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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
146 comments Add your comment
TampaGator
December 15th, 2010
10:10 pm
They should start a league just for the Yankees, Red Sox, and Phillies. Call it: “The best league money can buy.”
Jimbo Jones
December 15th, 2010
10:22 pm
@Thadsdad
Halladay wasn’t lights out in the postseason last year? I guess he should have thrown a perfect game instead of a no-no to impress you.
@Troy
If Chipper is playing, Fredi has already said he’s batting third. What we really need is a decent fielding, left handed CF that would allow Prado, Heyward, Uggla and McCann to bat 2, 3, 4, 5. Chipper would be great batting six but Fredi doesn’t plan to do that.
Mystery CF
Prado
Heyward
Uggla
McCann
Chipper
Gonzalez
Freeman
Troy
December 15th, 2010
10:56 pm
I know Chipper will be hitting 3rd. And my trades that i proposed are just a fantasy that obviously won’t happen. But you gotta admit, that would be a great lineup that i created. But i’m confident that the Braves are gonna be solid this year, the only ?’s is our young but talented bullpen, Chippers health and if F.F. can be a ROY condidate or just another Casey Kotchman. I think we know what we’ll get for the most part with everyone else.
Mark (another one)
December 15th, 2010
10:56 pm
Long term Prado will replace Chipper at 3rd, giving the braves solutions for the infield and catcher. They also have Shafer and Freeman to lock down two outfield positions. They will continue to work and fill slots, but Wren and company know how to manage player development.
Many of the young men on this list may not pan out, but trading them too early could give someone else the next Smoltz or Glavine. There’s no rush to trade them. Let them develop and prove their worth. The Braves have already laid their bets by signing them to contracts. Let them play out.
The real questions are for this year. Will Chipper recover enough to play 120 games? Who will win the backup SS role? Will some of the ‘unknowns’ pan out to fill the various roles? I am not as impressed with the Phil’s team as some appear to be. They will be strong in starting pitching and aged in the field. That takes away a defensive step here and there. Aches become pains. Their pen is also thin.
The Braves have an outstanding rotation, strong pen, and I believe they will have a good lineup that competes.
Ralph
December 15th, 2010
11:00 pm
I would be happy if I never heard the names Mcouth and Shaffer again except when they are traded or released.
Troy
December 15th, 2010
11:31 pm
mark, do you really have confidence that schafer will be an everyday outfielder in the majors??? cuz i dunno why you would. The Braves got their pitching for the future but i think they’ll have to sign a fielder or 2 when big contracts come off the books. Lowe, Chipper, and Hudson should all be gone in 3 years which will allow us to sign a position player each of the next three years.
Lineup by 2014
1. Sign a CF with Hudsons expiring contract
2. Prado 3B
3. Heyward RF
4. Uggla 2B (extend him with Chippers expiring contact)
5.Freeman 1B
6. McCann C
7. Sign a LF with Lowe’s expiring contract
8. Lipka? SS
Rotation
1. Teheran
2. Hanson
3. Delgado
4. Vizcaino
5. Minor
Jeff Treadway
December 16th, 2010
1:00 am
I love all this future talk of the braves. I think the braves can put a good team on the field this spring that should beat the Giants of this Season if Chipper is healthy and Mcclouth plays at 08-09 levels. what really makes me exicted is 2012 not 2014.
If Chipper retires 14m
KK off books 7.5m
Mcclouth 7m
Lowe 15m (last year should be able to trade)
Thats 43 million to play with
Jeff Treadway
December 16th, 2010
1:02 am
We Should be able to sign
lock up Brian Mcain, and uggla
and sign 2 big batts
Thadsdad
December 16th, 2010
1:17 am
True Jimbo, Halladay had his postseason no-no.
And when he shut the Giants out in the opening game of the NLCS, he got the Phils off to a flying start toward another berth in the World Series
Oh yeah, that’s right, he didn’t.
