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267 comments Add your comment
Terry Pendleton
April 14th, 2011
2:07 pm
Funny, I thought that things were supposed to get better the second I was replaced as hitting coach? Maybe I wasn’t the problem after all…
DAM
April 14th, 2011
2:07 pm
“Anyone who still thinks Heyward is batting in the wrong spot is illiterate and brain dead. Let Booby Cox’s style of managing end or you will never be happy. The reason Heyward is batting 6 is because the almighty scouting report uses logic instead of bonehead gut regurgitation. Heyward can’t hit three run homers in the no 2 spot.”
So anyone who thinks it’s a choice between either 2nd or 6th and nowhere else in the lineup must be only slightly better than brain dead. The problem here is that this debate is based on 2 outcomes that are both the wrong answer. Heyward is clearly a #3 or #4 hitter. The underlying problem in all of this is that Chipper is not going to be moved in the order to allow Heyward to hit 3rd where he should be.
Curse of Brett Butler
April 14th, 2011
2:08 pm
If AG is at fault for having more homeruns combined than any other Brave last year then Escobar is to blame because if he wasn’t such a head case, the Braves wouldn’t had to get a player like AG
chris
April 14th, 2011
2:08 pm
talking about scouting. yes, the braves do not emphasize on scouting and watching video on opposing hitters. hitting mechanics yes, but cox and JS always used the method of using the same approach for any opposing hitter.
Farnsworthy
April 14th, 2011
2:08 pm
Depressing start—-If it weren’t for the Mets we’d be dead last.
Double Zero Eight
April 14th, 2011
2:08 pm
Give him 8 more games to give him the benefit of
any doubt. I am not a McLouth fan. I think this year
will be a continuation of last year. His speed does him
no good if he can’t get on base. I hope I am wrong.
Bobby Cox
April 14th, 2011
2:09 pm
I told you TP wasn’t the problem.
Fols
April 14th, 2011
2:09 pm
We shouldn’t have AG or Escobar………we should have Elvis Andrus but that’s water under the bridge.
Joe
April 14th, 2011
2:10 pm
I’m willing to give McLouth some more time; it’s not like he’s the only guy in the lineup cold for the first 2 weeks.
The bigger issue with Heyward hitting 6th is Uggla’s terrible start in front of him (.152 BA, .188 OBP). Right now, he’s killing innings and leaving Chipper and Mac stranded far too often. How many times has Jason lead off an inning so far? Seems like an inordinate amount. He’s got 3 HRs and slugging .583, yet a total of only 6 RBIs because he’s not getting any ABs with RISP.
To me, the issue with the 5th spots the bigger concern thus far than the 2 hole.
Fols
April 14th, 2011
2:10 pm
Farnsworthy……you just jinxed it…..Mets are gonna roll us now!
Yunel
April 14th, 2011
2:12 pm
I wanted to come back but Fredi said I had too much Hanley in me.
Bob Leblaw's Law Blog
April 14th, 2011
2:13 pm
Joe, here’s the issue with your comment – Uggla had a bad two weeks. McLouth has had a bad year plus. This is the same song and dance we’ve seen since last season.
richie_richie1986
April 14th, 2011
2:13 pm
I have all the faith in the world in Fredi G. managerial skills. Lets give the guy some time!!!! Go Bravos! Gotta pull this one out tonight.
Kentavo
April 14th, 2011
2:13 pm
OK, here’s my lineup:
1. Prado, LF
2. Chipper, 3b
3. Heyward, RF
4. Uggla, 2b
5. McCann, C
6. Gonzo, SS
7. Freeman, 1B
8. McClouth, CF
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:13 pm
Fols
April 14th, 2011
1:35 pm
When the team goes hitless for 7 innings does it matter what order it’s in?
Exactly…it doesn’t matter one bit….these guys couldn’t hit a basketball tossed up there underhanded right now….
I’ve never heard so much whining about batting someone 2nd as opposed to 6th…..if both would just hit the dang ball, period, we’d be in much better shape.
CajunStorm
April 14th, 2011
2:15 pm
Prado
Larry
Heyward
Uggla
McCann
Gonzo
Freeman
McOut
Pitcher
IMHO, you live and die with your top 5-7 players. Whatever McOut gives us is a plus over last year. Uggla should be planted in the 4 spot to keep consistency 1-4 because B-Mac will sit 30 games because you have to either sit your catcher or kill your catcher. Gonzo is an underrated RBI producer so give him more chances with the BEST OBP players in the front 5. Freeman should be in the 6 hole ALL year.
My opinion means as much as the rest of us here on this Blog but hey….we all have opinions right?
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:17 pm
Ugly has been absolutely horrible. I keep hearing that he’ll heat up, but what if he doesn’t? The past is no guarantee of the future. This guy looks worse than joe would out there trying to make contact.
We all heard what McOut would do for us when he came over from pitt….well, we found out in a hurry it wouldn’t be much….
