DAP- OK, let’s look at Nate’s numbers, though I’m not so sure why you think they will prove anything more than what we already know – That Nate was decent in Pittsburgh and not since coming to Atlanta. Anyway……..
162 Game Averages for His Career- Keep in mind this includes the good and the bad
So what do you have? How about a basically average MLB hitter? That’s what he is, but hasn’t really ben since coming over to the Braves. Can he revert to a norm or his career average? Sure hope so, but he hasn’t done it yet. If he does, it would be like getting a new player.
No wonder that Braves’ fans have their doubts, but it is seeming relatively certain that even should he revert to career averages, he is NOT the player he was in 08 – for whatever reason.
Don (BB or whatever) – You MAROON! What makes you think nothing was said to Yunel to try to straighten him out. Every effort was made by Bobby, staff, and other players. What bobby won’t do is embarass a player in public, unless he is pushed beyond the limit. We shall see what a career Mr. Escobar has away from Bobby. You are AND IDIOT!
LewApparently the Muppets think so too. I never argue with Muppets.
Definitely. She does these Proactive skin care commercials…oh my lord. You thought the Progressive woman was annoying…? Well…And apparently she an explicit singer, too…
he leads the team in HR and RBI and that’s who you want your cleanup hitter to be.
I agree, but 77 RBI is kind of a pitiful number for the team lead…not being mean or anything. I mean, obviously he could have had more than that with 440 guys on base ahead of him all year…IDK, you know how I stand on this issue…
When Glaus wasuahitting like a clean up hitter, it was one thing with Mac lower in the order
Yeah, that woulda been nice…actually Glaus did pretty well on the couple days that he did bat cleanup. But then he kinda stopped hitting/playing, so that didn’t really matter anymore.
but until they get a better option
Exactly! And that’s what I want Wren to get—a better option!
McFann-Yeah, we’d rather see Mac with 90-100 RBI, but you go with your best and that’s what Mac’s performance was for the Braves. Yeah, it would be nice to have a bona fide clean up hitter but we didn’t (and don’t – yet). Mac’s still the man until they do.
raleigh, you are right – we WILL SEE what kind of shortstop Escobar is in the next several years. We will ALSO SEE what kind of shortstop the Braves have for the next few seasons (unless they pay big bucks for a star free agent or give up huge talent in a trade). We already know what kind of shortstop we had for the last part of last season.
Even if Escobar does not prove to be a Star, he does not have to be great to be significantly better than what the Braves may have.
Sugar coat it all you want, but this was a significant failure by Bobby Cox – It was not his style to confront players and make demands of players.
lew though I’m not so sure why you think they will prove anything more than what we already know
not sure why you think i think that. im just telling jed to look at the numbers, and not cite avg and rbi and think he knows all about a player. those numbers alone dont tell you too much, especially weather a player had a good year.
The major league average line for a centerfielder in 2010 was .261/.326/.405 (.731 OPS). That’s the number we should compare McLouth or any other potential centerfielder to.
Big hitting centerfielders don’t grow on trees. It’s a defense-first position that requires speed and athleticism. Only a handful of players combine that with big slugging skills.
People talk like Nate’s only had one good year. Not true. His career OPS is .775 (and that includes his ‘lost’ 2010 season). If he could achieve anything close to that, he’s more than adequate. No idea if he can. He was lost from day one of spring training in 2010.
btw, if we do go shopping for CF, I wouldn’t let the fact that Rasmus is left-handed get in the way. In 2010, his OPS against LHP was .810 (131 PA’s). Not as good as against RHP, but still way above league-average.
VaBrave – “Pitching is great, there isn’t many question marks”.
You could be right that the pitching could be great.
But there are significant question marks.
The only TWO Starters who would not seem to have at least some question mark are Hudson and Hanson.
That leaves 3 possible problem Starter spots.
JJ – True his knee injury may be a minor thing BUT JJ has not been dependable/effective like he was in his first year – since his SHOULDER injury — Big question as to whether he will come back and be effective next season.
Medlin – With that injury, don’t count on him at all for next season – and he may or may not ever come back and be effective after that injury – some do, some don’t.
Lowe – Granted he was great during the last part of the season – but he is old and will be a year older — Will we have the Lowe of September or the Lowe of much of the other part of the season or worse?
The young rookie pitchers that your mention are promising but unproven.
The Starting Pitching could be great or the Braves could have significant problems.
Mike – IF being the operative word. Sine coming to Atlanta, he hasn’t come close to average numbers, Maybe he will get it together and I really think even his most staunch detractors hope for this – I know that I do. But…….he hasn’t yet and from what we’ve seen, there’s no wonder many are skeptical. Don’t tell me about what he did several years ago. Since being a Brave he has not been a good, or even an average, player – offensively OR defensively.
lew Well, I cited all his numbers and it didn’t look much better than what jed cited
thanks for that, though it still isnt the point.
bu while jed cited only avg and rbi and said nate had only one good season, i believe looking at his numbers as a whole you can say he had three good seasons, from 07-09 starting when he began playing full time up until this year. anyways, i sure hope he figures something out.
DAP-Apparently, that point of view is prevalent in this country, not only as it relates to Nate, but the Govt. too.
We have this thing where we accept a performance and if it’s sub par, anything that we can find to replace it – no matter how bad that choice may be on it’;s own, it has tpo be a better option.
With Nate, we might not have signed someone who practiced witchcraft (though a shrine to Jobu might help at this point), but I absolutely love how now we keep hearing that “Nate’s not bad, he’s average”.
Condemnation by faint prise is what it looks like to me. Yeah, an average season WOULD be an improvement from Nate, but let’s call a spade a spade. He is what he is and that’s average at best. Lowered expectations, notwithstanding.
Since being a Brave he has not been a good, or even an average, player – offensively OR defensively.
Lew, in 2009 he hit .257/.354/.419 (.773) with 11 HR as a Brave in right at 400 PA’s. That’s pretty decent for CF, and not a big dropoff from his career numbers, considering ATL is a bit less of a hitter’s park than PNC. And I don’t remember all the defensive lapses that we saw in 2010 being an issue in ‘09.
