3:18 pm July 22, 2011, by Carroll Rogers
July 22nd, 20114:12 pm
Carlos Beltran is having a studly year. Mike Minor could have a long and productive career. I’m thinking he could win 12 to 15 games with regularity, once he learns the hitters. That’s huge, admittedly. However, what if Beltran comes over to the Braves and plays even better than he has this season for the Mets? We can’t count on that happening. In the pantheon of Braves mid-season trades, it hasn’t happened often (McGriff being one big exception), but I figure we’re due. I think we do lose some D with Beltran and not Schaefer in CF, but the bottom line for me would be: Do it. You’ve got everything lined up to make a deep run in the playoffs. It’s no time to be overly conservative. Gotta get another good seven- or eighth- inning reliever, too. That’s a must. Go Braves!
My head hurts. Make a deal for Beltran or Pence. Don’t care, just do it and put them in CF. Who cares if Pence hasn’t played in 4 yrs or if Beltran was hurt last year. 2 months in Centerfield, that’s it for either. We have a good team and a playoff team. We can be a World Series team this season. Ever get tired of playing it close to the vest?
Does Elvis Andrus, Perez, and Matt Harrison get us to the World Series?
Cinnamon in the chili? That Skyline crap is nasty.
July 22nd, 20114:13 pm
I dont like this. Yes, Beltran could have another great second half like he did for the Astros but at what cost? I say we go after Pence that way we dont have to see our players all the time. Also, I think we should go after Mike Adams.
That’s a good one. Why don’t the Cardinals just throw in Albert and pay his salary to make it fair…
July 22nd, 20114:14 pm
“On a cruise ship somewhere in the open ocean, Bobby Cox read that, hee-hawed loudly,and soiled his diaper”
My bad. No, I’m not foolish enough to think Cox can read.
So it shouldve said, “On a cruise ship somewhere in the open ocean, Mrs Cox read that to Bobby, and he hee-hawed loudly and soiled his diaper
I think if we’re going to give up as much as Minor than we’d better get something like BJ Upton in return, someone we’d control for a while and has the upside to improve. It’s crazy to give up Minor for a 2 month rental with the injury history that Beltran brings.
Wren needs to pull this off.
Bring back Matt Diaz.
That man can hit left handed pitching.
MF04:That was then this is now.50 years ago I could run 100yds.in less then 10 now I can still run a 100 in less than 10.Hours that is.
July 22nd, 20114:15 pm
I’d make a Minor for Beltran trade in a New York minute. If Chipper is healthy, lineup would be a beast with him in CF. if Chipper is not at full health, we can keep Schafer in CF and put him at LF. Worth the risk. And I still think we need a right-handed relief pitcher too b/c no guarantee Moylan will be effective.
No more stupid Wainright deals for Drew or the entire farms system for Tex.
July 22nd, 20114:16 pm
Hey, what about me?
BAMA Dude – Well, thanks for thinking of me for that tutorial, but I already knew that.
Yes, prospects are capital and we have only one chance to use them as such. Minor is obviously favored as a trade piece for many teams (several if that sounds too much). So yep, let’s trade him for a two month rental hoping we can get another WS shot for Chipper (who’s healthy return would help us much more than Beltran ever will). If he really has the value he appears to, I;d much rather use him for a chance at someone who gives us TWO OR THREE shots at that WS and not a hobbled two month rental who reallly fills no need we have.
Sorry guess that is Feliz not Perez.
I just don’t understand the short-term rental of players in baseball – no matter what short-term opportunities.
About the only thing I ever rent is a car. Renting a player is like going to Hertz or Avis, signing a contract that includes a rental fee based on time rented, and then putting down a credit card as a damage deposit – which I get back when I turn in the car. Thre problem is that we can’t turn the car back in and get our deposit back. If we do this deal, it’s almost like we are incurring the rental fee of Beltran’s salary, but losing the damage deposit of Minor. And if the car/Beltran breaks down, we can’t just take it back to the Mets and get a replacement. My bet is the car breaks down, we regret giving up the damage deposit, and we never rent from Hertz/Mets again.