I’ll believe Ugly is some savior when he starts actually hitting the ball somewhere other than straight up the shoot….
bball fan
April 14th, 2011
2:17 pm
The main problem is the Braves have no leadoff hitter. Prado should be hitting second and leave Heyward in the sixth hole. Trade for a leadoff hitter/centerfielder.
CajunStorm
April 14th, 2011
2:17 pm
Dang Kentavo……GREAT POST!!!! LOL I guess there is another mind as brilliant as mine.
billmaier
April 14th, 2011
2:17 pm
go dawgs you are right nate onlystuckouttwo times last night and he didnt hit into any double plays- much better mclouth batting second would not be an issue if we actually had a center fielder that could hit
Joe
April 14th, 2011
2:18 pm
Leblaw,
I’m not demanding either of those spots change right now; McLouth and Uggla have both performed much better than this in their careers, so you expect the performances to improve.
But if people think Heyward’s misused in the 6 spot, I think his lack of run production in that spot has a lot to do with Uggla’s start. Uggla picks it up, Heyward starts getting more ABs with runners on, better pitches to hit, and more RBIs opportunities. So I’m defending Fredi’s decision to have him behind Chipper, Mac, and Uggla…at least for a little bit longer.
carlchamblee
April 14th, 2011
2:18 pm
whatofit, the 2010 numbers for Heyward are misleading. He only batted 6th 39 times, if you remember that was beginning of season when he came out smoking. He batted 10 times as much (388 abs) batting second and put up solid #s. He was moved up precisely because he showed that he could handle it. And i believe if not for the thumb injury his #s would have been stronger.
Besides if you wanna go by last year, how on earth do you explain Mclouth batting 2nd?
richie_richie1986
April 14th, 2011
2:19 pm
I think yal are making to early of an assessment. Nate is hitting the ball pretty darn good and having some good ABs and for what its worth so in Gonzo…. Gonzo has been really working the counts. I actually wouldn’t mind seeing him hit in the 2 spot.
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:19 pm
No, cajunstorm….the blog police will soon ridicule you and demand you stop posting….
I like your argument myself….ugly can’t do much worse hitting 4th….not like Mclard is doing a whole lot there himself….and McOut should be hitting 9th actually since most pitchers hit for better average than him…
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:22 pm
Yeah, I though McOut looked pretty good watching strike three go blazing by early in the game….he looked completely dumbfounded and what’s worse, as usual, as if he didn’t care anyway….
anyone with hair as ridiculous looking as his should’ve been put on waivers BEFORE spring training….looks like a poor man’s escobar with that crap on his head…i keep thinking it’s a joke, but i guess not….
Naboo the Enigma
April 14th, 2011
2:22 pm
I can’t imagine that McDip will stay hitting 2 for more than a couple of weeks. What would be the scenario that he would stay there? You know he isn’t going to bring that avg up so any other scenario? He can bunt really well? I just don’t see it. Yes it’s early but these are the games that will cost come this fall.
Fols
April 14th, 2011
2:25 pm
Not having a true lead-off hitter seems to really set the table for a lot of inconsistant stats.
I agree with whoever posted moving Prado down to the 2 spot and inserting speed up top.
We just don’t have that.
CajunStorm
April 14th, 2011
2:25 pm
BBall Fan…
Minor, McOut (eat half of salary), and a bullpen arm for Ellsbury. Solves our leadoff/cf problem and BoSox get a temp in CF and gets a poyential 5th starter and needed bull pen help. The way they are struggling…that are probably open to a move.
Naboo the Enigma
April 14th, 2011
2:25 pm
DAM, actually he can in any other inning than the 1st. Fact
Spider29
April 14th, 2011
2:26 pm
Last year when Bobby Cox batted Heyward second, lots of people wanted him lower in the order. Now Fredi is batting him lower and people still aren’t satisfied. Maybe we all should just take a breath, wait until the season is 25 to 30 games in and see what is happpening with the lineup. I bet that Fredi will make adjustments accordingly.
richie_richie1986
April 14th, 2011
2:26 pm
@phil,
Everybody strikes out looking man its part of the game. When he’s making contact which is prertty often he has some pop on it. Just isn’t finding the holes right now. Uggla i was hoping would have a better start I’m don’t know about his numbers the first month of the season…keeping my fingers crossed our bravos turn this around soon!
DAM
April 14th, 2011
2:27 pm
There is no possible way to justify putting your best hitter 6th. You just can’t do it. Every article that addresses that issue makes the same point — “It’s only worth maybe 4 runs over the course of the season, so it’s not that big of a deal.” Not one article has been written that says the current lineup actually helps the team score more runs (because it doesn’t); they all just repeat that it doesn’t actually cost us as many runs as we make it sound like it does with all the complaining.
When someone can prove that it is actually going to help us score more runs to place our best hitter 6th (which won’t happen based on all the available data and statistics), then I’ll stop complaining. Until then, there’s no way to justify what we’re doing. It’s inane.
