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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
6,221 comments Add your comment
BravesFanChris26
December 14th, 2010
8:31 am
Let me clarify my position on the latest occurrence.
On paper Phillies are the best team starting pitching wise, but they still lack in a lot of areas. Their bullpen lacks, they need a right handed bat period, they’re too hefty with lefties in the lineup and even though they have some elite offensive players in Utley and Howard, let’s not forget they are one year older and have come off a injury year (even with Phillies making it to the post season, that point is irrelevant to my point anyways) and Werth was more important to Phillies than most people think.
They’ll have to trade some people to help the payroll keep Lee intact with their rotation. Blanton and/or Ibanez could be traded which could weaken them even more (not saying losing either will be catastrophic by any means, but it can definitely weaken them more). Their bullpen isn’t that lethal. And Halladay/Oswalt/Lee/Hamels are BEATABLE and not UNBEATABLE, just specifically ask Giants who beat both Halladay and Lee (beat Lee twice I might add).
Yes there are questions with Braves too, but I’m not saying Braves are a shoe in to win NL East. I’m just saying Phillies don’t scare me because while they have the potential to have the best rotation in the NL if not the whole majors next season, they have more question marks that hang over them like a dark cloud until/unless they fix losing Werth who without a doubt was/is more important to Phillies than anyone probably thinks. Werth was the one who broke up the lefties in the lineup and complemented the lefties nicely. They do not have that luxury anymore. Pitchers will start walking the big threats or pitching around them with the threat of a Werth behind them.
Braves/Phillies competition from my point of view….
Rotation: Phillies win (while Braves have a very good and solid rotation, Phillies do beat them)
Bullpen: Braves win (hands down in my view)
Offense: Wash (even with the question marks in Chipper, adding Uggla with the likes of McCann, Heyward and Prado is just as good as an Utley/Howard combo, lets face it, they are Phillies offense)
Depth Of All Roster: Braves win (not questionable in my view)
While I’m not proclaiming or giving Braves the NL east and while Phillies are technically still the team to beat, Phillies are not invincible. They can be beat and while their rotation has gotten better, their deficiencies can’t be over looked. Yes there’s a lot of IFs with Braves, but Phillies aren’t flawless.
dpelfrey
December 14th, 2010
8:33 am
Over $150 million committed to 11 players next year. I didn’t know the Phillies had enough revenue streams to pull off a payroll like that.
Lee $24 mil
Howard $20 mil
Hallady $20 mil
Oswalt $16 mil
Utley $15.3 mil
Lidge $12 mil
Ibanez $11.5 mil
Blanton $10.5 mil
Hamels $9.5 mil
Rollins $8.5 mil
Victorino $7.5 mil
BravesFanChris26
December 14th, 2010
8:33 am
And that’s not scratching the surface with the potential of Delgado/Terehan possibly coming up this coming season at some point.
JerseyGil
December 14th, 2010
8:33 am
My Father always said….Let’s play Ball…that where the game are decise…not in Paper..lot of think can happen…Look the Mets 1989….Grat Rotation (Gooden,Viola,Cone,Darling) never make it to the Playoff.
Bama Brave
December 14th, 2010
8:33 am
I have to agree. I think if people fill the stands night in and night out we could have the money for the CARL CRAWFORDS of the world!
TommyP
December 14th, 2010
8:36 am
BravesFan: No team has ever been invincible. Every team has question marks and weaknesses.
The Phils are easily the team to beat in the East. Bottom line. Right now even knowing they need to deal Blanton. They’ll probably get a reliever for Blanton or an OF.
Couch Tater
December 14th, 2010
8:37 am
So, Carroll writes a story about “the locker jinx”. The same day the Phillies find money. Coinkydink?
dpelfrey
December 14th, 2010
8:42 am
Nevermind, I see where the Stros are paying $11 mil toward Oswalt, so they could conceivably work a payroll around $140 million by unloading Blanton and still fill out the 25-man roster.
I wonder how this will impact 2012 though. They have Rollins, Howard and the entire bullpen hitting free agency and Hamels due for a big time arb raise. But I guess Oswalt comes off the books, so they may be fine. Crap, I wish the Phillies management sucked like the Mets.
ATLfan15
December 14th, 2010
8:44 am
@Bravesfanchris26: nice post. i agree, they are beatable…the Giants proved that. but their rotation just got A LOT tougher to handle. i didn’t think it was possible, but signing Lee made them even more formidable than last year.
the only caveat i would give the Phillies is that pitching arms don’t last forever…and Lee is due for some elbow trouble any minute now.
why is Blanton the odd man out in that rotation? he has better numbers than Kyle Kendrick. just curious…and i’m sure there will be some Phillies fans here real soon to gloat over their new acquisition.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
8:44 am
Good luck to Cliff Lee, he took a chance to go somewhere he loves over going to the Stinkees, well done I say, now let us batter them when it counts like they did to us in the 1993 playoffs when we had a BIG 4
JerseyGil
December 14th, 2010
8:47 am
ATLfan15
why is Blanton the odd man out in that rotation? he has better numbers than Kyle Kendrick. just curious…and i’m sure there will be some Phillies fans here real soon to gloat over their new acquisition.
Simple…17 million own to Blanton…
O.J.
December 14th, 2010
8:48 am
TommyP, I never said their staff wasnt dominate, I just said that ours can match up just fine, and I meant that our 3, 4, 5 starters are young and inexperienced.
MikeInFl
December 14th, 2010
8:48 am
dpelfrey, I think they’re much higher than that. According to COTS, they’re at $146.7 mil even taking into account income from Houston on Oswalt, and that’s BEFORE siging Lee or filling out the remaining half dozen or so roster spots.
ramblingman
December 14th, 2010
8:51 am
Ugh. Phillies got better yesterday. I love my Braves and support them, but while hoping for the best, I have to admit that the Phils got better.
