’ve yet to hear a reasonable answer as to whether the Braves played their best options?
Your answer is “NO”… if they had, they would have played Hinske over Heyward. There’s your answer… quit saying you didn’t get one.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
5:05 pm
Well, that about does it for me. See you all later. Go Texas!
Jake W.
October 19th, 2011
5:06 pm
How much longer can the Cards pen keep it up, I think this is the series when they run out of gas. Their starters have to do better this series for them to win.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
5:07 pm
Arkansas Transplant, yes, if Hinske could play defense, you would certainly be correct.
Arkansas Transplant
October 19th, 2011
5:11 pm
Shaun, are you talking about the zero errors he had to Heyward’s 6?
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:13 pm
David O’Brien
Thanks for the link to the McGwire story as your buddy Goold did a great job reporting on a fellow who was a favorite of mine for a long time, (I will never, ever forget seeing him hit the “H” on the old “Warehouse” sign–high above the left field bleachers–during batting practice at Turner Field during the 2000 season. A buddy, who witnessed the same blast, said, “Yep, believe I could have just gone home after that one and not stayed for the game.”), a player I’ve had mixed emotions about since the Congressional hearings.
I said,” Way to go” when he signed for less to stay with the Cardinals, then donated three million off the top for an abused children’s fund, (sure, I know about the tax deduction possibilities), then watched with admiration as he included the Maris family in the celebrations as he approached and passed the record; all of this after showing the guts to battle back from the scrap heap and those debilitating foot injuries. Now, I suppose I need to take a tack from Dennis Eckersley and applaud one who “fessed up” and had the guts to return to the game he obviously loves.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:15 pm
RC – Maybe. IF Prado were not playing third and IF it was against a RH pitcher, or IF Constanza had not hurt his ankle.
And it wasn’t a matter of getting playing time for one of those other players, but a matter of benching Heywrd because he wasn’t producing.
Shaun – I’m not looking at context? You change the context to suit your purposes. And it doesn’t take context to understand that Upton’s numbers from 07 and 08 were superior to 09-11.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:16 pm
RC – And like Ten Paul said – that came to three games.
tiger297
October 19th, 2011
5:19 pm
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
12:53 pm
Murph, the best way to get me riled up is to post stupid comments.
I finally figured it out…he’s a masochist. It explains so much.
tiger297
October 19th, 2011
5:20 pm
BTW I accidentally read Shaun’s post – the one line post kinda threw me
P-Town Brave ©
October 19th, 2011
5:22 pm
Efrim-
Wait….so Wallace….Rasmus….
So you’re saying that maybe, just maybe, you need to trade talent to get talent…
Oh MY GOD…..what a shocking revelation….
Maybe you should explain that again to some people….
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:26 pm
Lew
Just getting in to say this morning’s news about John was nothing but good and we’ll be looking forward to the early Christmas for your family and a clean report come December.
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:26 pm
“Christmas present”
N8
October 19th, 2011
5:26 pm
“Shaun is arguing that given the choices, Fredo could have played Constanza in LF, Heyward in RF, and benched Prado.”
Except that he couldn’t have replaced Prado, because Prado was needed at 3B. In July and August, Chipper only started 24 games. Prado was needed at 3B. Thus Prado played more than Heyward because he was “useful” at two positions.
Prado was number 2 on the depth chart that goes 2 deep at 3B. Once Chipper couldn’t play, there wasn’t much chance of Prado sitting.
tiger297
October 19th, 2011
5:27 pm
haggard – curious how you get to bring my little one that BP ball now
kidding BTW
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:27 pm
haggard – That’s what we’re hoping. IN the meantime, I pass the time arguing with brick walls and pounding in nails with my forehead.
RC
October 19th, 2011
5:31 pm
Lew,
I wasn’t taking a stance one way or another. I was just trying to point out what Shaun was trying to argue. I’m honestly not sure if he’s right or wrong, but I am sure that it’s pretty immaterial at this point.
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:31 pm
Lew
I do believe we have a whiff of Vermont down here in the Atlanta area with temps dipping down into the 40’s, (the high) for tomorrow and possible frost warnings in the northern suburbs and the mountain counties in North Georgia this weekend.
