Francoeur in World Series, Chipper’s rehab update, etc.

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3,230 comments Add your comment

nolie

October 26th, 2010
3:49 pm

It’s a useless question N8, which is why nobody is bothering to answer it. It’s one a them hypothetical scenarios that you so get off on that are really more mental masturbation than they are anything else. Totally meaningless in the real world, and impossible to answer because without that trade being made we have no idea what would have occurred, if they would even have developed to the same place they are at now. or they might have been traded the next season for even less.
those two comments are all you’re gonna get from me, but I don’t think your claims are receiving the positive response that you think they deserve, but maybe Mitchell or Robert or Don will show up and back your reasoning.

bobbymahlon

October 26th, 2010
3:55 pm

If the Braves trade Prado or Kimbrel for Rasmus they are nuts. These two are going to be key players for many years to come. If the Braves got Franceour he should be placed in right field and move Heyward to left or center. Jeff has a better arm and covers right better than Heyward (former gold glover). McLouth cannot play center or right because he has a worse arm than most any outfielder I have ever seen.

unbelievable

October 26th, 2010
3:57 pm

Jeff Francoeur should never be a memeber of the Braves again. We need outfield solutions not more problems

Murph

October 26th, 2010
3:59 pm

All this talk of past Braves and nobody has suggested bringing Hank out of retirement? I would rather have a 76 year old Hank in LF than Nate.

No, I’m not kidding. I would buy tickets to see that.

Brave4life

October 26th, 2010
4:02 pm

No more platoons in the OF

I miss out hitting era

Prime Marcus Giles
Furcal
Javy lopez
Chipper
Jd Drew
andruw Jones
Gary Sheffield
Vinny Castilla

MiaBchBravesFan

October 26th, 2010
4:02 pm

Done deal. Baylor is the D-backs new hitting coach.

TnBrian

October 26th, 2010
4:04 pm

nolie, about Tex- lets talk about it. F*** 2011, I want to relive the summer of 2007 when Teixeira was brought to Atlanta and what was sent to Texas in the deal. I really can’t get enough of it.

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
4:04 pm

first of all the discussion is about Feliz. NOT Elvis.

Apologies all around.

Now do a search and replace of Elvis for Feliz in my comment. It’s still the same. It’s a terrible, horrible premise and an absolutely pointless question.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:05 pm

got nuttin’ against platoons myself. rich successful baseball tradition.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:06 pm

I’m responding to someone else Brian, I did nor originate the discussion, go fuss at him ;)

NEW CARS

October 26th, 2010
4:07 pm

Kimbrel’s nice and all that, but I would trade him in a heartbeat for a 4-5 tool talent like Rasmus. Would rather have a RH bat, but I would take him nevertheless. A core of Heyward, Freeman, Prado, McCann and Rasmus would be a good start to longterm success. We have Venters, Marek, Dunn or a guy like Vizcaino who could come in as a closer, or go get a free agent like we did last year.
I think you could come up with 20 available potential closers in our organization or the open market that would compare to Kimbrel right now. I’ve seen the lists, but you guys refresh my memory on the 15-20 guys that might be available who could compare to Rasmus. Keep in mind that Rasmus will cost only a fraction more than Kimbrel over the next couple of years.
The true untouchables in the organization should be Heyward, Hanson, McCann, Prado and Teheran. Anyone else should be on the table, but only for similar talent in similar conditions (ie. salary and time of control and mental state).
I still wouldn’t be against a run at Gonzalez if he could be signed for 5-6 years at 16-18 mill.

TnBrian

October 26th, 2010
4:09 pm

nolie, I know I know. I was just messin with you because I know you, like me, have been sick of the whole Tex thing for years now.

Pameeee

October 26th, 2010
4:10 pm

unbelievable

October 26th, 2010
3:57 pm
Jeff Francoeur should never be a memeber of the Braves again. We need outfield solutions not more problems

Thank you, thank you very much, I agree.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:11 pm

maybe it’s the right brain, left brain thingy N8. we approach things from a 180 degree opposite. I believe in hard logic and reality you are more creative and imaginative. When you challenge me to answer a question or reply to a concept that I find pretty meaningless I gots to admit that it sometimes irritates me and I respond more harshly than I should.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:12 pm

yup, I could live out my few remaining years without ever hearing about that trade again, and be perfectly happy Brian ;)

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:15 pm

I’m really surprised that people are willing to toss Kimbrell aside considering Kimbrell would not be the centerpiece of a deal to get Rasmus or Kemp. And considering the hell we went through in the 90s of watching the bullpen cost us championships.

