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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
4,489 comments Add your comment
dpelfrey
December 6th, 2010
5:26 pm
Sorry guys for starting the Greinke trade scenarios. I was just trying to get people to stop talking about it by showing them how much the Braves would have to give up for an unpredictable pitcher, but I guess I overestimated the audience.
RC
December 6th, 2010
5:26 pm
Travis,
I don’t think Huddy had one. I thought either Sheffield or JD Drew did, but I can’t remember or find any information about either online. Sorry I can’t provide more information…it’s hard to track down NTCs from 4-5 years ago.
ChrisfromSacramento,Ca
December 6th, 2010
5:26 pm
RC, you have to score runs to win. The braves showed they cant score enough. Uggla will help. But CF is a issue. Defense sucks out there with Nate. He has no arm and is a mess at the plate. Braves jsut stuck a 2B out in left field. There is an issue.
VaBravesFan
December 6th, 2010
5:26 pm
Grienke trade to Atlanta would be hard to get done. Grienke makes 13.5 million this year and next. There’s just no possible way to add that type of salary. Yes we have the youngins to get the deal done just the money doesnt work. Lowe is staying put unless a team is willing to pay most of his remaining 30 mil. Our team is basically set, I’d consider anything more Iceing on the Cake. If we can add 2 million to spend by dealing KK, i’m sure we’ll see another bench player or reliever added. The Braves should concentrate on getting to know Uggla and trying to work a 4 year deal out.
Nick
December 6th, 2010
5:26 pm
The Braves need a 1B, SS, CF, one RP, and a utility player before they can compete with the big boys.
DS1
December 6th, 2010
5:26 pm
If Matt Kemp is not available, let’s make a play for Shawn Kemp!
C’mon cabravesfan, don’t go bursting people’s bubbles!
Frankie Wren
December 6th, 2010
5:27 pm
Depth chart in CF
McLouth
M Young
Schafer
Lets just see how this plays out. Jordan needs some time in Gwinnett even if he goes gangbusters in March.
David O'Brien
December 6th, 2010
5:27 pm
Regarding Zack Greinke, I’m surprised how the rumors and rampant speculation of Braves’ interest in the pitcher have spread the past couple of days.
There’s nothing there. The Braves aren’t pursuing Greinke.
ijudgenot
December 6th, 2010
5:27 pm
Wren made 3 over reaches his first year as general manager trying to insure his initial success, Lowe($15mil a yr/3yrs),KK($7mil a yr/3yrs) and McClouth($7mil a yr/3yrs). Only Lowe has been worth half the amount paid out. KK and McClouth have and will continue to be busts. Its apparent that the Braves are willing to eat KK’s contract if no takers are found and either banish him to AAA or let him walk. They should do the same with McClouth. I hope Gonzalez whispers in Wren’s ear that despite the public statements of support by the players, keeping a non-producing player on the team making twice, if not more, than your best producers(Prado, Heyward,Freeman, Hinski and Ross) is not good for your overall team morale. He will be an albatross around the neck of the team for as long as he does not produce, which he won’t. He is a nice guy who got a good contract after an asterisk stamped AllStar selection season. The word out is he is untradable so the Braves have to keep him, no they don’t. Why not let him go to the Pirates where his success was and the Braves agree to pay half his contract or 2/3 of it. Schafer can not be any worse than McClouth starting in center and batting eigth in the lineup. Plus he would be making around $500k. You could use the $3mil savings to get a trade for young 3rd baseman to replace Chipper.
dpelfrey
December 6th, 2010
5:28 pm
Nick..
1B – Freeman
SS – Gonzalez
CF – McLouth/Schafer
RP – Venters, Kimbrel, Proctor, Linebrink, Moylan
Util – Conrad, Diory, PTBNL
DONE…anything else?
cabravesfan
December 6th, 2010
5:28 pm
DS1-
I’ve been trying to burst that bubble from the day it first appeared on the blog! Nobody listened to me!
