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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
6,221 comments Add your comment
RC
December 14th, 2010
4:39 pm
Tomas,
This lineup might be the best since 2003, but it’s NOWHERE as good as the 2003 lineup was. That team was STACKED.
Nick
December 14th, 2010
4:39 pm
Halladay > Lowe
Lee = Hudson
Hanson > Oswalt
Hamels > JJ
Minor/Beachy = Kendrick/Blanton
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
4:41 pm
Ahhh, it’s just the nature of things to be a little apprehensive when a big-time pitcher shows up at a rival. Completely natural to blow him up to be Big Foot, Sasquatch, King Kong, and Cy Young all rolled into one. Happened when Santana came into the league (”Mets will own the league!”), when Halladay came into the league (”Retire the Cy Young with Doc’s name on it!”), when Oswalt came to the Phillies in mid-season (”Oswalt makes them the best rotation in the league!”), yada yada yada. Yawn.
Almost never happens that way, because the baseball gods are not believers in the obvious. Baseball has a way of humbling even the best players and teams, and a season almost never, ever unfolds the way you think it will.
Lee is an excellent pitcher, and he makes the Phillies better. So what? I think it’s still safe enough that we don’t have to hide the wives and daughters.
RC
December 14th, 2010
4:42 pm
Nick,
It doesn’t work that way. You can’t put Lowe against Halladay, since Lowe is at best the Brave’s 3rd best pitcher. And even if you could, Lee > Hudson.
Here’s how it really looks:
Halladay > Hudson
Lee > Hanson
Oswalt > Lowe (or Jurrjens)
Hamels > Jurrjens (or Lowe)
Kendrick/Blanton >= Minor/Beachy (could be equal, but they get the edge based on experience)
Murph
December 14th, 2010
4:42 pm
Interesting post Nick… so, how does that equate to 18-0 for the Phillies? Are they only going to start Halladay and Hamels against the Braves?
Paul Snyder
December 14th, 2010
4:42 pm
Joe – Not sure if you ever got any response on Sammons…from what I’ve heard he’s still a free agent…but considering that JC Boscan was resigned and Wilkin Castillo was signed as a minor league FA from the Reds organization…and also Jesus Sucre (the Sugar Jesus as he’s affectionately referred to on Talking Chop) has been coming on pretty strong and could be pushing for playing time at the AAA level soon…Sucre hit .297 in 145 AB’s last year at Miss in his first taste of AA ball and is solid behind the plate…so all these collectively point to the fact that it looks like there’s a decent possibility he might not be back
Also since he’s been in our org since 2004 he may want a change in scenery…even though he’s from the Atlanta area…
Tomahawk Mafia
December 14th, 2010
4:43 pm
Nick Green emerged in 2004 during one of the many trips to the disabled list experienced by Marcus Giles, rather than 2005. After the 2004 season we was dealt to Tampa Bay in exchange for Jorge Sosa.
Tomas
December 14th, 2010
4:44 pm
2003 vs 2011
Javy Lopez vs Brian McCann…..Lopez edge
Robert Fick/Julio Franco vs Freddy Freeman……..Freeman edge
Marcus Giles vs Dan Uggla………Uggla edge
Vinny Castilla vs Chipper Jones……..Jones edge
Rafael Furcal vs Alex Gonzalez…………Furcal edge
Healthy Chipper vs Martin Prado………..Healthy Chipper edge
awesome Andruw Jones vs Nate Mclouth……awesome andruw edge
Gary Sheffield vs Jason Heyward………..Sheffield edge
5-3 2003 wins over 2011. But RF, LF, and Catcher are close.
BravePack
December 14th, 2010
4:47 pm
Nick
December 14th, 2010
4:29 pm
Braves suck. SS, CF, 1B, 3B all suck. I have them at 80-82.