TommyP
December 14th, 2010
8:51 am
One last thing for people talking about how the Braves match up against Lee, the Phils, etc. head to head.
Baseball is a 162 game season. If the Braves win 11 out of 18 vs. the Phils head to head, it’s not that big a deal. It’s the other 144 games that will separate the two. It doesn’t really matter how the teams fare head to head unless their is tremendous disparity.
Over 162 games with Halladay, Lee, Hamels and Oswalt, barring injury (and that goes for EVERY team), the Phils will roll in 2011. Just like 2010. Just like 2009. Like 2008. Like 2007.
And for the lineup bashing of the Phils…. Nate McLouth. One of worst starters in baseball last year??? Close. Chipper? Please. A rookie Freeman. Gonzalez? Oh boy.
The Braves are in good shape for competing for the Wild Card. And we all know how that team can win the Series.
Division chances? Not so good.
Naf Sevarb
December 14th, 2010
8:54 am
Guys if last year was any lesson there are no sure things in Baseball. One error here a home run there and you lose a game and a series. I still dont think they will win much more games than they did last year and will have ZERO room to add any players at the trade deadline if one or two guys go down. One pitcher doesnt add that many extra wins to this team.
ATLfan15
December 14th, 2010
8:55 am
@JerseyGil: the Phils don’t seem to be too concerned with money. $17 mil is a drop in the bucket to what went down yesterday, but i see your point.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
8:56 am
I read all of the comments poo pooing the Filthies offense, did Ryan Howard and Victorino and their godly 2B suddenly die, nope and thei catcher nope, they are an awesome team and we will be playing hard to compete but with a healthy Chipper and JJ back we can do it as we only have to play them 18 times per season, we did well the last 2 years agains them, now we need to kill the NATS, the pesky Fish and Pirates etc
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
8:57 am
BTW anyone else like JOBA for Lowe, as much as I like Lowe, we could clear a pile of loot, get another RH bat and reinvigorate a guy who has star potential as a SP or RP
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
8:57 am
Geez, refresh my memory here…werem’t Halladay, Hamels, and Oswalt supposed to the “best post-season rotation in history” last year, guaranteed to take the Phils to the Promised Land? Oops.
Now, the addition of Lee is supposed to make them even more of a lock for 2011 (a good thing, I suppose, since the “lock” of last year had some broken tumblers)? Some of you guys seem to want to have those four guys just go odds-evens for the Cy Young, and hand over the division title with a whimper.
Please don’t tell me I have to deal with this whining give-up horse-bleep even in the offseason. It’s bad enough to get a “Ballgame!” in the bottom of the first, without a bunch of “realists” crying in their bowl of sad before Christmas.
MikeInFl
December 14th, 2010
8:58 am
Apparently, the Phils are close to trading Blanton to the Red Sox, which makes very little sense. But that’s what Heyman is reporting. (boy, if I was a cynic, I’d wonder if the Red Sox didn’t encourage the Phils to spend on Lee, assuring them that they’d “help out” by taking Blanton off their hands… but nah, that couldn’t be, could it?)
DaveInDallas(NC)
December 14th, 2010
8:59 am
I don’t know if Frank Wren is the type GM who makes a deal based on what his chief rival has done, but if he were one would be in order. That Phillies rotation is nasty. Roy Halladay, Cliff Lee, Roy Oswalt, Cole Hamels. That is the best four man rotation in baseball. Atlanta has a good rotation but it doesn’t touch Philadelphia’s. I think the Braves can compete with the Phillies IF Chipper Jones bounces back from injury and IF whoever plays centerfield is at least semi-productive. I still think Atlanta has the best shot at the wild card in the NL with what they have. I don’t think they can overtake the Phillies. Instead of an offensive juggernaut, Ruben Amaro Jr. now has a team fashioned in the image of the Braves teams from glory days…pitching and defense.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
9:00 am
ncscoots – I am NOT conceding or crying and you are right we have to play the games and if we look at our pile we just have to beat the other kids as they come along and try to climb it,
if we do better against just the NATS and FISH we will get to 96 wins
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
9:03 am
Instead of an offensive juggernaut, Ruben Amaro Jr. now has a team fashioned in the image of the Braves teams from glory days…pitching and defense.
…with 81 games in a ballpark designed for just the opposite.
MikeInFl
December 14th, 2010
9:03 am
No need for Wren to over-react. Since the Phillies already have the Greatest Rotation in the History of Baseball, there’s not much future in trying to match it.
As to the offense, what’s the rush? We don’t really know what our weaknesses might turn out to be. Maybe Chipper can’t go, and we need a 3B or a LF; maybe CF will be a bust and we need to address that; or maybe Freeman won’t be ready, and 1B will be the need.
Or maybe everything will click and there’s no need to do anything.
Regardless, the baseball season is very, very long. Wren shouldn’t panic over Lee. Play a couple of months, and evaluate needs in June or July.
Dadgum......
December 14th, 2010
9:06 am
After waking up to the stunner about Lee going to the Filthies I decided to see what the blog night owls were saying. Most were reasoned posts by the usual blog “experts”. I agree that the Phillies are the unquestioned favorites again. I will also say we won the season series when Lee was pitching in ‘09 with the Phillies. The Braves’ problem is they can’t beat the Nats. Until we can handle the Nats and teams like the Bucs and until we do we aren’t going to win the division.
Also the Braves still have the biggest problem in Chipper not Lee. Chipper holds all the mystery over the team and a mystery that apparently won’t become clearer until much later. Can’t help but think of Favre and Chipper at the same time. Farve didn’t know when to leave (never should have returned) and to me Chipper doesn’t either. Maybe he has earned that right but things would be much clearer if Chipper bowed out now than to be watered down liability struggling to play 100 games. Sure Lee is a Philly but Chipper is a Brave and that is as much a concern to Braves fans than Lee. Hope I’m wrong.
