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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,528 comments Add your comment
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
11:21 am
TennesseePaul,
I agree with that assessment wholeheartedly. Mclouth’s name can be interchanged with numerous issues through the last few decades.
TennesseePaul
December 22nd, 2010
11:21 am
And yes, I did gripe about Nate all of last year. You’ve been going on about the payroll for at least six seasons I’m aware of.
Yes I have Lew. And it’s that same level of consistency that I desire to see from the outfield… but it ain’t happening on an ever shrinking budget. : )
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
11:22 am
TennesseePaul
It’s called fuzzy math, not a shrinking budget.
timthebrave
December 22nd, 2010
11:23 am
Soph, First time I tried it said sold out but then someone didn’t complete their transaction and it released them back
TennesseePaul
December 22nd, 2010
11:24 am
I’m sure they are probably wishing they had taken Lowe last year. Talk about 20/20 hindsight.
Yeah, that wish wouldnt’ surprise me at all. But, on the other hand, perhaps it helped them with avoiding Povano this off-season… They gave Javy a second chance and it was awful… no way they make that same mistake two years in a row.
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
11:25 am
Yeah, I couldn’t see them wanting to roll the dice on Povano again. He was a lot like Hampton was to the Braves the whole time he was with the team.
MFin04
December 22nd, 2010
11:25 am
I’m surprised the Yankees aren’t in the top 5 of best rotations
Thom Brooks
December 22nd, 2010
11:26 am
David, Merry Christmas! Please listen to my son’s band, called Listen 2 Three. They’re on Facebook, from Savannah, but live in Atlanta. They’re good and would love any recognition you could give. They just played for Ed Roland of Collective Soul at his Christmas Party at Eddie’s Attic.
Thanks, Thom Brooks
cricket
December 22nd, 2010
11:26 am
Steve McP 10:19 am
I agree about Bradman over Sachin, though I don’t like comparing players from two different eras. Still, no question – Bradman has to get the nod and I think most of the Indians (ok, all my friends) actually agree with this.
), I remember hearing his name may be from age 13/14 (I am a year older than him) and people used to travel from all over Mumbai just to watch his batting in local matches. The pressure of expectations from a billion people, most of who do not much to look forward to in life, that he has shouldered over 20 years is just unbelievable. I sincerely do not believe any sportsman has ever endured so much pressure for so long and performed at such a great level, all the while keeping his child like enthusiasm for the sport, his commitment and drive (even now practices more than anyone else in team, and some of them were not born when he made his debut), his humility and his ability to lead pretty much perfect life in spite of God like status in the nation that comes with so many temptations. America would have loved this guy. Hope he finally gets to be part of world cup winning team.
As far as modern era goes, again no question in my mind that Sachin is best and way better than Lara, Ponting and Kallis etc. In Mumbai (then Bombay
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
11:27 am
The one thing about the Yanks however, when they get desperate they are willing to do just about anything which always leads to them over paying.
MFin04
December 22nd, 2010
11:27 am
So that list puts us 3rd or 4th in the NL and 4 teams make the playoffs. That actually is pretty nice. Who cares about AL rotations, doesn’t really concern us that much.
richbrave
December 22nd, 2010
11:27 am
“………If Senko Tanaka is your shidoshi, then show us the dim-mac………..” Bloodsport.
Watch out PHILLIES fans and BRAVES wanna’ be’s, here we come.
TooSlim73
December 22nd, 2010
11:28 am
DOB
I’d have “Wake Up the Nation” a bit higher but I like the list.
Steve-O in Vegas
December 22nd, 2010
11:29 am
No Eminem, Drake or Lil-Wayne on the list? Eminem’s CD was his best to date, including the Marshall Mathers LP. Deeply emotional CD; I haven’t gone through 1/10 of what he’s gone through, but it still resonates. And he simply reestablished himself as the best rapper not named Jay-Z. Drake’s album was different; a nice blend of Hip-Hop and R&B; dude’s just smooth. Lil Wayne’s album was nice – I won’t say too much for that one being excluded.