Javy Vazquez had a partial no-trade clause when the Braves got him…he’s the only one that comes to my mind…
Travis
December 6th, 2010
5:28 pm
Speculation gets shot down here a lot. Only one guy on here thought Uggla was coming to the Braves becasue it was too good to be true. Some of the trade speculation is plain stupid but Frankie jukes em right out of their shorts sometimes. Just having a little fun. Lighten up.
DS1
December 6th, 2010
5:29 pm
Nick
There names are Freddie Freeman, Alex Gonzalez, Nate McLouth, Jordan Schafer and Matt Young. And yes, the Braves need a utility player and relief pitcher.
And if you didn’t notice, last year we competed with the big boys.
I’m sure that just slipped your mind, huh?
ChrisfromSacramento,Ca
December 6th, 2010
5:29 pm
Owl Hunter, Would you rather have Tommy Hanson or Carl Crawford, or Adrian Gonzalez. Hanson is good, but not that good.
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:29 pm
I’m going to make a fake trade rumor that we are going to trade Freeman, Minor, Lowe and McClouth for Prince Fielder. I bet there are at least two people on this blog who would run with this.
Andrew in PA
December 6th, 2010
5:29 pm
DOB, yeah and Ken Griffey Jr once played to the Braves.
unbelievable
December 6th, 2010
5:29 pm
The Braves need a 1B, SS, CF, one RP, and a utility player before they can compete with the big boys. – Nick
Yep, all those big boy teams made it to the playoffs last year. Wait, so did the braves.
cabravesfan
December 6th, 2010
5:30 pm
Say it with me now: It’s McLouth! Only one “C” people! (I know, I know…don’t know why I waste the energy, but it’s a personal quest of mine to get people to spell the players’ names right)
Nick
December 6th, 2010
5:30 pm
dpelfrey – are you seriously gonna put Proctor in as part of the bullpen? The guy couldn’t get A ball hitters out much less major leaguers.
Nick
December 6th, 2010
5:31 pm
Freeman – sucks, Gonzalez – sucks, McLouth – sucks.
Obee
December 6th, 2010
5:31 pm
McLouth will be comeback player of the year and make a lot of people on this blog eat crow.
Murph
December 6th, 2010
5:31 pm
Is Teheran going to come into this season as the #1 pitching prospect in all of baseball? I’ve heard something along those lines.
You don’t trade the #1 prospect in baseball, especially if he’s a pitcher, because those type of guys don’t come along all that often. Sure, there will be other prospects, and there’s no guarantee that he’ll live up to the hype, but to trade him before finding out would be crazy.
VaBravesFan
December 6th, 2010
5:31 pm
Chris,Ca
Prado has played plenty of LF in winter ball. He’s a good hitter. If Chipper goes down for long period of time Prado would move to 3rd. Hinske and possibly Mather playing time would increase in LF. The Braves seem to be very confident in Schafer. and we still have to see if Nate can bounce back we have to give the guy a chance with the money were paying him. Our team is much improved and every braves fan should be satisfied. In my opinion the Braves had made the best deal of the offseason so far. When u add a true 30+ homer slugger for a Utility player and reliever you have to be stocked. Unless your a marlins fan that is.
Lew
December 6th, 2010
5:32 pm
Owl – There were plenty then who claimed that since Heyward and Hanson were still unknown quantities we should trade them for an immediate return. Good thing they’re not GM’s.
Y’all – Teheran is projected to be a Number One starter. Not many are projected that high. You keep him and take the chance you have the kid cheap for six years and not use him for two years at $27 million of someone who has been super good and then not so much in one of the weaker divisions in MLB and who we’d have to turn around and re-sign for an inordinate amount of $$$$$.
None of these deals are happening. We got Uggla (hich most of you claimed we couldn’t) and we got Linebrink – filling the two major needs Wren claimed he was looking to fill.
I swear y’all remind me of a Bert and Ernie story I used to read my kid – One more thing and one moe thing – way past the bounds of sanity. How does it feel to Baseball Muppets?
dpelfrey
December 6th, 2010
5:32 pm
ChrisfromSacramento,Ca …
Yes, I would rather have a potential 15-game winner broken out of the John Smoltz mold that makes under $500,000 instead of Carl Crawford ($20 million) or Adrian Gonzalez ($20 million soon enough). It’s about value, my friend.