JerseyGil
December 14th, 2010
9:06 am
ATLfan15
Phillis has one of the best TV pkg…with the biggest Cable Provider in the Nation “Comcast” …also thei stadium always sold out, Marketing is big here in the community with the Big ‘Phillis Phanatic’..
So money is not their concern…Own by a group of Good Fan Preside by Mr. montgome
JerseyGil
December 14th, 2010
9:08 am
For those they don’t know me…..I not a Phillis Fan…I’m Another Braves Fan Live in Phillis territory.
TennesseePaul
December 14th, 2010
9:08 am
I’m late to this party, but what a bit of news to wake up to. Halladay, Hamals, Oswalt and Lee. I don’t think the Braves ever had that deep of a rotation during The Run. And the Braves had some deep rotations, but that is a friggin strong rotation. And it has a strong line up to back it up. The Phillies have easily retained the NL East “Team to Beat” title going in to 2011.
The Game isn’t Over, as some would like to say. This is baseball, anything can happen.
On the other side, I’m cheering for the Phillies with this move. I wish I could have seen Cashman’s face when he got the news. The Phillies stole the Yankees big off-season acquisition. HA! That’s so friggin awesome. Would have loved the Braves to have done it, but with perpetual negative payroll expansions that’s not likely. Still though. The Yankees lose. And that makes me happy.
MaconBraves (RIP)
December 14th, 2010
9:10 am
No doubt the Phillies now have the best rotation in baseball (they may have already had the best, but there isn’t any doubt now). However, unless all those guys can throw 225 innings plus this year, their bad bullpen is likely to be exposed for some stretches. Their offense has taken a step back this offseason and they weren’t world beaters last season. If Utley, Rollins, or Howard continue to have health issues, the offense could be really bad.
On paper, the Phillies are (and should be) the hands down favorite to win the NL East this year, but that doesn’t dampen my enthusiasm for the Braves season. The Braves still have a very, very good pitching STAFF (not just rotation or bullpen, but both), an improved offense with Uggla added, and a good bench (even with Omar gone).
Rather than harp on what the Phillies could do this year, I’m gonna enjoy watching MY team put a very good, competitive product on the field and let the season play out. Calling BALLGAME in December isn’t just silly….it’s just stupid.
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
9:14 am
It’ll be hard to break through the clutter of posts today, but here is my two cents….
Clearly, an amazing move for the Phillies. I remember a few bloggers here who stated that the Phillies did not have enough wealth to sustain a payroll in the 150+ range. Well, it looks like they will be in the 160-170 million dollar range for 2011 and there is little reason to think that it won’t continue. Halladay, Lee, Hamels, Oswalt and Kendrick/Worley/Who cares is the best rotation in baseball, hands down. Better than the Braves, better than the Giants, better than the Red Sox. Just better than any team. I do believe that their offense will suffer from being too left handed, and there may be another move in short order that changes that. Not saying that they will now deal one of their starters, but I do think they will attempt to get a right handed bat like Carlos Quentin or someone. Given how “win now” they are, it wouldn’t shock me to see them trade Domonic Brown. Anyway, they are a 100 win team, barring injuries, but the injuries thing is important, as they are one of the older teams in the league now.
Okay, now to the biggest losers of this signing. Not the Yankees. Not the Rangers. But the entire National League East. How can anyone disagree with that? The Yankees are still a very good baseball team. The Rangers are in a terrible division and could still make a move or two to make themselves better for 2011. The NL East will now have to suffer for a couple of seasons, and as a Braves fan, it sucks. And it’s not only because of the rosters. The Braves have a very good team and should still be in the hunt for the Wild Card. I have no doubt that they will be the favorite to win the WC by many people come Spring Training. It’s the long term effects that concern me. The following is my overall point of this rant:
The Braves ownership and front office must come to the realization that the only way they are going to compete with the Phillies and the other financial monster in the division(I’ll get to them in a sec) is to spend money in the Rule IV draft, international signing scene, and player development overall. Signing relievers and giving up first round draft picks will not get this team to the forefront of the division. They need to spend more money in the draft…bottom line.
Now, I do agree with BH’s comment late last night:
Meanwhile, our owners sit there with their thumbs up their arses. That assumes of course that we actually have owners that are human who have thumbs and arses.
They do need to increase payroll, or at least, get payroll flexibility. I’m not sure how they do it, and I don’t know what the right number is to spend, but they are going to have a tough time competing with the Phillies AND Mets if they don’t open up the purse strings. People will laugh at me for the Mets comment, but the fact of the matter is that they have something like 60 million in guaranteed contracts for 2012, which means they will be a MUCH improved bunch very soon. They have the financial means that we can’t compete with and I do believe that the Phillies spending spree will increase the likelihood that they finally spend more. It’s a scary situation for the Braves. I’m not sure what it’s like to be Blue Jays fan……
dpelfrey
December 14th, 2010
9:15 am
“MikeInFl…I think they’re much higher than that. According to COTS, they’re at $146.7 mil even taking into account income from Houston on Oswalt, and that’s BEFORE siging Lee or filling out the remaining half dozen or so roster spots.”
I was looking at the 2010 spreadsheet on Cots with the 2011 projection, I didn’t see the link to the 2011 projection on the Phils main page on Cots. Yeah, that’s crazy. They almost have to unload Blanton and Ibanez to get around $150 and pay raises for Dobbs, Francisco and Kendrick.
If they stay healthy, the Phils should win 95 without breaking a sweat. However, a few key injuries and possibly another Lidge implosion and they could be the 2009 Mets.
MikeInFl
December 14th, 2010
9:16 am
I don’t think the Braves ever had that deep of a rotation during The Run.
1998 Braves rotation was not too bad:
Maddux: 34 starts, 2.22 ERA
Glavine: 33 starts, 2.47 ERA
Smoltz: 26 starts, 2.90 ERA
Neagle: 31 starts, 3.55 ERA
Millwood: 29 starts, 4.08 ERA
Dadgum......