Also; you can argue with all the brick walls and pound all the nails with your forehead that you want. Just don’t go tripping down those stairs in your Braves attire, with soup on a tray and the dog underfoot !
tiger297
October 19th, 2011
5:32 pm
lew – great news about your boy…sorry I missed it
I end up scrolling quite a bit and miss some of your stuff (trying to stay away from the shaun interactions even 2nd hand)
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
5:32 pm
Murph, let me take your advice…
Heyward had 454 PA. That’s 58 fewer than Chipper, a 39-year-old thirdbaseman who missed time with injury and needed more days off than most to stay fresh at his age. That’s 73 fewer than the starting catcher, who of course needs at least 1-2 days off every week. That’s 136 fewer than the leftfielder who had an OPS+ of 89 compared to Heyward’s 95. That’s 139 fewer than the shortstop who posted and OPS+ of 76.
Now, I understand that Alex Gonzalez had to play because there was no suitable option, particularly not one with his glove. I understand Prado had to play because they needed a backup at third when Chipper was off. But it’s odd to me that Heyward wasn’t somewhere around 5th on the team in PA, ahead of the catcher who needed regular rest because he’s a catcher and ahead of the 39-year-old thirdbaseman who missed time with injuries and had to get regular rest to stay fresh.
Heyward was 9th on the team in OPS+ among players with a minimum of 100 PA, four weren’t true everyday options that should or could have replaced him. Ross was a catcher, Constanza was a 4-A player getting very fortunate on batted balls, Conrad should have only played defense sparingly and Hinske provided much less value than Heyward defensively.
So, among the true, legit everyday player options, Heyward ranked 5th in OPS+. Yet he was 7th on the team in plate appearances. At the very least, he should have been in the Chipper/McCann range, around 515-530 PA and just behind Prado at 590, if we are asserting Prado had to play more because he was the only reliable backup for Chipper.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:35 pm
RC – No problem. You’re right about that – something I’ve tried to tell him over and over – it IS immaterial – It’s over and ain’t going to change.
I also realize that it’s virtually impossible to sway Shaun’s opinion, but it’s a cold, gray, boring day with my wife on a two week business trip and there’s nothing much else to do. Guess I COULD watch Dr. Oz.
full of it
October 19th, 2011
5:37 pm
dob
you catch SOA last night? if so what do you think bout the ending of last nights episode
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:37 pm
haggard – Well, I HAVE learned to hold on to a handrail, but doubt that would help with Shaun. UNless I tore it off of the wall and hit him with it.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
5:38 pm
Arkansas Transplant, it’s easy for a player to not make errors when his team realizes he’s not a great defensive player and therefore is not going to give him a lot of playing time on defense, and when he has no range and not much of an arm so he’s not going to take too many chances trying to throw people out. Not to knock Hinske, but that’s who he is.
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:39 pm
tiger297
I’ve been meaning to catch you on the blog and say “sorry” for not venturing down to say hello during the season.
It was a different summer indeed with so much time spent away from home, (and the blog). Though I’m usually good for between 30 and 40 games a year, most of my attendance is of the walk-up purchase variety and–though I love to get there early and shag those BP balls in left field–that, too, happened very seldom this year as y arrivals were often just minutes before game time. However, I’ll keep that ball for your youngest over the winter and promise to see you in spring, (I even have your seat location taped to the side of the computer screen from when you gave directions to your season ticket location to…….Soph, I believe).
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:39 pm
Shaun – You do realize that a fair amount of the lack of PA for Heyward was the result of him missing 21 games while on the DL?
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:40 pm
Lew
LOL !
tiger297
October 19th, 2011
5:42 pm
Lew – balderdash it was the 10 games he was benched for constanza – entire difference nothing else
and lets not look at his numbers after he was benched (didn’t they increase pretty significantly?) which helped his overall numbers since that won’t help the other argument either
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:42 pm
tiger297
Obviously, I typed before seeing your kind jab @ 5:27.
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
5:42 pm
College CF who hits for power? Yeah, that’s the guy we should have taken…and of course the Rays did.
Not to mention he plays like Eric Byrnes, but actually has better tools/baseball IQ than Byrnes did.
So why didnt we draft him? He got a mere 16K higher bonus than Gilmartin. It wasnt just the money.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:43 pm
And you do also realize that the one way to remedy his playing time situation is for him to actually hit while he’s in the game? Or he could just change his uniform number to 4-3.