RC
December 6th, 2010
5:33 pm
ChrisfromSacramento,Ca,
The Braves scored 740 runs last year, good for 13th in MLB. The 14th place team was the defending WS champion Giants. In addition to that, the Braves added a guy who had 33 HR, 100 runs scored, and 105 RBI last year to a lineup that’s essentially the same as the one that scored 740 runs last year. Combine all that with the fact that it’s almost impossible for McLouth to be less productive than he was last year (and if he is they’ll replace him), and it seems very obvious that this offense will score runs, while continuing to prevent them at a very good rate (they were 4th in runs allowed last year).
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:33 pm
Chris
For money, and years of usefulness standpoint, I’d take Hanson. He’s 23 years old. He hasn’t peaked yet. The other guys have or are about to. Good pitching beats good hitting. We can win today without completely sacrificing the future. That’s how good organizations work. If you were a GM trading top young pitching like it’s nothing, hacks like Ed Wade would be punking you left and right.
Murph
December 6th, 2010
5:33 pm
McLouth will be comeback player of the year and make a lot of people on this blog eat crow.
Comeback Player of the Year should be limited to players who got hurt or were out of the game for some reason other than a total loss of skill. The thought of McLouth being rewarded for playing decent after playing like he did last year makes me sick.
ajj
December 6th, 2010
5:34 pm
Would a package around JJ an heyward be enough to land Oil Can Boyd?
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:34 pm
Carlos Gonzalez would be the ONLY player i would be willing to give up the farm for
but no Freeman
still leaves alot of top specs
dpelfrey
December 6th, 2010
5:35 pm
Murph, I bet Nate sucked it last year so he would have a shot at the comeback player award. That makes sense.
Hey ajj, I heard Oil Can is still pitching.
DS1
December 6th, 2010
5:35 pm
WOW! We are making a play for Prince Fielder!!!
DS1
December 6th, 2010
5:37 pm
I’ll keep Hanson over Crawford or AG.
Now, I might deal him for Ryan Braun? Maybe…..
Travis
December 6th, 2010
5:37 pm
It’s about value, my friend.
Now there is a topic for the stat gurus. Value per dollar. How would ya do it. Based on just plain ole hits per dollar, innings per dollar? Wins per dollar, post season appearances per dollar? Interesting.
MikeInFl
December 6th, 2010
5:38 pm
Tommy Hanson or Carl Crawford, or Adrian Gonzalez
Not a fair question, chirs. Let’s put it this way. You’ve got $100 mil to play with over the next 5 years. You can have Tommy Hanson for, maybe $15 mil over that period , and an extra $85 mil to spend on other pieces.
Or you can have Carl Crawford, and nothing else. Or Adrian Gonzalez, and nothing else.
I guess there’s still a couple of ways to answer, but let’s at least ask the question so that it makes sense.
We get it chris. You don’t think prospects turn into good players; you don’t think pitching matters; and you don’t recognize financial constraints.
RC
December 6th, 2010
5:38 pm
Carlos Gonzalez would be the ONLY player i would be willing to give up the farm for
Carlos Gonzalez is at the top of my list of players I would NOT be willing to give up the farm for. Not unless he gets to take all of his at-bats in Coors Field.
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:38 pm
Braves4life
I’m not sure I’d give up the farm for CarGo just yet. Let’s see if he can keep this up first.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:39 pm
DS1
a play for Prince Fielder????
source would be nice
Murph
December 6th, 2010
5:39 pm
dpelfrey, I bet Nate sucked last year because he sucks. That makes more sense to me.
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:40 pm
Chris
Remember when we recieved one whole season of JD Drew, and all it cost us was ADAM F’N WAINRIGHT?!?
dpelfrey
December 6th, 2010
5:40 pm
Chris is from California. In his mind, it’s okay to overspend on players and run a huge deficit. That’s the norm out there.
RC
December 6th, 2010
5:40 pm
DS1
a play for Prince Fielder????
source would be nice
DS1 got his windows mixed up. Must have thought he was on the Dodgers blog.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:40 pm
RC
Ouch, just looked at his home/away splits and he was just decent on the road.