December 14th, 2010
9:16 am
In a short season like the playoffs the Lee signing will have much more significance but over 162 games maybe somebody on the Phils staff has a down year like JJ had for us last year. Maybe we have someone like Beachy really shine in ‘11. The pitching isn’t what really worries me especially if our middle relief remains stellar. The offense is still the big mystery and Chipper is front and center of that. Baseball is all about offense over 162 games. Somehow get to 5 runs. Great pitching will win the short series like San Fran did and that is where Philly hopes Lee will make the difference.
Daybed Wagmoe
December 14th, 2010
9:18 am
BravesFanChris26 — Good points. While the Lee signing gives the Phillies the best rotation in all of baseball, it doesn’t give them a right-handed bat or shore up their bullpen or bench. To me, though, this kind of acquisition seems to be one that rubs off on other areas of the team — starting pitching is able to go deeper into games, which takes some stress off the bullpen and keeps them fresher. If the starter’s only giving up 2 or 3 runs a game, there’s a little less pressure on the offense.
Braves reaction — Pitching is set, so I think signing a strong 4th outfielder becomes more important. Chipper’s bat must be in the lineup, and if he can’t be in there because of injury, they’ll need someone who can still do damage when Prado’s playing 3rd. I don’t think anybody can completely make up for Chipper’s absence, but someone who can still do damage.
Tommy T
December 14th, 2010
9:19 am
Amaro Jr. has screwed the Phillies for years to come. Admittedly, they will be very good in ‘11 and probably ‘12, but beyond that they’re going to be paying big money to old players without the revenue to support that (i.e. the Yankees). When Lee starts losing velocity and his fastball starts looking like his change-up, IMO he’s going to get lit up. I think the Phillies just did Texas a huge favor.
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
9:20 am
If Utley, Rollins, or Howard continue to have health issues, the offense could be really bad.
Even that might not be necessary. Werth is gone, Ibanez will be 39, and there’s very little chance that Ruiz will be able to duplicate his career year.
One of the things that has always made that offense seem so formidable was its offensive depth: even getting past the middle of the order didn’t guarantee that you were out of the woods. As it now stands, that’s unlikely to be the case any longer.
Wow...
December 14th, 2010
9:21 am
The delusions are running wild..
If the Phillies offense is questionable, what in the hell does that make the Braves offense? Their offense is still much better than the Braves.
Wow...
December 14th, 2010
9:23 am
Dan Uggla didn’t suddenly make the braves an offensive juggernaut
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
9:28 am
efrim – the Mets ownership has MAJOR financial issues, their huge development across the road from my apt has stopped after 3 years of work and is just a foundation, heard financing is dead cause they have cashflow issues, other problems etc and that will reflect on the mutts for years to come
TennesseePaul
December 14th, 2010
9:30 am
MikeInFL: Yeah, the Braves had some strong rotations, but something about this Phillie rotation seems more imposing. I never thought of Neagle or Millwood for that matter, as an “ace.” But Cole, Roy, Roy, and Lee… all of those guys I thought of as aces. All of those guys have been aces. All of those guys are still aces.
Efrim: tough time competing with the Phillies AND Mets if they don’t open up the purse strings
I think the Nats might start cropping up as a payroll to watch. With the arrival of Strasburg, Harper, Espinosa, Zimmerman… That team could land some nice big stars and really start to compete.
It’s sad to think that in a short while the Atlanta Braves will be mingling in the crowd labeled “lower income team” especially in the NL East. They’ll only be able to boost about the ability to out spend the Marlins, but really, few teams can’t.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
9:31 am
efrim – it also appears NY city is taking action against Sterling Mets/Wilpons etc for multi-millions in taxes for past Shea and Citifield, also hearing tax problems at the NY state level etc
TennesseePaul
December 14th, 2010
9:32 am
the Mets ownership has MAJOR financial issues
Doubtful this will result in the Mets reducing their payroll to $60M a year going forward. The Mets will still be able to manage $100M payrolls going forward, even with financial issues. They’ll be players in the free agent market. Doesn’t mean they’ll be wise players, but they’ll be players.
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
9:33 am
What I’d consider “delusional” is thinking that the Phils will get 1200 innings out of their starters and score 800+ runs, to boot. Honestly, that’s the tenor of some of these posts today. Good grief.
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
9:33 am
the Mets ownership has MAJOR financial issues, their huge development across the road from my apt has stopped after 3 years of work and is just a foundation, heard financing is dead cause they have cashflow issues, other problems etc and that will reflect on the mutts for years to come
Whatever man, they are spending 130 million this year. Just because they haven’t signed free agents doesn’t mean they are spending money. They sped 40 million more than us, and I wouldn’t be surprised if they had a bigger payroll in 2012.
I think the Nats might start cropping up as a payroll to watch. With the arrival of Strasburg, Harper, Espinosa, Zimmerman… That team could land some nice big stars and really start to compete.
Yup, owners with big pockets and a developing farm system. A scary thought.
N8
December 14th, 2010
9:33 am
“…with 81 games in a ballpark designed for just the opposite.” scoots
You mean like the Launching Pad for the first half of the 90’s? Braves pitchers (just like Phillies pitchers in their bandbox), seemed to handle it just fine.
Good teams win at home regardless. That rotation makes them dangerous on the road too.
Trader Jim
December 14th, 2010
9:34 am
Could MLB get involved with this deal? Seems like I smell collusion between the Sox and Phillies.
Dadgum......
December 14th, 2010
9:35 am
Efrim….the Mets are still a year or two away and look more like cellar dwellers than serious contenders. The Nats are the ones to really watch out for IMO. Their defense just got better and they have 2 solid pitchers and a superstar pitcher if healthy.