Pay no attention to the A-hole trying to stir things up. He’s a dumbazz.
nolie
December 14th, 2010
4:48 pm
I STILL caint believe all the homers who are ripping the Phils offense. Get real folks, stop living in denial…the end of the world IS at hand
ramblingman
December 14th, 2010
4:48 pm
^5@Hillbilly for Aaron comment
I guess those people who are crying about the lack of Atlanta’s offense just totally glossed over my post @ 2:13
richbrave
December 14th, 2010
4:48 pm
LPad
December 14th, 2010
2:30 pm
Whatever, richbrave. See you’re taking cheapshots. Ooo, foot-pad, real creative. Prove these stories are true. What kind of nonsense is that. They were written by professional baseball writers. What would qualify as proof a written, signed statement by a member of the Brewers or Braves organization.
Yours is the nonsense foot-pad, in fact it fails the smell test. There have been no such substantive articles detailing such machinations as you describe. Plenty of rumors, but no GM’s saying “yes, this or that offer was definitively made.” So stow it, foot-pad.
DAP
December 14th, 2010
4:49 pm
RC, Braves have an advantage on the Phillies at RF, LF, 3b, and catcher.
im not trying to single you out, RC, but im not sure why people do this. position by position which player is better doesnt tell us anything about which team is better. people do it a ton when comparing teams, but it doesnt mean anything. if youre gonna do it, compare offense as a whole, or at least rank the hitters 1-8 and match them up that way.
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
4:49 pm
Higher payroll does not equal more wins
New ownership does not equal higher payroll
I agree with the second part, but boy, given the Braves front office and player development staff, them being able to spend more on the major league roster, draft and on international free agents would certainly be nice….
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
4:49 pm
the end of the world IS at hand
Well, that’s good to know, LOL; at least, I don’t have to worry about getting season tickets this year.
CraZyTRaDeMaN
December 14th, 2010
4:50 pm
Dear Santa,
I know it’s been quite a few Christmas’s since I last wrote you, but I decided you would be the only person that could legally get me what I want this year. Don’t worry I’ve gotten over the fact that when I was 7 I asked for a Nintendo and you gave me some ugly sweater. And don’t worry about the year that I asked for the Dirt Bike and you got me a remote control evil kenevil bike. I’m sure asking for a Dirt Bike was a little much for someone out of shape to carry down a chimney!! It’s cool though…I’m over it!!!! Unlike those years I’m trying to be unselfish this year so how about actually getting me what I want for a change. I really want this gift to be for everyone!!!
This year all I’m asking is for you or one of your elves to give Clif Lee, Cole Hamels or one of the Roy’s a blown elbow for Christmas!!!! Please that’s really all I need from you this year!!! I don’t want them to be permanently hurt just out for the year. We can deal with the next year at a more appropriate time!! Incase you don’t receive this I’ll come by the mall this weekend to tell you in person.
From your biggest believer (as long as the Phillies are short 1 SP come spring training),
CraZyTRaDeMaN
RC
December 14th, 2010
4:51 pm
Cool article by Craig Calcaterra over at NBC Sports. Points out that while next year’s Philly rotation should be very good, they still have a ways to go to be as good as the 90’s Braves rotations. Man, Greg Maddux was awesome.
http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/12/14/not-so-fast-on-that-best-rotation-of-all-time-business/
Bat Masterson
December 14th, 2010
4:51 pm
I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that at least 9 of those 13 things should happen, but it’s still going to be tough. Stop pretending that the Phillies aren’t that good. _ HomeofdaBrave
I’ll sleep just fine tonight.
Michael B
December 14th, 2010
4:51 pm
our friends at bleacher report are doing their usual good work…they say we are the leader for MFIKY’s services.
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/540673-mlb-free-agency-10-possible-destinations-for-rafael-soriano?utm_source=newsletter
Tounge firmly in cheek by the way.
Murph
December 14th, 2010
4:52 pm
Wow nolie. Of all the people throwing in the towel in December I never thought I’d see you.