The Braves darn near beat the eventual World Series champ with a washed up 1st baseman and a converted pitcher in centerfield.
Yes, Beltran would make a huge difference if he continues the season he’s having.
July 22nd, 20114:17 pm
Matt Diaz can hit left handed pitching.
Minor for Beltran is a deal only Omar Minaya would like…
Robert, you really should get some help for your CDS.
July 22nd, 20114:18 pm
Anybody check Pence’s road split?
His home OPS is 60bps higher for his career, 84 this year. Still not awful, but $10MM-12MM I’m not sure about.
This is a no brainer for me, I def pull the trigger on this one. Were trying to win a world series this year! There will be more Mike Minors come up through the system.
Look at the pitching on this team for years to come. Minor won’t be the only casualty of the wealth of pitching and the scarcity of spots.
The Braves probably need 2 outfielders moving foward and a shortstop.
I would not trade Minor for any rental player, including Beltran. A controlable player for next year and/or beyond would be ok.
July 22nd, 20114:20 pm
To me it comes down to whether management wants to make a wholehearted run at the WS THIS season.
Given our wealth of starting pitching I say do it. It’s tough to give up Minors but you’re getting a quality bat in return who can truly be a difference maker THIS season. You can’t get a guy like that without giving something pretty valuable.
IF management thinks we’ve got a shot at the WS THIS season, than do the deal. Outside of an injury in the rotation, Minors can’t do anything for you this year to get to the WS – Beltran can.
If they don’t, then don’t do it.
As for concerns about a potential rotation injury – even if there is one, we can always bring up Teheran to finish out the regular season if need be. Remember, in post-season we’ll probably go to a 4 man rotation and won’t need one of our SPs anyway.
Missing from this discussion is an evaluation of Mike Minor and his pitches. He doesn’t have a plus fastball, a plus breaking ball, a plus slider, or a plus anything. He also hasn’t shown command at any level or the mental makeup necessary to be a solid starter, much less an important part of the rotation. If he were still 19, maybe you live with this, but he’s not.
Beltran is a short-term rental, sure. He also gives the Braves a much better shot at the World Series this year than Minor does. Arguments welcomed.
And BJ Upton – that stellar .234 hitter with a barely better than what we have OBP who had a decent season back in 07 and 08 (sounds a bit like Nate, right?). Yep, count on that nebulous change of scenery thing again. It always works so well and let’s go give the Rays lots more of our prospects hoping he works out.
Sheesh yet again..
July 22nd, 2011
People can’t seem to face the fact that the Braves will not have a 10 man rotation in the future
Beachy, Minor, Teheran, Delgado, Viscaino, Hoover will not all end up on the Braves starting rotation. I bet about three or four of them will be traded or won’t be nearly as good as people are projecting them to be.
Minor for Beltran is a fair deal. If Minor turns out to be a star, more power to him. It’s the same with Jo Jo Reyes and Kyle Davies
No we understand this Mr. patronising. However, we dont understand trading these peieces for a 2 month injury riddled rental
July 22nd, 20114:21 pm
I hate trading anybody within the division. It can come back to bite your azz hard.
Tex deal? That deal is only stupid now, not at the time it was made, Andrus was blocked by Escobar, Feliz was the centerpiece, Salty was blocked by McCann, and is now in Boston stinking the place up, and Matt Harrison… well sometimes you just miss on a prospect. Atlanta needed a 1b with power and thought the College town discount could persuade Tex as well as the Georgia ties from his wife, no one could forsee the GREED factor with Tex. The Braves got excatly what they paid for a productive clean up hitter for currency.basically traded blocked spects , Andrus, Salty, along with Feliz(who needs him now? See Venters/Kimbrel) and Harrison for two needs at the time that just didn’t pan out! stop lamenting the Tex deal, it was actually good for both teams.
Eddie in bam
look at record before and after schafer’s call up, speaks for itself. Make beltran trade, plenty of playing time for heyward, schafer, beltran, and Marteen because Chipper is not a gaurantee.
July 22nd, 2011
BAMA Dude – Well, thanks for thinking of me for that tutorial, but I already knew that.