The Braves simply can’t afford to enter 2011 with outfield play similar to what we had in 2010. They were terrible save Heyward who was marginal at best late in the year. The Lee signing may light a fire to get a proven OF. Mather may be the answer for LF if Chipper goes down and Prado moves to 3rd but how do we know? Shafer might be the answer for CF or McLouth could rebound but does anyone feel confident right now about that? Maybe both McLouth and Shafer workout where they play OF and Prado takes over if Chipper gets injured but again are we going to bet on that? Too many questions about our outfield so Wren must acquire a veteran OF.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
9:35 am
I will take bets on the Filthies top 4 NOT matching these numbers overall, contact me if you really think their 2011 starting staff is better then these 4
Avery 1993 = 18-6 ERA = 2.94
Glavine 1993 = 22-6 ERA = 3.20
Maddux 1993 = 20-10 ERA = 2.36
Smoltz 1993 = 15-11 ERA = 3.6
Trader Jim
December 14th, 2010
9:36 am
Not sure what MLB official rules are, but if this were the corporate enviromnent, there certainly would be anti-competitive implications. What would be the penalty? Sox give up draft picks?
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
9:36 am
What I’d consider “delusional” is thinking that the Phils will get 1200 innings out of their starters and score 800+ runs, to boot.
I agree that’s delusional, but you have to admit it’s a fantastic rotation and an above average offense. I think they are too left handed and I hate their age, but it’s a great team for the next two seasons.
Trader Jim
December 14th, 2010
9:37 am
Just looked it up: Sports don’t follow the Anti-Trust laws, so collusion is fair game, which is why you can have 3 team trades, and winter meetings with GM’s.
N8
December 14th, 2010
9:38 am
Listening to KC sports talk radio, and their radio guys are suspecting that Greinke goes to Texas, who really thought that they’d retain Lee. Saying the Yanks don’t believe Greinke would do well in NY, plus he has a list of teams he can’t be traded to and allegedly Texas is not on that list. Meaning no contract extention would be needed, and they have the young players to make the trade.
They also are saying that the Phils current rotation is better than any Braves 90’s rotation because the Braves rotation was never deep at #4 with either Hamels or Oswalt being the #4 guy.
Apparently they’re forgetting about Millwood and the two years of Denny Neagle in the rotation? But the point is noted.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
9:38 am
jeffrey d McFann’s favorite, Victorino.
Please, don’t mention that creep to me…
I had a dream last night where the Braves released McCann. The Pirates got him…it was awful…
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
9:39 am
Efrim – The Nats will be more of a worry spending in the future then the mutts, old man Wilpon will slowly bring down payroll (yes it will be more htne ours) but he is a hard ass businessman 1st and is furious at the way Minaya watsed his $$ for NO result, he see the Marlins and us competing with payrolls 30-60% less then his and he is not a happy camper,
N8
December 14th, 2010
9:41 am
NoBreggie4Dogs, times are different. After all, in 1991, Pendleton won the NL MVP with 19 HR.
Numbers are just different. Parks are smaller. Balls are harder. Strike zone is smaller.
But yeah. That 93 rotation was pretty incredible. Oh, btw scoots that rotation led the Braves to 103 wins that year (with a little help from McGriff and the boys).
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
9:42 am
The Nats will be more of a worry spending in the future then the mutts
They Mets will continue to spend more than any team in the National League other than the Phils and Cubs. That’s significant because they are in our division. Nats will probably spend more as well.
Carroll Rogers
December 14th, 2010
9:43 am
Tommy T that’s an interesting perspective, but for now, I can see where people are stunned and worried among Braves fans. Hard to look back this season and how tough this makes the Phillies.
MikeInFl
December 14th, 2010
9:44 am
Braves’ rotations of the ’90s seldom had a guaranteed top-notch guy in the #4 slot, but we had a lot of guys who ended up performing very well there.
I’d agree that going into the season, this Phillies 1-4 is probably better than any 1-4 the Braves STARTED a season with. Only time will tell if it actually performs better.
unbelievable
December 14th, 2010
9:48 am
some of you need to realize just how good those front 4 are for the Phils. Halladay/Lee/Hamels/Oswalt, they are all aces. There is no comparing our rotation to theirs, hell the Giants staff doesnt sniff this one. One injury could change a lot, but right now they are set up to have one of the best staffs ever. However, they have to play 162 like the rest of us.
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
9:50 am
The team to beat just got better. And they are “scary”. Plus, it’s unlikely they will have the massive injury bug 2 years in a row.
That being said, let’s all take a breath. How many years does the best team on paper actually win it all? You Bobby haters constantly remind us of the single win by the Braves (and I don’t blame Bobby. I do believe it is incredibly hard to win it all, even with the best tallent). How many years, including 2010, have the yankees had the best team on paper? They have won some championships, but most people have expected them to win it almost every year.
Who here predicted the Giant, Reds, and even the Rangers in 2010? Phillies were “unbeatable” last year. Red sox missed the playoffs. Let’s olay the games on the field, and not conceed anything. I believe we have a pretty good team on paper. If things fall the wrong way, we will miss the playoffs. BUT, if things fall the RIGHT way, I believe we can still win it all. And, we still have a little $$$ and a lot of tallent to make more moves (not big headline moves, but those that quietly help the team), and will be able to do so up to the trade deadline, is needed based on the actual performance of our questionable guys.
I agree thqat in the long run, the Rangers may be better off saving their $150M and making smaller moves that will add up to more help than any 1 starter.
Fish Bisch
December 14th, 2010
9:50 am
BALLGAME
N8
December 14th, 2010
9:51 am
“I will also say we won the season series when Lee was pitching in ‘09 with the Phillies. The Braves’ problem is they can’t beat the Nats. Until we can handle the Nats and teams like the Bucs and until we do we aren’t going to win the division.” Dadgum…
Bingo. Ding! Ding! Ding! We have a winner.