Anyway, I’m not trying to whitewash what happened this year. It was unacceptable. But I have hope, because I don’t think a lot of guys in their prime completely forget how to play the game. Something – mechanics, maybe, and then lost confidence? – got the best of him.
It’s up to Wren and Co. to figure out if he’s done, or can be rehabbed.
lew, haha, baseball is a little less serious than govt leaders, though i see your point. when it comes to our leaders, sadly we often have to choose the lesser of two idiots.
Mike – I have hope, too. However, it’s likely because with what he’s owed and his untradeability, he’ll be here regardless of whether or not hope exists.
lew Melky hits .255 and is run out of town on a rail. Nate hits .190 and we hope for the ,.255.
i know you know there is much more to a hitter than batting average, which is why nate’s potential is more highly regarded, and melky is now on the scrap heap. of course, a guaranteed contract might have a little to do with it too, you think?
I would hope that there’s logic there, but I”m tired of looking for it.
It’s there. You’ve just decided not to see it. Melky is a below average career hitter who can only play effectively at a position that values offense. Nate is an above-average career hitter who plays a premium defensive position.
“there is much more to a hitter than batting average, which is why nate’s potential is more highly regarded”
Exactly what intangible qualities does Nate bring to the Braves that they couldn’t get from someone else? I’m not in the clubhouse, so I don’t know what kind of leader he is, but he doesn’t seem to be much of a voice for the team. He’s not doing the little things like moving guys over or putting himself on the line, crashing into a wall to make a catch.
I can’t predict what will happen next year any better than anyone else, but I have to think Matt Young would hit higher than .190 and do more in the field/on the bases than Nate.
Nate McLouth, Matt Young, Melky Cabrera, Colby Rasmus, etc, etc, etc.
I understand that we want to figure it all out……..and today. (hey, I’m the same way) But until smilin’ Frank gets started, we are all kinda just whizzing in the wind.
murph Exactly what intangible qualities does Nate bring to the Braves that they couldn’t get from someone else?
they arent intangibles, and its not compared to everyone else. that statement was made in comparison to melky cabrera. though nate had a horrible year in 2010, in his career, he blows melky out of the water when it comes to OBP and slugging. thats what i was referring to.
if matt young can get on base at a .380 rate in the majors, get his tail up here. id love to see him get a shot in spring training, but at the same time, i hope wren solidifies the outfield so much this offseason that there isnt space for young.
Good morning all
Last night I see people on blog were talking about bringing back A Jones. I say no, he aged before his time because he did not stay in playing shape. I think he is mostly done. Jeff Francoeur on the other hand has lifetime batting aveof .268 and is not yet 30 yrs old. Our LFs hit .240 for season. Enough said.
I agree 110% DAP. I’m holding out a lot of hope that McLouth/Young are in discussions for the 4th outfield slot, not for a starting role. It’s all up to Frank.
Don ( the Maroon) – You are disreguarding the NEGATIVE impact Yunel had in the clubhouse – a DUMB mistake. Everyone in the clubhouse gave his replacement a standing O, and NO ONE expressed ANY regret with the trade.
I wondered who you would blame with Bobby gone. Now I know. You will still blame Bobby for FUTURE failure of the team. And you are still a MAROON!
Well, at least I still have my signed Francoeur and Andruw drawings hanging in The Museum, since that’s who it seems many would prefer to have back in Atlanta. But hey, I have Blaine Boyer and Marcus Giles’ drawings, too
I have floated a theory on Escobar’s 2010 season a few times, and was wondering what you guys thought. Maybe DOB can chime in if he thinks there is any merit in this.
But after Yunel’s killer first day (2-5 w/ 5 RBI’s and a double) when it seemed that everybody’s attention was on the new kid, that from that point on he tanked. Did he get upset that he wasn’t being appreciated?
For the time he was in Atlanta, he never hit with any power, 12 doubles were all his extra base hits. And he really didn’t hit many singles until that stretch in June.
Ever game I was able to catch (not too many, I admit) he seemed to be swinging defensively. I was at the Ted on July 2nd, and though he got 1 hit that Friday evening, it didn’t look to me like he was swinging aggressively at all.
It’s a crime shame though. Think what might have been with Yunel’s glove work and play if he’d been able to put together the type of numbers he exhibited in his first 3 years. Would it have been enough to have kept us out of that 9 game losing streak? If he could have hit well in the leadoff or 6th slot??
As one Blogger said last nite he was tired of seeing Andrew smile after strikeing out. I am sure Andrew was not happy, it was just the way Andrew was, but I used to hate seeing it too. Very annoying.
DS1-To be totally accurate, it’s not just Francoeur and Andruw. Coco Crsp has been frequently mentioned – again this year, it’s getting to be an annual event. Too bad Freel retired. Wonder if Baldelli is available?
No really sure—might be some kind of circulatory thing, but it’s not life-threatening…I’ve had it for over two years. It just feels sore all the time, starting up at the shoulder. Whatever it is, the Ace bandage helps a ton. But it’s really annoying. Soon as we get some insurance thing figgered out, we’ll see what cann be done about it…but for now the Ace thingy works pretty well.
You guys need to get off the Nate thing. No one wants him so we can’t move him. The best we can hope for is he returns to his average numbers. Besides if he plays good defense and can hit his 250 or 260 ec. He is adequate. The real need is a power bat in left, the end.
Many players with unlimited ability have failed to become great players for a variety of reasons injury, personal and yes even due to coaching. Yunels reason was because he is arrogant, selfish and a s__ head. If he turns into a star it’s because YUNEL not a coach finally realized this and corrected it.
Don
Get over it Bobby is gone. Let’s move on and have conversations about things that are relevant now. Like the Mark Teixeira trade or the JD Drew trade or the Dale Murphy trade.
We also could use Hinski back, as our lefthanded pinch hitter and maybe Jorge Cantu to be our right handed pinch hitter and 1st & 3rd base backup. It would be nice to get Kemp or Rasmus, even Jacoby Ellsbury might work.
