Hanson returns to Atlanta to have shoulder checked

MIAMI – Braves pitcher Tommy Hanson left the team and returned to Atlanta to have his sore shoulder examined Tuesday, a move manager Fredi Gonzalez characterized as precautionary.

“They’ll do the whole workup on him and see what’s there, see if there’s a problem,” Gonzalez said. “No matter how the evaluation goes, we’re going to go ahead and bump him back.”

Hanson, who was scheduled to start Friday against the Chicago Cubs, is now penciled in to start Tuesday against San Francisco, pending the outcome of the exam. Mike Minor will move up a day to start Friday and still be on regular rest because of Thursday’s off day in the schedule.

Hanson allowed seven runs in 3-1/3 innings Saturday at New York and slipped to 1-3 with an 8.10 ERA in five starts since the All-Star break, after going 10-4 with a 2.44 ERA before the break

After Saturday’s game, the right-hander declined to discuss with reporters whether he was having problems with his pitching shoulder. He had a 15-day stint on the disabled list in June for rotator-cuff tendinitis in the shoulder.

Hanson discussed the situation with Gonzalez, pitching coach Roger McDowell and team trainers.

“When a pitcher or an athlete comes to you and says he doesn’t feel good, I think you’ve got to go through the whole process of getting him checked out,” Gonzalez said. “I talked to him during the game Sunday, and spoke to him here [Monday] night.

“He seems OK. Not real concerned, but just doesn’t feel right.”

Gonzalez said the Braves’ plan to start Derek Lowe on Saturday and Brandon Beachy in Sunday’s series finale against the Cubs, followed by Tim Hudson on Monday, Hanson on Tuesday and Jair Jurrjens on Wednesday.

Jurrjens is on the DL with a strained right knee, and Wednesday is the first day he could be activated.

If Hanson requires a stint on the DL or is otherwise unable pitch Tuesday, the Braves would presumably recall Julio Teheran or another pitcher from Triple-A to fill in.

102 comments Add your comment

A brain cell

August 9th, 2011
7:23 pm

Its funny that reporters figured out Hanson was hurting before the coaching staff. And by funny, I mean pathetic that the coaching staff clearly has no idea what they’re doing

FIRE FREDI GONZALEZ

Weaseal

August 9th, 2011
7:27 pm

Hope its alright ….
and it was alright…

A brain cell

August 9th, 2011
7:28 pm

Fredi Gonzalez quote from less than 3 days ago:

“Nothing has been brought up to my attention or anybody’s attention that he’s not healthy.”

Does everything have to be “brought to your attention”? Can you not see Hanson is struggling? Did you and no one else on the staff even bother to ask Hanson about the shoulder? When reporters asked him, Hanson didn’t lie about being in pain. Sorta tried to avoid the question, but did not lie. There’s no way, NO WAY, that if any of the coaches had bothered to ask Hanson how he was feeling he would have lied to them. Maybe downplay it, but thats what most competitive athletes do! Coaches are supposed to see through that and PROTECT THEIR PLAYERS!

FIRE FREDI GONZALEZ!!!!!!!!

McCmann and Aquahoss

August 9th, 2011
7:29 pm

Off with his head!

No but seriously it’s his fault Hanson has an un-orthodox delivery? Pleaseeeee homie. Go back to your tumor where you belong!

Reid in EAV

August 9th, 2011
7:33 pm

@A brain cell – why do you believe Fredi is being completely forthcoming with the media? I don’t. I never do with baseball managers. Heck, Cox used to praise his players to the heavens when they stunk it up, even if they were getting reamed out behind closed doors. Trust me, if anything Fredi was 10 steps ahead of the rest of us on this. He just doesn’t like showing his hand to the opposition.

A brain cell

August 9th, 2011
7:34 pm

If you think I’m blaming Fredi for the injury, you don’t understand English. I’m blaming the coach for not KNOWING his player was playing through an injury and clearly not even bothering to ask him until reporters brought it to his attention. Homie

Total Grace

August 9th, 2011
7:36 pm

A brain cell

August 9th, 2011
7:41 pm

Reid,

There’s a difference between using unconditional positivity on players, like what Bobby did, and not knowing theres something physically wrong with your players, like Fredi. It isn’t some big secret that Hanson has had shoulder issues this year, and they are bad enough that he’s skipping his start, so there is literally no reason for Fredi to pretend like Hanson is fine. Plus it doesn’t give the opposition any advantage to know Hanson is having shoulder issues, if anything they already knew he was struggling severely coming out of the AS break. Fredi is not 10 steps ahead of everyone, he’s half a step behind. Stop trying to justify your point by assuming someone is strategically just leagues ahead of you. It makes you sound weak and makes your point indefensible outside of mystical brain powers. If anything, Fredi has proven over and over again he has a very below average IQ

Got game

August 9th, 2011
7:57 pm

Any update on the rain delay?

bravemom

August 9th, 2011
7:59 pm

lol @ a brain cell, I think you have one more than you actually do!

Killa Karl Kox

August 9th, 2011
8:06 pm

No news here, everyone but the blind masses could see Hanson was in trouble with that shoulder, those mechanics are inevitable for TJ surgery! NEXT super stud prospect please.

jester

August 9th, 2011
8:08 pm

hes goin on the shelf, hope back healthy sooner rather than later,i say teheran all the way, should be phun to watch

Peter

August 9th, 2011
8:09 pm

Well I’m no doctor, but I’m pretty sure TJ surgery is for the elbow, not the shoulder. Again, not a doctor so correct me if I’m wrong.

