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3,788 comments Add your comment
Murph
October 19th, 2011
10:57 am
The cliff notes version of Shaun’s post, for those of you who have better things to do:
Heyward was valuable to the team because he took walks.
There should be a value stat that awards positive points for doing good things like getting on base, but takes away points for doing things like grounding into double plays or popping out to 2B with men in scoring position.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
10:57 am
We can discuss whether Heyward’s benching hindered his development. But that’s a completely separate topic. _ Shaun
One might also take the position that the time out of the line up helped Heyward. There was some reporting at the time that it allowed him more time to work in the cage on adjustments he was trying to make. Perhaps that lead to him finishing the season on a high note.
Jeff R
October 19th, 2011
10:59 am
I think Shaun (aka Statman) just wrote the longest paragraph in DOB’s blog’s history. But do note the trademark insult in the rambling sentence offered by Senor Shaun:
“Many just didn’t and still don’t understand why people like myself and some bloggers argued that he was being benched too often. If you think it had something to do with us denying that he performed poorly, denying that he was disappointing this season, with us being Heyward fans or against any other player, thinking the Braves were hindering his development, you were or are either ignorant about the game (not realizing that Heyward was indeed the best outfield option against right-handed pitching), have your own biases regarding Heyward”… (snip)
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
11:00 am
FALL BALL
ARIZONA
1B TERDO [.464 BA] 2-3, 1 R, 1 BB.
BILLY BULLOCK [BS 1, 1-0, 13.50 ERA] 1.0 IP, 2 H, 1 HR, 2 R/ER, 0 BB, 2 SO, 5 BF…20 p/ 12 S, 0 GO/ 0 AO. BB’s throwin’ anything but, and keeps gettin’ blowed up in relief, yet he gets the win.
J.J. HOOVER [SV 1, 5.79 ERA] 1.0 IP, blanks. 3 BF…18 p/ 12 S, 1 GO/ 2 AO. Has a solid close.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
11:00 am
Lew, I’ll comment to Shaun for you sir.
Shaun, Jason hits, he plays. He doesn’t, he sits on the pine just like any player would. Only he doesn’t hit this time I bet he is back in AAA. Why write a novel about it? It is only baseball, a pretty damn simple concept in my book.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:03 am
I do like how Shaun has gone from “Heyward was the best outfield option” to “Heyward was the best option against RHP”.
Give him another week and it’ll be “Heyward was the best RF option in the 6th inning with no outs and nobody on in a game which the Braves led by 7 runs against a LHP with an ERA above 5.00″.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
11:03 am
Jason probably got rushed to the bigs. Injuries have sped up his slump. God, why is this so interesting anyways? He is 22. Long way to go for the guy, he’ll be fine.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:07 am
The Terd seems to be ripping it up in AZ… richbrave, any idea what position he’s playing most often there?
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
11:07 am
Can’t wait until the damn rumors start up. Stupid world series needs to hurry and get over with! I honestly dont care who wins the thing. I guess if I had to choose I’ll go with the Cardinals, but whatever.
I am interested to see if Hinske is brought back. I doubt it because he really slumped.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
11:09 am
Murph, what does that mean, that he was or wasn’t valuable to the team? Valuable compared to whom? The question is was he the best option to play against right-handed pitching. I’m not sure why it’s so hard to focus on what is relevant in the discussion of his playing time. I realize it’s more dramatic and maybe more fun to discuss whether he lived up to hype and all that. But the only question that matters in terms of his playing time is was he the best option?
Also, last I checked OBP and other stats built on OBP, among others, takes into account groundouts and popping out to second.
Also, are you asserting taking walks provides no value? Kind of an odd argument that probably shouldn’t be taken seriously.
Arkansas Transplant
October 19th, 2011
11:10 am
Shaun has gone from “Heyward was the best outfield option” to “Heyward was the best option against RHP”.