His OPS is over .900. Considering we have one (1) player at that level now, he is exactly what we need. Ever think that one of the benefits of getting him might be to allow Chipper to take his time with his knee and take a few days off here and there once he gets back? And you can’t seriously believe that Chipper at 38 improves the offense more than Beltran at 34.
July 22nd, 20114:22 pm
Beltran is a smoke screen. BJ Upton is our man.
July 22nd, 20114:24 pm
At the end of the day. If Beltrans body cant hack playign centre then this deal is a no go.
Pfish: One bat is not going to do it.We are going to sink or swim with our pitching.Now if we go after both Bourn and Pence,thats different,but very unlikely.
no offense to the author, but your readership sucks. the comments on this blog are retarded. /peace out
If you’re really going to go for a championship, why not go or a player who’s actually performed on a regular basis and who’s locked up for at least another year – even if it costs Delgado AND MInor or costs us a few more bucks next year?
The smart thing is to get Pence, Span or Marlon Byrd – any of which who ARE and have performed and would be with us for at least another one Championhip run up to another four.
Yes, the cost in prospects would be more and the cost in $$$ more, too 0 but it covers us going forward (and within the next year or so, lots of $$$$ come off the books) and gives a reasonable return on cost/benefit.
Ok so what if the braves don’t make the world series. Then they would have just traded away a good young pitching prospect for a 2 month rental player. You need to think about these things before you post.
Weezle, the only Upton I want raoming the atlanta outfield is Justin Upton and that aint happenin
July 22nd, 20114:25 pm
I would rather have Bourn even though he is left handed hitter, he is hitting .276 against lefties and .30l against righties, its his base stealing ability that I love. Give them Minor and Shafer.
July 22nd, 2011
At the end of the day. If Beltrans body cant hack playign centre then this deal is a no go.
No? How about he plays left until Chipper comes back, then we see where everything shakes out. It wouldn’t suck to have too many good hitters.
July 22nd, 20114:26 pm
We’re looking for a right hand bat and we’re going to give up WHAT for 2 months of a guy hitting .227 from the right side? This is Uggla-light, and will make the Tex deal look like genius!
@ Rupert: I am avaliable for trade. No good Japanese steak house in Jackson. Beltran kill braves in 05 playoffs.
Wookie…It’s pre-arranged, we’re trading Jurrjens for Justin Upton this offseason. It’s an Upton/Upton/Heyward outfield for the Braves.
Says the person who doesn’t know how to capitalize.
July 22nd, 20114:27 pm
Mike Minor for Carlos Beltran, and Mets take on Beltran’s entire salary or almost. And braves acquire a decent reliever
Calling Beltran a hobbled rental, well same can be said about Chipper, no guarantees with him, Moylan, Heyward, Prado…all have been on the DL, Chipper, Prado and Heyward a lot here lately.
WELL, MAD SEASON HAS BEGUN!
Another thought: I’ve been a big proponent of the Braves acquiring Chris Young, CF for the d-backs. With Stephen Drew out for the season, with that horrible injury, I think the dbacks just became sellers. They are not going to trade Justin Upton, but I think Young could be gotten, because the Dbacks are desperate for another starting pitcher, or two. Young has 17 HR, 52 RBI, 12 stolen bases, and an OPS of 800. He’s 27, and makes 1.7 mil LESS than what Pence makes.
Oh, and he’s an absolutely fabulous defender. Just sayin’….
I would be ok with the move but i would prefer to trade Minor and another very good prospect(not Julio,Vizcaino or Delgado) to San Diego for Adams or Bell AND Cameron Maybin. It would help us in both areas of need. Maybin is not as good a hitter as Beltran but he is great defensively – as us Braves fans saw last year and has great speed and a little punch from the Right side. Bell or Adams would keep O’Ventbrel fresher for Sept/OCT.
I mostly want Pence though, I would completely be happy with FW if he got Pence.
ProfFish He doesn’t have a plus fastball, a plus breaking ball, a plus slider, or a plus anything.
plus changeup? i thought he had one of those. his command is supposed to be very good to, and he K’s a slew of batters. lets not go overboard on minor. a mid-rotation MLB stater is a good player. if thats what minor is, and he is just beginning his career, he will be a pretty good player for awhile.