Just ask Cody Ross
Conyers Braves Fan
December 16th, 2010
4:31 am
Why all the hype over Freeman. He was not so great when called up last year. To me, he is certainly not a prospect that will ever develop into the type hitter a 1B should be meaning at least 30 hr and 100 rbi consistently. Examples are Vitto at Cincinnati, Caberra (sp) at Detroit, Adam Dunn,Tex at NY, and the Boston 1B. Does anyone think Freeman will ever hit like any of these players?
wjones
December 16th, 2010
7:01 am
“Conyers Braves Fan
December 16th, 2010
4:31 am
Why all the hype over Freeman. He was not so great when called up last year. To me, he is certainly not a prospect that will ever develop into the type hitter a 1B should be meaning at least 30 hr and 100 rbi consistently. Examples are Vitto at Cincinnati, Caberra (sp) at Detroit, Adam Dunn,Tex at NY, and the Boston 1B. Does anyone think Freeman will ever hit like any of these players?”
You are honestly going to put more stock in a handful of end-of-season at bats, when he barely even started a game, vs. what he did in a whole year in AAA, plus the bulk of his minor league career. Adding to the fact that he is slightly younger than Jason Heyward, who had a great rookie season despite not having nearly the AAA time that Freeman has had? Patience, fool. FYI, Henry Aaron hit 13 homers his rookie year. 21 years later he failed to hit 20 homers again. In between, a pretty decent career.
Steve
December 16th, 2010
8:06 am
On some things mentioned
Jurrgens – Others were right on about not trading him now. His value is a little low, so unless you can fill an immediate need you don’t trade for him. Outside of possibly CF, the Braves don’t have anything they see as an immediate need .. and they have too much money in McLouth not to give him another shot. Look for Jurrgens to be trade deadline fodder if the Braves are out of the race and Jurrgens is having a halfway decent year. Some other team will want him. If not, the Braves will try to get him signed for a few years with Lowe and Hudson only having two years left.
Kimbrel – Why is he only #5? The answer is that closers are typically not ranked as high. Many of those starters would also make top notch closers if they had to, but Kimbrel would likely not make a top ranked starter. Long story short, closers are easier to come by than top 3 starters.
Shafer – Leaving Shafer off the top 10 is embarassing for such a highly touted publication. He still has better tools than ANY other position player in the organization that doesn’t figure to be on the opening day roster. The backlash for his injury plagued season after a very succesful first series is just ridiculous. There are other players on this list who underperformed due to injury yet they are not getting that sort of backlash. Time to stop the Shafer hating, as this kid could very well be our starting CF by the end of the year. He will no doubt start in AAA to get consistent AB’s, unless he just has a monstrous spring. If Chipper isn’t ready by the opener, then Shafer may be our starting CF out of the gate with McLouth in left and Prado at 3rd. So knock off the hate.
Lack of position players. – While I will agree you can always trade pitching for established position players, the lack of quality in the field in the Braves organization is shocking. Looking thru their minor league teams they really only have a few guys that project to be major league players, and even those are questionable. Some of the players mentioned in this thread should not even be in a discussion of major league players and in an organization with more positional depth they would not even be thought of as possible major league players.
The problem with trading away young pitchers for position players is that you are typically getting veteran players who are either less than average or they are short term contract options. It starts the revolving door of having to continually trade away young pitching every year to fill this hole or that hole. Perfect examples would be Nate McLouth (though one could argue we gave up nothing for him), and the revolving door at first base that is hopefully about to end. I don’t like having to constantly spin off young pitching talent for average players or short term replacements. I want more players like Chipper Jones who we groom and keep (granted I don’t expect them to be HOF quality, but you get the point).
Steve
December 16th, 2010
8:11 am
Troy, to answer the question you posed Mark … I certainly think Shafer will be. You need to look past the injury marred years and remember he is only 24.