Wouldn’t be too sure about that CrazyTradeMan. Gaston said when they acquired Yunel that he had the worst hitting mechanics he seen in quite a while. So I imagine if/when he returns to his career norms or higher it will be because he corrected his mechnanical flaws. That seems like something he will work on with a coach.
DOB – Compared to the numbers Gonzo put up in the second half .240/.291/.386/.678 Yunel’s numbers were better. Just like they’ll be better when both return to their career norms next year.
CraZyTraDeMaNLet’s move on and have conversations about things that are relevant now. Like the Mark Teixeira trade or the JD Drew trade or the Dale Murphy trade.
If the Braves thought Yunel was worth keeping, the Braves would’ve kept him. Yunel was is a sh–it head period. Thats what got him traded. Well that and he wasn’t hitting. I could really care less what he does in the future it wasn’t going to happen here. If anything the trade may have been a wake-up call for him.
Francoeur always seems to start out hot with a new team. Did it with the Mets, did it with the Rangers.
The fact is, his full-season OPS+ for 2008 was 72 (horrible!), for 2009 was 93, and for 2010 was 85. He is a far-below average hitter for the last three years.
The last 2 years, he’s hit LHP pretty well, though. He’d be useful to someone in a platoon role if he’d accept it without whining. Hope it’s not for us, though. Been there, done that.
Everyone keeps coming up with recycles, has-beens, and so-sos for outfield fix, then the same people crucify Wren for bringing in has beens and so-sos.
We are probably stuck with McLouth, so let’s hope he is at least almost adequete in CF next year. We do need a young hitter in LF. Finding one we can afford is the trick. We shall see what FW comes up with.
People, PLEASE get over Yunel, and move on. Don, just move on, period.
Mike-Absoltely. And even playing in Texas, where the ball flies, Jeff still has only hit 23 HR and knocked in 95 since leaving Atlanta – in 214 games. That works out to a HR every 32 PA.
LTBF was right, a long ball once in a while. Wat he didn’t say was that there would be a lot of swings and misses in the interim.
I guess that The Ted could use the air conditioning.
Freddie Freeman’s left thumb still swollen and painful a week after spraining it in Ariz. Fall League, so he’ll be examined by team specialist today in Atlanta. It’s not uncommon at all for such an injury to linger a couple of weeks even with rest.
Dude, that’s the problem. Too many IFs and not enough For Sures.
Pretty sure that will still be the case come opening day. Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes.
For marginal improvements on the odds, still no luck. Wren already stated he will need to be “creative” to fill the outfield spots. “Creative” has already resulted in Ankiel, Glaus, Melky, McLouth…
The one perpetuated falsehood on this blog today is that McLouth’s 2009 for Atlanta was below average, barely average, terrible, worthless, awful, etc. Such statements are patently false.
Lpad – Frenchy had bad mechanics, and wouldn’t listen to coaches, or anybody else. When they tried to get Andruw to hit the other way, he said he was a “pull hitter” and continued to slump. Some people are just stubborn. Do you think Yunel was listening to the coaches? I don’t know, but I don’t think so.
I had forgotten about McNate’s vision issues. That may have played a role in his early season struggles. Maybe he never really got things corrected or maybe he never adjusted to the contacts. If McNate returns to career averages, he’ll be fine in CF. If he’s lost it for good, then 2011 Braves are going to have a struggle.
However, the Braves problems extended far outside just McNate. LF and CF were black holes all year. SS went south at the end of the season. 1B was dreadful outside of May (Glaus) and late September (Lee).
Even if Braves figure out something in LF, I have a feeling that they will be inconsistent offensively in 2011. But, they’ll still probably win 90+ games with their pitching.
Soph
I called Dish and told them to disconnect my service. They told me I would have to pay the $200 or whatever amount disconnection charge. So I told them that I wasn’t going to pay the charge or any future bill they send me. The Dish rep said they would disconnect my service if I didn’t pay my bill. So I said “I thought you said it was $200 bucks to have it disconnected?”. He said If I don’t pay it would be off. I told him that I wasn’t going to pay I didn’t care what agency they report to I wasn’t going to pay period until I had FX back. He gave me next month free! I told the guy that at the end of next month if FX still wasn’t available I was going to call back about the same thing. I’m not paying them until I get the full advertised plan I signed up for.
I thought Francouer was under contract with Texas for the next couple of arb years. Ya’ll don’t seriously think that the Rangers will non-tender Frenchy after the WS? (There was sarcasm dripping off that statement if you missed it.)
Interesting article about the Yankees losing. (Which makes most of us happy.) But the writer talks about the post season and how really successful teams are at the fate of the short series. Some of this can be used to view the 14 year run by the Braves. Well worth the time to read. http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2010/10/25/reacting-rationally-to-losing/
Crazy – Are you under contract? We are going to switch anyway to Direct just cause the deals are way better and after the freebies run dry, we will still be paying the same thing only with more channels…
If not mistaken, Baylor got dumped as he Rockies hitting coach. He did some good things with the Braves accordingy to some Chipper quotes. He might not be a long term type guy with his asperations to be a manager again. That might be ok cause I really believe Chipper will be in the dugout as a hitting coach in the forseable future. Still can’t understand why TP is still around unless Fredi just wants his own guy as the hitting instructor. Even if Nate improves under someone new, his days as a Braves probably won’t extend past this next season. And we thought Kelly Johnson was streaky.
You have to pay Dish Network so that you can stop paying them? That can’t possible be legal!
I’m glad to be hearing about all these Dish Network horror stories. I’m not a big fan of Directv due to all their recent changes, but dayum! No way I would hook up with Dish.
Ease™
I would already have a DirecTV dish on the house if it wasn’t for the contract. I’m switching as soon as I get out of this contract. I’ve been wanting MLB network for a while now Dish refuses to offer it.
i’m gonna have to stop reading here if the ‘bring back frenchy!’ cries don’t subside soon. i can’t take it any more. frenchy IS here…his name is nate mclouth. we don’t need 2.
I see we’ve moved on from Braun, Kemp and Rasmus…. only to get pulled back into Andruw, Escobar and Frenchy. Yikes. DOB, please come in and save us with a nugget of new information!