DAM
April 14th, 2011
2:29 pm
Naboo — that wasn’t my comment saying that he can’t hit 3 run homers from the No. 2 spot. I was quoting someone else from the first page. My comments were below the quoted paragraph.
David O'Brien
April 14th, 2011
2:30 pm
There is no possible way to justify putting your best hitter 6th. You just can’t do it. Every article that addresses that issue makes the same point — “It’s only worth maybe 4 runs over the course of the season, so it’s not that big of a deal.” Not one article has been written that says the current lineup actually helps the team score more runs (because it doesn’t); they all just repeat that it doesn’t actually cost us as many runs as we make it sound like it does with all the complaining.
When someone can prove that it is actually going to help us score more runs to place our best hitter 6th (which won’t happen based on all the available data and statistics), then I’ll stop complaining. Until then, there’s no way to justify what we’re doing. It’s inane. — DAM
So despite all those articles you pointed out that note it amounts to a difference of about four runs over the course of a 162-game season, you’re going to continue to think about and vent about this particular subject, even when the manager clearly doesn’t care what critics outside the organization think about the matter?
Uh, well … OK. Go right ahead.
richie_richie1986
April 14th, 2011
2:30 pm
@spider29,
Don’t you know the AJC blog is full of GMs bro! This is where they come to get all their answers that’s how they get paid the big bucks by asking blog posters
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:31 pm
yes, mcout had a good game tues nite…and yes, clearly no one was getting a hit last nite against cy young himself….that pitiful thing FF hit was just blind luck or we probably would’ve finished up hitless….
so that said, mcout HAS looked better so far than all of last year, but we’ve got to have more than .220 out of him….period. would love to see a 3-4 or 4-4 game out of him….
Wazineh Suleiman
April 14th, 2011
2:33 pm
Try seeing my side of this. My husband is a controlling jerk.
richie_richie1986
April 14th, 2011
2:35 pm
well maybe after we play more than 3 series we can get more of a feel on what he’s going to do. Bravos have faced some pretty tough pitching so far. Josh Johnson pitched lightsout last night.
Spider29
April 14th, 2011
2:35 pm
richie, yes, I know you are right! It just strikes me as funny sometimes that folks don’t remember which side of the fence they were on just a short few months ago. When our guys start hitting like they are capable of (and I do believe they will), Heyward will be batting just about where he needs to be.
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:36 pm
Well Dave, do you prefer we all just shut up and go read something else every day? Why the “hate” on DAM? Good grief. You do such a great job but I swear, you’re at least as sensitive as I am….and that’s not a good thing probably…lol…i work and keep up with this blog some during the day now and have fun doing so….but don’t crush the readers for beating a dead horse…
Heyward is an obvious 4 hitter. Not a 2 and not a 6. That’s my take and i’m not overly concerned with what FG thinks about it. If he thinks 6, then 6 it is and we’ll keep our fingers crossed.
nashvillewill
April 14th, 2011
2:36 pm
Hey folks, fiddling with the lineup isn’t going to fix what’s wrong with this team. Simply, this team is lacking in talent. Gonzales is saving games in the field and losing them at the plate–a wash. McClouth is, well, not a very good player. I’m not sure Freeman is ready for the bigs and has little potetial for helping at the plate, though he also makes up for some deficiencies in the field. Chipper has little power left. And Uggla apparently will not be able to produce until May. In short, this team looks like one of the worst hitting teams in baseball. Pitching and fielding help prevent a fiasco, but I don’t expect much. McCann, Heyward, and Prado are the only consistent hitters. We also miss Infante’s production (RISP).
This team has all the makings of a .500 club. Sorry. Swapping parts around a mediocre machine still leaves a mediocre machine.
Tomahawk
April 14th, 2011
2:39 pm
even if nate rebounds, he still won’t be a fit for the #2 spot and certainly wont be more deserving of a greater number of at-bats than heyward. nate’s more of an rbi guy than a table setter anyways. heyward is both and therefore should be driving in runs AND setting the table. THATS what makes a lineup efficient. if you want rbi’s there has to be men on base. end of story. so, even if nate turns it around, fredi’s only going to be in a position where the team is better off demoting nate. what’s that going to do for his confidence? he does everything asked of him and still gets bumped down 4 spots in the order. not exactly thinking ahead, fredi.