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:45 pm
It’s great weather for a couple of servings of that shrimp corn chowder at Taqueria del Sol and I’m going to find them. See you good folks later.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:45 pm
tiger – I pointed out the improvement after he’d sat out the majority of those games and was told by Shaun that there was just no proof of it – even after I posted the before and after stats that pretty well proved it.
haggard
October 19th, 2011
5:47 pm
Lew
As my grandfather used to say: “He’d argue with a sign post!”.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:48 pm
haggard – And consider that he’d won. I think I’ll go watch Dr. Oz.
P-Town Brave ©
October 19th, 2011
5:49 pm
Lew-
Sadly, I enjoyed the 4-3 comment….good stuff there!
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:51 pm
PTown – Yeah, unfortunately it’s all too true.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
6:00 pm
Heyward his .266/.358/.392/.750 after the infamous “benching.” He was used more in a strict platoon at that point. Up to that point he had hit .218/.309/.388/.697.
Heyward spent 63% of his games hitting 5th or lower in the order. Prado spent 92% of his games hitting 4th or higher (actually 3rd or higher as he never hit 4th this season). That disparity in batting order wholly explains the difference in #PA each player had.
Pointing to a statistically insignificant portion of games when Heyward was benched against a RHP while Prado manned LF is a red herring. A false premiss. An Epic Fail.
Alright. I’m outta here. To the bar to watch the game I go!
Go Cards!
Death to the AL!
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
6:01 pm
And it wasn’t a matter of getting playing time for one of those other players, but a matter of benching Heywrd because he wasn’t producing.
Wasn’t producing compared to whom? You can’t just vaguely say “he wasn’t producing.” Playing time should be doled out by which options are the best. This continues to be overlooked. Alex Gonzalez was awful this season because of his horrible offense. But he was the best option so he should have played and did. He wasn’t producing. The fact that he wasn’t producing, alone, doesn’t tell us whether he did or didn’t deserve playing time. That’s more about which players are the best options.
Prado had to play because he was the best option to play left and thirdbase when Chipper was out. He wasn’t producing but that alone didn’t tell us whether he did or didn’t deserve playing time. His playing time was more a result of him being the best option. We can go down the list. Uggla, was far worse in the first half than anyone on the team. But he was the best option.
The same should have applied to Heyward and didn’t. Because the Braves apparently weren’t concerned with whether he was the best option to help them win. They were more concerned with whether he was living up to hype, disappointing, or whatever. At the major league level, an organization’s job is to try to win games. Sitting your best option because he’s not living up to hype or because he’s disappointing doesn’t help you win games. And if it was purely an off-field issue, why bother having him in the majors? If it’s because on the field, he wasn’t living up to the hype, you should realize he’s still your best option and run him out there everyday. Costing him reps doesn’t help with that, especially if the alternatives are inferior players.
The whole thing doesn’t make sense. And it has nothing to do with fandom. I would be just as outraged if I were a fan of some other team. In fact, I know at least one baseball writer who was confused and outraged by the whole thing and he had no interest in the Braves whatsoever.
This is a bigger issue than Heyward for me. This is an issue with how the team evaluates players. Are they too reliant on batting average as a measure of offensive value? Are they more concerned with players living up to standards that marketing departments, fans and prospect lists set or are they more concerned with trying to win baseball games?
If this were about Heyward more than my concern with how the team is evaluating and viewing players, I would be on here making irrational comments about how Heyward is going to bounce back and win the MVP and rah rah Heyward and all sorts of other irrational nonsense.
But this is much more about my concern with the direction of the Braves’ front office. Are they too old-school? Is the manager too old-school? Does he look at evidence and analysis? Does the front office rely on smart people who know how to do objective analysis or are they too reliant on old-school ideas of batting average and other triple crown stats? I have faith in Wren but I’m growing concerned.
tiger297
October 19th, 2011
6:04 pm
haggard – yeah I was worried about you after you dropped out of sight…the plan is to be there next year again…I’m going to be torn there is a chance I have to move for work. I can still buy the tickets and just sell them all I guess
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
6:08 pm
Alright. I’m outta here. To the bar to watch the game I go!
Go Cards!
Death to the AL!
Whaaa….
There are two sides to the Cards winning.
If they win – the Braves’ infamous collapse will be mentioned every time they talk about St.Louis coming from 10.5 GB. We’ll never be allowed to forget.
On the other hand, the Cards will always be termed a team of destiny rolling towards an improbable WS title and we’d be mere collateral damage in their path.