Mason

August 9th, 2011
8:12 pm

Wow, ‘a brain cell’ has some hate for Fredi. I’m a little shocked. Fredi has our team leading the wild card race even with McCann, Prado, Chipper and Jurrjens hurting. That’s 4 all-stars spending significant time on the DL and we still have one of the best records in baseball. Yet you call for Wren to fire Fredi?
I am curious Mr. A Brain Cell, how do you know that Fredi has not asked Hanson if he was injured? The quote you posted was that no one had brought any injury to his attention, but he could have asked. And are you are saying that Fredi should have seen through whatever answer Hanson gave and known that he was injured? Doesn’t that take “mystical mind powers?” What a joke…
All that being said, I am curious to why you say Fredi has proven over and over again that he has a below average IQ. Please Mr. A Brain Cell, explain just how much smarter in baseball knowledge you are than a MLB coach making millions. I am extremely anxious to hear why you think Fredi is the Forrest Gump of MLB. I bet you are the same type of Braves fan who called for us to trade Uggla before his hitting streak. Take your Braves bashing somewhere else clown.

Harpie

August 9th, 2011
8:12 pm

Let’s hope Jurrjens gets back to pitching the way he did in the first half – he was excellent!

Rowsdower

August 9th, 2011
8:20 pm

I’m amazed that it took the staff this long to get MRIs for Jurrjens and Hanson despite their dramatic shift in performance since the All-Star break. They were probably under the same misguided impression that some of the talking heads on this site are. That JJ and Tommy were “regressing to the mean.”

Yet another thing that metrics can’t quantify…health.

El Bravo

August 9th, 2011
8:21 pm

So, I guess a brain cell is suggesting that Gonzalez should have benched Hanson even though Hanson had not asked out of any game or complained of any discomfort. Baseball seasons are long and have a different ebb and flow from other sports. Even the greatest of players go through periods of ineffectiveness and it doesn’t mean that they are injured. Players get hot and they get cold because the mechanics of hitting and pitching are very complex. Managers can’t assume an injury if the player is adamant that nothing is wrong… And Killa, Tommy John is an elbow surgery, not a shoulder one…

Pete

August 9th, 2011
8:25 pm

It seems like playing 7 consecutive road games against the braves and the phillies put the pirates on the skids. I hope they recover and finish their season losing to the braves in the nlcs.

South Georgia Boy

August 9th, 2011
8:26 pm

Brain Cell HAS TWO CELLS, BUT THEY DON’t WORK TOGETHER, THEY WORK AGAINST EACH OTHER.

Milt Famey

August 9th, 2011
8:27 pm

Mr Brain Cell, Managers,coaches, GM’s, waterboys, etc don’t have a responsibility to inform the public or the news media about anything which would hinder their team’s performance. If Fredi G came out and said Hanson’s shoulder was a little tender, it would be like saying” He will be throwing more fastballs next time out since his slider hurts his shoulder to deliver.” or “Maybe he will have to rely more on the changeup next time.”
BTW FG has done an exceptional job of managing thru all the injuries, IMO.

[...] Atlanta Braves [...]

A brain cell

August 9th, 2011
8:30 pm

Funny, I recall Fredi managing the Marlins and staying right at .500. Its almost as if the team’s success is weighted heavily on the talent level of the players. In fact, its almost as though the only way a manager can make a major impact on the team is by being majorly mismanaging them (like benching a face of the franchise and heavily talented 22 year old). That is curious

As I said, Hanson didn’t hide his injury from the media. Wasn’t forthcoming, but you don’t really expect him to be forthcoming with that. If Fredi had asked him, there’s a 0% chance Hanson lies and pretends nothing is wrong. Probably downplays it like most competitive pro athletes, but its the job of the manager to know his players well enough to know he is injured/hiding an injury. Thats why the pay him the millions you referenced

I did not say Fredi was anything like Forrest Gump, Forrest Gump is considerably smarter than Fredi. If you honestly don’t know why Fredi is dumb, I don’t have the time to explain it to you because you won’t understand what I’m saying. Fredi relies heavily on AVG, RBIs, “hot hands”, and likes to use Venters even when the Braves have a 98% chance of victory. There are many reasons to believe Fredi has a below average IQ, if you pay attention to the things he says and does you may pick up on them

Finally, no, I did not want Uggla traded, and your strawman argument only shows how weak your point is. I want Heyward to play for the exact same reason I wanted Uggla to play- the better player always comes through. Its ridiculous to bench Heyward for some career minor leaguer, and is a testament to Fredi’s low IQ. I quite like the Braves, otherwise I wouldn’t spend time watching them and talking about them. I do not, however, like seeing a terrible and inept coaching staff ruin what is otherwise a very talented team

Heathcliff Slocum

August 9th, 2011
9:06 pm

Appears that we will get to see if a few of the big four were worth hanging on to down the stretch given the issues with Hanson and JJ.

So Cal Brave

August 9th, 2011
9:07 pm

Fredi managing the Marlins to a .500 record with the players he had shows that he is a good manager. It’s obvious that he asked Hanson if he was hurt and Hanson denied it or avoided an answer. I was actually not a fan of the Braves getting Fredi as a manager at first, but now I’m glad they did.