For maybe the first time, in the history of the club we have a potentially dominant 1-2 punch in the bullpen that will be cheap for the next 5 years. I don’t think we should be willing to give it away at all.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:22 pm

I don’t think we should be willing to give it away at all. LPad

I see your point and kinda agree. Other may be thinking thatt both are too young and too inexperienced to be totally certain they will continue to be as good-I think it is likely though- and a top quality hitter will impact a season more often than a closer usually does, or at least that is the thinking of many.
I would be reluctant to lose either , it would take a special return IMO.
I’ve been a believer for years that the pen is becoming more and more important to a team as the starting pitching spends less time on the mound than it used to. Need a balance of all 4 assets, to have the most chance to be successful.

Gone Viral

October 26th, 2010
4:22 pm

The first Teixeira trade is the most disappointed I’ve been with a personnel move since the Dale Murphy deal in 1990, one that represented the end of an era. As much as I disliked the Wainwright trade (I never cared for JD Drew as a player), the Tex deal is one where I found myself wondering if our GM was being blackmailed. It was that outrageous to me. The “good” news since then is that Salty hasn’t been what he had been projected to be. Everything else about it makes me sick to my stomach.

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:24 pm

N8, forget it. The rest of this blog is still in denial.

Murph

October 26th, 2010
4:25 pm

Don’t forget, they didn’t just get Tex, they also got Ron Mahay… for Salty and 4 of our best minor league players… 4 of our best… 4… son of a…

TnBrian

October 26th, 2010
4:25 pm

LPad, it’s ok. Nobody here makes any trades in real life anyways.

NEW CARS

October 26th, 2010
4:26 pm

I’m not for giving it away, but if Kimbrell can be the key in a trade to get someone like Delmon Young, Rasmus or Ben Zobrist, then I would be ok with it. There are plenty of closers available and we may already have one in Venters. We don’t have guys like that in our system.

AdirondackDave

October 26th, 2010
4:26 pm

LPad — I agree with you on that. Kimbrel has to be added to the untouchable list. In fact, I would have him in front on Mac on that list.

NEW CARS

October 26th, 2010
4:27 pm

DOB,
Do Wren and the front office look at Wilken Ramirez as anything other than a AAA roster filler. Do you sense that they might think they have a lottery ticket there and that he might develop into what the Tigers thought he would be.

ncscoots

October 26th, 2010
4:27 pm

Other may be thinking thatt both are too young and too inexperienced to be totally certain they will continue to be as good

Trading one of Kimbrell or Venters leaves them pretty much banking on the one that is left, also. At least with both in the pen, you have a better chance that one of the two will fulfill the hopes and dreams of oour contributors. :-)

Murph

October 26th, 2010
4:27 pm

Taken from the Tex trade announcement:

“When asked if it would be worth giving up so many prospects if Teixeira is in Atlanta for only two years, Schuerholz shrugged.

“I’ll think about next year next year,” Schuerholz said.

“If we win two pennants it is, or one World Series and one pennant. We wouldn’t have done it if we didn’t think it was worth it. We hope the result is that we win because of it, but there are no guarantees in baseball,” he said.”

No guarantees in baseball.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:28 pm

everybody to their own GV. I fail to understand that thinking, but then you must fail to understand mine
I do find it hard to know why folks keep obsessing about something that old when nobody has a real idea of what might have happened if it didn’t go down. It’s over, been over, let it go IMO.
I have little thought for evaluating things with hindsight, but I am gathering from the tenor of your post that you hated it from the beginning?

Glen W

October 26th, 2010
4:28 pm

There is also no crying in baseball. So get off of it, N8. :)

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:29 pm

yup, just coach and N8, the rest of us are maroons ;)

AZBravoFan

October 26th, 2010
4:29 pm

If the Braves want to compete next year they cannot touch the bullpen. We see every year why you need a deep bullpen. During the course of a long season, guys are going to tire or get nagging injuries. If the Braves trade Kimbrell, and make Venters the closer, that’s all well and good until Venters gets a sore elbow or pulls a hammy or whatever. Then what? Anyone comfortable with Moylan in that role for an extended period? Dunn? Proctor? Maybe, but we don’t know right now. Much rather have the bullpen depth and use our farm system to get the outfielder we need.

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:29 pm

It’s simple.

We got Tex and went bust. The Rangers got Andrus, Feliz and they are playing in the World Series.

