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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
1,264 comments Add your comment
RC
August 29th, 2011
5:25 pm
TennesseePaul, it’s pretty difficult to come to the conclusion that Prado has been a lot better at the plate than Heyward this season, if you are aware of everything beyond batting average. – Shaun
I will agree with you that they have been very similar statistically up to this point in the season. However, when I watch them play, it does seem that the way Prado goes about his at-bats in recent weeks is a much better approach than Heyward has been doing over the same short-time period. Prado doesn’t appear to be fooled as often, and is able to make adjustments during an at-bat. Heyward does not possess that ability at the present time.
It is worth mentioning that there was a point in the season during which Prado looked lost as well, and it’s only been very recently that he seems to have a better idea of what he’s doing at the plate. Heyward has shown flashes of regaining that confidence he needs, but without consistent playing time there is no way he’s going to fully develop it.
Basically, from a pure performance standpoint, I get why Fredi has been playing Constanza over Heyward. From a standpoint of using the last couple of months of the season to get Heyward “right” in order to make the team as strong as possible heading into October, I think Fredi is mismanaging this situation terribly. And with an 8.5 game lead in the wildcard, getting Heyward right is much more important than the slight potential upgrade the team gets from Constanza right now.
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:25 pm
Except for professional pot-stirrers.(snotboogie)
Professional? Where do I go to pick up my paycheck? {:
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:27 pm
hink, one day in the future the ball will be tracked and the field will be broken down into a computer scanned grid that directly tracks in real time. NickB
that is pretty much happening already in many parks. every play is recorded. without human interface though, it will likely ignore things like positioning and make it all too mechanical.
RC
August 29th, 2011
5:29 pm
NickB,
I’ll be happy when tracking the game has gotten to that granular level…I find it very interesting. I just think that certain “advanced” stats are thrown around without acknowleding their faults on a regular basis, although most on here seem to agree with my points on that.
Anders,
I count myself among those that have never mentioned “Wagner” and “choker” together in the same sentence. I’ve been a fan of his since I saw him sit down Andruw, Klesko, and Javy in order on what appeared to be 9 pitches one game.
I am not suprised that Lew did though
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:30 pm
I never used the words Wagner and choker in the same sentence. maybe they were talking about his gold neck chain
skep
August 29th, 2011
5:30 pm
Forget throwing money at guys turning 30 and on the downside. Spend the resources on developing the young talent. Think how much of the current payroll being paid to Kawakamee, McClouth, Lowe, Linebrink etc. for limited to no production. The young guns are the best players on this team. You pay a McCann, but few players are worth the long term contracts and Bourn is not one of them.
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:30 pm
After doing some research, a few writers developed the reasonable hypothesis that he wasn’t reaching as many balls to the right because he was cheating toward SS, trying to help cover up for Derek Jeter’s poor range at SS. So while he helped the team as a whole, his individual numbers showed a “decline” in defense….RC
So any hole that Jeter didn’t cover A-Rod took? I knew he took Jete’s throw aways.
RC
August 29th, 2011
5:31 pm
Alright everyone, I’m out for the night. Been a fun day on the blog, but I’m sure we’ll all be happy when there are actual games to discuss tomorrow.
TennesseePaul
August 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
Payne, the conclusions one draws from such a comparison can vary. The term “a lot” is subjective and could remain valid if previously defined prior to use. And finally, the assumption that all those who disagree are only aware of batting average is disingenuous at best.
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
Anders,
I count myself among those that have never mentioned “Wagner” and “choker” together in the same sentence. I’ve been a fan of his since I saw him sit down Andruw, Klesko, and Javy in order on what appeared to be 9 pitches one game. (RC)
Oh yeah, I meant to write everyone except RC (Rolling eyes).
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
5:32 pm
RC, I wouldn’t concern myself over Heyward’s lack of playing time.