As for the baseball part of the blog, anyone who thinks the Nats or Fish are going to seriously challenge the Braves (assuming they stay healthy) is crazy. The Marlins have Josh Johnson, Hanley Ramirez (I hate sharing the last name with that guy – what a fool sometimes), and…? Washington has…Jayson…Werth? Talk to me in 4 years about the Nationals (saw Bryce Harper play some juco games out here last season — dude’s LEGIT). Philly has an all-time rotation on paper, but health is always key. And they lost Werth, and haven’t been able to unload Raul Ibanez, who’s declining, and not cheap. All their stars are north of 30…so it’ll be interesting this season, for sure!
richbrave
December 22nd, 2010
11:30 am
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
11:27 am
The one thing about the Yanks however, when they get desperate they are willing to do just about anything which always leads to them over paying.
That luxury tax they got hit with this year will knock ‘um back a bit. Besides, I think the “win at any cost” mentality has passed away.
Juan
December 22nd, 2010
11:35 am
Everyone compare The Phillis rotation agains other Past rotation are the bestor #1….You can’t compare a Phillis Rotation before they do something together….They have four capable number One Pitcher, but together they acomplish “NADA”, NONE,ZIP, yet….
Ted M
December 22nd, 2010
11:40 am
Buster Olney ranks the rotations, with the Phillies, Giants, and Athletics taking the top three spots. It seems odd to see the Cardinals in an eighth-place tie, but there are a lot of good ones.
I don’t have ESPN insider; Does anyone know the list or where he put the Braves rotation?
It would be much appreciated if you could post it.
Steve-O in Vegas
December 22nd, 2010
11:40 am
Juan, that’s why I said they have an all-time rotation *on paper.* They still have to go out and prove it, but individually, they’ve all put together great seasons. None have a history of significant injuries, and unlike the other 8 on the field, pitching rotations are more individual anyway. I’m a Braves fan, and believe me, I hope that it doesn’t work out for Philly…but, I’m a realist…they’re rotation is already something special.
timthebrave
December 22nd, 2010
11:46 am
Why is everyone saying that Hamels is an ace? He wasn’t an ace before they got Lee and now they got Lee and he suddenly he is ace material. The Phillies got a great rotation but people are wanting it to be better than it is
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
11:46 am
richbrave Besides, I think the “win at any cost” mentality has passed away.
what makes you think that? the $200+ mil payroll?
TennesseePaul
December 22nd, 2010
11:50 am
He wasn’t an ace before they got Lee and now they got Lee and he suddenly he is ace material.
He was an ace on the WS Champion team.
Lemke's Knuckleball
December 22nd, 2010
11:52 am
Every team in the NL East has question marks…
Mets – health & pitching: will Bay, Beltran and Reyes return to form, what will Johan be when he returns midseason, will they be able to get any consistent pitching from Pelfrey, Maine, Niese, etc.
Marlins – Youth and bullpen: A lot of young guys with potential (Coughlan, Sanchez, Stanton, Morrison) but you never know what you’re going to get with that. Also, a bullpen does Dunn, Choate and Nunez not make.
Phillies – Matchup issues, bullpen & depth: They are loaded with lefties (Brown, Utley, Howard, Ibanez) and I contend they will struggle much the same way the Braves have the past few years without that right-handed bat to split those guys up. Also, we all know Lidge is one bad horoscope away from another implosion and Madson can’t pitch every night. And a few key injuries and there’s not much left in their system to fill in the gaps.
Nats: I really don’t have to explain much here. Without Strasburg, their pitching belongs in AAA.
Who cares what the payroll is. The team with the lowest payroll, the Marlins, is actually the team that scares me the most.
coachx
December 22nd, 2010
11:57 am
Love your taste in music.
Jamie Johnson and DBT are 2 of my favorites over the last few years too.
CraZyTRaDeMaN
December 22nd, 2010
12:00 pm
timthebrave……
I agree!!!! Not sure how a pitcher who has 5 seasons in the Big Leagues won 15 games only once and has a 22-22 record over the last 2 years can be considered an ace.
Ted M
December 22nd, 2010
12:02 pm
Age is going to catch up to Ibanez next year. The 39yr old is going to have down year.
DS1
December 22nd, 2010
12:04 pm
Crazy
It’s all magic! He is a Phillies starting pitcher, so he must be an ace, right? And Oswalt too! You betcha!
I’ll agree to your ace designations for Halladay and Lee. I saw something yesterday that stated that Catfish Hunter had 30 complete games in one season (think it was mid 70’s), and nobody has approached that level since.