If I can make a music recommendation: this weekend some friends and I went up to Woodstock, NY and caught the Midnight Ramble at Levon Helm’s barn. If you’re ever up in upstate NY for a weekend and can make it over to Levon’s, it’s completely worth the price of admission and whatever other expenses you might have to bear (rental car, hotel, etc). It’s a concert for about 225 people in Levon’s very own house, with some of the best and most talented musicians playing music these days. This weekend, Steve Earle was the special guest, and that was a real treat as well. Also, the legendary Big Pink house is well within driving distance (only about 10 minutes from Levon’s) and worth going to the trouble of finding.
Again — if you’re a fan of The Band and Levon’s albums over the last couple of years, and if the opportunity ever presents itself for you to go, take it. You won’t be disappointed.
5,393 comments Add your comment
Lew
October 25th, 2010
9:23 am
don – It doesn’t matter if you change your name if you still keep talking like a fool.
DAP
October 25th, 2010
9:29 am
jed bounce back to what–that’s the question with mclouth: what is the mean? who is he? look at his numbers
good idea, look at his numbers. simply citing avg and RBI doesnt count.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
9:40 am
DAP- OK, let’s look at Nate’s numbers, though I’m not so sure why you think they will prove anything more than what we already know – That Nate was decent in Pittsburgh and not since coming to Atlanta. Anyway……..
162 Game Averages for His Career- Keep in mind this includes the good and the bad
.252 BA, .337 OBP, .438 SLG%, 101 K, 56BB, 19HR and 63 RBI
Now his Atlanta #’s (169 games)
.229 BA, .330 OBP, .379 SLG%, 127K, 80BB, 17 HR, 60RBI
So what do you have? How about a basically average MLB hitter? That’s what he is, but hasn’t really ben since coming over to the Braves. Can he revert to a norm or his career average? Sure hope so, but he hasn’t done it yet. If he does, it would be like getting a new player.
No wonder that Braves’ fans have their doubts, but it is seeming relatively certain that even should he revert to career averages, he is NOT the player he was in 08 – for whatever reason.
raleighbravefan
October 25th, 2010
9:51 am
Don (BB or whatever) – You MAROON! What makes you think nothing was said to Yunel to try to straighten him out. Every effort was made by Bobby, staff, and other players. What bobby won’t do is embarass a player in public, unless he is pushed beyond the limit. We shall see what a career Mr. Escobar has away from Bobby. You are AND IDIOT!
McFann O O – 6
October 25th, 2010
9:54 am
Lew Apparently the Muppets think so too. I never argue with Muppets.
Definitely. She does these Proactive skin care commercials…oh my lord. You thought the Progressive woman was annoying…? Well…And apparently she an explicit singer, too…
he leads the team in HR and RBI and that’s who you want your cleanup hitter to be.
I agree, but 77 RBI is kind of a pitiful number for the team lead…not being mean or anything. I mean, obviously he could have had more than that with 440 guys on base ahead of him all year…IDK, you know how I stand on this issue…
When Glaus wasuahitting like a clean up hitter, it was one thing with Mac lower in the order
Yeah, that woulda been nice…actually Glaus did pretty well on the couple days that he did bat cleanup. But then he kinda stopped hitting/playing, so that didn’t really matter anymore.
but until they get a better option
Exactly! And that’s what I want Wren to get—a better option!
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:03 am
McFann-Yeah, we’d rather see Mac with 90-100 RBI, but you go with your best and that’s what Mac’s performance was for the Braves. Yeah, it would be nice to have a bona fide clean up hitter but we didn’t (and don’t – yet). Mac’s still the man until they do.
That’s just the way it is.
David O'Brien
October 25th, 2010
10:04 am
McFann is correct: McLouth was fitted for contacts after 2009 season, did not get Lasik.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:05 am
THank God. No telling how bad he might have been if he couldn’t see.
Booby's Blunders
October 25th, 2010
10:12 am
raleigh, you are right – we WILL SEE what kind of shortstop Escobar is in the next several years. We will ALSO SEE what kind of shortstop the Braves have for the next few seasons (unless they pay big bucks for a star free agent or give up huge talent in a trade). We already know what kind of shortstop we had for the last part of last season.
Even if Escobar does not prove to be a Star, he does not have to be great to be significantly better than what the Braves may have.
Sugar coat it all you want, but this was a significant failure by Bobby Cox – It was not his style to confront players and make demands of players.
DAP
October 25th, 2010
10:12 am
lew though I’m not so sure why you think they will prove anything more than what we already know
not sure why you think i think that. im just telling jed to look at the numbers, and not cite avg and rbi and think he knows all about a player. those numbers alone dont tell you too much, especially weather a player had a good year.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:14 am
don – And you knopw this how? You are in the clubhouse on a regular basis?
Seems I’ve heard Chipper talking about how Bobby coiuyld raise hell with a player in private and even raised hell with Chipper on occasion.
As usual, your mouth keeps writing checks your brain can’t cash.
New day, same old.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:15 am
DAO-Well, I cited all his numbers and it didn’t look much better than what jed cited.
MikeInFl
October 25th, 2010
10:17 am
The major league average line for a centerfielder in 2010 was .261/.326/.405 (.731 OPS). That’s the number we should compare McLouth or any other potential centerfielder to.
Big hitting centerfielders don’t grow on trees. It’s a defense-first position that requires speed and athleticism. Only a handful of players combine that with big slugging skills.
People talk like Nate’s only had one good year. Not true. His career OPS is .775 (and that includes his ‘lost’ 2010 season). If he could achieve anything close to that, he’s more than adequate. No idea if he can. He was lost from day one of spring training in 2010.
btw, if we do go shopping for CF, I wouldn’t let the fact that Rasmus is left-handed get in the way. In 2010, his OPS against LHP was .810 (131 PA’s). Not as good as against RHP, but still way above league-average.
Booby's Blunders
October 25th, 2010
10:24 am
VaBrave – “Pitching is great, there isn’t many question marks”.