Frank Wren

October 26th, 2010
4:30 pm

My solution to the OF problem is:
1. Jason in RF.
2. Buy Nate a new bat & glove and keep him in CF
3. LF-find an out of work, lifetime .230 hitter & pay him $6-$7 million per year

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:31 pm

nolie , at least you are honest about it :)

Murph

October 26th, 2010
4:31 pm

“Trading one of Kimbrell or Venters leaves them pretty much banking on the one that is left, also. At least with both in the pen, you have a better chance that one of the two will fulfill the hopes and dreams of oour contributors.”

In my opinion that’s playing things too safe. Gotta take some risks if you want the big reward. I’d rather see the Braves offer one of them up if it will get a deal done for a big bat. Maybe they trade Kimbrel and he blows his arm out… maybe they keep him and he blows his arm out… there’s no way to tell.

Shoulda woulda coulda. I’d rather see the Braves do something, anything, than to sit idle while the other teams in the division get better.

TnBrian

October 26th, 2010
4:32 pm

nolie, couldn’t agree more about a pen. My God, I couldn’t count how many games that pen literally won us this year. They were the main reason, imo, why we even made the playoffs. Our starters, outiside of Hudson, were up and down early and the mid season and two got hurt. The bullpen saved a ton of games.

I’d be ticked if they deal Kimbrel or Venters. You’re just asking for trouble right there with both Wagner and Saito gone now.

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:32 pm

Good point, TnBrian.

P'cola Brave

October 26th, 2010
4:32 pm

Coach

Yeah because the other all stars on the Rangers didn’t contribute.

Murph

October 26th, 2010
4:33 pm

“It’s simple.

We got Tex and went bust. The Rangers got Andrus, Feliz and they are playing in the World Series.”

Yeah, NOTHING else has happened since 8/1/07 to cause the Rangers’ rise and the Braves’ demise.

Gone Viral

October 26th, 2010
4:34 pm

“I am gathering from the tenor of your post that you hated it from the beginning?”

Oh yeah. That deal went from being Salty for Tex to Salty and the rest of our farm system for Tex in about 6 weeks. Braves fans wanted to be happy about it and people got very angry with me for saying we’d paid $1.50 for a dollar. All we got out of the Tex deal was a good YouTube video.

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:36 pm

nolie, normally I wouldn’t be so adamant about bullpen guys. But a young one-two, left-right combo with stuff that borders on elite, back-end stuff has to be rare. If both pan out, we could be looking at a Wetteland/Rivera type combo for the next 5 years and probably more.

I’m going to need more than Matt Kemp to part with that opportunity.

unbelievable

October 26th, 2010
4:36 pm

We got Tex and went bust. The Rangers got Andrus, Feliz and they are playing in the World Series – Coach

yeah, Andrus just picked up the slack that Hamilton, Vlad, Cruz, Kinsler, and Young left behind. .643OPS at SS would just make the Braves so much better

CraZyTRaDeMaN

October 26th, 2010
4:37 pm

OK enough about the Tex trade lets discuss how we totally got hosed on the Dale Murphy trade. Jeff Parrett, Victor Rosario and Tommy Greene……….. Really that’s all. What a Joke!!!! The Texiera trade was nothing compared this hose job WTH was booby thinking? :roll:

Jake W.

October 26th, 2010
4:37 pm

We got Tex and went bust. The Rangers got Andrus, Feliz and they are playing in the World Series

Or we could look at it like it really is and say they got Josh Hamilton, then Vlad, oh and they acquired that Cliff Lee guy. Thats why they are in the world series. Sorry but we got enough bullpen help so don’t need Feliz and had we had Andrus all year we probably don’t even make the playoffs because if you really look at the production he gave Texas during the regular season it was nothing much at all.

ncscoots

October 26th, 2010
4:37 pm

have little thought for evaluating things with hindsight, but I am gathering from the tenor of your post that you hated it from the beginning?

GV would have been the only one on this forum, then, LOL. Are you kidding? Nobody, and I mean nobody, mentioned Feliz in a rant (why would they? He was low-minors kid with a big arm and little command) and I’m about the only guy who whimpered even a little about Andrus. (OK, I think Efrim may have gotten a couple shots in there, too, but there was sure was no uproar.) You had more p***ing about Beau Jones being thrown in at the last minute than you did about the two guys who have actually made it to the bigs.

99% of the folks who moan about that trade here freakin’ LOVED it when it was made. The archives don’t lie.

N8

October 26th, 2010
4:38 pm

I’m sure you’re right guys. I’m guessing the Tigers fans NEVER thought another second about the Smoltz/Alexander trade. Probably didn’t bother them one bit watching Smoltz dominate for 2 decades for another team.

But hey, at least Atlanta and the Tigers both got what they wanted out of those trades. The guy they brought in helped lead them to the playoffs, right?