I blame Tony LaRussa for a lot of this specialization, which has turned major league starters into wimps.
Murph
December 22nd, 2010
12:09 pm
Am I the only one who looks at Cliff Lee’s stats and doesn’t see the “ace” part? He had two good seasons, one in 2005 and one in 2008. The rest of his career has been pretty mediocre. His ERA is a lot closer to 4 than it is to 3… the only thing that really jumps out at me is his IP, which averages over 200 per year.
O.J.
December 22nd, 2010
12:10 pm
Ted M, it was already posted on here, check out the last few pages.
O.J.
December 22nd, 2010
12:17 pm
Murph, Cliff Lee has been an ace on some staffs that werent very good, so he was basically the ace because of the staff he was on. But yes, he has been very mediocre except for a few years. A scout also said that while he has good command, he doesnt have an ‘OUT’ pitch, which could hurt him in the long run. Cliff Lee doesnt scare me
Braverson111
December 22nd, 2010
12:18 pm
DOB:
I repeat the Doug`s Question:Any talk of a Prado extension? Would love to see him locked up longterm.
Ted M
December 22nd, 2010
12:19 pm
I’ll look. thx OJ
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
12:19 pm
id say cole hamels pitched like in ace in 2008 and 2010. check out those years, and tell me he didnt pitch like an ace. if you do, id say your definition of an ace is unbelievably narrow. by the way, he went 14-10 and 12-11 in those two years.
N8
December 22nd, 2010
12:21 pm
“N8 from last night, the 3rd tiebreaker for the NFL is actually record vs common opponents” MaconBraves(RIP)
Thanks. I had them flipped in my head (Conference record and Common Opponents).
That actually makes perfect sense when you stop and think about it. Because teams within a division obviously play the other teams in their divisiono twice each for (6) games. Then they each play the same four NFC/AFC teams in the opposite league of theirs for (4) games. They also play (4) games against one other complete division in their conference, with the remaining (2) games being games against the teams from the remaining to divisions in their own conference who finished in the same place as they did the year before.
So for instance, the Chiefs “got to” play the Browns and Bills as the other last place teams in the two AFC divisions they weren’t playing every team in. While the Chargers had to play Pittsburgh and New England for winning the division last year.
Short point long, it wouldn’t be fair to judge conference record when one team clearly had two tougher opponents than the other.
Thanks for the reminder and correction.
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
12:22 pm
ted m, Age is going to catch up to Ibanez next year. The 39yr old is going to have down year.
i agree, but ill add that age caught up with him already. 2010 was a down year for him, he wasnt terrible, but if he isnt better in 2011 (and i doubt he will be) he will be a big weakness in that lineup.
T for Texas
December 22nd, 2010
12:26 pm
The only thing that would provide equity is a capped payroll for all of MLB – and we know that ain’t happening anytime soon.
I think they could work it out with the Union, but along with the payroll cap there would have to be a floor that teams couldn’t spend below.
Am I the only one who looks at Cliff Lee’s stats and doesn’t see the “ace” part?
I posted about this a while back. His ERA and wins are pretty mediocre. His WHIP and SO/BB ratio are outstanding, at least for the last three years.
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
12:27 pm
16 homers and a .793 OPS isnt exactly what the phillies were hoping for in 636 PA from their $12mil left fielder last year.
its not a terrible line, but its certainly not great for a leftfielder, and especially for one making $12mil and batting 5th. he probably wont get much better at age 39, either.
N8
December 22nd, 2010
12:28 pm
I think Lee is a good match for the NL. Add to that, anybody who followed Braves baseball in the 90’s know that those guys feed off of each other. Denny Neagle had far and away his best season of his career while in Atlanta as their 4th starter, as opposed to being the Ace on another team (and a crappy team at that).
While on paper the Phillies have 4 aces. All 4 of them have the luxury of relaxing, knowing that the other 3 guys will have their back if they have an off night.
It’s similar to having Chipper in the 3-hole with McGriff, Javy Lopez and Justice behind him. Rather than McCann, A-Gone and Infante.
When a rotation or lineup has depth and QUALITY depth, it does wonders for production all the way around imo. No pressure on one guy and one guy alone to do all the dirty work.
Ted M
December 22nd, 2010
12:30 pm
Thx again OJ…can’t believe he has the Milwaukee Brewers rotation ranked 6th best.
