4:46 pm August 23, 2011, by David O'Brien
August 24th, 20112:53 pm
I’m afraid if we don’t shut down o’ventbrel and save them for the post season then we will have Linebrink and Cheryl co-closing. *shudders*
August 24th, 20112:54 pm
timthebrave, whether the Braves had Michael Bourn or not, Uggla should have played virtually every day. Because you don’t assume talented players who are fairly young will struggle to the point of being worthless beyond yesterday.
McFann :Ô: :Ô:
August 24th, 20112:56 pm
Philly trails the Mets 6 to 3 at the end of 4.
August 24th, 20112:57 pm
Ugh, don’t even Fish.
Funny, now the argument is that Uggla should have been benched, if there was an appropriate backup. Not that the Braves handled Uggla appropriately and even if they’d had a decent backup (which they did), he should have played regularly. No wonder folks don’t want Heyward to play. They would have been accepting of an Uggla benching if the Braves would have had what they deemed an appropriate backup.
August 24th, 20112:58 pm
groundhog blog…to bad there is a never ending line of people willing to argue the same thing over and over and over. Its like a carnival line where they just keep stepping up and paying their $5 and get their 3 cracks at dunking the clown only the clown has rigged the seat and no matter how hard you hit the target nothing happens.
August 24th, 20112:59 pm
hey Scoots are you willing yo put some money on the “just bow up” thingy about catching the Phils?
August 24th, 20113:00 pm
So Shaun, what you’re basically saying is that a manager should put his best team (statistically speaking, of course) on the field the first game of the season, and come hell or high water, never change it. Because if they were good enough to start on April 1, they are good enough to start on August 30.
August 24th, 20113:01 pm
3 cracks at dunking the clown only the clown has rigged the seat and no matter how hard you hit the target nothing happens.
Normally, I’d fix that by aiming one right at the clown’s lips, but I don’t know what the blog equivalent of that might be.
Oh, yeah. Judging by the comments on the blog, it is true that a lot of people would have accepted Uggla being benched often. That same attitude is why people want Heyward to be benched regularly. That same attitude is why people thought the Braves were nothing more than a .500 team earlier in the season after a few weeks or after the Braves have a rough 3-5-game stretch.
August 24th, 20113:04 pm
Shaun (August 24th, 2011 1:34 pm): “Lew, The Braves apparently can’t even convince themselves on what to do about players playing below expectations. They handle Uggla and Prado one way and Heyward a different way. It’s a jumbled up mess of inconsistency.”
Hmmmmm — lessee:
Uggla career thru 2010 (2927 ABs): .259/.342/.484/.826;
Uggla 2011 thru 30 Jun (303 ABs): .178/.247/.340/.587
Prado career thru 2010 (1378 ABs): .299/.346/.443/.790;
Prado 2011 thru 23 Aug (424 ABs): .271/.316/.408/.724
Heyward career thru 2010 (520 ABs): .257/.364/.435/.799;
Heyward 2011 thru 23 Aug (321 ABs): .224/.314/.402/.716
Whyever would the Braves treat Uggla or Prado differently from Heyward???
Sure, why not? I don’t know that I ever put a certainty on catching them, but I’m willing to give it a shot. What do you have in mind?
August 24th, 20113:05 pm
MikeInFl, yes. A manager should play the best, most talented, most skilled players virtually everyday the whole season unless the team acquires someone who is clearly better, more talented, more skilled; or unless there is an injury. Obviously players will need off days, but a team shouldn’t give it’s best players 3-4 days off in a row unless there is an injury.
August 24th, 20113:07 pm
You really can’t tell Random? I fell bad for you.
August 24th, 20113:08 pm
Random, certainly when you consider those numbers along with age and skills, there is absolutely no reason to treat Heyward differently than Uggla or Prado.