They don’t hand out championships in December for a reason. Look at some of the “All Star” teams that have been assembled over the years yet either didn’t make it to the playoffs or didn’t win the WS. There’s a lot of ‘em.
They play the games for a reason. Anyone giving up on the Braves now because of something a division rival did should give up baseball as a hobby and take up knitting or something more fitting their demeanor.
DAP
December 14th, 2010
4:52 pm
like nick. what is the point of that 4:44 post? why dont we just say “the 2003 braves scored over 900 runs. i dont think this team can do that.” i mean, its obvious. why do a position by position comparison?
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
4:52 pm
So, in one sense, I think you could argue that anything over, oh, 210 from Lee would make a difference.
Yeah, I’d probably go that route…but I’m in that sort of glum mood today…..
maybe tomorrow I’ll feel better and say that the Phils pen will be their downfall and I see a 87 win season on the horizon….
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
4:53 pm
Of all the people throwing in the towel in December I never thought I’d see you.
I can’t imagine nolie was being 100% serious.
ncscoots
December 14th, 2010
4:55 pm
Buck up, Efrim. Braves are in line to give us some good ball games this year, regardless of what the Phillies do. The rest of it? What happens, happens. Could be a lot of fun watching it, eh?
richbrave
December 14th, 2010
4:56 pm
raleighbravefan
December 14th, 2010
2:35 pm
Lpad/richbrave – You two go to seperate parts of the house, and calm down. We can debate Minor vs. Beachy all day, but both have a lot of potential, and neither has proven it yet. I do think Minor is vendicating the decision to make him our first round draft choice.
NO. I read enough crap put up here by other team’s fans, and those “BRAVES fans” here that are faint of heart. I’m gonna’ go after ‘um for awhile
A game of the 2011 season has yet to be played or decided. If the decisions total in favor of the PHILLIES after ther season’s over, I concede that the FILTHIES have a great team. And if the BRAVES win out (and I believe they will). I’ll point out here the BRAVES have the better team. I might even go on some PHILLIES blog and razz ‘um too.
richbrave
December 14th, 2010
4:56 pm
Efrim
December 14th, 2010
4:53 pm
Of all the people throwing in the towel in December I never thought I’d see you.
I can’t imagine nolie was being 100% serious.
You know he isn’t.
CraZyTRaDeMaN
December 14th, 2010
4:57 pm
follow me off the clif……Oh wait you already jumped
RC
December 14th, 2010
4:57 pm
DAP,
I was basically doing the position by position to make a joke about pitching positions 1-4. I agree that the position by position breakdowns don’t really tell you anything.
N8
December 14th, 2010
4:57 pm
“Vinny Castilla vs Chipper Jones……..Jones edge” Thomas
Seriously? Realy?
The 2011 version of Chipper Jones isn’t even going to come close to the 2003 version of Vinny Castilla.
2003 Castilla: 22 HR, 76 RBI, .277/.310/.461/.771
2010 Chipper : 10 HR, 46 RBI, .265/.381/.426/.806
I used 2010 Chipper, because we will be LUCKY to get those numbers out of Chipper next year. Add to that, it was highway robbery that Castilla didn’t win the GG in 2003. He was OUTSTANDING with the glove. Steady Eddie over there. Actually, I’m thinking of 2002 when he only had 6 errors for the year. But the point is that Chipper never was, and certainly will never be as good with the glove as Vinny was.
BREAKING NEWS……… “ESPN is reporting that…. Nick is still a douche. His consecutive days streak of being a douche is currently at 378 and it doesn’t appear that that streak will end anytime soon, and it is likely that nobody will every come close to breaking that streak.”