TnBrian

October 26th, 2010
4:38 pm

You could probably get away with packaging Dunn in a deal for hitter. Yeah, you gotta give to receive, but I’d rather not if it means weakening our strongest spot. Even without dealing anybody out of there it might not be as strong without Wagner and a healthy Saito.

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:38 pm

Especially, given that neither has really shown anything other than Kimbrell’s control issues (which I think he will overcome with experience) that would indicate they won’t reach their potential.

J.S.

October 26th, 2010
4:38 pm

The Tex trade might not have worked out but at least Tex is productive. It wasn’t as bad as those dumb deals by ‘what’s his name’ to acquire Kawacommie and McLouth.

Steve McP

October 26th, 2010
4:39 pm

Just realised that for all the wailing and gnashing of teeth about the Tex trade.

Look back and you will see that before that trade we had Scott Thorman at First Base and were still only 3 1/2 games behind in the East – at that point it was surely seen as the Braves moving to make the play offs.

Of course by the time that we were down to starting with Mark Redman, Jeff Bennett and Anthony Lerew (I had to look this up, could not believe some of the names of the 28 people that pitched for the Braves that year – by comparison, in 2010 even in what seemed like a year that we had a lot of pitchers injured we only used 21.

Murph

October 26th, 2010
4:39 pm

I’m still trying to get over Davies for Dotel. I mean, c’mon… Kyle Davies! The guy would have gone 32-1 for the Braves last year.

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:39 pm

P’cola Brave, exactly my point.

Because three years ago I remember one blogger was screaming… Trade for Nelson Cruz. I wonder who he could have been??

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
4:40 pm

NOTHING else has happened since 8/1/07 to cause the Rangers’ rise and the Braves’ demise.

Spot on. Absolutely nothing Murph. The entire episode of events between then and now is meaningless. Josh Hamilton joining the Rangers by a trade of Volquez, no impact. Signing Vlad on the cheap for DH, no impact. Acquiring Cliff Lee for Justin Smoak, no impact. What made the Rangers AL champs is a sub 700OPS short stop and a closer… and a [since traded] catcher with the yips… and a minor league reliever with a 1.5 WHIP… and a young starter with a career 5.39 ERA and 1.5 WHIP over the last three years.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:40 pm

I whined a lil bit about Feliz, I remember how you used to be an Andrus guy…but then you were a KJ guy too. how wrong can one man be????

Gone Viral

October 26th, 2010
4:40 pm

““I’ll think about next year next year,” Schuerholz said.

And then he chose not to be GM the next year.

“No guarantees in baseball.”

There are not but it’s like poker. If you go all in with 7/2 off suit, you’re not just gambling. You’re gambling recklessly.

I fully expect a division to exist on this trade for the rest of time, but I think that even the staunchest defenders of the deal know that it was at the minimum a bad decision in hindsight. What I loved about the Derrek Lee deal this year is that we paid for him with change we could find behind our couch cushions. Those are my types of trades.

marv kleeman

October 26th, 2010
4:40 pm

Like a “mad” scientist working to find the right formula; I FINALLY found a lineup I’m comfortable with for the 2011 season.

1) Matt Young CF
2) Martin Prado 2B
3) Chipper Jones 3B
4) Jorge Cantu LF
5) Brian McCann C
6) Jason Heyward RF
7) Freddie Freeman / Barbaro Canizares 1B
8) Alex Gonzales ss
9) Starting Pitcher

Starting Pitchers:

1) Tim Hudson
2) Derek Lowe
3) Tommy Hanson
4) Jair Jurrjens
5) Mike Minor / Brandon Beachy

Bench:
David Ross, Omar Infante, Diory Hernandez, Nate McLouth

Optional
(Matt Diaz, Eric Hinske) but only if they agree to sign “team friendly” contracts.

Bullpen:
Kerry Wood / J.J. Putz CLOSER
Craig Kimbrel
Johnny Venters
Mike Dunn
Peter Moylan
Eric O’Flaherty
Cristhian Martinez (Long Relief)

Footnotes**

The “missing” piece to the formula was finding a starting left fielder and cleanup hitter.

When I stumbled upon Jorge Cantu my eyes practically popped out of my head. I could not believe what I was looking at.

During the 2008 and 2009 seasons; Jorge Cantu was so productive he totaled only 8 RBI’s less than the combined totals of Alex Rodriguez for those two seasons.

2008 and 2009
Alex Rodriguez 203 RBI’s

2008 and 2009
Jorge Cantu 195 RBI’s

Until than; I had been tinkering with the likes of Xavier Nady, Bll Hall and Matt Gamel (the latter via trade).