The reason being…..Constanza has hit .185 in his last ten games. Some of us knew the speedster’s hot streak wouldn’t last.
monty
August 29th, 2011
5:34 pm
NickB- ‘Oh and Constanza is regressing big time. IMO a good scouting report is out on him and he is going to have to work the count more and not swing so much or he’s in trouble.
last 10 games his avg is .185, obp .245 and slugging is .185… epically bad”
This is where going to baseball reference and looking at the past 14 days can skew reality. Georgie’s last 7 AB’s he’s 0-7, previous to that he is 8-23. A .348 avg. Anyone, Chipper or whoever can have an ofer for a couple or 3 games. Doesn’t mean they are regressing and that teams have figured them out. LOL!
Shaun
August 29th, 2011
5:35 pm
Coach, Chipper was so much better offensively that Robinson had to do a lot more than he did defensively to catch up in overall value.
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:36 pm
about 9000 differences between Chipper and ’stanza as regards what to expect in the future
JMF
August 29th, 2011
5:36 pm
I love Borne in centerfield. However, I think Constanza is a .280-.300 hitter. There is nothing to suggest he is a fluke. He has always hit around .300. His style is the type of hitter who will always be a .300. He reminds me of Juan Pierre.
I so not understand. Please bring up P at shortstop. Give him the job. What he will only hit .270. We are only getting .240 now. I do not know anything about P’s defense but unless it is a glaring liability please bring him up.
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:38 pm
Anybody see my secret decoder?
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:39 pm
take Brooks’ 1350 ribbies and add 600 runs saved and you get way more runs than from Chipper
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:40 pm
Shaun- I totally agree with your 5:35. That’s twice today. I need to go lie down.
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:41 pm
need to keep up with that thing Anders. Mets fans need all the help they can get when conversing with knowledgeable fans from other teams………
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:41 pm
How do you measure a run saved? How many does Chipper have? I’m guessing you should add that to the equation -no?
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:42 pm
noliee- Like the knowledgable one at 5:36 that I needed it for? Yep, these are your brethren.
NickB
August 29th, 2011
5:43 pm
@ JMF yeah and Juan Pierre is not very good at the game of baseball.
@monty well he’s only played in 29 games in total and he’s been looking mediocre for the best 2 weeks. He’s regressing back to his normal numbers . an overvalued .300 hitter with no power, avg defense and an avg base stealer % wise. he stinks, he’s going to continue to stink and just because he’s fast our rather unfortunate mgr will keep running him out there…….. Constanza is a 4th OF’er who shouldn’t be starting for the Royals much less the Braves.
Moe Berg
August 29th, 2011
5:45 pm
SBerthiaumeESPN Steve Berthiaume
Ryan Howard 1 RBI shy of becoming just 3rd #Phillies player since 1900 with 6, 100-RBI seasons. Phils at #Reds tonight on ESPN.
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:45 pm
Chipper was a below defender. he’s lucky I ain’t taking runs off of him
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
5:45 pm
JMF, there is a reason why Constanza spent the better six years in the minors. Just as there is a reason he is in the big leagues, and reasoning tells what I my eyes are already seeing. Constanza is at best a fourth outfielder/bench player while Heyward’s ceiling can’t even begin to be estimated as of yet.
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:46 pm
if you couldn’t figure out that referred to the difference in sample size between the two players Anders, you seriously do need that ring. sigh.
CajunStorm
August 29th, 2011
5:47 pm
McOut, Where is Kawakami, Linebrink, off the books next year = Approx. $15-$17 Mill
Since you have Boras in the mix you have to blow them away with an extension. So if $6.5 – $7mill is what he’d get in arbitration we should offer him 5 yrs/$50 Million and structure it like ‘13=$12m, ‘14=$11m, ‘15=$10m, ‘16-$9m, ‘17=$8m.
This would allow the Braveauxs to spend it when they have it to spend. Declines when other players like Heyward, Freeman, McCann (again), Kimbrel, and Venters are ready to get their $.
The pitch is simply “We want you here and we’ll throw out your last year of arb and double your expected pay in ‘12. Quite simply you will never have a chance to recoup tomorrow the $6 mill more we are offering today.” This kid has truly worked his way up here from very humble beginnings. I think he takes it with or without Boras’ consent.