You are right
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:41 pm
OK. We got one sucker for my fake Prince Fielder rumor (with an assist from DS1). Who’s next?
Supes
December 6th, 2010
5:41 pm
Looks like the Orioles got Mark Reynolds from the D’Backs for 2 relievers….wow…I’m amazed at that deal and how little the D’Backs got back….I guess I was over estimating his value?
Question…why didn’t the Braves give them a call if all it took to get him was 2 relievers? How would have Mark Reynolds fit here with the Braves (considering Chipper’s future at 3B is questionable and short term at best).
Also…what is Teheran’s ceiling projected as? Is he thought of as highly as we did of Tommy Hanson? I know he is rated our number 1 prospect but as far as stuff (I’ve never seen him pitch) so anyone here with more knowledge please feel free to post some comments on it.
BTW…if the Brewers were offering Ryan Braun to KC (or anyone else)…Braves would be crazy to NOT make a call and see what they can do. His best years are ahead of him and he’d solidify LF for years.
On a side note…I hope the Phillies end up with FRANCINE….it’ll be a place to go get an easy out in their lineup.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:42 pm
Owl Hunter
It was just one of those trades that worked out for the Cardinals. J.D drew had some monster seasons for the Braves. He pretty much gave us what we wanted/needed.
Not all specs turn out to be stars
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:42 pm
The Orioles can have Reynolds and his 8 billion strikeouts.
cabravesfan
December 6th, 2010
5:42 pm
Chris is from California. In his mind, it’s okay to overspend on players and run a huge deficit. That’s the norm out there.
dpelfrey -
Ummm, I beg to differ. I don’t feel that way at all!
RC
December 6th, 2010
5:44 pm
Supes,
Teheran’s ceiling is higher than Hanson’s, but he’s also much younger, and much less certain than Hanson was. But his ceiling is multiple Cy Young winner.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:44 pm
Supes
When you have 211 K’s and a .198 avg. you will not be a great trade bate
Jeff R
December 6th, 2010
5:44 pm
Schafer wants back in a bad way – good for him. Hopefully, his bat will live up to its potential and the Braves gain a long term solution in CF.
Obee
December 6th, 2010
5:44 pm
That concussion didn’t help McLouth much, either.
Supes
December 6th, 2010
5:44 pm
Owl Hunter,
Come on now…he is a legit RH power hitter…isn’t that our biggest need (yes I know we got UGGLA) but I can be greedy
nolie
December 6th, 2010
5:44 pm
Chipperr hit 246 one year, thats about the same as Nate hitting 190. wonder what happened to ol’ Chippy?
BravesFanChris26
December 6th, 2010
5:45 pm
I just got an idea.
Not sure if this would work. What if Wren can unload Kawakami (well, at least a few million out of it) and then sign Ty Wigginton as the utility guy and can’t he play SS too?
Lew
December 6th, 2010
5:45 pm
Supes – He’s thought of higher than Hanson. He is projected as a true number one starter. He isn’t even 20 yet and has three to four pitches that he can control.
Supes
December 6th, 2010
5:45 pm
RC thanks for that reply…I can’t wait to see him pitch for AAA Braves so I can actually go down to the stadium and see him pitch live to get a real idea of his control/velocity/stuff in person.
Andrew in PA
December 6th, 2010
5:45 pm
I’d offer Prado JJ for Bruan and Cain
Rob from SC
December 6th, 2010
5:46 pm
BRewers fleeced the Blue Jays. Marcum is a really good pitcher
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:47 pm
Supes
I guess, but Uggla fills this need, and bullpen depth will be important this season.
BravesFanChris26
December 6th, 2010
5:47 pm
“Braves have made progress in uggla extension talks. He loves fredi and is said to be thrilled to be traded there.”
