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© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
3,230 comments Add your comment
O.J.
October 26th, 2010
10:19 am
DOB, so is it safe to say that even if he left, the Braves would still have one of the best scouting departments in baseball? I would hate to not have a stockpile of young arms in the future because the scouting department changed course.
O.J.
October 26th, 2010
10:20 am
Man, I cant help but to think that if we had a healthy Chipper and Prado that it would be us in the World Series and not the Giants.
timthebrave
October 26th, 2010
10:20 am
Maybe that will keep the Phillies mouths shut until spring time. Not so easy to win a world series even if you are considered the better team and have 3 aces on your team……
David O'Brien
October 26th, 2010
10:21 am
O.J.: It wouldn’t have a big effect on something like their recent stockpiling of young arms. I say that because Fregosi does mostly major league scouting, though not entirely.
O.J.
October 26th, 2010
10:23 am
Ohhh, OK, thanks for the info DOB, I forgot that Fregosi did mostly major league scouting. We should lock up the guys that scouted Kimbrel and Venters, guys like that.
CraZyTRaDeMaN
October 26th, 2010
10:27 am
JJ will be a free agent at the end of the year and his agent is Scott Boras!
This is false he will NOT be a FA at the end of this year. He still has multiple years of Arb.
Gary O
October 26th, 2010
10:27 am
Given the Marlins and their payroll limitations, would they trade Uggla, who made $7.8 mil this year?
And would you trade Braves MVP Prado (who made $440K) for him?
The Marlins would get to dump salary, and still get a capable starter to play 2B, while we get a legit power hitter (154 HR, 465 RBIs in the last 5 seasons).
Any takers?
Daybed Wagmoe
October 26th, 2010
10:28 am
Is Rudy Jaramillo on the Braves’ radar for hitting coach?
Shaun
October 26th, 2010
10:31 am
N8 said the following: And I don’t know what more Infante has to do to prove that he can hit. Dude’s hit .309 in 3 years with the Braves in 991 AB. Time to finally admit the guy can hit. For the record (to dispute Shaun’s theory), his OBP in those 3 seasons is .350. Guy can be a viable leadoff hitter if needed.
Infante doesn’t walk and doesn’t hit for much power. That means most of his impressive batting average and on-base (most of his value at the plate) is because of contact. Now his batting average when you take out homers and strikeouts with the Braves is 30 points better than his career batting average with homers and strikeouts removed from the equation. Odds are he isn’t going to continue to be 30 points better, plus he’s not likely to hit for more power nor is he likely to walk significantly more.
I actually agree that Omar is an okay option for the Braves at leadoff; they could do worse. I also think Infante is a decent option as an everyday secondbaseman or of course a super utility guy. I don’t think he’s likely, over the next season or two, to be as bad as his career numbers (.274/.319/.395) nor do I think he’s likely to be as good as his Braves numbers (.309/.353/.411).
Too much of his value at the plate is dependent on something that probably can’t be sustained, namely his batting average with homers and strikeouts taken out being that much higher than it is for his career, for him to be extremely valuable as an everyday player. I do think he’s an adequate everyday player, though.
I think a reasonable expectation for Infante next year is something like the 2008 version, around .290/.335/.400. In 2008 his batting average with homers and strikeouts removed was a little higher than his career batting average with homers and strikeouts removed but wasn’t extremely out of line.
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2010
10:31 am
Let’s see….Phillies were reguarded as by far the best team in the NL, and maybe the entire MLB. They had 3 of the best starters in all of baseball. And they failed to make it to the WS. It must be Bobby Cox’s fault somehow, but I can’t figure out how.
Just goes to show…
David O'Brien
October 26th, 2010
10:31 am
Daybed: Jaramillo is with the Cubs. Only went there a year ago. Didn’t exactly work miracles in one season there, but again, that underscores the opinion I share with many other observers that a hitting coach isn’t going to drastically affect a team.
Just look at how long most of them last with various teams.
GTSteve
October 26th, 2010
10:33 am
@OJ, and with homefield advantage
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2010
10:33 am
Prado for Uggla – I’ll pass on that, thanks.
DAP
October 26th, 2010
10:37 am
p’cola brave Frenchy still plays pretty good defense and has a rocket of an arm. Wouldn’t be bad in the lower part of the order.
yes. he. would.
i am genuinely shocked at this sentiment. dont forget, ryan church was an upgrade over frenchy when we traded him. thats right. ryan church. c’mon people.
nobleman I can’t believe somone even mentioned Swisher, how soon we forget Milky, another Yankee castoff, fool me once?
!?!
Daybed Wagmoe
October 26th, 2010
10:42 am
Yeah, I knew that Jaramillo has been with the Cubs — I just wasn’t sure if he’s slated to stay on board with them next year. I remember hearing a while back that most coaches’ contracts are year-to-year, but I don’t know what his is like. And I thought that since Don Baylor was the Braves’ hitting coach for one year in ‘99 (albeit he left to become a manager and not hitting coach elsewhere), it’s not out of the realm of possibility for Jaramillo to be with a team for one year.
David O'Brien
October 26th, 2010
10:42 am
Gary O., the Marlins just were singled out by MLB last offseason for cutting payroll too much and not spending on players despite a new stadium on the way. As a result, they handed out a couple of decent contracts. They are reportedly working on an extension with Uggla, and I think they’re more likely to get that done than they are to move his salary and again be under scrutiny for having a payroll near bottom of majors and a new park on way that’s being built largely with taxpayer money.