The Braves will hold their own against the elite teams. They always do. It’s the less than elite teams that we need to take care of business against. The Phillies now have the rotation to obliterate the weaker teams. Just like the 90’s Braves teams.
Those teams during the 14 year run made their “money” killing the scrubs of the NL. Anybody remember going 18-0 against the expansion Rockies?
Teams go from 88-92 win contenders to 100+ win teams that run away with divisions by beating the hell out of the bottom feeders, and the way you do that is by throwing and Ace out their every night that can go up against the crappy teams’ #4 and #5 starters, leaving very little hope for said crappy team.
Now, that being said, the Braves have a deep enough rotation to do just the same and the addition of Uggla makes our lineup better so the pitching doesn’t always have to be so perfect. But shoddy defense and mental lapses have caused us to squander opportunities against the bottom teams in the NL the past couple of years.
THAT is the difference between the Phillies and the Braves. Just like it was the difference between the Braves and literally every 2nd place team in the 90’s that thought they had a team to keep up with the Braves.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
9:51 am
N8 – yes but in he post steroids (for real) era, pitching is back to the forefront so we will see if the Filthies top 4 is the best in the modern era… I will even bet they do not match 80% of the raw numbers I listed of our 1993 quartet (why do people always
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
9:55 am
I agree that’s delusional, but you have to admit it’s a fantastic rotation and an above average offense
Absolutely. A very, very good team, no question.
But what I’m seeing here is a blindness to ANY problems that the Phils may have…Blinded By The L(ee)ight, I guess you could call it.
A full-blown woe-is-me because of the addition of a single player, not a rational comparison of the Phils and Braves.
We’re getting some of that “they’re great and we’re not” bull-bleep, when, in fact, there is not a wide gap between the talent of the two teams. That a gap does indeed exist (and they are the better team, indubitably) doesn’t mean such a thing is insurmountable. Nor is it blind homerism to point out the fallacies in an argument positing that it is.
P-Town Brave ©
December 14th, 2010
9:55 am
N8-
If that were the case and I were KC, I would ask for nothing less than Moreland, Holland, Hunter, Profar, Olt.
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
9:57 am
Baseball (I think it is the only sport) IS exempt from anti trust laws. However, they are not exempt from collusion (JUST ASK THE PLAYER’S ASSOCIATION). Owners LOST a bit-time anti-callision lawsuit in the 70’s. It really boils down to definition of collision. I doubt that the Phillies and Red Sox actually did anything illegal. It would not surprise me if the Sox indicated that they would be in a better position to trade if they didn’t have to worry about Lee going to the Yankees.
RHR
December 14th, 2010
10:00 am
Ballgame!
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
10:01 am
should be “big-time”
beekay
December 14th, 2010
10:01 am
Dadgum
I agree about the Nats. I think they have beaten the Braves the last 6 times that I have seen them here in D.C. We used to handle them at RFK but since they moved into the new stadium, they have owned us. For all you DLowe haters, the Yanks could be the team that would take his 2 year 30 mill contract without us eating any of it.His value could be at it’s peak. Would you do it now, and if so who would be our rotation ? Huddy,Hanson,JJ,Minor,Beachy or a Pavano type free agent?
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
10:02 am
calling “ballgame” now is like doing so in the ninth befoer Brooks Conrad came to bat. (he didn’t need his glove to hit a walkaway HR).
N8
December 14th, 2010
10:03 am
NoBreggie4Dogs, I’m not sure I really care how the Phillies rotation stacks up against any of the Braves rotations of yesteryear.
What I want to know is how it stacks up against the competition in 2011 and if they remain healthy, it’s going to make it REALLY tough for anybody to finish with a better record than them after 162 games are played.
All winter long people have been saying how much better the Braves “might” be in 2011 IF Jair returns to form. Because that will be like adding a big time free agent pitcher.
But then all of the sudden when a division rival (the defending champ) adds a guy that is arguably the prize of the off-season, it’s not supposed to make any difference for them, rather than have Joe Blanton on the mound. That’s homerism at it’s finest.
In 1992 Charlie Leibrandt went 15-7 with a 3.36 ERA and pitched 193.1 innings. The team went 22-10 in his 32 starts.
Anybody think that replacing Charlie with Maddux wasn’t a big deal?
In 2010, Joe Blanton made 29 starts for the Phillies, pitching 175.2 innings, going 9-6 with a 4.82 ERA and the team went 17-12 in his starts. Blanton is likely to be traded to make room for Lee’s salary.
Anybody still think that’s not an upgrade? Add to that, the will have 29-35 starts from Oswalt instead of 12 starts.
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
10:03 am
Kee-rist, I’m beginning to think we need Lee Ermey as therapist in here, LOL. Ya jackwagons.
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
10:03 am
ncscoots, I agree. I still like the Braves for the Wild Card. And again, the Phillies have some red flags with their age and left handedness.
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
10:04 am
Nats have owned us when they were bad. They are getting better fast – well run organization with young talent AND money to spend – scary. Maybe we can beat the improved Nats more than the sorry ones. LOL.
richbrave
December 14th, 2010
10:07 am
beekay
December 14th, 2010
10:01 am
Dadgum
I agree about the Nats. I think they have beaten the Braves the last 6 times that I have seen them here in D.C. We used to handle them at RFK but since they moved into the new stadium, they have owned us. For all you DLowe haters, the Yanks could be the team that would take his 2 year 30 mill contract without us eating any of it.His value could be at it’s peak. Would you do it now, and if so who would be our rotation ? Huddy,Hanson,JJ,Minor,Beachy or a Pavano type free agent?
LOWE out, BLANTON in.
N8
December 14th, 2010
10:11 am
“We’re getting some of that “they’re great and we’re not” bull-bleep, when, in fact, there is not a wide gap between the talent of the two teams.” scoots
There wasn’t last year either and we finished 5-6 games behind them (don’t remember exactly what it was). We added Uggla, they’ve added Lee.