Hugo
August 29th, 2011
5:47 pm
Why would 10 games be enough to prove Constanza’s success is over? That 10 games is what fraction of the games he’s played? Can we at least wait until his average drops below .300 to decide he sucks? fractional difference over Heyward? Am i watching the same games?
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
5:48 pm
Brooks Robinson made every pitcher who stepped on the mound better than they were. We can’t say the same for Chipper.
NickB
August 29th, 2011
5:49 pm
I was just perusing Constanza’s splits and I just noticed something odd. He gets worse the 2nd and 3rd time through the lineup against the starting pitcher…. (1.174, .895, . 679 respectively) that’s strange as most batters improve every time through….. I’m just not a Constanza fan. never was. there’s guys like him all over the game in the minors, they come up, have a hot month, then cool off and end up back in AAA again. He’s a AAAA player who’s only tools are his contact rate and his speed. But if it falls, he becomes expendable awfully fast.
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:49 pm
noliee- Uhm, ok.
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:50 pm
Brooks Robinson made every pitcher who stepped on the mound better than they were. We can’t say the same for Chipper. (CoacH)
Do you mean when they got in the batters box? {:
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
5:51 pm
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:50 pm
Brooks Robinson made every pitcher who stepped on the mound better than they were. We can’t say the same for Chipper. (CoacH)
Do you mean when they got in the batters box? {:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Nope
NickB
August 29th, 2011
5:53 pm
10 games is enough because he’s becoming what his minor league numbers said he would. a light hitting corner OF’er with no pop and no plate discipline. (he’s played in 29 games so far) . It’s not like he’s some 21 year old phenom kid who hit a rough patch. Constanza is Charles Thomas but less talented and older. He will make a good 4th OF’er where he isn’t overexposed and he can cover all 3 spots when needed.
Let me put it this way, if he was arb eligible, the team would non-tender him. I don’t think it’s even debatable. I know they would/
Anders
August 29th, 2011
5:54 pm
Sorry Coach- it was just sitting there waiting to be said. Take care folks.
Be back when I can. Good talking with you guys again.
Shaun
August 29th, 2011
5:54 pm
Coach, but we can say Chipper was vastly better at the plate than Robinson.
noliee
August 29th, 2011
5:54 pm
I was in Baltimore and a mega Orioles fan when Brooksie and Gentile and Hanson and Estrada and Pappas came up. Huge Brooks fan, but I guess in all seriousness I rate Chipper higher.
Shaun
August 29th, 2011
5:56 pm
Coach, and you use defensive WAR, so I’m assuming you trust it to some degree. So what do you think about overall WAR (that takes into account offense and defense and base-running and position) rating Chipper much higher than Brooks Robinson?
NickB
August 29th, 2011
5:57 pm
Brooks Robinson was a great fielder. But his glove isn’t enough to overshadow what a mediocre hitter he was. His career OPS is .200 points below Chipper, Mathews and Schmidts. That’s a vast difference
Heyward's Cult
August 29th, 2011
5:58 pm
Why would 10 games be enough to prove Constanza’s success is over?
Because he’s taking playing time away from Jason, the future Hall of Famer. And no, we can’t wait. We’ve been sitting here salivating for him to come down to earth and prove what a scrub he really is. These past ten games show he’s a career minor leaguer who should never have been allowed to play instead of the greatest outfielder in all of baseball.
TnBrian
August 29th, 2011
5:58 pm
I’ll ask all of you this question – do we have the pitching, mainly SP, to go far into the world series? I say it’s 60/40 in favor of no. That’s where I’m at right now.
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
5:58 pm
Statistical proof that Ozzie Smith is the greatest of all time at his position. Anyone who has ever seen him play knows this to be true. Bill James once told Peter Gammons that Ozzie saved his team over 100 runs per season. That’s the difference between a 3.50 and a 4.30 ERA for a pitcher.
The same can be said of Brooks Robinson. He made every pitcher on the mound better due to his great defense at 3B.
TennesseePaul
August 29th, 2011
6:01 pm
10 games is enough because he’s becoming what his minor league numbers said he would. a light hitting corner OF’er with no pop and no plate discipline.