So there you have it….. Nick is the Brett Favre of the blog. Congrats Nick. You’ve earned it.
civilied white trash
December 14th, 2010
4:59 pm
if chip plays and is not fully healthy i would say the phils have the edge at 3rd planco in legit IF chip is healthy then no contest. if chip dont play and prado is moved to third then no contest braves advantage in both but the lf could be up in the air
cabravesfan
December 14th, 2010
4:59 pm
McFann-
You were correct about the Yanks and Phils
Efrim-
You left out the rest of my post- 6 of the 8 teams in the playoffs had payrolls of less then $100 million, and the Rangers were 27th out of 30 teams…my point was you can spend and spend, but that does not guarantee more wins on the field…
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
4:59 pm
Tomas 2003 vs 2011…Javy Lopez vs Brian McCann…..Lopez edge
Hey, now, you don’t know that yet…
Murph
December 14th, 2010
5:00 pm
huh?
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:00 pm
Tomas,
I love Brian McCann, but to say he’s going to put up anything “close” to Javy’s 2003 season (43 HR, .328 avg) is just crazy.
Also think that Giles and Uggla have to be considered at least tied. Sure Uggla will have more than 21 HR, but he won’t come near a .316 avg. That team was ridiculously good.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:01 pm
cabravesfan You were correct about the Yanks and Phils
Well, I s’pose anybody in diapers would know that.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:02 pm
McFann, it’s ok if Brian doesn’t match Javy’s 2003 numbers. He won’t have quite the “help” that I suspect Javy did….
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:03 pm
RC—
Hey, BMac hit .333 once…Javy never beat that playing more than 10 games.
Bleh, and BMac doesn’t have to hit 43 homers—just give us 43 Doubles, BMac.
Steve from OH
December 14th, 2010
5:04 pm
Dang, Steve–
Ouch. Do you really think it is that unsound to look at a 9 year career minus 1 single season of stats?
Er, sorry…didn’t mean to sound so snarky. I’m just not a fan of the “throw out the season/month/whatever” line, barring if the player played hurt. That is what happened, so treat it as so.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:04 pm
RC He won’t have quite the “help” that I suspect Javy did….
True that. I’d take a clean 20 homers over a dirty 40 homers any day of the week and twice on Sunday…
(Do they know for a fact that Javy had “help”?)
Jim
December 14th, 2010
5:06 pm
With great reluctance to propose a trade, how about something like the following 3-way deal:
1. Yankees get Lowe – who is not afraid to pitch in NYC all the time.
2. Braves get Grienke – both Lowe and Grienke have two years left on their contracts.
3. Yankees give up two or three prospects to KV
4. Braves give up 2 or 3 prospects (not the top 3 or 4) to KC. Maybe Beachy would be included and be enough.
5. Maybe we can dump KK in this deal, with $5 – $6MM cash attached.
Substituting Grienke for Lowe saves the Braves a few dollars
LPad
December 14th, 2010
5:06 pm
richbrave – I see you ignored the DOB quote and all my questions as to why these other pitchers on the team are considered better than Beachy. Use some brain cells and come up with some answers.
ajj
December 14th, 2010
5:07 pm
I’d rather have 5 years of Julio T, 5 years of Delgado, 5 years of A vizcaino than one year of 13 Million for Grienke and his 4.10 ERA, I wouldnt trade a single one of those players for him. Plus the money isnt there, the only way we could make a play for a real ame changer is if we can Trade Lowe to a team like the Yankees who now need Starting pitching, Lowe For Swisher would be a good swap plus it would give us 15 Million to spend on a FA next year instead of 2012
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
5:07 pm
Tomas NOooooooooooooooooooooooooooo McCann >>>> Lopez (’roid adjusted and defensively)
Brian McCann and I say this expecting a lot of love from a certain OO young lady.. is the best catcher in MLB bar none (including Mauer)
N8
December 14th, 2010
5:07 pm
Tell me that that 2003 team wasn’t “juiced” up.