They lost Werth (but I bet Brown puts up numbers close to what Werth did last year anyhow), and we lost…..uh….. Troy Glaus? Rick Ankiel? Melky Cabrera? Oh… I remember….. we STILL have Nate McLouth.
But seriously, we lost Billy Wagner.
I think our roation has a very good chance to be as dynamic as the Phillies. The names aren’t as sexy and it certainly doesn’t cost as much. But if Jair remains healthy and returns to pre-2010 form? With Hudson now having the stamina to last 6 months instead of 5. If Hanson continues to grow in year 3. If Minor gives us 20 quality starts over the course of the year. If Lowe simply does what he’s done.
Our bullpen is STILL better, even without Wagner.
Like last year, this season for the Braves hinges on Chipper. And as a poster said earlier, who Wren finds to be the 4th outfielder WHEN (not if) Prado is needed to play 3B. If that ends up being Hinske? We’re in trouble.
I’d like to see Wren get a real CF and have Nate be that emergency 4th outfielder “just in case”.
And we still need to catch the ball or it doesn’t matter how well our pitching staff matches up. That is the hard reality that keeps me up at night. (not really).
P-Town Brave ©
December 14th, 2010
10:11 am
N8-
Did I just read a Charlie Leibrandt sighting?!
All the wins pitching with smoke and mirrors…
Whatever it was, i still blame that guy and Lonnie Smith for not getting a ring in ‘91.
flange1
December 14th, 2010
10:15 am
Morning All,
Great move by the Phillies! Gotta give them props for sticking it to the Yankees and the Rangers.
But the NL East just got tougher and as Efrim is saying, it will continue to get tougher.
The Mets will start spending big next year and the Nats ahave already started. If the Marlins decide to spend for their new park, then it could get real interesting.
But I agree with Efrim, the Braves have to increase payroll and increase the money they spend in the draft.
IF FW is going to respond to this move (I don’t think he has the $$$), it needs to be a well thought out move to increase the quality of his major league and minor league teams.
I would much rather a trade for a young RH LF than a trade for Greinke that gives up 2-3 of our good young arms.
TennesseePaul
December 14th, 2010
10:18 am
I will take bets on the Filthies top 4 NOT matching these numbers overal
Yes. Doubtful they do this exactly because it is a different time, there are more teams, there is an unbalanced schedule, and there is interleague. So you’ll need to post some adjusted numbers to really see what the comparison would be.
For instance, something like below
Player_ERA+_WHIP
SAvery 138 1.160
Maddux 172 1.049
Smoltz 112 1.264
Glavin 127 1.362
Total_ 134 1.205
Last four years of the Phillies rotation. It’s pretty close so within the realm of possibility.
Player_ERA+_WHIP
Hallad 147 1.112
Hamels 125 1.165
Oswalt 124 1.191
C__Lee 125 1.173
Total_ 128 1.194
Dadgum......
December 14th, 2010
10:20 am
If Lowe is suppose to be our ” big game” pitcher and we send him out and Blanton in I sure as he’ll hope somebody like Cameron comes in too. Or someone of his ilk. Right now we need to get KK out. I’ll settle for that right now. KK will be traded.
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
10:21 am
In 1992 Charlie Leibrandt went 15-7 with a 3.36 ERA and pitched 193.1 innings. The team went 22-10 in his 32 starts. Anybody think that replacing Charlie with Maddux wasn’t a big deal?
Team record in 1993 with Maddux’s starts instead of Leibrandt: 22-14.
Mixxo
December 14th, 2010
10:21 am
Cliff Lee knows a top-notch organization. Good luck to him.
….and s-e-a-s-o-n.
TDub
December 14th, 2010
10:22 am
Frank Wren’s reaction to the Cliff Lee signing: http://youtu.be/C29ZSqLRJzU
O.J.
December 14th, 2010
10:22 am
Dang, I keep waiting to hear that KK has been traded, when the heck is this going to happen?
dpelfrey
December 14th, 2010
10:22 am
The Phillies will only have 3 guys under the age of 30 that will see significant playing time next year…Hamels (27), Brown (23) and Kendrick (26). They traded off all of their prospects over the past few years. The guys they got in the Lee trade to Seattle (Aumonth, Gillies, Ramirez) were supposed to replenish their farm but didn’t pan out and aren’t even on their BA top 10 list anymore. Other than Dominic Brown, they don’t have a single legitimate prospect above A-ball, so if they have any injuries this year and need to go get a guy at the trade deadline, I don’t see that they have any legitimate pieces to offer up.
They’re going to be tough to beat, but my point is there’s a real chance this things implodes on them with a few key injuries. Not a lot of depth on the 40-man roster, and not a lot of prospects to do anything via midseason trade.
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
10:24 am
P-town – I thought 91 was Bobby’s fault! (roll of eyes)
Flange – Mets finally have some leadership at the top, but no money for 2011. Long range, they will be a player. Washington is scary long range. Obviously Phillies aren’t going away. NL east is going to rival AL east as best division. I am optomistic that we will continue to be a player. Addition of 2nd wild card may help as well.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
10:25 am
N8 – I was just responding to the knee jerk media and other reaction that this is the greatest starting rotation ever (Filthies)… but all points u made are valid as are TN’s
Derek Lowe – I had heard that Yanks were thinking of him as a possible trade… only reason I raised it and asked Dave Obi etc, not saying I want to get rid of him but $15M buys a lot of burgers or more RH bats plus with Teheran and Delgado and Beachy and Minor etc
tony austin
December 14th, 2010
10:26 am
I thought about the Lee addition and I thought how the Braves will have trouble competing with that. And then I thought about the Braves rotation of the 90s and that was an awesome rotation, prob comparable to the new Phillies rotation. Then I thought of how many WS that Braves 90s rotation won.
Phillies are a stacked rotation now, they look awesome on paper, but you still have to play the game. Let’s see what happens.