He is “regressing” to his norm. I marked the end of his hot streak not long ago. It was pretty obvious. But, “no plate discipline” in the minors? He had plate discipline in the minors. He just didn’t have power. That could continue in the majors. It wouldn’t change the fact that he’s merely a speedy 4th outfielder. He’s better than Schafer in that regard, but that’s about it. He is certainly not a legitimate threat to secure a long term starting job in the Braves outfield unless he is still around after 2012 and this team decides to pass on Bourn. Even then I’d say his chances would be slim.
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
6:01 pm
Shaun, I’ll always see the game different than most. Pitching is defense, defense is pitching. The two go together. Just like power and speed.
Brava
August 29th, 2011
6:03 pm
I’m just not a Constanza fan. never was.
I would have never gathered that by reading your comments.
noliee
August 29th, 2011
6:03 pm
Brooks and the Wizard of Oz. along with Andruw they are the three greatest defenders I ever saw play regularly.
I saw a good bit of Mays but not so much when he was real young and just a wee bit of Joltin’ Joe
Shaun
August 29th, 2011
6:03 pm
Coach, no one is arguing that Brooks Robinson wasn’t one of the best defensive players ever. I’m arguing that his overall value is higher than Chipper’s.
TennesseePaul
August 29th, 2011
6:07 pm
Biff has hit .277/.346/.340/.687 over his last 16 games and 14 starts. Since his hand cooled off, he has shown an isolated discipline of .069, which is close to his career minor league level.
The talk has been on his last 10 games of .185/.241/.185/.427. One game can change those numbers. His last 11– .267/.333/.267/.600. Still no power (all singles in that time), but that was never his game.
Steve from OH
August 29th, 2011
6:09 pm
This is what’s great about baseball, isn’t it? There’s usually no right answer. I’m simply happy to say that Chipper is right up there with Brooks, one of the best 3B ever. That’s a pretty special player to say I’ve seen play.
Steve from OH
August 29th, 2011
6:10 pm
Wait, Biff’s come back down to Earth? Who could’ve ever foreseen this tragedy?
noliee
August 29th, 2011
6:11 pm
Biff has hit .277/.346/.340/.687…10P
he might be able to stay somewhere near that in the bigs. If so he will be a good 4th OFer
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
6:13 pm
Another great example of how important defense is and why it’s underrated.
Back in the winter of 1990-1991 John Schuerholz knew he had the makings of a great young pitching staff. So what did our venerable GM do? He surrounded them with defense. Schuerholz brought in Pendleton, Bream, Nixon and Belliard because they were all great with the glove. Their offense was incidental and of secondary concern. Atlanta already had the great young bats in Ron Gant and David Justice. Nixon could run but again, he was brought in to play defense.
What happened? We all know what happened. Pitching, defense, power and speed turned our Braves into a WS caliber team. Our 2011 Braves are comparable to some degree but are still improving.
Steve from OH
August 29th, 2011
6:13 pm
nolie–yeah, I agree. He might not be a bad 4th OF if he can get on base consistently. He’s got some useful skills.
TennesseePaul
August 29th, 2011
6:16 pm
he might be able to stay somewhere near that in the bigs. If so he will be a good 4th OFer
Agreed. I could see that as being more of his level of production. Certainly more so than the .400 line he was posting for the first 10 games.
Coach (2011 Fredi G. a go!)
August 29th, 2011
6:17 pm
Chipper Jones is ranked among the top five third basemen and top five switch hitters of all time. But he can’t hold a candle to Brooks Robinson’s glove work. If ya’ll want to rank Chipper higher overall, that’s fine by me.
southgabrave
August 29th, 2011
6:17 pm
I saw Brooks play many times and I can say that Brooks defense is far superior to Chippers. On the other hand I can also say that Chippers bat is far superior to Brooks bat. They are two different type players. The Orioles needed Brooks defense more than his bat on those teams. He wasn’t counted on a 3-5 hitter most of his career. The Braves need Chipper more for his bat than is glove. He has always been a 3-hole hitter on the Braves. He was counted on to drive the offense for the Braves. I saw Brooks win a World Series with his defense. Which is better? I think it would depend on the type of team each is surrounded with? I would find a place for either on my team any day.