I was kinda amused by that myself and wondering if anyone else caught that.
BravesFanSince80's
October 19th, 2011
11:10 am
Shaun: I must be an idiot, because I do not understand how you can split such fine hairs on this topic. If Jason Heyward struggled for most of the season, despite somehow magically being our “best OF option against RH pitching”, then what exactly are you trying to say. Believe me, after reading the ridiculously long discourse on the subject written by you, the answer to that is no more clear than before I read it. The plain and simple truth is that as the season wore on, it became more and more clear that Heyward would need a ton of work in an off-season to get back on track and sending him out night after night to fail miserably at his age and progression up to that point was not in his or the team’s best interest. Once again, what exactly are you arguing? Send him out there every day even if he hits .150 all year?
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
11:12 am
There was some reporting at the time that it allowed him more time to work in the cage on adjustments he was trying to make
Or it probably gave him more time to drink beer and eat chicken, which according to Shaun is fine and doesn’t have a negative effect.
Arkansas Transplant
October 19th, 2011
11:14 am
Shaun, actually the best option against RHP would have been to play Hinske. If we’re going to kick around a fantasy.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
11:14 am
jeffrey_
I think chicken and beer during the game is reserved for pitchers on their days off because they could not possibly be needed in any game situation.
RC
October 19th, 2011
11:14 am
They weren’t drinking beer, they were drinking Bud Light. There is a difference.
DS1
October 19th, 2011
11:15 am
That does it!!! I am no longer eating chicken and drinking beer in the clubhouse from this time forward! I swear an oath.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
11:15 am
Good point, RC
Arkansas Transplant
October 19th, 2011
11:16 am
I think things would have been different for Heyward if only he would have eaten chicken and drank beer between innings.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
11:17 am
Murph, well, on the season he was clearly the most valuable outfielder and clearly should have been playing virtually every day he was on the roster when the team was facing a right-handed pitcher. He was the most valuable outfielder because there are more right-handed pitchers than left-handed pitchers. And benching him against left-handed pitching was acceptable. Benching him as often as they did against right-handed pitching was not.
Now, we can talk about fandom of Heyward or other players, whether benching helped or hurt his development, whether he was disappointing, whether he performed poorly. But the only question that matters with concern to playing time is was he the best option in the outfield on any given day? Certainly he was against right-handed pitching, no question about it. Of course that doesn’t sell papers or internet clicks so the media isn’t going to ask that question. They are going to focus on the more dramatic and less important aspects of all this, which are whether Heyward is living up to his hype and other irrelevant topics that have little to do with whether he’s the best option on any given day to be playing rightfield for the Braves and will stir up more drama and more readership and more hits.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
11:17 am
It’s a known fact that fried chicken and beer is good for shoulder problems.
DS1
October 19th, 2011
11:17 am
What Heyward truly needed was to sacrifice a live chicken in the clubhouse to release the spell on his bat.
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
11:18 am
They weren’t drinking beer, they were drinking Bud Light. There is a difference.
I’m relatively new to beer drinking (a year or two). At first I’d just get Bud Light because I thought “well they have good commercials.” Then I noticed my friends getting Yeungling, and I drank that mostly. After a couple months, I was at a place where all they had was Bud Light and I had it again….you could noticably taste the difference. I didn’t like it at all.
Now I like Blue Moon
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:19 am
The question is was he the best option to play against right-handed pitching.
Can you quote who wrote that question and when? I didn’t see that question asked, but then again, I’m on here for fun and have a much more casual attitude about everything than you. I’m sure it’s in your notes.
Shaun, do you think a pop out to 2nd with men in scoring position is worse than a pop out to 2nd with nobody on base? Or do you feel that they are equal?
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
11:19 am
Arkansas Transplant, if Hinske added even close to the same defensive value, you’d have a point.
BravesFanSince80's
October 19th, 2011
11:20 am
there were extended periods of time during this past season where Jason Heyward wouldn’t have been the best OF option at Gwinnett….