Tommy T
October 26th, 2010
10:45 am
It’s amazing how quickly people have forgotten the first half of ‘09 when the bottom of the line-up was Francoeur/Johnson/Schafer/Pitcher. Half of the Braves batting order was automatic outs. Francoeur has just as much chance as being a Brave again as John Rocker.
O.J.
October 26th, 2010
10:45 am
I was really hoping that Don Baylor would have been our next hitting coach, too bad he went with the Diamondbacks. Which I wish I understood what his thinking was on that one.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
10:47 am
Payne: namely his batting average with homers and strikeouts taken out being that much higher than it is for his career
C’mon now Payne don’t be scared to use the terminology… this is BABiP. That’s what you are discussing here…. namely his [batting average on balls in play, or BABiP] being that much higher than it is for his career
GTSteve
October 26th, 2010
10:49 am
I was wondering that yesterday OJ….maybe better chance of Gibson being on a short leash, and he could be next in line….
O.J.
October 26th, 2010
10:49 am
Wish we could somehow get Dave Magadan as our hitting coach.
Murph
October 26th, 2010
10:51 am
Yeah, Uggla is not going to be moved, especially not to the Braves. He has expressed a desire to stay in Florida, and they’ve already begun talks to keep him there. So, might as well move on from that idea. Not going to happen.
Obee
October 26th, 2010
10:53 am
DOB
You are right about stoves. Our new one lasted two years before needing repair because of an electronics breakdown. Sometime plain old mechanical stuff just works better.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
10:57 am
My Grandparents have a 50 year-old refrigerator.
As far as engineered obsolescence goes these old frig’s should be trashed. I had a 45 year old frig for a while. Thought it was so cool. Couldn’t find that color or design any where on the market. It kept the beer as cold as cold be. Just wonderful.
Every time that old frig fired up the lights would dim. I always took that to be a factor of both the frig and the old wiring. I finally caved and got a new one. The new frig came on and no such thing happened. Then I got the electric bill. Turns out that old frig was single handedly responsible for the California Brown outs and Black outs of the early 00’s. My energy bill dropped by two thirds and the only change was the frig.
tony austin
October 26th, 2010
10:57 am
Daybed Wagmoe – -Player sources told ESPNChicago.com on Tuesday that Jaramillo would sign a three-year, $2.42 million contract. http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/mlb/news/story?id=4581458
Hillbillybrave
October 26th, 2010
11:00 am
DOB..any Medlin update?
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
11:01 am
any Medlin update?
Still an undersized right filled with grit and determination.
Shaun
October 26th, 2010
11:06 am
TennesseePaul, just trying to use more descriptive language over abbreviations that some people may be turned off by simply because they view it as “sabermetric.”
N8
October 26th, 2010
11:09 am
“… nor do I think he’s likely to be as good as his Braves numbers (.309/.353/.411).” shaun
Yeah, you’re right. 3 straight seasons and 991 AB, is a pretty small sample size. What was I thinking?
Shaun
October 26th, 2010
11:18 am
N8, I don’t see what sample size has to do with the fact that Infante has gotten good fortune on balls in the field of play in at least two of his three seasons with the Braves, perhaps all three. My argument that Infante is probably not quite as good as some think and that he isn’t likely to sustain his 2010 or his production with the Braves has nothing to do with sample size. My argument is based on him being extremely fortunate on balls in the field of play. So you need to start there in order to refute my argument.
Daybed Wagmoe
October 26th, 2010
11:19 am
tony austin — there it is. thanks!
Shaun
October 26th, 2010
11:23 am
N8, I grant you that we have enough of a sample size to get an idea of Infante’s true abilities. The problem is not that we don’t have enough of a sample size. Again, I agree with you that we do. The problem is that he’s gotten unusually fortunate on balls in the field of play. Even if he’s still just a little less fortunate than he was in 2010 or 2009 but is still fortunate (perhaps at 2008 levels), he’s still likely to be noticeably less productive. Now, he’ll still be an adequate major leaguer but just not borderline star-caliber as he was in 2010.
DAP
October 26th, 2010
11:25 am
shaun My argument that Infante is probably not quite as good as some think and that he isn’t likely to sustain his 2010 or his production with the Braves has nothing to do with sample size. My argument is based on him being extremely fortunate on balls in the field of play.
did you think this trough? sample size is the factor that changes random chance into actual repeatable results. sample size is everything when it comes to stats.
besides, is the argument that infante wont sustain his 2010 performance, or that he wont sustain the numbers he has put up for the last over 1000 PA?
David O'Brien
October 26th, 2010
11:26 am
Happy 59th b-day to the mighty, the funky, Bootsy Collins.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
11:28 am
simply because they view it as “sabermetric.”
It is sabermetric. Changing the name of it isn’t going to change the fact that this is a keystone stat of Sabermetricians. It is, however, going to make your sentences much harder to read.
JimD
October 26th, 2010
11:28 am
http://blogs.ajc.com/atlanta-braves-blog/2010/10/25/francoeur-in-world-series-chippers-rehab-update-etc/comment-page-7/#comment-898161
Is there a Sabermetric for “fortunate”?
N8
October 26th, 2010
11:30 am
Oh, and for those that still think Omar is in over his head as a starter?