Murph
December 22nd, 2010
12:32 pm
DAP, I agree… W/L record isn’t exactly a good indicator of “ace” status. To me an “ace” is a consistently dominant pitcher… Hamels in those 2 years was consistently dominant despite not getting the kind of run support needed for a 20-win season.
Compare him to Tommy Hanson’s 2 seasons. Hanson was also dominant, but not consistently. If he can avoid the 8 run blowups and maintain the level he’s pitched at for his 2 (more like 1.5) seasons then I think it’s safe to say Hanson is an “ace” in the making.
Ted M
December 22nd, 2010
12:34 pm
DAP – Ibanez did have a down year in 2010 but he was great 2nd half after a terrible first half.
He won’t have a 2nd like last year.
ryan c
December 22nd, 2010
12:40 pm
Murph…
WAR is probably the most important stat in the business. Cliff Lee, as a starting pitcher in 2010, had a 7.1 WAR, which is good for first in the Majors. Roy Halladay was 2nd (Roy Oswalt was 15th and Cole Hamels was 34th). Technically, that’s 3 aces and one #2 starter.
Here’s Cliff’s rankings the last 3 years according to WAR:
2010: 1st
2009: 6th
2008:4th
He’s an ace. Think about who we consider aces on our staff and understand that none of our pitchers came close to Cliff Lee’s stats the past 3 years. And, what’s more depressing, take the last 3 years into effect and guess who is #1 and #2 according to WAR….
Roy Halladay: 21.5 WAR
Cliff Lee: 20.9 WAR
LawDawg
December 22nd, 2010
12:41 pm
no love for Girl Talk’s ‘all day’? Such an awesome album. mashup of lil john and simon & garfunkel is awesome.
al
December 22nd, 2010
12:48 pm
DOB, check out “In Evening Air” by Future Islands, a North Carolina indie band….my fav album of the year….kinda new wave-ish with a singer that sounds like a cross between Tom Waits and Glen Danzig
peace and go braves 2011
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
12:49 pm
I don’t have much disagreement with Buster on his rotation rankings, but I’d have Atlanta and St. Louis ahead of Detroit and Milwaukee.
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
12:52 pm
Braverson111: There’s no rush on signing Prado long-term. I agree it would probably be a good move now, but also don’t see any reason the Braves wouldn’t wait another year to see him have a full, healthy season and see how he adapts to left field and what their needs look like at various positions going forward after this season. He’s only first-time arb-eligible, after all.
Slowhiteguy
December 22nd, 2010
12:53 pm
DOB , agreed. I thought Detroit was way too high. I am not sure I would even include them in the tope ten. Verlander is a stud..but to me the rest of the rotation questionable.
LJ
December 22nd, 2010
12:53 pm
rankings are fun, but it is December, we’ll see how it actually shakes out.
I Gave Her Undertaker eyes
December 22nd, 2010
12:53 pm
I thought B.o.B. album saved hiphop
Slowhiteguy
December 22nd, 2010
12:54 pm
I would probably take the Marlins rotation over the Tigers. Just saying.
richbrave
December 22nd, 2010
12:56 pm
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
11:46 am
richbrave Besides, I think the “win at any cost” mentality has passed away.
what makes you think that? the $200+ mil payroll?
No DAP, GEORGE STEINBRENNER………
Murph
December 22nd, 2010
12:57 pm
I’m not much of a Sabermetrics guy, so this talk of WAR and FIP is confusing to me. In my understanding IP plays a part in determining a pitcher’s WAR… so in looking at this last season for Cliff Lee, would his two CG losses skew his WAR? He went 9 in a game he lost 6-1 and 9 in a game he lost 4-1.
Ted M
December 22nd, 2010
12:58 pm
me too DOB
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
12:59 pm
rich brave, haha, gotcha.
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
1:00 pm
Am I the only one who looks at Cliff Lee’s stats and doesn’t see the “ace” part? He had two good seasons, one in 2005 and one in 2008. The rest of his career has been pretty mediocre. His ERA is a lot closer to 4 than it is to 3… the only thing that really jumps out at me is his IP, which averages over 200 per year. — Murph
Lee has been a different pitcher the past three seasons than previoiusly in his career, and the past three years are obviously more relevant because it is what he is now. He’s 32, so he should be able to maintain his current form, or close to it, for at least a few more years.