His skill sets are far above guys like McLouth, Diaz, Melky, and some of the other junk the Braves have been running out there. Not only that, I think he is now taking the Josh Hamilton approach and has learned a valuable lesson or two and is now on a fast track to get back to the Braves. If Chipper isn’t ready to go by end of spring, Shafer could very well make the opening day roster. I actually hope he doesn’t, as I think he needs more time, but we will see. I would love to have McLouth start off red hot and Chipper as well. Another season of full AB’s in the minors would be better for Shafer that 50% AB’s in an outfield rotation in the bigs.
Captain Obvious
December 16th, 2010
8:21 am
Look past his injury marred years? He has had ONE GOOD YEAR in professional baseball (2007). Brady Anderson was good for one year two.
Captain Obvious
December 16th, 2010
8:21 am
One year, too (not two).
jim
December 16th, 2010
9:19 am
I agree. The Braves are a long shot to contend for a WS title in 2011, but should have a very competetive span of years starting with 2012. By 2012, Heyward will be in his 3rd year and (hopefully) ready to become a premier player in the league. Freeman will have his rookie year behind him. (Not only did Hank Aaaron only hit 13 HRs as a rookie, but Mike Schmidt was barely above the Mendoza line in his rookie season. Koufax was just a guy with a lot of potential but little to show for it for the first 5 years in the majors. But we have bloggers here ready to write off Freeman based on 25 ABs in September.) Teheran and Delgado may be ready to join the rotation by 2012, Minor and or Beachy will have had a full year of ML experience, and money will be freed up from big contracts expiring.
Wren should not make any (probably futile) attempt to answer the Philly move for 2011, and hope for the best for this coming season with what we have, then make the necessary moves to be more competetive in 2012.
jim
December 16th, 2010
9:36 am
The big money teams in the AL East have hoarded a lot of the older talent with their huge payrolls, but the NL East is becoming a better balanced and more competetive division with some of the best young stars in baseball. The Phillies, like their AL counterparts are loaded with older talent, but in the period from 2009 -2012 the NL East will add the top talent in the minors (Hanson, Heyward, Stanton, Strasburg, Harper, Brown, and Teheran) plus other outstanding young players like Freeman, Minor, Kimbrel, Venters, Coghlan, Morrison, Desmond, Storen, Niese, Davis to add to young stars like Zimmerman, Reyes, Wright, Ramirez, Johnson, Nolasco, McCann, and Prado. Winning the Wild Card in this Division could be tough when one considers that the Reds and Cardinals are the only 2 dominant teams in a weak Central Division, and the Rockies and Giants look to be the class of the West. A big determinant in winning the WC could be the interleague schedule each team gets to face.
ChattaVol
December 16th, 2010
9:36 am
I think the Braves should trade A Gonzalez to the Cards for Pujols. He came up as a SS and would be a nice add to the middle of the line up.
Also, there was this kid on my son’s 7-8 year old little league team that has “electric” stuff, threw like 4 shut outs this past season. Maybe he could be the 5th starter with a good spring training.
Joey
December 16th, 2010
9:43 am
Fellow Braves fans, take note of #7 on the list, Vizcaino. He was the Yankees #1 pitching prospect who came over (along with Mike Dunn) in what most call the “Melky for Vasquez” trade. He was putting up similar numbers to Teheran last season in rome when he got an elbow injury which required rest, not surgery.
Dunn was sent to the Marlins in the Uggla trade.
stew
December 16th, 2010
10:08 am
Let’s move Lowe to Yanks. When does JJ become FA? JJ is a gutsy pitcher. Braun would be great. What would it take to get him? Phils only have 4 good position players Howard/Utley/Rollins/Victorino. Utley and Rollins are injury risks. Howard is on downside of career.