Hard to decide which way I want it. I’ll just try to enjoy a good fight, I guess.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
6:09 pm
This is a bigger issue than Heyward for me. This is an issue with how the team evaluates players
I may not know much, but I know damn well the Braves coaches and front office have a hell of a lot more to go on evaluating the players than you do. Day to day up close observations of how they (players) do what they do, what they do not and why.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
6:11 pm
For one thing ………… blah
McFann O O o
October 19th, 2011
6:15 pm
Snotboogie Hard to decide which way I want it.
I know exactly how I want it…
……
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
6:26 pm
How McFann?
Texas in 4?
Leigh
October 19th, 2011
6:27 pm
To all you guys that are non-stop doubting Heyward I want you to go bang up your shoulder to where it hurts when you swing the bat and tell me it doesn’t effect your swing and your timing. The bottom line is despite Wren and Fredi saying that Heywards shoulder was not a problem, it obvious that it was/is. Read the following excerpt from one of DOB’s blogs a couple weeks ago:
————————————————–
In the final week of the season, Heyward was asked about his offseason plans.
“First, heal,” he said. “Figure out if there’s anything else I can do to get healthy. Then just go to work. I feel like I’ll most definitely put more time in in the cage. Not that I ever slacked off at any point, it’s just that when you have injuries and get away from your confidence level, you’ve got to work twice as hard to get it back. So most definitely do that.
“Other than that, working out and staying in shape has never been a problem. I’ve always had a good work ethic. But as far as the cage goes, just get after it, take my time and pay a lot of attention to detail.”
Heal? Did that mean something still felt wrong with the shoulder?
“I don’t know if it’s back-related, neck-related or whatever,” Heyward said. “I just feel like, get to the bottom of whatever it is. I mean, because I don’t feel like it’s better, as far as 100 percent. It still nags me. I just want to get to the root of the problem. Just take the time, because it’s my career and I owe it to myself to most definitely get that checked. I just want to know, is there anything I can do to feel better?”
—————————————–
Now does that sound like someone who is healthy to you? Come on, he says that the first thing he needs to do is heal and figure out if there is anything he can do to get healthy. Now why would that be his priority if he was healthy and unaffected by his shoulder?
If you remember, when he went on the DL he originally said he wasn’t going to swing a bat until he was pain-free. Thats when Chipper called him out and stated that an unhealthy Heyward in the line-up was better than no Heyward. So he sucked it up(figuratively and literally) and tried to find a way to play in pain and still play good ball. Now that the season is over, Heyward is being candid and admitting that his shoulder is not right; which is why he had an MRI.
Hopefully Heywards shoulder will heal with rest during the offseason and is not something that eventually is going to require surgery. Once he heals, I think you will see the Heyward that we are all expecting.
David O'Brien
October 19th, 2011
6:29 pm
The same should have applied to Heyward and didn’t. Because the Braves apparently weren’t concerned with whether he was the best option to help them win. They were more concerned with whether he was living up to hype, disappointing, or whatever. — Shaun
Utterly absurd. You lose more credibility with each sentence you write about your Heyward obsession.
David O'Brien
October 19th, 2011
6:33 pm
dob
you catch SOA last night? if so what do you think bout the ending of last nights episode
After the first strains of “Strange Fruit” started playing, I knew what was coming. Then he grabbed the chains and … oh, man, that was a riveting couple of minutes of TV, as that series and few others can provide.
I wish they’d have played Billie Holiday’s original version of “Strange Fruit,” but the one they used was still powerful and perfect for that scene (knowing what we’d learned in recent episodes about Juice’s lineage).
Steve from OH
October 19th, 2011
6:35 pm
DOB–man, you’re not even going to make a dent in that guy’s opinion. The dude can’t be reached. Save youself the gray hairs, dude.
And then he goes all religious fanatic about his stats and whatnot and tries to make the rest of us look like the caricature he is. Ugh.
McFann O O o
October 19th, 2011
6:35 pm
Bat M. Texas in 4?
Sounds good.
McFann O O o
October 19th, 2011
6:36 pm
DOB You lose more credibility with each sentence you write about your Heyward obsession.