Compare his stats to Zack Greinke’s over the past three seasons, and tell me who’s more an ace.
Edge
December 22nd, 2010
1:04 pm
On the CD List I gotta call BS on Kanye West being included. doesn’t deserve to be on the list.
Also if you like Jamey Johnson that much, would suggest you checking out Jefferson native Brantley Gilbert, Jason Aldean currently has one of his songs poppified on the radio in My Kinda Party.
Gilbert is pretty solid country artist that actually sounds country and can be heard in Kick it In the Sticks doing something no one else has ever done so well….combining hard rock and country together.
I Gave Her Undertaker eyes
December 22nd, 2010
1:06 pm
^^^Edge I thought kanye had the albm of the year…very good album way better than 808s and heartbreak
UKUGA
December 22nd, 2010
1:10 pm
Anyone watch the Rex Ryan foot fetish videos and can tell me what the story is?
Anders, I’m looking your direction.
Murph
December 22nd, 2010
1:10 pm
Compare his stats to Zack Greinke’s over the past three seasons, and tell me who’s more an ace.
Oh, I never said Zack Greinke is an ace. If anything I’ve been questioning his “ace” status on here more than anyone. I don’t buy into his hype at all. I partially buy into Lee’s hype, although I don’t think he’s nearly as good as Halladay, despite whatever WAR or FIP numbers people throw at me.
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
1:10 pm
Murph, we agree on Zack, then. For others who might be curious, here are the stats for Lee and Greinke over the past three seasons (2008-2010):
Cliff Lee went 47-25 with a 2.96 ERA in 92 starts, with 17 complete games and five shutouts. He had a .255 opponents’ average with 533 strikeouts and 95 walks in 659 innings, and received 4.97 support runs per nine innings pitched in that period (and put up those numbers while pitching for four different teams, two in each league).
Zack Greinke went 39-32 with a 3.25 ERA in 98 starts, with 10 complete games and three shutouts. He had a .249 opponents’ average with 606 strikeouts and 162 walks in 651-2/3 innings, and received 4.43 support runs per nine innings pitched in that period (probably not nearly as low as some would suspect, right?).
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
1:14 pm
What are the huge differences that jump out to you about these 2 guys? Besides their ages.
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
1:16 pm
al, I actually bought that Future Islands album about a week ago at Decatur CD, after hearing some great things about that band. I hadn’t heard it before, but glad I got it. It’s strong. Could’ve made my list; the last 10 or so were so difficult to pick.
TennesseePaul
December 22nd, 2010
1:19 pm
Compare his stats to Zack Greinke’s over the past three seasons, and tell me who’s more an ace.
______AGE__W-L___G_GS_CG_SHO__ERA____IP__SO__BB_HR__WHIP_ERA+
Cliff 031 48-25 93 93 17 005 2.98 667.1 536 095 45 1.122 142
Zack. 026 39-32 98 98 10 003 3.25 651.2 606 162 50 1.194 133
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
1:22 pm
Arkansas Transplant, I wasn’t implying there were huge differences. Only one that jumps out is Lee’s been more consistent. Greinke had the one terrific season in 2009, posting a 2.16 ERA and otherwordly 1.073 WHIP between seasons of still-strong 3.47/1.275 in 2008 and 4.17/1.245 in 2010. He had 61 fewer strikeouts in only nine fewer innings last season than in 2009.
TennesseePaul
December 22nd, 2010
1:26 pm
He had 61 fewer strikeouts in only nine fewer innings last season than in 2009.
I read that article where he said he reduced the number of times he through his slider, I think it was, so as to save his arm for a different team. For whatever that is worth.
I was a bit surprised to see the two as close as they were. The career numbers are fairly similar as well. While Cliff has age against him, Zack has mental issues… so the futures could be similarly foggy…. in that if one were to argue Cliff, at his age, doesn’t have a potential of many more great years, Zack with his issues could very well have the same potential duration, despite his youth.
Edge
December 22nd, 2010
1:26 pm
UKUGA, I guess I put more stock into lyric and being from rural GA, I relate better to non-hip hop/r&b artists, plus Kanye is just an asshat all around that I refuse to listen to unless he happens to come on radio in my wife’s car, where I’m not allowed to change the station…
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
1:29 pm
Lee has definitely shown that he can take his game anywhere and consistently be expected to produce on or above levels he was expected to produce on.