2008: 77 games started, 90 hits, 3 HR, 36 RBI, .301/.344/.425/.768
2009: 43 games started, 54 hits, 2 HR, 22 RBI, 310/.374/.408/.782
2010: 106 games started, 143 hits, 8 HR, 42 RBI, 322/.361/.423/.784
Slice it and dice it all you want shaun. On this team, with who there is currently on the roster? Omar Infante should be in the lineup somewhere and and based on Prado’s power compared to Omar’s, Omar should be in the leadoff spot with Prado lower in the order to drive in runs.
Now, if Wren gets a couple of power bats for the middle of the order, Prado and all his doubles might be better suited for the leadoff spot, with Omar batting lower in the order.
But by comparison, here are Chipper’s lines for the last two seasons:
2009: 143 games started, 129 hits, 18 HR, 71 RBI, .264/.388/.430/.818
2010: 95 games started, 84 hits, 10 HR, 46 RBI, 265/.381/.426/.806
The last two years, Chipper has started 238 games, has 213 hits, with 28 HR and 117 RBI.
The last three years, Omar has started 226 games, has 287 hits with 13 HR and 100 RBI.
With all those hits, how many more RBI do you think Omar would have had if he was given the benefit of hitting in the 3-hole, like Chipper has?
No doubt, when healthy, Chipper provides more power, and likely scares the pitchers more than Omar does. But enough already. In about the same amount of starts, Omar literally has matched all of Chipper’s numbers other than HR total.
Over that time, Chipper has 161 walks. Omar has had 66. So you’re right about the walks. But hits drive in runs.
Total times on bas3 for Omar: 353 in 226 games.
Total times on base for Chipper: 374 in 238 games
So ini 12 more starts, Chipper’s been on base 21 more times, and hit 15 more HR.
I’m not a math whiz, but in the past 3 seasons, Omar has made 5.475 million dollars combined
The last two years (since Chipper’s had the same amount of starts in two years as Omar has in three), Chipper has made 26 million dollars combined.
Talk about bang for your buck, huh?
DAP
October 26th, 2010
11:33 am
shaun, the only reason you think infante’s BABIP is inflated is because its higher than his career average. its a large sample size and the last three years have shown a spike in those numbers.
what you need to realize when it comes to infante (and i actually think you do realize this) is that when he came to atlanta in 2008, he started a new trend. he became a different hitter. he has a different swing with way more contact and fewer strikeouts…and at the time he was only 26. infante’s career is a situation where i believe you can truly throw everything before 2008 out. he isnt the same player he was.
N8
October 26th, 2010
11:34 am
“My argument is based on him being extremely fortunate on balls in the field of play. So you need to start there in order to refute my argument.” Shaun
The guy’s hit over .300 as a starter (and overall), for 3 years running. You stated that the .309 average as a Brave might not be able to be sustained. I’m not disputing that he will challenge for the batting title every year like he did this past year.
I am however willing to be that he’ll hit around .300 and have an OBP around .340-.350 with an OPS around .750 to .800, when he plays.
Which unfortunately, is what we should also expect from Chipper, since it’s what he’s done the past two full seasons and is coming off of a major knee injury.
Fortunate, or unfortunate….. Omar can hit. And on this team, that puts him in select company.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
11:36 am
is the argument that infante wont sustain his 2010 performance, or that he wont sustain the numbers he has put up for the last over 1000 PA?
It’s a strange argument to make entirely on either side. Of course it is rare to impossible to sustain the same level of hitting year in year out. It changes for everyone. Of course it is ridiculous to spend your first few years on the blog arguing for sample size and park adjustments, only to seemingly turn away from them when convenient. But the other side of this argument is, Omar hasn’t been a full time player in his career save for one season when he was 22. The rest of the time he has been playing off the bench. Extrapolating part time playing numbers into full time playing numbers is not linear.
Kashi
October 26th, 2010
11:41 am
I did get Francour for left field, get new HITTING coach. Keep infante/conrad for chipper backup. Keep Diaz or Hinsky for Francour backup. Team is set. We didn’t give much. I have a feeling year 2011 is the year of Francour and Nate McClouth with new team and batting coach.
Gary O
October 26th, 2010
11:45 am
Thanks for the response DOB.
Guys,
Would Omar be a platoon option in LF with Nate? Between LF, 3B, and 2B, he would get lots of starts.
otisnixonsmokescrack!
October 26th, 2010
11:45 am
congrats to the sf giants for winning the nl pennant. eventually every dragon will be slayed. it happens. the games were sloppy, but the giants wanted it more. the phils weren’t expecting a fight and they got burned. they probably were even arrogant enough to look past the giants and on to the yankees in the ws. how did that one workout? i said the phils would win. but they didn’t.
so i have to man up and not be a sore loser. good luck in the world series sf. this could turn out to be a good one. i did say on here before the nlcs that sf had a 2003 marlins look to them. wish i was wrong on that one. i’m still gonna watch the world series even though the phillies lost. i been watching the series every year since kirk gibson in ‘88. good luck with your up coming off-season braves fans. see ya in 2011. hopefully… if i don’t od from the crack pipe first.
abwright
October 26th, 2010
11:47 am
ncscoots, October 25th, 2010, 4:50 pm … “hang ‘em and bang ‘em until the pitcher’s girlfriend starts thinking about a new arrangement.”
What a brutal comment. I love it!
I think the series between TX and SF is going to be close. SF’s pitching is better than TX’s, although Cliff Lee might be better than anyone SF can throw out there. That could be 2 wins for the Rangers.
SF will prolly keep TX to 3 runs or less per game. But, will SF be able to score any better?
Since I’m rooting for Texas, I’ll pick them in seven.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
11:48 am
Would Omar be a platoon option in LF with Nate?