You could be right that the pitching could be great.
But there are significant question marks.
The only TWO Starters who would not seem to have at least some question mark are Hudson and Hanson.
That leaves 3 possible problem Starter spots.
JJ – True his knee injury may be a minor thing BUT JJ has not been dependable/effective like he was in his first year – since his SHOULDER injury — Big question as to whether he will come back and be effective next season.
Medlin – With that injury, don’t count on him at all for next season – and he may or may not ever come back and be effective after that injury – some do, some don’t.
Lowe – Granted he was great during the last part of the season – but he is old and will be a year older — Will we have the Lowe of September or the Lowe of much of the other part of the season or worse?
The young rookie pitchers that your mention are promising but unproven.
The Starting Pitching could be great or the Braves could have significant problems.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:26 am
Mike – IF being the operative word. Sine coming to Atlanta, he hasn’t come close to average numbers, Maybe he will get it together and I really think even his most staunch detractors hope for this – I know that I do. But…….he hasn’t yet and from what we’ve seen, there’s no wonder many are skeptical. Don’t tell me about what he did several years ago. Since being a Brave he has not been a good, or even an average, player – offensively OR defensively.
Them’s the cold, hard facts and nothing but.
DAP
October 25th, 2010
10:29 am
lew Well, I cited all his numbers and it didn’t look much better than what jed cited
thanks for that, though it still isnt the point.
bu while jed cited only avg and rbi and said nate had only one good season, i believe looking at his numbers as a whole you can say he had three good seasons, from 07-09 starting when he began playing full time up until this year. anyways, i sure hope he figures something out.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:34 am
DAP-Apparently, that point of view is prevalent in this country, not only as it relates to Nate, but the Govt. too.
We have this thing where we accept a performance and if it’s sub par, anything that we can find to replace it – no matter how bad that choice may be on it’;s own, it has tpo be a better option.
With Nate, we might not have signed someone who practiced witchcraft (though a shrine to Jobu might help at this point), but I absolutely love how now we keep hearing that “Nate’s not bad, he’s average”.
Condemnation by faint prise is what it looks like to me. Yeah, an average season WOULD be an improvement from Nate, but let’s call a spade a spade. He is what he is and that’s average at best. Lowered expectations, notwithstanding.
But yeah, I too, hope he figures it out.
MikeInFl
October 25th, 2010
10:35 am
Since being a Brave he has not been a good, or even an average, player – offensively OR defensively.
Lew, in 2009 he hit .257/.354/.419 (.773) with 11 HR as a Brave in right at 400 PA’s. That’s pretty decent for CF, and not a big dropoff from his career numbers, considering ATL is a bit less of a hitter’s park than PNC. And I don’t remember all the defensive lapses that we saw in 2010 being an issue in ‘09.
Anyway, I’m not trying to whitewash what happened this year. It was unacceptable. But I have hope, because I don’t think a lot of guys in their prime completely forget how to play the game. Something – mechanics, maybe, and then lost confidence? – got the best of him.
It’s up to Wren and Co. to figure out if he’s done, or can be rehabbed.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:37 am
Melky hits .255 and is run out of town on a rail. Nate hits .190 and we hope for the ,.255.
I would hope that there’s logic there, but I”m tired of looking for it.
DAP
October 25th, 2010
10:38 am
lew, haha, baseball is a little less serious than govt leaders, though i see your point. when it comes to our leaders, sadly we often have to choose the lesser of two idiots.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:38 am
Mike – Yeah and at Turner Field in 09, he hit .222. Whoopie.
David O'Brien
October 25th, 2010
10:38 am
We already know what kind of shortstop we had for the last part of last season. — Booby’s Blunders
Yes, and the Blue Jays know what kind of shortstop they had for the second half of the season: 60 gms, .275 avg, 7 doubles, 4 HRs, 16 RBI, .696 OPS
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:39 am
Mike – I have hope, too. However, it’s likely because with what he’s owed and his untradeability, he’ll be here regardless of whether or not hope exists.
DAP
October 25th, 2010
10:39 am
lew Melky hits .255 and is run out of town on a rail. Nate hits .190 and we hope for the ,.255.
i know you know there is much more to a hitter than batting average, which is why nate’s potential is more highly regarded, and melky is now on the scrap heap. of course, a guaranteed contract might have a little to do with it too, you think?
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:40 am
DOB-Yeah, but he never gave a scorer the finger in Toronto.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:41 am
DAP-Sure, it has everything to do with that contract. Just pointing out what I see, though.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:42 am
DAP-What scares me i that now people want Francoeur back. Lowered expectations, yet again.
MikeInFl
October 25th, 2010
10:44 am
I would hope that there’s logic there, but I”m tired of looking for it.
It’s there. You’ve just decided not to see it. Melky is a below average career hitter who can only play effectively at a position that values offense. Nate is an above-average career hitter who plays a premium defensive position.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:45 am
Mike-OK, if you insist.
Murph
October 25th, 2010
10:45 am
“there is much more to a hitter than batting average, which is why nate’s potential is more highly regarded”
Exactly what intangible qualities does Nate bring to the Braves that they couldn’t get from someone else? I’m not in the clubhouse, so I don’t know what kind of leader he is, but he doesn’t seem to be much of a voice for the team. He’s not doing the little things like moving guys over or putting himself on the line, crashing into a wall to make a catch.
I can’t predict what will happen next year any better than anyone else, but I have to think Matt Young would hit higher than .190 and do more in the field/on the bases than Nate.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:45 am
And plays that premium defensive position SO well, right?
Booby's Blunders
October 25th, 2010
10:48 am
Mr. O’Brien, I was not referring to what Escobar did last season but rather to his ability and his potential for the future.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:48 am
If any of y’all are unemployed, might I suggest Used Car Salesman for a change of career? Yeah, Nate’s only been driven to church on Sunday.
Snotboogie
October 25th, 2010
10:49 am
Melky hits .255 and is run out of town on a rail. Nate hits .190 and we hope for the ,.255.
I would hope that there’s logic there, but I”m tired of looking for it.
Two words – Guaranteed contract.