August 24th, 20113:09 pm
scoots, you would hire a 14 year old hacker to infect their computer with malware that would take their web postings and change all stats to the counting and bubblegum card kind. Thus humiliating and branding said clown as one of the, , old schoolers, for life? Not that I am advocating that by any means.
August 24th, 20113:10 pm
Shaun, So what you are saying is that Heyward should have played the previous 10 games. The Braves would most likely have played worse for the last 2 weeks but statistically it is what should have been done?
You wish the Braves would have played worse over the last 10 days because it goes against statistics for Constanza to be playing over Heyward in that time frame
August 24th, 2011
I think that the Phillies’ MVP is their entire starting staff for keeping their bullpen innings to a minimum. That pen would be radically exposed and their record would suffer badly if not for the starters going an extra inning or two and keeping the pen out of the game..
Hope that equates too “tired arms” come October
August 24th, 20113:11 pm
Well, I certainly don’t have a definitive answer for you, but, could I steal that “oral cavity” insult?
The problem with that is “aural cavity” can be used an easy return insult.
Eleven in '11
“A manager should play the best, most talented, most skilled players virtually everyday the whole season unless the team acquires someone who is clearly better, more talented, more skilled; or unless there is an injury.”
Well, J Hey is getting his chance once again to show that he is clearly better and more talented, isn’t he? Last night was a great start, now he needs to show up for the next few games and force Fredi to have to play him regularly. I’m pulling for him, as we all are. BUT … if he falters, and Georgie comes back and does the job, I have no qualms about him getting more playing time.
It’s on Heyward now.
Frank from KS (now living in CO)
August 24th, 20113:15 pm
Jimmy, McFann, and cab – You all say DH cheapens the game, right?
DIdn’t steriods do the same damn thing?
I’d rather see a HITTER at the plate, then a pitcher with a bat.
Scoots and S-Boogie: I adapted that one from a Sporting News article I read way back in the ’70s, if you can believe it, Yankee Stadium Fans response to Steinbrenner trading Reggie Jackson to the Angels.
Reggie hit a homer in Yankee Stadium and as he circled the bases the NY faithful erupted spontaneously into a 50,000 voiced chorus of “Steinbrenner creates a partial vacuum…”
August 24th, 20113:16 pm
Do we not drift towards the esoteric with such a riposte, though? I mean, the guy has to actually understand it to be insulted, right?
I hope Heyward wins the job back but it needs to be done on the field and not by statistical blog bs
August 24th, 20113:19 pm
“They handle Uggla and Prado one way and Heyward a different way. It’s a jumbled up mess of inconsistency.”
No it’s not. They handled players with multiple years of major league service one way while they handled a kid that has proven to be more hype than fact with a year of major league service another way. That is consistent. Maturity and experience to the right. Hype and inexperience, to the left.
Besides, when did Fredi actually bench Heyward? He was benched after Uggla had begun hitting. So Heyward had as much time or more than Uggla to get fixed and didn’t produce. People act like Fredi ran up to Heyward in May and shouted “SOB” and benched him. Until Constanza showed up, which wasn’t even a full month ago, Heyward had only a couple of “mental” days off and injury time off. Right field was still his job.
For someone who is so tied to the idea that statistics don’t lie, you sure are a fan of revisionist history!
August 24th, 20113:20 pm
timthebrave, over the long haul Heyward and Prado playing virtually everyday is likely to be worth more wins than resting either one in favor of Constanza (at least on days when Chipper is also in the lineup). Goes for Uggla too. Unless you acquire a player who is clearly better (not just one whose basic, on-the-surface stats look better over the course of a few weeks or even a few months), the better player should play most days and certainly not be given 3-4 days off in a row.
Certainly there were enough plate appearances for Constanza, if you want him in there fairly regularly, by just resting Chipper, Prado and Heyward without having to sit Heyward, Prado or Chipper 3-4 games in a row or 5 out of 6 or something like that.
August 24th, 20113:21 pm
Scoots – personally, I’m satisfied if I’m the only one in the conversation who understands.