Jack
April 14th, 2011
2:40 pm
I think the elephant in the room is the 3 hole. You have a great career 3 hole hitter still getting it done at age 39, and the future 3 hole hitter who is an absolute stud. I think Chipper has justified (not that he needs to) his spot in the line-up. The question then becomes what do do with Heyward, and when it comes to driving in runs and keeping the line-up balanced and competitive throughout, Heyward hitting sixth is a strong option. I would however like to see the line-up as:
1. Prado
2. Jones
3. Heyward
4. McCann/Uggla
5. Uggla/McCann
6. McLouth
7. Gonzalez
8. Freeman
Just until the offense becomes more consistent. But hey it’s still only April.
jfreak13713@yahoo.com
April 14th, 2011
2:44 pm
Glad to see we have a manager willing to stand his ground. He may be right or may end up being proved wrong but its his team and he wants to earn the respect of his players. McLouth is NOT this teams problem right now. He is simply a part of the machine that is not performing up to its potential. As the season goes on and if McLouth doesn’t starting getting that OBS up then I’m sure Fredi will make a move but its just to early for that right now. If you keep changing things then guys can’t get comfortable or it takes much longer for them to get comfortable.
I like Heyward and think he is really a number 3 hitter but that spot is currently being filled with a HOF 3rd baseman. Heyward is young and will have his chances but the big picture for this season is to determine “IF” McLouth can turn his career around. If not the Braves need to know that by the Allstar break so they can make a move for another hitter. If he can then they can focus on some other need like right handed hitter off bench or bullpen support. McLouths best chance of success is hitting 2nd and I agree with Fredi, for now.
Go Braves!
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:45 pm
nashville, you’re a hater….
only kidding…i think you’re probably somewhat right on the talent. frankly, i think FF needs to hit higher in the order and gonzo or mcout can hit 8th….FF gets nothing to swing at with the pitcher behind him, but he swings anyway, like me trying to swat flies….pitiful.
phil
April 14th, 2011
2:46 pm
jfreak is being secretly paid by DOB to say things like that…it’s a conspiracy started by frank wren…
Joshua
April 14th, 2011
2:52 pm
Heyward should either be hitting 4th or 6th. The reason he’s hitting sixth is because he is much faster than McCann, and that speed will be more beneficial at the bottom of the order where guys are less likely to hit HRs. That is why he is sixth instead of McCann. And I’m fine with that.
And nothing is going to change until we have a significant sample size to observe: probably at LEAST one month. So spare us the whining people.
Slug McGnaw
April 14th, 2011
2:53 pm
Ha ha. Anybody can be a MLB manager. All you have to do is fill out the line-up card.
Joshua
April 14th, 2011
2:55 pm
Chipper Jones is not fast enough to hit second. Period. He’s not going to hit second. So just shut up about it. CHIPPER JONES IS NOT GOING TO BAT SECOND – EVER EVER EVER. So just shut up about it.
billmaier
April 14th, 2011
2:56 pm
bob leblaw you are so dead on.– if i had a nickel for every time ive heard lets give mclousy some more time over the last year and a half i’d have millions— uggla does not have a year and a half of being bad, just the opposite but to keeep saying mclouth will turn it around, weve been riding that horse too long– 20 more games that’s it if he is stillbatting 200– batted 190 last year– then it is time for a change- shafer, and constanza still over 300 at triple a– or trade for a center fileder that can hit teams are looking for pitching my god we have 8 projected starters by august if medlen can come back, teheran shows he belongs– and minor improves– then you have delegado and viziciano in the wings– you cannot use ten starters for the future- we we need a center fielder that can hit.
mathman
April 14th, 2011
3:00 pm
My hat is getting tattered and worn from all of the tipping. Schafer hitting .300 at Gwinnett and getting several walks. McLouse hitting .220 and headed south. The blonde doo hasn’t helped. An eye doctor appointment might.
mathman
April 14th, 2011
3:01 pm
The next pitcher we may be tipping our hat to: Ricky Nolasco. Beachy had better hold them to 2 runs or less.
Joshua
April 14th, 2011
3:04 pm
LOL @ people who still want Schafer rather than McLouth. Sad.
E-6
April 14th, 2011
3:04 pm
Think I’m okay with the Braves manager setting the line-up. He seems to have figured out what somewhat else on this blog pointed out – moving McClouth to 6th gives you a guy trying to straighten out his career hitting in front of a very undisciplined hitter followed by a rookie (followed, of course, by the pitcher). Let’s wait another twelves games before we go into panic mode.
What???
April 14th, 2011
3:11 pm
This whole argument is stupid. The Braves know that it would be a HUGE plus for this team if Nate McLouth starts hitting like he did in Pittsburg and to try a make that happen they have put him in the 2-hole so that he will be protected, see some pitches, hopefully (but doubtfully) get some hits and confidence. If he continues not to produce, he will not be in this lineup long term. The Braves saw this as a way to get Shafer some ABs in the minors for a few months prior to throwing him back in the fire. I expect to see him in another 6 weeks or so if Nate is still sucking it up (which I expect he will be). You people need to look at the broader strategy and realize that it isn’t September, it’s April. The Braves always use the first half of the season to figure out what pieces are going to work and which ones aren’t. I expect that Sherrill and Linebrink will also be replaced after the all-star break by some of the young arms we have down on the farm.