DS1
October 19th, 2011
11:20 am
For anybody that has had shoulder problems, they know that tendonitis in the shoulder can cause all sorts of issues.
I’m cutting the kid some slack until next spring. He’s practically a baby! 22 I think? I’ll throw in the towel in 2-3 years if he isn’t any better.
Arkansas Transplant
October 19th, 2011
11:21 am
Shaun, your right… Heyward’s many air balls to the infield and poor routes to the ball was clearly enough evidence to prove he was our best outfield option… no wait.. best 2nd hole hitter.. no wait, best walker… no wait, best best.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
11:22 am
And benching him against left-handed pitching was acceptable. Benching him as often as they did against right-handed pitching was not.
What if it benefited Jason and the team long term to do it?
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:22 am
jeffrey, have you had a Guiness? I, for whatever reason, had never had Guiness before last year, and now it’s my beer of choice.
I drank Moosehead and Coors Light in my teen years, switched over to Steinlager in my college years, pretty much gave up drinking beer from 25-35… and then I had my first Guiness. Yum yum yum.
BravesFanSince80's
October 19th, 2011
11:23 am
he’s on a very short “mysterious” injury leash for me, if he comes out in spring training complaining about a hang nail or something, he’s done for me
flange1
October 19th, 2011
11:23 am
Shaun,
If I am reading correctly the main point you are trying to make is that Ironhead should be playing everyday against right handed pitching since he is the “best option.” Is that correct?
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
11:23 am
FALL BALL INTERNATIONAL
DOMINICA
ESCOGIDO LIONS
PH/2B WILKIN CASTILLO [.167 BA] 0-1.
SS DIORY HERNANDEZ [.300 BA] 1-4.
EASTERN BULLS
1B ‘45′ GOMEZ [ .100 BA] 0-3, 1 SO.
LF WILKIN RAMIREZ [.286 BA] 2-5, 2 R, 1 SO.
LHRP JOSE LUGO [H 1, 0.00 ERA] 0.1 IP, 1 H, blanks, 2 BF, 0 GO/ 1 AO.
RHRP JAIRO ASENCIO [0.00 ERA] 1.0 IP, 1 H, 1 SO, 4 BF, 1 GO/ 0 AO.
MEXICO
NAVOJOA MAYANS
No BRAVES played.
VENEZUELA
CARACAS LIONS
No game
ZULIA AGUILAS
1B ERNESTO MEJIA [.286 BA] 0-4, 2 SO.
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
11:26 am
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:07 am
The Terd seems to be ripping it up in AZ… richbrave, any idea what position he’s playing most often there?
3B.
David O'Brien
October 19th, 2011
11:27 am
Jeff R, regarding your Shaun comment at 10:59: I don’t mean this in an insulting way, but he’s a major fanboy of Heyward’s. Nothing wrong with that. But it clouds judgment when making arguments and/or constantly defending one’s views.
David O'Brien
October 19th, 2011
11:28 am
Patrick: Yes, Braves would’ve won the additional wild-card slot and made this year’s postseason under the proposed new format.
David O'Brien
October 19th, 2011
11:36 am
Speaking of good hitting coaches, here’s a fine story by my buddy Derrick Goold from today’s St. Louis Post-Dispatch:
http://www.stltoday.com/sports/baseball/professional/article_562cb69b-1a0f-55ac-a1d8-ec109540ed4f.html
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:37 am
Want to hear something ironic? Heyward actually did his best hitting of the season with 2 out and men in scoring position… he hit .294 in that situation. All other situations are bad, but he was way more clutch that I would have suspected.
He produced poorly in close games, when the team was behind, etc. But when the Braves had a lead greater than 4 runs and he came up with RISP and 2 outs… money.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
11:38 am
rich, how’s the Terd’s defense been?
richbrave
October 19th, 2011
12:07 pm
Murph:
No E’s noted in smalll sample size.