$6.5 M can make you hope for a lot of things.
DS1
October 25th, 2010
10:49 am
Nate McLouth, Matt Young, Melky Cabrera, Colby Rasmus, etc, etc, etc.
I understand that we want to figure it all out……..and today. (hey, I’m the same way) But until smilin’ Frank gets started, we are all kinda just whizzing in the wind.
Waiting sucks, huh!
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:49 am
Would have helped Yunel immensely if he had exhibited that potential and ability last year while in Atlanta.
DS1
October 25th, 2010
10:50 am
Nothing personal, but when I see a moniker like Booby’s Blunders, I immediately hit the scroll arrow.
DAP
October 25th, 2010
10:54 am
murph Exactly what intangible qualities does Nate bring to the Braves that they couldn’t get from someone else?
they arent intangibles, and its not compared to everyone else. that statement was made in comparison to melky cabrera. though nate had a horrible year in 2010, in his career, he blows melky out of the water when it comes to OBP and slugging. thats what i was referring to.
if matt young can get on base at a .380 rate in the majors, get his tail up here. id love to see him get a shot in spring training, but at the same time, i hope wren solidifies the outfield so much this offseason that there isnt space for young.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:55 am
DS1 – Slow day and boredom has set in. Nothing like And Idiotic post to liven up life, right?
LTBF
October 25th, 2010
10:55 am
Good morning all
Last night I see people on blog were talking about bringing back A Jones. I say no, he aged before his time because he did not stay in playing shape. I think he is mostly done. Jeff Francoeur on the other hand has lifetime batting aveof .268 and is not yet 30 yrs old. Our LFs hit .240 for season. Enough said.
Murph
October 25th, 2010
10:55 am
I agree 110% DAP. I’m holding out a lot of hope that McLouth/Young are in discussions for the 4th outfield slot, not for a starting role. It’s all up to Frank.
McFann O O – 6
October 25th, 2010
10:57 am
Lew That’s just the way it is.
Guess it’s just like my left arm—annoying as living purgatory, but just gotta live with it until the problem is solved: Doesn’t mean I hafta like it.
Thanks for the confirmation, DOB!
raleighbravefan
October 25th, 2010
10:57 am
Don ( the Maroon) – You are disreguarding the NEGATIVE impact Yunel had in the clubhouse – a DUMB mistake. Everyone in the clubhouse gave his replacement a standing O, and NO ONE expressed ANY regret with the trade.
I wondered who you would blame with Bobby gone. Now I know. You will still blame Bobby for FUTURE failure of the team. And you are still a MAROON!
GTSteve
October 25th, 2010
10:59 am
Lew, what would you do with the outfield if you were GM
Lew
October 25th, 2010
10:59 am
Well, at least I still have my signed Francoeur and Andruw drawings hanging in The Museum, since that’s who it seems many would prefer to have back in Atlanta. But hey, I have Blaine Boyer and Marcus Giles’ drawings, too
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:00 am
GTSteve- Quit and go to Tahiti for a few months.
DS1
October 25th, 2010
11:04 am
I have floated a theory on Escobar’s 2010 season a few times, and was wondering what you guys thought. Maybe DOB can chime in if he thinks there is any merit in this.
But after Yunel’s killer first day (2-5 w/ 5 RBI’s and a double) when it seemed that everybody’s attention was on the new kid, that from that point on he tanked. Did he get upset that he wasn’t being appreciated?
For the time he was in Atlanta, he never hit with any power, 12 doubles were all his extra base hits. And he really didn’t hit many singles until that stretch in June.
Ever game I was able to catch (not too many, I admit) he seemed to be swinging defensively. I was at the Ted on July 2nd, and though he got 1 hit that Friday evening, it didn’t look to me like he was swinging aggressively at all.
It’s a crime shame though. Think what might have been with Yunel’s glove work and play if he’d been able to put together the type of numbers he exhibited in his first 3 years. Would it have been enough to have kept us out of that 9 game losing streak? If he could have hit well in the leadoff or 6th slot??
Woulda shoulda coulda…….
GTSteve
October 25th, 2010
11:04 am
@Lew…sounds like a plan
DS1
October 25th, 2010
11:06 am
McFann
What’s wrong with your left wing?
LTBF
October 25th, 2010
11:07 am
As one Blogger said last nite he was tired of seeing Andrew smile after strikeing out. I am sure Andrew was not happy, it was just the way Andrew was, but I used to hate seeing it too. Very annoying.
DS1
October 25th, 2010
11:08 am
It’s so clearly obvious that we need help in LF and CF. Not brain surgery here. And folks actually are talking about Andruw and Jeff?
Very interesting…..
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:11 am
DS1-To be totally accurate, it’s not just Francoeur and Andruw. Coco Crsp has been frequently mentioned – again this year, it’s getting to be an annual event. Too bad Freel retired. Wonder if Baldelli is available?
DS1
October 25th, 2010
11:11 am
So McLouth went from no glasses or contacts to contacts last year? Is that the story?
Not being able to see well can change a lot of things, and possibly can get a person off their normal game.
The 2007/2008 version of Nate would be good to have for this last year. But he sure looked bad in LF in September.
This is why FW makes the really big bucks!
McFann O O – 6
October 25th, 2010
11:14 am
Wayne—
No really sure—might be some kind of circulatory thing, but it’s not life-threatening…I’ve had it for over two years. It just feels sore all the time, starting up at the shoulder. Whatever it is, the Ace bandage helps a ton. But it’s really annoying. Soon as we get some insurance thing figgered out, we’ll see what cann be done about it…but for now the Ace thingy works pretty well.
At least I’m right-handed!
DS1
October 25th, 2010
11:14 am
Lew
Only two or three days a week (for Baldelli, that it). That is sure some sort of weird ailment he has.
Where does Freel live? Do you think “Farney” might be able to talk him out of retirement? We could use some character on the team.
McFann O O – 6
October 25th, 2010
11:15 am
Wayne Not being able to see well can change a lot of things, and possibly can get a person off their normal game.