Javy Lopez doing his best Brady Anderson impersonation. Shef? Is there really any doubt with the Bonds connection? Giles? Um…. I’m going with YES.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:07 pm
(Do they know for a fact that Javy had “help”?) – McFann
We don’t know anything for a fact, but I do remember a radio interview a year or two ago where the subject came up and Javy seemed pretty open about the issue without actually admitting anything. I think his quote was something along the lines of “If you see everyone else is doing something, and it’s helping them, then you are going to try and do the same things.” The interviewers never asked him outright if he had taken anything, and he never said outright that it had, but the entire tone of the interview definitely gave that impression.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:08 pm
N8,
Don’t forget that Javy was in the “best shape of his life” before that season
Murph
December 14th, 2010
5:09 pm
I’d rather have 5 years of Julio T, 5 years of Delgado, 5 years of A vizcaino than one year of 13 Million for Grienke and his 4.10 ERA
Well said.
Tomas
December 14th, 2010
5:10 pm
Uggla might hit 40 this year, with an AVG close to 300 I’ve got to give him the edge over Giles.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:10 pm
NoBreggie4Dogs Brian McCann is the best catcher in MLB bar none (including Mauer)
♥ Ah, how true, how true!
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:12 pm
RC—
I getcha, thanks!
Neight—
My Dad all but swears Giles was on steroids…
T for Texas
December 14th, 2010
5:12 pm
No worries, Steve. As sri pointed out, the point I was making with that argument didn’t really hold water.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:13 pm
RC Don’t forget that Javy was in the “best shape of his life” before that season
Well, plenty of guys have said that before……
Steve from OH
December 14th, 2010
5:15 pm
If anyone gets the chance, read ESPN’s feature on Nick Lidstrom. I wish more pro athletes were like him…ego-less and team-oriented, more worried about the team winning than their stats.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:15 pm
Jim,
That trade would never happen for the following reasons:
1. The prospects which the Yankees would give up for Lowe would not be enough to turn around with a few prospects from the Braves to get Grienke unless thos prospects from the Braves included at least 2 of the names Minor, Teheran, Delgado, or Vizcaino.
2. KC is not taking on any money in a Grienke deal, and Yankees have no interest in Kawakami. He could not be a part of it.
3. While Grienke is a great pitcher, the marginal upgrade from Lowe to Grienke is not nearly large enough to be worth the prospects he would cost. If the Braves’ #5 starter was KK or Jo-Jo Reyes, and they would get to keep Lowe, then I could see how the upgrade might be worth it. But going from Lowe to Grienke is worth an extra 3 wins AT BEST, and that’s simply not worth the cost. They’d be much better off upgrading a position of weakness than a position that’s already a strength.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:17 pm
Tomas,
Uggla might hit 40 this year, but what makes you think he’s going to have an average anywhere near .300? Last year was a career high (by a lot) at .287.
Steve from OH
December 14th, 2010
5:19 pm
T–yeah, I guess. Well, sorry anyway, like I said, nothing meant by it. Was just trying more of a joke to minimize the stress, you know?
N8
December 14th, 2010
5:20 pm
McFann, to me it’s so obvious with both Giles brothers that it’s laughable.
Perhaps I’m assuming too much. But those guys make Hulk Hogan’s neck look skinny.
Knowing (or thinking we know) what we know now, I don’t doubt for a second that Sheff and Javy were juiced up at the time too.
Not much we can do about it now and if we’re to believe Canseco, there was plenty of juice going round in each clubhouse, to technically the competition was “fair”, right?
In 1999 Javy had 11 HR. But his season was cut short, so it is what it is. But here are the totals after that:
2000: 24
2001: 17
2002: 11
2003: 43 (in only 109 games)
2004: 23
2005: 15
2006: 8
2007: out of baseball at age 35.
You tell me.
Steve from OH
December 14th, 2010
5:21 pm
Oh, and even though Lee signed with the Phillies, I’m glad the Yanks didn’t get him. I hope more players follow his example in the future. Good for him.
I mean, how could he sign with them after the fans spit on his wife?