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
12:10 pm
jeffrey, have you had a Guiness? I, for whatever reason, had never had Guiness before last year, and now it’s my beer of choice.
I really don’t like dark beer.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
12:19 pm
You gotta try a Guiness… it’s the chocolate milk of beers.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:24 pm
I hope Kim Ng gets the GM job for LAA. I think it’d be pretty cool to have a woman as a GM and from all I’ve read, she knows her stuff. Moreno seems like a good owner and would give the job to the most deserving candidate, regardless of gender or ethnic background.
David O'Brien
October 19th, 2011
12:24 pm
From the Bill Chuck Files:
Michael Young hit only 11 homers but he drove home 106 runs. Among batters with 11 or less homers, the next most RBI came from Juan Rivera , who hit 11 and drove home 74.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
12:28 pm
DOB, where is your evidence that I’m a “fanboy,” whatever that means?
I just want the Atlanta Braves to play their best options and give themselves the best chance to win. I’m a “fanboy” or just a fan of the Atlanta Braves.
Again, the refutation of those that think Heyward was benched too often are all about whether someone is a “fanboy,” whether Heyward lived up to the hype, whether he was a particularly good player. As fascinating as some may think these topics are, the only thing that mattered to most of us who thought Heyward was benched too often was whether he was the best option on any given day, because our loyalty is to the Braves or either to seeing any given team play their best options.
I was just as adamant about the Braves putting Schafer leadoff. But it’s funny how no one accused me of anti-Schafer bias or being a “fanboy” of McLouth of whomever else. And I didn’t have to defend this as much because people were much more reasonable about Schafer hitting leadoff and there weren’t many who had the misguided view that Schafer should bat leadoff. People can’t be objective about Heyward. He should have been benched, even against right-handed pitching and the rationale it seems is because of “fanboys,” because he didn’t live up to hype and because of batting average and batting average alone. All that is actually meaningless.
The only meaningful question–which gets brushed aside because many of you can’t answer it in a reasonable fashion and don’t have anywhere else to go with it besides calling people “fanboys” and talking about hype and disappointment–with regard to Heyward’s playing time this season is was he the best option in right on any given day. The answer is clearly yes against right-handed pitching, if you are just looking at thing from an objective perspective and not viewing the question from the lens of whether people are “fanboys” or from purely whether Heyward is living up to hype or is having a particularly good season.
It’s pretty simple: On any given day, was he the best option? Until you can answer that without using the word “fanboy” or hype or disappointment or poor performance, you aren’t answering questions about his playing time in any sort of reasonable and meaningful way.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
12:28 pm
Yep. McGwire is a solid hitting coach. I remember reading about him before he took the position. He always advocates balance in the swing. Which I see many hitters incapable of doing. AJ seemed to never have balance towards the end. Would absolutely love it if the Braves could find a coach similar to McGwire.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:28 pm
A shame Young fell off defensively. Really good hitter.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
12:30 pm
where is your evidence that I’m a “fanboy,” whatever that means
I’m not DOB, but I’d like to step in and offer up the entire 2011 preseason and season MIB/DOB blog comments section as exhibit A.
Snotboogie
October 19th, 2011
12:31 pm
DOB, where is your evidence that I’m a “fanboy,” whatever that means?
DOB, once you are done with that, could you provide evidence of gravity also?
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:31 pm
Young with a career .304/.350/.451 line. Solid. Makes me think of Martin – just a solid hitter.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:35 pm
where is your evidence that I’m a “fanboy,” whatever that means?