I think Omar’s 2011 role depends entirely on what Wren is able to do this off-season. I like Omar. I wouldn’t mind seeing him play more. But I’d rather see the outfield solidified with good/great moves. If that leaves Omar on the bench then so be it. As “sad” as that would be it should imply that the team has even better hitters to put out there on a regular basis… and it makes the bench that much better.
N8
October 26th, 2010
11:50 am
“Extrapolating part time playing numbers into full time playing numbers is not linear.” T-Paul
That is true. What’s not being taken into consideration (by myself), when “pro-rating” his starting numbers over a full 162 game schedule, is prolonged slumps, injuries, facing tougher pitchers, etc…
In 2008 and 2009, many of his starts were hand picked starts by Bobby, whether against LHP or when giving guys days off, when Omar was likely very fresh off the bench. But 2010 showed, that he could sustain it to an extent over a long period of time when asked to do so. Granted, he was really hot early, and then cooled off, but the numbers just simply don’t lie.
In the past 3 years, he’s had more hits than games started (in those games started – my above numbers aren’t including his PH numbers or substitute numbers coming into games late), and Chipper has less hits than games started.
Some of that comes from teams pitching around Chipper. And some of Omars numbers come from having Chipper and Heyward BEHIND him in the order, when he was leading off.
Teams are much more likely to pitch to a singles and occasional doubles guy like Omar than risk walking him ahead of those guys.
So I get it.
But if that theory (having a guy like Omar at the top of the order ahead of those guys), works as well as it did, why go away from it?
I know people want Omar to be that uber-utility guy because he’s great at it, but it just simply might be easier to find a one good hitter for CF, put Omar in LF, and find a viable backup/4th outfielder (Nate McLouth), in the even that Omar is needed at 3B or 2B for an extended period of time. Leaving Wren to find another utility type guy for the bench. There has to be a veteran guy out there with Omar’s infield range, with experience at SS, 3B and 2B to cover that need, doesn’t there.
It really comes down to which one is easier to find for Wren? An everyday outfielder that will be inexpensive that can provide what Omar could do starting 125-140 games in LF, or if he can find a utility guy capable of doing what Omar does off the bench.
Where’s Wilson Betemit at these days? Or perhaps Willie Aybar?
N8
October 26th, 2010
11:57 am
“Would Omar be a platoon option in LF with Nate? Between LF, 3B, and 2B, he would get lots of starts.”
At first glance, I thought the same thing. But sadly enough, Omar is the better hitter of the two at this point. Since teams see more RHP than LHP, that platoon would be back-asswards. If Nate returns to 2008 form, then that is a GREAT idea. Giving Omar starts against LHP in LF and spot starts for Chipper and Prado keeping them fresh.
But I’m not sure Wren can afford to go into 2011 assuming that Nate will return to 2008 form to make that work. I think Wren has to replace Nate as though he will still stink, leaving Nate on the bench as an expensive 4th OF and if he pushes his way back into the starting lineup, that means the replacements in CF or LF that Wren finds are either hurt or not panning out.
But nate has decent value as a 4th outfielder, it’s just that his contract states that it’s a waste of money. But there is nothing Wren can do about that now. No sense compounding a bad contract by forcing the guy into the lineup. I’d rather have him be an overpaid bench guy, than killing rally after rally in the everyday lineup, because his contract dictates he’s too spendy to be on the bench.
But Nate can cover CF in a pinch and played pretty decent LF as a late inning defensive replacement. He still can’t throw very well from either spot. But he can go get the ball. He still runs well enough to be used as a pinch runner, and the Braves could do worse off the bench than him.
Sad thing is, if he and Rick Ankiel were free agents and Wren had to choose between one of them to be the 4th outfielder, I’d rather have Ankiel. Better glove and certainly a better arm. But neither are ideal for the starting CF job on this current roster.
dmack2027
October 26th, 2010
11:59 am
DOB,
In response to your blog about Rasmus and posts about Kemp, one thing we are perhaps underscoring is that both young outfielders have caused problems in their respective clubhouses. In both situations, the young player and manager spoke to the media about wanting to be traded. They were very public about their malcontent.
This can cause a team to sell low on a young cheap player. The Braves did this with Yunel Escobar, except that the rift was nowhere near as public of a spectacle. When Pujols is quoted as saying that they need to trade Rasmus because he is making waves while they are trying to catch the Reds, the situation in St. Louis may be worse than we know.
In the case of Kemp, the Dodgers are in such disarray that the Braves might be able to exploit all of the uncertainty surrounding the team’s financial situation and direction.
Couch Tater
October 26th, 2010
12:13 pm
McFann, TennPaul –
My mother has a 1950 White-Westinghouse refrigerator that she had get on a waiting list to purchase. In the 60’s, she gave it to a neighbor and they used it as a spare in their garage for a couple of years. The neighbor then moved and gave it back to my mom.
In the 70’s, it partied a lot and wanted nothing but beer. Lonely and dejected, it kicked the habit about the time I graduated from college. It’s still runs today, stocked with gatorade and water.