I hope I’m not that bad about BMac. I think I have been at times, and for that I apologize.
alexcox
October 19th, 2011
6:42 pm
Enter your comments here
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
6:43 pm
None of that, Leigh
Heyward is stubborn
JFP
October 19th, 2011
7:08 pm
DOB, that was a great article about McGwire. About time he got some good p.r. Got to love Shaun’s view of Heyward. He is a passionate fan, ok obsessive. Wait, you already said that.
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:11 pm
FALL BALL
ARIZONA
C CHRISTIAN BETHANCOURT [.379 BA] 1-4, 1 R, 1 SO, 1 SB [3], 1 E [1, throw].
LF TODD CUNNINGHAM [.385 BA] 2-3, 1 R, 1 3B [1], 3 RBI [10], 1 SO.
DOMINICA
LIONS
No report yet. Start time 6;30 p.m. EST
TOROS
No report yet. Start time 6;30 p.m. EST
MEXICO
MAYANS
Start time 9:30 EST
VENEZUELA
Start time 8:30 p.m. EST
alexcox
October 19th, 2011
7:11 pm
EL RETO wren apasado muchas yo como fans e visto y lo qme queda por desir es en casi 10 a|~os no a reoganisado el club y ahora TAREA D CONSEGUIR CHOUCH D BATEO si no invierte no llegaremos a ver otra serie mundial mientras este como GM
Coach (2011 Fredi G. FAILED)
October 19th, 2011
7:12 pm
I just wanted to thank Frank Wren and the Braves for directly impacting this 2011 World Series.
Without their disastrous trade for Mark Teixeira and franchise worst collapse this year, the Cardinals and Rangers wouldn’t be here. Thanks Braves, great job
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
7:15 pm
John Schuerholz gets away with it yet again.
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:16 pm
Bay Area Steve
October 19th, 2011
3:35 pm
Here’s my hope:
That the Braves new draft/international signing approach is the new Moneyball. The rest of the league is doing it one way, and the Braves have found value in the system.
I think accurately predicting an 18-year-old’s ceiling is very, very difficult. I think different scouts think of the same players with a wide range of ceilings. I think, until four or five years have passed after a draft, and a team’s selections are compared to the league, that one cannot say whether a draft was better or worse than average.
And, just to really tweak Efrim, I think a guy like Gilmartin (as an example, never seen him pitch) has nearly the same chance to be a Hall of Famer as the No 1 pick. That is how inexact the process.
Not trying to tweak anyone, but agree with your general supposition that judging a draft before three full season has expired is fallacious.
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:18 pm
Coach (2011 Fredi G. FAILED)
October 19th, 2011
7:12 pm
I just wanted to thank Frank Wren and the Braves for directly impacting this 2011 World Series.
Without their disastrous trade for Mark Teixeira and franchise worst collapse this year, the Cardinals and Rangers wouldn’t be here. Thanks Braves, great job
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
7:15 pm
John Schuerholz gets away with it yet again.
Good point there Snot!
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:21 pm
Go RANGER-BRAVES
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:23 pm
SNOTBOOGIE:
I’ve always felt the TEIXEIRA trade the impetus for JS to be moved upstairs.
Coach (2011 Fredi G. FAILED)
October 19th, 2011
7:23 pm
Sorry Mr. Schuerholz, you were great too……
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:24 pm
“We had a [blog] waiting” – STRIPES
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
7:27 pm
I’ve always felt the TEIXEIRA trade the impetus for JS to be moved upstairs.
Could be, richbrave. Or probably it was a desperate attempt to leave on a high. Backfired.
Sorry Mr. Schuerholz, you were great too……
Now all you have to do is walk back the claim that Wren was the reason for the Sep collapse. Your remaining points are all fine.
Oh…. oops.
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:28 pm
tiger297:
Wasn’t HEYWARD benched due to poor play? And didn’t CONSTANZA originally come out afterward due to a high ankle sprain?
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:33 pm
RANGERS win, RANGERS win, RANGERS win!!! I can’t believe I’m actually rooting for a DALLAS franchise. And me a die-hard REDSKINS fan. Just say ‘no’ to the COWGIRLS has been my motto since 1960..
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
7:34 pm
Coach (2011 Fredi G. FAILED)
October 19th, 2011
7:35 pm
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
7:27 pm
Now all you have to do is walk back the claim that Wren was the reason for the Sep collapse. Your remaining points are all fine.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
Then Wren obviously had nothing to do with the 2010 playoff Braves.