Just admit to it. I sure as hell am. Although it’s not as crucial, speaking from a Niners fan point of view, when you invest a ton into a certain young player, and that young player fails, it can set your organization back. Happens all the time in Football. Now, clearly the QB in Football is far more important than a RF on a Baseball team. But I root harder for those prospects because they were home grown and I’ve usually invested my own time in following them through the minors and into the majors. Therefore, I feel a greater sense of happiness when the Braves win and Heyward did good things to help our team win.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
12:36 pm
Heyward was the best option against RHP when he was batting in the 8th spot in the order, the team had a lead greater than 4 runs, and there were men in scoring position with 2 outs… that I’ll concede to you, Shaun.
Otherwise… not so much.
George
October 19th, 2011
12:40 pm
Good afternoon y’ll
I am going to do a rant today, just because I have nothing better to write.
Why do the RANGERS deserve NOT to have the extra home game in the WS? Only because the entire AL lost the ALL STAR GAME. Baseball should go back to alternateing the extra home game each year, or give the extra home game to the team with the best won lost recoed like the NBA does. That would be more fair than haveing the ALL STAR GAME deside it.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
12:44 pm
Don’t know how many times I’ve asked it. It’s the most important question with regard to Heyward’s playing time and benchings. Was Heyward the best option to play rightfield on any given day? People will just refuse to answer because that question doesn’t give them the opportunity to criticize me or other whom they view as “fanboys,” and doesn’t give them the chance to talk about how disappointing Heyward has been. We get it. We’re all “fanboys” and Heyward was disappointing and should be sent to Danville. Unfortunately that response doesn’t really answer the relevant question of whether the Braves went with they benched their best options a little too often. Hey, let’s attack anyone we view as “fanboys” and let’s argue a point that no one is refuting about a player performing poorly. That’s much easier and requires much less thought than addressing the single most important question with regard to a player’s playing time.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
12:45 pm
The answer is clearly yes against right-handed pitching
If one ignores the following (against right-handed pitching):
_______Rof_Rtot/yr__AVG__OBP__SLG__OPS
Heyward -2 .....15 .240 .336 .418 .754
Hinske_ -1 .....19 .252 .333 .421 .754
Because that would make it less clear. However, it would fall in line with previous arguments that, while Heyward had an atrocious, forgetable season, it was arguably as good as, or ever-so-slightly-better than, a converted infielder/utility player playing a new position having a down year, and now a journey man utility player’s platoon split on the back end of his career.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
12:45 pm
Agreed George. The All Star Game is played by a lot of players who really, when it comes down to it, don’t have a whole lot of skin in the game. A lot of teams are out of contention by the break, so why should players representing those teams care if they get home field or not?
Maybe it motivates the Yankees, Phillies, and Red Sox of the world, but does the one player from San Diego really care? Probably not too much.
That’s the one thing the league should take from the NBA… best record gets home field advantage. Give the teams who wrap up post season spots in August a reason to play hard at the end of September.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:45 pm
Jessica Alba and Blake Lively. Big fan of Alba, and Blake Lively is a close 2nd.
And for an update: No, Jessica hasn’t called me yet.
Brave New World
October 19th, 2011
12:46 pm
I’m tired of all the geniuses on the Brave blogs that want to trade or demote Jason Heyward. I don’t care if you played baseball when you were younger or are playing baseball because you are young – NONE OF YOU have the talent that Jason Heyward possesses. I would have more respect for J-Hey detractors if they simply said “I’m jealous of Heyward and I want him to fail because it makes me somehow feel better about myself.” I can’t imagine that any Braves’ fan would want anything other than Heyward doing well so he can help the team win. This guy will be a star either with the Braves or some other team. GO J-HEY! GO BRAVES!
Murph
October 19th, 2011
12:47 pm
Shaun, how many games was Heyward benched for out of the 162 played this season?
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
12:48 pm
Young with a career .304/.350/.451 line. Solid. Makes me think of Martin – just a solid hitter.
Yes. Solid line. A bit over paid. But a solid line.