MIBravesFan
August 29th, 2011
6:23 pm
“ncscoots
August 29th, 2011
4:25 pm
But, is Leyland’s closer use ‘optimal’…
I think Leyland still wears cleats at the ballpark, so my guess is that he give a person suggesting “optimal” use of a bullpen his most sympathetic look of pity. Or incredulity. Or scorn. Or maybe the one that says, “You see what kind of bull-bleep I have to put up with in this bleepin’ office?”.
One of those.”
Snotboogie
August 29th, 2011
6:37 pm
Cough.
DS1
August 29th, 2011
6:42 pm
Kinda like “Who is the greatest guitar player of all time?” (although guitar players do not have “stats” to compare)
They are BOTH great ballplayers. Which one do you prefer? I prefer the one that is playing on my team!
What?
August 29th, 2011
6:43 pm
Are the Braves still playing? Is it over and how did we come out?
keylargo
August 29th, 2011
6:45 pm
My eyes tell me Heyward is an above average left fielder but not great.
Really? I’ve never seen him play LF.
Undiagnosed Dyslexia, but it makes me wonder if he thinks McCann & Chipper throw LH.
reckingball
August 29th, 2011
6:47 pm
Eric Clapton
noliee
August 29th, 2011
6:52 pm
Eric & Duane
Stereowire
August 29th, 2011
6:55 pm
Pretty nice break for the Braves to be get a 3 day break in the dog days…especially with Chipper and McCann being key players and the bullpen’s need for a rest.
Atlanta Fan
August 29th, 2011
6:55 pm
Don’t think for one minute that the salaries quoted here will interest Mr. Boros one tiny bit. He knows of the lack of CF prospects the Braves have and the spark he has added to the team. He will use that to jack up Bourn’s perceived value. No figure less than 80 million for a four or five year contract will be acceptable to him. And don’t think for another minute that the final decision is up to Bourn.
BravesAC
August 29th, 2011
6:56 pm
Is it the off-season already?!?!? It sure feels like it.
Did we sign any free agents? Is Lowe traded yet? Did we dump Boras clinets yet? Wait. What? It’s not the off season already? Nevermind.
No games to read about/watch can get ya a little crazy, you know?
BravesAC
August 29th, 2011
6:58 pm
I do agree that the bullpen getting an unexpected big break can help a lot later in the post season. That’s what I see as the biggest benefit to this break.
BravesAC
August 29th, 2011
7:00 pm
By the way, Schafer seems to be doing fine for the Astros. I’m really glad we have Bourn but I wish Schafer(sp?) well too. I sure like how he exited with class. It’s like this season we got to watch him mature as a person.
BravesAC
August 29th, 2011
7:02 pm
Will four comments in a row get me at LEAST an honorable mention on one of those “how many times they posted” lists?????
MIBravesFan
August 29th, 2011
7:03 pm
Little did I know it at the time, but now it turns out to have been a good thing I missed last Monday’s game. It give me something to watch tonight as Braves withdrawal seriously starts to set in.
McFann :Ô: :Ô:
August 29th, 2011
7:03 pm
Geesh! They shoulda moved this Thursday’s game to tonight!
MIBravesFan
August 29th, 2011
7:03 pm
gives
T for Texas
August 29th, 2011
7:08 pm
Whew, time to suck it up and root for Cincinnati. Despising the Phillies can be a tough job sometimes.
Snotboogie
August 29th, 2011
7:23 pm
Hamels asks “What arm soreness?” as he breezes through the 1st inning.
Snotboogie
August 29th, 2011
7:31 pm
Alex Gordon is having a pretty good season. KC lucked out on Frenchie and Melky, too.
Kat
August 29th, 2011
7:33 pm
Anyone use Firefox 6.0 on this blog? I’ve been getting Adobe Flash 10 errors the past week (updated and reinstalled Adobe Flash and still getting the error). It’s not always..which makes me think it’s specific advertisments that are causing the problem. Happening to anyone else?