Your turn……oops.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
7:43 pm
Wren’s just a big ol’ meanie
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
7:59 pm
Every game is crucial. Carpenter isn’t dominant, imo. Not looking at the stats, I think of him as a tad bit better than Tim Hudson.
Rangers in six!
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
8:05 pm
Does anyone like AMC Fearfest? Good stuff. Although they don’t show the scariest of movies because it’s still cable.
Coach (2011 Fredi G. FAILED)
October 19th, 2011
8:06 pm
Go Braves……..er Rangers
George
October 19th, 2011
8:06 pm
Lew
October 19th, 2011
5:43 pm
And you do also realize that the one way to remedy his playing time situation is for him to actually hit while he’s in the game? Or he could just change his uniform number to 4-3.
*************************************************************************
GREAT POST, Now outta here to watch the game after takeing Peanut for a walk on a cold night in NC 43*. Have a good one or two tonight y’all.
GO RANGERS
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
8:08 pm
BALLGAME!!
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
8:09 pm
Ron Washington, ladies and gentleman. If there is a concern for Texas, it’s him.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
8:11 pm
Nevermind …………. Un-Ballgame
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
8:19 pm
Does anyone like AMC Fearfest? Good stuff. Although they don’t show the scariest of movies because it’s still cable.
I’ve caught a bit of it. Apart from some really good ones, it seems to be more of a gore-fest than a fear fest. Besides they arent showing “Rosemary’s Baby” – epitome of creepiness without the gore.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
8:33 pm
I’m a big fan of good horror films, but there aren’t many good ones. Recently there just hasn’t been many that I’ve liked. I never really liked the Saw series. I haven’t see the Paranormal Activity movies either.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
8:42 pm
One baseball insider said he could see Jose Reyes winding up with any of the NL East teams. The Mets are going to give it a try, and while Reyes may be worth more to them than anyone, there’s a question about whether they’ll want to go big at a time when they may be cutting their payroll by as much as $40 million.
Marlins star Hanley Ramirez, the incumbent shortstop in Miami, said he’d move for Reyes. The Phillies don’t have a shortstop as long as star Jimmy Rollins remains unsigned. The Nationals are expected to make another big splash this winter, and the the Braves’ Alex Gonzalez is a free agent.
Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/jon_heyman/10/19/world.series.questions/index.html#ixzz1bHJ8LaoS
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
8:44 pm
This game would be more interesting if it started snowing
keylargo
October 19th, 2011
8:48 pm
Has anyone heard any inside speculation about what the Braves will do in RF next year? Just haven’t seen anything much about it. All the numbers say go with Heyward and he’s got the clean bill of health.
cabravesfan
October 19th, 2011
8:51 pm
Just watched last night’s Sons of Anarchy…not sure which is better, the outstanding story line or the brilliant music they have been using for every episode this season. Just fantastic
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
8:52 pm
Heyward will play right next year and bat second
keylargo
October 19th, 2011
8:55 pm
First, second or third Bat. He’s so awesome that he can handle any position in the order.
Steve from OH
October 19th, 2011
8:56 pm
First, second or third Bat. He’s so awesome that he can handle any position in the order.
Preach it, brother!
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
9:02 pm
Chipper has veto power over the third spot. its in his contract
E. ANDRUS AND R. FURCAL
October 19th, 2011
9:06 pm
BRAVES FANS DO YOU MISS US, LOL HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
9:09 pm
No we don’t ………….. Please use your inside voice
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
9:10 pm
Wait, why would we have Andrus and Furcal?
E. ANDRUS AND R. FURCAL
October 19th, 2011
9:11 pm
SURE YOU DONT. LIKE ALL ATLANTA FANS BITTER AND LIVING IN DENIAL
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
9:12 pm
And why are they sharing a laptop?
And why are they shouting??
E. ANDRUS AND R. FURCAL
October 19th, 2011
9:16 pm
BAT Masterson, SHUT UP, JEFFREY, we do miss them and we are bitter, lets not live in denial, you are so stupid!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
cabravesfan
October 19th, 2011
9:17 pm
I am neither bitter or living in denial.
cabravesfan
October 19th, 2011
9:18 pm
Wait, did “they” just forget to change their screen name?
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
9:19 pm
i am !!!!!!!!!!!!
McFann O O o
October 19th, 2011
9:19 pm
Ad why aren’t they playing…?