Kevin

August 9th, 2011
9:18 pm

Why the love for Heyward. He has been a huge disappointment. He has had the entire year to play to get back to it. I have to ask you besides the first half of last season, what has he done? The way he is hitting now is the way he was hitting in the second half. Plus Uggla got to play because nobody that could fill in his spot, field and hitting, was better than what we were getting from Uggla. Brooks? Lugo? No. A guy with speed, some hits (+.400 average) and same d ability in the outfield why would you not play him.
Plus since you are such a fan you will know that Heyward has been working with the hitting instructor and Chipper for the last couple of days and feels like he is progressing. He is 22. He does not deserve to play through it. Uggla did not look lost at the plate, lots of bad luck more than anything. Heyward is not taking pitches like he use to, lots of bad swings.

Athens Brave

August 9th, 2011
9:46 pm

A Brain Cell, way to go!! Just one thing you didn’t say that is worth noting–it was very obvious that something was very, very wrong with Hansen the last game he pitched. He had nothing and appeared very weak and actually in pain. Yet, he was left on the mound and struggled mightily until the game was lost. It was very painful to watch. Hansen deserves much better from his manager.

the truth...

August 9th, 2011
10:42 pm

A Brain Cell

Your comments are absurd and ignorant. Enough said……

urban redneck

August 9th, 2011
10:44 pm

to quote lou brown:

“over the course of 162 games, even tough guys get strains, sore arms or muscle pulls.”

roger

August 9th, 2011
10:58 pm

brain cell your out of your mind, Freddi has done a great job, 2nd best record in nl behind only the phillies, in his first yr, after a legend, calm it down.

Furman Bitcher

August 9th, 2011
10:59 pm

NickB

August 10th, 2011
12:20 am

Fredi has not done a good job……. OMG, only a complete retard would think that! he has constantly made the worst possible move at the worst possible time, he doesn’t appear to have a clue how to run a bullpen, nor any idea about how to use the talent he’s given. The team has won despite Fredi…. Not because of him…. seriously? Have you people watched baseball before?

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
12:26 am

Nick, so when the team wins the 2nd most games in the NL it is because Fredi is stupid. But every loss isn’t a single player doing the wrong thing at the wrong time…nope it is Fredi’s fault. Your “saber” thing is blinding you. You still think Constanza should not be playing, not because of eye-tested proven performance, but because “saber” says he will be a bad player. I watched baseball. I will be happy to be considered a “retard” by a person that would rather look at arbitrary numbers instead of what a player has done on the field to have an opinion about who plays and who doesn’t. What other team has only played 11 games together healthy all year? Please remind me Nick?

NickB

August 10th, 2011
12:32 am

No i think Constanza shouldn’t be playing for both reasons. He A) isn’t a very good defender nor baserunner to my eye and B) his numbers show he will not be anything other than a fast guy who hits singles.

Fredi makes Bone head moves all the time!!!! This has nothing to do with sabr stuff. This has everything to do with ” why are you bunting there…. why are you pulling Beachy NOW? why are pinch hitting lugo instead of Brooks….?” None of these things make sense! WHY IS PROCTOR STILL ON THE TEAM?

NickB

August 10th, 2011
12:40 am

How great was Constanza today eh? weak fly balls thats how great and he got a walk that a pitcher would’ve gotten all 4 pitches were so bad……

What baffles me, I mean truly baffles me, is how people are suckered in by speed. There are people who actually wanted us to trade for Juan Pierre on this board!!!! He’s not a good player. He’s pretty much replacement level…. ” oh but he’s fast and speed never slumps…” yes it does, speed slumps when it’s not on base, it slumps when it can’t be taken advantage of in the field, it slump when it only makes short trips to first base……

i don’t even know why i argue here…. I bet you people think 3 singles is better than a double and 2 walks!!! (all things being equal) it really is. It’s one total base more and in the grand scheme of the game, that’s a lot.

BTW, Joseph, do you think Bill James is an idiot and has bamboozled EVERY TEAM IN BASEBALL with his mythical statistics and projections? Is it more egotistical to embrace a new idea than it is to just scream “burn the witch!!” and dismiss it? It’s not all stats btw, I have been watching and playing this game since I was 5 years old (well played seriously until i was 19) I used to not “get” the new stats either, but guess what, they are better. To ignore them is to be content with bringing a knife to a gun fight…. It literally makes NO SENSE!!!

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
12:45 am

Nick, stop blaming Fredi for Proctor being on the team. Fredi didn’t sign him. Nor did he call him up instead of letting him become a free-agent. He is on the team and lately has used Proctor properly while he has had him on the team. In my opinion Beachy should have been pulled with runner @ 2nd with 1 out, but the bullpen wasn’t ready, and no reason to get them up, because Beachy was dealing. In hindsight sure have someone up like Sherrill just in case, but that is our luxury is to have hindsight.