I’m still in favor of signing a veteran closer. I love the kids (Craig Kimbrel, Johnny Venters and Mike Dunn) but what happens the first time Craig Kimbrel gives up a three run homer in the bottom of the ninth inning to Ryan Howard blowing a two run lead.

Does he become “shell shocked” like Joey Devine or does he respond like Billy Wagner or John Smoltz who couldn’t wait to get back out there the next day.

F.W.

October 26th, 2010
4:41 pm

I wonder what Fredi would think about moving Brooks to shortstop?

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:41 pm

I agree about Dunn, but I don’t think he’ll be more than an average lefty specialist. His fastball is extremely straight and his slider is to flat for me. I really didn’t like Bobby using him down the strecth, but EOF was hurt.

TnBrian

October 26th, 2010
4:41 pm

Excuse me for being a little slow here (I am from TN, so ….), but I’m just realizing why there’s so much bitterness going on with that Tex trade. Because the Rangers are in the World Series now? I’ll go with Jake W. and say they got more than just Andrus and Feliz to get them to the WS. I highly doubt an average hitting/fielding SS and a closer are the main reasons their where they are right now. They got a little more help on the way, I’m sure.

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:42 pm

So, concerning J.D. Drew and Mark Teixeira. The moral of the story is…..

Buy now, pay later.

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:43 pm

That Cliff Lee acquistion probably helped, so did Nelson Cruz, Vlad, Hamilton, Molina, etc, etc.

Jake W.

October 26th, 2010
4:43 pm

But hey, at least Atlanta and the Tigers both got what they wanted out of those trades. The guy they brought in helped lead them to the playoffs, right?

Smoltz was a part of one of the best pitching rotations in history and is widely considered a future hall of famer for his work as starter and closer. When Andrus or Feliz or Salty, or Harrison and whoever the else heck in that trade is looked at in that light then you guys can b!tch. Till then, none of them are currently worth all the second guessing you guys are doing.

Murph

October 26th, 2010
4:43 pm

“Spot on. Absolutely nothing Murph.”

You do realize I was being sarcastic, right? I never type in all caps unless I’m trying to be obnoxious.

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
4:44 pm

We got Tex and went bust. The Rangers got Andrus, Feliz and they are playing in the World Series

The Rangers got to the post season in the same amount of time after that trade as the Braves. Trade in 2007… Braves and Rangers in the post season in 2010.

ncscoots

October 26th, 2010
4:44 pm

I whined a lil bit about Feliz, I remember how you used to be an Andrus guy…but then you were a KJ guy too. how wrong can one man be????

Anything else you want to rip me with today, LOL? Don’t hold back, now. :-)

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:44 pm

I wonder what Fredi would think about moving Brooks to shortstop? FW

STOP!! you wanna give the guy a stroke???

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
4:44 pm

You do realize I was being sarcastic, right?

Right back at you Murph

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:44 pm

the American way coach

CraZyTRaDeMaN

October 26th, 2010
4:44 pm

I wonder what Fredi would think about moving Brooks to shortstop?

I don’t think he would ever think about that

N8

October 26th, 2010
4:45 pm

“Or we could look at it like it really is and say they got Josh Hamilton, then Vlad, oh and they acquired that Cliff Lee guy.” Jake W

Great points. But I never said those two guys led them to the world series. Just that they are a big part of the team. But with no Cliff Lee, there is no way they get out of the first round.

“Sorry but we got enough bullpen help so don’t need Feliz and had we had Andrus all year we probably don’t even make the playoffs because if you really look at the production he gave Texas during the regular season it was nothing much at all.”

But with Feliz, Wren doesn’t need to sign Wagner, and that money can be spent on an outfielder that would have helped the lineup.

But yes. With Andrus at SS and the addition of Feliz to our already steller bullpen, not much would have changed. Probably actually been a worse team. But it sure would have changed the landscape of the past off-season a tad, don’t you think? Like as in trading Andrus for somebody else, or trading Escobar last winter for an outfielder, knowing Andrus was ready to take over?

Like nolie said, it’s all hypothetical, and regardless of what you might think, had Tex led us to the WS and then bolted as a free agent to the Yankees, I’d still feel the same way.

Maybe I’m simply spoiled by the likes of trades of guys like Melvin Nieves or Tony Tarasco for guys like Grissom and McGriff? But man. No two ways around it, in hindsight that trade sucked ass.