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:23 pm
Neight You tell me.
Well, when you put it that way, ha, it does look bad…
N8
December 14th, 2010
5:25 pm
“I mean, how could he sign with them after the fans spit on his wife?” Steve
I’ll give you 138 million reasons why I’d tell my wife to “suck it up”. LOL!
Nah. He made the right choice. He was obviously comfortable in Philly. Good for him.
Steve, on a side note, have you picked up that King’s X “Live in London” DVD yet? Pretty cool stuff. Excellent sound and video quality. Still doesn’t do them justice for seeing them live. But it exceeded my expectations. Which is cool.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:26 pm
Oh, except, um, Neight…Javy actually played 129 games in ‘03…
BosnianBaller
December 14th, 2010
5:26 pm
I still think we match up pretty good w/ the Phills. Their line up is a year older w/ rollins. Of course Howard and Utley are there but w/ out Werth their line up isn’t as scary as back as a few years ago
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:27 pm
I just heard that Lee returns to the Phillies. We really need to do something to improve our pitching rotation now. We have Lowe, Hudson, and Jurrjens now we need some more pitchers that can compete.
ramblingman
December 14th, 2010
5:28 pm
“I’ll give you 138 million reasons why I’d tell my wife to “suck it up”. LOL!”
And she would give you 69 million reasons to regret telling her that
(that’s 50% of the 138 for those of you bad at math)
Bat Masterson
December 14th, 2010
5:31 pm
Have you given up on Hanson, Trey?
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:33 pm
Bat, Hanson completely slipped my mind. I was too focused on my worry about Beachy and Minor.
MPIMENTEL
December 14th, 2010
5:33 pm
ok I GOT IT, the phills take lee from free agency and we took hinskie…ok I got it….and some of you may expect a sell out season… no way chico…
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
5:33 pm
Hanson is statistically on many fronts our ACE, but wins is all I care about, bye KK
N8
December 14th, 2010
5:34 pm
ramblingman…. so you’re saying that I’d have 69 million dollars AND be single?
Where do I sign up?
McFann, you’re right. The 109 games was in 2002. However, he only started 117 games in 2003 (and had 12 PH appearances – hitting only 1 of his 43 HR as a PH). Leaving 42 HR in 117 starts.
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:34 pm
My apologies, Bat, I am in one of those modes in which I am not all mentally there. Exhausted.
Tomas
December 14th, 2010
5:35 pm
RC because last year he hit 287 close to 300
MPIMENTEL
December 14th, 2010
5:35 pm
the new york yunkees fans have to be proud…
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:37 pm
Neight—
Ha, yeah, so even still…
Bat Masterson
December 14th, 2010
5:38 pm
No problem Trey, some people have a low opinion of Hanson, not sure why.
Tomas
December 14th, 2010
5:38 pm
I do got to say 2003 was in the steroid era. Javy Lopez, Andruw Jones, and Marcus Giles are all suspected users.
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:38 pm
N8, you can’t fool the McFann.
Braveman
December 14th, 2010
5:38 pm
What about a trade from Seattle for king Felix. That would be a counter move, Right ?!?
Tomas
December 14th, 2010
5:39 pm
And Sheffield also
N8
December 14th, 2010
5:39 pm
“Bat, Hanson completely slipped my mind. I was too focused on my worry about Beachy and Minor.” Trey
That’s the problem with BSPN and all the other national media outlets (or other local outlets like the one I listen to out of KC).
Nobody knows our guys. The names, other than Hudson aren’t the “sexy” everyday names that casual fans know. If a diehard fan like Trey can “forget” about Hanson? Why should some guy who covers the Red Sox at ESPN know who he is?
The rest of the NL East knows and that’s all that’s important. But like I said, earlier today on KC radio they were saying how this new Phillies rotation blows away “any” of the Braves rotations in the 90’s, because they wer never “4 deep”.