Constanza isn’t a good defender? Did I miss an error? When has he misplayed a ball in either of the 3 outfield positions? A fast guy hitting singles with a pitcher (other than Beachy) bunting him into scoring position or letting him steal is a bad thing? Small ball is back in case you didn’t notice. A fast guy that turned a single into a double scored on a bloop single. Constanza can’t do that so let’s not play him. He went 0-5 tonight after an 8 game hit streak. Freeman went 0fer also. Heyward is the future, but today, this second Constanza is performing better.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
12:47 am

btw, I don’t subscribe to baseball prospectus or spend my day comparing WOBA to WPA or anything like that. I view the new stats as just a better tool at my disposal to use when comparing and contrasting players. Most of my observations rely on the power of OBP and SLG and not giving up outs…. That’s it…. I think fredi gives up to many outs and makes poor pitching and pinch hitting decisions

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
12:50 am

NIck, Constanza for the month of August is batting 0.480 with 1 triple, 1HR, and 4 RBI.

Heyward is batting for the same time period 0.200 with 1 HR and 1 RBI. How is Constanza not deserve to play?

Did Bill James manage a team in the majors?

NickB

August 10th, 2011
12:54 am

small ball is not an efficient way of scoring runs. Not in the manner you prescribe. The great Cardinals teams under Whitey Herzog in the 80’s played small ball. But they also led the league in OBP and the bunted for hits and drove in runners with doubles and triples. They didn’t automatically sac bunt 14 times a game…… If you look at the history of the best offensive teams, the got on base and they hit for power.
If you had a team with 8 Bourn’s Denard Spans and Carl Crawfords (before this season) and I faced you with a team that had the Yankees lineup. If the pitching is equal my team would crush your team over the long haul. If we were in the same division you would probably finish 3rd or 4th if you were lucky. because lots of singles just don’t score runs the way a walk a single and a HR does….. it’s a game of total bases. he who has the most total bases, tends to score the most runs…. THAT’S baseball. Sure it can be frustrating at times to watch… cuz not everytime is the big hit going to happen. But if you bunt and steal too much, you run yourself out of innings, get more double plays on line drives caught and can’t get any sort of offensive production.

There’s a reason that Stan Musial is a better player than Rickey Henderson

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
12:55 am

Nick, OBP and SLG have been around since before saber was begun. Saber incorporated it into their numbers. Although I would contend that OPS is more acurate than slugging, because SLG merely measures power. The bunt attempt by Gonzo was wrong, but to call him stupid for it is over the top. I am sorry, Nick but speed kills. It is shown time and again. The game is reverting back to a speed game and away from the 60HR game of the steroid era.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
12:58 am

Heyward has a .971 OPS over his last 7 games. He was performing great. batting avg is worthless, told ya that before. Constanza would make a great 4th OF’er, pinch runner , and a better PH option then say Lugo, but his bad defense (seriously how many bad routes have you seen him take? i’ve seen at least 5 in 11 games, not to mention that ball he totally gimped that led to a triple the other day) I’ve seen Heyward make maybe 10 in two years. BTW, this is the only site i go to that praises the Constanza starts…. And they aren’t sabr sites. They are fans who realize that you don’t sit a power hitting monster who strikes fear into pitchers regardless of his recent probs , to play a career AAAA guy with no power , no arm and no glove. But hey, “he’s got spark!”

btw, kudos on prado for breaking out tonite. He had his first great game in awhile, Heyward did that the other nite and got benched…. Prado might be next! lol

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
12:59 am

Nick you are comparing 2 totally different players. That is like comparing Bo Jackson to Otis Nixon. Neither even played the same position

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
1:00 am

Here is a stat that matters…the only stat. 68-49.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:04 am

Nick the problem I have with you “numbers” is that you use them to predict what a player will do. Look Constanza is performing, while Heyward is struggling and having his head on straight during it. Heyward has even said he needs to work. And he is. But right this second, Constanza gives the team a better chance to win this game. Heyward isn’t scaring anybody right now. I wish he was. He has all the talent in the world, but he isn’t. This is becoming a dead-horse issue. It is time to move on Nick. Tip of the cap sir.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:05 am

Dang it Rowsdower do not ruin this with logic lol.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
1:09 am

I always do that. My bad.

All I hear is, “Fredi should’ve taken the pitcher out earlier…” or, like tonight, “Fredi should’ve left Beachy in longer…” Then there’s, “Why is Heyward on the bench?” Then he proceeds to get snuffed as a baserunner with no outs in the 11th. Oh, I love this one, “Why is Alex Gonzalez playing when he can’t hit?”

It’s amazing we have the 4th best record in baseball and a 4.5 game lead with the worst manager in the history of baseball…

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:09 am

(yes I know they predate sabr, this has nothing to do with sabr, this has to do with quality fundamental baseball decisions)
Speed is good ONLY if it is ancillary to other skills. example:

Player A career numbers .290/.339/.471 .810 154 steals
Player B career numbers .279/.401/.419 , 1406 steals
Player C career numbers .264/.324/.345 668 OPS, 752 career steals

as far as hitting the ball tA and B players are pretty much equal. what separates them is their speed. In this manner, speed is definitely preferable. But if you take player A and compare him to Player C you find that player C doesn’t hold up. All he did was steal bases, he wasn’t really good for much else.

Player A is Dave Parker, B is Rickey henderson and C is Vince Coleman

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:11 am

Rowsdower, he isn’t the worst in history, but I bet he’s cost us 3 wins this year.

and as far as logic goes, wouldn’t you like it if we had 3 or 5 more wins? Cuz we probably should. That would put us in an even better position would it not?