This is per Jon Heyman. Perhaps an extension can happen at the meetings
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:47 pm
I dont really see the need for a Grineke or a Cain
We need a bat and thats it
Supes
December 6th, 2010
5:47 pm
Brave4life- We almost had it
Yes I’m aware of the K’s and the low batting average…I do wonder how much of that was the fact that he didn’t have much protection in that lineup, and maybe lacked discipline as a relatively young player…I’m just saying he’s gotta be intriguing if his only flaw is striking out. Is that something that can be “fixed” or if not fixed cut down to a respectable number for a power hitter. I mean guys like Ryan Howard strike out a lot and Adam Dunn….surely someone can work with Reynold on that.
unbelievable
December 6th, 2010
5:48 pm
Wigginton cant play SS
Supes
December 6th, 2010
5:49 pm
Rob from SC,
agreed on that deal with the Jays/Brewers. He is a very solid pitcher.
Jeff R
December 6th, 2010
5:49 pm
Mark Reynolds… Hadn’t tracked him at all during the season, When I saw that Reynolds had .198 batting average, I thought it was a typo. He’s got pop, but, man, he’s dead wood, otherwise.
Bal’imore fans most be sick and tired of Angelos running a once great franchise into the ground season after season.
ChrisfromSacramento,Ca
December 6th, 2010
5:49 pm
Owl Hunter, RC , keep the being optimust. The Braves will be playing for a wild card at best.
Hanson is not Smoltz first off. I understand Value. If im not mistaking Adrian Gonzalez made 5 mill last year. Hmm would have been nice to have him last year and not Derrek Lee. Prospects could have made that happen. And then maybe the braves score 3 runs and not 2 or none off Matt Cain.
Prospects are a source to make the BIG LEAGUE TEAM BETTER.
Braves have a rookie playing first. Heyward is well overrated. Chipper comming back, we hope. and Left Field, and center are a question mark at best.
You guys want to win in 2017. You two guys dont seem to think winning now is important.
Ha Prado plays LF in winter ball. That is a long way from Playing the Phillies when it matters.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:50 pm
Supes
I do wonder how much of that was the fact that he didn’t have much protection in that lineup,
Kelly Johnson
Justin Upton
Stephen Drew
Adam Laroche
Chris Young
He had MORE than enough protection.
Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)
December 6th, 2010
5:51 pm
Here are a couple of links to Lorenzo Cain:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcuE9uoCbmk
And an article written by a Brewers fan which is somewhat optimistic:
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/432432-lorenzo-cain-is-willing-and-abel
VaBravesFan
December 6th, 2010
5:51 pm
Andrew in PA
Yeah and the Brewers would just hang up very quickly.
Rob from SC
December 6th, 2010
5:52 pm
Supes
David Hernandez is talented
cabravesfan
December 6th, 2010
5:52 pm
Chris-
First, the Padres were not overly interested in trading Gonzalez last year. Second, calling Heyward “well overrated” is boardline laughable. Last, Prado has played against the Phillies quite a few times. Just because he’s playing a different position doesn’t mean he’ll forget how to hit or catch…
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:52 pm
Supes
think of it this way
Reynolds had 99 hits and 32 were HR
one of his every 3 hits were HR
I would love that type of HR/HIT ratio anytime. ONLY if he had 200 hits
BravesFanChris26
December 6th, 2010
5:53 pm
Dayton Moore is on MLBN right now. First time I have gotten to see what he looks like.
Travis
December 6th, 2010
5:53 pm
ChrisfromSacramento,Ca ….What franchise do you support? If you can spell the name…sound it out with Phonics
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:53 pm
Chris
You are absolutley hopeless. If it were up to you, we’d have nobody under the age of 34 on the club. We are much closer to the Phils than we would be if you called the shots. Put away the Xbox, and study the money, contract length, and scouting aspects of the game.
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:55 pm
Regarding Reynolds, keep in mind that AZ is a launch pad. he won’t hit quite as many HRs in a pitcher’s park. Without HRs, he’s useless.
unbelievable
December 6th, 2010
5:56 pm
If im not mistaking Adrian Gonzalez made 5 mill last year. Hmm would have been nice to have him last year and not Derrek Lee. – ChrisfromSaca
post all star numbers
Adrian – .294/.388/.485
Derrek – .298/.373/.516
Dont see how Adrian wouldve solved anything for us. Dont think we were looking for another LH bat either
Murph
December 6th, 2010
5:57 pm
Chris from CA, you do realize that MLB players come from somewhere, don’t you? They aren’t left under GM’s pillows or hatched out of some magical golden egg and just appear on MLB rosters. They start off as prospects in somebody’s organization.