But I come here to be a shameless homer for my Braves, not to watch insults being lobbed back and forth as if on an elementary school playground.
I never said that the DH cheapened the game (Shaun was the one that said the lack of DH cheapened it). I merely said I don’t like it.
August 24th, 20113:23 pm
cab – maybe since I grew up an AL guy, maybe that’s why I like the DH rule..moreso than a lot on this blog.
August 24th, 20113:24 pm
Hope we score ten runs tonight,I think we will need that many to win.
“not if we win the division. just saying.”
So you’re assuming that if we win the division, we’ll win all the games at home and lose all of them on the road?
August 24th, 20113:26 pm
With both the Braves and, apparently, Hurricane Irene both headed to New York this weekend, with at least category 2 storm conditions likely by Sunday, are there any discussion between the Braves and Mets about doubling up Friday? Since this is our last visit to Citi Field this year, seems like the Mets would want to make sure to get all 3 in and not have to postpone to a later day off.
August 24th, 20113:27 pm
BoatDoc, as you say. I myself come here for entertainment, and there are some days I must entertain myself, LOL. Thus, the need for occasional numbletard-skewering.
I don’t do that nearly as much as I once did (I’m always trying to be a better man). Still, one likes to have arrows in one’s quiver if one is tempted to pull the bow, so I’m still taking that dig from you.
Shaun, I was arguing with you on why it was not the same to bench Uggla compared to Heyward. I wasn’t arguing why Uggla should be benched.
August 24th, 20113:28 pm
why limit the DH to pitchers? Have 8 defensive players a pitcher and 9 hitters.
Shaun, I agree with you on playing Heyward…But you know what is even better than playing Heyward everyday over the long haul. Somehow guessing that Constanza is going to hit .400 when Heyward is slumping. I get how statistically you shouldn’t do that but it seems FG knew something you didn’t
August 24th, 20113:31 pm
tiger297, why limit the DH to pitchers?
If you are a fan of the DH I don’t see why not. It would make for better played baseball. That way you can have the best hitters playing and the best fielders playing
…Me…I’ll stick with the old school way
Abacus Skeptic, I could care less about hype. It’s about talent and skills. Just because a player isn’t living up to consensus hype, doesn’t necessarily mean he shouldn’t play. The only thing that should be considered is whether he is the best option, not whether or not he’s living up to hype.
Say the consensus “hype” around Tommy Hanson was that he’d step in and be a Cy Young contender. If he comes in and is only good enough to be be a 3rd starter, does that mean he should be sent down the the minors because he’s not living up to the hype? No. You don’t measure players against hype. You determine if they are the best options available.
As far as Uggla being given the same chance, as far as number of games or point in the season, Uggla was far worse. Prado is a much more apt comparison. If they are going to bench Heyward, there was absolutely no reason to not bench Prado. But it was/would have been stupid to bench either one.
timthebrave, no one is talking about “statistical blog bs.” It’s about skills, talent and track record of performance in more than just a few weeks or months. Statistics just measure things that happened on the field, and the right ones, used appropriately, give you a pretty good indication of skills and talent.
August 24th, 20113:32 pm
Scoots – Fair enough, Sir. I’ll try to steer myself clear of the line of fire. If I wind up with an arrow in my backside I suspect it will be because I deserved it.
What about Smoltz?
August 24th, 20113:33 pm
“His in-season turnaround is as pronounced and dramatic as any I can remember, or that any that any of the others I’ve asked, including some who’ve been around the game a lot longer than me, could remember.”
What about Smoltz’ second half turnaround in 1991?
August 24th, 20113:34 pm
I’m not exactly “pro-steroids”, either…
boatdoc – oh come on don’t be that nice could be just because some of the folks on the blog just plain can’t shoot straight
August 24th, 20113:35 pm
BoatDoc, it would take a rudely unprincipled man to insult someone with a phrase of his own making, LOL. I was raised better than that.