Murph
October 19th, 2011
12:49 pm
BNW, I don’t think a single person on here wants Heyward to fail. Most just like arguing with Shaun and, the best way to get him really riled up is to say something about JHey.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
12:50 pm
Jessica and Blake are a bit too young for me. But Maggie Lawson peaks the interest.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
12:52 pm
TennesseePaul, as I said to Arkansas Transplant, that would be a good point if Hinske provided close to the same defensive player.
P-Town Brave ©
October 19th, 2011
12:53 pm
DOB-
Be careful talking about Young and his lack of power while driving in runs….Shaun will first piss all over the lack of power and then he will piss all over RBI saying theyre not important….
That said, I finally am getting a chance to listen to you on the Atlanta Baseball Talk show….
I have a feeling you may not be asked back because you basically kicked Steve in the gut with your comments on Heyward…
But me….you absolutely made my day! Best listen on a Braves podcast in the ENTIRE year!
So for that, I thank you.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
12:53 pm
Murph, the best way to get me riled up is to post stupid comments.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:53 pm
TenneseePaul, it’s a shame he gets a bum rap because of the salary. He’s still a solid hitter. I used to think Vernon Wells was a solid baseball player that just made far too much money. I have sinced changed my feelings on him.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
12:55 pm
Shaun, Heyward is the definition of FAIL! Shouldn’t have even played him as much as they di to be perfectly frank with you. I don’t know why you refuse to see that benching Heyward was not only the best interest of the team, but for Jason himself. I’d start him at AAA. No sense having him strap up a major league uni if all he is good for is riding the pine.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:55 pm
But me….you absolutely made my day! Best listen on a Braves podcast in the ENTIRE year!
It was an excellent 30-40 minutes and should be listened to by every Braves fan.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
12:55 pm
TnBrian – I like it. Kind of what I’ve been saying to him, but in Reader’s Digest Condensed form.
DAP
October 19th, 2011
12:55 pm
im looking forward to seeing heyward rebound, winning the job in spring training and having a great year. 2011 doesnt matter much anymore.
CB
October 19th, 2011
12:56 pm
Efrim, I think I would have traded a chance to meet Bill James for a chance to meet Jessica Alba. LOL
sri
October 19th, 2011
12:56 pm
Shaun, could you please share your thoughts on Bat’s question at 11:22 am?
DAP
October 19th, 2011
12:58 pm
shaun, all the guys that heyward was better than had to play a little in order for you to know that.
it obvious that heyward was bad enough to give some other guys ABs and see how they did. in all, heyward didnt spend all that much time on the bench, so i dont understand why you are obsessing about it.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
12:58 pm
Shaun – He was playing virtually every day he was not on the DL. Dude sat for a total of 13 games during his period of major suckitude.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
12:59 pm
I think I would have traded a chance to meet Bill James for a chance to meet Jessica Alba. LOL
Hmmm. Yeah, Alba for me too.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
1:00 pm
Well, RBI’s and power are extremely important, P-Town. Only a fool would believe otherwise. Those are two aspects Jason Heyward pretty much lacked this season which is why he sat next to Hinske and Corad, the bench guys, most of the time. Wish he’d have sat more.
You know, I will protest if Jason is NOT in AAA or on the bench to start 2012! I’ve had enough!
George
October 19th, 2011
1:01 pm
Brave New World
October 19th, 2011
12:46 pm
I’m tired of all the geniuses on the Brave blogs that want to trade or demote Jason Heyward. I don’t care if you played baseball when you were younger or are playing baseball because you are young – NONE OF YOU have the talent that Jason Heyward possesses. I would have more respect for J-Hey detractors if they simply said “I’m jealous of Heyward and I want him to fail because it makes me somehow feel better about myself.” I can’t imagine that any Braves’ fan would want anything other than Heyward doing well so he can help the team win. This guy will be a star either with the Braves or some other team. GO J-HEY! GO BRAVES!