First of all, they were 4 deep BEFORE Maddux got there. Glavine, Leibrandt, Avery and Smoltz were pretty good.
Then for a few seasons after Maddux arrived, they were still 4 deep (especially in 93) with Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz and Avery.
Then after Avery was long gone, they were 4 deep with Neagle, and in 1998 they were 5 deep.
5 guys that won 16 games.
So, even the media only remember the 3 HOF guys. Guys like Millwood, Neagle, Avery, and Leibrandt are afterthoughts, that are long forgotten. Which is wrong.
Oh well. It is what it is.
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:40 pm
Bat, I actually respect Hanson. I know he will do a lot for the Braves in the upcoming years and I think his control will get better next year.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:40 pm
Trey you can’t fool the McFann.
Not re: catchers, anyway.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:41 pm
What about a trade from Seattle for king Felix. That would be a counter move, Right ?!?
So annoyed when realizing that King Felix almost signed with the Braves a year before he signed with Seattle….what if?
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:42 pm
N8, he just slipped my mind when I was writing them down, but I wouldn’t say I necessarily forgot about him.
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:42 pm
N8, he just slipped my mind when I was writing them down, but I wouldn’t say I necessarily forgot about him.
MFin04
December 14th, 2010
5:43 pm
What an incredible move pulled off by the Phillies. Not only was it shocking, but it establishes one of the best starting rotations in the history of baseball. The scary part is the Braves match up terribly 1-5 against them. Especially with 3 of the 5 being lefties, and one of two others being Halladay.
That being said, with maybe one more addition the Braves are good enough to run away with the NL Wild Card like the Yankees/Rays did last year in the AL.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:43 pm
N8,
Part of the reason the media remembers the “Big 3″ in Atlanta is because they all had such longevity to them. Avery was great, but he was great over a much shorter period of time than Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz were. That 10+ years of dominance is what cemented their places in history.
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:43 pm
McFann, unless it comes to Javy Lopez!
Enquiring Minds Want to Know
December 14th, 2010
5:44 pm
If the Yankees, having lost out on Lee, decided that they wanted Derek Lowe, but weren’t offering much in a trade, would you do it? If so, what would you do with that $15 million?
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:44 pm
The scary part is the Braves match up terribly 1-5 against them. – MFin04
I wouldn’t say the Braves match up “terribly”. They don’t match up great, but I’d say the Braves match up 1-5 against the Phillies as good as any team in the NL except for San Fran.
BravesFanChris26
December 14th, 2010
5:45 pm
Honestly I still don’t buy the hype of the Phillies because of the Lee signing.
I’m not being a homer in any shape or fashion when I say I’m not scared because Phillies have signed Lee and potentially the best rotation in the majors next season and possibly next few years. Sure the pitching can become their advantage in the post season and what not, but Phillies rotation as good as they can possibly be and on paper, still have to play the game of baseball.
Remember Lee got beat against Giants and as did Halladay. So the going on as if Phillies rotation makes them unstoppable is a crock in my opinion. Basically Phillies have gotten better in the starting rotation, but that’s about it. They are lacking in depth and their offense isn’t as good as it was.
Take Ryan Howard and Chase Utley out of the line up for any given time and they are screwed. Not a knock on Rollins or a Victorino or Ruiz, but Howard/Utley ARE Phillies offense in terms of being a legit threat offensively. Without the two and the lineup isn’t as scary. That’s where losing Werth can possibly bite them next season and beyond unless/until they rectify the situation.
Braves have some question marks without a doubt. Chipper’s health, McLouth’s effectiveness and going with some young players in key situations. However, the one thing Braves have over Phillies is that they didn’t need to improve their starting pitching and while Braves did some tweaking in the bullpen, it seems like Braves bullpen could be about the same as last seasons sans Wagner.
Good pitching is good to have, but if you don’t score runs, then pitching is moot. I’m not undervaluing Phillies at all. They are indeed still the team to beat in the NL East, but they aren’t unstoppable nor is it impossible to compete with them just because they signed Lee.