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:14 am

btw, of course I can compare different playes! they all play the same sport, they all hit against the same pitchers. This isn’t football where you can’t compare RB’s with QB’s or WR’s!!! I’m not talking defense here, I’m talking hitting. Good hitters hit. If Ichiro was a better hitter he would hit more HR’s and bat lower in the order. He bats there because he doesn’t do much but hit singles, which is fine, we have one of those too in Bourn. But you have too many of those in your lineup, and you aren’t going to maximize your chances to succeed.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:15 am

Nick, every single team in the league can make that same claim. If only we had done this in this situation things would have been different. That is the product of hindsight. Life is easy in hindsight.

Rowsdower, you forgot that Chipper should retire by 1:30AM. I’m just trying to help you out here.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:17 am

NIck not when you say a person is a lesser defensive player. Each defensive position has it’s own duties and roles, as does every spot in the batting order has different roles.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:17 am

Rowsdower, I havn’t heard a logical thing come out of yer PC yet….. You just spout slogans and things that have nothing to do with the topic at hand. In other words, you are just saying populist jargon for the simpleminded

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:19 am

I don’t want Chipper to retire. I was all for keeping Alex in the lineup. I’m all for keeping Heyward in the lineup against righties. I think Constanza should play against lefties right now and I think he should play when Chipper sits. But I don’t think that he should take PA’s from Heyward cuz it’s poor baseball…..

Oh and don’t come down on me too dang hard. It’s not like I’m saying trae McCann cuz Ross’s defense is sublime and his offense is just as good like some dim bulb did last week!!!!! :-)

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:19 am

Nick, he is being a wise-rear-end. He is poking fun. We were having a nice friendly debate, easy with the defensive stuff. Rowsdower has made several solid points, not on this thread with me and you, but you are wrong with the criticism there sir.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:20 am

Constanzas minor league defensive numbers are mediocre at best. Heywards mlb defensive numbers have him in the top 10 in baseball….. I don’t believe everything about each individual metric either, but if THEY ALL say someone is really good, I tend to buy into it.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:21 am

I’m not defensive I’m offensive!! If someone comes after me ,i get on the attack! plus I’m on my 3rd brandy and ginger……….hiccup

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:23 am

I dunno, I think that many fans overrate speed. Cuz it’s a very flashy exciting thing to see! It truly is great to see Bourn and Constanza running the bases. However, a ferrari flashy and exciting too, but i’d rather have something a little more reliable as my daily driver…..

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:24 am

Im glad I missed that comment then Nick. I can see eventually it turning into a platoon with Heyward, but with a guy is on an 8 game hitting streak and still hitting 0.480avg/ 0.500obp/1.180ops for August is worth playing. Production doesn’t lie.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
1:24 am

You sure, Nick? You generalize, which is fine. Most people aren’t dedicated enough to read everything posted on these blogs.

I talk baseball, Nick. A sport I know intimately. As I have stated over and over, I understand metrics. I develop them as a Program Manager for Dell. I know their value and I appreciate them. I understand that controls are necessary to make any metric worthwhile. I also know that numbers can be manipulated to make any case. It’s a necessary evil in my business (particularly around end of year reviews ;)

Calling me simpleminded and implying that I don’t understand baseball is absolutely insane. 30 years of baseball experience and 10 years of analyst experience says otherwise. But, hey…what do I know?

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:29 am

I don’t possibly see how a metric for computer programmers could match up with baseball tho. The most reliable baseball numbers are based off of actual things like where they hit the ball, how many pitches they took ,righty or lefty faced, ballpark…blah blah blah all quantifiable facts.
Now I’m not being a jerk here so hear me out… I’ve never worked in the computer bidness, but it seems like you would have to deal with controls and assumptions more ….. Most baseball metrics are just an algorithm of facts…. It takes the data we see and quantifies it all and puts it together to make it easier to digest. There are no controls in babip it’s a real number based on actual performance. (WAR and WPA i get that argument and I’m not 100% on those 2 either) but stuff like wOBA and FIPx are real numbers too….. it isn’t like some managerial oversight based chart … these are real numbers

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:29 am

Speed game is coming back. You can point to the Yankees and Sox all you want with power, but I will counter with pointing out the bandbox that they play in. And the ridiculous DH rule as well. I see baseball heading back to the days of yore, while still keeping decent power numbers, but guys like Lou Brock and Hurricane are coming again. It is a pendulum, and it is swinging back to speed.

Will Constanza be on this team next year? I have no clue. Look at this team’s current 40 man roster and you will see there are several guys that will have to either be traded or something has to happen. It is going to be a real interesting off-season for Wren. I am talking both with the hitters and the pitchers we have. But we can save that one for a later time my friend.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:33 am

@rowsdower, well what do expect me to say? many people treat me like an anathema on here because i talk about “them fancy egghead stats” I was as nice as i could be and presented my case and consistently got rebuffed and dismissed . It becomes a little annoying after awhile.