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
1:29 pm
If that makes any sense?
Edge
December 22nd, 2010
1:30 pm
And to go with Baseball Argument. The Phillies have 2 late bloomers in Halladay and Lee, just took them some time to develop into what they are. Lee doesn’t have to be the Ace. They are like the Braves of the 90s somewhat, doesn’t matter who starts opening day.
I do however question the health of Oswalt who has been in a bit of a decline and am not certain he can be counted on to eat 200 innings now-a-days. Hamels is on again, off again type. Could he be set to have another bad year this year?
Lee is easily the best lefty in the game at the moment. Halladay, depends on how you look at him. Advanced Stats don’t really credit Groundball pitchers like him and Tim Hudson but simple stats are just as flawed so He’s up there, not sure if he’s all that simple stat viewers want to make him out to be. But he is good and he has a bulldog type work ethic and eats a ton of innings.
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
1:30 pm
So DOB, you dropped my 80 combined wins down just 8 to 72 ? I’m a Braves fan. I just face reality instead of being a Braves homer. I’ll split the difference with you big Dave and go with 108 Phillies wins if you care to continue the gentleman’s wager ? – Trickster
Wait, this morning you said 118 wins for the Phillies, and I said they’d be closer to 100 than 118. Now you’re saying 108?
By tomorrow will you have it at 98 wins for the Phillies?
Arkansas Transplant
December 22nd, 2010
1:30 pm
TennesseePaul,
Are you a lawyer? lol
Edge
December 22nd, 2010
1:32 pm
and according to advanced Stats, if Greinke is an ace…then you have to be willing to toss Tommy Hanson into that conversation too because he has a better FIP, xFIP than Greinke.
Over the past 4 years Greinke was between 6-7th in FIP and xFIP, so unless you are saying there are only 5-6 aces (including Big Red in that) in the majors then Greinke has to be an ace pitcher
Edge
December 22nd, 2010
1:34 pm
Anyone saying the Phillies got better…yes the pitching did, but they Lost Werth, gonna have to rely on a rookie. Can Jimmy Rollins and Polanco stay healthy? Can Ruiz put up another year like he did this year? How far back from the hip injury can Chase Utley come because consensus is that he most likely won’t ever be able to fully recover from it. How long before Ibanez and Victorino finally get exposed as the overrated players that they truly are?
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
1:34 pm
Speaking of music, all you CD-buying fans in Atlanta should try to get over to the Paste Magazine offices in Decatur before 4 p.m. They’re moving offices to smaller place, and dumping thousands of CDs at just $2 a pop. I found some great stuff this morning, and there weren’t many people there (though one guy cleaned out an impressive REM section before I could even check it out). They’ve got tons of rock, Americana, some jazz and hip-hop, etc.
Their offices are on E. College, just past Commerce and next to the Corner Pub.
GTSteve
December 22nd, 2010
1:40 pm
I could use a Corner Pub about now
ryan c
December 22nd, 2010
1:44 pm
2010….
Werth WAR: 5.0
Lee WAR: 7.1
Yes, they got better. Also, this process weeds out their #5 pitcher. Making this move probably added 4-5 wins for the season. At this point, they are probably a 103 win team.
Efrim
December 22nd, 2010
1:52 pm
I think Greinke is an ace. 3.25 ERA close to 700 innings in the American League isn’t an ace? You people have high standards for that then. How many starters under 30 would you have over Greinke? I think there are pitchers better than him, for sure, but the list isn’t as long as some here think.
T for Texas
December 22nd, 2010
1:55 pm
How long before Ibanez and Victorino finally get exposed as the overrated players that they truly are?
I don’t know that I would throw Victorino into the overrated category. He has had an OPS+ over 100 for the last three years and plays a mean CF. I had always thought of him as underrated on that Phillies team just because there are so many guys he takes a backseat to–but then again over or underrated would be dependent on how you see them rated in the first place, very subjective.
Lemke's Knuckleball
December 22nd, 2010
1:57 pm
Comparing the schedules next year, Braves and Phillies each play interleague games against the Mariners, Blue Jays and Rangers. The Braves also play the Angels and Orioles while the Phillies play the A’s and Red Sox. So through that alone, I would say the Braves should have a 2-3 game advantage.