Yeah, boy…
Buckeyebrave
October 25th, 2010
11:17 am
You guys need to get off the Nate thing. No one wants him so we can’t move him. The best we can hope for is he returns to his average numbers. Besides if he plays good defense and can hit his 250 or 260 ec. He is adequate. The real need is a power bat in left, the end.
LTBF
October 25th, 2010
11:17 am
Sorry I miss spelled Andruws name.
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 25th, 2010
11:18 am
BB/ .don-key,
Many players with unlimited ability have failed to become great players for a variety of reasons injury, personal and yes even due to coaching. Yunels reason was because he is arrogant, selfish and a s__ head. If he turns into a star it’s because YUNEL not a coach finally realized this and corrected it.
Don
Get over it Bobby is gone. Let’s move on and have conversations about things that are relevant now. Like the Mark Teixeira trade or the JD Drew trade or the Dale Murphy trade.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:18 am
Thing is that Nate told DOB that the new contacts made everything look like it was in HD. Just never thought it meant “Hidden Dimension”.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:21 am
Yeah. Now if he only hit .260 OR played good defense, we’d be set.
Buckeyebrave
October 25th, 2010
11:21 am
We also could use Hinski back, as our lefthanded pinch hitter and maybe Jorge Cantu to be our right handed pinch hitter and 1st & 3rd base backup. It would be nice to get Kemp or Rasmus, even Jacoby Ellsbury might work.
LTBF
October 25th, 2010
11:21 am
Lew 11:11
If Jeff could hit his lifetime ave .268 not great but it would be a 28 point improvement over LF last year.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:23 am
LTBF-Dude, that’s the problem. Too many IFs and not enough For Sures.
Fleming
October 25th, 2010
11:23 am
LTBF – Jeff Francoeur on the other hand has lifetime batting aveof .268 and is not yet 30 yrs old.
He also has a lifetime OBP of .310.
LPad
October 25th, 2010
11:23 am
Wouldn’t be too sure about that CrazyTradeMan. Gaston said when they acquired Yunel that he had the worst hitting mechanics he seen in quite a while. So I imagine if/when he returns to his career norms or higher it will be because he corrected his mechnanical flaws. That seems like something he will work on with a coach.
LPad
October 25th, 2010
11:28 am
DOB – Compared to the numbers Gonzo put up in the second half .240/.291/.386/.678 Yunel’s numbers were better. Just like they’ll be better when both return to their career norms next year.
McFann O O – 6
October 25th, 2010
11:29 am
CraZyTraDeMaN Let’s move on and have conversations about things that are relevant now. Like the Mark Teixeira trade or the JD Drew trade or the Dale Murphy trade.
How ’bout the Babe Ruth trade…?
LTBF
October 25th, 2010
11:29 am
Fleming 11:23
True he does not wait for walks , but he could give us a long ball once in a while.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:31 am
LTBF-A long ball once in a while? OK.
Soph
October 25th, 2010
11:33 am
CraZy, we’re not the only ones.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/FoxCablevision-Dispute-May-nytimes-56894097.html?x=0
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 25th, 2010
11:35 am
LPad
If the Braves thought Yunel was worth keeping, the Braves would’ve kept him. Yunel was is a sh–it head period. Thats what got him traded. Well that and he wasn’t hitting. I could really care less what he does in the future it wasn’t going to happen here. If anything the trade may have been a wake-up call for him.
MikeInFl
October 25th, 2010
11:37 am
Francoeur always seems to start out hot with a new team. Did it with the Mets, did it with the Rangers.
The fact is, his full-season OPS+ for 2008 was 72 (horrible!), for 2009 was 93, and for 2010 was 85. He is a far-below average hitter for the last three years.
The last 2 years, he’s hit LHP pretty well, though. He’d be useful to someone in a platoon role if he’d accept it without whining. Hope it’s not for us, though. Been there, done that.
Fleming
October 25th, 2010
11:38 am
LTBF
You do realize that a lifetime OBP of .310 is only 12 points higher than the .298 OBP that Nate put up this year and Nate was horrible.
raleighbravefan
October 25th, 2010
11:39 am
Everyone keeps coming up with recycles, has-beens, and so-sos for outfield fix, then the same people crucify Wren for bringing in has beens and so-sos.
We are probably stuck with McLouth, so let’s hope he is at least almost adequete in CF next year. We do need a young hitter in LF. Finding one we can afford is the trick. We shall see what FW comes up with.
People, PLEASE get over Yunel, and move on. Don, just move on, period.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:41 am
Mike-Absoltely. And even playing in Texas, where the ball flies, Jeff still has only hit 23 HR and knocked in 95 since leaving Atlanta – in 214 games. That works out to a HR every 32 PA.
LTBF was right, a long ball once in a while. Wat he didn’t say was that there would be a lot of swings and misses in the interim.
I guess that The Ted could use the air conditioning.
David O'Brien
October 25th, 2010
11:42 am
Freddie Freeman’s left thumb still swollen and painful a week after spraining it in Ariz. Fall League, so he’ll be examined by team specialist today in Atlanta. It’s not uncommon at all for such an injury to linger a couple of weeks even with rest.
TennesseePaul
October 25th, 2010
11:42 am
Dude, that’s the problem. Too many IFs and not enough For Sures.
Pretty sure that will still be the case come opening day. Nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes.
For marginal improvements on the odds, still no luck. Wren already stated he will need to be “creative” to fill the outfield spots. “Creative” has already resulted in Ankiel, Glaus, Melky, McLouth…
The one perpetuated falsehood on this blog today is that McLouth’s 2009 for Atlanta was below average, barely average, terrible, worthless, awful, etc. Such statements are patently false.
raleighbravefan
October 25th, 2010
11:43 am
Lpad – Frenchy had bad mechanics, and wouldn’t listen to coaches, or anybody else. When they tried to get Andruw to hit the other way, he said he was a “pull hitter” and continued to slump. Some people are just stubborn. Do you think Yunel was listening to the coaches? I don’t know, but I don’t think so.