Gone Viral

October 26th, 2010
4:45 pm

“Nobody, and I mean nobody, mentioned Feliz in a rant (why would they? He was low-minors kid with a big arm and little command)”

I rarely mind the A ball arms being anchor pieces in trades since they flame out so much more often than not. I will say that to UGA-Brave’s credit, he repeatedly mentioned on the Falcons board that Feliz’s inclusion was the part that he thought we would wind up regretting. For me, it was always Andrus and Salty with the Beau James think rankling as further proof that we offered to pay even more than sticker price. When I first saw Andrus play, he was already an upper level MLB defensive player and he was what, 17 (?), when I saw him at Myrtle Beach.

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:46 pm

TennesseePaul, Elvis Andrus will be a Ranger for the next decade. Gonzo will be gone after 2011. Insert Braves for Rangers and you can understand the true impact.

P'cola Brave

October 26th, 2010
4:46 pm

Coach – Buy now, pay later

Thats how it is with any trade. Just ask Boston about Hanley. To win now you have to give up talent. The Braves were in a win now. It happens all over baseball.

chris

October 26th, 2010
4:47 pm

trade minor or beachy, dunn, and pastronicky for hunter pence. then trade delgado for ellsbury. and there you go

Bobby's Cox

October 26th, 2010
4:47 pm

Glen W,

For the last time, Rasmus, no matter how talented, has not had a season as good as McLouth or Kemp has had. Both Kemp and McLouth were very good major leaguers before struggling in their 4th or 5th seasons….

McLouth had an OBP of .349 or higher 3 straight seasons before becoming abysmal. He had 4 straight seasons where he OPS’d .810, .853, .788, .810. In 2008, he hit 26 HR, 94 RBI, 23 SB, to go along with 46 doubles.

Kemp had 3 straight seasons where he OPS’d .894, 799, and .842 between 2007-2009. In 2008, his 3rd seasons, he hit 38 doubles, 18 HR, 74 RBI, and stole 35 bases. In 2009, he hit 26 HR, drove in 101 runs, and stole 34 bases. Last year was an aberration, but he still hit 28 HR. You can say well his BB/K ratio is terrible. It always has been, but so what? So is Adam Dunn’s and a lot of other power hitters. You don’t find many young players in the game that hit 30+ HR, drive in 100+ runs, AND steal more than 30+ bases that often for as cheap as Kemp, attitude and defensive lapses aside. And talking about defense, the dude plays great defense but fell into the trap that Andruw Jones, BJ Upton, and so many young players fall into. These players are still young!

Rasmus has only 2 seasons worth of experience, and his best was last year obviously. His 23 HR, 66 RBI, and .859 OPS doesn’t yet match what McLouth and Kemp have done. Could he be better? Absolutely. Could he face plant like McLouth and Kemp did this season? Absolutely!! But, I’d rather have a player like Kemp who even in his worst season so far, still hit a career high in HR with 28, and is still farther along the learning curve that players go through until they’re near 30, than Rasmus.

No matter how greatly talented Rasmus is, he is likely to go through struggles like McLouth, like Kemp, and like many other young players in baseball in this day and age where young players are abundant. This is where the comparisons lie. You can make the argument that you don’t think McLouth or Kemp will snap out of it. The consensus seems to be that McLouth won’t. But Kemp? He still hit 28 bombs last year. You sound like a high avg, OBP, speed kind of guy. So am I, and I hate the Dodgers and defending their players, but Kemp IMO is a better pick up than Rasmus.

So ask yourself, would you rather rely Rasmus, who again is LH, who is likely to go through some struggles in his mid-20’s, on this team with the risk of him struggling as soon as next season in a lefty-heavy lineup? Or would you rather have a guy like Kemp, who has more pop, is RH, is above avg defensively, can steal tons of bases, and can hit in the middle of the lineup that you can get more cheaply? Give me the latter, all day everyday when you consider all of this. If you can’t see the comparisons in these players after this, my third time breaking this down for you, I don’t know what to tell you.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:48 pm

I tried to think of another one or two but that’s all that I could remember off the top of my head Scoots.

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
4:49 pm

Elvis Andrus will be a Ranger for the next decade. Gonzo will be gone after 2011

Then bitch about the Gonzo/Yunel deal. Elvis was traded because of Yunel… SS was a position of depth at that time. Elvis was behind Lillbridge who was behind Yunel who was behind Renteria.

ncscoots

October 26th, 2010
4:50 pm

When I first saw Andrus play, he was already an upper level MLB defensive player and he was what, 17 (?), when I saw him at Myrtle Beach.

See, nolie? I bet GV and I were sitting a couple rows apart, LOL.