Nate
April 14th, 2011
3:12 pm
Fredi G. is still living in that same old school world that Bobby Cox lived in for so long that failed to win him anything of significance. Fredi will waste away talent trying to turn a career below average hitter into an all-star by batting him in front of Chipper and McCann. Gonzalez will eventually get what he deserves (a pink slip) while the team suffers (with losses and lack of run production) as a result. If you don’t play your best players (Jason Heyward) the most, you deserve to get fired no matter what the reasoning/justification.
Supes
April 14th, 2011
3:18 pm
rob from sc is correct.
The ideal lineup right now would include not only moving McLouth out of 2nd slot and moving Heyward up…but moving Chipper Jones to 2nd.
Chipper Jones still has power (somewhat diminished but 15-20HR) but his on base% is one of the best in the league. Why not USE this to the team’s advantage.
1. Prado
2. Chipper
3. Heyward
4. Uggla
5. McCann
6. Freeman
7. Gonzo
8. McLouth
9. Pitcher
This would be the best lineup as the team is currently constructed (25 man roster).
It makes too much sense…everyone knows it…except Fredi and the people in charge who are in denial.
Heyward is the future, the young man is mature enough hitting 3rd. Move Freeman to 6th where he’ll see more pitches to hit and won’t be pressing as much in the 8th hole. I don’t give a crap where McLouth is “most comfortable” in the order…this isn’t a comfort thing. I’d rather have Freeman going than McLouth (who is only on the team due to his untradeable status – money & craptastic 2010 performance)
brandon
April 14th, 2011
3:19 pm
It’s still early. Seems everything negative about the Braves offense somehow revolves around McLouth. He’ll come around. I’m sure if the Braves would have gotten no-hit last night, it would somehow be Nate’s fault even though everyone else would have went 0-fer. The Braves TEAM is not hitting well…yep, TEAM!
Supes
April 14th, 2011
3:21 pm
Hey Joshua…
have you ever heard of this statistic…it’s called ON BASE PERCENTAGE??? It’s more important than SPEED at the moment for this CURRENT Braves team. Chipper hitting 2nd makes too much FRAKING sense, which is why it won’t ever ever ever happen. Nothing that makes sense lately happens with my favorite team…but yeah good point sir (NOT).
Sammy Slider
April 14th, 2011
3:24 pm
I would be a superior manager as far as actual managing goes.
Tracey
April 14th, 2011
3:26 pm
Mclouth is not the main reason why the lineup is not producing runs. He is actually improving. We need more production from the 4th and 5th spots.
billmaier
April 14th, 2011
3:26 pm
brandon you are right not all on mclouth the whole team is not hitting- but mclouth has not been hitting since he became a brave, i have faith that the team will turn it around, but what gives you faith that mclouth after a year and a ahlf as a brave can or will?
Kal
April 14th, 2011
3:26 pm
Folks, remember we are only 12 games into the season and usually by the end of April a manager is in a better position to change his lineup if needed.
Also, it is irrelevant who is the leadoff hitter since that person will not bat leadoff four times in a game but once or possibly twice.
All will be well soon.
John
April 14th, 2011
3:36 pm
Kentavo
April 14th, 2011
2:13 pm
OK, here’s my lineup:
1. Prado, LF
2. Chipper, 3b
3. Heyward, RF
4. Uggla, 2b
5. McCann, C
6. Gonzo, SS
7. Freeman, 1B
8. McClouth, CF
Ding, Ding Ding. We have a winner. I might switch McClouth and Freeman at this point though. The easiest solution is moving Chipper to the two hole and Heyward to 3, but it is not going to happen. Chipper would be an unbelievable 2 hitter at this point. I like Uggla at 4 and McCann at 5 because as another poster said it creates consistency when McCann sits out. Plus, I feel like McCann has been more productive at the 5 spot throughout his career.
Matt
April 14th, 2011
3:40 pm
I read this somewhere and though it was a good idea…
Trade McClouth and Kawakami to the Mets for Carlos Beltran. Everyone wins. New York gets another sorely needed starting pitching and a CF replacement for Beltran. Atlanta gets a proven slugger, unloads a large contract currently in AA. Beltran gets to play for a better team that are expected to compete for a playoff spot. Kawakami gets to start in MLB again (yeah, that’s how bad the Mets’ pitching is) and McClouth gets the change of scenery he probably needs to re-start his career.
Beltran will be a free agent at season’s end. So, the financial burden isn’t that difficult to bear. It’s not looking like McClouth has much of a future here and Kawakami is in AA. Just getting rid of the Kawakami contract would be a win.
David Granger
April 14th, 2011
3:40 pm
Hard to know what to do here. With the Pirates, McClouth was basically a .250 hitter, but walked about 10% of the time, so his OBP was about .350. Last year with the Braves he only hit .190 playing half-time, which is not good. He still walked about ten percent of the time, but that can’t overcome hitting below the Mendoza line.