Lemke's Knuckleball
December 16th, 2010
10:49 am
There’s no way they trade Teheran, just like there is no way the Braves were ever going to trade Tommy Hanson. He’s not some overhyped prospect. The very first scouting report I read on Julio back in 2008 when the Braves signed him said he had future ace potential, but needed to learn how to pitch. Well, go look at his stats…
2008 – 6.60 ERA, 1.467 WHIP, 10.8 H/9, 10.2 K/9
2009 – 3.65 ERA, 1.180 WHIP, 8.6 H/9, 7.4 K/9
2010 – 2.59 ERA, 1.037 WHIP, 6.8 H/9, 10.0 K/9
Those are exactly the stats I would expect from a kid with raw natural ability that’s learning how to pitch. First year struck out a lot of hitters, but also gave up a lot of hits probably because of poor location and not mixing up speeds very well. Second year started focusing on location and changing speeds, hence less strikeouts, but better overall results with allowing fewer hits and runs. Third year, putting it all together, dominating hitters typically 2-3 years older.
That’s probably a broad interpretation of things from a person with zero first-hand knowledge, but I don’t think BA will get it wrong if they have him the top overall pitching prospect in baseball.
K with a K
December 16th, 2010
10:50 am
For all the people who want Braun…think about what you would want for J-Hey and then add another top prospect to that. That is what it would take for the Brewers to even pick up the phone.
Putuprshutup
December 16th, 2010
11:02 am
J-Hey is not yet a braun……..
jeff
December 16th, 2010
11:25 am
Until we realize it takes 3 OF’s to play baseball, it doesn’t matter. I love the Braves but are they so blind to realize it takes power hitting OF’s to win?????
jim
December 16th, 2010
11:36 am
Whatpower hitting outfielders did the Giants have this year? Torres had a career year, but did not hit with a lot of power. Burrell was claimed off the scrap heap and (much like Glaus) provided a couple months of power before slipping into a slump in the playoffs. Ross was a post deadline acquisition picked off the waiver wire that got hot during the playoffs. This was not exactly Maris, Mantle, and Berra of the ‘61 Yanks.
jim
December 16th, 2010
11:41 am
Stew,
I recall Ruiz and Ibanez getting a lot of key hits for the Phillies last year. Especially in the last two series it was Ruiz and Ibanez that got THE key hits to win 5/6. I doubt if Hudson et al will minimize the danger of the Philly lineup as much as some fans posting here.
jim
December 16th, 2010
11:50 am
Polanco is not chopped liver either, and Dominick Brown was considered one of the top 3or 4 position player prospects in the minors last year. Don’t try to rationalize outcomes that you would like to believe are true!
DawgDad
December 16th, 2010
12:13 pm
Picking up Lee will make the Phils very tough to deal with the next couple of years, but beyond that age starts becoming a factor with Halladay, Oswalt, and Lee while the Braves pitching projects to be very solid beyond Hudson and Lowe. This year, the Phils could have four 20-game winners but guys like Oswalt and Hamels might fall on hard times, too. Polanco and Ibanez are getting up there, and who knows what kind of a season Rollins might put up. Bullpens matter, and at some point sanity might rein in Atlanta with Chipper retiring and Uggla moving off second base.
As is, if the Braves were talking about playing Uggla somewhere other than second base and leaving Prado there I’d say the team has a chance. With Uggla at second (and Chipper at third) the infield defense will be a problem for the groundball pitchers on the staff (Hudson, Lowe, in particular).
ramblingman
December 16th, 2010
1:17 pm
(shaking his head)
Not sure what to do with all the intelligent posts showing up instead of the usual chicken little “we’re all gonna die” junk.
Nice. Keep up the good analysis, people.
scottbravesfan
December 17th, 2010
12:43 am
Troy,
Julio Teheran will not be in the Braves rotation to start next year and the Brewers would not do that trade for Braun. They can get more for Braun than what you offered.
bobbymahlon,
Jair Jurrjens is not a free agent after next season. Jurrjens will not be a free agent until after the 2013 season.