Prospects aren’t just for trading. If Teheran does live up to his potential then the Braves would be trading a future #1 starter. What are they going to do 3 years from now when they don’t have a #1 starter? Pay $20mil a year out of desperation? No thanks.
Owl Hunter
December 6th, 2010
5:58 pm
I think Chris is Brian Cashman in disguise.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
5:58 pm
unbelievable
No one in the Braves organizations REALLY wanted Gonzalez. Yes, he woulda been nice but I am ready for a long term 1b Freddie “free me” freemen
Patrick
December 6th, 2010
6:00 pm
Per rotoworld.com
According to SI.com’s Jon Heyman, the Braves and Dan Uggla are making progress toward an extension.
Heyman says Uggla was “thrilled” to be traded to Atlanta and “loves” manager Fredi Gonzalez, who was his skipper for a time with the Marlins. Uggla rejected a four-year, $48 million offer from the Marlins, which led to him being traded. It remains to be seen if he’s willing to take a similar deal from the Braves or if he wants more money no matter which team is offering it.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
6:00 pm
JETS PATRIOTS
gametime baby
unbelievable
December 6th, 2010
6:00 pm
Heyward is well overrated. – ChrisfromSaCa
21yr old, .393OBP, .849OPS, 6th best defensive RF’r…yep, overrated
jason
December 6th, 2010
6:00 pm
This offf season isnt done yet. I want to see the braves go after a shortstop justin upton.
unbelievable
December 6th, 2010
6:02 pm
Brave4life – I know that, that was my point. Lee put up very similar numbers to Adrian after the allstar break. He was injured also.
P'cola Brave
December 6th, 2010
6:02 pm
So I guess I was right earlier. There is actually some interest in Lorenzo Cain. Any word on what the asking price is?
BravesFanChris26
December 6th, 2010
6:06 pm
MLBTR is making Matt Lindstrom and Jeff Keppinger available. I heard some say something about The Kepster.
O.J.
December 6th, 2010
6:07 pm
jason, first of all, Upton is an Outfielder, and secondly, NO!
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
6:07 pm
P’cola Brave
Pitching
nolie
December 6th, 2010
6:08 pm
Heyward is well overrated Chris
what a load. he had a great rookie year
P'cola Brave
December 6th, 2010
6:08 pm
B4L
What kind? Prospects or Minor/Beachy?
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
6:09 pm
P’cola Brave
major league ready pitchers
They want someone like Marcum, who they got from toronto
Bama Brave
December 6th, 2010
6:10 pm
O.j. why no on upton?
MIBravesFan
December 6th, 2010
6:10 pm
“BravesFanChris26
December 6th, 2010
5:47 pm
“Braves have made progress in uggla extension talks. He loves fredi and is said to be thrilled to be traded there.”
This is per Jon Heyman. Perhaps an extension can happen at the meetings.”
That’s good to hear. Thanks for passing it along, Chris.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
6:10 pm
P’cola Brave
It would be nice if Beachy + mid level spec could get it done
P'cola Brave
December 6th, 2010
6:11 pm
That’d be a tough decision. I really don’t know much about the Cain kid but looks like he could be a solid player. Plus controlable for awhile.
Brave4life- We almost had it
December 6th, 2010
6:12 pm
The Mariners signed a top Dominican prospect to a deal that includes the highest international amatuer signing bonus of the year, according to Ben Badler of Baseball America. Esteilon Peguero, a 17-year-old shortstop who is one of the most advanced hitting prospects in Latin America, signed for $2.9MM. The right-handed hitter has good bat speed, but may eventually move to second or third base.
nolie
December 6th, 2010
6:12 pm
th best defensive RF’r…unbelievable
Yup! he was even voted 4th best by Fielding Bible panel, which is prolly more reliable than most pure stats.
guy is a bit of all right, no doubt.
nolie
December 6th, 2010
6:14 pm
Beachy + someone else for Cain? Did I read that right?