July 22nd, 20114:28 pm
Ralph – why throw in Schafer? All they are likely to want is Minors. From what I read they may even throw in some cash for the rest of the season.
Lew, I refer you to my 4:18 regarding Pence. He’s a sub .800 OPS guy away from his bandbox and will get in excess of $10MM next year. You want to trade Minor plus a superior prospect for him?
I say upgrade SS which is the most glaring hole, and leave the OF alone.
jayee I’ve been a big proponent of the Braves acquiring Chris Young, CF for the d-backs.
i really like young, if they’re selling.
July 22nd, 20114:29 pm
Personally, I think the Braves should be looking for a right handed hitting 3B! Does anyone really believe Chipper will come back 100%? He might be the face of the team but he’s been a liability for the last 5 years. We can’t expect him to remain healthy enough to be a force in the middle of our line-up. Prado does fine in LF right now.
July 22nd, 20114:30 pm
Sign me up, Tomas.
wookie ninja I say upgrade SS which is the most glaring hole, and leave the OF alone.
im with you, but what player could we get? i dont really think there is a clear upgrade available.
P-Town Brave ©
Long time away from the blog for this guy, but I thought I’d weigh in on this trade deadline thing….
Ok, so we look at it this way….we have Minor, Teheran, and Delgado who have all made starts at the big league level this year….thing is, IF Minor were the stud some think he is, he would’ve been up here for the season and not the guy who wasnt drafted by any single one of the 30 teams…
When you look at it, we have Hudson, Hanson, and Jurrjens seemingly as locks for the rotation in 2012….so that leaves 2 slots…
Even IF we figure out how to trade Lowe and get him off the books, you still have Beachy, Medlen coming back from injury to consider, and then the 3 I mentioned right there and ready…AND you have Vizcaino who is getting closer as well….
The only other certainty there is on this team is that the few good position players will be back and that Nate McLouth’s option is as dead as Jimmy Hoffa…
There is absolutely ZERO certainty that Chipper comes back and comes back able to hit…recall, he was hitting .250 w/ little power when he went on the shelf…so the team really can’t and shouldn’t be relying on him!
The team desperately needs a bat, AND why not Beltran? The guy is very clutch and is having an outstanding season….so who cares if we give up a guy that no one truly knows if he’d be in the plans for next year….if you do the math, someone has to be the odd person out, and its at least a 50/50 chance that Minor would be out….
The real question isn’t about losing Minor or gaining Beltran, its whether there is belief that the team is just that 1 piece away from catapulting themselves into and winning the World Series…
IF the Braves make the play and come through w/ Beltran, it may cause the Phillies to try and up the effort for Pence….which actually helps the Braves as that would lead the Phils to go for broke trying to up the Braves…
Do the Braves need to make the charge and get the bat needed? YES
Are there more than 2-3 guys out there that would make a big difference? NO
I say get it done!
Whew…sorry guys….felt like I was channeling N8 there
Bama Dude – Believe it? Hell yes I do. The team always plays better when Chipper plays – and what do you do if Beltran gets hurt yet again? He sure has the past few years – 184 missed games – ONE HUNDRED EIGHTY FOUR Missed games since the beginning of 09.
Yes, he hits for power against LHP – WHEN he actually makes contact which, with a .291 OBP against LHP isn’t all that often (think Nate, here, or Schafer).
And I want Chipper AND someone reliable in there. When Chipper comes back, where do you play Beltran? Sure as hell not center – even the Mets realized that would end his season abruptly.
Because I believe FW is pretty sharp, I wonder what teams the other 5 scouts represented. Hopefully, they represent teams that aren’t offering rentals…
Lowe for Drew Stubbs anyone?
July 22nd, 20114:31 pm
Lew, I’d do it too, the Mets are paying the balance of the salary and the part about injuries and one step away from retirement is nothing but hyperbole.