Even so, I always throttled down my adulation of the kid by noting that he was a long way from hitting enough. Still is, when it comes right down to it.

Gone Viral

October 26th, 2010
4:50 pm

“It wasn’t as bad as those dumb deals by ‘what’s his name’ to acquire Kawacommie and McLouth.”

I was on the board the day the McLouth deal went down and the praise for it was as universal as any I have ever seen in baseball. All of the sports journalists writing about it called it a masterstroke, the Pirates clubhouse openly revolted, and Braves fans here felt like they’d just won the lottery. It’s like the Falcons 2007 draft in that way in that the day it happened, everyone was lavish with their praise. Only in hindsight does it look like a mistake.

Rob from SC

October 26th, 2010
4:52 pm

This might sound crazy, but give me a second to explain……….

If the Braves sign a power hitting outfield, how about letting Jason Heyward leadoff…..I say this because he should have a .400 or higher OBP, around 100 walks and has speed where even if he doesn’t steal bases, he runs really well………

It also helps Prado because when Heyward is on first, it open the right side hole…

Makes sense to me

Coach (2011 and Fredi G. a GO!)

October 26th, 2010
4:52 pm

The Tigers got Doyle Alexander and a playoff appearance. We got a Hall of Fame pitcher and a WS in 1995.

Tigers fans get it, one day the rest of Braves Nation will too.

raleighbravefan

October 26th, 2010
4:52 pm

Random Thoughts –

Bullpen was our team MVP this year. I would hate to see that weakened.

We won 91 games in spite of numerous unforseen major injuries, poor performance from the OF (not named Heyward), and problems at first. All-in-all a pretty good year. The main thing is STEADY PROGRESS. I’m looking forward to seeing what else FW is able to do to improve this team, as he has every year, within the budget.

We all have wish lists in our life, and that includes for the Braves. But I would be refreshing to hear some realistic discussion of who is actually available, and affordable, and what it would actually cost us.

It does no good to keep obsessing over the loss of Escobar, Kelly Johnson, Frenchy, Andruw, Wainright, or any other prospects traded several years ago. I’ll bet GM’s on the other side would like to have back Smoltz, JJ, Infante, McGriff etc., etc., etc. How many of our “top prospects” and other players NOT turned out as expected for the other team? Answer = A LOT. You make a trade based on what you know and think and need at the time, and what you think it will cost you now and in the future. Players are human, and some trades work out, some don’t. I would say the Braves organization has won more than lost over the past 2 decades.

ncscoots

October 26th, 2010
4:53 pm

I tried to think of another one or two but that’s all that I could remember off the top of my head Scoots.

I got some Kyle Davies posts lurking in the archives somewhere, too, LOL.

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:53 pm

. Elvis was behind Lillbridge

yeah that was unbelievable to me. one of the first big brouhahas I got into here was over Lilliquist and Jones . I said they were likely gonna be busts and 50 people hit me. DOB even opened a blog with how much the Braves and AAA opposing managers thought of him .
Never understood how they thought he was better than Elvis.

P'cola Brave

October 26th, 2010
4:53 pm

N8

No the Tex deal didn’t pan out the way we wanted it to but thats baseball. Take the JJ for Renteria deal. We came out on top there. To get talent you have to spend talent. Would it be nice to have those guys still? Sure. No denying that. But at the time everybody wanted Tex and we needed Tex. All trades are gambles. We won some, we lost some. Thats how the games played.

LPad

October 26th, 2010
4:54 pm

So at what point do you guys get over this trade?

Seriously, the fact of the matter is that if Renteria didn’t get hurt in Tex’s first game and Dotel is able to pitch more than 5 innings for us, we would have made the playoffs.

We traded from strength. We had McCann, Escobar and Teheran. We were willing to part with Feliz because we had Teheran. Thinking we could have got more for these guys is a stretch. We acquired an elite hitter. Seriously, how many players out there are better hitters than Tex? Four maybe five.

Boston has been hot for Salty for years and had a good farm system. Yet, Boston wasn’t willing move Buchholz, Ellsbury or anybody else for him.

Jake W.

October 26th, 2010
4:55 pm

Come on N8, you’re talking about outfield help and we know we need it but if you think come 2010 we would have still had control of all these prospects I don’t know what to tell you. Someone was going to get traded because we have other needs than just hoarding pitching, shortstop, and catching talent. Our GM made a trade, all from positions of strength in our farm to get us power, something we are still lacking today. He could not predict what would happen to the team after that, that would in turn lead to us trading Tex but I got no problem with him making a trade to clearly improve the team without at the same time depleting our farm. I mean our farm system was still loaded enough with talent after that trade to still be considered one of the top 3 in baseball. Did it work out the best for the braves, no, but it was not some thoughtless trade that left the braves in some horrible position.