Also, comparing the NL out of division games for each…
Braves: Padres (9), Rockies (8), Brewers (8), Dodgers (7), Giants (7), Cubs (7), D-Backs (5)…all other teams 6 games.
Phillies: Cardinals (9), Reds (8), Padres (8), Brewers (7), Cubs (7), Giants (7), Rockies (5)…all other teams 6 games.
Just based on the Phillies playing the Cards 9 times, even though the Braves play 3 more against the Rockies, I think preliminary there is a 1-2 game advantage there as well.
So there’s some optimism for you, I have given the Braves a 3-5 game advantage over the Phillies based on the schedule variances. Does that close up the gap for the number of wins the Phillies gained by signing Lee?
bravesgrl4life
December 22nd, 2010
1:57 pm
Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to Braves Fans and Blog Denziens, and, of course, to the Master, DOB!
I miss chatting with everyone during this off season, but aside from the Uggla trade, it’s been pretty boring. Can’t wait to rejoin the fray in February when ST starts up!
MFin04
December 22nd, 2010
2:00 pm
Sure is a lot of hate for an “easy” 95-100 win team that will win the NL East and more than likely have the most wins in the NL this year.
I get it, the Phillies are in our division and are a “rival”, but just because they are better than us doesn’t mean we don’t have potential to be a great team.
Murph
December 22nd, 2010
2:00 pm
http://www.fangraphs.com/teams.aspx?pos=all&stats=bat&lg=all&type=8&season=2010&month=0
To my unSaber’d mind it appears WAR doesn’t exactly predict or dictate ultimate success. Seems about as useful as assigning odds to the ponies at the track.
Gotta love the human factor in sports.
Efrim
December 22nd, 2010
2:03 pm
Gotta love the human factor in sports.
Yup, heart is all that matters. Get me a bunch of Francoeur’s and Bob Wickman’s to go to battle with…..
MFin04
December 22nd, 2010
2:03 pm
Braves have played well versus the Phillies 3 out of the last 4 years. The key is that the Braves are going to need to beat the Mets, Marlins, and Nats consistently.
8-10 vs the Phillies in 2010
10-8 vs the Phillies in 2009
4-14 vs the Phillies in 2008
9-9 vs the Phillies in 2007
Hillbilly
December 22nd, 2010
2:06 pm
I wanna jump but I’m afraid I’ll fall.
Hillbilly
December 22nd, 2010
2:06 pm
I wanna holler but the joint’s too small.
Jay Blaisdell
December 22nd, 2010
2:12 pm
Dave; you’re defense of the Braves with regard to how they and their East Div. rivals fared in the off-season market reads a little bit too much like you’re sitting in Wren’s lap. Would appreciate a more skeptical over-view rather than a pom-pom response.
Also; no man your age should have that long a musical list. It’s a bit too precious in its overt hipness.
T for Texas
December 22nd, 2010
2:15 pm
Easy there, Jay. Lap sitting, pom pom and precious make for an awful antagonistic post that has little basis.
cabravesfan
December 22nd, 2010
2:16 pm
Would appreciate a more skeptical over-view …
One would actually have to be skeptical in order to have a skeptical view…
The A Bomb
December 22nd, 2010
2:17 pm
Braves maxed out at 106 wins in ‘98 WITH 5 pitchers above 16 wins….
So don’t rush to judgment about Philly.
ALSO: Teams in the ’90s feared the Braves for whatever reason — maybe because each hurler got an extra 12 inches on the plate. No NL East team fears the Phillies.
Only given is Halladay. The other 3 are solid but not in the Halladay/Maddux automatic mode.
Let this thing play out. I’ll bet anyone we’re in serious striking distance on Labor Day.
Fredi's Fu Manchu
December 22nd, 2010
2:17 pm
Not sure where I saw it, but believe Greinke has best WAR of any pitcher last year or few. Agreed not Maddux, but think he’s getting slighted a little bit too much on this blog. If payroll were not a factor (I know it was), I think Braves would’ve been foolish not to pursue him especially given where they are right now (legit contender w/ 4-6 others). Prospects are better referred to as SUSPECTS.