That defrosting though…
CraZyTRaDeMaN
October 26th, 2010
12:20 pm
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/10/26/union.expanding.playoffs.ap/index.html?eref=twitter_feed
This is an article about expanding the amount of teams in the postseason and possibly shortening of the regular season. I don’t think this is a good idea for a variety of reasons. 1st how many teams? If we are talking an NBA type format 8 teams from each league that would dilute the postseason and the importance of the division title and the pennant race. Then if you do a NFL type 6 teams from each league 2 teams from each league would sit out the 1st week. Im not sure if that’s really a bonus to the team with the best record. How about leaving the current format alone it works. If we had 8 teams from each league the post season teams would be:
NBA style playoffs
NL
1. Phillies
2. Giants
3. Reds
4. Braves
5. Padres
6. Cardinals
7. Rockies
8. Dodgers / Marlins tied
AL
1. Rays
2. Twins
3. Rangers
4. Yankees
5. Red Sox
6. White Sox
7. Blue Jays
8. Tigers / Athletic tied
NO Thank you. How about a NFL type postseason
NFL style playoffs
NL
Bye teams
1. Phillies
2. Giants
1st Round 5 game series
3. Reds vs. 6. Cards
4. Braves vs. 5. Pads
AL
Bye Teams
1. Rays
2. Twins
1st Round
3. Rangers vs. 6. White Sox
4. Yankees vs. 5. Red Sox
I’m not sure how comfortable I’d be with my team having to wait a week in between the end of the regular season and the start of the second round. Though it would give the teams who have clinched a top 2 spot the incentive to play the regulars all the way through game 162 due to the week off they would be getting. I say leave it alone the best 4 teams made the playoffs from each league if more teams want in then they need to find a way to play better!!!!
Murph
October 26th, 2010
12:21 pm
If the Braves can save some money in 2011 and find someone who can last a year without hurting the team on a daily basis (the anti Melky/Nate), then they might be in a good position come 2012 when the FA class looks to be a little bit better.
Bobby Abreu LAA *
Jose Bautista TOR
Carlos Beltran NYM
Milton Bradley SEA
Mike Cameron BOS
Ronny Cedeno PIT
Ryan Church PIT
Jack Cust OAK
David DeJesus KC
Matt Diaz ATL
J.D. Drew BOS
Jeff Francoeur TEX
Jonny Gomes CIN
Gabe Gross OAK
Carlos Guillen DET
Corey Hart MIL
Raul Ibanez PHI
Conor Jackson ARZ
Ryan Ludwick SD
Nate McLouth ATL *
Juan Pierre CWS
Juan Rivera LAA
Cody Ross SF
Grady Sizemore CLE *
Nick Swisher NYY *
Josh Willingham WAS
Murph
October 26th, 2010
12:25 pm
Crazy, I read that article too.
My issue with expanding the playoffs and shortening the regular season:
1. The NBA is a joke. Any professional sport league that includes over 50% of the teams in the playoffs has zero credibility. It’s such an obvious money grab that it makes me hate, yes hate, the NBA.
2. Baseball, more than any other sport, has a history that revolves around statistics. Shortening the regular season will send those vaunted statistics into a tail spin of asterisks and debate that the game doesn’t need. Imagine talking about this record or that record and someone says “yeah, well, his ERA record was in the 140 game season, not the 162 game season.”
3. Did I mention that anything which brings the MLB closer to the NBA is a horrible, bad, awful, dumb, horrible idea?
David O'Brien
October 26th, 2010
12:33 pm
Hillbillybrave: Medlen’s hip was fine in MRI, according to Braves.
DAP
October 26th, 2010
12:33 pm
crazytrade man, i dont like the idea of expanding the playoffs because the regular season vets the teams enough. its a long season and only the best make it to the end with a shot. the braves were in playoff games the last two weeks of the regular season…thats how it felt anyway. you know what i mean? i really think its a bad idea, for one because it takes away the uniqueness of the baseball season.
i think the most i would be ok with is making the first round 7 games.
David O'Brien
October 26th, 2010
12:35 pm
dmack: Teams only wish that were the case with Rasmus. If Cards make him available, teams will line up. Bidding war (trade-style) will ensue. They do NOT have to trade him, at all. In fact, those I know in St. Louis said they are more inclined to keep him unless blown away by an offer.
Kemp, I can’t say the same thing about. I don’t know his situation, what the Dodgers might accept.
Gary O
October 26th, 2010
12:36 pm
Murph,
The problem is, Wren has been trying stop gaps for the last 2 years. Ilbanez, Dunn and Bobby Abreu were available 2 years ago, but we were stuck with Loaf in LF. And then we had Melky and Diaz.
And with the guys on your list, there is no way to know who will struggle, who will sign extensions, who will get hurt etc. I think our best move is to try and fix it now.
“But nate has decent value as a 4th outfielder, it’s just that his contract states that it’s a waste of money.” N8 .
Even if Nate’s salary was $2 mil, I dont think he has decent value as a 4th OF. imo, he doesnt excel at anything. At least Ankiel has a great arm, or Diaz hits lefties well (or used to), what would Nate bring to the table?
njbraves
October 26th, 2010
12:38 pm
The fact that anyone would want Francouer back is mind boggling to me. The guy is flat out awful and isn’t an option for this team. People don’t want to trade any prospects and don’t want to “overspend” on guys like Crawford or Werth, but want to bring back Frenchy and Andruw?? OK, great thinking folks.
59bulldawg
October 26th, 2010
12:41 pm
Colby Rasmus is good but he’s not worth us having to part ways with either Prado, Kimbrell, or Vizcaino. All you have to do is look at the Rangers to see the mistake we made by giving up too much to acquire Texiera. I know we have to give value to get value in most cases but let’s not get stupid. As for the World Series, how refreshing is it to see the Giants and Rangers instead of the same old same old aka the Yankees. The only time I enjoy seeing the same team in the playoffs and/or Series is when the Bravos are in it. I’m pulling for the Rangers but it should be a fun series. That Posey kid for the Giants is going to be McCann’s main competition for the All-Star game for the next several years.