Besides, as I recall, I’ve never see you post anything remotely worthy of skewering.
August 24th, 20113:36 pm
“Somehow guessing that Constanza is going to hit .400 when Heyward is slumping. I get how statistically you shouldn’t do that but it seems FG knew something you didn’t”
It was so much guessing that he would hit .400, as much as it was assuming he wouldn’t hit .175.
Irene is still looking like it is going to first hit NC and VA and I bet it even causes Lew some problems up in New England. Plus the Braves are in New York this weekend and it’s good chance those games will be affected. This is a big, big storm and it’s going to build up considerable once it clears the Bahamas.
August 24th, 20113:37 pm
**wasn’t so much….
August 24th, 20113:38 pm
Braves lineup: 1. Bourn CF, 2. Prado LF, 3. McCann C, 4. Uggla 2B , 5. Freeman 1B, 6. Jones 3B , 7. Heyward RF, 8. Gonzalez SS, 9. Lowe P
timthebrave, do you really think Fredi or anyone in the Braves’ organization knew Constanza would hit .400? If so, why wasn’t he up on Opening Day? Why would Heyward or Prado ever have played and why would they have bothered trading for Michael Bourn?
Smoltz – yep, JS should have won “Comeback Player of the Year” that year, except at that point he was still “never was.”
Scoots – on a different string I was called stoopid only today for suggesting that Fredi might have let Minor pitch to Alvarez in the 4th yesterday partially to demonstrate to Minor his confidence.
August 24th, 20113:40 pm
A manager should play the best, most talented, most skilled players virtually everyday the whole season unless the team acquires someone who is clearly better, more talented, more skilled; or unless there is an injury….Shaun
I’m on board with this especially theoretically . and this is what most teams would like to be able to do. The anti-hot hand approach.obviously when those deemed as the best players fall way below expectations for very long time it opens up second thoughts especially to impatient fans.
Time for that “late season form” Lowe to show up again.
If Heyward is at the beginning of a Chipper-instructed resurgence, that is a SCARY lineup you just posted, DOB.
August 24th, 20113:41 pm
Frank from KS (now living in CO) -” Jimmy, McFann, and cab – You all say DH cheapens the game, right?
DIdn’t steriods do the same damn thing?”
Exactly my point. Ban them both.
August 24th, 20113:42 pm
Mets up 7-3 headed to the 7th.
August 24th, 20113:43 pm
Especially if the few rotation pieces that haven’t been performing great come around. If JJ, Lowe, and Hanson get it together, this team has the potential to do a lot in the postseason.
August 24th, 20113:50 pm
About time for the Mets to give us a hand!
August 24th, 20114:01 pm
Looks like the Cards have all but given up.
August 24th, 20114:02 pm
shaun I’m not saying they should have handled the Uggla situation differently. That wasn’t my point. My point is that the Uggla situation was handled quite well
seems to me that your point is that the situations weren’t handled equitably. the problem there is that the situations werent equitable to begin with, though you continue to act like they are.
August 24th, 20115:15 pm
“Jimmy, McFann, and cab – You all say DH cheapens the game, right?
I’d rather see a HITTER at the plate, then a pitcher with a bat.”
You see eight HITTERS at the plate not including the pitcher in the NL. Just because you have a DH doesn’t mean you will score more runs than a team who bats with a pitcher.
August 24th, 20115:27 pm
Ok, joining the Heyward/Constanza argument…
I actually think that the discovery that Constanza could do what he’s done was a stroke of luck. Way i remember it, he got in the game because McClouth and Schafer were on the DL at the same time (nothing to do with heyward). Then he starts tearing it up, high average, adds speed. He only took Heyward’s spot after Bourn came to town. He wasn’t given a chance because Heyward was struggling. He was left in because he was awesome. Heyward suddenly became the obvious 4th best outfielder for the time being. Stupid not to play Constanza.
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