Fleming
October 25th, 2010
11:43 am
LTBF
Speaking of Frenchy’s hitting a long ball occasionally, his lifetime SLG is .425. Nate’s lifetime SLG os .438 so how is Frenchy better.
Lew
October 25th, 2010
11:44 am
Ten Paul- For sure.
Nothing certain but death, taxes and Albert Pujols.
abwright
October 25th, 2010
11:47 am
I had forgotten about McNate’s vision issues. That may have played a role in his early season struggles. Maybe he never really got things corrected or maybe he never adjusted to the contacts. If McNate returns to career averages, he’ll be fine in CF. If he’s lost it for good, then 2011 Braves are going to have a struggle.
However, the Braves problems extended far outside just McNate. LF and CF were black holes all year. SS went south at the end of the season. 1B was dreadful outside of May (Glaus) and late September (Lee).
Even if Braves figure out something in LF, I have a feeling that they will be inconsistent offensively in 2011. But, they’ll still probably win 90+ games with their pitching.
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 25th, 2010
11:47 am
Soph
I called Dish and told them to disconnect my service. They told me I would have to pay the $200 or whatever amount disconnection charge. So I told them that I wasn’t going to pay the charge or any future bill they send me. The Dish rep said they would disconnect my service if I didn’t pay my bill. So I said “I thought you said it was $200 bucks to have it disconnected?”. He said If I don’t pay it would be off. I told him that I wasn’t going to pay I didn’t care what agency they report to I wasn’t going to pay period until I had FX back. He gave me next month free! I told the guy that at the end of next month if FX still wasn’t available I was going to call back about the same thing. I’m not paying them until I get the full advertised plan I signed up for.
abwright
October 25th, 2010
11:50 am
I thought Francouer was under contract with Texas for the next couple of arb years. Ya’ll don’t seriously think that the Rangers will non-tender Frenchy after the WS? (There was sarcasm dripping off that statement if you missed it.)
RemoW
October 25th, 2010
11:52 am
Interesting article about the Yankees losing. (Which makes most of us happy.) But the writer talks about the post season and how really successful teams are at the fate of the short series. Some of this can be used to view the 14 year run by the Braves. Well worth the time to read.
http://itsaboutthemoney.net/archives/2010/10/25/reacting-rationally-to-losing/
MikeInFl
October 25th, 2010
11:52 am
Jeff Francouer’s Year-by-Year SLG %:
2005 – .549
2006 – .449
2007 – .444
2008 – .359
2009 – .423
2010 – .383
It’s not a straight line, but pretty close. And not in the right direction.
Ease™ in Sandy Springs
October 25th, 2010
11:53 am
Crazy – Are you under contract? We are going to switch anyway to Direct just cause the deals are way better and after the freebies run dry, we will still be paying the same thing only with more channels…
Travis
October 25th, 2010
11:53 am
If not mistaken, Baylor got dumped as he Rockies hitting coach. He did some good things with the Braves accordingy to some Chipper quotes. He might not be a long term type guy with his asperations to be a manager again. That might be ok cause I really believe Chipper will be in the dugout as a hitting coach in the forseable future. Still can’t understand why TP is still around unless Fredi just wants his own guy as the hitting instructor. Even if Nate improves under someone new, his days as a Braves probably won’t extend past this next season. And we thought Kelly Johnson was streaky.
abwright
October 25th, 2010
11:53 am
You have to pay Dish Network so that you can stop paying them? That can’t possible be legal!
I’m glad to be hearing about all these Dish Network horror stories. I’m not a big fan of Directv due to all their recent changes, but dayum! No way I would hook up with Dish.
Fleming
October 25th, 2010
11:55 am
But MikeInFl, he has a .268 lifetime BA. (Sarcasm)
abwright
October 25th, 2010
11:55 am
McNate’s not streaky! He has been consistently bad with the Braves.
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 25th, 2010
12:00 pm
Ease™
I would already have a DirecTV dish on the house if it wasn’t for the contract. I’m switching as soon as I get out of this contract. I’ve been wanting MLB network for a while now Dish refuses to offer it.
dpelfrey
October 25th, 2010
12:03 pm
Why are we talking about Escobar. It’s over and done with. The players applauded when Gonzo walked in the clubhouse. Enough said.
I think we’ll see a lot more names become available in the next few weeks as teams evaluate their needs. I’m anxiously awaiting what will happen.
Doc Holiday
October 25th, 2010
12:06 pm
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/
Top of the page…….examining the teams that need OF help and what their options are.
GTSteve
October 25th, 2010
12:09 pm
@Crazy, you will love Direct TV
RHR
October 25th, 2010
12:10 pm
i’m gonna have to stop reading here if the ‘bring back frenchy!’ cries don’t subside soon. i can’t take it any more. frenchy IS here…his name is nate mclouth. we don’t need 2.
Lollygagger
October 25th, 2010
12:11 pm
I see we’ve moved on from Braun, Kemp and Rasmus…. only to get pulled back into Andruw, Escobar and Frenchy. Yikes. DOB, please come in and save us with a nugget of new information!
Lollygagger
October 25th, 2010
12:12 pm
And here comes the Kelly Johnson chatter in 3, 2, …
CraZyTraDeMaN
October 25th, 2010
12:13 pm
RHR
It’s clear to all braves country that if Yunel and Frenchy were still here we’d still be playing!!!
Daybed Wagmoe
October 25th, 2010
12:17 pm
If I can make a music recommendation: this weekend some friends and I went up to Woodstock, NY and caught the Midnight Ramble at Levon Helm’s barn. If you’re ever up in upstate NY for a weekend and can make it over to Levon’s, it’s completely worth the price of admission and whatever other expenses you might have to bear (rental car, hotel, etc). It’s a concert for about 225 people in Levon’s very own house, with some of the best and most talented musicians playing music these days. This weekend, Steve Earle was the special guest, and that was a real treat as well. Also, the legendary Big Pink house is well within driving distance (only about 10 minutes from Levon’s) and worth going to the trouble of finding.
Again — if you’re a fan of The Band and Levon’s albums over the last couple of years, and if the opportunity ever presents itself for you to go, take it. You won’t be disappointed.