CraZyTRaDeMaN
October 26th, 2010
12:41 pm
Murph
To me the pennant race would be totally ruined by adding teams. I like the Hawks and Falcons and I keep up with both the NBA and NFL and honestly I couldn’t tell you what teams won each division last year. They’re just too many teams making it to the postseason to pay the division championships any attention. It’s a BAD idea!!!
TnBrian
October 26th, 2010
12:44 pm
I’d rather have the other Upton, Justin. Bad attitude and all, he can hit. BJ Upton could be a risk worth taking though, especially if the price is right. I’d still say get themselves another OF. Swisher would be good to stick in LF. Use McLouth as an emergency starter– it’d have to be a serious emergency though.
Fleming
October 26th, 2010
12:45 pm
Once again we see the Blog Master (DOB) at work. Off season, blog hits slowing, let’s mention Francoeur and bump the blog hits up again. Let the Frenchy Lovers/Haters go at each other for awhile. Great work DOB. What a master.
richbrave
October 26th, 2010
12:45 pm
pin-head
richbrave
October 26th, 2010
12:47 pm
Relax fellas, WREN’s not giving away the farm to get one more bat. Not his style. No more LOWE’s FA contracts either IMHO of course.
N8
October 26th, 2010
12:48 pm
njbraves, I look at it this way with Jeff and Andruw as possible options in LF next year….
If you have a moped (Jeff or Andruw), there comes a time when you realize it’s not the safest, most efficiant way to get from point A to point B. Everybody would love a fancy new car to drive around. But after awhile, when you’ve traded the moped for a scooter (Ryan Church), that has since moved on, and tried replacing the scooter with a pair of roller skates, a skateboard and an old pair of sneakers, once you realize that you can’t afford the fancy new car……
You realize it wouldn’t be that bad to have the moped back after all compared to what you’ve had since getting rid of it.
Still think Wren can do better. But 2010 shows that he could do a lot worse as well. Way more about the surrounding players improving and getting a legit CF to bat cleanup.
If Andruw (or somebody like him) is on this team batting 7th or 8th playing LF next year? That means the rest of the lineup is likely pretty good and I’m cool with that.
If Jeff Francoeur is batting cleanup and playing LF this year? Wren might wanna run and hide…. quickly.
TnBrian
October 26th, 2010
12:51 pm
N8, your bold type caught my eye. I read every word of your post and it really sunk in nicely– thanks to the bold type.
Glen W
October 26th, 2010
12:53 pm
Still can’t believe that some of you think Kemp would be better than Rasmus. Dude batting average dropped aalmost 50 points and he struck out 40 more times at age 25 than the previous year. Not the most encouraging trend.
And you guys are comparing Rasmus to McClouth? Based upon what?
Rasmus played at age 23 last year, hit OPS was higher by 100 points. He’s a legit defensive CF… debatable on Kemp.
Rasmus offers two more years of control.
How is this even a discussion?
njbraves
October 26th, 2010
12:54 pm
If the Braves end up with Frenchy or Andruw, Wren is a failure. I’m sorry, but there is no good reason to bring back either guy. Trades are the way to go. I’d love to get Werth or Crawford, but the budget doesn’t allow the Braves to be players in top tier FA’s anymore. Atlanta is so loaded with young pitching there is no reason to not use it to their advantage.
N8
October 26th, 2010
12:55 pm
“Even if Nate’s salary was $2 mil, I dont think he has decent value as a 4th OF. imo, he doesnt excel at anything. At least Ankiel has a great arm, or Diaz hits lefties well (or used to), what would Nate bring to the table?”
I think you’re missing the point of a what a 4th outfielder is around for.
Spot start to give guys days off. Preferably sombebody who can play CF and spot start in the corners if needed. Nate has won a GG in CF. Maybe he didn’t deserve it. Maybe he did. Either way, it’s on his resume. Somebody somewher thought he could go catch the ball at one point.
He can still run. A 4th outfielder is often asked to pinch run. Nate can do that.
He has a little pop in his bat. Not real consistent with it. But it’s there.
On most teams, bench guys are bench guys for a reason. If Nate had the tools you spoke of, he wouldn’t be on the bench. He’d be starting. It’s the difference between the Yankees and everybody else.
Same goes for Omar Infante. On the Yankees or Red Sox, dude might get 150 AB, and be the 24th guy on the bench. On the Braves, he’s probably our 3rd or 4th best (most consistent) hitter.
It’s all relative man. By “value” I wasn’t referring to anything having to do with the dollars. Obviously, he’s not worth close to what he’s making (talking about Nate).
But so what? Heyward is making 400K next year. So is Hanson, Venters, Kimbrel and Freeman.
Some contracts are steals. Some are anchors. Nate’s 6.5 million dollar contract is NOT the reason this team won’t win, if they don’t win next year.
Not when you’ve got Chipper making 14 million and Kawakami making 6 million, I’d add Lowe to that group. But dude earned his money in September and October as far as I’m concerned. At least for next year. Not so sure about the 15 million owed to him in 2012.
unbelievable
October 26th, 2010
12:58 pm
“All you have to do is look at the Rangers to see the mistake we made by giving up too much to acquire Texiera. – 59bulldawg”
Feliz is the only thing that the Braves are missing from the Tex deal
Piedmont Blues
October 26th, 2010
1:02 pm
Denizens, I’m agnostic about Infante’s value as a regular. He didn’t exactly provide Gold Glove defense anywhere he played. So maybe he is a guy you move around the diamond while giving him regular playing time. So make him part of a LF platoon and give him 20-25 starts at 3B, SS, 2B.