CraZyTRaDeMaN

October 26th, 2010
4:56 pm

10Paul

Its all Yunels fault if the D bag would’ve got his head out of his sphincter for a minute and realized he was acting like a tool. Maybe this conversation would mean nothing. Yunel showed he was more talented than Elvis but his ego and attitude got in the way. The only person I’ll blame is Yunel!

Skeezix

October 26th, 2010
4:56 pm

Three of the worse trades in Braves history:
-The Len Barker trade- where we gave away Brett Butler
-Trading away Jermaine Dye (a blind man could see he was going to be great)
-Trading Crime Dog-one of my favorite Braves ever- away for peanuts (something like $50,000)

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
4:56 pm

LPad: (4:54pm)- that just makes absolutely way to much sense.

jay dubu

October 26th, 2010
4:58 pm

What can the Braves do with KK?

For some of the more asute bloggers, what conclusion have you come to on him? He’s not as bad as his record, but he trows way too many pitches, making it difficult to get through 5 innings successfully.

Can the pitching coach and new manager fix him for the stretch run of his contract? Cox gave up on him last season, so his arm should be well rested for the last of his 3 year contract.

Skeezix

October 26th, 2010
4:58 pm

Don’t miss Yunel. If you can’t play for Bobby Cox and be happy…get outta here!

Efrim

October 26th, 2010
4:58 pm

I try not to think or talk about the Tex deal. I was a little baffled that we gave up Andrus, but I remember Bowman articles stating that JS was willing to do so. Feliz took off in the minds of prospect people(the Keith Law, BA, BP, etc.) after the trade. Convenient….

I’ll say this though, I haven’t seen a trade like that since. One team, trading that many prospects from it’s system for one player 18 months from free agency.(although,when was Bedard traded to Seattle?) I think the thing that bothers me more is that we got Casey Kotchman and Stephen Marek instead of the Yankees first rounder and a supp. pick. I know we needed to fill a need at first, but boy, the Kotch couldn’t of been worse. Hindsight and all that jazz, f!ck it. The trade happened and the Braves still had a Top 5 farm system two years later. There is more of a value on prospects, young players and service time than there was in the summer of 2007. I truly believe that.

Gone Viral

October 26th, 2010
4:58 pm

“Still is, when it comes right down to it.”

He doesn’t have power, but his OBP of .342 was fifth among qualifying shortstops this year (out of 22). Yunel was at .337 for a comparison. He’s not Ramirez or Tulowitzki with the bat, but he’s a lot better than people realize relative to the rest of the choices at the position. He can get on base and then he can do some damage on the base paths. He tied for first among shortstops in terms of steals with 32 and he was fifth in runs with 88. I like slugging shortstops the same as everyone else, but the reality is that there are only a handful per generation. Out of the usual type of all glove no bat shortstops, Elvis is the deluxe version because he has more skills.

ncscoots

October 26th, 2010
4:59 pm

LPad: (4:54pm)- that just makes absolutely way to much sense.

Yeah, who let that guy in here? :-)

nolie

October 26th, 2010
4:59 pm

but it was not some thoughtless trade that left the braves in some horrible position.

exactly. some times you’re the windshield some times you’re the bug. Braves have been the windshield way more often than the other way around.
If there was no chance that the guys you trade would become meaningful players why would a team trade for them, especially a player of Tex caliber?

Rick Pitino

October 26th, 2010
5:00 pm

Is this the Penthouse blog?

TennesseePaul

October 26th, 2010
5:00 pm

Never understood how they thought he was better than Elvis

Yeah.. well they did. It’s splitting hairs though. Brent was closer to the majors, Elvis was more “raw” and further away from the majors and both were behind Yunel no matter what order you put them in at the time.

LPad

October 26th, 2010
5:01 pm

One thing about the trade I do find interesting about the trade is Texas’ organizational philosophy. Both, Andrus and Feliz was rushed. In fact, I think Feliz would just be breaking in the majors now as a starter if he was still a Brave.

Efrim

October 26th, 2010
5:01 pm

All of the sports journalists writing about it called it a masterstroke, the Pirates clubhouse openly revolted, and Braves fans here felt like they’d just won the lottery.

I can remember scoots not liking it for the Braves…..

and Keith Law…….but you hate him, so what does his opinion matter?

P'cola Brave

October 26th, 2010
5:03 pm

Is Lipka playing any fall ball this year?

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