N8
December 14th, 2010
10:27 am
P-Towne, see that’s the problem with most Braves fans. The blame should NEVER be placed on Leibrandt. A junkballer LH pitcher who Puckett had seen before should have NEVER been brought in in that situation.
Charlie made a bad pitch, but it was predictable as the sun rising in th east. Too bad Bobby didn’t see it coming. Then he let Leibrandt do it again the next post-season against Toronto. Priceless.
Anyhow, my point was that the Braves went 22-10 in Chuck’s 32 starts. Pretty hard for the team result to be any better than that. In 93, the Braves went 22-14 in Maddux’s 36 starts.
So Maddux made 4 more starts than Chuck did in 92, but the Braves lost all 4 of those starts.
But the innings that Maddux pitched saved the bullpen. Not to mention the intangible effect he had on the other guys in the rotation. That’s what I’m most worried about.
All those years once Maddux joined up, you could see those guys feeding off of each other. Adding Lee to an already good rotation, just makes that unit and group stronger and tighter if you ask me.
And Lee’s pretty good too (better than Joe Blanton, that’s for sure).
TennesseePaul
December 14th, 2010
10:27 am
We’re getting some of that “they’re great and we’re not” bull-bleep, when, in fact, there is not a wide gap between the talent of the two teams.
I’d argue there is in terms of known quantities. It’s a large gap. Health is a concern for both teams, but the Phillies do have the guys with a longer track record (veterans, and very good ones at that). So if health goes well for both, then the proven/unproven quantity is the gap. A lot more must go the Braves way in order to take the NL East.
Not writing off the Braves. They are still a legit post-season contender and a strong Wild Card favorite.
But… in the mean time this off-season has become by far the most entertaining in recent memory. The Yanks losing out on Lee and Crawford, still needing one or two pitchers opens up a plethora of trade speculation to carry us through to February.
The Braves acquiring Uggla and the Phillies responding with Lee. It just makes for fun baseball reading … really sets up for some exciting story lines in 2011.
I’m glad the Phillies have their rotation. It should make the games all that much more fun. I enjoy real competition.
TDub
December 14th, 2010
10:28 am
Seriously, though – has anyone done the breakdown of how much they’re paying on starting pitching now versus their payroll, specifically what percentage of their payroll is going to Lee and Halladay? If you throw in Utley and Howard, that’s got to take up the majority of their money… I know this makes their staff look awesome, but it takes more than 4-5 people to field a great team. Look at the Yankees – they’re a menagerie of awesome players, but not necessarily a great team.
/grasping at straws, but still
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
10:29 am
I don’t think Greinke is worth the price to us. I’d rather use whatever assets we have to improve the outfield and bench.
Murph
December 14th, 2010
10:30 am
I can’t believe all the panic I’m reading here on the board this morning. It’s Cliff Lee. The world’s most expensive 4.00 ERA. He had one great season… one.
Halladay makes me shake in my boots, but Lee is just another pitcher. Don’t buy into the offseason hype. He got all the coverage because he’s the best of what was available, not because he’s a future HOF pitcher.
Lee’s good, but any one of our pitchers could beat him on any given night.
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
10:31 am
Other than Dominic Brown, they don’t have a single legitimate prospect above A-ball, so if they have any injuries this year and need to go get a guy at the trade deadline, I don’t see that they have any legitimate pieces to offer up.
This may be true, but you’re acting like the Phils have a bad system. They don’t. It’s actually very solid. Perhaps even Top 10, and certainly banging down the door. Dom Brown, Jon Singleton, Jarred Cosart, Brody Colvin, Trevor May, Jesse Biddle, Jiwan James, and Sebastian Valle is a lot better than most organizations. Even if they are in A ball. Were you knocking the Braves prospects in 2009 when they were all in Rome and Myrtle Beach?
MikeInFl
December 14th, 2010
10:33 am
Dang, I keep waiting to hear that KK has been traded, when the heck is this going to happen?
Now that Lee has signed, I’m guessing the rest of the major leagues will turn their attention to Kawakami. Rangers, Yankees, maybe the Red Sox should be in on him.
TennesseePaul
December 14th, 2010
10:33 am
Scoots: What I’d consider “delusional” is thinking that the Phils will get 1200 innings out of their starters and score 800+ runs, to boot
Funny you should say that. Last year the Phils scored 776 runs. pretty close to 800. But more interestingly, the Phils top for in that rotation have combined to average throwing 1,301 innings a season over the last 4 years.
Snotboogie
December 14th, 2010
10:35 am
Phillies have atrue ace and 3 number 2s. For 2011. That’s it. After that they are saddled with big contracts – most of which will not pan out – and a weak farm system. This is going to be a season where they are putting many eggs in one basket. Didnt work in 2010 and might not in 2011. They are the ones to beat for now. But watching them rebuild/restock for the next several years will be fun.
DAP
December 14th, 2010
10:36 am
wow, this division is really good, you guys.
ChrisfromSacramento,CA
December 14th, 2010
10:37 am
Im sorry but for the paople who say we have a great staff, you people are out of your minds.
Lowe is a inninges eater at best.
Hudson may be a top 10 pitcher in the National League. May be!
Hanson stuff can be electric at times.
JJ Just another young pitcher whos light has dimmed.
Beachy Funny
The Phils just won the National League last night.
Halladay Hof’er
Hammels WS MVP Allstar
Oswalt Can dominate teams
Lee Top three lefty in baseball
The Philie Phanatic is better than out fifth starter.
The Phils have a great rotation. Maybe more dominiate than the 90’s Braves. Sad to say the Braves dont have a dominate rotation that misses bat. POWER ARMS WIN IN THE POST SEASON. ASK THE GIANTS. Maybe with Greinke it makes it better.
The Phills pen is horrible, but they still hit way better than the Braves. It is going to be a long year