I have been watching the game for 34 years (and a funny fact , my first braves game I went to was the one they broke Pete Roses hit streak!) I played it until i blew my shoulder out in HS…( I threw really really hard, was scouted…blah blah blah, there went that right) But it’s a game I know. I know it the old fashioned way and I was once a rebuffer of modern stats too. But after reading more about them I had to come to the decision that they were right…. Now , my other hobby is reading about astro-physics, so maybe I’m wired to be more into complex number systems….. but I’m not a bad guy…. I get frustrated when I get treated like a satanist on a catholic forum tho!!! :-p

hold on, makin another brandy

acbwcmm

August 10th, 2011
1:33 am

Every time I read the comments on this blog there are people insulting each other. Why is someone an idiot if they disagree with you? People have different opinions and perceptions. We’re all Braves fans here, though.

What it boils down to is that Fredi Gonzalez is wildly inconsistent. If he were consistent in his decisions, people would be less likely to doubt him constantly. The fact is, no one really knows what he is going to do any given day. I don’t think HE knows what he is going to do until he does it.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:35 am

Nick profit margins are based on, while different number systems, metrics and algorithms. Production quotients and cost/effect are treated the same way. I own my own construction company so, yes I use those quotients daily. Rowsdower is right. Like I have said, the problem I have with saber is the notion of projecting future performance. It is common sports knowledge, no matter what sport it is, to go with the guy that is playing the best THAT DAY. And this day, it is Constanza. Next week, it might not be, but TODAY it is.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
1:36 am

Nick, I don’t think your a jerk. You’re just passionate about metrics. I think they are a tool to be used, but they are not the end all. That doesn’t make me a jerk either.

Metrics are measurements of performance. It doesn’t matter if its baseball, computers or my ability to crush everyone at Words. The metrics I develop for Dell Tech Support are real numbers too. They are not based on assumption. They’re based on performance. If an agent doesn’t perform, it will show up in the metrics. If an agent is gaming to improve a metric the controls will bear that out.

Heyward is a HUGE part of this franchises future. Yes, it sux he isn’t playing right now. It’s August. He hasn’t made the necessary adjustments. Then he started to loaf. He almost got Uggla hurt by taking his sweet ass time on a pop to RF. He’s started 1 game since. Even an uber-talent like Heyward has to earn his seat at the table. He was handed it and he lost it. He will be back…no doubt.

Constanza is nothing more than a 4th or 5th OF. Right now he is playing out of his mind and is contributing to a team in contention for the playoffs. That carries weight. It is not a slight against Heyward. It is not costing the Braves games. It is doing whatever it takes to get this team where it should be…the playoffs.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:36 am

The speed game was never here Joseph!!! if you mean the game prior to the roids era, well yes that’s coming back. It’s basically the same game just less scoring. I don’t seem to recall any era of baseball where the game was a speed game. it’s ALWAYS been a power game. Even during the dead ball era when there were few HR’s cuz many parks had no outfield walls or had fans on the field. It was a game of doubles and triples then. Speed is a great tool , but only when it comes along on the journey with the better tools of power on base and defense…. Speed on it’s own is Juan Pierre, a bad ball player.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:39 am

Nick, with all due respect sir. I think the reason you feel that some treat you as you have stated is that at times, very rarely, (most of the time it is aggression/defensive) when you are talking about saber, you come across as arrogant and the perception of “I know more because I know more numbers”. Most saber people I know are that way. If you do not bow down to the alter of saber then you are a moron is the generalized blanket of that community. And for a lot of them it is justified. I guess it is arrogance really that comes across from saber communities, maybe.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
1:41 am

@acbwcmm – You’re right. He had every intention of giving Kimbrel the night off, but when Buck ran into a pitch, that all changed. Managing a baseball team isn’t a script. It is doing anything and everything to win the game. Fredi has done a pretty good job at that.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:44 am

Ricky Henderson as you alluded to earlier wasn’t a power game. He was speed. He changed games because of his speed. Speed changes how a pitcher pitches and how a defense fields and their positioning.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:45 am

Like i said Heyward .971 last 7 games… thats pretty much what Constanza did, but with Heyward you have more of an idea it can be repeated.

I disagree that metrics can be used to predict better than counting stats (and that’s all the argument is, not that they are perfect, but that they are better). Of course there will be deviations, of course no player hits .302/.345/.450 every single year. But as any person who works with numbers knows, the greater the sample size the more the numbers deviate towards the mean. They give you a BETTER way of determining what you can EXPECT their production to be. A stat like bABIP is there to determine why things deviated. if a player struggles (or excels) above his normal numbers one season, you can look at his bABIP and say “hmmm, his avg is .291, last year he struggled, but it was .241…. that’s probably an anomaly” or the opposite” hey he killed it , should we trade for him? well his avg babip is .291, and that year it was .341!! nope, anomaly”

Players are what they are, now sometimes it takes longer for them to get there (see Upton, Winfield, maybe Heyward don’t know yet) but someone with Heywards talent to get on base just doesn’t stop being good….. Frenchy had a track record in the minors you could see was problematic. he swung too much, he missed too much and he didn’t walk nearly enough. i mean honestly, a minor leaguer who walks too much is bound to be a star in MLB… it’s a league where patience at the plate reigns supreme. Heyward, when he’s right, has this. The past week or so, he was taking walks again, and that’s when Fredi benched him and it’s driven me bonkers ever since

gonna go have a smoke, brb

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:45 am

Has there been any word on how Linebrink’s back is doing?