And the reason that Kimbrel is the 5th ranked prospect in the Braves system is that he has a history of being wild and Julio Teheran, Randal Delgado, Freedie Freeman, and Mike Minor all have higher ceilings than Craig Kimbrel does. Especially Teheran and Delgado.
scottbravesfan
December 17th, 2010
12:44 am
Jeff,
How many power hitting outfielders did the Giants have? Hell how many power hitting outfielder did the Yankees have in 2009?
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 17th, 2010
9:22 am
Conyer Braves Fan – lol lol lol, look at what some of the GREAT 1B in mlb history did in their 1st few games, Mattingly etc were poor to avg in their 1st years and then BOOM,
Freeman had 24 AB a massive 24 AB…
“Your AND IDIOT”
Jeremy
December 17th, 2010
12:38 pm
Ok, we don’t need to rush into trading ANYBODY right now. We have a solid team, and we need to let the pitching develop and see what we have first. The last time we rushed into a trade we screwed ourselves and helped the Rangers to the ALCS this past season. Can you imagine what our team would look like now if we had been patient and not made that trade? Imagine this….we could have Elvis Andrus at SS now if we wanted. I do like the sound of that. We would have Neftali Feliz closing games for us. Jarrod Saltalamacchia would be catching when McCann needed rest and could be playing first base occasionally also. Keeping all of these players could have gave us some playroom at other positions and could have possibly allowed us to trade Escobar for a better outfielder then we have right now. So, let’s be patient Braves fans. We won 14 pennants in a row once, let’s not rush things. We’ll be fine
bobbymahlon
December 17th, 2010
5:35 pm
Scottsbravesfan : Here is and example for you.
Craig Kimbrel W – L ERA Innings Hits BB SO
4 – 0 0.44 20.2 9 16 40
Post Season 0 – 1 2.08 4.1 1 1 7
Mike Minor 3 – 2 5.98 40.2 53 11 43
It looks to me outside of walks the top side favors Kiimbrel.Did you ever see Craig pitch, he has more stuff and a better fast ball than Minor if you don’t believe me ask Billy Wagner. Billy says he has more stuff than anyone on the Braves bullpen. I think he is a better judge than you or I don’t you.
bobbymahlon
December 17th, 2010
5:38 pm
Sorry the comparisons didn’t come out the way I typed them.
Graham
December 17th, 2010
11:07 pm
For everyone asking about/saying the Braves have to get a 3B prospect, they have one in Edward Salcedo. He was one of the most high profile international free agent signings in years for the Braves (if not ever) and even though he struggled last his raw talent is off the charts and the fact that he’s a 19 year old who just came to a new country has to be taken into account. He was likely left off of this list because of his lack of production thus far and considering he is probably a mid-2013 call up at the earliest. Also the Yankees wouldn’t pull a Jurrjens for Gardner swap. JJ’s stock has never been lower as he’s coming off injury and Gardner’s has never been higher, as cost controlled, gold glove 50 steal outfielders dont grow on trees. Kimbrel is lower on this list than some think he should be because this is talking about potential value. A true ace starter, all star 1B, and left handed #3 starter have more value than a potential closer with a visible ceiling of Wagner, yet a visible basement of John Rocker.
Billreef
December 18th, 2010
2:21 am
the idea that teheran is a better prospect than kimbrel is laughable. kimbrel is just flat unhittable. dominating in the show already.
Braves Fan Since "80
December 18th, 2010
10:36 pm
Elvis andrus is where he should be poor defense and all…… he is not as good as gonzo…. He played in a hitters park, a homerun park in Texas and hit less homeruns than two of his pitchers (interleague) Where is salty?……BTW Gonzo is not very good
don
December 19th, 2010
12:24 pm
I hope Wren doesn’t see this list. If he does, he is likely to include five or so of them in a trade for a one year rental of a player with ties to Georgia who he believes will take a hometown discount for a longterm contract. Let’s hope history doesn’t repeat itself. Keep Wren away from telephones.
don
December 19th, 2010
12:27 pm
Let the Phillies rotation produce over an extended time. Then they may be compared to the Braves’s rotations of the 1990s. Overall the Phillies starters aren’t that young. Only Halladay is a H of F prospect at present and his credentials are not overwhelming at present. Longetivity of superiority is what makes one a H of Fer. The Phillies have a long, and unlikely, way to go.