Snotboogie
August 29th, 2011
7:35 pm
Kat,
I use Firefox 6.0 but have had no such problems. Possibly because I have adblocked the trouble causing entities.
Kat
August 29th, 2011
7:40 pm
Snotboogie-
They’re not popup ads so unsure if that would solve the problem. I’ve read the past two versions of Firefox have had flash issues. Guess I’ll have to wait until a newer version comes out and use IE for now for the blog. Thanks for the info.
Snotboogie
August 29th, 2011
7:50 pm
If you already have adblock plug-in installed (not pop-ups but all ads) and still have problems, you could try a plugin to block all scripts or just flash.
Kat
August 29th, 2011
7:51 pm
Would it block all flash because I wouldn’t want it to block everything that uses flash..
Snotboogie
August 29th, 2011
7:53 pm
By default it’ll will block flash and give you a flash symbol to click on and run a specific video should you choose to.
Bravefaninok
August 29th, 2011
7:55 pm
I use FF 6.0 no flash issues so far.
Bravefaninok
August 29th, 2011
8:04 pm
1-0 reds in the 4th.
MIBravesFan
August 29th, 2011
8:05 pm
Thanks, Bravefaninok
M.P.
August 29th, 2011
8:11 pm
“It going to be sunny sky over Turner Field today”
Just Pat
August 29th, 2011
8:28 pm
I HATE coming to a blog so late like I did today because I always want to go back and read as many posts as I can. THEN, I read several relevant posts and want to say “kudos” to those posters, but am still 3 or 4 pages behind. Anyway, to all you guys who made such great posts today (I’ll let YOU figure out who I’m talking about), thanks……..I enjoyed them all.
Just Pat
August 29th, 2011
8:29 pm
Oh, yeah…..and DOB……..YOUR blogs are ALWAYS appreciated. Thanks!
T for Texas
August 29th, 2011
8:32 pm
Alex Gordon is having a pretty good season. KC lucked out on Frenchie and Melky, too.
Yet they can only win at a .410 clip. Such is life and luck in KC. They have position players galore, but man are they woeful on pitching, stoking the rumours that they would like to be Braves’ trade partners in the offseason.
Just Pat
August 29th, 2011
8:33 pm
I do know this……anyone talking about trading Prado (hex sign here!) or denigrating Heyward simply for the recent “what have you done for me lately” aspect, have no idea what you’re talking about. You’re probably the same ones who wanted to bench Uggla “back when”.
Sally Fingelsten
August 29th, 2011
8:36 pm
I have been happily married for 59 years and now I think my husband Stanley is cheating on me. My friend Delores told me to see is he has one of those internet facebooks and see if meets his girlfriend there. He is a braves fan. Can one of you braves fans tell me how to find him cheating on facebook?
T for Texas
August 29th, 2011
8:37 pm
Grab ‘em by the collar, and shake ‘em up, Pat!
Tom in Lawrenceville
August 29th, 2011
8:37 pm
Excellent article! This is journalism.
Just Pat
August 29th, 2011
8:38 pm
If he’s rooting for the Philthy Phillies…….he’s cheating!
Just Pat
August 29th, 2011
8:41 pm
T for Texas
Just remember what Brian Jordan said way back during Uggla’s struggles…….”turn the baseball card over, folks, and look at the back”. Pretty much summed it up. Now, Heyward doesn’t have that longevity, but……DOES have all the promise.
T for Texas
August 29th, 2011
8:44 pm
Amen, Pat. Just gotta let him play through it.
Just Pat
August 29th, 2011
8:44 pm
Should say Heyward doesn’t have that longevity in the majors, but……go back through his minor (and before then) career…….
T for Texas
August 29th, 2011
8:48 pm
Phillies with 33 games in 31 days, coming up. Including 4 with MIL, 4 with STL, and 6 with ATL.
Lew
August 29th, 2011
8:49 pm
Power just came back on. Lots of flooding up here and over 270 roads washed out. Could take over a month to get power back to everyone, but we’re doing fine.
MIBravesFan
August 29th, 2011
8:50 pm
Good to hear, Lew
T for Texas
August 29th, 2011
8:50 pm
Good deal, Lew.