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
1:49 am

Nick go rewatch Heyward’s interview with JJ tonight. Look at his eyes and listen to his exact words. He is working, so while he is working you play the guy that has been getting the job done on the field and let the kid work. He is going to be a star, but he is learning how to play with some pain and how to fight through his first ever struggle in baseball in his life.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
1:57 am

Heyward was hitting though….. ahh to hell with it, y’alls mancrush on Constanza has taken over

acbwcmm

August 10th, 2011
2:01 am

@Rowsdower – I was referring to his lineup selection and the argument of whether or not Heyward should play. Lineups actually are kind of like a script. Either way, his decisions regarding the bullpen can be pretty random and agonizing at times. Tonight is not one of those nights. Varvero has been great since being called up and seemed like a good choice there. Like you said, sometimes things change.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
2:02 am

I have a mancrush on 2 things right now. My Jack in the Box and anyone that helps this team win.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
2:05 am

@acbwcmm

I would’ve agreed with you had Beachy struggled with the batter he got out. But he didn’t Not to mention there was a righty up next . Varvaro’s problem is he does 3 things and only one of them is good. Yer either getting struck out, walked or getting a hit…. He walks a ton of guys and K’s a ton of guys, but he doesn’t get many easy outs on batted balls. they tend to be driven well…. It’s not too bad to start an inning. But i don’t bring a guy who walks that many people into a situation with 2 men on base. Not when the starter is the same hand as the incoming batter. It’s not like Beachy was throwing 88 all of a sudden.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
2:06 am

Rowsdower….Jack in the Box? easy my friend. This is a G rated site lol. Actually I haven’t been to a good Jack in the Box in years. Dang now you are making me hungry.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
2:06 am

Like I said, he doesn’t help this team win. He keeps a better player from helping the team win.

Joseph

August 10th, 2011
2:09 am

Nick Beachy got 2 outs. Pettersen (or however you spell his name) was the last he faced. Every pitch was up to him. Luckily it was popped-up to Ross in foul ground though. I think Beachy should have been pulled with 1 out and runner @ 2nd but nobody was ready at that time.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
2:17 am

If yer gonna bring him out for the 7th then you HAVE to have someone warming up. he’s a young kid and sometimes it can go south in a hurry. I agree, he should’ve pulled him once there was one out man at 2nd. But he didn’t. Once Fredi got to that point and Beachy got the 2nd out, he should’ve let the kid have his chance to get out of the inning.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
2:21 am

I don’t care if we’re winning in spite of anyone, we are a W away from having a .667 record over the last 16. I can’t hate on that. When this stretch started I wanted to see .750 ball against these dregs. Pretty damn close. I have the utmost confidence that Huddy will deliver yet another W against the Marlins.

Most people are concerned that JJ and Tommy are getting MRIs and are having health issues. I say, it’s about damn time these guys were disabled. When there is regression it is a steady decline. When there is sharp decline, its an injury. Pitching and playing baseball for 30 years tells me that, not numbers.

That is the biggest concern I have with this staff. How the hell could they not see that JJ and Tommy weren’t able to locate pitches? Great pitchers don’t lose it all together in a few days. They BOTH did. It took them a month to realize it. They will both be back healthy in a few weeks and ready to roll down the stretch.

When this team has a healthy JJ, Tommy, Mac and Moylan back, they are going to be scary good. I would go to battle with this team, when healthy, against anyone. And the best part is…it only gets better in the years to come.

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
2:23 am

Managers are guilty of “not allowing a pitcher to lose the game.” Beachy pitched a great game and deserved a better fate. Fredi pulled him with the tying run in the batter’s box. I would’ve liked to see him get the chance to get out of it, but its not like Varvaro has been chum. He’s done a fine job since coming up. Buck ran into a pitch. What are you gonna do?

NickB

August 10th, 2011
2:30 am

I was worried about Hanson weeks ago due to his drop in MPH. He’s a guy who uses his power FB and breaking pitches combined to get K’s he doesn’t pitch to contact.
JJ , I figured was just not as sharp as he should be. That can happen to young contact pitchers from time to time (heck even Maddux had his off couple of weeks here and there) i was suprised to find out he was hurt.

NickB

August 10th, 2011
2:33 am

varvaro has been …ok, he still walks too many guys for my taste. He looks like a raw potential closer type. like Marmol with less MPH. Kinda like the pitching equivalent of Adam Dunn. It’s gonna be either a K or a BB…. However, that being said, I think the experience of getting shelled a few times might be good for him. Maybe teach him to try and trust his stuff a bit more and stop trying to nitpick. Boy…. nothing bugs me more than a power arm that nibbles…. nibbling is for the Maddux, Glavine and jurrjens of the world. If you can throw 95+ fling it up there!!!

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
2:48 am

I agree, Nick. I threw pretty damn hard before my 3 shoulder surgeries, but I didn’t throw high 90s. If I did, I would’ve just trusted my stuff and aimed for the outer 1/3. Now, at 37, I throw mid 80s, but I know how to pitch. If I only knew then what I know now…

NickB

August 10th, 2011
4:03 am

the funny thing is, deep down in my heart, I still think i can hit 95 …. but hell, I’m 38 , i prolly can’t hit 85 !!! lol

Arkie

August 10th, 2011
6:41 am

Any one that saw Hanson pitch his last game could tell some thing was wrong. Do we have a pitching coach and manager?? To leave him pitching while he had very little ball movement, having to throw almost down the middle, giving up 4 homers in the process. If we have GM with balls, he would carefully look this over. Lets do not ruin a young pitcher. GM suspend your manager and pitching coach for 5 games. Get their attention. They have shown very little knowledge in managing and keeping pitchers healthy. Do they care?? Go Braves!!