Carl
December 22nd, 2010
2:21 pm
“Anyone saying the Phillies got better…yes the pitching did, but they Lost Werth, gonna have to rely on a rookie. Can Jimmy Rollins and Polanco stay healthy? Can Ruiz put up another year like he did this year? How far back from the hip injury can Chase Utley come because consensus is that he most likely won’t ever be able to fully recover from it. How long before Ibanez and Victorino finally get exposed as the overrated players that they truly are?”
The Giants won 92 games last year with a lineup that lacked speed and power. The Braves won 91 games last year with a lineup that lacked speed and power How did both teams do that? With great pitching. Guess what…now the Phils have great pitching. As much as I hate to say it, the Phils are going to run away with this division even with a “decline” from Rollins which I don’t see happening because he’s in a contract year and players tend to play better in contract years.
Phillistein
December 22nd, 2010
2:23 pm
Greetings and salutations from the City of Brotherly Love.
Well, you guys sure are obsessing over the Phillies rotation. I think if you continue to rationalize about it (them) you can almost convince yourselves.
Indeed, the Phillies have some issues; no righty power, no lefties in the bullpen, gettin a little old, offensive droughts.
However, if you’re going to have these issues it pays to have lights out pitching. And however you want to slice, dice, rationalize, the history of these 4 points to having a very solid rotation.
The issue with the Braves is thus:
1. Phillies
2. Braves
3. Marlins
4. Nats
5. Mutts
You’re NOT going to win the division. Just as every Phillie phan who visited you guys last year told you you weren’t going to win it in 2010.
The issue however, is that the WC WON’T come from the East in 2011. Both the Cardinals and the Brewers are going to give the Reds a serious run for the Central.
So, win the East or….go fishing in October.
Just my two cents
DAP
December 22nd, 2010
2:26 pm
edge, not sure i can agree with your assessment of the phils rotation. i certainly wouldnt call halladay a late bloomer, not sure where you got that. you might could consider lee one. and roy oswalt has not shown decline. he out pitched lee last season, and had yet another 200+ inning campaign. one season with an ERA just over 4.00 (a run higher than his lifetime ERA, by the way) does not make him in decline.
t for texas He has had an OPS+ over 100 for the last three years and plays a mean CF.
up until last year, he had roughly the same career as nate mclouth. id say he is a little overrated, but not a bad player.
Phillistein
December 22nd, 2010
2:27 pm
P.S. I picked the Nats over the Mutts cuz y’know….they got (cough) Ankiel
robb
December 22nd, 2010
2:28 pm
DOB, the Cold War Kids 2010 EP was immensely better than album #2 and much closer to Robbers & Cowards. They have a third full length due in Mar so that will be interesting. Any thoughts on Morning Benders or Broken Bells’ 2010 offerings?
T for Texas
December 22nd, 2010
2:31 pm
DAP–My perspective on VIctorino is that any CF, SS, or C that plays superior defense and contributes offensively at an above average level is a very valuable player. The same reasoning applies to refuting the arguments to trade McCann, although his value hinges more on offense, handling the pitching staff, and intangibles more than outright defensive prowess.
glove51
December 22nd, 2010
2:35 pm
Not even an honorable mention for the new one from The Hold Steady? I really liked that one. Was Spoon’s Transference on your list? I agree with you 100% on Black Keys being the best record of 2010. The were gerat in conert at The Cain’s Ballroom a couple of months back.
I don’t listen to enough new stuff anymore to rate a top 50 (or even 25 probably). I was mildly disappointed in my man Elvis’new disc, but he always, always keeps it interesting. Also thought Ryan Bingham’s new record was a slight disappointment.
Thanks for putting out the list and doing the blog and keeping it interesting. You (and Carroll) do a great job. Have a Merry Christmas.
Steve
December 22nd, 2010
2:40 pm
.
daniel buck
December 22nd, 2010
2:43 pm
I hope that Ted Turner will one day find the passion for baseball that would coax him into purchasing the Braves once again.. It will probably not happen but I remember a Christmas holiday in the early 90’s in which I heard a breaking news story on ESPN saying that “The Atlanta Braves have signed Cy Young award winner Greg Maddux to a contract”… I miss hearing things like that!!!!
David O'Brien
December 22nd, 2010
2:48 pm
Speaking of Greinke, Joe Posnanski wrote a great story about him last week. Poz has covered Greinke since he was a minor leaguer:
http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2010/12/being-there-with-greinke.html