I do hope Fredi Gonzalez doesn’t have that Bobby Cox mindset where he picks a lineup and then doesn’t change it WAY past the time it’s clearly not working. Cox had Andruw Jones batting leadoff for a full half season one year, and Jones was about as much of a leadoff hitter as he was a chickadee.
Harvey's
April 14th, 2011
3:42 pm
Could there be a “birther” problem?
Mark
April 14th, 2011
3:43 pm
I think I would settle for MCSUCK getting cut at this point.
I feel the lineup needs tweaking but I guess Uggla should wake up at some point.
LARRY PARRISH
April 14th, 2011
3:44 pm
IF I CAN GET HORNER TO LAY OFF THE OUTSIDE PITCH, AND HUBBARD TO BE MORE AGGRESSIVE………..
brandon
April 14th, 2011
3:46 pm
Uggla’s hitting .152…should we hit him 8th??? Just wondering…
cs95
April 14th, 2011
3:50 pm
to everyone putting chipper NOT in the 3hole. stop. it’s not happening. you have a much better chance of nate and heyward moving, heck even mccann or uggla moving than chipper. The only other player that is most likely not to move at all in the lineup this season is prado.
DOB,
as for the lineup, do you personally agree with fredi? For me it’s not so much a question of agreeing or disagreeing, but more so a situation of I cannot think of anywhere else to hit nate. His skill set really is best utilized in the 2-hole. I just cringe at the thought of a bottom lineup of nate, alex, freddie and pitcher. reminds me of KJ, frenchy, pitcher from a couple years ago. I actually would be more willing to see him go uggla, heyward, mccann or heyward, uggla, mcann for the 4-6 hitters. everyone else i am happy with there spots in the lineup.
DAM
April 14th, 2011
3:53 pm
DOB — yep, pretty much, and since I have your permission now, I think I will go right ahead. Thanks.
Joshua
April 14th, 2011
4:04 pm
Supes,
Chipper Jones will never bat second. And I truly enjoy how irate that makes you.
moriler
April 14th, 2011
4:06 pm
Well, now we know why most of you are posting on a blag instead of managing a team.
There aren’t even 15 games in the books yet and you whiz kids are gripin’ your heads off. Half of you probably never even bothered to go through everyone’s hits and outs and chart how many were “well hit, but rightatem” — which isn’t surprising, it’s a lot easier to just gripe because we’re not 11-3.
Joshua
April 14th, 2011
4:10 pm
Here’s a little secret: throughout the course of a 162 game seasons, your offense is going to wax and wane. It is just natural. Remember the Phillies terrible streak last year when they got shut out like 3 games in a row and couldn’t score to save their lives for like 2 weeks? I mean God, you whiny little babies really are irritating. Some teams start hot, some start cold. It’s going to happen again before the season is over, and there are going to be streaks where a ton of runs are scored. Anyone who doesn’t understand this shouldn’t be posting on this blog.
Now, after an entire month, if we are still having problems like this, then its time to tweak the line-up. Until then, just pipe down.
cs95
April 14th, 2011
4:12 pm
you guys realize that mclouth has a better avg. than freeman and uggla. mclouth also has a higher OBP than prado, alex, freeman and uggla. lastly, if nate keeps doing what he did tuesday night (1-3 2B, advance prado to 3B(who scored on chipper’s SF)) then i am fine with him hitting second.
DHD
April 14th, 2011
4:13 pm
I’m tired of people questioning Fredi when they are NOT in the clubhouse and have no clue as to what is going on. How many games have we played?
Shaun
April 14th, 2011
4:19 pm
“Yeah,” he said. “When you make out the lineup, the lineup is a function of the entire lineup – eight guys, not just one guy. Statisticians, numbers crunchers and my SABR [Society for American Baseball Research] people – I’m a member – they shoot holes in that stuff. But you’re dealing with humans in the way the lineup is constructed.”
How does the fact that he’s dealing with humans negate the fact that Heyward is a better on-base guy than all but maybe one of his teammates, that he is as good a slugger as all but maybe one or two of his teammates and that hitting him sixth versus second could cost him over 50 plate appearances?
“Yeah, you put this guy in the No. 2 hole, but what are you going to do to the 6-hole? What are you going to do to [No. 5 hitter Dan] Uggla when he’s hitting good?”
What’s wrong with Uggla staying where he is an McLouth hitting sixth? I’m not sure what he’s implying here. What are you doing to the number 2-hole? The number two hitter comes up a lot more often and ahead of better hitters than the number six hitter. So why would you put one of your four weakest hitters in the number two spot just so that you have a good hitter behind your number five hitter?
“Like the situation [Tuesday], when McLouth bunts [Martin] Prado over to third,” he said. “Now are you are going to play the infield in? Are you going to pitch to Chipper or pitch to [No. 4 hitter Brian] McCann? That kind of stuff.”