Can’t understand people’s hesitation with pulling a Minor for Beltran trade? Minor is a fine prospect but he’s no Adam Wainwright. Beltran leads league in doubles. His in top 10 in OPS & RBI’s. But the bigger reason for me is his OPS in post-season is 1.302 which is higher than Babe Ruth’s. Doesn’t mean he will be clutch but more likely than not. Think of guys who have risen to occasion in post season in past who did it year and year out – i.e Reggie Jackson,. These guys walk to the plate believing they are gonna coem through because they have before.
You mentioned why not trade for Pence, Span, or Byrd. While I do think that Pence would provide more value for the Braves, I don’t think he’d provide more value in 2011, and the difference in the value he would provide over the next 2 years is equal to a whole lot less than Randall Delgado, which is likely what would have to be added to whatever the Mets require for Beltran. As for Span and Byrd, I don’t think that either is as much of an upgrade as Beltran is, and both carry a fair amount of risk with them in future years. While a rental player isn’t ideal, at least the team is aware of the cost of that rental, so if he regresses in future years they are not on the hook for anything but the next 2 months.
Steve from OH
Lew–fine, you want a long-term answer in CF? Call St. Louis and write a blank check for Rasmus. He’s your man.
I am absolutely against Pence.
July 22nd, 20114:32 pm
Oh, and one other thing……speaking in terms of health issues, is it just me, or has Heyward’s health issues starting to concern anyone else? The kid’s 21 but plays like he’s Chipper’s age.
I like Chris Young too. But not for any top tier pitching prospects. I also have always been intrigued by Dextor Fowler. Wonder if Rockies make him available?
July 22nd, 2011
How dare you! You know that numbers don’t tell the story. For instance, Schafer is better than McLouth because my perception says so. It doesn’t matter what the numbers say these players have actually done. All that matters is my perception of what they’ve done. How dare you use objective data instead of your own perceptions!
Shaun Aka Tim Kurkjian, aka “The Professor”- The astute baseball folk here factor not only statistics but what the particular player brings to the field with intangibles- attitude, defensive abilities, abilities to hit in the clutch(yes clutch situations Professor). Don’t have to pour over Stat sheets for days to see a guy like Beltran help teams win.
Go back to pouring over your data Professor.
In the clutch is exactly what he was saying. Its gut feeling. Which is irrelevent. Anyway check Nates stats with risp vs schafer. Nate is clutch
on another note, thank god they called up martinez.
Pence is 0-4 today – get him while his stock is down!
Lew, what if Beltran plays LF, they leave Schafer in CF, Heyward in RF, and move Prado over to SS?
Prado is a damn good athlete, and could probably play a decent ss
Schafer and Minor for Bourn. Bethancourt for Gomes.
And yes, I;d give up that package for this year and two more of Pence well before I’d give up MInor for a hobbled, chronically injured player who can’t play the position we need him to play and will only have for two months.
Watch your comments.
July 22nd, 20114:33 pm
There is nothing wrong with a rental, as long as the price you pay is appropriate for a rental. I’d rather pay market value for a 2-month rental than overpay for a 1-year and 2-month player.
“beezle”*, that is
DOB, if you we’re Wren would you make the deal Minor for Beltran?
Wookie – I love Martin’s extreme versatility, but Gonzalez makes Uggla and Chipper much better and Martin has played SS two games – one in the minors and one at the MLB level.
Beltran? Minor? Yawn.
Hard to believe you guys are this wired up about either.
July 22nd, 20114:34 pm
this would work perfectly if prado could play shortstop..hint hint
i know thatd be asking the world of him, but hey..he took the LF move with grace, and he wants to be an infielder..but as we all know at some point hell be back at third. do it
Its just too bad Prado cant really play SS halfway decent….
Because then even if Chipper came back, you could keep Beltran in LF (if obtained) and move Prado to SS….
I agree w/ many….Alex is absolutely killing us at the plate…
But then again, we now have 4 of the 8 regulars hitting I believe under .230 w/ Schafer just above that…just atrocious w/ the batting averages…
The Braves have been pretty consistant when it comes to trading away pitchers that weren’t as good as what they had in the pipeline or could trade for. Wainwright is the big exception along with to an extent Neftali Perez, Marquis and maybe someday Charlie Morton. Gotta believe that if this deal does happen, the Braves think Minor won’t make this rotation going forward. Maybe nothing lost here. Still hate the thought of Beltran going to the Phillies so maybe that calms the acid reflux a bit. Maybe Pence or Rasmus is the right guy to go after. Just think the Astros don’t really want to alienate the fan base letting him go.