As a hitter, I’m reminded of something TP said near the end of the season. Infante looks for a pitch to hit in his zone and swings away. It’s not much more complicated than that. I might prefer someone who tries to work the count and make the pitcher sweat. But this approach has worked for him since he’s been in Atlanta, so I’m not about to question it.
N8
October 26th, 2010
1:04 pm
TnBrian. Cool. It was also supposed to be in ALL CAPS, but alas, I forgot to do it that way. Glad you liked it.
“If the Braves end up with Frenchy or Andruw, Wren is a failure.” njbraves
Shouldn’t the season pan out first?
If you had stated that “If the Braves end up with Frenchy or Andruw, and FAIL to make the post-season because the lineup is weak again, then Wren is a failure.”
Last winter, Wren was a failure because he only signed Troy Glaus to play 1B. Last winter, Wren was a failure because all he got for Soriano was Chavez. Last winter, Wren was a failure because he didn’t find anybody to play LF everyday. Last winter, Wren was a failure because he traded Vazquez for Melky (according to those with short-sighted thoughts). At the deadline, Wren was a failure for only trading for Ankiel and Farnsworth. Wren was a failure for trading for Derrek Lee past his prime, etc…
See where this is going?
The team won 91 frickin’ games last year. Two years removed from winning only 72 games. They are in the same division with two teams with MUCH higher budgets than the Braves.
Heyward has a season under his belt. Freeman can’t possibly be any worse than Glaus was other than his May outburst of production. Kimbrel and Venters are going to form a 1-2 punch that few can match in their bullpen. Gonzo, while not Arod, will be around all year. TP is not the hitting coach anymore.
Judging Wren as a failure by something he does in November or December, without letting it play out is as silly as calling “ballgame” when the other team scores a single run in the top of the first inning.
brian
October 26th, 2010
1:05 pm
good post N8
O.J.
October 26th, 2010
1:05 pm
unbelievable, dont forget Elvis Andrus
Billy walsh
October 26th, 2010
1:09 pm
Unbelievable
you don’t think the braves are missing Elvis andrus? Did u see his defense against the yankees? You wouldn’t want him at the top of the braves order?
N8
October 26th, 2010
1:10 pm
“Feliz is the only thing that the Braves are missing from the Tex deal”
Again. Short-sighted at best. Andrus could have netted a greater return all by himself than the one year of Tex and one year of Kotchman/LaRoche than we got out of him.
Feliz too. Even Salty.
Worst case scenario, it would have allowed Wren to trade Escobar for something else, and make him available to more teams, not just one looking to move a veteran SS. But the Blue Jays knew we didn’t have any other option.
Perhaps Escobar could have been sent down, Andrus called up, and then this winter, let the teams lineup for Escobar (or Fredi could have maybe given Escobar another shot at it).
Wren sold about as low as you could sell on somebody with Escobar. Because he was desperate to get rid of him and needed to get a SS in return. Worst case scenario is what that trade scneario was. That being said, Gonzo wasn’t a horrible return on it.
But too many people act like the ONLY possible value of a young player is playing on that team.
Sure, we couldn’t have used Wainwright for a couple more years after the JD Drew trade. But JS could have traded for somebody that was going to stick around longer. Same with the Tex trade. What makes the Tex trade worse is that the team didn’t need offense. So JS sold the farm on an unecessary piece that never really had a shot of being around more than a year and a half.
unbelievable
October 26th, 2010
1:10 pm
OJ – Andrus is nothing special. .265/.342/.301/.643 is awful and his defense fell off a cliff this year. He’s young, but he’s also not that good
N8
October 26th, 2010
1:14 pm
“He’s young, but he’s also not that good”
Yet there he’ll be… batting leadoff in the world series. With our good buddy Jeff Francoeur also on his roster.
Amazing the Rangers got as far as they got with such a horrible shortstop, huh? Gotta be some sort of Bermuda Triangle/LOST kind of voodoo magic.
LPad
October 26th, 2010
1:14 pm
Personally, I think Wren in his search for outfielders should consider Omar the bar. Any acquistions have to be better hitters than Omar. In fact, as of right now I consider Omar to be our starting LF with Prado at 2B and Chipper at 3B.
TennesseePaul
October 26th, 2010
1:17 pm
Feliz is the only thing that the Braves are missing from the Tex deal
With Venters and Kimbrel, Feliz isn’t entirely “missing.”
raleighbravefan
October 26th, 2010
1:18 pm
N8 – I don’t go back to the moped. I look for a good used car (not roller skates) or take a chance on a brand new economy car, that is not totally tested out, but has a good chance of getting me where I want to go. I also continue to look for a trade-in or bargain to upgrade my transportation. But I don’t settle for an option I already know I am not satisfied with.
Lew
October 26th, 2010
1:22 pm
unbelievable – Andrus numbers are awful? Aren’t they about what everyone claims would be great for Nate or, for that matter, any other outfield suggestion so far?
Jeff R
October 26th, 2010
1:23 pm
N8… your comments are on the mark. And…
All things considered, Alex Gonzalez was an okay return for Escobar, given the circumstances, but look at the left side of the Braves infield now.