What about the possibility in that situation of having Prado on second with no outs and Heyward, Chipper, McCann and Uggla due up?
“When everybody doing things like we did yesterday, hitting gappers, hitting some balls out of the ballpark, it makes [the lineup] good.”
Yes, when everyone gets a lot of extra-base hits, that’s a good thing. Over the course of the season, hitting one of your best hitters, if not your best, higher than sixth would lead to more extra-base hits.
“I think the way the lineup is constructed is more important,” he said, before applying the additional-plate-appearances reasoning to a rhetorical question to reporters: “Then why don’t we lead off [Albert] Pujols? Or [Barry] Bonds? Lead ‘em off.”
The additional plate appearances aren’t the only consideration. That’s just one piece. There is also giving your best hitter a chance to hit with a runner on base in the first inning and about putting your best or second-best on-base guy in a spot where he can be both a table-setter and have a shot at a fair number of chances to advance the leadoff hitter (and possibly hitters at the bottom of the order who get on base) in addition to the extra plate appearances. One reason (namely additional plate appearances) alone is not enough to hit Heyward higher in the order. But that one reason combined with others is reason enough.
“Believe me,” Gonzalez said, “when a guy’s going good in a certain spot — he likes it; he’s comfortable – his whole game is [going well], let ‘em play. Let ‘em do it….
“When you’re going bad, you come up with the bases loaded every time. I mean, you can be hitting 11th and it’ll happen. When you’re going good, it doesn’t matter.
“Everybody [in the lineup] has got a function.”
It doesn’t seem very likely at all that McLouth’s successful Spring was due to him hitting second. He’s facing major league pitchers. They are going to throw whatever it takes to get a hitter out, no matter where he’s hitting. In fact, if anything, I would guess that pitchers are tougher on number two hitters because they know they need to get an out before the middle of the order comes up. Plus there is the fact that McLouth’s performance in the 6th and 7th spots in the order are better than his overall career performance. I don’t see any reason to believe McLouth has to hit second in order to get “going well.” If there were an inferior hitter who seems to have a need to hit third in order to get going well, would he consider moving Chipper from third? I doubt it. So why move Heyward for an inferior hitter?
Bernard
April 14th, 2011
4:21 pm
…as I’ve written on numerous occasions, “Mc OUT!!!” OUCH!!!!!
reckingball
April 14th, 2011
4:25 pm
At the end of the story, the fact is, that Fredi G. is the manager and all you belly-achers are not.
You all have the right to bitch, complain, hate, and say what you would do, or what should be done.
But, it really doesn’t mattter what your opinion is, because no one really gives a fudge, other than yourself or maybe some of your pi$$ing and moaning brothers and sisters.
reckingball
April 14th, 2011
4:29 pm
Chillax, the Braves will start hitting.
It’s only baseball, anywho.
Elonbrave
April 14th, 2011
4:31 pm
DOB, as always, I apologize if this has been answered before… BUT
I read what Gonzalez said about the “human being” aspect of the lineup. I understand that Freddie thinks that mentally, McClouth could benefit from seeing more fastballs that the no. 2 hitter sees with Chipper protecting (allegedly, I mean, because with all these articles amy wittle bwain I’ze just don’t know what to thinks anymore!!!… sorry). I’m sure it’s also a vote-of-confidence type of thing to say “we trust you enough to put you in the 2 hole”. Ok, I get that, I guess. But I’m curious about the other side of that “human” thing.
What does Heyward think about it? Does he care? Back when I was a 21 year old baseball phenom (I wasn’t) I sure LOVED seeing a bunch of fastballs, given that I was still developing, still learning, etc. Is he too talented for it to matter?
I guess to me, it seems like while McClouth could indeed benefit from the spot, the Braves AND Heyward could benefit from Heyward hitting second. Besides, SABRmetrics can’t account for things like Heyward having a real knack for coming through in late-inning, tied ballgames… or CAN it?
coonhound
April 14th, 2011
4:32 pm
Well Pujols & Bonds hit 3rd & 4th not 6th Mr. Fredi G. !!!
coonhound
April 14th, 2011
4:36 pm
Why do my comments need moderating ? All the stuff you let go on these blogs and my normal comments need moderating ?
Mike
April 14th, 2011
4:40 pm
I didn’t read all the blogs so maybe this has been mentioned. I recall last year that many people on this blog were complaining because Heyward was hitting second and he should hit lower so he could drive in runs. Sounds to me like we have a lot of complaining for the sake of complaining.
George Stein
April 14th, 2011
4:44 pm
“When you make out the lineup, the lineup is a function of the entire lineup – eight guys, not just one guy.”
What does that even mean? Can anyone make any sense of that statement.
As to the folks who have suggested moving Chipper to 2nd and Heyward to 3rd, that would be the proper lineup and the one that would generate the most runs while also forcing opposing managers to use more of the bullpen later in games to get righty-righty/lefty-lefty matchups.
coonhound
April 14th, 2011
4:48 pm
I think daily & nightly hitting sessions with Albert Pujols or Tony Gwynn are the only shots at fixing McOut !