******************************************************************************
BNW
I write posts critical about JASON not because I want him to fail, I want him to do well because I am a BRAVES fan. JASON is a good enough player to have a long career in the major leagues, all I am saying is I do NOT believe he will ever be a STAR or GREAT player.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
1:02 pm
Lew
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
1:06 pm
P-Town and TnBrian, yes, only a fool would not realize RBI are important. Also, only a fool would believe that RBI that do not come as a result of a player driving himself in are truly a telling individual stat.
Michael Young’s RBI total tells us very little about the remarkable season he had. Ryan Howard had a higher RBI total but he was vastly inferior to Michael Young in 2011. To understand this, you have to understand that offense is about outs, bases and context–i.e., things like positional scarcity.
Juan
October 19th, 2011
1:10 pm
Any news who won the Clemente Award?…is Huddy won?….
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
1:10 pm
Lew, 13 games missed for your best outfield, while still on the active roster, is too many unless there was a left-hander on the mound for all of those 13 games. Plus I would assume games that he didn’t start against right-handed pitching but came in as a pinch-hitter don’t count as missed games.
The question is how many games did the Braves not start him, while on the active roster, with a right-handed pitcher on the mound? Heyward should have led Braves outfielder in plate appearances and innings, unless they somehow faced an unusually high number of lefties.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
1:10 pm
Shaun, do you ever get tired of repeating the same stuff over and over? Not trying to be a jerk, but I’ve been on this blog since the Winter of 2006/2007 and all you’ve ever done is beat the same old drum. Perhaps that’s all you want out of this blog.
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
1:12 pm
TnBrian, how is benching your best available options more often that you should what’s best for the team and a player?
Oh, yeah, we think that avoiding your closer in the 9th inning or later in a tied game on the road is also what’s best for the team and the player. Why am I surprised by the views expressed here about how often the best outfielder on the team was benched?
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
1:12 pm
JT (Charlotte, NC): As a Braves fan I was really disappointed with their draft this year. The Braves system desperately needed an infusion of position players. Miraculously Mikie Mahtook fell to them at the bottom of the 1st round yet they failed to take him – instead opting for yet another starting pitcher, the very last thing they needed. Any insight on this exasperating decision.
Jim Callis: The Braves were extremely conservative in the draft, taking relatively easy signs who stood out more for their floors than their ceilings. That’s not how Atlanta built its string of winners, and it’s not a strategy conducive to long-term success.
Bat Masterson
October 19th, 2011
1:15 pm
Shaun, could you please share your thoughts on Bat’s question at 11:22 am? _ sri
Yeah, sri, that’s not gonna happen.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
1:15 pm
Shaun, I disagree. Tell me context this time how in the sam hell you really believe RBI’s and power are NOT all that important. Lay. It. Out. Give it to us because that is absurd!
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
1:16 pm
Baseball should go back to alternateing the extra home game each year, or give the extra home game to the team with the best won lost recoed like the NBA does. That would be more fair than haveing the ALL STAR GAME deside it.
How is alternating any more fair than having the ASG determine home field?
George
October 19th, 2011
1:16 pm
Outta here for now. Have a good afternoon y’ll.
GO GET EM RANGERS
George
October 19th, 2011
1:19 pm
jeffery 1:16
I would prefer team with best record get the extra game, but if not then alternate.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
1:21 pm
Shaun, maybe because more often than not Jason would weakly ground out to 2nd in one of his famous “pull the outside pitch” at bats.
Lew
October 19th, 2011
1:24 pm
I’m not one who advocates Heyward being traded or sent to AAA to start the season. I think he’ll be a good, solid player – eventually.
But let’s look at why he saw bench time in 2011.
When he returned from the DL on June 15, his line was .211, .317, .401 – poor by anyone sane’s standards. He played all but two games for the Braves from June 15 until the benching began on August 11 – at which time his line was .218, .313, .396 – still quite poor by any sane person’s standards.
He then sat out three games on Aug. 12, 13 and 20 and on August 22, he had slipped to .218, .309, .388 – still extremely poor.