Elmer

August 10th, 2011
7:41 am

Constanza reminds me of Willie Harris, a good outfielder but no a major league regular.

Dr. Phil

August 10th, 2011
8:01 am

Fredi, we love ya, man.

Tom

August 10th, 2011
8:11 am

NickB – Sounds like you had rather us play JasonH and lose than Constanza and win? Why? I still think AB’s at Gwinnett would do him more good than being on the bench in ATL, and yes I still think Jason is a terrific young man! But the speed of Bourn and Constanza has excited the fans and players too. Give our SS some love, that was a terrific double-play to end the game last nite!

FlyOnTheWall

August 10th, 2011
9:03 am

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
2:23 am

Buck ran into a pitch. What are you gonna do?
******************************************************
um why was he thrown a FB when we knew he was killing FBs…he should of been getting fed nothing but off speed stuff….who called for the FB?

Doc Holliday

August 10th, 2011
9:14 am

I need to know why is Julio Lugo coming in as PH as 1st option.

I need to know why is he still on this team, he should be released the same day Proctor is.

I dont see the smart people moaning about how SPEED won the game for us yesterday.

Since SPEED got to this team, it has won more than 5 games for us.

SPEED has kept Ugglas streak alive about 7 times (IF hits).

I would like to see this team with 6 players hitting above .290, I think it possible. (Bourn, Constanza, Mc, Freddie, Chipper and Martin; Chipper is 25 points away, but we all know he can get hot enough to do so). I have noticed that now that Uggla has surged as a power threat, Chipper has changed hit hitting approach, just trying to find the hole and get the bloop single. I like that. I rather see Mc and Uggla go for the HR and Martin and Freddie go for the 2B.

Jason proved again last night, he is not doing anything good this season. He is staying on the bench. I like it though, cause it will help him and we have HR threat on the bench. Speed on the bench. He has had his ABs, let him relax and regroup, I dont see Constanza taking ABs away from him, hurting, but helping a guy that might be pressing too much and that might have some sore shoulder. I think this is working in Jasons favor and that this month he will get out of his funk.

Fredi Supporter

August 10th, 2011
9:30 am

The comments that the Braves need to fire Fredi G are stupid and made by a complete moron. As of today, the Braves are 19 games over .500, which would put them in first place in every divisionin baseball except the AL East. Keep in mind that Fredi has guided this team, for the most part, with six spots in the line up that has betted all year under .250. This includes McLouth, Schafer, Heyward, Gonzales, Uggla, and the pitchers spot. Kudos to Fredi. Keep up the winning ways Braves.

Mike

August 10th, 2011
9:34 am

nick…don’t see how braves survived all those games Jason missed while out w/injury.
It’s a 162-game sked….players sit 2-3 games when they struggle ALL THE TIME. This is not a demotion; it’s finding a spot for a hot hitter. No one is suggesting Biff is a better player than Jason…he’s just hot right now. Managers play the hot hand all the time. It is called using your 25-man roster.

Kharma

August 10th, 2011
9:40 am

As for Mr Hanson, he has too much side to side movement in his pitching upper arm. He most likely is using his Pectoralis Major muscle to stop his Late Pitching Forearm Turnover. East to prevent.
Rest is never the answer.

I wish reporters would tell us whether the pain is coming from the front or back of the should and/or which of the four rotator cuff muscles is causing the discomfort. Then we could determine the flaw in his pitching motion…. And tell him how to fix it.

Kharma2301@yahoo.com

CRMAC300

August 10th, 2011
9:56 am

Any questions why Gonzo is still playing shortstop? That last inning double play he started was spectacular and it is unlikely that any other shortstop in the league makes that play. Now, he is starting to hit a little too, which is a bonus! Braves 19 games over .500 with all of the injuries to the pitching staff and to position players. Fans need to stop whining and appreciate the team’s effort, including the manager!

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
10:33 am

@FlyOnTheWall – Might wanna ask Rossy on that one. Varvaro has a very good fastball. He missed his spot and a very poor hitter got lucky. I don’t question the move. We got the W, though I would’ve preferred Kimbrel get the night off as was planned.

Jeff

August 10th, 2011
10:45 am

Dan Uggla must be taking steroids. He didn’t taking them the first half but he’s taking them now. Just look at his arms. Let’s be real now, how in the world can your arms get that big? STEROIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But I will tell you this, the real Uggla or the Steroids Uggla won’t hit Brian Wilson or Tim Lincecum!

Rowsdower

August 10th, 2011
10:49 am

Yes, Jeff, steroids made Uggla a better hitter in the 2nd half. You clearly have no concept of how steroids work.

You might wanna concern yourself with the D-Backs. You have to get to the playoffs before you start making plans to shutdown Uggla.

Tom

August 10th, 2011
10:58 am

JEFF – Hard work at the gym and food choices can give you big arms without STEROIDS. I know this for a fact!!! Visit a gym someday, who knows, maybe you just might like it? Now go back to work at the library!!

FlyOnTheWall

August 10th, 2011
11:13 am

It’s the spinich…everyone knows that….geez!

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