Dennis Reynolds
April 14th, 2011
4:49 pm
Unbelievable. The answer is so simple. Bat Nate leadoff. Bat Prado second. Keep Chipper third. Bat Heyward fourth.
I hate when people make such a huge deal out of the 4 hole. Just because you think of a Serranno when you think of a “clean up guy” doesn’t mean it has to be a prototypical “clean up guy”
If you think about that lineup with Nate getting on, opening more holes for THE prototypical 2 hole hitter, Prado, and stealing some bags from time to time, its pretty interesting. Just because Prado is getting on out of the leadoff role doesn’t mean thats the best spot for him. Just because Uggla will probably lead our team in HRs this year, doesn’t mean he has to bat 4th either. Everyone has their own opinion on this topic- and I mean everyone- but if you know anything about your players, you could see why this lineup would be at least better than the current one.
1. Nate
2. Prado
3. Chipper
4. Heyward
5. Uggla
6. Mac
7. Freeman
8. Gonzo
Pete*
April 14th, 2011
4:49 pm
Matt: “I read this somewhere and though it was a good idea…
Trade McClouth and Kawakami to the Mets for Carlos Beltran.”
Beltran retired yesterday.
glove51
April 14th, 2011
4:50 pm
Aaaarrrrrgggghhhh! The old legit lead-off hitter with speed argument rears its head. A leadoff hitter needs to get on base.
coonhound
April 14th, 2011
4:50 pm
Heyward has actually been the most consistent hitter other than McCann (who needs to hit 4th). Why hit Heyward 6th when Nate isn’t worthy to hit 2nd ?
Lew
April 14th, 2011
4:51 pm
I don’t like to see McLouth bat period.
coonhound
April 14th, 2011
4:52 pm
Dennis, the 4th place hitter needs to be the power hitter. Your goal is 1 thru 3 to get on and 4th hitter deliver a grand slam.
Versiroth
April 14th, 2011
4:52 pm
David O’Brien…. did you ever find out Kimbrel’s closer music?
Versiroth
April 14th, 2011
4:53 pm
“I don’t like to see McLouth bat period.” He has an OBP higher than Prado and Uggla right now…
Dennis Reynolds
April 14th, 2011
4:53 pm
I propose this lineup only because I know that Fredi will NEVER move Chipper from the 3 hole. Chipper is still a great hitter, but on this team at this stage of his career, he shouldn’t bat 3rd.
If I knew Fredi had the balls to make such a bold move in his first year, I would actually prefer to see this lineup:
1. Prado
2. Chipper
3. Heyward
4. Uggla
5. Mac
6. Freeman
7. Gonzo
8. Nate
Dennis Reynolds
April 14th, 2011
4:59 pm
coonhound-
very appropriate name for you by the way.
Only the fans who aren’t actually knowledgeable when it comes to baseball go by your rule. Just because you think of a bug hulking badass when you think of the 4 hole, doesn’t mean thats who has to hit there. Lineups vary for each team. In this case, if Fredi No Balls decides he’s too scared to move the franchise player from the 3rd slot, then Heyward shouldn’t bat 2nd, 5th or 6th. 4th would be the best spot for him.
Create an original idea from time to time. What do you think keybangers like you said when LaRussa said he would bat the pitcher 8th??
2,700 wins later………
Pete*
April 14th, 2011
5:03 pm
coonhound: “Dennis, the 4th place hitter needs to be the power hitter. Your goal is 1 thru 3 to get on and 4th hitter deliver a grand slam.”
Coon, how many times does that happen? Ill take my power hitter (especially if he has a reasonably high BA) in the 3rd slot, same as Cards and Pujols.
glove51
April 14th, 2011
5:04 pm
Here si the line-up I’d prefer:
1. Chipper
2. Heyward
3. Uggla
4. McCann
5. Prado
6. McLouth or Gonzo
7. Gonzo or McLouth
8. Freeman
Dennis Reynolds
April 14th, 2011
5:07 pm
coonhound-
Yea cuz if you have 3 guys who get on base, you’re almost guaranteed a grand slam. Some people.
If more fans would actually COME TO SOME GAMES instead of sitting home keybanging all night, they would actually know something about baseball. Its no wonder were so frequently made fun of by other cities with good fan bases. I understand New York, Boston and Philly, but whats St. Louis got that we don’t? In packed cities such as NY and Boston, its easy for ppl to get to the stadium where as in Atlanta its more rural. In turn making it more difficult to go see a game on a regular basis. But the same goes for St. Louis and they have one of the strongest fan bases in the game. I would never stray from the Braves so don’t even start with the whole “go be a card fan then”, I would just like to see Atlanta embrace a team who’s actually trying to win a championship. 13,000 people on ANY day is pathetic.