Hudson not #1
December 21st, 2010
12:18 pm
How can anyone not say that Tim Hudson isn’t the Brave’s #1 Starter?What are You Thinking?
Bah Humbug Philly!
December 21st, 2010
12:22 pm
S.F. showed that a team with 3 real good starting pitchers can beat a team of Whiffers anytime!Reference the Philly Whiffers and the Texas Swingers!
Kimbrel a Prospect?
December 21st, 2010
12:26 pm
How can Kimbrel be a prospect when he has proven big league experience?Kimbrel will be Atlanta’s closer and VENTERS WILL BE THE SET-UP MAN………Not Bad For a Couple of Prospects??Watch out Philly cause the BRAVE’S ARE UP AND COMING TO GET YA!
SoCalBrave
December 21st, 2010
12:51 pm
@don: When has Wren given up any top prospects to get a player? The only instance I can think of is Flowers for Vazquez. If anything, he’s too conservative, unlike Shurtholtz.
Leo
December 22nd, 2010
3:23 pm
Here is my proof that Bonds never used steroids:
1. Bonds has ALWAYS tested CLEAN.
2. EIGHT years of a FEDERAL investigation has more than confirmed that NO evidence concerning Bonds and steroids exists.
3. Bonds had his best offensive seasons in 2002-2004 WHILE testing clean, WHILE he and BALCO were the most scrutinized people on earth.
Whats the case against him?
Well, lets see, its not the the major news sources all haven’t lied that Bonds ADMITTED taking steroids. They release the entire grand jury transcript right in their face.
Its not like the judges have already called out the Feds for making up evidence three times, once trying to pass B.B. for three Bonds (the Feds response was “we didn’t know B.B. could stand for something other than Barry Bonds”), and testing ANONYMOUS samples for substances banned AFTER the Grand Jury Testimonies.
Its not like judges have not accepted ONE piece of evidence from the Feds yet, and have even gone as far as calling their “evidence” (and I quote) “inadmissable heresay”.
Its not like almost every other major player in the MLB has been caught taking steroids EXCEPT Bonds. They even complained that Bonds was taking “undetectable steroids” LMAO. When the Feds investigation ONLY Bonds.
Its not like they spent 5 years and millions of tax dollars to investigate the Clear and the Cream, only to find out TWO WEEKS before the trial that it wasn’t even classified as a steroid during the Grand Jury testimonies.
Its not like they very publically accused Bonds of cheating in 2001, THEN made the rule that steroids was considered cheating in the MLB in 2002 AFTER calling Bonds a cheater. And just four years before when McGwire AND Sosa shattered a then 40 year old HR record, with McGwire OPENLY on PEDs, they called the “the “SAVIOR of baseball”.
They claimed that they were concerned about Bonds and steroids after Bonds broke the record because they wanted to preserve “the sanctity of the game”. And just a couple of years before, they juiced the balls and lowered the mounds for the very reason of “seeing more balls fly out of the park”.
And its not like the MLB continues to treat ARod like a hero when he was been CAUGHT taking steroids this year, after the ALWAYS lied about NOT taking steroids before.
And now they celebrate the Yankees full of PROVEN steroid users winning the championship.
Thoughts?
BAM
Jack J.
December 24th, 2010
8:47 am
Lets hope that Freddie G. plays F. Freeman like B.C. played J. Hayward and Freedie has a year close to that! As for other help at all positions let S.T. settle this in Fla. I’m picking Goozo ss to have a MVP year for the Bravo,s. compition at st eill be good for who ever makes the trip to Atl. A win.. win.. setting for all the Brave real FANS!