Chipper – 39 in April and fragile, skills in decline. 34-year old Gonzo… maybe a bit better than adequate at this point in his career.
The left side of the Braves infield is potentially a big problem.
unbelievable
October 26th, 2010
1:23 pm
N8 if you really think that Andrus/Francoeur carried that team to the playoffs then good for you. Id be willing to bet that Hamilton, Cruz, Young, Vlad, Wilson, Lee, Hunter, and Lewis played a far far bigger role.
Its basically like saying that Melky is what got the Yanks to the World Series last year
unbelievable
October 26th, 2010
1:27 pm
Lew – yes a .640OPS is terrible at any position.
beekay
October 26th, 2010
1:34 pm
I think 8-10 MLB teams would take KK if we pay 3 mill. Even with his terrible season he was still better than at least a dozen starters. For 3 mill and only one year he would be a bargain
Churchy
October 26th, 2010
1:38 pm
Andrus is very good. Any team would love to have him fielding and batting. You can’t always look at his season batting stats. They don’t tell the story. Prado is a good example. Prado is solid. He is so much better than a statistic that can be attached to him.
Glen W
October 26th, 2010
1:38 pm
So Frenchy and Elvis are good because they play on a team going to the World Series? So, what happened to Melky this year?
dmack2027
October 26th, 2010
1:38 pm
I wonder if things would have been different with Yunel under Fredi Gonzalez, if he could have survived to this year.
LPad
October 26th, 2010
1:39 pm
Couple of things to remember about Feliz is that he probably would be a starter for the Braves and that if Braves still had Feliz they probably wouldn’t have drafted Minor last year. One of the main reasons he was drafted was to provide cheap pitching depth until the younger guys are ready.
csg
October 26th, 2010
1:41 pm
unbelievable makes a very good point though. Andrus slugged .301 this year, thats Tony Pena Jr bad. We all talk about how much we hate Agon here, but compare him to Andrus this season.
Andrus – .265/.342/.301/.643
WAR 1.5
UZR 0.1
AGON – .250/.294/.447/.741
WAR 3.4
UZR 5.1
I really dont see how Andrus wouldve made the Braves any better this year. He wouldnt have pushed this team any further. About the only good defensive position that the Braves had all year was at SS. Both Yunel and AGON had far better defensive numbers too
Mr. Turnip-Green Jeans
October 26th, 2010
1:41 pm
If Francoeur is resigned, insanity has prevailed.
Chuck M.
October 26th, 2010
1:41 pm
DOB, I stand corrected on JJ’s free agency!
richbrave
October 26th, 2010
1:42 pm
pinwheel
N8
October 26th, 2010
1:43 pm
“With Venters and Kimbrel, Feliz isn’t entirely “missing.””
Again. Short-sighted, and only assuming that Feliz could help this team by playing for them.
If the Braves had Feliz, then they could trade him with Kimbrel or Venters taking over, or trade Kimbrel or Venters as the centerpiece for a guy like Rasmus.
59bulldawg
October 26th, 2010
1:44 pm
Unbelieveable . . . my point is simply that Andrus and Feliz were given up for about what . . . one season of Texiera . . . and now he’s gone. We didn’t have the dough to keep him and basically in the end, gave up a lot for a one year rental. In other words basically nothing. That’s a deal I think a lot of Braves fans would love to get back. But hindsight is always 20/20.
Shaun
October 26th, 2010
1:44 pm
TennesseePaul and N8, how does sample size and park adjustment apply to Infante being fortunate on balls in play in at least 2 of 3 seasons? This is not an argument about sample size. It’s an argument about how much control a player has over his results.
DAP, it’s possible that Infante has become a different hitter and his batting average on ball in play over the last 2-3 seasons actually is an indication of his new skills as a hitter. But I don’t know that that is obviously the case. His results on balls in play is so out of line, almost extremely out of line, from his career results that it’s probably not all attributable to his improvement as a hitter.
However, I do agree that he has improved as a hitter and his improvement along with his peak ages have coincided with his arrival to Atlanta. This is why, as I stated, I think Infante is probably not going to perform for the next 1-2 years as bad as his career numbers indicate but not as good as only his Braves numbers would indicate. I think something around his 2008 numbers are probably a realistic expectation for 2010-2011.
unbelievable
October 26th, 2010
1:45 pm
“Andrus is very good. Any team would love to have him fielding and batting. You can’t always look at his season batting stats. They don’t tell the story. Prado is a good example. Prado is solid. He is so much better than a statistic that can be attached to him.” – Churchy
a couple of things – Andrus may have the ability to become very good, right now he’s is not. Prado is solid because he’s a team leader and one of the best and most consistent hitters on our team. He’s going to give you a .310/.360/.460 line at 2B, of course he’s good. How are we suppose to compare players if we cant use their statistics?
richbrave
October 26th, 2010
1:45 pm
pin-cushion
Efrim
October 26th, 2010
1:45 pm
Francoeur won’t be resigned.
N8
October 26th, 2010
1:47 pm
“So Frenchy and Elvis are good because they play on a team going to the World Series? So, what happened to Melky this year?”
He came from the reigning WS champs and helped a team that hadn’t got to the playoffs in 5 years finally get there again.
Don’t flip the point around. I’m not saying that Jeff and Andrus are good because they’re going to the world series. I’m saying that a team going to the world series doesn’t have to have all-stars at every positioon to get there.
Oh… for the record, Andrus was an all-star this year.