If I’m not mistaken, Giants are the team to beat as they are current World Series Champions and Phillies didn’t fare quite well against them now did they.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:45 pm
If the Yankees, having lost out on Lee, decided that they wanted Derek Lowe, but weren’t offering much in a trade, would you do it? If so, what would you do with that $15 million?
Probably wouldn’t do it, unless I was REALLY confident in both Minor and Beachy.
As to what I’d do with $15 million? Adrian Beltre, if that’d be enough to sign him.
NoBreggie4Dogs
December 14th, 2010
5:46 pm
Everyone except I, UNDERSELLS Steve Avery, guy was effing great as a kid, much better then GLAV at that time……… okidoki then
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:46 pm
Trey—
I wouldn’t say that—his “good looks” never fooled me.
McFann O O
December 14th, 2010
5:47 pm
I don’t think Soph undersells Avery……
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:47 pm
Enquiring Minds Want to Know, I wouldn’t. I’d rather keep Lowe. Lowe came around last season when we needed him, and I think he can do that again next year.
Paul Snyder
December 14th, 2010
5:47 pm
Great article by Craig Calcaterra…thanks for that RC…anyone who tries to make any type of comparisons to our vaunted staffs of the 90’s seriously needs to stop because there just isn’t any comparison…
Oswalt has won 13 and 8 games respectively the last 2 years…and the 8 wins was in 30 starts…and he’s 5 years removed from his best stretch of pitching
Hamels has gone 12-11 and 10-11 the last 2 years…
Lee has won 12 and 14 games the last 2 years…and only has 1 season in the last 5 with more than 14 wins…
And the ages of all these guys when this staff is being assembled…Halladay 34 (will be early next season), Oswalt 33, Lee 32…and they’ve made long term committments to 2 of them…taking the vesting options into account 4 years for Halladay and 6 to Lee…and these contracts were earned by these guys being in their primes and pitching their best stretches elsewhere for other clubs…
Our staff’s of the 90’s…led by Maddux, Glavine, and Smoltz…with Avery, Neagle, Millwood depending on the year…we had them IN THEIR PRIMES…because we developed them in our system, or acquired them at the right time…we didn’t bring them in and give them long term contracts when they were already well past 30 and approaching their mid 30’s…when they had been in their primes elsewhere…Maddux, Glav, and Smoltz had 7 Cy Youngs between them…to 3 for the Phils group…Maddux, Glav, and Smoltz are all Hall of Famers (2 of them surefire first ballot and Smoltz likely first ballot)…to likely just Halladay…Maddux won 355 games!! Only 1 pitcher who started his career after 1900 won more…our own Warren Spahn by the way…Glavine was a 300 game winner…
Plus Oswalt only has 1 more year left on his deal…and I think there’s definitely a doubt on whether they’ll pick up his option for 2012…since they’re currently getting salary relief from Houston…and they’ll also have to re-up Hamels after this year(the only one of their group you can make a case is still on the rise)…so anyone who envisions they’ll be running all 4 of these guys out there for the next few years…there’s a good chance this 1-4 is just a 1 year situation…
Braveman
December 14th, 2010
5:47 pm
@RC, I didn’t know That ?!? Man !, You’re right, What could have been !
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:48 pm
BravesFanChris26,
It’s all about playing the odds. While SF did win the WS, I wouldn’t call them the “team to beat”. By acquring Lee the Phillies greatly increased their odds of winning the WS, but I still wouldn’t put those odds at anything higher than 30%. And that’s higher than every other team in baseball.
Trey
December 14th, 2010
5:48 pm
McFann, now I am a guy so his looks don’t mean much to me, but he could hit.
RC
December 14th, 2010
5:48 pm
Braveman,
Yeah, I don’t remember where I read that recently, but my heart sank a little as I realized what it could have meant.