“The smart thing is to get Pence, Span or Marlon Byrd ”
Byrd is a VERY average player. Same with Span
I have nothing against trading Delgado – but not for mediocrities like Span and Byrd
Tough call. One good thing about Beltran being in the division is that he’s seen a lot of the Phils staff. That could be huge in those last 2 series. My only concerns would be the injury history and the lasting image of him taking strike 3 in the biggest at bat of his life.
July 22nd, 20114:35 pm
hobbled, chronically injured player who can’t play the position we need him to play and will only have for two months.
So you complain that he can’t stay healthy, and then complain that we don’t have him for long enough? I think the fact that we are only going to have him for two months is a PLUS, because he’s been unreliable in the past due to injuries. Less time = less risk.
That comment reminded me of the joke about the old lady complaining about the new resturant: “This food is terrible! And such small portions!”
To heighten the missed game argument as it pertains to Beltran, our very own Chipper Jones has missed 238 games in the same period.
one thing to keep in mind….once beltran is gone, they’ll be the same non-lefty hitting group they are now…and they’d still have to face minor, hamels, lee, et al
P-town – good point on Minor “not” grabbing the 5th spot when he had the chance.
I agree with all you’ve said, just in fewer words!
I’d like to see them pull the trigger on this sooner than later – if the Wilpons are ready we should do it.
Best of luck to Minors, he’s been fun to watch and I hope he proves all us would-be GM’s wrong!
JoeBrave: I understand your reluctance to trade Minor for a three-month rental, but it’s going to take at least that much to get Beltran because of how many other teams want him. No way Mets trade him for less than Minor. And because Braves have such an unusual stockpile of pitching prospects, including at least two rated well ahead of Minor (Delgado might be, too), then they might decide it’s worth it to get an impact bat like Beltran.
They’d not trade a potential top-of-rotation pitcher like Teheran, Vizcaino or — I don’t think — Delgado for a short-fix rental player, but they might do Minor, or at least think long and hard about it.
And signing Delgado long-term is almost certainly going to be too pricey and risky, given his injury history. Braves would only be getting him for this year, thinking he could be the missing piece to put them over the top.
Schafer is NOT the future. I think the Braves know that, but they’re acting like they’re high on him to raise his stock some. Idk how much just saying they like a player would raise said player’s stock, seeing as how there are talent evaluators for that, but you never know. I bet the Braves get Gomes and Bourn.
July 22nd, 20114:36 pm
Beltran’s OBP vs. lefties is over .360 for his career. He finished at or above his career average in that category in 2008, 2009, and 2010. Yes, let’s look at 100PA vs. lefties this season to determine his worth. That’s logical.
I would not trade minor for Beltran maybe for the guy from the White Sox who has 19 homers and kills lefthand pitching.
Looks like “The Professor” for Shaun stuck.
Lets see Heyward, Mcclouth, Prado, Schafer, Hiensky, Beltran, maybe its about to become softball with four outfielders. Go get piching (relief) unless its a long term situation like an Upton or Maybe Bourne if we can afford him. Minor made it to the bigs pretty darn quick to suck, and he is the only lefty starter on the horizon , mmmmmmmand lets not forget you cannot even wash that nasty butt met smell off of Bellytran!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Something people dont realize is that more than a handful of Beltran’s doubles at Citi Field would even be homers at the spacious Turner Field.
July 22nd, 20114:37 pm
So we’ve got holes at 3b, ss, cf and middle relief. This ought to be good.
Make the Deal Now!!! Beltran becoming a Philly or Giant stings us in a big way. He’s proven to be a clutch postseason player, and he puts this team on another level. He’s going somewhere, that’s for sure, let’s get him in the ATL.!!!
I wouldn’t mind faceing Minor 2 times a year for years to come so long as I had Bourn leading off everyday for years to come.
BEACHY and McLOUTH for BELTRAN
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