From then on he was benched three times (plus the long weekend during the hurricane) and played in all except two games from there to the end where he improved and brought his numbers up to .227, .319, .389 – still really pretty poor.
So, in essence, a player hitting as low as ..218, .309, .388 was benched for a total of 13 games. Imagine that.
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
1:24 pm
In Shaun’s defense – he is obviously a big Braves fan who comes on here daily discussing nothing but his team most of the time. I as a big Braves fan can respect that.
Efrim
October 19th, 2011
1:25 pm
I’m going to post it again, as this exchange between the fan and Jim Callis(Baseball America Senior Editor) really sums it up quite nicely:
JT (Charlotte, NC): As a Braves fan I was really disappointed with their draft this year. The Braves system desperately needed an infusion of position players. Miraculously Mikie Mahtook fell to them at the bottom of the 1st round yet they failed to take him – instead opting for yet another starting pitcher, the very last thing they needed. Any insight on this exasperating decision.
Jim Callis: The Braves were extremely conservative in the draft, taking relatively easy signs who stood out more for their floors than their ceilings. That’s not how Atlanta built its string of winners, and it’s not a strategy conducive to long-term success.
jeffrey d
October 19th, 2011
1:26 pm
Remember early last season when everybody was torching Fredi for not batting Heyward higher?
TnBrian
October 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
Lew, I dont either. I was agitating Shaun there. Jason has a world of talent and I bet will be given every chance to prove why he was the top prospect in baseball coming up.
George
October 19th, 2011
1:27 pm
Good 1:24 post LEW
flange1
October 19th, 2011
1:29 pm
Efrim,
I hope if you beat that drum load enough someone on Henry Aaron Blvd will hear you!
Shaun
October 19th, 2011
1:29 pm
TnBrian, RBI are important. I’m not denying that. RBI are just a team stat. Offense is interactive. The only thing a hitter has some sort of control over is whether he is doing things to avoid outs, get on base and slug. He can’t control how many runners will be on base when he comes to the plate or whether a pitcher is going to give him pitches to hit with runners on base. Therefore looking at an individual player’s RBI total tells us little or nothing about the individual player. If a player has a high RBI total, he may be a great hitter or he may be an inferior hitter to others but just got more RBI opportunities thanks to teammates and pitchers giving him more pitches to hit than other players.
It’s all about giving a hitter complete credit for RBI and thinking that tells us something about the individual hitter. This is essentially the same as giving a pitcher credit for a win and thinking that tells us something about the pitcher. We need to look at thing beyond that to tell us what the hitter did more independently of his teammates and opportunity. We need to look at things like how often he got on base, what he slugged, what position he played, what types of ballparks he played most of his games in. This will tell us how good or bad a player was. His RBI total tells us nothing other than possibly how many RBI opportunities he received. It tells us nothing about how good he was as a hitter and how good he was at doing the things that increased the chances that he helped his team score runs.
The example I go back to is Jose Bautista. He did more than any player to increase his team’s chances to score runs. Yet, his RBI total wasn’t what we would think of as remarkably impressive. But he didn’t have the opportunities that inferior hitters had because of teammates and pitchers not wanting to give him anything to hit.
Look at Ryan Howard. Really high RBI total. Second among firstbasemen. Yet, Michael Morse was a more productive offensive player. Freddie Freeman was pretty close to Ryan Howard with regards to what he did to increase his teams chances to score runs. You couldn’t tell this if you put too much weight into RBI total.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
1:33 pm
that would be a good point if Hinske provided close to the same defensive player.
Given that you are discussing 5 games in 2011 for which Heyward was benched against a RHP, it is statistically irrelevant and thus, not a “clear” cut choice.
TennesseePaul
October 19th, 2011
1:34 pm
You do realize that right? That you are “debating” the line up of 5 games in a 162 game season in favor of the worst right fielder in the league.